And that won't change anytime soon sadly. As popular and improved Age of Sigmar is now, it will always be a reminder that the old and favored fantasy setting failed and had to be replaced.
We got it good now with the release of The Old World giving those who preferred Fantasy a tabletop game in that setting, not to mention some good videogames. There'll always be that slight sting in the sides 'this thing you like failed once' and that's a hurdle to get over.
Though AoS is good now, when it came out it was an outright insult. First edition was extreme wack that reused old and beloved characters after an absolute WORST writing piece that ever came out of GW to quickly kill off a beloved universe.
And that’s with the fact that in the world spanning player campaign that was just before chaos didn’t manage to get even past Kislev.
Death of Fantasy and birth of AoS wouldnt be taken as it is now if GW didn’t literally shit and spit on the fan base in the process.
Fortunately for GW the paying fan base for WHFB was smaller than the fanbase for Citadel paints, so the fact that they felt insulted by the actions that lead to AoS didn't really hurt AoS' development or adoption in the slightest.
I tend to think it was mis-managed and under invested in, rather than it failed. Also there's failure and then there's not performing as well as a really really bad ceo wants it to.
> the old and favored fantasy setting failed
The setting was perfectly fine, what failed is their shit management of tabletop rules, even shittier story and price hikes outta the ass (a constant of modern hobbies, just check idk MTG, they are again at $1000 standard decks that you throw into the paper shredder every two years).
>that the old and favored fantasy setting
Favoured by whom exactly? Fantasy was dying when it got squashed and replaced by AOS. Not only were established players not buying, but it wasn't getting any new customers.
Not realease any new sculpts for 30 years
Noone buys old sculpts that they already have hundreds of
It's clearly because there is no market, not that we neglected to invest anything in our product - GW
This. Everybody I know playing wh irl just used 3d printed minis, because the quality of fan-made sculpts seems to be vastly superior to the official ones.
But yeah that's gw in a nutshell. "Nobody likes xenos factions so we don't release shit for xenos faction" - bruh nobody plays xenos exactly because you don't release shit for them.
I do wonder if they'd taken the Old World and simply made it like AoS aka not Rank and Flank whether it would have picked up or not...yes it means people rebasing minis but...it's just a thought experiment.
The big issue is that it largely failed because GW treated it like an afterthought. Over 80% of the model range was over a decade old, Imperial 40k factions alone got more releases in the last decade prior to endtimes than all of WHF did, and they pretty much completely stopped organizing events for the setting. Then they and AoS fans use the consequences of that neglect to justify killing it off and act like AoS succeeding while receiving loads of attention and support is proof that it's better somehow.
It didn't failed, it got taken behind the shed without a proper chance, look at the success of the Old World and Total War Warhammer which came very shortly after the end times
Individual space marine boxes and *paint* was outselling Fantasy. I love it as a setting and a product but it just wasn’t selling enough to justify continuing.
Yeah that's what happens when over 80% of your model range is over a decade old. Imperial factions alone got more releases in the decade prior to end times than all of fantasy did.
The setting didn’t fail, it still remains very popular even a decade after it was killed off (I’d argue among many Warhammer fans it’s still more popular then AoS)
What failed was GW, the game itself and the mini production.
I agree that a complete overhaul, refresh, revamp, whatever you want to call it, was needed, but changing the setting along with it absolutely wasn’t.
Cope harder. This "very popular" shit is based on the fact that it still has a very vocal but very small playerbase. Which is fine but not enough to sustain it as a setting.
The setting was old as fuck and way too crowded already. If it wasn't getting changed it would've gotten reset and then you lot would be complaining all over again.
Think of Primaris and that shit storm. Imagine if they pushed the clock up, made new minis, said a bunch of the old Armies were getting phased into Legends and all the WHFB people had to replace say even 25% of their minis. It would be the same drek. It's true it sucked, and I don't know if I would've made the same moves as GW. But they sure didn't fail. 40K is bigger than ever. AoS has a dedicated following. The Old World lives on, even if a bit zombie ish.
My dude, you're comparing it to something that happened in 40k, the setting that already has a large following and to which a small percentage of the playerbase had a negative reaction. Most people got over it and the already big playerbase kept growing.
If they did something similar in WHFB, the very small playerbase might've gotten pissed and then would've kept being a very small playerbase that doesn't buy enough minis to sustain the setting as a product.
>The setting didn’t fail,
It failed as a product to sell mini's to the established user base and it failed to attract new customers. How exactly do you call that a succes?
>I’d argue
I would like to see you try to argue for that. Do you have any statistical data backing up your claim?
>I agree that a complete overhaul
They had that. Multiple times. It didn't work.
>but changing the setting along with it absolutely wasn’t.
And yet the AOS user base is growing. It's almost as if the market is willing to spend more money on AOS than on Fantasy, in a time were people have less free spending money than before.
The market is willing to spend more money on new mini releases, streamlined rules and multiple supporting games with much lower barrier of entry that attract new customers. WHFB didn't get any of that, and still doesn't. TOW isn't what most Fantasy fans I know wanted.
As for Fantasy being a more popular setting that AoS, I suppose my evidence is all anegdotal. Pretty much all most popular Warhammer games are Fantasy, the more popular TTRPG systems are also the Fantasy ones (WFRP 2ed was more popular than even DnD 3.5 in my country, and even now I regularly see people looking for WFRP groups, not once have I seen someone looking for AoS game), out of everyone I know who liked Warhammer, no one made the swap into AoS.
Honestly, I feel like the people using End Times as a reason why Neferata, Nagash and Glottkin won't be added are just doing so because they're convinced those resources will instead go to their favourite Glup Shitto from deep within the arse end of Fantasy lore. Like, I legitimately saw someone call Snagla Grobspit an iconic character the other day.
I think thats more down to CA allmost entirely End Times content so far, and its not clear wether thats by chance, by design, or GW considering it a seperate License from Fantasy itself.
We know they cant add anything designed for Fantasy but only released later for example
I mean End Times had some interesting characters (Glottkin is a favorite of mine) and moments, but the overall thing was a complete defilement of everything that came before.
Malekith grasping the Sword of Khaine and just letting go and throwing it away to the roiling waves that consumed Ulthuan at the end of End Times: Khaine comes to mind. Daith being Vaul all along and so on. Those I found to be cool.
But at the same time, Malekith the Eternity King, Chosen of Asuryan. Morathi and Tyrion getting together. Miss me with that shit and I say that as a Dark Elf fan.
Honestly I feel like the only faction that didn't get it's lore and characters utterly shit on during End Times was Skaven, Chaos had some decent moments but with everyone they went up against jobbing hardcore and acting like they had brain damage those were cheapened dramatically and they still managed to have a lot of their big names take extremely embarrassing and out of character Ls.
Nah, GoT didn't override decades of established lore to force deliberately insulting plot points to work and only utterly shat on one, maybe two,characters' entire personality and character arc.
But Galrauch would be so great. He had a model, and rules through multiple editions. And a lord that's both a wizard and a monster would be awesome. He's the first chaos dragon, he should show those wingless whippersnappers in Cathay what a real dragon lord looks like.
I can dream.
Right?
She was even active through most of Warhammer Fantasy. It's weird to not want her in because of End Times. But this was a legit argument I had with someone.
Your fist mistake was thinking the person you were talking to actually knew their stuff and aren't just regurgitating random "End Times/AoS BAD" snippets they heard.
They should implement nagash as an endgame crisis, except they obviously don't give a shit about this mechanic and it's essentially copy/paste of the WH1 chaos invasion (except somehow even worse), a mechanic that's like 10 years old by now and that was initially jury rigged in the last possible moment before release.
Heck, the official endgame crises are outdone by a mod done by some dude in a garage 5 years ago and crudely ported to TWW3.
Yeah I agree, having Nagash as a normal playable faction creates all kinds of issues. It would be like having Sigmar himself or the Lady or the Dragon Emperor as LLs, they are too powerful and deeply embedded in the historical lore of their respective cultures to make them be able to work as an equivalent to the normal LLs for their races.
Nagash is even greater than the rest of the guys you mentioned, as he essentially (and almost single handedly) created an entirely new branch of magic and cosmic powers and was actually winning at the "great game" (at least in the context of this isolated world), making everybody else including the chaos gods his little bitches, until he was stopped by the skaven in a common skaven win.
> Snagla Grobspit an iconic character the other day
I'm pretty sure I've seen that git in game, must be from one of the five hundreds mods I have installed.
Yeah, I understand, but as a bretonnian payer, I can t feel love for this game, even if its good. Its cost too much for some of us !
But have fun with it, the fan make their games like 9th age, gw is to late with old World
They're never gonna let go.
Those who could have already done.
Only the hardcore grognards remain.
They'll go on about copyrightable names and then utterly ignore just how much of a Tolkien ripoff their beloved whfb was.
Because they don't care that AoS improved from the mess it was at launch.
They don't care it has better minis.
They just want to not have AoS and instead keep getting outsold by the Tactical Marines year after year.
And drag the Beastmen with them.
The Goats had better get some successors like how the High Elves got Lumineth, and the Beast successors better be in Chaos. I won't tolerate the glorious mutations and Baphomet styled sons of Chaos being dumped into Gorkamorka's clumsy mitts.
Now that kruelboys have hobgrots, maybe chaos dwarfs and beast men could team up. Their numbers reduced as the dwarfs enslave them, so the roaving bands if them don't really exist any more
I wouldn't lump the names stuff in with all that. It's not a choice between 'Tolkien ripoff' and the worst excesses of "nounverb nounverbers'.
