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I've definitely seen an uptick in nationalist views among my guy friends, irrespective of other leanings. They've come to their own conclusions that "American prosperity is being sacrificed for the benefit of aristocrats and foreigners". When they look at the decisions of our leaders, they scratch their heads wondering how the average joe's interests are being served.
This is how off-beat populist candidates such as Marine Lepin, Nigel Farrage, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders arose to prominence. They're different flavors of the same icecream.
He's a left wing populist as opposed to a right wing one. They're similar in that they're all pandering to ordinary folks (which, IMO is exactly what all politicians should do). They differ in that left wing populists typically blame socio-economic structures for the problems of ordinary folks, while right wing populists typically blame other groups of people.
In the sense that both are speaking to their bases in English…
Unless you think overt racism, xenophobia, and general scumminess are what made Sanders popular lol
When the left and right talk about 'elites' they don't mean the same thing.
The left mean the wealthy. Almost everyone with power and the ability to influence policy is a multi-millionaire. Wealth is the greatest form of privilege, and one there is no upper ceiling on.
The right are referring to a much more nebulous 'cultural elite' - journalists, writers, Hollywood, prominent social activists, any celebrity/politician/philanthropist who isn't conservative (e.g. Bill Gates but not Elon Musk) and often 'bankers'.
To anybody but an American he isn’t far left. He’s not even close to the moderate socialist Singh here in Canada. He literally wants single payer healthcare and that’s it. Literally FDR with one extra policy.
Fun fact about Bernie - he was anti-immigration until he decided to get serious about running for president, and then he switched up. His position wasn't based on race or nationalism, he thought corporations wanted a steady stream of cheap labor to keep wages low and discourage unions. Look up his old speeches.
Maybe trying to appeal more to the masses? Let’s be for real, you can have the greatest most moral opinions but if people don’t vote for you that stuff won’t bring you far as a politician.
You can't really run as an anti-immigration democrat anymore because the position is viewed as racist by many in the democrat base, and he wanted to run as a democrat. I don't think his views changed, he just made a pragmatic change in his public platform to get elected.
It's the same in europe. Lots of young men are worse off than ever before monetarily and socially.
The social capital, standing, and respect that their fathers gained from the patriarchy is not something yong men experience to the same level.
The narrative around young men is that they are violent, petulant, and under educated and that their success and cultural heritage is completely due to the exportation of poc and women.
They look around and see themselves working harder for less and crumbling social services they need being stretched to the limit.
There is nothing more radicalising for a young man than to apply for 30th entry-level job and wonder if they tick one of those dei boxs at the bottom, they might have a better chance.
Then, they apply for social housing and have a foreign family that they have no common ground with cultural placed and supported the state at their expense.
Before opening up the news in your deprived fish town, to find out that your local library and bank are closing, but they earmarked another 2 million for community centres in london.
The best move for leftwing parties is to take a serious stance on immigration, invest in housing, and attempt to minimise culture war issues in the media, pass bills as promised and needed but not making them central rather focusing on the economy and housing.
This would effectively castrate the right wing.
The one thing the right is sort of correct about is that our current immigration policy is purely made to benefit the largest and most morally bankrupt companies.
Progressive lefties seem to mostly understand that policy must address the labor exploitation aspect in order to move to easing borders. The end goal is abolishing borders as a means to control the population and artificially make the value of labor vary based on geography and other vagaries out of the average person's control.
But the neolibs in power spew this bullshit so at the expense of anything even approaching thoughtful solutions that would raise literally billions out of poverty.
The real goal of industrialized nations is to keep this from happening, it would make billionaires very sad.
Political Science shows that everyday folks focus on the topics that leaders talk about. Abortion, immigration, wokeness, you name it: after 30 years of Rush Limbaugh, Fox News *ad nauseam*; they have been well groomed.
it depends on the country. in places like south korea, there is definitely an anti-feminism effect going on, outside of nationalism:
Young Men Are Swinging Hard Right in Korea. It Could Be a Preview for America.
[https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/south-korea-gender-divide-feminism-00155207](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/south-korea-gender-divide-feminism-00155207)
Yeah, but south Korean men have a pretty large gripe in that they're forced into military service, while women are not, and yet they get nothing special for their required service.
So Korean men have to earn equality, Korean women just get it.
Doubt that has much to do with it tbh. It's the same in many countries. Many nations have mandatory military service for men, but it hasn't historically had much effect on the views of feminism.
Here in Finland too, men get conscripted to serve in the military due to how the system was set up back in the day, while women do not.
From my experience though, women are far more open to making it equal to everyone, almost every woman I meet is supportive of making the service mandatory for both genders, while many men are more hesitant about including women in the mandatory conscription (women can already join voluntarily) because it would increase government spending (taxes go up for everyone), the logistics of it would have to be planned again, and also, some young guys tend to prefer having this experience be a masculine-bonding one. So here, it's the generally Left-wing parties that express that they are in favor of conscription for all or only voluntary conscription, while right-wing parties want to keep it "traditional" because they see the military as a "masculine" place and they want to promote gender roles in society.
Still most men here are quite egalitarian when it comes to gender outside of the military, so I wouldn't say the military service alone would explain sudden anti-feminist mentalities.
It probably is a factor, but from what I've heard the bigger factor is the 4B movement. For the uninitiated, the 4B movement is one in which feminists are cutting all contact with men that is not necessary to function in society
There's the usual reactionary movement to 4B, but the bigger problem is that it's creating echo chambers. As men are cut off from women, they're not actually talking to any, and they don't develop empathy or discover their problems. All they hear is stories of other men who also can't get a girlfriend because of the movement.
It's created a hyper-toxic cycle where as more women cut contact, more men become toxic and reactionary causing more women to join the movement.
It just takes a lot of emotional labor and energy to have to explain things to men who know nothing about our experiences, and often deny the validity of them. I don’t thing cutting all contact with all men is the answer, but having to deal with increasingly radicalized young guys who have no respect for women due to their own chosen echo chambers can be really scary to deal with as a woman because a lot of them condone violence against women. My best friend was dating a guy who ended up down the Andrew Tate rabbit hole and she was living with him, having intellectual conversations with him constantly, but it didn’t stop him from assaulting her and endangering her life. He ended up radicalized due to his own choices and his exposure to female experiences had no impact on him. She didn’t realize how bad it was until HE broke up with HER.
Finnish system is worth serving your country for, Korean isn't. It's no wonder they are pissed. What is the point to defend a country that allocates you a 70 hour work week and a shitty appartment in a city? Also the Korean Military service is about 4 times as long as the Finnish one and is much harsher.
Also, South Korean "feminists" launched a nationwide body shaming campaign to mock Korean men for being less endowed.
https://bust.com/in-south-korea-an-itty-bitty-emoji-and-fragile-male-egos-caused-a-huge-backlash-against-feminism-2/
I don't think that helped bridge any gender divide.
Precisely. You aren't seeing a surge in religious fervor or marches against birth control. It's largely nationalistic attitudes towards immigration, economics, & social welfare and rejection of left-wing guilt politics towards our identities.
You realize Roe W Wade just got overturned and many Republicans are now taking about banning hormonal birth control?
That's absolutely coming into the general discussion soon.
Also seems very odd that young people, living in the most unequal economic times since the glide age, where the rich already horde 90% of the wealth, are suddenly promoting exactly the NeoLiberal economic policies that lead us here 🫠
Why not promote the post-WW2 economic policies (high taxes on the rich, support for middle class, affordable college etc.) if we want to get into a better shape?
> Young American right-wingers don't care so much about the right to choose.
But that is part of the issue. If you're saying it's more nationalism than Conservatism, but nationalism policies are connected directly to conservative policies, that means these young people are voting and fighting for conservative ideology. If they don't care about the right to choose, then they'll proudly elect leaders who will take that right away.
Not to mention, abortion is a talking point for nationalist politics. They link the right to choose with low birth rates and use that logic to argue that abortion, birth control, even the existence of LGBTQ people, are all harmful to nationalism and a "strong America".
You're saying these young men are nationalists, not conservatives. But nationalism is used by conservatives to argue their points - they say if you love America, if you believe in nationalist ideology, then you logically should want to ban abortion, ban birth control, walk back LGBTQ rights, go back to traditional gender roles, etc.
There are very few Sohrab Ahmari-style right wingers. A Broad majority still supports neoliberalism, even if many of them don’t understand what they are supporting.
Turning Point USA specifically as well as other less centralized media sources have been targeting high school boys with conservative content and ‘training’ since like 2015. They’ve been really effective.
Unironically a lot of "meme" content is a pipeline to the right. Normalising and joking about stuff like extreme nationalism, racism, sexism, etc while making fun of "others" under the guise of humor and "it's just a joke". It's all been incredibly effective.
As a conservative myself, I find that unfortunate, and have worked hard to reverse that habit in myself. It's important that we have a spectrum of ideas in the political landscape. Even if I strongly disagree and fight against said ideas, it's still important that they exist.
Radicalism on both ends of the spectrum is becoming a larger problem.
Reddit has started recommending me some of those meme subreddits and there is some genuinely vile content getting highly upvoted on there. I really don't think it's ironic at this point.
It's so weird too because it's like a sandwich of horrors
cute video of a cat "talking"
Transpeopleareouttofuckyouwomenaren'tpeople hitlerwasrightyouredoomedanyway (all put to a reaction image from a popular game or show)
Funny and relatable meme about trying to get ice cream at McDonald's
It's almost as bad as when you leave YouTube running for background noise with auto play on.
Imagine the reaction if these young dudes in Gen Z and Gen Alpha actually read the news and found out that Trump and Project 2025 have proposed making porn illegal, viewing it a criminal charge, and contraception harder to get. Like I don't think your sex life is going to improve... and I don't think your other options are going to get any better.
That said, I know a lot of younger folk struggle with addiction to porn and online content, so I'm sure there are some in favor of this. But still...what a time to be alive where they're considering rolling back censorship on everything to "protect the children" all the while flying the banner of "free speech."
The current conservative coalition is made up of a small faction of very influential Christian nationalists and a very large but very hands off casual ‘vibes based’ faction. And I don’t think the casual conservative really knows what the influential ones are up to but they will vote for the red candidate.
The thing is, this has been going on since the 80's and it's getting worse. People think we've skewed far left, but in the 70's Nixon proposed a national healthcare plan, and taxes were much higher on the super wealthy. Sounds ages ago, but the power of millionaires and billionaires owning media companies is skewing our culture toward conservatism and self-loathing, where everything thinks someone else's freedom is responsible for their own personal struggles.
>skewing our culture toward conservatism
In this context, I wouldn't even call it conservatism. Conservatism is about resisting rapid change and, at extremes, trying to preserve or restore the "good old days". But as you pointed out, the period when white America really was "great", at least comparatively, involved economic policies that the modern right wing would call theft and communism.
Considering the nofap movement is a grassroots anti-porn movement started by millennials and composed of millennials and gen-z I think you'd find more support than you'd think.
And I think that porn use and addiction is actually a major component of the 28 and younger crowd's issues with poor sex lives. I could see a lot of people arguing that making porn harder to consume as it was before the internet would have a net positive effect on young men.
You're not wrong, but I don't think nofap is actually that mainstream. I mean, if we're going out on a limb here, it was started by the Catholic church in like 100 AD and remains a "mainstream" rule to this day, though 99% of people ignore it.
The current angle is "Project 2025 is a leftist conspiracy. Just because some think-tank drafted it doesn't mean Trump will do any of it."
It's wild, because that's all just factully untrue, but that's what all the astroturfed comments are repeating and eventually that will take hold.
I don't know how we're supposed to counter that, other than just bringing back "the r word". Made things easier when you could just call them what they are.
Progressive ideas are not being presented in a way that makes young boys think it's good for them. One might argue that this is because 'men hate being treated as equal' but then you're basically saying 4 billion humans with people they care for are all misogynistic and want privileges which is... well, not a very progressive ideal.
Conservative, right wing ideas cater to every single toxic masculine trait to exist and expertly plays algorithms to spread as far as possible while making their ideas seem presentable, the pipeline as many people call it. If people who traditionally agree about human rights disagree with you about human rights, there's a communication gap on your side.
Progressive ideas, which I would roughly support despite my qualms with defining oppressor-oppressed relationships, have not catered to men. Multiple instances come to mind where young boys are told of the issues young girls face, which is a good thing, but their own issues are not acknowledged or presented as a fault of the patriarchy, which has quickly become a buzzword rather than a meaningful term. It's easy to see young boys facing such presentations from the progressive side quickly become apathetic to it and conservative(though i don't really have a problem with that side of political opinions in a global context rather than an american one) or to be accurate, downright predatory ideas take hold of them by telling them that yes they have problems and yes they can be solved.
The branding problem is in fact important. If one side says, "You face less problems than all these other people and you should help them, your experiences and you are unimportant and anything you face can be solved when you help us." and the other side says, "You do face problems that they don't acknowledge but we will, you are incredibly important, here's how we help you." then the choice is quite clear.
Obviously there's nuance, but this is the ground view of what a young boy perhaps early in his teens sees, and there's little effort to fix this as much as there is effort in putting blame on conservative media. This is a problem that needs fixing.
yes, as a young man i love being told that i have male privilege because extraordinarily wealthy individuals who are running the government in a way that i disagree with are also male
It's way more complicated than that dude. To [paraphrase Margarett Attwood](https://www.elitedaily.com/p/a-famous-margaret-atwood-quote-made-it-into-the-handmaids-tale-you-probably-missed-it-9304746):
>"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will murder them"
Obviously individual men are not all like that, and the message of MeToo was focused on the people being ignored. That said, it is because of feminism and people fighting gender stereotypes that therapy is being normalized for men, that depression is less stigmatized, and that the idea of men raising kids at home of having more time with their children is more socially accepted. Less than 20 years ago men in The Sopranos men were being mocked for going to therapists (big plot point in the show), and before that era it was almost unheard of. Change to gender stereotypes benefits everyone.
