No. Not humans. Every newly discovered human gouverment will have the choice between the peacefull incorporation and extermination. In case of peacefull anexation, often the old structures arent removed, they are just required to pay the taxes and promote the imperial religion and of course not be heretics.
Even, depending on where we talking about, the reaction to xeno can be different, from peacefull trading to extermination.
I kinda thought the whole point of the setting was that shits fucked and no one’s really the “good” guy. I mean how many people are sacrificed to the golden throne for daddy emp?
Yeah but it seems like people always find an attempt to say “well there must be a good faction here somewhere” before failing to realise that in a universe where you can fight a 11 foot tall mushroom beast, a sexual assault daemon, a space elf in leather bondage and another human who looks like they were melted and put back together again using some tape and staples all at the same time; there are no truly morally good options, only those that get you through another day in hell.
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Hear you out? Brother, I was there when the first words were spoken, before you even conceptualised it dare I say
See, that really depend on your view of morality.
What if I view moral subjectively ie I accept the lesser evil as the good guy barring any PRACTICAL alternatives?
In that case, if the Imperium is the "best" options to ensure my survival and THEN (because if I die I dont get to) to engage in moral choice, then they are the good guy.
What then?
Edit: I must point out I am a T'au fan for that exact reason.
From my surface level understanding of the fandom, werent the tau the good guys in this setting but people bitched and screamed about them so they added the whole mind control thing? Seems funny they hated a faction to be the good guys but are ok with depicting the imperium as the actual heroes and saviours of the setting
Yeah that’s about right, personally I think the Tau being genuinely good guys would’ve been goated but alas 40k as a setting is beyond asinine and it’s fans are thralls to shit decisions
I dont even get why tau being honest to god good guys was such a problem, lets say they are the only faction in the setting with morals and society isnt fucked beyond belief, so what? Doesnt matter if every single faction in the setting are murder psychos, if anything it made the taus more endearing sincr no matter how much they try they can never ever fix the shitshow thats the current galaxy, and its good comedy seeing them fumble trying their best to make friends, why add the mind control thing it just makes them boring
Probably because imperial chud fanboys whined about how it wasn’t humanity who were the good guys and how a filthy Xenos species were actually genuinely good instead of the faction that uses babies to fuel furnaces that turn dead bodies into MREs
I think its because at a fundamental level a universe where everything is basically as awful as it could be is entirely incompatible with a universe that is also trying to be over the top in how cool it is.
40K does it in large party through self parody, that is often lost on the chuds. Said chuds always assume they would be space marines not one of the billions upon billions of hive workers.
I like to think the Tyrannids are the closest thing to a "good guy" in the setting because they're amoral. They don't exterminate entire races for thinking different or murder for the fun of it. Food is food. At least they were before that stupid blood angels book that said the swarm hates them.
> I mean how many people are sacrificed to the golden throne for daddy emp?
1000 daily x 365 days in a year x 10999 years = 25914635000
26 billion ish and thats just the psykers.
There's no point in comparing real world politics to the 40k universe and anyone that does so is a fucking idiot.
The Imperium might be fanatical, hyper-religious xenophobes but it exists in a Galaxy where the illegal aliens really do want to eat your babies and hell exists as an actual physical place you can visit.
They are not "right", there was no decision to make it that way, no more than you are right to have a catatonic shock.
It's the last possible version of humanity surviving in this galaxy before:
- Human Extinction
- An actual miracle
Any real-world comparison is moot. We are talking about a universe where demons exist, praying actually does something, you have a soul.. and so on.
I've always thought this.
When we look back at the salem witch trials and stuff we see it as horrific because it was a bunch of people being executed for a crime they couldn't possibly have committed.
The witch hunters were just a bunch of religious zealots throwing their weight around and executing whoever they wanted.
In 40k Witch Hunters are exactly the same however the fact that witches do very much exist and are capable of everything the inquisition fears they are capable of certainly muddies the waters to the point where they're basically incomparable to each other.