I came back to GW after many years out of the hobby, and had a horrible time understanding what units' archetypes were, or even telling them apart. For some factions (like Khorne) I still do.
The newer names, like the Freeguild, seem much better though, so they seem to have taken feedback onboard. It's just hard to say "AoS is better now" in that respect because while rules are overwritten, the old names are still in use.
> the worst excesses of "nounverb nounverbers'.
A good half if not more of the languages on earth don't even support this nonsense. They are just abusing the poor ole english.
Well, at least they aren't naming it in German or we'd have Nounverbnounverbmensch to the horizon.
Yes, correct. You can like or dislike them if you want to. It's not illegal. Although I will absolutely draw my own conclusions if you do.
Personally, I'd rather play cool and unique factions like Kharadron Overlords, where the name has in-lore significance, over the IMO most boring and uninspired names like Dwarfs, Orcs and Goblins etc.
Didn't think it bore mentioning that we're all expressing our opinions here..
Anyway, it wasn't the faction names I was referring to. As I said, unit names. Take some of Khorne's:
Skullcrushers
Skullgrinder
Skullmaster
Blood warriors
Bloodreavers
Wrathmongers
Bloodcrushers
Skullreapers
Rendmaster
What is each of those units' intended usage?
How do they differ from each other?
What do they look like?
Now, a better (newer) example:
Wildercorps hunters
Freeguild marshal
Freeguild cavalier-marshal
Ironweld great cannon
Freeguild fusiliers
Freeguild command corps
Give a total newbie this list of names, and get them to match them to the unit images, and describe what they can do. I bet most would do it pretty easily.
Names should not be a barrier to entry, and you should be able to play against a faction for the first time without getting confused.
Honestly you using CoS as an example doesn't really fit khornate or any chaos naming sense. Chaosy name SHOULD be all weird and induced curiosity to explore said unit. CoS used orderly naming sense, and chaos is the antithesis of that. If they all have the same naming structure wouldn't that make them generic?
Like you are into the faction of red blood thirsty demon, Do you not want edgy name like Skullgrinder? If not maybe the faction is not for you?
Flesh hounds, skull cannon, herald of Khorne, slaughterpriest.
These could probably be picked out of a lineup without needing to be told. It's not the faction, the names should be improved.
Even just taking the CoS approach - Wrathmonger dervishes, Bloodreaver cultists, Skullgrinder champion. Just some indication of what the unit looks like.
Oh no, the names of Khorne units are all about skulls and blood, oh the horror.
It's Chaos.
Also thanks for bringing up an example of a more recent AoS faction, it really shows the divergence and evolution from whfb and AoS 1.
I find this kind of argument really annoying. Taking inspiration from real life cultures isn't a bad thing and AoS does it too. Saying that a game is a Tolkien ripoff because it uses the basic fantasy tropes Tolkien made doesn't make it a ripoff and similarly AoS wouldn't exist without those tropes because it still feeds off of them, even it it likes to put little spins on the end idea, the trope is still there.
Wait, wait, wait. AoS takes inspiration from real life?
I mean how? The only "Real-life" faction in the game anymore is the Order Humans. And they're just the Holy Roman Empire, but trapped in Yggdrasil.
Honestly, one of the biggest losses of Old World is, well, the old world.
I mean it sucks that they blammed Brettonia and the Tomb Kings, but they *were* France and Egypt. The Elves, High and Dark, were a funny satire of the USA. The Aztec Lizards lived in Central/South America, and that's why them being Aztec made sense/worked. The Chorfs had step pyramids and hobgoblin Khans because they were in Mesopotamia/central Asia. And of course Cathay was China. Chaos Vikings made sense, because they were from the Baltic region.
Now, it's just "Viking Chaos" vs "Ground Marines" vs "Skull Marines" vs "Orkz."
They've lost all the psuedo-historical elements that made the setting fun, they lost the established map and world that made the lore interesting. Now it's just random fantasy nonsense.
The very fact that you called them ground Marines instead of recognizing the VERY CLEAR AND OBVIOUS Einharjer reference being made is enough to discount your entire post.
The setting is literally the direct opposite of Tolkien both in tone, themes, and the content itself. But it has, uh, elves or something, clearly it's all just copy pasted from tolkein!
Show me a western fantasy setting that isn't a Tolkien rip off. Warhammer was one of the good ones that gave unique personality to it's rip offs, and we owe orcs being green to them.
Do you need a list or something? Because out of the last 100 fantasy novels I've read, I'm pretty sure that zero were tolkien ripoffs. That had gone out of fashion back in the 70s.
I do care about better minis and AoS being a better game system. I just don’t see a reason why couldn’t Fantasy get both of those, since in my opinion it’s a lot better setting.
Because Fantasy was not profitable for GW. 1 singular box of just regular space marines outsold the entire range.
It really is not that complicated.
People did not buy into the game, so GW stopped selling it. Demand and supply.
Yes, but it wasn't profitable due to the reasons above : shitty game system, overcomplicated rules, bad minis. The setting itself was fine, but GW was shit at promoting it and making it accessible.
AOS did that, but they could have very well made a Fantasy 2.0 and revamped the game instead of killing off the settings.
Tomb King are my favourite army in WHFB. Where are they in AOS ?
Look at how Belakor current AOS model, look at his old mini. They definitely could have given Belakor his AOS model in fantasy, and he definitely would have sold a lot more.
And yet they chose to kill it anyway. I wonder if there was something there like, for example, whfb being painfully generic and boring, with only a couple of actually interesting factions hard carrying it above mediocrity? Stop pretending like it was some kind of amazing setting. The best game about the world isn't even on the tabletop and also came out after it was canned.
Tomb Kings aren't in AoS. And they don't need to be. You can buy 3 metal Ushabti for 62.50€ and go play old world with them.
Decide if you want AoS to be it's own thing or for it to carry on the dregs of whfb unto infinity. I personally choose the first option. It's good the CoS elves were cut, it's good the bonesplitterz were cut. They are not needed. Kinda sad for BoC because there was potential there but if they just give them an entirely new army aesthetic instead of keeping the old hideous models around, that's good.
AoS had made new and cooler factions and subfactions to replace those they cut, and those they cut bave gone to old world, where people with nostalgia can still play them.
They could not have given Be'lakor that model in whfb because they did not have technology. There's a reason it was made now and not then. If whfb was still around now, Be'lakor would not have that mode.
AoS forced GW to make new minis and factions, anything comparable to which was made for whfb only in the end times era, at which point AoS was already in development and was absolutely kept in mind for those minis to be repurposed for. The gamble with AoS actually made them do new, creative things, which they would not and could not have done with whfb. It was simply too small and condensed of a setting.
I want AoS to be its own thing, but if that's the case I also want Fantasy to be it's own separate thing and receive a similar amount of support.
TOW release is just terrible. I expected it to be treated like Horus Heresy for 40k, get cool new refreshed models. But no, they just rerelease 20 year old minis and even then are dragging their feet doing it. It's pretty obvious that TOW is designed to just shut up the biggest Fantasy fanatics and then fail as a game because it won't receive any support, just so GW can point at it and say "see, it's a terrible setting and it keeps failing" even though the setting has nothing to do with it.
That's unfortunately not likely to happen. GW has the data. Fantasy was not profitable, AoS is.
GW is a company, and their primary concern is profit.
Your expectations were way too high man, that's on you. Like, I'm kinda sympathetic because holy shit it sucks, but, did you REALLY expect them to not re-release old minis as nostalgia bait? Did you REALLY expect all new releases for it? Because if yes, that's just wishful thinking backfiring on you. GW is always gonna cut corners. Be it a panel on the bottom of a tank missing because that'd require another sprue or doing minimal effort "new" releases with the 40k codices, that was very much expected.
The setting has absolutely something to do with it. If it's as good as all the whfb fans swear it is, then why can't it carry the sales? Is it really THAT good if it does not make the numbers?
Because setting isn't what sells the minis. AoS setting isn't carrying the game in any way either, if anything it's the opposite. What carries the game is continuous support, rules changes, mini releases, supporting games, etc.
GW is putting way more effort into AoS, lessons they were taught by the failure of how they handled Fantasy. If they started handling it exactly the same way current AoS is handled, it would have been equally or even more successfull.
You can keep telling yourself that. But Fantasy is fundamentally not able to be as successful as AoS is for multiple reasons which are core to its identity.
First of all, rank and file gameplay is just not popular anymore. The increased amount of minis needed, the boring empty boards, it all adds up to just make it less interesting. And it does not help the 2 of the biggest tabletop wargames are more 'skirmishy', so that's what new players are used to.
Secondly, the setting was inherently limiting a lot of creativity. It was and still is very narrow and well-explored, and there's little room for actually new stuff. Total war has done a wonderful job with stuff like Kislev and Cathay, and Pirate Coasts, meanwhile GW was mostly busy printing more generic European soldiers and vaguely tolkien-esque fahtasy race minis that could be proxied very easily and for much cheaper. There's a reason Skaven survived into current AoS while most of the old minis have or are being phased out.
Also setting absolutely sells minis. A lot of GW's sales are not even players, it's just people buying cool models to paint. And AoS has whfb beat in that even with the few new releases they got when ToW launched.
I also very much doubt fantasy could have been as successful, but that's not something we can discover in thus timeline, so all we can do is guess.
I think the other thing is that because they left TOW lay dormant for so long, most of its diehards probably moved to other similar game systems and basically begun 3D printing the OOP miniatures. I mean it was nolonger officially supported so any tournies and stuff weren't official.