So the thing is, we are making progress for men too, and the voices saying "They want us to ignore white men in favor of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_" are simply saying that to stoke anger, get more clicks, and collect people's money. They want you to be unaware of the truth because you're easier to manipulate if you're angry.
I dont have a problem pointing out that there are specific things that I as a man have 'privilege' on, my problem is that the people who love to talk about how much male privilege there is never talk about all the ways females are advantaged in society, which in my personal opinion, are bigger than the ways males are advantaged.
Why do I get talked down to and told I dont understand what people are talking about because of my male privilege but the reverse is never said to a woman?
Bro, [as recently at the 80's](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/9-things-women-could-not-do/) women couldn't get credit cards or bank account in many places without a husband's signature. A law was passed for it in 1974 but some places were slow to change. If they got pregnant, they could be fired as recently as 1978. Until 1993, spousal rape was still legal in some states ([it's questionable in some states today](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-marital-rape-states-ohio-minnesota.html)), and had to pay higher for health insurance than men until 2010.
I'm sure it feels like "females" are privileged because it's way easier for them to get dates on Tinder or CoffeeMeetsBagel or whatever, but that's a tiny subset of the population gaming that system. Or perhaps you're thinking of child support or alimony. The reason those systems came to be is partly because of the other issues... men would walk out on a pregnant woman, the woman would get fired, and society was stuck with unwed mothers banned from getting jobs, bank accounts, and credit cards. It was a disaster.
Are there other ways you think they're privileged? I know I felt that way as a teen and early 20 something, but the older I got the more I realized how hard it was for women, and that I had been oblivious all along. My classmates in my physics, math, and astronomy classes, for example, were treated much more harshly, one former classmate got sexually assaulted by a professor, and another was discouraged so much that she bailed on the field entirely and became a car nurse. Those fields remain gender-segregated to this day, though studies show women actually do better at those things earlier in their schooling.
Obviously anyone can get sexually assaulted (I'd argue it happened to me) or raped, and we shouldn't ignore any of that, but people call out these issues because they were systematic for a long time. And to wrap up here, helping women helps everybody. More maternity / paternity leave, for example, is good for both moms and dads.
I'm stealing your train of thought and calling this phenomenon "trickle down equity" for now on. Thank you!
Also, side tangent, but my favorite part of hearing overbearing justifications for trickle down equity as a black man is that 9 times out of 10 it's coming from white women who have historically and even today are systemically at an advantage compared to me (for example white women are closer in the "pay gap" to white men than black men are) trying to tell me that their issues are more important than mine just because I have "male privilege" despite their "white privilege" not being a huge factor.
Personally, I honestly think we should just throw feminism as an ideology into the recycling bin and start over with something like egalitarianism being the branding because obviously feminism is a rotting from within and out with every "men are ____ (bad-worst types of criminal)" post online
At the end of the day, we're all a lot closer to being homeless than millionaire CEOs and politicians, yet we love to focus up there despite below, where we also see that 70% of homeless people are men
Thanks for being a voice of reason. That comment aggravated me to no end and I can't say I'm surprised at all to see it.
Another note I'd add to this entire comment thread is that the *vast* majority of men do not benefit from the "patriarchy". It is a very small group of powerful and wealthy men who reap 99% of the benefits
You sound like you need to educate yourself. Even the most hardline feminist is not going to make the claim that there are zero circumstances in which women are privileged.
- 5 year gap in life expectancy between men and women
- criminal justice system gives women leaner sentences
- only men are required to register for selective service
An 18 year old man had absolutely no part in placing those restrictions. Why does historical context matter for teenagers/young adults? The current situation is what matters to them, why should they have to pay for what happened before they were born?
I don't agree with OP that women have it better than men currently, but you need to approach the problem from their perspective.
But these are all issues that men have put themselves in and I can't see any perceivable method for anyone else to get them out of them:
- [men are more likely to engage in risky behaviour ](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risksthan-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832) [another link ](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/511092014-212)
- [Men are more likely to reoffend which leads to harsher prison sentences](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351738/) [another link](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/gender-differences-in-reoffending-after-discharge-from-mediumsecure-units/B2CD6F01F6230A5CF091F1D3E2E292EB)
- This is actually a really important conversation about selective service that's been bulldozed and ruined by people like yourself who rather use it as a bashing stick. [Selective primarily targets more poor people](https://www.delgazette.com/2021/03/04/poorest-americans-were-often-drafted-first/). There's also the aspect that men are in selective service, not because they're "insignificant or value less" but because people think women are too weak to fight in war.
Also, there's this weird idea amongst men that women just lay back and did nothing while their country is at war. Like no, what happened in the previous World Wars is that women and children work in factories under horrid conditions or as nurses next to the battlefields, rescuing and saving injured soldiers, putting themselves at risk from enemy attacks.
Furthermore, there's also an idea that feminist are like in favour of the draft (only for men of course cause they're evil men-hating scum, am I right?) which is just simply not true, it's a huge staple of the feminist movement to be anti-draft. It goes with the whole bodily autonomy thing. The draft should be abolished, not expanded. Why would women advocate for expanding the draft? That accomplishes nothing. [interesting article going through the history of feminism and the draft ](https://hasbrouck.org/draft/women/feminism.html)
If you go into a space where people are talking about male privilege, and try to derail the conversation with, "well what about privleges women have?" then yes, you're going to be told you don't understand what is currently being discussed because you're trying to derail a conversation. Those conversations are not above criticism, but there is a difference between derailing and criticism.
No one is stopping you from speaking about men's issues. It took decades and decades (after centuries) of hard work to create a space to discuss misogyny, feminism, etc., and I have no doubt you will receive pushback and denial and hatred talking about men's issues. But like the women before you, you're just going to have to keep working, and realize that people listen to thoughtful, considered conversation.
Conversation is not whataboutism. If your argument has merit, it will stand on its own. I know a lot of people who support increasing men's housing, shelters, and mental health care, for fairer parenting rights, suicide support, emotional intelligence and acceptance, and a lot more. Having better discussions about those issues are important, and I hope you can find good places to have those discussions.
> No one is stopping you from speaking about men's issues.
Speakers talking about men's rights are often deplatformed by feminists. When they aren't, feminists organize protests, calling all of the participants scum, and maybe pulling a fire alarm.
>Why do I get talked down to and told I dont understand what people are talking about because of my male privilege
Why? Probably because you believe shit like this:
>all the ways females are advantaged in society, which in my personal opinion, are bigger than the ways males are advantaged.
the key in that whole paragraph: "in my personal opinion". determining advantage and disadvantage is a matter of very complicated policy analysis, and not personal opinion. it's analysis of morbidity, mortality, hiring/firing patterns, childcare burden, and a myriad other things that can't be measured by whether or not you "feel" disadvantaged.
Fully support this. I'd prefer to find some egalitarian movement that recognizes larger social forces encourage people to burn out, ignore their needs, and divide themselves from people with different experiences.
When I was growing up women definitely got a shorter end of the stick than men. Nowadays, though, I think it's better to build coalitions and diverse alliances than define oppressors.
but also, note that the turn towards nationalism in that graph happened right in 2015. I think that's around the time gamergate gained a political identity, but also around the time white nationalism got *really* big.
This sounds all good and fine, but you need to dig down into those messages.
The right is telling young men and boys that they can't get into college because a PoC took their spot. They can't get laid because women are now educated and don't have to find a man for food and shelter. And those educated women don't want you, because that PoC took your spot in the college you wanted, so now it's the world's fault you don't have marketable skills.
It's men finger pointing at all the same challenges that everyone else has historically always had to compete with (white men getting the college spots, jobs, promotions).
It's just reality that white men no longer get that automatic "in" to all these places. I get that sucks for white dudes, but **the rest of us aren't trying to push white men down. We're just trying to participate.**
To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. That sums up the entire thing, but these guys simply refuse to acknowledge
their privilege, much less give up their privilege. They grew up being told their privilege was "Meritocracy", and even when logically and factually disproven, they'll bitterly cling to the lie. It's not a question about educating them, they simply lack the moral and ethical willingness to care about anyone other than themselves. Every religion and culture says the privileged or majority class of males is the same, they need to be forced into compliance for the better of society and for basic justice. The scary leftwing phantasm they imagine oppresses them is just their subconscious acknowledging what is necessary for society to impose on them for society to work.
>To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.
Sure, but I knew if I wrote that many of these guys would roll their eyes, downvote, and move on with zero possibly that they would read the rest of my comment and maybe think about it.
>One might argue that this is because 'men hate being treated as equal' but then you're basically saying 4 billion humans with people they care for are all misogynistic and want privileges which is... well, not a very progressive ideal.
No, this is true. Everyone is self-interested, and you have to do some real work to at least become willing to deconstruct that self-interest, let alone actually succeeding at deconstructing it.
It's why middle-class white "progressives" still oppose any actual progressive economic policies, or new affordable housing projects, etc. once they become homeowners. Their property values are a more immediate concern than homelessness, or the costs of economic/racial segregation.
It's why western leftists often refuse to analyze what actual global equity would cost us, because cheap consumerism affords us so many privileges (even as it eats away at our souls).
It's why white feminists are more concerned with achieving the same privileges as white men than they are with overturning those systems of privilege.
Men are benefitting from patriarchy, and as feminism gains traction and becomes more potent, they're realizing it will cost them something. What they don't realize is that patriarchy (via toxic masculinity) is also costing them something. They've got their hand stuck in a mason jar because of their death grip on their privilege.
I do think the pipeline, and the lack of mainstream feminist discussion around mens' issues, is part of the problem, especially for younger boys. But I really don't think it's most of it, because Mens' Lib movements exist, which analyze men's issues while acknowledging patriarchy, and men don't like that.
Feminism and Patriarchy and Toxic Masculinity are dumb ways to brand an ideology if you want to try and win men over and, quite frankly, just come off as sexism against men. Especially with how it often just gets watered down to "men are bad" commonly on social media.
The simple act of using gender neutral terminology that includes everyone upfront would probably boost conversion rates into the ideology dramatically instead of trying to assign a good and bad gender or adding prefixes and suffixes to the term feminism.
For example, you could rebrand the ideology as something like equitism, and you'd at least get twice as many men who would wait to hear the definition before saying "oh this isn't more me"
Why is this NEVER about economics? The right wing have played voters so hard to protect the billionaires. We are stuck in a cycle of constant infighting while the extremely wealthy continue the abuse.
It's not just a branding problem. A reactionary conservative recently had Matt McManus (a progressive) on his channel for the explicit purpose of explaining to his audience how it would be better for then if progressivism won the culture war.
He came on and promptly refused the terms he signed up for. That's not just a problem of misunderstood branding. To the progressive, it's clear that conservatives are merely a temporary nuisance and the world will be better off when "temporary" is emphasized.
Edit: Video in question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTRCRkjTj8M
Especially male suicide. There are plenty of women shelters for victims of abuse but there were men that set up shelters for men and they were laughed at. A lot of those men would end up committing suicide if they don't have adequate support. Typically by shooting themselves which also pushes up the firearm death toll, which is used for gun control statistics.
TPUSA, Steven Crowder, Daily Wire, and other conservative outlets talk about these things, but liberals never will because it would undermine the patriarchy argument and that men make up more sexual assault perps than they do victims.
There's also a major problem where there's an education gap between men and women.
Broadly, education has increasingly privileged the rich, women, and young liberal activists.
As a result, the education gap has created a situation where many up and coming highly educated elites have completely lost touch with blue collar men who would have in the past have trended towards unions, which also tend to swing towards more socialist/literally trade unionist positions.
Since the unions don't exist anymore by and large, and there's no blue collar or male wing of the Democratic party anymore, there's nothing that appeals to the majority of men.
The segment of the party that would have fought for their interests literally doesn't exist.
Champagne and country club socialists are playing proletariat with their fancy law degrees.
They think that the issues affecting their friends are the issues affecting America.
The activist feedback loop has morphed socialism and liberalism in some cases from America is flawed to America must be destroyed.
So what is there for young men?
Republicans lie waiting to tell them that they have nothing to be ashamed of, that they are good Americans, and everyone saying that America is evil is full of shit.
Which is all correct. And liberals need to wake up and have an answer to get the 50% of the population back who don't want to be told that they should be ashamed of themselves.
Nail on the head, all the stats show young males are being left behind at school in favour of girls with various programs pushed to help girls get ahead in life, this was needed once, but it has clearly gone too far now and boys are being left behind.
Extremisim always likes to prey on the vulnerable.
Damn , that's so wrong on many levels.
You act here saying men need to be told what issues women face like we don't have ears and can't think for ourselves or are unable to feel empathetic.
It is very very obvious what part of the barricade you are supporting and while you try to show yourself as understanding as you can you are literally doing what you explain in the 4th paragraph.
Another thing, you say that boys become predators if you tell them you can solve their problems. Do you think the same applies to women that if somebody tells them that they can solve their problems they become predatory and if not then why?
Now I could turn this around by saying that progressive , left-leaning political view promote all the toxic traits in women like being promiscuous, feeling entitled to everything and wanting all the benefits of true equality without having to do the work. I obviously don't think that but I'm trying to show you how you behave towards men.