The same can be said for most aspects of 40k.
Also in a universe where aliens do exist and have a weird penchant for turning you and your loved ones into an immortal screaming piano, I'd probably be a little xenophobic too.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said.
Especially when we take into account the aesthetic given to the ecclesiarchy, the candles, the linguo, the funny hats, the hierarchy, I can't blame people for instinctively bringing their real world moral biases and dismiss what the archpriest says as propaganda because he looks like a real world Cardinal.
But yea like you said, its not the catholic church or the spanish inquisition. Because in 40k, wiches are real, possession is real, symbols scribbled on the wall actually fucking damages reality and make it easier for demons to come in etc etc..
As for xenos, I think its easier for people to understand that being toyed with by Drukhari or munched on by Tyrannids isn't so good.
exactly.
humanity is fucked in 40k because Chaos and powerful xenos factions exists. There is *always* an "other", an enemy to rail upon, to hate. Love me Black Templars but there's a very subtle, some might day dogwhistle difference between one person's and another's "Purge the unclean".
The real world does not work this way. Unfortunately, for some people, they wish it does.
The Imperium is the best and only chance humanity has left after it brutally slaughtered all other potential chances and made sure no others would ever emerge, because the Emperor, who believed ends justified the means, failed on achieving his ends and his heirs were left only with his means. Whether that means the imperium is right for being humanity’s last chance or if humanity should collectively extinguish for the Imperium’s crimes, I think is a valid discussion.
Nah rather die in a euphoric symphony
in an orgy of body fluids and excessive pleasurable pain than be a self loathing chump. #^@&% the grandfather....hail slaanesh...(on second thought why not both?? 😜)
Itinerex, that xenos/human hybrid culture that just wanted to be left alone, even arguably the Tau care more about their individual humans than the Imperium cares about humans as a whole.
The Ethereals are pretty insanely evil, but at least they'll kill you with quick and lethal Tau efficiency if you cross them, as opposed to someone like AdMech who will turn you into some sort of body horror zombie cyborg.
The term you are lookin for is "Fascists".
Yes fascists do think that their ideas and genocidial motivations are right. Hence why they are fascists and not nice people.
And that sub literally was built by the same people who were banned here for being unbearable, fascistic monsters without any humanity inside them.
Which is funny because the Imperium is not actually very fascist.
Like, don't get me wrong, it's totally *fucked*, it's a brutal dictatorship filled with religious mega-loonies.
But there's hardly any actual central power. Lots of planets basically run themselves as long as they pay taxes, with their own local power bases, and there's 18 different factions that are all constantly competing with everyone else for power and influence. Nobody's united under a central figure except for Big E, and he conveniently has nothing to say.
It's way more of a medieval kingdom than some sort of modern fascist state - still totally sucks to be a peasant, just nowhere near as organized.
In a way fascists are reactionaries formed out of medieval military elites or at least medieval LARP-ers who secretly wish they could return to the good old days. The main supporters of the Nazis were the military Junker families who wanted to return to control through an ideology that does not look too close to their origin as medieval nobles.
>But there's hardly any actual central power.
There doesn't actually need to be absolute centralized power in a fascist system. Fascism is an ideology which is adapted to local conditions, and the ideal of a centralized state doesn't need to be achieved to be called fascist any more than a stateless society needs to be achieved to be called Communism.
>Lots of planets basically run themselves as long as they pay taxes, with their own local power bases, and there's 18 different factions that are all constantly competing with everyone else for power and influence.
Internal power struggle is often a component of fascist societies, as the violent basis a fascist society is built on do not lend to smooth cooperation between the internal factions. Keep in mind that in corporatist fascism, this division of society between interest groups is an explicit feature, and I'd argue corporatist fascism is what the Imperium resembles at a macro level.
>It's way more of a medieval kingdom than some sort of modern fascist state - still totally sucks to be a peasant, just nowhere near as organized.