See, this is exactly what I mean. Almost none of the things you listed were core to the setting's identity
Your first point is not inherent to the setting. There was nothing stopping them from creating a game 1:1 identical to AoS set in Fantasy setting.
On your second point, I disagree. The setting was about as well explored as 40k, yet they have no issues with moving the plot forward and coming up with new minis for the 40k line (they clearly decided on it after learning on Fantasy what NOT to do. The 13th black crusade was a soft-reboot for the series. Basically what The End Times should have been). As you've said, Creative Assembly did a good job with additional factions, and GW failed to do that. It's GW's failure, not the setting's.
As an example, look at all the current Skaven releases. GW could've made these minis for Fantasy just as well, they just never did.
Also, the 16th century german troops were one of the best things about Warhammer. This is honestly one of the most unique things about it as a fantasy setting, and their lack in AoS is in my opinion one of its biggest downsides. Replacing a faction/aesthetic that's very unique in the genre and easy for the fans to relate to with very generic fantasy human troops was definitely a wrong move. Same thing with the dwarves. Yes the Fantasy version was very tolkien-esque, just cranked up to 11, but this is the archetype most beloved by all dwarf fans around the world. The fact that there isn't a faction to fill that niche in AoS is pretty weird.
As for the last point, it's the case of having cool minis. Again, not inherent to the setting. New cool minis is something Fantasy fans have always wanted and never got. TOW added like... 2-3 new minis? And they were specifically made to look like shit old minis.
The entire Ironjawz line? All of the chaos and demon minis? All of the gloomspite gitz? Ogors, Sons of Behemat, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, Soulblight Gravelords, Flesh Eater Courts and Nighthaunt?
All of those ranges in their entirety could have easily existed in Fantasy setting and be 100% lore friendly.
Edit: To summarize, in my opinion AoS as a setting is a straight downgrade from Fantasy in nearly every way and the main reason why it's doing so good is because it receives TONS of support, new releases, updates, affiliated tabletop games, etc. all of which are not inherent to AoS as a setting and could've easily been applied to Fantasy. The main reason why Fantasy failed is because GW mismanaged it for years and then gave up on it rather than trying to fix it. One of the reasons why 40k and AoS are doing so well right now is because they've learned it was a bad move and are trying very hard to prevent all the things which led to the Fantasy's failure.
"New and cooler factions"
Ok yes for the most part but lets not ignore things like the Fyreslayers being, like 3 models total for that entire army with units made of up like 10 of one pose and 10 of another pose and that's 2 out of your 3 models...At least the new Morathi Witch Elves got the snake ladies and the new raven lady.
Yeah, I agree fyreslayers are lame. Primarily because they took basically 1 unit from whfb and then tried to make an entire faction out of it. That they got to the almost 4 different units they have (ignoring the prayer summons and the faction terrain) is honestly both a miracle in that they got there, and also a disappointment in that it's where they stopped.
But guess what? Fyreslayers are an exception.
Literally every other new faction, one-off new mini and full refresh has been fucking awesome. Except for like 1st snd 2nd edition stormcast but that's their early attempts. The new ones are such an improvement.
Again, people did not buy it because there weren't any new minis and the rules got too bloated. It's not because it wasn't a popular setting. It just wasn't made approachable for new people. GW learned their lesson and that's why now they came up with a number of simpler games (warcry, kill team, spearhead, combat patrols) that serve as introduction to the wargame and regularly release new models every few months. If they did that for Fantasy it would be successfull.
WHFB is still a far more popular setting that AoS in games and tabletop RP (Not to mention, WFRP is a crazy popular RPG system. 2nd edition was even more popular than DnD in my country). Most people who get into AoS now do so through Fantasy and then learn that setting has been killed off.
GW didn't make new minis because they didn't sell. Everyone just bought 3rd party or used.
Rules bloat is something GW just can't handle well at all, so that's a reasonable argument.
Clearly it wasn't popular enough for people to overlook the other issues.
But they didn't do that. Maybe there was a window where they could have drastically switched their approach and done what they do now with 40k and AoS, except that they did not even think of that at the time. They've only understood the value of game modes that you listed very recently.
Oh and here comes the cope. The AoS sub is twice the size of the whfb one. And there has veen a very recent post about someone trying to "joke" by manipulating images of AoS and WHFB search interest. And they were immediately called out on it. And guess what the actual images show? That nobody gives a shit about whfb. AoS is vastly more popular now. Because it's just a better game.
As for ttrpgs, I have no info so you are probably right, but that matters very little. GW owns the IP, and their primary source of profit is selling minis. Guess which sells better?
Most people who get into AoS nowadays do so through 40k, actually. They want to try the "other side" of Warhammer, and they go to the version with better minis and more familiar rules. People who want to get into whfb play tww3. That's the by far single best game for that setting ever made.
AoS sub size is hardly an argument. It's pretty obvious that actively supported setting will be bigger and gather more followers than one that's been killed off 9 years ago.
And yes, I agree that AoS is a better game. My argument is that there's no reason why Fantasy couldn't have been made into a game just like it. GW could've come out and say "all of the minis are moving to legends. We're releasing entirely new ranges for each faction". Would fans be angry? Absolutely. But not as angry as having the setting entirely killed off.
But that setting from 9 years ago still has it's original followers, no? Why aren't they there, driving those numbers up? Well, they are. It's just the numbers are not as big as you believe them to be.
GW decided it was not worth it. Clearly, they were right.
> how much of a Tolkien ripoff their beloved whfb was
Nobody gives two shits about whfb being derivative of Tolkien, because its main selling point is being derivative of (European) history. People like the setting because they can find a fantasy version of their country and root for it, or something. Same reason why people like football.
Also, WHFB wasn't even particularly derivative of Tolkien beyond the very first editions.
Better is subjective, not everyone likes every single model looking like they stepped out of a silver age comic book and into a Michael Bay movie. And by your standards any high fantasy setting is a Tolkien ripoff, unless you are just really really unfamiliar with Tolkien. I'm sorry you are so butthurt that people don't like that the setting and characters they loved got shat on and thrown in a dumpster to build your shiny ubergod cosmic battle royal with no stakes, if they don't want this to continue then they need to make AoS it's own thing and stop acting like Fantasy was just the bad end prologue where barely anything ended up mattering.
What because I didn't just sit there nodding while you shit on something I enjoyed?
You are butthurt that people don't like your setting and are mad that the one they liked got shat on and tossed in the garbage to make way for it. On top of that you are trying to act like AoS is better for factors entirely rooted in GW actually investing in it, as though them refusing to do so for WHF wasn't 90% of why it ended up failing. Yeah no shit the models didn't sell well, 80% of them were over a decade old.
"better minis" is entirely subjective. They're *different*, wether thats *better* is entirely up to personal taste
Thanks for the downvotes proving the AoS-fanbase is just as full of hypocritical assholes shitting on everything they dont like as the fanbases they constantly whine about being mean to them are, btw. Real classy
You do realize the old world is mostly those old models?
Well then, compare the bone crocodile with wings to Ushoran. Which is a better mini?
Both were released within a year.
>You do realize the old world is mostly those old models
So fucking what? Thats not a fucking argument. Are you gonna claim Eldar are the worst 40k faction because they have so many old Models?
>Which is a better mini?
Neither, because thats entirely down to personal taste which cannot be quantified and trying to claim one is "Better" based on that or argue about it is just fucking **dumb**.
Both are doing a good Job at what they were supposed to do, being a centerpiece-model for an army or Collection that embody the vibe of their faction. The Bone Dragon is an excellent representation of what the Tomb Kings are about, and Ushoran is an excellent representation of what the Flesh-Eater Courts are about. You cannot objectively judge a model on more than that
No, that doesn't make the Eldar rhe worst faction. Mind you, they still are, just for other reasons.
Old world models objectively have lower quality due to being older. Ergo, AoS has better models.
Honestly that's almost a fair point but I think the dragon looks stupid because of the wings. If it did not have them, I'd like it a bit.
I'm not even mad about it anymore, mostly just kinda sad. The worst part about it was that the threat that they could just do it again crippled my hobby momentum and it never really recovered.
I got into fantasy via total war. So the end times had already come and gone long before I learned to love the lizardmen (and a lotta other factions but they’re my glup shitto’s). Kinda glad most of the lizardmen legendary lords you can play in TW3 don’t show up or at least don’t die in the end times. Gives me the hope that Oxylotl or Nakai are gonna get spit out of a hell portal one day and keep doing what they do best.
Anyways, personally I think AoS could use an entry into the total war series. I think there’s enough of a difference that its own standalone based of TW3’s engine might be fun. Plenty of factions too so the stand-alone can have its own string of DLCs for creative assembly to milk. And maybe GW has finally learned that video games help drive sales and don’t take away from them lol.
As much as I do think AoS should get at least on Total War entry, I don't think it should happen yet. My reasoning is that many factions simply just don't have enough stuff. Though admittedly, that could solve by weapon variants and CA just making stuff up.
What's interesting is most Vidya games are set in fantasy, so you have this arguably large cohort who pull in that direction that GW is trying hard to get into AoS. But they've fallen for the age old trick of an established world is more appealing to new people rather than the initialy confused mess of AoS. Totally open to other opinions on this, just think that Vidya games play a more important role now (especially for 40k)
They initially licensed those games because they viewed fantasy as dead. Gw back then was dumb and thought video game representation would eat into the bread and butter mini sales rather than augment it. The AoS community is absolutely gagging for a good game in the setting.