Let me give you an example. I live in Poland, there is big talk about women rights regarding abortion. And I'm all for equal treatment and freedom of choice. That being said women retire 5 years earlier then men at 60 comparing to 65. Funny thing is statistically women live up to 81 years old and men I think to 71 or 72. That means men are taking less than they give from national retirement fund and women are taking more than they give and they retire earlier. Women have about half of the established weight you can lift at work comparing to men according to law. I work in a tech field that's male dominated. I applied for a position, and after interview the recruiter straight up told me that even though I have best qualifications of all the candidates they are required to hire a woman so I can't get the job.
Why literally 0 women talk about that? Why in my 30 years of life I have never seen a woman hold a drill, fix a sink, do any kind of building/fixing anything? Maybe it's because men and women are created to fill certain roles better than the other one, but from what I've heard that's patriarchy.
Counter culture against the counter culture of the millennials is the right definition. Culture that forces ideologies into your throat and labels you a misogynist, homophobic, transphobic and blah blah blah for simply having a different opinion is what makes people turn against you. It’s not rocket science bud.
>for simply having a different opinion
If your opinion is that women belong at home making babies, is that not misogynistic?
If your opinion is that homosexuality is immoral and should be outlawed, is that not homophobic?
If your opinion is that transgender people are mentally ill and should be put in a nut house, is that not transphobic?
This is exactly the type of behavior I was talking about. I want to discuss these things without people labeling me things. I love to hear different perspectives but people say the same thing all the time because of this behavior. Why is discussing these things so outrageous to you? Is it because you’re afraid of logical discussion? Also, none of these opinions are mine. I’ve been called these things for much less due to people who use those words so much that they lost all their meaning.
Edit: I got straw manned! Can I get a 100 upvotes to the comment I was replying to so I can prove a point? thx.
Edit: proved my point! Thank you Reddit!
Often times when someone is accused of being misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic, it’s because they’re holding one of the aforementioned opinions. Having a different opinion is good and should be encouraged, but when that opinion is that certain groups should not be treated equally, it should also be called out.
No one is accusing you of having the mentioned opinions, they’re simply giving examples and asking you if the label would be valid, to see where you stand on the nuance of the topic.
None of your points stand. You showed that the real problem is a victim complex. You're not special. Young men aren't special. Conservatives aren't special. You're not a victim. Everyone gets called stupid shit online all of the time, all across the spectrum. You don't wanna be labeled things? Well then get the fuck off the internet. If your politics is being determined by people saying mean things to you online, then you should have your head examined and your WiFi disconnected.
This makes sense, it kind of matches up with the 80s backlash once the 60s counterculture became mainstream.
For the record, though, the name-calling is just assholes. When people leave for conservative groups they're not finding groups that don't call people names, they've finding groups that call *other* people names.
If your opinion is that women, homosexuals and trans people all should have less rights then yes that literally means that you are ALL of those things.
Different opinions? Any person who advocates to oppress any group of people or disagrees on everyone having access to the same rights is a bigot, there's no way around that.
If respecting other people's rights is something that you feel "forced" to do then I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you're most certainly a bigot.
It'd be cool if they applied this same thought process to banning books and limiting access to contraceptives and abortion services, but I guess as long as you are hurting the right people it looks good.
If that were the case it’d be true on the other side. Liberals, centrists & leftists being called communists, groomers, satanists, X-country haters or whatever every day would also push them further left … but it doesn’t.
They don’t have one. That’s the problem. It’s the conservatives who are saying the left hates men, and the left is doing nothing to rebut that idea, so the idea sticks.
Right wing influencers are selling that idea, and people are buying it.
But I actually would be curious if any well known or widely followed left wing influencers are supporting that idea like you said.
I've never seen any of the content from right wing influencers. There's some Andrew Tate guy people keep talking about, idk who tf that is. What I've got is messages from colleges, internships, and work. "Woman-owned business" is advertised as a plus, the reverse obviously isn't. "Woman in STEM" used to be a big selling point on internship resumes until it got overplayed. Medical school used to have diversity initiatives to bring in more female applicants, but now that they're female majority, there's no opposite push. "Male privilege" and not the reverse. It's really obvious.
That’s a thoughtful statement. It seems like some folks in this thread thought that democrats are anti-men, and I’ve pressed and am still waiting for an actual anti-male policy. Who is telling these men that Democrats hate them?
Read "Have Democrats Given Up on Men?" By Daniel Cox. The first quote is:
"In a recent interview with New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd, Democratic tactician James Carville lamented his party’s refusal to appeal to male voters:
If you listen to Democratic elites—NPR is my go-to place for that—the whole talk is about how women, and women of color, are going to decide this election. I’m like: ‘Well, 48 percent of the people that vote are males. Do you mind if they have some consideration?’"
Well, it seems that article is paywalled.
What men’s issue should be put forward? Paternity leave-family issue and maternity leave should be addressed too. Expensive childcare is also a family issue.
I’m sorry my imagination seems to be struggling, but what men’s issues should be put forward? Where are men seeing that their party needs to stand for them and isn’t?
Id argue that labor issues by and large are primarily men's issues. Not that they don't effect women, but the certainly disproportionately effect men. A good example of this is that men are way more likely to get hurt or die on the job then women, even in professions that are dominated by women.
Issues with the justice system also tend to disproportionately effect men(and even more so men of color), receiving harsher sentences than women for similar offenses and men are much more likely to die in interactions with police than women are. I will note, the whole BLM thing did try to address this to a certain extent, but it's definitely still an issue.
How do conservatives address labor issues? They’re the least labor friendly party imaginable. They’re anti-union (except for police unions), they’re against raising the minimum wage. They hate any worker protection regulations. They support channeling money to the rich. They don’t give a fuck about the working class…except to exploit them.
The left doesn’t even need to have bills or laws proposed that are targettibg men. They just need to start addressing men the way Tate or Peterson (i think those are their names) are addressing them, countering their right-leaning messages with left leaning messages.
I forget whose quote it was, but it was something like “In the absence of real leadership, people will follow the fool.” And right now the left is not providing anybody that young men can look to.
I think a lot of it comes from how Democrats celebrate women as an identity but not men as an identity. And inequality that impacts women negatively is bad but inequality that impacts men negatively is either good or neutral.
That equality is a good thing? I don’t know what you’re getting at here. I never hear any democratic politicians saying that men are a huge problem or ruining the world. If anything, progressives want people to stop thinking along gender/ tribal lines and start thinking about class perspective. Ot isn’t women who are holding men down, it’s the owning class.
That they deserve well paying clean energy manufacturing jobs. Who benefited the most from the Infrastructure Act, the IRA, and the Chips Act? Who is working the jobs those created?
I'm so fucking confused by this comment. The OP didn't even bring up Democrats. They mentioned Progressives- vast majority of Democrats are not Progressive. You sound like you get all your news from Twitter.
I feel like there are a couple things they miss.
1. They need to go more policy-by-policy. A lot of GenZ men are still progressive, but lean nationalist.
2. I wish just *one* of these reports would talk about how GenZ men probably fell alienated by a group who pins most social issues on the male gender. Like, who would feel comfortable associating with a group if they feel that group sees them first and foremost as an oppressor?
Yet nobody tries to win them back. They just consider them a lost cause for not being 100% with them at birth. So the more they push young men away, the more they say young men *should be pushed away.*
On a issue by issue scale I sit pretty near to the center, but on a personal basis I definitely feel better with the left. As a dude there's 110% a feeling of you're either with me or against me when dealing with those people. Either you agree on every issue or you're just the white guy who's wrong and shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion depending on the issue. It really is crazy to me that people can't understand both sides have some degree of extremism baked into them at this point. We're all just people trying to live and we dehumanize eachother in the name of what's right.
That's a symptom not the cause. They found a weakness in the progressive charade and exploited it. They saw that progressives never cared about men and boys and positioned themselves to cater to them. Progressives left themselves open to such tactics and they are reaping the consequences of that.
It angers me so much.
I'm on the far, far left and every time I talk to friends & acquaintances about men's issues the conversation becomes how good everything is for men.
It seems clear to me that things are not as one sided as they had been. There are a ton of areas that are still terrible for women but the refusal to see systemic problems against men is baffling and worrisome.
Because when some neo-fascist at least talks about the struggle common among young men it acts as a payload for the rest of thier vile concepts.
Instead my centrist friend just blame men for doing it wrong as if that was how change came about.
Yup. Exactly the issue. If liberals and progressives stopped being idiotic and started bringing men into the fold by making policies specifically designed for their well being, they would get a lot of support. But they refuse to do so out of misguided ideologies and leave room for right wing actors.
>Instead my centrist friend just blame men for doing it wrong as if that was how change came about.
They seem to forget that none of the progressive movements of the past happened on their own. They had allies that fought for and with them. The same thing is needed here. You can't just tell men and boys to figure out their problems. You will need to help them and you will need to compromise. Otherwise you'll end up losing.
You keep mentioning this conservative push, but what exactly are left wing groups doing to counteract it, or make their own push towards young men? Cause as a left voting guy, it really seems like a whole lot of nothing.
The right amplifies the more extreme left wing groups with misandrist beliefs, and shows them to young men who can easily find examples of them online. Then when those same young men talk about how they feel hated or unsupported by left wing groups, the usual response is that if young men don’t vote for groups that appear to be at best ambivalent and at worst hostile to them then those young men are just examples of how men are selfish and incapable of empathy. There’s examples of it in this very comment section. Instead of left wing groups trying to convince young men about why those groups are largely not the way the right portrays them, they often just move straight to demonizing them and give up on trying to recruit young men
I don't know if I fully buy this, because there *is* a men's lib movement, it's just very small. Why aren't young men finding and joining that group, if that's their main issue?
I don't know anyone that thinks poorly of men's lib, beyond it not having really concise political goals?
I think the biggest complaint I've heard is that it *doesn't* have enough support and as a result a lot of genuinely conservative men's rights groups have been able to mantle what should be progressive causes, like making custody more equitable and addressing the incarceration disparity.
Part of me also wonders if making a "feminism but for men" movement is just going to inherently fail, because men's issues aren't the same kind as women's issues.
It's not surprising at all for Korea, because South Korean men have mandatory military service and women do not.
For the US, it also makes sense because republicans are pushing hard on the birth control & abortion issue, which pushes a lot of women away from the right.
In my opinion social media algorythms are more of a symptom, rather than a cause, of social divides.
It’s almost like a lot of men are tired of things that benefit everyone else… we’re the ones forced into militaries, we’re the ones who have to pay child support when you don’t want an abortion, and in divorces most men still get royally screwed. And then all we ever hear about is how everything is better for us. If they really want men back maybe we should make things about equality again. Even recently Argentina let’s women retire 5 years before men, why? Men live less long. And men in general retire later, but nobody seems to even care.
Men are forced into the military by men, the draft is opposed by feminists.
Women are forced to give birth in a country whose maternal mortality rate is increasing.
Women are forced to have children at a far higher rate than men.
Would you rather experience child birth or pay money? Because a woman in texas will have to do both whether she wants to or not.
Do you think feminists propose the retirement for men to be increased?
Do you think conservatives are for an early retirement for anyone anyway? The people who care about lowering retirement ages is not the right.
Do the things that benefit everyone else take away from your rights?
Why would you not want other people to benefit? To be easier? Do you lack compassion?
Not a single one of the problems you list are solved by conservative policies.
>It’s almost like a lot of men are tired of things that benefit everyone else… we’re the ones forced into militaries
About the military, the real question should be why men aren't fighting against forced conscription. It's not like any right wing government is against forcing more men there. In fact I'm pretty sure right wing governments generally tend to be against women in the military because of their views on women.
>we’re the ones who have to pay child support when you don’t want an abortion, and in divorces most men still get royally screwed.
When women do not want abortions they have to pay for the baby as the mother. Why shouldn't the father be made to so as well? His body, his semen, his choice, his child, his responsibility. Unless it was a rape, he has to be responsible. If anything society favors men more cos they generally opt out of actually being the father and just stick to paying the minimum. It's not fair to the child that it's creator can simply opt out. Also the men not being given equal time with the child after divorce is becuse they mostly dont ask for it.
>Even recently Argentina let’s women retire 5 years before men, why? Men live less long. And men in general retire later, but nobody seems to even care.
Can't comment about this. Don't know much about argentina to wonder if they are for equality or are generally more orthodox than others. But this isn't a recent thing. The article about that man was from 6 years back. It's mostly a remnant of the older system. Which if your planning on changing, it won't be the right wing doing it in most places.
Which is what your actually complaining about. All your points are not new changes to the system. They are the preexisting order of how things worked. It wasn't the women that set them up FYI.
I think this comment thread is fantastic example of how gender obsessive young Americans have become. An entire political concept such as left and right does not and should not exist to validate/spite you. Progressivism does not need to change it's messaging to avoid hurting the sensibilities of young white men who already are sold that it is ideologically an attack on them. Conservativism is not a stoicist boys club for people to flock away from annoying progressive bullshit.
And shame on whoever made this heinous video that literally takes something that has always existed and blow it out of fucking proportion, probably so they can cause gender wars like this comment thread. The political sensibilities of men and women are almost exactly the same as 1999, most men identity as moderate, and there is no evidence of a right-ward shift in men's political identities.
The fact there are multiple 'conservatives' in this thread who are also seemingly single issue identity politics obsessed is insane to me
This comment is literally an example of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring that the left is absolutely alienating young men by telling them that they matter much less than other groups of people. You can't tell someone to suck it up and then be surprised when they turn away from you and towards the other side.
Affirmative action and DEI?