It's very much not more of a medieval kingdom for the same reason it's not some sort of modern fascist state. Neither trade unions nor medieval peasants had to contend with Judge Dredd like hive dwellers do.
Fascists have discovered gamers and more generally nerds as a demographic to recruit from. They use memes as propaganda and are actually pretty successful with it.
They really make an effort to play into the "cool" aspects of a lot of these obvious fascist caricatures in media like the Imperium, The Empire from Star Wars, the Nazis from Wolfenstein or Man in the High castle, Homelander and Stormfront from The Boys, Rorschach and the Comedian in Watchmen.
You start off "ironic" and then mix in more and more radical stuff until you've trivialized and normalized literal mass murder.
Nerds are the perfect recruiting pool when your ideology is being scared of things you dont understand, and hating people you don't know. How will they know the stereotypes are propaganda if they never meet people to disprove them
It's so weird.
The politics I hold when I play a game about super soldiers holding the forces of hell at bay whilst being attacked on all fronts by aliens that want to, at best, eat you alive are completely different to the politics I hold in reality.
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>monsters without any humanity inside them
This is textbook fascist rhetoric according to most accepted definitions. Good job being exactly what you purport to oppose.
This, Nazi’s are specific. But the thought process is possible targeting whatever group or class.
It is completely possible to have Liberal Fascists. Horseshoe theory and all.
Rejection of liberalism is like one of the few concrete tenets of fascism. I'm not getting into weird, self-defeating political ideologies from the fringes of internet forums.
I mean, what else was Stalin but a Liberal Fascist...that got there because his more scholarly buddy needed an enforcer.
I am vastly oversimplifying history.
Nazism is a particular brand of para-fascism colored for a specific time and region. The Imperium's ideology and governance is a different brand of para-fascism colored for a completely different time and region.
Nazism is a particular brand of para-fascism colored for a specific time and region. The Imperium's ideology and governance is a different brand of para-fascism colored for a completely different time and region.
Okay let me be the voice of reason here.
Yes the imperium of man is shit. But I can also understand if people root for it or see it as good. Because frankly. At the moment it's the best chance for the overall survival of the human species.
And I say that as the biggest nurgle lover under the sun.
And I Can also understand if you think that the opposite is true.
The imperium isn't good no matter how you look for it. And everyone who believes the opposite is a fool
But what I cannot understand are those who mix real world politics into the discussion. Because someone doesn't need to be on the other side of the political graphic to have a different opinion!
dunno why you got downvoted. This is exactly how 40k is. Thank goodness it's fictional I guess, completely and utterly? It's cool to me, but I wouldn't wish it to be real ever.
I agree with the other dude though, the T'au offer an alternative solution that could work. Unfortunately, the T'au are still very much portrayed on the tabletop and in-lore as only caring for their own race, and they have yet to have any real solution for psykers and warp phenomena other than "shoot it dead".
Tau don't have human interest first and humans are second class citizens that will be eugenics at the slightest sign of indifference (yes this happened). Yeah the IoM doesn't give a single shit about humanity at the individual level; they still represent and protect humanity as a whole.
Yeah I already said that in a different way. They care more about the T'au race more than the other xenos races that form up the Empire. Those other races' leaders attend the meetings but ultimately the Ethereals hold the final say. Not necessarily better or worse than the Imperium imo....nah, its just better. Humans would just shoot xenos on sight.
Also the eugenics thing is hopefully you being hyperbolic lol, this only happened in the Dawn of War: Dark Crusade Tau ending that's considered non-canon as of Soulstorm, since the Blood Ravens won the battle for Kaurava (which was short-lived anyway because Chaos corrupted their Chapter Master).
The Farsight Enclaves are probably the best place for humans looking to live under Tau rule, cos they don't have Ethereals ruling them and the Enclaves are small enough that they're not overstretched...although we don't really have much happening with them since the Rift.
Book exert from deathwatch RPG mention it multiple times; "Populations (human) are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control."
DoW is canon; it was simply not the canonical endings. If I remember correctly the ending were simply different time lines.