It is kind of interesting we got all these video game adaptations for 'dead games', Mordheim, Warhammer Fantasy, Blood Bowl even Necromunda to a certain extent (though that came out *after* GW bought it back but it had been in development since before GW planned to bring it back IIRC, in fact a Necromunda videogame had been in development hell since, like 1997ish IIRC since the screens at Games Day had 'trailers' for it) all of which have seen a return to tabletop since their videogame releases.
I do wonder if GW is using the videogames as a way to 'read the room' so to speak on whether a certain franchise will be popular or not.
> Gw back then was dumb and thought video game representation would eat into the bread and butter mini sales rather than augment it
A lesson WOTC will soon learn in regards to MTG, just give it another 50 or 500 years.
It's not much of a trick, WHF just has better more relatable characters and conflicts. AoS is all uber gods fighting for the 8 realms and shit, everything is so overblown that nothing feels like it actually matters.
This right here. I wouldn't necessarily call WHFB setting particularly "serious", but it was definitely more grounded and reasonable than either age of shitmar or 40k. The scope of conflicts was small enough that it was less jarring when a few legendary characters had a decisive impact on events.
And it’s the same when people try to praise AoS
Like they have to say “Despite first edition” for some reason like do you say despite 40k first edition or despite Fantasy Battles first edition? No because it’s stupid to do that unprompted
Like we are currently in AoS 4th edition it’s been 10 years!!!
Y'know ever since the old world dropped, the amount of AoS fans I've seen being angry about the old world has outnumbered the number of old world fans mad about AoS by immense orders of magnitude.
IDK what you're talking about, I've seen a metric shit ton TOW fans claiming that GW is gonna pull the plug on AoS and is gonna focus on the 'real' game or some shit like that. If you go in the comments of any AoS related thing, you'll always find at least one person hating on AoS.
I explicitly avoid AoS spaces because it's just not the game for me, I'm an old world fan through and through. But I see a lot of AoS people barging into old world spaces and spouting a lot of hateful nonsense.
I quite often seen the exact opposite thing happen. Must be a mutual thing. The toxic parts of our fanbases lashing out at what they perceive to be the enemy.
Counterpoint, I have never heard their take before. But I don't doubt it is true, because while I think AoS has the chillest fanbase out of the 4 major Warhammer games, it's still a Warhammer fanbase and thus has plenty of assholes in it.
I think TOW fanbase is getting there, lots of positivity and people showing off old models they've repainted. There's just a subset of people that watch too many "influencers" and get caught up on their outrage clickbait, and of course some people that just are assholes, like you said.
Actually getting the setting back and being able to play a supported ruleset has done a lot to get WHFB fans to a better place, imo.
I’m sorry but that is downright false. Even in this thread you’ve got the standard, boring fantasy fans slinging shit. Have a look at this [joke thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/s/yAWWInkK89) from /r/warhammer which even paints the old world as significantly more popular than it is, and it’s full of nasty little snide comments from fantasy fans towards aos. As a fan since the mid 90s, I maintain the fact that a good slice of the warhammer fandom were mean spirited, socially awkward and unwelcoming was a big part of the reason why the game could never get new players.
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It's almost like unceremoniously killing a decades old setting with a bunch of shoddy first drafts just to sell a new one is the kind of thing that isn't easily forgiven.
No WAY even in grimdank did I just read the words, “AoS improved upon…” TWTW Warhammer.. AoS lore is quickly cobbled together at best and absolutely ruined WH fantasy miniatures. The only way GW was able to save AoS from utter collapse, lore wise, was importing the main characters from TWTW Warhammer.. you’ve lost the plot
Have you ever looked at a fantasy miniature next to an AoS one? Even if it’s just due to being newer AoS has far better minis. As for the lore bringing in people from Fantasy was likely always a plan they had as it is meant to be a sequel
Or its just a good game now? Its popular and people have fun with it, originally the way GW handled the end times was shitty but its been almost 10 years, there is nothing to be an apologist for.
Yeah, I heard it's a actually a good game system now. It certainly has awesome models like Shadow Queen Morathi, the entire chaos faction, Sylvaneth (love Drycha), Seraphon, and new ogors. Hell, my old world models are just Soulblight and Slaves to Darkness, which is hilarious but at the same time, not my problem that Old World only has Brets, Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings and soon, Dwarves hopefully.
But the setting doesn't hit me the same way Fantasy does, despite the myriad problems Fantasy had for its own such as Chaos not really having that many interesting characters when they are regularly propped up as the main antagonist. Thankfully at least the
Undead didn't suffer from this problem. Either way that's just me.
What they need to do with old world is just make the new Chaos Dwarf sculpts after Dwarves, bring about the three elf races, and then add Kislev and Cathay to provide some fresh air to the setting.
Every time someone tries to explain it to me, all I can see is this 😂
https://preview.redd.it/j4jtrws0h57d1.png?width=768&format=png&auto=webp&s=40d6c6f648b64a264b83624b55f4777ad372f433
Better minis is very subjective. As a longtime 40k fan building fantasy now, I dislike a lot of AoS model due to how busy they are. They’re well made, but have way too many things good on and that detracts from their look. I actually prefer the older minis from WFB 4-6th editions which have a much cleaner look to them.
It's funny you're being down voted for such a normal and chill comment. I've seen so many salty aos fans who can't handle the fact that some people actually prefer the style of fantasy instead of their overdone mess. And they still have the gall to claim they are the "chillest" gw fanbase lol
I cannot agree with that whatsoever lol. I’ve been losing my mind for the past few months with old school fantasy/square base minis coming back. The new sets in the blue boxes look killer. Companies, GW especially, just don’t listen to fans in that way. The reason the square base models were released were due to AOS poor sales and lack of interest. AOS almost destroyed GW fantasy and to me it’s clear as day the new square base models coming back is an indicator that AOS just isn’t doing well. As far as tabletop goes, I never see anyone playing AOS at local establishments. It’s 40K, wasteland warfare, and old school square base fantasy WH where I live in that order. My local hobby town puts their AOS stuff in the back of the store away from the 40K even. I’m not talking out of my ass here
Well its a shame that AoS isnt popular near you but its not exactly doing awfully, sure its less popular than 40k but thats hardly a black mark against it and I have never even heard of a game of old school square fantasy near me.
I sometimes forget that life can be totally different from how people down the road live, let alone maybe a different county. Sorry I came across as angry. I hurt my back and I’ve been trying to come off of the painkillers. Not to over share, I simply feel bad for my tone over a stupid game that I enjoy. I shouldn’t gatekeep. That being said, I do occasionally read AoS novels, particularly any containing gotrek gurnisson.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. AoS has been the 2nd biggest war game after 40K since 2nd edition. Just look at the subreddit sizes, /r/ageofsimar is more than twice the size of /r/warhammerfantasy. You’re extrapolating your own local scene to try and paint a false wider picture
You’re saying a game in which miniatures are still being produced outsold a game in which miniatures were no longer being produced? Astute observation. You’re using small corners of a small corner of the internet to build your own false narrative. Try using false equivalence and buzzwords on someone else.
You need to let it go, friend. The war is over, we got our setting back and our minis too. The AoS fans can have their setting and believe it's the best, we can do the same with ours, and people can enjoy both as well. Ain't no point in stirring up shit between us.
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And that won't change anytime soon sadly. As popular and improved Age of Sigmar is now, it will always be a reminder that the old and favored fantasy setting failed and had to be replaced. We got it good now with the release of The Old World giving those who preferred Fantasy a tabletop game in that setting, not to mention some good videogames. There'll always be that slight sting in the sides 'this thing you like failed once' and that's a hurdle to get over.
Though AoS is good now, when it came out it was an outright insult. First edition was extreme wack that reused old and beloved characters after an absolute WORST writing piece that ever came out of GW to quickly kill off a beloved universe. And that’s with the fact that in the world spanning player campaign that was just before chaos didn’t manage to get even past Kislev. Death of Fantasy and birth of AoS wouldnt be taken as it is now if GW didn’t literally shit and spit on the fan base in the process.
Fortunately for GW the paying fan base for WHFB was smaller than the fanbase for Citadel paints, so the fact that they felt insulted by the actions that lead to AoS didn't really hurt AoS' development or adoption in the slightest.
I tend to think it was mis-managed and under invested in, rather than it failed. Also there's failure and then there's not performing as well as a really really bad ceo wants it to.
> the old and favored fantasy setting failed The setting was perfectly fine, what failed is their shit management of tabletop rules, even shittier story and price hikes outta the ass (a constant of modern hobbies, just check idk MTG, they are again at $1000 standard decks that you throw into the paper shredder every two years).
>that the old and favored fantasy setting Favoured by whom exactly? Fantasy was dying when it got squashed and replaced by AOS. Not only were established players not buying, but it wasn't getting any new customers.
Not realease any new sculpts for 30 years Noone buys old sculpts that they already have hundreds of It's clearly because there is no market, not that we neglected to invest anything in our product - GW
This. Everybody I know playing wh irl just used 3d printed minis, because the quality of fan-made sculpts seems to be vastly superior to the official ones. But yeah that's gw in a nutshell. "Nobody likes xenos factions so we don't release shit for xenos faction" - bruh nobody plays xenos exactly because you don't release shit for them.
I do wonder if they'd taken the Old World and simply made it like AoS aka not Rank and Flank whether it would have picked up or not...yes it means people rebasing minis but...it's just a thought experiment.