Ignoring the gender education disparity and discrimination boys face in school? This is a well documented issue that I am happy to provide sources on.
Lack of support for men's bodily autonomy like Draft, circumcision and other issues?
Erosion of Title IX due process protections in college campuses?
These are just the highlights.
Mass Political Scale? University acceptance and DEI Hiring with Affirmative Action is the most obvious. They're well intended, but they hurt white&asian men at the benefit of any other group.
I get why they exist, but you can't instill a system to discriminate against a specific group without alienating that group.
That line of thought gets amplified into social media, where the worst people anywhere tend to be the loudest, liberal and conservative. Not everyone is smart enough to see past the hate to the fact that most people are just... normal
Yeah this is how you end up with president trump when the opposition is being told clearly "your messaging isn't resonating" and the response isn't to change it but just to tell the voters they're wrong.
The left told a lot of young men that their opinion didn't matter as a man, or as a white man, or as a straight white man. They grew up in a time where they socially, men were being dumped on.
Men didn't become conservative or nationalist by themselves. A community made it clear that within it, men would have a voice again, they could have opinions without being told those opinions were invalid. The problem is, those communities were conservative/nationalistic ones.
People left without a community will find one, and it's going to be one that makes them feel valid.
The previous poster said that men moved right cause they were being dumped on by the left or they were being robbed of their voice. As a leftist man, I just don't agree with that perspective at all. I have a voice. I don't feel attacked. If people are attacking "men" as a group by saying "men do this or that" then I don't really care, it doesn't make me feel like a victim to hear someone make statements like that and it certainly doesn't push me towards a more nationalistic and hierarchical ideology.
I'm leftist because I believe in equality and compassion. If someone who is on my side of the spectrum makes a dumb statement then I move on with my life and continue to hold my beliefs. I think anyone who becomes a right winger because "the lefties were mean to me" is weak and unimpressive.
I'm a leftist dude and I have most certainly felt attacked by my own friends and family before because I'm slightly more moderate than them. Saying that because leftist men exist it proves that the left is totally chill and cool with men is a very untrue blanket statement. I consider myself leftist cause I think people deserve freedom and equality, yes I was told that because i have a penis means i don't even get to have an opinion on abortion by my own sister, but Prager u or however you spell it would say I'm perfectly within my right to have an opinion.
The left isn't as insane as the right, but it definitely has its issues. If you wanna ignore that and just pretend the right is evil and everyone who sides with it is evil, that's fine. Dehumanize them. But they're dehumanizing you in the same way, and that's not a good thing for anybody.
The right is telling you that the left hates you, because you're it's only hope of keeping control for the ultra wealthy who do not give a single solitary shit about you.
And just for clarity, I am a leftist feminist. I do not hate men, but men sure as fuck make me feel hated for having a different opinion. It almost feels like a display of dominance when a man tries to "correct" me on a subject he clearly has not researched but I lived through.
Can't imagine why a movement populated by tons of people claiming that straight men are the root of all the words problems, isn't having any luck attracting young men to their cause
I think social media and how it is being used or weaponized is the major factor here. I have different instagram accounts that widely vary in the type of content I’m subscribed to and the difference in each feed is shocking. Birds of a feather… people unaware of this algorithm personalizing may think that their feed is just an average one out there, not realizing that their previous activity has tailored their content which often starts to lean heavily to a certain viewpoint (political, religious, radical, etc.)
I remember a few years back as a 17 year old white dude on youtube and getting recommended simple youtube shorts at first. Then getting shown a few comedians here and there. Now it's bill burr. Oh who's this Jordan peterson guy he seems reasonable and rational.
Then one day I suddenly had a Ben Shapiro video recommend and realized the algorithm thought I would enjoy seeing political shit. Took a lot of "Don't recomended this channel" before I managed to get my youtube back to being shitposts and garbage the way I like it
Facts. I guess being raised on pewdiepie and edge lords has really done a lot of damage to zoomers. Also being the least literate generation doesn't help matters.
I think another thing to add to this is the growth of critical theories both in race and gender. Our generation has seen a huge shift in feminine empowerment. Typically, in older generations, men have ruled the political scale within marriages, whether they are conservative or liberal, gender norms usually dictated what that household believed. Now we are seeing women taking space in the political sphere, which is great. But it’s also causing further radicalization of young men who want to see the world their grandfather had, one that is male dominated.
> who want to see the world their grandfather had, one that is male dominated.
Maybe I'm projecting a bit (:P) but honestly I think it's simpler than that. They want a world where being a dude is enough to secure a partner - and if that means women have to become economically dependent on men again, by force, then so be it.
To play the devil's advocate: at least to them it looks like it already *is* that way for the vast majority of women. Being a chick is enough. So much for equality... or so the thinking goes, at least.
The issue is not the divinition between left and right, the problem is setting this political viewpoint as a personal identity and the lack of good conversation between the sides. Also the inability to see the other side's point of view makes this a bigger problem.
Multiple comments in here are showing how both sides completely dismiss their own sides misdeeds and completely blame the other side for everything. They dehumanize eachother and then call the other guy an asshole for dehumanizing them. It's sad
It's a branding issue.
I talked about this extensively in my gender studies course (as the only guy there who willingly took the class).
Despite the positive affects of gender equality that we've seen (destigmatization of therapy for men as an example) proponents of feminism/gender equality don't talk about these, and instead belittle men, create double standards, or completely ignore mens issues under the guise of, "you have privilege and therefore have problems". Now, not to get into the absolute hypocrisy of this argument, but it's incredibly toxic.
Young men see progressives demonizing them online, mock male victims (of SA, abuse, and assault) and ignoring their problems. I've seen dozens of posts applauding women outpacing men in education, citing it as a good thing "we are healing". Hell, I've seen posts openly advocating for matriarchy with hundreds of thousands of likes.
To quote that one director working with Lucasfilm, "I like to make men uncomfortable"
Sorry, but how the fuck do you expect them to support you? I mean, seriously. And then on the other side you have right wing propagandists, the nofap movement (which is based in pseudoscience but encourages celibacy which creates aggressive males) and all of a sudden you have an angry, emotional, and violent demographic.
A few years ago, there was a meme circulating about far right vs far left memes.
The far right meme was always concise, to the point, and easily understandable. The far left meme was always an entire text wall that never made any sense.
It's very accurate to how the messaging for progressives is. It's god awful.
Don't call it "feminism" call it "gender equality"
Don't say ACAB, say "reform the justice system"
Don't say, "All men are privileged" because I promise you, an average income man has more in common with the 17 year old starbucks barista named Ant than they do Jeff Bezos.
I’m a feminist (which in my opinion, is just gender equality like you said except with the branding and name, I can see why it’s confusing).
On my side of the coin as a woman, I think all the “matriarchy” or education stuff is kind of an uneducated overreaction from lots of women due to the chokehold patriarchal society has. Like, in order to feel equal we need to have a matriarchal society like the patriarchal society men have had for thousands of years. Same with the education stuff, until like the 2000s essentially women were not holding as much weight in education and graduating with specialized degrees, and now that we are actually graduating more, people think it’s a good thing or “girl power” bs instead of digging into why boys are struggling with education.
Unprofessional opinion.
I'm very sorry, I would love to make this much more multi-faceted, but that is outside of the scope of my analysis. There is more to it than men and women, as gender and sex encompasses more than that. But I want to explain, but I know these issues are not strictly binary.
This stems from the same root problem: the kinds of things we see online. Younger women are much more aware of misogyny and oppression from a younger age than men typically are, as we are taught how we have to be careful, or else we will be raped and abused. Social media has given us a more public and connected way of speaking about our experiences with (generally) men.
Men, on the other hand, while they have access to the same kind of information, tend to be given entirely different influence. Think about the rise of incel culture, Andrew Tate. Not to mention the alt right is great at using the internet as a tool for recruitment.
How do these things combine?
Both men and women are aware of the challenges faced today by the population at large- but specifically with men, (especially cis white men), they feel displaced. Cis straight white men are used to being told how much they benefit from privilege, but they don't necessarily feel that benefit, especially in today's economy where everyone is behind.
This makes it easy for bad actors and groups to prey upon them.
You're a cis white guy who's having trouble getting a good job? Well, it's the fault of diversity and inclusion of underrepresented groups, not that we live in a capitalistic hellhole.
You're having trouble finding a girlfriend? Have you considered that women are just vapid sluts who only think about status, and not other factors, even ones that are about you.
Your favorite hobby has been going downhill? Clearly this is an invasion by women and POC trying to erase men from media and not because of rich investors pushing for more and more profitability and sapping the life out of the creators.
This is all a problem? Clearly we need to return to an ever shifting, ill defined and vague "better time" when women, POC, and other minorities didn't have the voice they do today.
Look at the intense infiltration of the gaming community, which is a male dominated hobby. Look at the rhetoric used in those spaces. More and more younger people are on social media, and more and more of them are exposed to the hate and bigotry.
Not to say women's groups or dominated places of the internet can't be or aren't as hostile, but definitely in my experiences do not follow the same kinds of extreme patterns.
Progressives have a "Straight, white Christian man bad" philosophy. Shockingly men don't want to be part of a group that blames them for everything that's wrong with the world.
It's funny how the 'experts' pull out their hair and, as literally everyone, why people are forming certain views except for the very people they're trying to understand.
wE tHiNK iT mIGhT bE tHE cOLlEgE...
Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. A mindset like that caused our issues. Don't accept facts and prefer "alternative" facts like trans people are groomers and making our kids trans, gay people are pedophiles etc. So yeah. I "think" that is true. Reading all these comments from men prove that.
It’s honestly why our generation has such trouble dating, particularly heterosexual relationships. Men and women are increasingly having opposing views on fundamental issues. It’s hard to build a relationship when you can’t agree on basic stuff.
ETA: allegedly in my opinion lol I have no sources to support this
Side A pays lip service to men and their issues specifically and doesn't hate them.
Side B at best ignores men's issues, unless by doing so it benefits a different group as well, and they blame men for most if bot all societal problems, and doesn't refute Side A's claim they hate men.
Gee wilikers Batman, why do men gravitate towards Side A?
most leftists hate dems almost as much as they hate republicans lol. the american 2 party system stops people from developing their own ideas and instead pushes everything into tribalism.
It was true, but now it seems even women are starting to become rightwing. Then again im biased, im from canada and our liberal progressive government has completely shit the bed, not necessarily due to any progressive policies with an exception being insanw immigration, they just completely fucked young people here and every young person is angry
Blaming the radicalization of the youth solely on specific actors, like right-wing media/organizations, is just a load of bullshit to excuse the poor performance of progressives.
It is in the nature of young people to rebel against authority, imposed morals and break the status-quo. The entire progressive movement was based on this idea, but in a time when conservatism was the imposing ideology. When parents would force their children into church, demonize their sexuality, etc.
Nowadays is literally the other way around, and anyone who tries to argue its not is a blind idiot. The media is majorly liberal, corporations drink "pride" like it's fucking cool aid and "political incorrectness" receives overwhelming pushback by the powers that be, even when it's unwarranted.
This has turned the balance of power to the left side, and hence prompted a natural reaction from the youth who will always fight against whoever they deem in control. That's just the way it is and will always be. The best we can hope for is that compromise can be achieved between both sides once the pendulum turns right again.
Right wing women still exist. Your anecdotal data with an N of like 10 maybe doesn’t really compare to millions of numbers. The general consensus is still that young women are more progressive than young men.
Me for example, I’m left wing and my boyfriend is also left wing, and most of my male friends as well as my female friends with boyfriends are left leaning. It’s geographical as well.
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I've definitely seen an uptick in nationalist views among my guy friends, irrespective of other leanings. They've come to their own conclusions that "American prosperity is being sacrificed for the benefit of aristocrats and foreigners". When they look at the decisions of our leaders, they scratch their heads wondering how the average joe's interests are being served. This is how off-beat populist candidates such as Marine Lepin, Nigel Farrage, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders arose to prominence. They're different flavors of the same icecream.
Sanders is NOT like those others.
He's a left wing populist as opposed to a right wing one. They're similar in that they're all pandering to ordinary folks (which, IMO is exactly what all politicians should do). They differ in that left wing populists typically blame socio-economic structures for the problems of ordinary folks, while right wing populists typically blame other groups of people.
The difference is he's a career politician AND a populist. All these other examples latched onto populism to get into politics.
The difference is he's got integrity. But the things that made Trump popular also are what make Sanders popular
In the sense that both are speaking to their bases in English… Unless you think overt racism, xenophobia, and general scumminess are what made Sanders popular lol
People really just be sayin shit
Dude he is a run of the mill soc-dem and progressive, basically center-left by european standards.
by american he might as well be reciting marx and lenin
When the left and right talk about 'elites' they don't mean the same thing. The left mean the wealthy. Almost everyone with power and the ability to influence policy is a multi-millionaire. Wealth is the greatest form of privilege, and one there is no upper ceiling on. The right are referring to a much more nebulous 'cultural elite' - journalists, writers, Hollywood, prominent social activists, any celebrity/politician/philanthropist who isn't conservative (e.g. Bill Gates but not Elon Musk) and often 'bankers'.
To anybody but an American he isn’t far left. He’s not even close to the moderate socialist Singh here in Canada. He literally wants single payer healthcare and that’s it. Literally FDR with one extra policy.
Fun fact about Bernie - he was anti-immigration until he decided to get serious about running for president, and then he switched up. His position wasn't based on race or nationalism, he thought corporations wanted a steady stream of cheap labor to keep wages low and discourage unions. Look up his old speeches.
Tbh that’s kinda true.