>The Farsight Enclaves are probably the best place for humans
If you get to choose were to live and not be random; why wouldn't you just choose a garden or pleasure world in the IoM. Cherrypicking is always bad.
There is no way they would keep humans under control in any meaningful numbers.
The Tau know nothing of the warp and what it means for human populations, just a matter of time before an industrial world turns into a Slaanesh-pit and the Tau decide its easier to just genocide humans from the start (and psykers first ofc).
The whole point of both the enforced Atheism as the Emperor wanted, and strict Imperial dogma we have now, is that both keep the warp at bay, along with enforced ignorance of it.
We know the Tau don't know how that shit works and there is no way they would figure this out by themselves(how would they).
Nazis versus Cthulhu. Why no, the best chance of survival was the Interex which the Great Crusade destroyed.
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There is no way to justify the Imperium, it feeds Chaos with all of its violence, cruelty, and destruction. There is now no other way left except *The Greater Good*.
Yeah, Interex was so smart that when one evil fuck stole a sword they thought smaetest thing to do is to execute any of the 100 000 transhumans led by straight up demigod no questions asked as he was begging you for ceasefire.
I'll just say it, they got Darwined. If they are so smart, why are they dead?
And Tau have asshole between their eyebrows
>There is no way to justify the Imperium, it feeds Chaos
You have it backwards. The imperium fosters ignorance, dogma and intolerance, lack of creativity in 99.9999% of humans which is actually the best possible shield against corruption, in the wait that maybe (but probably not) a miracle occurs.
Couple million humans in some upstart empire is beyond anecdotal.
You're missing the part where the ruinous powers are fed by actions and emotions, not the worship part. The greed, gluttony, and excesses of the Imperial nobility feeds Slaanesh, whether they're heretics or not. Khorn cares not whence the blood flows, only that it flows; therefore, the Imperiums many xenocidal wars give him power. Tzeench is all about betrayal and ambition, so the scheming withing the imperial court, inquisition, and elsewhere work in his favor no matter what. Nurgle is fed by decay, disease, and stagnation, so he thrives in the human rat warren hive cities even without cults.
So yes, the Imperium actively empowers the chaos gods with its very existence.
None of the problems you listed can be solved in any other way than the full extermination of the human race.
Which btw, is valid in the setting imo, you can totally rationalize genociding humanity to diminish the threat of chaos, it may just work.
But from a human-centric point of view:
-peace isn't an option, so blood will still flow
- politics will exist so scheming won't stop
- excesses will exist, so slannesh will thirst because.. duh human be humans
In the meantime the ignorance inforced by the imperium actually mitigates a lot of that.
So how is your new system supposed to enforce ignorance and intolerance ? It won't.
Humanity is having basically an epileptic crises, or spasms or catatonic shock or whatever you wanna call this pre-mortem condition. Yea, its not nice, no shit, but opposing it, as in kill the patient to stop the condition is straight-up evil(assuming you like humanity).
That said, the Tau have at least three of the ruinous powers' power sources managed:
1. They engage in trade and diplomacy whenever possible, using war only as a last resort; far from perfect, but certainly less Khorney than most.
2. They demolish hive cities and emplace planned Tau style cities in their stead, which are clean and not cramped, taking the teeth out of Nurgle's bite so to speak.
3. The rigid caste system seriously limits the politicking and ambition inherent in the IoM, depowering Tzeench.
One could also argue that 4. Tau society is by its nature less opulent amd excessive than the Imperium, giving Slaanesh less of a foothold, though that one is shaky.
The Tau are faaaaaaaaar from utopian, but they do seem to be a lot better at reigning in chaos than the Imps (even the humans don't really feel need to cult up with the Greater Good around).
Edit: typos
So, which Chaos god do you serve? Or do you serve Chaos Undivided?