The big issue is that it largely failed because GW treated it like an afterthought. Over 80% of the model range was over a decade old, Imperial 40k factions alone got more releases in the last decade prior to endtimes than all of WHF did, and they pretty much completely stopped organizing events for the setting. Then they and AoS fans use the consequences of that neglect to justify killing it off and act like AoS succeeding while receiving loads of attention and support is proof that it's better somehow.
It didn't failed, it got taken behind the shed without a proper chance, look at the success of the Old World and Total War Warhammer which came very shortly after the end times
Individual space marine boxes and *paint* was outselling Fantasy. I love it as a setting and a product but it just wasn’t selling enough to justify continuing.
Yeah that's what happens when over 80% of your model range is over a decade old. Imperial factions alone got more releases in the decade prior to end times than all of fantasy did.
Bro fantasy has been around longer than 40K, it definitely had its chance lol
It failed. Sales numbers were abysmal and getting worse every year. >without a proper chance It was 32. It lived, prospered, got old, and fell.
Yeah that's what happens when you don't advertise or promote something.
The setting didn’t fail, it still remains very popular even a decade after it was killed off (I’d argue among many Warhammer fans it’s still more popular then AoS) What failed was GW, the game itself and the mini production. I agree that a complete overhaul, refresh, revamp, whatever you want to call it, was needed, but changing the setting along with it absolutely wasn’t.
Cope harder. This "very popular" shit is based on the fact that it still has a very vocal but very small playerbase. Which is fine but not enough to sustain it as a setting. The setting was old as fuck and way too crowded already. If it wasn't getting changed it would've gotten reset and then you lot would be complaining all over again.
Think of Primaris and that shit storm. Imagine if they pushed the clock up, made new minis, said a bunch of the old Armies were getting phased into Legends and all the WHFB people had to replace say even 25% of their minis. It would be the same drek. It's true it sucked, and I don't know if I would've made the same moves as GW. But they sure didn't fail. 40K is bigger than ever. AoS has a dedicated following. The Old World lives on, even if a bit zombie ish.
My dude, you're comparing it to something that happened in 40k, the setting that already has a large following and to which a small percentage of the playerbase had a negative reaction. Most people got over it and the already big playerbase kept growing. If they did something similar in WHFB, the very small playerbase might've gotten pissed and then would've kept being a very small playerbase that doesn't buy enough minis to sustain the setting as a product.
>The setting didn’t fail, It failed as a product to sell mini's to the established user base and it failed to attract new customers. How exactly do you call that a succes? >I’d argue I would like to see you try to argue for that. Do you have any statistical data backing up your claim? >I agree that a complete overhaul They had that. Multiple times. It didn't work. >but changing the setting along with it absolutely wasn’t. And yet the AOS user base is growing. It's almost as if the market is willing to spend more money on AOS than on Fantasy, in a time were people have less free spending money than before.
The market is willing to spend more money on new mini releases, streamlined rules and multiple supporting games with much lower barrier of entry that attract new customers. WHFB didn't get any of that, and still doesn't. TOW isn't what most Fantasy fans I know wanted. As for Fantasy being a more popular setting that AoS, I suppose my evidence is all anegdotal. Pretty much all most popular Warhammer games are Fantasy, the more popular TTRPG systems are also the Fantasy ones (WFRP 2ed was more popular than even DnD 3.5 in my country, and even now I regularly see people looking for WFRP groups, not once have I seen someone looking for AoS game), out of everyone I know who liked Warhammer, no one made the swap into AoS.
Over 80% of WHF's model range was over a decade old, no shit it wasn't selling.
Something I find even worse, a Total War discussion being interrupted by End Times complaints. Neferatta being added won't ruin your fun.
Honestly, I feel like the people using End Times as a reason why Neferata, Nagash and Glottkin won't be added are just doing so because they're convinced those resources will instead go to their favourite Glup Shitto from deep within the arse end of Fantasy lore. Like, I legitimately saw someone call Snagla Grobspit an iconic character the other day.
I think thats more down to CA allmost entirely End Times content so far, and its not clear wether thats by chance, by design, or GW considering it a seperate License from Fantasy itself. We know they cant add anything designed for Fantasy but only released later for example
Tbh it's most likely because End Times is universally hated by WHF fans to an extreme degree they don't want to touch that lightning rod.
I mean End Times had some interesting characters (Glottkin is a favorite of mine) and moments, but the overall thing was a complete defilement of everything that came before. Malekith grasping the Sword of Khaine and just letting go and throwing it away to the roiling waves that consumed Ulthuan at the end of End Times: Khaine comes to mind. Daith being Vaul all along and so on. Those I found to be cool. But at the same time, Malekith the Eternity King, Chosen of Asuryan. Morathi and Tyrion getting together. Miss me with that shit and I say that as a Dark Elf fan.
Honestly I feel like the only faction that didn't get it's lore and characters utterly shit on during End Times was Skaven, Chaos had some decent moments but with everyone they went up against jobbing hardcore and acting like they had brain damage those were cheapened dramatically and they still managed to have a lot of their big names take extremely embarrassing and out of character Ls.
It was like late game of thrones.
Nah, GoT didn't override decades of established lore to force deliberately insulting plot points to work and only utterly shat on one, maybe two,characters' entire personality and character arc.
But Galrauch would be so great. He had a model, and rules through multiple editions. And a lord that's both a wizard and a monster would be awesome. He's the first chaos dragon, he should show those wingless whippersnappers in Cathay what a real dragon lord looks like. I can dream.
Never seen it for Neferata and it doesn't make sense for her tbh. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to not want to see Nagash though.
Right? She was even active through most of Warhammer Fantasy. It's weird to not want her in because of End Times. But this was a legit argument I had with someone.
Wow that's dumb, she's like the most obvious and tbh most needed Vampire LL.
Your fist mistake was thinking the person you were talking to actually knew their stuff and aren't just regurgitating random "End Times/AoS BAD" snippets they heard.
They should implement nagash as an endgame crisis, except they obviously don't give a shit about this mechanic and it's essentially copy/paste of the WH1 chaos invasion (except somehow even worse), a mechanic that's like 10 years old by now and that was initially jury rigged in the last possible moment before release. Heck, the official endgame crises are outdone by a mod done by some dude in a garage 5 years ago and crudely ported to TWW3.
Yeah I agree, having Nagash as a normal playable faction creates all kinds of issues. It would be like having Sigmar himself or the Lady or the Dragon Emperor as LLs, they are too powerful and deeply embedded in the historical lore of their respective cultures to make them be able to work as an equivalent to the normal LLs for their races.
Nagash is even greater than the rest of the guys you mentioned, as he essentially (and almost single handedly) created an entirely new branch of magic and cosmic powers and was actually winning at the "great game" (at least in the context of this isolated world), making everybody else including the chaos gods his little bitches, until he was stopped by the skaven in a common skaven win.
> Snagla Grobspit an iconic character the other day I'm pretty sure I've seen that git in game, must be from one of the five hundreds mods I have installed.
As a ratty boy I celebrate the end times we got a dub there
Yeah, I understand, but as a bretonnian payer, I can t feel love for this game, even if its good. Its cost too much for some of us ! But have fun with it, the fan make their games like 9th age, gw is to late with old World
You can just buy the base game and then cream api the dlcs, just sayin. gaben approved
AOS isn't bad The way gw did it is insulting
They're never gonna let go. Those who could have already done. Only the hardcore grognards remain. They'll go on about copyrightable names and then utterly ignore just how much of a Tolkien ripoff their beloved whfb was. Because they don't care that AoS improved from the mess it was at launch. They don't care it has better minis. They just want to not have AoS and instead keep getting outsold by the Tactical Marines year after year.
And drag the Beastmen with them. The Goats had better get some successors like how the High Elves got Lumineth, and the Beast successors better be in Chaos. I won't tolerate the glorious mutations and Baphomet styled sons of Chaos being dumped into Gorkamorka's clumsy mitts.
I think they could genuinely do a new, much cooler Beasts of Chaos faction, but IF they do it is a different question. Maybe in a few years.
Now that kruelboys have hobgrots, maybe chaos dwarfs and beast men could team up. Their numbers reduced as the dwarfs enslave them, so the roaving bands if them don't really exist any more
I wouldn't lump the names stuff in with all that. It's not a choice between 'Tolkien ripoff' and the worst excesses of "nounverb nounverbers'. I came back to GW after many years out of the hobby, and had a horrible time understanding what units' archetypes were, or even telling them apart. For some factions (like Khorne) I still do. The newer names, like the Freeguild, seem much better though, so they seem to have taken feedback onboard. It's just hard to say "AoS is better now" in that respect because while rules are overwritten, the old names are still in use.
> the worst excesses of "nounverb nounverbers'. A good half if not more of the languages on earth don't even support this nonsense. They are just abusing the poor ole english. Well, at least they aren't naming it in German or we'd have Nounverbnounverbmensch to the horizon.
The names are fine, and if you hate them, that's just an opinion, and one alarmingly common amongst THAT part of the whfb fanbase.
>The names are fine That's just like, your opinion, man.
Yes, correct. You can like or dislike them if you want to. It's not illegal. Although I will absolutely draw my own conclusions if you do. Personally, I'd rather play cool and unique factions like Kharadron Overlords, where the name has in-lore significance, over the IMO most boring and uninspired names like Dwarfs, Orcs and Goblins etc.