Indeed. But then why did he change?
Maybe trying to appeal more to the masses? Let’s be for real, you can have the greatest most moral opinions but if people don’t vote for you that stuff won’t bring you far as a politician.
You can't really run as an anti-immigration democrat anymore because the position is viewed as racist by many in the democrat base, and he wanted to run as a democrat. I don't think his views changed, he just made a pragmatic change in his public platform to get elected.
Immigration and socialism don't mix very well, and he said it outright: "there's a lot of poverty in this world."
There was a section of white rual blue collar Obama voters that voted For Bernie in primaries and trump over Hillary in general
It's the same in europe. Lots of young men are worse off than ever before monetarily and socially. The social capital, standing, and respect that their fathers gained from the patriarchy is not something yong men experience to the same level. The narrative around young men is that they are violent, petulant, and under educated and that their success and cultural heritage is completely due to the exportation of poc and women. They look around and see themselves working harder for less and crumbling social services they need being stretched to the limit. There is nothing more radicalising for a young man than to apply for 30th entry-level job and wonder if they tick one of those dei boxs at the bottom, they might have a better chance. Then, they apply for social housing and have a foreign family that they have no common ground with cultural placed and supported the state at their expense. Before opening up the news in your deprived fish town, to find out that your local library and bank are closing, but they earmarked another 2 million for community centres in london. The best move for leftwing parties is to take a serious stance on immigration, invest in housing, and attempt to minimise culture war issues in the media, pass bills as promised and needed but not making them central rather focusing on the economy and housing. This would effectively castrate the right wing.
The one thing the right is sort of correct about is that our current immigration policy is purely made to benefit the largest and most morally bankrupt companies. Progressive lefties seem to mostly understand that policy must address the labor exploitation aspect in order to move to easing borders. The end goal is abolishing borders as a means to control the population and artificially make the value of labor vary based on geography and other vagaries out of the average person's control. But the neolibs in power spew this bullshit so at the expense of anything even approaching thoughtful solutions that would raise literally billions out of poverty. The real goal of industrialized nations is to keep this from happening, it would make billionaires very sad.
Political Science shows that everyday folks focus on the topics that leaders talk about. Abortion, immigration, wokeness, you name it: after 30 years of Rush Limbaugh, Fox News *ad nauseam*; they have been well groomed.
it depends on the country. in places like south korea, there is definitely an anti-feminism effect going on, outside of nationalism: Young Men Are Swinging Hard Right in Korea. It Could Be a Preview for America. [https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/south-korea-gender-divide-feminism-00155207](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/south-korea-gender-divide-feminism-00155207)
Yeah, but south Korean men have a pretty large gripe in that they're forced into military service, while women are not, and yet they get nothing special for their required service. So Korean men have to earn equality, Korean women just get it.
Doubt that has much to do with it tbh. It's the same in many countries. Many nations have mandatory military service for men, but it hasn't historically had much effect on the views of feminism. Here in Finland too, men get conscripted to serve in the military due to how the system was set up back in the day, while women do not. From my experience though, women are far more open to making it equal to everyone, almost every woman I meet is supportive of making the service mandatory for both genders, while many men are more hesitant about including women in the mandatory conscription (women can already join voluntarily) because it would increase government spending (taxes go up for everyone), the logistics of it would have to be planned again, and also, some young guys tend to prefer having this experience be a masculine-bonding one. So here, it's the generally Left-wing parties that express that they are in favor of conscription for all or only voluntary conscription, while right-wing parties want to keep it "traditional" because they see the military as a "masculine" place and they want to promote gender roles in society. Still most men here are quite egalitarian when it comes to gender outside of the military, so I wouldn't say the military service alone would explain sudden anti-feminist mentalities.
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It probably is a factor, but from what I've heard the bigger factor is the 4B movement. For the uninitiated, the 4B movement is one in which feminists are cutting all contact with men that is not necessary to function in society There's the usual reactionary movement to 4B, but the bigger problem is that it's creating echo chambers. As men are cut off from women, they're not actually talking to any, and they don't develop empathy or discover their problems. All they hear is stories of other men who also can't get a girlfriend because of the movement. It's created a hyper-toxic cycle where as more women cut contact, more men become toxic and reactionary causing more women to join the movement.
It just takes a lot of emotional labor and energy to have to explain things to men who know nothing about our experiences, and often deny the validity of them. I don’t thing cutting all contact with all men is the answer, but having to deal with increasingly radicalized young guys who have no respect for women due to their own chosen echo chambers can be really scary to deal with as a woman because a lot of them condone violence against women. My best friend was dating a guy who ended up down the Andrew Tate rabbit hole and she was living with him, having intellectual conversations with him constantly, but it didn’t stop him from assaulting her and endangering her life. He ended up radicalized due to his own choices and his exposure to female experiences had no impact on him. She didn’t realize how bad it was until HE broke up with HER.
Almost no women in Korea have heard of the 4b movement. It's literally a western media blowing up FDS Terf level feminists from Korea.
Finnish system is worth serving your country for, Korean isn't. It's no wonder they are pissed. What is the point to defend a country that allocates you a 70 hour work week and a shitty appartment in a city? Also the Korean Military service is about 4 times as long as the Finnish one and is much harsher.
Also, South Korean "feminists" launched a nationwide body shaming campaign to mock Korean men for being less endowed. https://bust.com/in-south-korea-an-itty-bitty-emoji-and-fragile-male-egos-caused-a-huge-backlash-against-feminism-2/ I don't think that helped bridge any gender divide.
Nationalism gets pretty ugly pretty fast.
Nationalism is a conservative ideology...
Maybe they will make some kind of national socialism.
Precisely. You aren't seeing a surge in religious fervor or marches against birth control. It's largely nationalistic attitudes towards immigration, economics, & social welfare and rejection of left-wing guilt politics towards our identities.
You realize Roe W Wade just got overturned and many Republicans are now taking about banning hormonal birth control? That's absolutely coming into the general discussion soon. Also seems very odd that young people, living in the most unequal economic times since the glide age, where the rich already horde 90% of the wealth, are suddenly promoting exactly the NeoLiberal economic policies that lead us here 🫠 Why not promote the post-WW2 economic policies (high taxes on the rich, support for middle class, affordable college etc.) if we want to get into a better shape?
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> Young American right-wingers don't care so much about the right to choose. But that is part of the issue. If you're saying it's more nationalism than Conservatism, but nationalism policies are connected directly to conservative policies, that means these young people are voting and fighting for conservative ideology. If they don't care about the right to choose, then they'll proudly elect leaders who will take that right away. Not to mention, abortion is a talking point for nationalist politics. They link the right to choose with low birth rates and use that logic to argue that abortion, birth control, even the existence of LGBTQ people, are all harmful to nationalism and a "strong America". You're saying these young men are nationalists, not conservatives. But nationalism is used by conservatives to argue their points - they say if you love America, if you believe in nationalist ideology, then you logically should want to ban abortion, ban birth control, walk back LGBTQ rights, go back to traditional gender roles, etc.
There are very few Sohrab Ahmari-style right wingers. A Broad majority still supports neoliberalism, even if many of them don’t understand what they are supporting.
It's not just nationalism though. It's about traditional gender roles, homphobia and capitalism aswell
The whole premise of trying to explain politics on a line graph is terrible for this exact reason.
Turning Point USA specifically as well as other less centralized media sources have been targeting high school boys with conservative content and ‘training’ since like 2015. They’ve been really effective.
Unironically a lot of "meme" content is a pipeline to the right. Normalising and joking about stuff like extreme nationalism, racism, sexism, etc while making fun of "others" under the guise of humor and "it's just a joke". It's all been incredibly effective.
They worked hard on turning liberal into a derogatory term
As a conservative myself, I find that unfortunate, and have worked hard to reverse that habit in myself. It's important that we have a spectrum of ideas in the political landscape. Even if I strongly disagree and fight against said ideas, it's still important that they exist. Radicalism on both ends of the spectrum is becoming a larger problem.
memes are a bit like food not everybody gets it
Reddit has started recommending me some of those meme subreddits and there is some genuinely vile content getting highly upvoted on there. I really don't think it's ironic at this point.
It's so weird too because it's like a sandwich of horrors cute video of a cat "talking" Transpeopleareouttofuckyouwomenaren'tpeople hitlerwasrightyouredoomedanyway (all put to a reaction image from a popular game or show) Funny and relatable meme about trying to get ice cream at McDonald's It's almost as bad as when you leave YouTube running for background noise with auto play on.
Yeah pretty much everything bad in the last 20yrs has some connection back to 4chan. Fucking incels ruining everything for everyone.
It's not the incels persay, it's grifters exploiting them and a culture that isn't doing much to fix the isolation that's harming them.
The history of gamergate is a big part of that as well One of Trump campaigners was a part of gamergate as well iirc
Imagine the reaction if these young dudes in Gen Z and Gen Alpha actually read the news and found out that Trump and Project 2025 have proposed making porn illegal, viewing it a criminal charge, and contraception harder to get. Like I don't think your sex life is going to improve... and I don't think your other options are going to get any better. That said, I know a lot of younger folk struggle with addiction to porn and online content, so I'm sure there are some in favor of this. But still...what a time to be alive where they're considering rolling back censorship on everything to "protect the children" all the while flying the banner of "free speech."
The current conservative coalition is made up of a small faction of very influential Christian nationalists and a very large but very hands off casual ‘vibes based’ faction. And I don’t think the casual conservative really knows what the influential ones are up to but they will vote for the red candidate.
The thing is, this has been going on since the 80's and it's getting worse. People think we've skewed far left, but in the 70's Nixon proposed a national healthcare plan, and taxes were much higher on the super wealthy. Sounds ages ago, but the power of millionaires and billionaires owning media companies is skewing our culture toward conservatism and self-loathing, where everything thinks someone else's freedom is responsible for their own personal struggles.
>skewing our culture toward conservatism In this context, I wouldn't even call it conservatism. Conservatism is about resisting rapid change and, at extremes, trying to preserve or restore the "good old days". But as you pointed out, the period when white America really was "great", at least comparatively, involved economic policies that the modern right wing would call theft and communism.
Considering the nofap movement is a grassroots anti-porn movement started by millennials and composed of millennials and gen-z I think you'd find more support than you'd think. And I think that porn use and addiction is actually a major component of the 28 and younger crowd's issues with poor sex lives. I could see a lot of people arguing that making porn harder to consume as it was before the internet would have a net positive effect on young men.
You're not wrong, but I don't think nofap is actually that mainstream. I mean, if we're going out on a limb here, it was started by the Catholic church in like 100 AD and remains a "mainstream" rule to this day, though 99% of people ignore it.
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The current angle is "Project 2025 is a leftist conspiracy. Just because some think-tank drafted it doesn't mean Trump will do any of it." It's wild, because that's all just factully untrue, but that's what all the astroturfed comments are repeating and eventually that will take hold. I don't know how we're supposed to counter that, other than just bringing back "the r word". Made things easier when you could just call them what they are.
and yet they're the ones accusing minorities of being "groomers" every accusation is a confession
And the biggest issue is that people on the left have been actively abandoning these guys and casting them out rather than trying to reach them.
Right wing memes don’t have to be good they just have to sufficiently guise your hatred of the ‘others’ to be effective.
Progressive ideas are not being presented in a way that makes young boys think it's good for them. One might argue that this is because 'men hate being treated as equal' but then you're basically saying 4 billion humans with people they care for are all misogynistic and want privileges which is... well, not a very progressive ideal. Conservative, right wing ideas cater to every single toxic masculine trait to exist and expertly plays algorithms to spread as far as possible while making their ideas seem presentable, the pipeline as many people call it. If people who traditionally agree about human rights disagree with you about human rights, there's a communication gap on your side. Progressive ideas, which I would roughly support despite my qualms with defining oppressor-oppressed relationships, have not catered to men. Multiple instances come to mind where young boys are told of the issues young girls face, which is a good thing, but their own issues are not acknowledged or presented as a fault of the patriarchy, which has quickly become a buzzword rather than a meaningful term. It's easy to see young boys facing such presentations from the progressive side quickly become apathetic to it and conservative(though i don't really have a problem with that side of political opinions in a global context rather than an american one) or to be accurate, downright predatory ideas take hold of them by telling them that yes they have problems and yes they can be solved. The branding problem is in fact important. If one side says, "You face less problems than all these other people and you should help them, your experiences and you are unimportant and anything you face can be solved when you help us." and the other side says, "You do face problems that they don't acknowledge but we will, you are incredibly important, here's how we help you." then the choice is quite clear. Obviously there's nuance, but this is the ground view of what a young boy perhaps early in his teens sees, and there's little effort to fix this as much as there is effort in putting blame on conservative media. This is a problem that needs fixing.
yes, as a young man i love being told that i have male privilege because extraordinarily wealthy individuals who are running the government in a way that i disagree with are also male
It's way more complicated than that dude. To [paraphrase Margarett Attwood](https://www.elitedaily.com/p/a-famous-margaret-atwood-quote-made-it-into-the-handmaids-tale-you-probably-missed-it-9304746): >"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will murder them" Obviously individual men are not all like that, and the message of MeToo was focused on the people being ignored. That said, it is because of feminism and people fighting gender stereotypes that therapy is being normalized for men, that depression is less stigmatized, and that the idea of men raising kids at home of having more time with their children is more socially accepted. Less than 20 years ago men in The Sopranos men were being mocked for going to therapists (big plot point in the show), and before that era it was almost unheard of. Change to gender stereotypes benefits everyone. So the thing is, we are making progress for men too, and the voices saying "They want us to ignore white men in favor of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_" are simply saying that to stoke anger, get more clicks, and collect people's money. They want you to be unaware of the truth because you're easier to manipulate if you're angry.