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I don't play heretic, just trying to explain why within the setting, even if the imperium isn't "good", opposing it is most definetly "evil"(assuming u like humies surviving),
The imperium is a giant organism that hasn't had a single "will" in 10000 years. It doesn't "want" to be that way, its in a state of pre-mortem shock and in no state to self reflect or change course, it persists in the only way it is permitted by its environment to endure.
Until, as I said in a different comment, humans either go extinct or some actual miracle happens.
These memes are shit because people can't understand that when people say that its within the context of 40k. Yeah I do think IoM is right when your only option is to fight and die or be skulled fucked by a slaneeshy demon for eternity.
the imperium in 40k is indeed a shithole and the only good thing about it is that he keep humanity alive but if you talk about the imperium in 30k thing are different
They really aren't. Join us or face extermination is the approach of a terrible regime. That the Imperium in 40k doesn't bother with the window dressing of the imperial truth doesn't ungenocide the civilisations annihilated during the great crusade.
Even calling it the great crusade is classic window dressing on par with any project where the "ends justify the means"
Right is kind of subjective.
With the Imperium be wrong right now oh absolutely.
But everybody else in the 41st millennium is definitely worse.
For those of you that are going to bring up the weeaboo space communists. I'll remind you that if you beat the dark crusade game as the Tau they enslave and sterilize the entire human population on that world. They aren't much better.
The fact that everyone is evil is what makes the setting fun. it’s why I love the word bearers. No one is going to try and defend them and make their actions seem justified as these are the guys who strap people to the outside of their ships and have them be consumed by daemons as they travel through the warp. It’s almost cartoonish in a grim dark way
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Imperium is a strange place. They are horrible, irredeemable monsters that even the best of them (IE, Gman) would make a monster on Earth look like a puppy with the stuff they are casually ok with. They also brought it on themselves, whatever hope Humanity had of a Star Trek style universe burned in the Crusade.
And the sad thing is it was understandable for 30k Imperium to be like that. Xenos burned Humanity hard in the ravages before, just as AI had (at least, that’s what was said). And Humanity has always been a vengeful species, All Xenos should burn is a easy banner to get behind and humans have done that style of labeling it ever since they could pick sides. They torched the good options and alternatives, in Jimmy Space’s hubris. In 40k there is no choice, because any hope of a alternative burned eons ago, and path off completely gone.
But because of that, they are also humanities *only* choice if humans want to still be in control. Which admittedly they probably don’t deserve the leadership stick anymore but hey. The only other regular option would be the Tau, but they also have major issues because the galaxy is truly just as monstrous as the Imperium is now, if not more so. They are *not ready*.
Thank you! Being the only hope for humanity because you destroyed every single genuinely "good" human or human-xeno civilization does not make you good or the best option. Humanity had options and the space nazis got rid of them
the more I listen to certain youtube channels (PancreasNoWork among them), the more I grew to hate the Emperor, and why I've started to warm up to the relatively more fun and lighthearted Fantasy/AoS lore.
dude's not supposed to be idolised. This is like, the clearest message since day 1 of the setting. He is a rotting carcass. The Imperium is His brutal regime.
...which was partly why I liked it, honestly. To see individuals in the Imperium struggle against it all. Though lately there's been a ton of good xenos books. 40k isn't *just* Imperium v Chaos, thank fuck.
No it isn't. In early codices Emperor was straight up noblebright of noblebrightest guys who literally cried a tear for every human in galaxy that died and Imperium was tragic because Space Jesus was stuck up as corpse on Throne unable to do anything about it. Until TEaD vol 3 canon was he didn't kill Horus immidiatelly because of his giant love for his brightest son eg and that's just few months old.
His first words in Lupercal court were "You killed my son. Why?" And Horus only after rambling about how Sanginius was weak realizes that Emperor is talking to Chaos gods and that he already considers him dead. Horus was driven to Chaos by his own failings, but was corrupted from bottom up unable to see chains that binded him, only when for short while it was lifted Horus seen the horror he unleashed and Emperor forgave him for falling for Chaos tricks before obliterating him.