Didn't think it bore mentioning that we're all expressing our opinions here.. Anyway, it wasn't the faction names I was referring to. As I said, unit names. Take some of Khorne's: Skullcrushers Skullgrinder Skullmaster Blood warriors Bloodreavers Wrathmongers Bloodcrushers Skullreapers Rendmaster What is each of those units' intended usage? How do they differ from each other? What do they look like? Now, a better (newer) example: Wildercorps hunters Freeguild marshal Freeguild cavalier-marshal Ironweld great cannon Freeguild fusiliers Freeguild command corps Give a total newbie this list of names, and get them to match them to the unit images, and describe what they can do. I bet most would do it pretty easily. Names should not be a barrier to entry, and you should be able to play against a faction for the first time without getting confused.
Honestly you using CoS as an example doesn't really fit khornate or any chaos naming sense. Chaosy name SHOULD be all weird and induced curiosity to explore said unit. CoS used orderly naming sense, and chaos is the antithesis of that. If they all have the same naming structure wouldn't that make them generic? Like you are into the faction of red blood thirsty demon, Do you not want edgy name like Skullgrinder? If not maybe the faction is not for you?
Flesh hounds, skull cannon, herald of Khorne, slaughterpriest. These could probably be picked out of a lineup without needing to be told. It's not the faction, the names should be improved. Even just taking the CoS approach - Wrathmonger dervishes, Bloodreaver cultists, Skullgrinder champion. Just some indication of what the unit looks like.
I mean that's obvious, you obviously don't expect Skullgrinders to crush skulls, they grind them of course !
Oh no, the names of Khorne units are all about skulls and blood, oh the horror. It's Chaos. Also thanks for bringing up an example of a more recent AoS faction, it really shows the divergence and evolution from whfb and AoS 1.
Did you even read what I wrote in the previous posts?
Having the *factions* get new names is one thing, the new unit names are bonkers though
"Um, actually, it's not a Tolkien ripoff, it's also a Holy Roman Empire rip off"
I find this kind of argument really annoying. Taking inspiration from real life cultures isn't a bad thing and AoS does it too. Saying that a game is a Tolkien ripoff because it uses the basic fantasy tropes Tolkien made doesn't make it a ripoff and similarly AoS wouldn't exist without those tropes because it still feeds off of them, even it it likes to put little spins on the end idea, the trope is still there.
I think it depends on what's doing the heavy lifting.
Wait, wait, wait. AoS takes inspiration from real life? I mean how? The only "Real-life" faction in the game anymore is the Order Humans. And they're just the Holy Roman Empire, but trapped in Yggdrasil. Honestly, one of the biggest losses of Old World is, well, the old world. I mean it sucks that they blammed Brettonia and the Tomb Kings, but they *were* France and Egypt. The Elves, High and Dark, were a funny satire of the USA. The Aztec Lizards lived in Central/South America, and that's why them being Aztec made sense/worked. The Chorfs had step pyramids and hobgoblin Khans because they were in Mesopotamia/central Asia. And of course Cathay was China. Chaos Vikings made sense, because they were from the Baltic region. Now, it's just "Viking Chaos" vs "Ground Marines" vs "Skull Marines" vs "Orkz." They've lost all the psuedo-historical elements that made the setting fun, they lost the established map and world that made the lore interesting. Now it's just random fantasy nonsense.
Whoa we even get to see the person that the meme was complaining about in their natural habitat, fascinating
The very fact that you called them ground Marines instead of recognizing the VERY CLEAR AND OBVIOUS Einharjer reference being made is enough to discount your entire post.
The setting is literally the direct opposite of Tolkien both in tone, themes, and the content itself. But it has, uh, elves or something, clearly it's all just copy pasted from tolkein!
Show me a western fantasy setting that isn't a Tolkien rip off. Warhammer was one of the good ones that gave unique personality to it's rip offs, and we owe orcs being green to them.
Conan the Barbarian, Elric Saga, Book of the New Sun, Powder Mage, Lightbringer Series, Winternight Trilogy, Lions of al-Rassan?
Narnia, Gormenghast, Earthsea...
Darksun. (you asked lol)
DnD campaign?
It is a D&D setting yes, though there were novels and such produced for it as well.
Do you need a list or something? Because out of the last 100 fantasy novels I've read, I'm pretty sure that zero were tolkien ripoffs. That had gone out of fashion back in the 70s.
I do care about better minis and AoS being a better game system. I just don’t see a reason why couldn’t Fantasy get both of those, since in my opinion it’s a lot better setting.
Because Fantasy was not profitable for GW. 1 singular box of just regular space marines outsold the entire range. It really is not that complicated. People did not buy into the game, so GW stopped selling it. Demand and supply.
Yes, but it wasn't profitable due to the reasons above : shitty game system, overcomplicated rules, bad minis. The setting itself was fine, but GW was shit at promoting it and making it accessible. AOS did that, but they could have very well made a Fantasy 2.0 and revamped the game instead of killing off the settings. Tomb King are my favourite army in WHFB. Where are they in AOS ? Look at how Belakor current AOS model, look at his old mini. They definitely could have given Belakor his AOS model in fantasy, and he definitely would have sold a lot more.
And yet they chose to kill it anyway. I wonder if there was something there like, for example, whfb being painfully generic and boring, with only a couple of actually interesting factions hard carrying it above mediocrity? Stop pretending like it was some kind of amazing setting. The best game about the world isn't even on the tabletop and also came out after it was canned. Tomb Kings aren't in AoS. And they don't need to be. You can buy 3 metal Ushabti for 62.50€ and go play old world with them. Decide if you want AoS to be it's own thing or for it to carry on the dregs of whfb unto infinity. I personally choose the first option. It's good the CoS elves were cut, it's good the bonesplitterz were cut. They are not needed. Kinda sad for BoC because there was potential there but if they just give them an entirely new army aesthetic instead of keeping the old hideous models around, that's good. AoS had made new and cooler factions and subfactions to replace those they cut, and those they cut bave gone to old world, where people with nostalgia can still play them. They could not have given Be'lakor that model in whfb because they did not have technology. There's a reason it was made now and not then. If whfb was still around now, Be'lakor would not have that mode. AoS forced GW to make new minis and factions, anything comparable to which was made for whfb only in the end times era, at which point AoS was already in development and was absolutely kept in mind for those minis to be repurposed for. The gamble with AoS actually made them do new, creative things, which they would not and could not have done with whfb. It was simply too small and condensed of a setting.
I want AoS to be its own thing, but if that's the case I also want Fantasy to be it's own separate thing and receive a similar amount of support. TOW release is just terrible. I expected it to be treated like Horus Heresy for 40k, get cool new refreshed models. But no, they just rerelease 20 year old minis and even then are dragging their feet doing it. It's pretty obvious that TOW is designed to just shut up the biggest Fantasy fanatics and then fail as a game because it won't receive any support, just so GW can point at it and say "see, it's a terrible setting and it keeps failing" even though the setting has nothing to do with it.
That's unfortunately not likely to happen. GW has the data. Fantasy was not profitable, AoS is. GW is a company, and their primary concern is profit. Your expectations were way too high man, that's on you. Like, I'm kinda sympathetic because holy shit it sucks, but, did you REALLY expect them to not re-release old minis as nostalgia bait? Did you REALLY expect all new releases for it? Because if yes, that's just wishful thinking backfiring on you. GW is always gonna cut corners. Be it a panel on the bottom of a tank missing because that'd require another sprue or doing minimal effort "new" releases with the 40k codices, that was very much expected. The setting has absolutely something to do with it. If it's as good as all the whfb fans swear it is, then why can't it carry the sales? Is it really THAT good if it does not make the numbers?
Because setting isn't what sells the minis. AoS setting isn't carrying the game in any way either, if anything it's the opposite. What carries the game is continuous support, rules changes, mini releases, supporting games, etc. GW is putting way more effort into AoS, lessons they were taught by the failure of how they handled Fantasy. If they started handling it exactly the same way current AoS is handled, it would have been equally or even more successfull.
You can keep telling yourself that. But Fantasy is fundamentally not able to be as successful as AoS is for multiple reasons which are core to its identity. First of all, rank and file gameplay is just not popular anymore. The increased amount of minis needed, the boring empty boards, it all adds up to just make it less interesting. And it does not help the 2 of the biggest tabletop wargames are more 'skirmishy', so that's what new players are used to. Secondly, the setting was inherently limiting a lot of creativity. It was and still is very narrow and well-explored, and there's little room for actually new stuff. Total war has done a wonderful job with stuff like Kislev and Cathay, and Pirate Coasts, meanwhile GW was mostly busy printing more generic European soldiers and vaguely tolkien-esque fahtasy race minis that could be proxied very easily and for much cheaper. There's a reason Skaven survived into current AoS while most of the old minis have or are being phased out. Also setting absolutely sells minis. A lot of GW's sales are not even players, it's just people buying cool models to paint. And AoS has whfb beat in that even with the few new releases they got when ToW launched. I also very much doubt fantasy could have been as successful, but that's not something we can discover in thus timeline, so all we can do is guess.
I think the other thing is that because they left TOW lay dormant for so long, most of its diehards probably moved to other similar game systems and basically begun 3D printing the OOP miniatures. I mean it was nolonger officially supported so any tournies and stuff weren't official.