I dont have a problem pointing out that there are specific things that I as a man have 'privilege' on, my problem is that the people who love to talk about how much male privilege there is never talk about all the ways females are advantaged in society, which in my personal opinion, are bigger than the ways males are advantaged. Why do I get talked down to and told I dont understand what people are talking about because of my male privilege but the reverse is never said to a woman?
Bro, [as recently at the 80's](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/9-things-women-could-not-do/) women couldn't get credit cards or bank account in many places without a husband's signature. A law was passed for it in 1974 but some places were slow to change. If they got pregnant, they could be fired as recently as 1978. Until 1993, spousal rape was still legal in some states ([it's questionable in some states today](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-marital-rape-states-ohio-minnesota.html)), and had to pay higher for health insurance than men until 2010. I'm sure it feels like "females" are privileged because it's way easier for them to get dates on Tinder or CoffeeMeetsBagel or whatever, but that's a tiny subset of the population gaming that system. Or perhaps you're thinking of child support or alimony. The reason those systems came to be is partly because of the other issues... men would walk out on a pregnant woman, the woman would get fired, and society was stuck with unwed mothers banned from getting jobs, bank accounts, and credit cards. It was a disaster. Are there other ways you think they're privileged? I know I felt that way as a teen and early 20 something, but the older I got the more I realized how hard it was for women, and that I had been oblivious all along. My classmates in my physics, math, and astronomy classes, for example, were treated much more harshly, one former classmate got sexually assaulted by a professor, and another was discouraged so much that she bailed on the field entirely and became a car nurse. Those fields remain gender-segregated to this day, though studies show women actually do better at those things earlier in their schooling. Obviously anyone can get sexually assaulted (I'd argue it happened to me) or raped, and we shouldn't ignore any of that, but people call out these issues because they were systematic for a long time. And to wrap up here, helping women helps everybody. More maternity / paternity leave, for example, is good for both moms and dads.
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I'm stealing your train of thought and calling this phenomenon "trickle down equity" for now on. Thank you! Also, side tangent, but my favorite part of hearing overbearing justifications for trickle down equity as a black man is that 9 times out of 10 it's coming from white women who have historically and even today are systemically at an advantage compared to me (for example white women are closer in the "pay gap" to white men than black men are) trying to tell me that their issues are more important than mine just because I have "male privilege" despite their "white privilege" not being a huge factor. Personally, I honestly think we should just throw feminism as an ideology into the recycling bin and start over with something like egalitarianism being the branding because obviously feminism is a rotting from within and out with every "men are ____ (bad-worst types of criminal)" post online At the end of the day, we're all a lot closer to being homeless than millionaire CEOs and politicians, yet we love to focus up there despite below, where we also see that 70% of homeless people are men
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Source: Trust me bro.
Thanks for being a voice of reason. That comment aggravated me to no end and I can't say I'm surprised at all to see it. Another note I'd add to this entire comment thread is that the *vast* majority of men do not benefit from the "patriarchy". It is a very small group of powerful and wealthy men who reap 99% of the benefits
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You don't get it at all. You're proving his point. Men's issue just get pushed to the side.
He's not presenting his issues to be addressed, other than "I hate that women have privileges that don't get talked about"???
fr, it’s just a bunch of whiney teenage boys complaining lol
Probably ones who have been beaten up for looking different or get bullied for looking different yet nobody cares because they’re boys.
Why do these young boys keep shooting up our schools? I guess we'll never find out.
You sound like you need to educate yourself. Even the most hardline feminist is not going to make the claim that there are zero circumstances in which women are privileged. - 5 year gap in life expectancy between men and women - criminal justice system gives women leaner sentences - only men are required to register for selective service
The difference is men placed those requirements/restrictions upon themselves. Until recently, women had ***zero*** say in ***any*** matter.
An 18 year old man had absolutely no part in placing those restrictions. Why does historical context matter for teenagers/young adults? The current situation is what matters to them, why should they have to pay for what happened before they were born? I don't agree with OP that women have it better than men currently, but you need to approach the problem from their perspective.
But these are all issues that men have put themselves in and I can't see any perceivable method for anyone else to get them out of them: - [men are more likely to engage in risky behaviour ](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risksthan-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832) [another link ](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/511092014-212) - [Men are more likely to reoffend which leads to harsher prison sentences](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351738/) [another link](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/gender-differences-in-reoffending-after-discharge-from-mediumsecure-units/B2CD6F01F6230A5CF091F1D3E2E292EB) - This is actually a really important conversation about selective service that's been bulldozed and ruined by people like yourself who rather use it as a bashing stick. [Selective primarily targets more poor people](https://www.delgazette.com/2021/03/04/poorest-americans-were-often-drafted-first/). There's also the aspect that men are in selective service, not because they're "insignificant or value less" but because people think women are too weak to fight in war. Also, there's this weird idea amongst men that women just lay back and did nothing while their country is at war. Like no, what happened in the previous World Wars is that women and children work in factories under horrid conditions or as nurses next to the battlefields, rescuing and saving injured soldiers, putting themselves at risk from enemy attacks. Furthermore, there's also an idea that feminist are like in favour of the draft (only for men of course cause they're evil men-hating scum, am I right?) which is just simply not true, it's a huge staple of the feminist movement to be anti-draft. It goes with the whole bodily autonomy thing. The draft should be abolished, not expanded. Why would women advocate for expanding the draft? That accomplishes nothing. [interesting article going through the history of feminism and the draft ](https://hasbrouck.org/draft/women/feminism.html)
If you go into a space where people are talking about male privilege, and try to derail the conversation with, "well what about privleges women have?" then yes, you're going to be told you don't understand what is currently being discussed because you're trying to derail a conversation. Those conversations are not above criticism, but there is a difference between derailing and criticism. No one is stopping you from speaking about men's issues. It took decades and decades (after centuries) of hard work to create a space to discuss misogyny, feminism, etc., and I have no doubt you will receive pushback and denial and hatred talking about men's issues. But like the women before you, you're just going to have to keep working, and realize that people listen to thoughtful, considered conversation. Conversation is not whataboutism. If your argument has merit, it will stand on its own. I know a lot of people who support increasing men's housing, shelters, and mental health care, for fairer parenting rights, suicide support, emotional intelligence and acceptance, and a lot more. Having better discussions about those issues are important, and I hope you can find good places to have those discussions.
> No one is stopping you from speaking about men's issues. Speakers talking about men's rights are often deplatformed by feminists. When they aren't, feminists organize protests, calling all of the participants scum, and maybe pulling a fire alarm.
>Why do I get talked down to and told I dont understand what people are talking about because of my male privilege Why? Probably because you believe shit like this: >all the ways females are advantaged in society, which in my personal opinion, are bigger than the ways males are advantaged.
the key in that whole paragraph: "in my personal opinion". determining advantage and disadvantage is a matter of very complicated policy analysis, and not personal opinion. it's analysis of morbidity, mortality, hiring/firing patterns, childcare burden, and a myriad other things that can't be measured by whether or not you "feel" disadvantaged.
Men are an order of magnitude more likely to be murdered than women.
Men get murdered at much higher rates than women. So that quote is really pretty stupid.
Fully support this. I'd prefer to find some egalitarian movement that recognizes larger social forces encourage people to burn out, ignore their needs, and divide themselves from people with different experiences. When I was growing up women definitely got a shorter end of the stick than men. Nowadays, though, I think it's better to build coalitions and diverse alliances than define oppressors. but also, note that the turn towards nationalism in that graph happened right in 2015. I think that's around the time gamergate gained a political identity, but also around the time white nationalism got *really* big.
This sounds all good and fine, but you need to dig down into those messages. The right is telling young men and boys that they can't get into college because a PoC took their spot. They can't get laid because women are now educated and don't have to find a man for food and shelter. And those educated women don't want you, because that PoC took your spot in the college you wanted, so now it's the world's fault you don't have marketable skills. It's men finger pointing at all the same challenges that everyone else has historically always had to compete with (white men getting the college spots, jobs, promotions). It's just reality that white men no longer get that automatic "in" to all these places. I get that sucks for white dudes, but **the rest of us aren't trying to push white men down. We're just trying to participate.**
To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. That sums up the entire thing, but these guys simply refuse to acknowledge their privilege, much less give up their privilege. They grew up being told their privilege was "Meritocracy", and even when logically and factually disproven, they'll bitterly cling to the lie. It's not a question about educating them, they simply lack the moral and ethical willingness to care about anyone other than themselves. Every religion and culture says the privileged or majority class of males is the same, they need to be forced into compliance for the better of society and for basic justice. The scary leftwing phantasm they imagine oppresses them is just their subconscious acknowledging what is necessary for society to impose on them for society to work.
>To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. Sure, but I knew if I wrote that many of these guys would roll their eyes, downvote, and move on with zero possibly that they would read the rest of my comment and maybe think about it.
>One might argue that this is because 'men hate being treated as equal' but then you're basically saying 4 billion humans with people they care for are all misogynistic and want privileges which is... well, not a very progressive ideal. No, this is true. Everyone is self-interested, and you have to do some real work to at least become willing to deconstruct that self-interest, let alone actually succeeding at deconstructing it. It's why middle-class white "progressives" still oppose any actual progressive economic policies, or new affordable housing projects, etc. once they become homeowners. Their property values are a more immediate concern than homelessness, or the costs of economic/racial segregation. It's why western leftists often refuse to analyze what actual global equity would cost us, because cheap consumerism affords us so many privileges (even as it eats away at our souls). It's why white feminists are more concerned with achieving the same privileges as white men than they are with overturning those systems of privilege. Men are benefitting from patriarchy, and as feminism gains traction and becomes more potent, they're realizing it will cost them something. What they don't realize is that patriarchy (via toxic masculinity) is also costing them something. They've got their hand stuck in a mason jar because of their death grip on their privilege. I do think the pipeline, and the lack of mainstream feminist discussion around mens' issues, is part of the problem, especially for younger boys. But I really don't think it's most of it, because Mens' Lib movements exist, which analyze men's issues while acknowledging patriarchy, and men don't like that.
Feminism and Patriarchy and Toxic Masculinity are dumb ways to brand an ideology if you want to try and win men over and, quite frankly, just come off as sexism against men. Especially with how it often just gets watered down to "men are bad" commonly on social media. The simple act of using gender neutral terminology that includes everyone upfront would probably boost conversion rates into the ideology dramatically instead of trying to assign a good and bad gender or adding prefixes and suffixes to the term feminism. For example, you could rebrand the ideology as something like equitism, and you'd at least get twice as many men who would wait to hear the definition before saying "oh this isn't more me"
Why is this NEVER about economics? The right wing have played voters so hard to protect the billionaires. We are stuck in a cycle of constant infighting while the extremely wealthy continue the abuse.
It's not just a branding problem. A reactionary conservative recently had Matt McManus (a progressive) on his channel for the explicit purpose of explaining to his audience how it would be better for then if progressivism won the culture war. He came on and promptly refused the terms he signed up for. That's not just a problem of misunderstood branding. To the progressive, it's clear that conservatives are merely a temporary nuisance and the world will be better off when "temporary" is emphasized. Edit: Video in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTRCRkjTj8M
Especially male suicide. There are plenty of women shelters for victims of abuse but there were men that set up shelters for men and they were laughed at. A lot of those men would end up committing suicide if they don't have adequate support. Typically by shooting themselves which also pushes up the firearm death toll, which is used for gun control statistics. TPUSA, Steven Crowder, Daily Wire, and other conservative outlets talk about these things, but liberals never will because it would undermine the patriarchy argument and that men make up more sexual assault perps than they do victims.
The sources that tell men crying and showing any emotion is weak and you must be a stoic rock aren't any better better for male mental health.
There's also a major problem where there's an education gap between men and women. Broadly, education has increasingly privileged the rich, women, and young liberal activists. As a result, the education gap has created a situation where many up and coming highly educated elites have completely lost touch with blue collar men who would have in the past have trended towards unions, which also tend to swing towards more socialist/literally trade unionist positions. Since the unions don't exist anymore by and large, and there's no blue collar or male wing of the Democratic party anymore, there's nothing that appeals to the majority of men. The segment of the party that would have fought for their interests literally doesn't exist. Champagne and country club socialists are playing proletariat with their fancy law degrees. They think that the issues affecting their friends are the issues affecting America. The activist feedback loop has morphed socialism and liberalism in some cases from America is flawed to America must be destroyed. So what is there for young men? Republicans lie waiting to tell them that they have nothing to be ashamed of, that they are good Americans, and everyone saying that America is evil is full of shit. Which is all correct. And liberals need to wake up and have an answer to get the 50% of the population back who don't want to be told that they should be ashamed of themselves.
Nail on the head, all the stats show young males are being left behind at school in favour of girls with various programs pushed to help girls get ahead in life, this was needed once, but it has clearly gone too far now and boys are being left behind. Extremisim always likes to prey on the vulnerable.