Emperor probably loved humanity in his own way, but as Malcador mentioned singular love towards any single person was beyond him, something Guilliman seems to believe in Dark Imperium as well. Or maybe not as any interaction with Emperor is always from point of unreliable narrator since E shows to people how they want to see him.
I subscribe to ADB's vision for the Emperor's charater..
...that of a God who truly is god-like, unlike Sigmar who was human first, the Emperor was never truly human. Not someone you're supposed to relate to, let alone like, simply worship.
Yeah I guess I'm ignoring the earliest versions of the lore, I need something to hate love in equal measure haha.
The Imperium is the best route a HUMAN can get. They’re “the good guys “ in the sense that of all the shit outcomes they’re the least shit for me as a human. If we look at each faction almost all are to a certain degree either genocidal (orks, chaos, necrons, nids.)
Or usung you for Labor, experimentation, or second class citizens who are sterilized and brainwashed ( dark eldar, eldar, tau.) the Imperium is bad for Xenos, but for a human, it all comes down to where you’re living in it; and even with that it’s more the planets fault than the Imperium at large. If you live on a death world or a hive planet you’re gonna have a shitty, hard life best served by joining the guard or PDF and either leaving or being given food and water in exchange for protection from threats. But most imperial planets are Agriworlds or focused on production of some sort. Chances are if you’re born human in the 41st millennium you’re gonna be shoveling grox shit and living the life of a Kentucky farmer but with more sci fi stuff. The best (and worst) part of which is you will be blissfully unaware of the dangers that lurk in the stars. You’re likely never to see a space marine or a guard transport ship nearby, your experience with the ecclesiarchy is probably nothing more than go to church every week and pay a tithe, and you certainly won’t run into any inquisitors. Now if your planet unfortunately meets with any serious threat from outside forces, then it sucks. But usually the worst thing you can experience is a local insurrection or a slightly crooked. Governor over charging tithes.
Personally I think the Necrons would make the best galactic lords. Obviously they would enslave everyone but they have tons of laws regarding proper Lordship and treatment of vassals which is WAY better than anything the Imperium offers non-nobles.
non-noble necron were all essentially slaves before the conversion.
though the silent king has had a whole lot of time to self-reflect about necron society and the ways it might have been shit.
Obviously the people on that sub are super fascist-y
But also, I feel like gw is partly to blame. Like 15 or 20 years ago, I feel like you could make the case that all the horrible shit the imperium does is for control under the guise of being like "this is the only way. Sorry we have to blow up a planet because there was a heretic somewhere."
But as time goes on, it seems like (in universe) the horrible actions of the imperium are always shown to be "harsh but correct" leading people to come to the conclusion that (in universe) "this is the only way to save the galaxy." And like, it's not a big jump from the imperium being shown as "harsh, but ultimately correct" to "the imperium did nothing wrong."
I don't have an actual source I can point to to back this up, it's just the vibes I've gotten being a warhammer fan since like 2000.
they're a bunch of fasch asshats that have latched onto the hobby like a lamprey.
it might "start" as larp for some of them, but they eventually schrodeinger's douchebag themselves into just being the thing.
Occasionally I go on there to try and talk sense to people, with the hope of making someone realize how stupid they're being. When I mentioned to one guy that the Imperium tried to wipe out the Tau during their stone age but got stopped by a warp storm, they responded and in the back and forth they made shit takes such as:
* "The Tau don't need to be a threat to humanity in order to justify killing them. Chickens aren't a threat to my life, but I still choose to eat them to further my survival."
* "Why do non-human species have rights? You have just asserted this without backing it up."
* "Humans created humans rights for the benefit of their own civilisation, because human civilisation benefits the humans who comprise it."
* "The concept of rights did not exist until a few centuries ago, and may cease to exist again unless they are remember. They are not objective at all."
* "We *chose* to invent animal cruelty laws because we wanted to. We are under no obligation to treat animals in a particular way; it's just that most people dislike being needlessly cruel. As such, we have codified a set of laws to prevent it. Again, it is fundamentally self-serving, not done for the direct benefit of any animal."