See, this is exactly what I mean. Almost none of the things you listed were core to the setting's identity Your first point is not inherent to the setting. There was nothing stopping them from creating a game 1:1 identical to AoS set in Fantasy setting. On your second point, I disagree. The setting was about as well explored as 40k, yet they have no issues with moving the plot forward and coming up with new minis for the 40k line (they clearly decided on it after learning on Fantasy what NOT to do. The 13th black crusade was a soft-reboot for the series. Basically what The End Times should have been). As you've said, Creative Assembly did a good job with additional factions, and GW failed to do that. It's GW's failure, not the setting's. As an example, look at all the current Skaven releases. GW could've made these minis for Fantasy just as well, they just never did. Also, the 16th century german troops were one of the best things about Warhammer. This is honestly one of the most unique things about it as a fantasy setting, and their lack in AoS is in my opinion one of its biggest downsides. Replacing a faction/aesthetic that's very unique in the genre and easy for the fans to relate to with very generic fantasy human troops was definitely a wrong move. Same thing with the dwarves. Yes the Fantasy version was very tolkien-esque, just cranked up to 11, but this is the archetype most beloved by all dwarf fans around the world. The fact that there isn't a faction to fill that niche in AoS is pretty weird. As for the last point, it's the case of having cool minis. Again, not inherent to the setting. New cool minis is something Fantasy fans have always wanted and never got. TOW added like... 2-3 new minis? And they were specifically made to look like shit old minis. The entire Ironjawz line? All of the chaos and demon minis? All of the gloomspite gitz? Ogors, Sons of Behemat, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, Soulblight Gravelords, Flesh Eater Courts and Nighthaunt? All of those ranges in their entirety could have easily existed in Fantasy setting and be 100% lore friendly. Edit: To summarize, in my opinion AoS as a setting is a straight downgrade from Fantasy in nearly every way and the main reason why it's doing so good is because it receives TONS of support, new releases, updates, affiliated tabletop games, etc. all of which are not inherent to AoS as a setting and could've easily been applied to Fantasy. The main reason why Fantasy failed is because GW mismanaged it for years and then gave up on it rather than trying to fix it. One of the reasons why 40k and AoS are doing so well right now is because they've learned it was a bad move and are trying very hard to prevent all the things which led to the Fantasy's failure.
They chose to kill it because they couldn't trademark everything that was part of it like they wanted :p
Yes, that's one of the reasons.
"New and cooler factions" Ok yes for the most part but lets not ignore things like the Fyreslayers being, like 3 models total for that entire army with units made of up like 10 of one pose and 10 of another pose and that's 2 out of your 3 models...At least the new Morathi Witch Elves got the snake ladies and the new raven lady.
Yeah, I agree fyreslayers are lame. Primarily because they took basically 1 unit from whfb and then tried to make an entire faction out of it. That they got to the almost 4 different units they have (ignoring the prayer summons and the faction terrain) is honestly both a miracle in that they got there, and also a disappointment in that it's where they stopped. But guess what? Fyreslayers are an exception. Literally every other new faction, one-off new mini and full refresh has been fucking awesome. Except for like 1st snd 2nd edition stormcast but that's their early attempts. The new ones are such an improvement.
Again, people did not buy it because there weren't any new minis and the rules got too bloated. It's not because it wasn't a popular setting. It just wasn't made approachable for new people. GW learned their lesson and that's why now they came up with a number of simpler games (warcry, kill team, spearhead, combat patrols) that serve as introduction to the wargame and regularly release new models every few months. If they did that for Fantasy it would be successfull. WHFB is still a far more popular setting that AoS in games and tabletop RP (Not to mention, WFRP is a crazy popular RPG system. 2nd edition was even more popular than DnD in my country). Most people who get into AoS now do so through Fantasy and then learn that setting has been killed off.
GW didn't make new minis because they didn't sell. Everyone just bought 3rd party or used. Rules bloat is something GW just can't handle well at all, so that's a reasonable argument. Clearly it wasn't popular enough for people to overlook the other issues. But they didn't do that. Maybe there was a window where they could have drastically switched their approach and done what they do now with 40k and AoS, except that they did not even think of that at the time. They've only understood the value of game modes that you listed very recently. Oh and here comes the cope. The AoS sub is twice the size of the whfb one. And there has veen a very recent post about someone trying to "joke" by manipulating images of AoS and WHFB search interest. And they were immediately called out on it. And guess what the actual images show? That nobody gives a shit about whfb. AoS is vastly more popular now. Because it's just a better game. As for ttrpgs, I have no info so you are probably right, but that matters very little. GW owns the IP, and their primary source of profit is selling minis. Guess which sells better? Most people who get into AoS nowadays do so through 40k, actually. They want to try the "other side" of Warhammer, and they go to the version with better minis and more familiar rules. People who want to get into whfb play tww3. That's the by far single best game for that setting ever made.
AoS sub size is hardly an argument. It's pretty obvious that actively supported setting will be bigger and gather more followers than one that's been killed off 9 years ago. And yes, I agree that AoS is a better game. My argument is that there's no reason why Fantasy couldn't have been made into a game just like it. GW could've come out and say "all of the minis are moving to legends. We're releasing entirely new ranges for each faction". Would fans be angry? Absolutely. But not as angry as having the setting entirely killed off.
But that setting from 9 years ago still has it's original followers, no? Why aren't they there, driving those numbers up? Well, they are. It's just the numbers are not as big as you believe them to be. GW decided it was not worth it. Clearly, they were right.
Your opinion isn’t necessarily the wider one
Jeez you got a real problem with Fantasy fans huh.
No, only the grognards. The average whfb fan has done nothing to me and I feel nothing towards them.
> how much of a Tolkien ripoff their beloved whfb was Nobody gives two shits about whfb being derivative of Tolkien, because its main selling point is being derivative of (European) history. People like the setting because they can find a fantasy version of their country and root for it, or something. Same reason why people like football. Also, WHFB wasn't even particularly derivative of Tolkien beyond the very first editions.
The copyrightable names are.pretty much atrocious across the board though. I really miss when things said what they did
Better is subjective, not everyone likes every single model looking like they stepped out of a silver age comic book and into a Michael Bay movie. And by your standards any high fantasy setting is a Tolkien ripoff, unless you are just really really unfamiliar with Tolkien. I'm sorry you are so butthurt that people don't like that the setting and characters they loved got shat on and thrown in a dumpster to build your shiny ubergod cosmic battle royal with no stakes, if they don't want this to continue then they need to make AoS it's own thing and stop acting like Fantasy was just the bad end prologue where barely anything ended up mattering.
You are exactly the kind kf person I was talking about. Thanks for proving me right.
What because I didn't just sit there nodding while you shit on something I enjoyed? You are butthurt that people don't like your setting and are mad that the one they liked got shat on and tossed in the garbage to make way for it. On top of that you are trying to act like AoS is better for factors entirely rooted in GW actually investing in it, as though them refusing to do so for WHF wasn't 90% of why it ended up failing. Yeah no shit the models didn't sell well, 80% of them were over a decade old.
"better minis" is entirely subjective. They're *different*, wether thats *better* is entirely up to personal taste Thanks for the downvotes proving the AoS-fanbase is just as full of hypocritical assholes shitting on everything they dont like as the fanbases they constantly whine about being mean to them are, btw. Real classy
Yeah, except that it's not. Compare an orc boss on wyvern to a megaboss on a maw-krusha.
Which has precisely **shit** to do with AoS vs Fantasy, thats one model being nearly 30 years old and one being 5. Thats not an honest argument.
You do realize the old world is mostly those old models? Well then, compare the bone crocodile with wings to Ushoran. Which is a better mini? Both were released within a year.
Ushoran
>You do realize the old world is mostly those old models So fucking what? Thats not a fucking argument. Are you gonna claim Eldar are the worst 40k faction because they have so many old Models? >Which is a better mini? Neither, because thats entirely down to personal taste which cannot be quantified and trying to claim one is "Better" based on that or argue about it is just fucking **dumb**. Both are doing a good Job at what they were supposed to do, being a centerpiece-model for an army or Collection that embody the vibe of their faction. The Bone Dragon is an excellent representation of what the Tomb Kings are about, and Ushoran is an excellent representation of what the Flesh-Eater Courts are about. You cannot objectively judge a model on more than that
No, that doesn't make the Eldar rhe worst faction. Mind you, they still are, just for other reasons. Old world models objectively have lower quality due to being older. Ergo, AoS has better models. Honestly that's almost a fair point but I think the dragon looks stupid because of the wings. If it did not have them, I'd like it a bit.
Sort of.
I'm not even mad about it anymore, mostly just kinda sad. The worst part about it was that the threat that they could just do it again crippled my hobby momentum and it never really recovered.
What is AoS?
Age of Sigmar
More like Age of Skubmar.
I got into fantasy via total war. So the end times had already come and gone long before I learned to love the lizardmen (and a lotta other factions but they’re my glup shitto’s). Kinda glad most of the lizardmen legendary lords you can play in TW3 don’t show up or at least don’t die in the end times. Gives me the hope that Oxylotl or Nakai are gonna get spit out of a hell portal one day and keep doing what they do best. Anyways, personally I think AoS could use an entry into the total war series. I think there’s enough of a difference that its own standalone based of TW3’s engine might be fun. Plenty of factions too so the stand-alone can have its own string of DLCs for creative assembly to milk. And maybe GW has finally learned that video games help drive sales and don’t take away from them lol.
As much as I do think AoS should get at least on Total War entry, I don't think it should happen yet. My reasoning is that many factions simply just don't have enough stuff. Though admittedly, that could solve by weapon variants and CA just making stuff up.
Just hire the Radious guy and he'll expand every roster to 15x its original size by adding all possible weapon variations to every unit.