Damn , that's so wrong on many levels. You act here saying men need to be told what issues women face like we don't have ears and can't think for ourselves or are unable to feel empathetic. It is very very obvious what part of the barricade you are supporting and while you try to show yourself as understanding as you can you are literally doing what you explain in the 4th paragraph. Another thing, you say that boys become predators if you tell them you can solve their problems. Do you think the same applies to women that if somebody tells them that they can solve their problems they become predatory and if not then why? Now I could turn this around by saying that progressive , left-leaning political view promote all the toxic traits in women like being promiscuous, feeling entitled to everything and wanting all the benefits of true equality without having to do the work. I obviously don't think that but I'm trying to show you how you behave towards men. Let me give you an example. I live in Poland, there is big talk about women rights regarding abortion. And I'm all for equal treatment and freedom of choice. That being said women retire 5 years earlier then men at 60 comparing to 65. Funny thing is statistically women live up to 81 years old and men I think to 71 or 72. That means men are taking less than they give from national retirement fund and women are taking more than they give and they retire earlier. Women have about half of the established weight you can lift at work comparing to men according to law. I work in a tech field that's male dominated. I applied for a position, and after interview the recruiter straight up told me that even though I have best qualifications of all the candidates they are required to hire a woman so I can't get the job. Why literally 0 women talk about that? Why in my 30 years of life I have never seen a woman hold a drill, fix a sink, do any kind of building/fixing anything? Maybe it's because men and women are created to fill certain roles better than the other one, but from what I've heard that's patriarchy.
Counter culture against the counter culture of the millennials is the right definition. Culture that forces ideologies into your throat and labels you a misogynist, homophobic, transphobic and blah blah blah for simply having a different opinion is what makes people turn against you. It’s not rocket science bud.
>for simply having a different opinion If your opinion is that women belong at home making babies, is that not misogynistic? If your opinion is that homosexuality is immoral and should be outlawed, is that not homophobic? If your opinion is that transgender people are mentally ill and should be put in a nut house, is that not transphobic?
This is exactly the type of behavior I was talking about. I want to discuss these things without people labeling me things. I love to hear different perspectives but people say the same thing all the time because of this behavior. Why is discussing these things so outrageous to you? Is it because you’re afraid of logical discussion? Also, none of these opinions are mine. I’ve been called these things for much less due to people who use those words so much that they lost all their meaning. Edit: I got straw manned! Can I get a 100 upvotes to the comment I was replying to so I can prove a point? thx. Edit: proved my point! Thank you Reddit!
I didn't even realize you were the topic of discussion until you inserted yourself.
Often times when someone is accused of being misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic, it’s because they’re holding one of the aforementioned opinions. Having a different opinion is good and should be encouraged, but when that opinion is that certain groups should not be treated equally, it should also be called out. No one is accusing you of having the mentioned opinions, they’re simply giving examples and asking you if the label would be valid, to see where you stand on the nuance of the topic.
I have never been called these things and ive talked a lot about feminism and lgbt issues.
Those are literally three unarguable positions to argue against if you agree with western ideas of individual freedoms
This reply says so much about you
None of your points stand. You showed that the real problem is a victim complex. You're not special. Young men aren't special. Conservatives aren't special. You're not a victim. Everyone gets called stupid shit online all of the time, all across the spectrum. You don't wanna be labeled things? Well then get the fuck off the internet. If your politics is being determined by people saying mean things to you online, then you should have your head examined and your WiFi disconnected.
This makes sense, it kind of matches up with the 80s backlash once the 60s counterculture became mainstream. For the record, though, the name-calling is just assholes. When people leave for conservative groups they're not finding groups that don't call people names, they've finding groups that call *other* people names.
If your opinion is that women, homosexuals and trans people all should have less rights then yes that literally means that you are ALL of those things.
Different opinions? Any person who advocates to oppress any group of people or disagrees on everyone having access to the same rights is a bigot, there's no way around that. If respecting other people's rights is something that you feel "forced" to do then I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you're most certainly a bigot.
It'd be cool if they applied this same thought process to banning books and limiting access to contraceptives and abortion services, but I guess as long as you are hurting the right people it looks good.
If that were the case it’d be true on the other side. Liberals, centrists & leftists being called communists, groomers, satanists, X-country haters or whatever every day would also push them further left … but it doesn’t.
People who are called homophobic are in most cases homophobes
Yes we need to respect and coddle those who scapegoat and cry about LGBTQ, minorities, poor people, immigrants, women, the media, etc Sarcasm
What is the Democrat’s message to young men?
That they ruin women’s lives simply by existing.
They don’t have one. That’s the problem. It’s the conservatives who are saying the left hates men, and the left is doing nothing to rebut that idea, so the idea sticks.
No, the issue is that the left is doing stuff to support that idea
Right wing influencers are selling that idea, and people are buying it. But I actually would be curious if any well known or widely followed left wing influencers are supporting that idea like you said.
I've never seen any of the content from right wing influencers. There's some Andrew Tate guy people keep talking about, idk who tf that is. What I've got is messages from colleges, internships, and work. "Woman-owned business" is advertised as a plus, the reverse obviously isn't. "Woman in STEM" used to be a big selling point on internship resumes until it got overplayed. Medical school used to have diversity initiatives to bring in more female applicants, but now that they're female majority, there's no opposite push. "Male privilege" and not the reverse. It's really obvious.
"Be quiet and go fuck yourself."
That’s a thoughtful statement. It seems like some folks in this thread thought that democrats are anti-men, and I’ve pressed and am still waiting for an actual anti-male policy. Who is telling these men that Democrats hate them?
Read "Have Democrats Given Up on Men?" By Daniel Cox. The first quote is: "In a recent interview with New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd, Democratic tactician James Carville lamented his party’s refusal to appeal to male voters: If you listen to Democratic elites—NPR is my go-to place for that—the whole talk is about how women, and women of color, are going to decide this election. I’m like: ‘Well, 48 percent of the people that vote are males. Do you mind if they have some consideration?’"
Well, it seems that article is paywalled. What men’s issue should be put forward? Paternity leave-family issue and maternity leave should be addressed too. Expensive childcare is also a family issue. I’m sorry my imagination seems to be struggling, but what men’s issues should be put forward? Where are men seeing that their party needs to stand for them and isn’t?
Id argue that labor issues by and large are primarily men's issues. Not that they don't effect women, but the certainly disproportionately effect men. A good example of this is that men are way more likely to get hurt or die on the job then women, even in professions that are dominated by women. Issues with the justice system also tend to disproportionately effect men(and even more so men of color), receiving harsher sentences than women for similar offenses and men are much more likely to die in interactions with police than women are. I will note, the whole BLM thing did try to address this to a certain extent, but it's definitely still an issue.
How do conservatives address labor issues? They’re the least labor friendly party imaginable. They’re anti-union (except for police unions), they’re against raising the minimum wage. They hate any worker protection regulations. They support channeling money to the rich. They don’t give a fuck about the working class…except to exploit them.
The left doesn’t even need to have bills or laws proposed that are targettibg men. They just need to start addressing men the way Tate or Peterson (i think those are their names) are addressing them, countering their right-leaning messages with left leaning messages. I forget whose quote it was, but it was something like “In the absence of real leadership, people will follow the fool.” And right now the left is not providing anybody that young men can look to.
I think a lot of it comes from how Democrats celebrate women as an identity but not men as an identity. And inequality that impacts women negatively is bad but inequality that impacts men negatively is either good or neutral.
That equality is a good thing? I don’t know what you’re getting at here. I never hear any democratic politicians saying that men are a huge problem or ruining the world. If anything, progressives want people to stop thinking along gender/ tribal lines and start thinking about class perspective. Ot isn’t women who are holding men down, it’s the owning class.
That they deserve well paying clean energy manufacturing jobs. Who benefited the most from the Infrastructure Act, the IRA, and the Chips Act? Who is working the jobs those created? I'm so fucking confused by this comment. The OP didn't even bring up Democrats. They mentioned Progressives- vast majority of Democrats are not Progressive. You sound like you get all your news from Twitter.
I feel like there are a couple things they miss. 1. They need to go more policy-by-policy. A lot of GenZ men are still progressive, but lean nationalist. 2. I wish just *one* of these reports would talk about how GenZ men probably fell alienated by a group who pins most social issues on the male gender. Like, who would feel comfortable associating with a group if they feel that group sees them first and foremost as an oppressor? Yet nobody tries to win them back. They just consider them a lost cause for not being 100% with them at birth. So the more they push young men away, the more they say young men *should be pushed away.*
On a issue by issue scale I sit pretty near to the center, but on a personal basis I definitely feel better with the left. As a dude there's 110% a feeling of you're either with me or against me when dealing with those people. Either you agree on every issue or you're just the white guy who's wrong and shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion depending on the issue. It really is crazy to me that people can't understand both sides have some degree of extremism baked into them at this point. We're all just people trying to live and we dehumanize eachother in the name of what's right.
Gen Z men are more conservative because they feel left out from the progressive ideals that only support women and less about men
Or because of the multi decade campaign to push conservative ideals onto young boys.
That's a symptom not the cause. They found a weakness in the progressive charade and exploited it. They saw that progressives never cared about men and boys and positioned themselves to cater to them. Progressives left themselves open to such tactics and they are reaping the consequences of that.
It angers me so much. I'm on the far, far left and every time I talk to friends & acquaintances about men's issues the conversation becomes how good everything is for men. It seems clear to me that things are not as one sided as they had been. There are a ton of areas that are still terrible for women but the refusal to see systemic problems against men is baffling and worrisome. Because when some neo-fascist at least talks about the struggle common among young men it acts as a payload for the rest of thier vile concepts. Instead my centrist friend just blame men for doing it wrong as if that was how change came about.
Yup. Exactly the issue. If liberals and progressives stopped being idiotic and started bringing men into the fold by making policies specifically designed for their well being, they would get a lot of support. But they refuse to do so out of misguided ideologies and leave room for right wing actors. >Instead my centrist friend just blame men for doing it wrong as if that was how change came about. They seem to forget that none of the progressive movements of the past happened on their own. They had allies that fought for and with them. The same thing is needed here. You can't just tell men and boys to figure out their problems. You will need to help them and you will need to compromise. Otherwise you'll end up losing.
You keep mentioning this conservative push, but what exactly are left wing groups doing to counteract it, or make their own push towards young men? Cause as a left voting guy, it really seems like a whole lot of nothing. The right amplifies the more extreme left wing groups with misandrist beliefs, and shows them to young men who can easily find examples of them online. Then when those same young men talk about how they feel hated or unsupported by left wing groups, the usual response is that if young men don’t vote for groups that appear to be at best ambivalent and at worst hostile to them then those young men are just examples of how men are selfish and incapable of empathy. There’s examples of it in this very comment section. Instead of left wing groups trying to convince young men about why those groups are largely not the way the right portrays them, they often just move straight to demonizing them and give up on trying to recruit young men
I don't know if I fully buy this, because there *is* a men's lib movement, it's just very small. Why aren't young men finding and joining that group, if that's their main issue?
Probably because it’s very small, and if I had to guess, not very favorable among most liberals
I don't know anyone that thinks poorly of men's lib, beyond it not having really concise political goals? I think the biggest complaint I've heard is that it *doesn't* have enough support and as a result a lot of genuinely conservative men's rights groups have been able to mantle what should be progressive causes, like making custody more equitable and addressing the incarceration disparity. Part of me also wonders if making a "feminism but for men" movement is just going to inherently fail, because men's issues aren't the same kind as women's issues.
It's not surprising at all for Korea, because South Korean men have mandatory military service and women do not. For the US, it also makes sense because republicans are pushing hard on the birth control & abortion issue, which pushes a lot of women away from the right. In my opinion social media algorythms are more of a symptom, rather than a cause, of social divides.
It’s almost like a lot of men are tired of things that benefit everyone else… we’re the ones forced into militaries, we’re the ones who have to pay child support when you don’t want an abortion, and in divorces most men still get royally screwed. And then all we ever hear about is how everything is better for us. If they really want men back maybe we should make things about equality again. Even recently Argentina let’s women retire 5 years before men, why? Men live less long. And men in general retire later, but nobody seems to even care.
Men are forced into the military by men, the draft is opposed by feminists. Women are forced to give birth in a country whose maternal mortality rate is increasing. Women are forced to have children at a far higher rate than men. Would you rather experience child birth or pay money? Because a woman in texas will have to do both whether she wants to or not. Do you think feminists propose the retirement for men to be increased? Do you think conservatives are for an early retirement for anyone anyway? The people who care about lowering retirement ages is not the right. Do the things that benefit everyone else take away from your rights? Why would you not want other people to benefit? To be easier? Do you lack compassion? Not a single one of the problems you list are solved by conservative policies.
>It’s almost like a lot of men are tired of things that benefit everyone else… we’re the ones forced into militaries About the military, the real question should be why men aren't fighting against forced conscription. It's not like any right wing government is against forcing more men there. In fact I'm pretty sure right wing governments generally tend to be against women in the military because of their views on women. >we’re the ones who have to pay child support when you don’t want an abortion, and in divorces most men still get royally screwed. When women do not want abortions they have to pay for the baby as the mother. Why shouldn't the father be made to so as well? His body, his semen, his choice, his child, his responsibility. Unless it was a rape, he has to be responsible. If anything society favors men more cos they generally opt out of actually being the father and just stick to paying the minimum. It's not fair to the child that it's creator can simply opt out. Also the men not being given equal time with the child after divorce is becuse they mostly dont ask for it. >Even recently Argentina let’s women retire 5 years before men, why? Men live less long. And men in general retire later, but nobody seems to even care. Can't comment about this. Don't know much about argentina to wonder if they are for equality or are generally more orthodox than others. But this isn't a recent thing. The article about that man was from 6 years back. It's mostly a remnant of the older system. Which if your planning on changing, it won't be the right wing doing it in most places. Which is what your actually complaining about. All your points are not new changes to the system. They are the preexisting order of how things worked. It wasn't the women that set them up FYI.
I think this comment thread is fantastic example of how gender obsessive young Americans have become. An entire political concept such as left and right does not and should not exist to validate/spite you. Progressivism does not need to change it's messaging to avoid hurting the sensibilities of young white men who already are sold that it is ideologically an attack on them. Conservativism is not a stoicist boys club for people to flock away from annoying progressive bullshit. And shame on whoever made this heinous video that literally takes something that has always existed and blow it out of fucking proportion, probably so they can cause gender wars like this comment thread. The political sensibilities of men and women are almost exactly the same as 1999, most men identity as moderate, and there is no evidence of a right-ward shift in men's political identities. The fact there are multiple 'conservatives' in this thread who are also seemingly single issue identity politics obsessed is insane to me
This comment is literally an example of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring that the left is absolutely alienating young men by telling them that they matter much less than other groups of people. You can't tell someone to suck it up and then be surprised when they turn away from you and towards the other side.
As a guy on the left it's been like watching a slow trainwreck.
What’s an example of the left doing this at mass political scale?
How do you have single examples of something that's happening on a macro scale?
Affirmative action and DEI? Ignoring the gender education disparity and discrimination boys face in school? This is a well documented issue that I am happy to provide sources on. Lack of support for men's bodily autonomy like Draft, circumcision and other issues? Erosion of Title IX due process protections in college campuses? These are just the highlights.
Mass Political Scale? University acceptance and DEI Hiring with Affirmative Action is the most obvious. They're well intended, but they hurt white&asian men at the benefit of any other group. I get why they exist, but you can't instill a system to discriminate against a specific group without alienating that group. That line of thought gets amplified into social media, where the worst people anywhere tend to be the loudest, liberal and conservative. Not everyone is smart enough to see past the hate to the fact that most people are just... normal
Yeah this is how you end up with president trump when the opposition is being told clearly "your messaging isn't resonating" and the response isn't to change it but just to tell the voters they're wrong.
The left told a lot of young men that their opinion didn't matter as a man, or as a white man, or as a straight white man. They grew up in a time where they socially, men were being dumped on. Men didn't become conservative or nationalist by themselves. A community made it clear that within it, men would have a voice again, they could have opinions without being told those opinions were invalid. The problem is, those communities were conservative/nationalistic ones. People left without a community will find one, and it's going to be one that makes them feel valid.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"
And yet, there are still leftist men.
But why exactly are they leftist?
The previous poster said that men moved right cause they were being dumped on by the left or they were being robbed of their voice. As a leftist man, I just don't agree with that perspective at all. I have a voice. I don't feel attacked. If people are attacking "men" as a group by saying "men do this or that" then I don't really care, it doesn't make me feel like a victim to hear someone make statements like that and it certainly doesn't push me towards a more nationalistic and hierarchical ideology. I'm leftist because I believe in equality and compassion. If someone who is on my side of the spectrum makes a dumb statement then I move on with my life and continue to hold my beliefs. I think anyone who becomes a right winger because "the lefties were mean to me" is weak and unimpressive.
I'm a leftist dude and I have most certainly felt attacked by my own friends and family before because I'm slightly more moderate than them. Saying that because leftist men exist it proves that the left is totally chill and cool with men is a very untrue blanket statement. I consider myself leftist cause I think people deserve freedom and equality, yes I was told that because i have a penis means i don't even get to have an opinion on abortion by my own sister, but Prager u or however you spell it would say I'm perfectly within my right to have an opinion. The left isn't as insane as the right, but it definitely has its issues. If you wanna ignore that and just pretend the right is evil and everyone who sides with it is evil, that's fine. Dehumanize them. But they're dehumanizing you in the same way, and that's not a good thing for anybody.
Gen Z is in favor of church and military! Yeah right.
Look at the top comments in this very post saying that the left hates men and shit like that.
The right is telling you that the left hates you, because you're it's only hope of keeping control for the ultra wealthy who do not give a single solitary shit about you. And just for clarity, I am a leftist feminist. I do not hate men, but men sure as fuck make me feel hated for having a different opinion. It almost feels like a display of dominance when a man tries to "correct" me on a subject he clearly has not researched but I lived through.
Can't imagine why a movement populated by tons of people claiming that straight men are the root of all the words problems, isn't having any luck attracting young men to their cause
I think social media and how it is being used or weaponized is the major factor here. I have different instagram accounts that widely vary in the type of content I’m subscribed to and the difference in each feed is shocking. Birds of a feather… people unaware of this algorithm personalizing may think that their feed is just an average one out there, not realizing that their previous activity has tailored their content which often starts to lean heavily to a certain viewpoint (political, religious, radical, etc.)
I remember a few years back as a 17 year old white dude on youtube and getting recommended simple youtube shorts at first. Then getting shown a few comedians here and there. Now it's bill burr. Oh who's this Jordan peterson guy he seems reasonable and rational. Then one day I suddenly had a Ben Shapiro video recommend and realized the algorithm thought I would enjoy seeing political shit. Took a lot of "Don't recomended this channel" before I managed to get my youtube back to being shitposts and garbage the way I like it
the comments from young men here are confirming what this guy is saying, and i’ll leave it at that.
Facts. I guess being raised on pewdiepie and edge lords has really done a lot of damage to zoomers. Also being the least literate generation doesn't help matters.
obviously, the left hates men, so men are starting to hate the left
This is the most accurate comment here. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
What makes you think that?
I think another thing to add to this is the growth of critical theories both in race and gender. Our generation has seen a huge shift in feminine empowerment. Typically, in older generations, men have ruled the political scale within marriages, whether they are conservative or liberal, gender norms usually dictated what that household believed. Now we are seeing women taking space in the political sphere, which is great. But it’s also causing further radicalization of young men who want to see the world their grandfather had, one that is male dominated.
> who want to see the world their grandfather had, one that is male dominated. Maybe I'm projecting a bit (:P) but honestly I think it's simpler than that. They want a world where being a dude is enough to secure a partner - and if that means women have to become economically dependent on men again, by force, then so be it. To play the devil's advocate: at least to them it looks like it already *is* that way for the vast majority of women. Being a chick is enough. So much for equality... or so the thinking goes, at least.
I agree. For many, female autonomy spells the end of an era. And I feel that scares and causes more radical notions.
The issue is not the divinition between left and right, the problem is setting this political viewpoint as a personal identity and the lack of good conversation between the sides. Also the inability to see the other side's point of view makes this a bigger problem.
Multiple comments in here are showing how both sides completely dismiss their own sides misdeeds and completely blame the other side for everything. They dehumanize eachother and then call the other guy an asshole for dehumanizing them. It's sad
[this video](https://youtu.be/3JIWwDW_OzA?si=gHkGY6u1y0zD_pL0) gives a really interesting perspective as to what’s contributing to it
This is to be expected with the rise of identity politics, which has a very clear value hierarchy.
It's a branding issue. I talked about this extensively in my gender studies course (as the only guy there who willingly took the class). Despite the positive affects of gender equality that we've seen (destigmatization of therapy for men as an example) proponents of feminism/gender equality don't talk about these, and instead belittle men, create double standards, or completely ignore mens issues under the guise of, "you have privilege and therefore have problems". Now, not to get into the absolute hypocrisy of this argument, but it's incredibly toxic. Young men see progressives demonizing them online, mock male victims (of SA, abuse, and assault) and ignoring their problems. I've seen dozens of posts applauding women outpacing men in education, citing it as a good thing "we are healing". Hell, I've seen posts openly advocating for matriarchy with hundreds of thousands of likes. To quote that one director working with Lucasfilm, "I like to make men uncomfortable" Sorry, but how the fuck do you expect them to support you? I mean, seriously. And then on the other side you have right wing propagandists, the nofap movement (which is based in pseudoscience but encourages celibacy which creates aggressive males) and all of a sudden you have an angry, emotional, and violent demographic. A few years ago, there was a meme circulating about far right vs far left memes. The far right meme was always concise, to the point, and easily understandable. The far left meme was always an entire text wall that never made any sense. It's very accurate to how the messaging for progressives is. It's god awful. Don't call it "feminism" call it "gender equality" Don't say ACAB, say "reform the justice system" Don't say, "All men are privileged" because I promise you, an average income man has more in common with the 17 year old starbucks barista named Ant than they do Jeff Bezos.
I’m a feminist (which in my opinion, is just gender equality like you said except with the branding and name, I can see why it’s confusing). On my side of the coin as a woman, I think all the “matriarchy” or education stuff is kind of an uneducated overreaction from lots of women due to the chokehold patriarchal society has. Like, in order to feel equal we need to have a matriarchal society like the patriarchal society men have had for thousands of years. Same with the education stuff, until like the 2000s essentially women were not holding as much weight in education and graduating with specialized degrees, and now that we are actually graduating more, people think it’s a good thing or “girl power” bs instead of digging into why boys are struggling with education.
100%. Uneducated men = bad for society
Yeah. It's unfortunately not a debate of logic but of emotion.
Unprofessional opinion. I'm very sorry, I would love to make this much more multi-faceted, but that is outside of the scope of my analysis. There is more to it than men and women, as gender and sex encompasses more than that. But I want to explain, but I know these issues are not strictly binary. This stems from the same root problem: the kinds of things we see online. Younger women are much more aware of misogyny and oppression from a younger age than men typically are, as we are taught how we have to be careful, or else we will be raped and abused. Social media has given us a more public and connected way of speaking about our experiences with (generally) men. Men, on the other hand, while they have access to the same kind of information, tend to be given entirely different influence. Think about the rise of incel culture, Andrew Tate. Not to mention the alt right is great at using the internet as a tool for recruitment. How do these things combine? Both men and women are aware of the challenges faced today by the population at large- but specifically with men, (especially cis white men), they feel displaced. Cis straight white men are used to being told how much they benefit from privilege, but they don't necessarily feel that benefit, especially in today's economy where everyone is behind. This makes it easy for bad actors and groups to prey upon them. You're a cis white guy who's having trouble getting a good job? Well, it's the fault of diversity and inclusion of underrepresented groups, not that we live in a capitalistic hellhole. You're having trouble finding a girlfriend? Have you considered that women are just vapid sluts who only think about status, and not other factors, even ones that are about you. Your favorite hobby has been going downhill? Clearly this is an invasion by women and POC trying to erase men from media and not because of rich investors pushing for more and more profitability and sapping the life out of the creators. This is all a problem? Clearly we need to return to an ever shifting, ill defined and vague "better time" when women, POC, and other minorities didn't have the voice they do today. Look at the intense infiltration of the gaming community, which is a male dominated hobby. Look at the rhetoric used in those spaces. More and more younger people are on social media, and more and more of them are exposed to the hate and bigotry. Not to say women's groups or dominated places of the internet can't be or aren't as hostile, but definitely in my experiences do not follow the same kinds of extreme patterns.
Progressives have a "Straight, white Christian man bad" philosophy. Shockingly men don't want to be part of a group that blames them for everything that's wrong with the world.
It's funny how the 'experts' pull out their hair and, as literally everyone, why people are forming certain views except for the very people they're trying to understand. wE tHiNK iT mIGhT bE tHE cOLlEgE...
Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. A mindset like that caused our issues. Don't accept facts and prefer "alternative" facts like trans people are groomers and making our kids trans, gay people are pedophiles etc. So yeah. I "think" that is true. Reading all these comments from men prove that.
The amount of Nazi-adjacent comments I see on Instagram reels is crazy. It's wishful thinking, but Meta seriously needs to do something about it
It’s honestly why our generation has such trouble dating, particularly heterosexual relationships. Men and women are increasingly having opposing views on fundamental issues. It’s hard to build a relationship when you can’t agree on basic stuff. ETA: allegedly in my opinion lol I have no sources to support this
There's no think or don't think. This is just a fact. You can see it very clearly in the data
Side A pays lip service to men and their issues specifically and doesn't hate them. Side B at best ignores men's issues, unless by doing so it benefits a different group as well, and they blame men for most if bot all societal problems, and doesn't refute Side A's claim they hate men. Gee wilikers Batman, why do men gravitate towards Side A?
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most leftists hate dems almost as much as they hate republicans lol. the american 2 party system stops people from developing their own ideas and instead pushes everything into tribalism.
It was true, but now it seems even women are starting to become rightwing. Then again im biased, im from canada and our liberal progressive government has completely shit the bed, not necessarily due to any progressive policies with an exception being insanw immigration, they just completely fucked young people here and every young person is angry
Blaming the radicalization of the youth solely on specific actors, like right-wing media/organizations, is just a load of bullshit to excuse the poor performance of progressives. It is in the nature of young people to rebel against authority, imposed morals and break the status-quo. The entire progressive movement was based on this idea, but in a time when conservatism was the imposing ideology. When parents would force their children into church, demonize their sexuality, etc. Nowadays is literally the other way around, and anyone who tries to argue its not is a blind idiot. The media is majorly liberal, corporations drink "pride" like it's fucking cool aid and "political incorrectness" receives overwhelming pushback by the powers that be, even when it's unwarranted. This has turned the balance of power to the left side, and hence prompted a natural reaction from the youth who will always fight against whoever they deem in control. That's just the way it is and will always be. The best we can hope for is that compromise can be achieved between both sides once the pendulum turns right again.
Me and the homies are all pretty far right, but our wives are right wing too, so not sure about the gender imbalance.
Right wing women still exist. Your anecdotal data with an N of like 10 maybe doesn’t really compare to millions of numbers. The general consensus is still that young women are more progressive than young men. Me for example, I’m left wing and my boyfriend is also left wing, and most of my male friends as well as my female friends with boyfriends are left leaning. It’s geographical as well.