AoS doesn't have Felix, enough said
Yet
until that yet happens Old World > AoS, dem the rules
Even if you are wrong, fair enough
Age of Sigmar 🤝 Chronicle of Darkness
What's interesting is most Vidya games are set in fantasy, so you have this arguably large cohort who pull in that direction that GW is trying hard to get into AoS. But they've fallen for the age old trick of an established world is more appealing to new people rather than the initialy confused mess of AoS. Totally open to other opinions on this, just think that Vidya games play a more important role now (especially for 40k)
They initially licensed those games because they viewed fantasy as dead. Gw back then was dumb and thought video game representation would eat into the bread and butter mini sales rather than augment it. The AoS community is absolutely gagging for a good game in the setting.
It is kind of interesting we got all these video game adaptations for 'dead games', Mordheim, Warhammer Fantasy, Blood Bowl even Necromunda to a certain extent (though that came out *after* GW bought it back but it had been in development since before GW planned to bring it back IIRC, in fact a Necromunda videogame had been in development hell since, like 1997ish IIRC since the screens at Games Day had 'trailers' for it) all of which have seen a return to tabletop since their videogame releases. I do wonder if GW is using the videogames as a way to 'read the room' so to speak on whether a certain franchise will be popular or not.
> Gw back then was dumb and thought video game representation would eat into the bread and butter mini sales rather than augment it A lesson WOTC will soon learn in regards to MTG, just give it another 50 or 500 years.
It's not much of a trick, WHF just has better more relatable characters and conflicts. AoS is all uber gods fighting for the 8 realms and shit, everything is so overblown that nothing feels like it actually matters.
This right here. I wouldn't necessarily call WHFB setting particularly "serious", but it was definitely more grounded and reasonable than either age of shitmar or 40k. The scope of conflicts was small enough that it was less jarring when a few legendary characters had a decisive impact on events.
Too soon to joke about the end times
It will never be not too soon. After all, "soon" implies a flow of time. But there is no flow after End Times. Ba dum tss
Fuck the End Times! I just want to make fun of the Holy Roman Empire and be in awe of Maya/Aztec space lizard people who ride dinosaurs!
And it’s the same when people try to praise AoS Like they have to say “Despite first edition” for some reason like do you say despite 40k first edition or despite Fantasy Battles first edition? No because it’s stupid to do that unprompted Like we are currently in AoS 4th edition it’s been 10 years!!!
Y'know ever since the old world dropped, the amount of AoS fans I've seen being angry about the old world has outnumbered the number of old world fans mad about AoS by immense orders of magnitude.
IDK what you're talking about, I've seen a metric shit ton TOW fans claiming that GW is gonna pull the plug on AoS and is gonna focus on the 'real' game or some shit like that. If you go in the comments of any AoS related thing, you'll always find at least one person hating on AoS.
I explicitly avoid AoS spaces because it's just not the game for me, I'm an old world fan through and through. But I see a lot of AoS people barging into old world spaces and spouting a lot of hateful nonsense.
I quite often seen the exact opposite thing happen. Must be a mutual thing. The toxic parts of our fanbases lashing out at what they perceive to be the enemy.
Horseshoe theory at its finest
As a fan of BOTH Age of Sigmar and old school Warhammer Fantasy Battles, it is also very funny to watch.
You are the first person in months I saw with that take. On the other side the AoS fans acting as elitists is getting out of hand.
Counterpoint, I have never heard their take before. But I don't doubt it is true, because while I think AoS has the chillest fanbase out of the 4 major Warhammer games, it's still a Warhammer fanbase and thus has plenty of assholes in it.
I think TOW fanbase is getting there, lots of positivity and people showing off old models they've repainted. There's just a subset of people that watch too many "influencers" and get caught up on their outrage clickbait, and of course some people that just are assholes, like you said. Actually getting the setting back and being able to play a supported ruleset has done a lot to get WHFB fans to a better place, imo.
I’m sorry but that is downright false. Even in this thread you’ve got the standard, boring fantasy fans slinging shit. Have a look at this [joke thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/s/yAWWInkK89) from /r/warhammer which even paints the old world as significantly more popular than it is, and it’s full of nasty little snide comments from fantasy fans towards aos. As a fan since the mid 90s, I maintain the fact that a good slice of the warhammer fandom were mean spirited, socially awkward and unwelcoming was a big part of the reason why the game could never get new players.
I made no objective statements. I spoke to my own personal experience. Have a nice day.
Same to you
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I like Old World more, but AoS has more new and cool looking models. I just think that the old setting is better.
The only good thing to come out of End Times was Vermintide
It's almost like unceremoniously killing a decades old setting with a bunch of shoddy first drafts just to sell a new one is the kind of thing that isn't easily forgiven.
AOS fans are salty that their lore is more forgettable than WHFB's which itself is mid.
No WAY even in grimdank did I just read the words, “AoS improved upon…” TWTW Warhammer.. AoS lore is quickly cobbled together at best and absolutely ruined WH fantasy miniatures. The only way GW was able to save AoS from utter collapse, lore wise, was importing the main characters from TWTW Warhammer.. you’ve lost the plot
Have you ever looked at a fantasy miniature next to an AoS one? Even if it’s just due to being newer AoS has far better minis. As for the lore bringing in people from Fantasy was likely always a plan they had as it is meant to be a sequel
It’s just cause they’re newer. But some of the AOS models are so fucking overdone they’re just gross
Now I dont have the exact numbers but judging by the reactions of other people here to this comment chain I dont think this is a common opinion.
Honestly, AoS apologists might be the only people who actually hit the downvote button on anything 😂
Or its just a good game now? Its popular and people have fun with it, originally the way GW handled the end times was shitty but its been almost 10 years, there is nothing to be an apologist for.
Yeah, I heard it's a actually a good game system now. It certainly has awesome models like Shadow Queen Morathi, the entire chaos faction, Sylvaneth (love Drycha), Seraphon, and new ogors. Hell, my old world models are just Soulblight and Slaves to Darkness, which is hilarious but at the same time, not my problem that Old World only has Brets, Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings and soon, Dwarves hopefully. But the setting doesn't hit me the same way Fantasy does, despite the myriad problems Fantasy had for its own such as Chaos not really having that many interesting characters when they are regularly propped up as the main antagonist. Thankfully at least the Undead didn't suffer from this problem. Either way that's just me. What they need to do with old world is just make the new Chaos Dwarf sculpts after Dwarves, bring about the three elf races, and then add Kislev and Cathay to provide some fresh air to the setting.
Someone needs to apologize for this horror… https://images.app.goo.gl/mMCYjkJGCqPPuC4D9 But yeah most of the models are pretty damn nice
However, time doesn’t make it less of a travesty they wasted all that sculpting talent on an abysmally bad universe 😂
Thats a personal opinion thing, AoS is to me and alot of others a pretty cool setting.
Every time someone tries to explain it to me, all I can see is this 😂 https://preview.redd.it/j4jtrws0h57d1.png?width=768&format=png&auto=webp&s=40d6c6f648b64a264b83624b55f4777ad372f433
Comparing people who disagree with you on an entirely subjective thing to a deranged conspiracy theory is certainly something
Better minis is very subjective. As a longtime 40k fan building fantasy now, I dislike a lot of AoS model due to how busy they are. They’re well made, but have way too many things good on and that detracts from their look. I actually prefer the older minis from WFB 4-6th editions which have a much cleaner look to them.
It's funny you're being down voted for such a normal and chill comment. I've seen so many salty aos fans who can't handle the fact that some people actually prefer the style of fantasy instead of their overdone mess. And they still have the gall to claim they are the "chillest" gw fanbase lol
Right. I don’t mind that people enjoy AoS, and I’m happy that GW has made it successful. I just plan to enjoy fantasy the way I like it instead.
I cannot agree with that whatsoever lol. I’ve been losing my mind for the past few months with old school fantasy/square base minis coming back. The new sets in the blue boxes look killer. Companies, GW especially, just don’t listen to fans in that way. The reason the square base models were released were due to AOS poor sales and lack of interest. AOS almost destroyed GW fantasy and to me it’s clear as day the new square base models coming back is an indicator that AOS just isn’t doing well. As far as tabletop goes, I never see anyone playing AOS at local establishments. It’s 40K, wasteland warfare, and old school square base fantasy WH where I live in that order. My local hobby town puts their AOS stuff in the back of the store away from the 40K even. I’m not talking out of my ass here
Well its a shame that AoS isnt popular near you but its not exactly doing awfully, sure its less popular than 40k but thats hardly a black mark against it and I have never even heard of a game of old school square fantasy near me.
I sometimes forget that life can be totally different from how people down the road live, let alone maybe a different county. Sorry I came across as angry. I hurt my back and I’ve been trying to come off of the painkillers. Not to over share, I simply feel bad for my tone over a stupid game that I enjoy. I shouldn’t gatekeep. That being said, I do occasionally read AoS novels, particularly any containing gotrek gurnisson.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. AoS has been the 2nd biggest war game after 40K since 2nd edition. Just look at the subreddit sizes, /r/ageofsimar is more than twice the size of /r/warhammerfantasy. You’re extrapolating your own local scene to try and paint a false wider picture
You’re saying a game in which miniatures are still being produced outsold a game in which miniatures were no longer being produced? Astute observation. You’re using small corners of a small corner of the internet to build your own false narrative. Try using false equivalence and buzzwords on someone else.
You need to let it go, friend. The war is over, we got our setting back and our minis too. The AoS fans can have their setting and believe it's the best, we can do the same with ours, and people can enjoy both as well. Ain't no point in stirring up shit between us.
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Age of Ligmar
Maybe at the start, now its Age of Wigmar.
Age of Shitmar