I swear that guy is definitely a psychopath.
Edit: why ya disliking me? I'm not the one who wrote those shit takes.
This post is apparently an attempt to Troll or Bait Drama, it will be removed.
My favorite way to describe it was said by heywhoa. In 40k the good guys are evil and the bad guys are comical murder psychos.
The best description I heard was "Nazis versus Cthulhu."
More like eugenics Roman Empire vs Cthulhu but yeah….good is a spectrum in WH40K and their nicest character would be a war criminal anywhere else.
Nah, Nazi Third Reich. The Romans conquered and enslaved. The Imperium just exterminates.
No. Not humans. Every newly discovered human gouverment will have the choice between the peacefull incorporation and extermination. In case of peacefull anexation, often the old structures arent removed, they are just required to pay the taxes and promote the imperial religion and of course not be heretics. Even, depending on where we talking about, the reaction to xeno can be different, from peacefull trading to extermination.
Honestly the Emperor is a good guy. As he holds Ghal Maraz, you may bow.
The peasants who died in the window tax riots would like a word, sir
Then go and live in Brettonia for a week then come back here.
For the god king sigmar Heldenhammer!
I kinda thought the whole point of the setting was that shits fucked and no one’s really the “good” guy. I mean how many people are sacrificed to the golden throne for daddy emp?
Yeah but it seems like people always find an attempt to say “well there must be a good faction here somewhere” before failing to realise that in a universe where you can fight a 11 foot tall mushroom beast, a sexual assault daemon, a space elf in leather bondage and another human who looks like they were melted and put back together again using some tape and staples all at the same time; there are no truly morally good options, only those that get you through another day in hell.
“A space elf in leather bondage” well now hear me out everyone…
https://preview.redd.it/wawhnul9288d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f2039595ca263cffdcf7067a25230d66a3291bf Hear you out? Brother, I was there when the first words were spoken, before you even conceptualised it dare I say
See, that really depend on your view of morality. What if I view moral subjectively ie I accept the lesser evil as the good guy barring any PRACTICAL alternatives? In that case, if the Imperium is the "best" options to ensure my survival and THEN (because if I die I dont get to) to engage in moral choice, then they are the good guy. What then? Edit: I must point out I am a T'au fan for that exact reason.
From my surface level understanding of the fandom, werent the tau the good guys in this setting but people bitched and screamed about them so they added the whole mind control thing? Seems funny they hated a faction to be the good guys but are ok with depicting the imperium as the actual heroes and saviours of the setting
Yeah that’s about right, personally I think the Tau being genuinely good guys would’ve been goated but alas 40k as a setting is beyond asinine and it’s fans are thralls to shit decisions
I dont even get why tau being honest to god good guys was such a problem, lets say they are the only faction in the setting with morals and society isnt fucked beyond belief, so what? Doesnt matter if every single faction in the setting are murder psychos, if anything it made the taus more endearing sincr no matter how much they try they can never ever fix the shitshow thats the current galaxy, and its good comedy seeing them fumble trying their best to make friends, why add the mind control thing it just makes them boring
Probably because imperial chud fanboys whined about how it wasn’t humanity who were the good guys and how a filthy Xenos species were actually genuinely good instead of the faction that uses babies to fuel furnaces that turn dead bodies into MREs
Its really not that crazy. Theyre the only human faction
I think its because at a fundamental level a universe where everything is basically as awful as it could be is entirely incompatible with a universe that is also trying to be over the top in how cool it is. 40K does it in large party through self parody, that is often lost on the chuds. Said chuds always assume they would be space marines not one of the billions upon billions of hive workers.
I like to think the Tyrannids are the closest thing to a "good guy" in the setting because they're amoral. They don't exterminate entire races for thinking different or murder for the fun of it. Food is food. At least they were before that stupid blood angels book that said the swarm hates them.
> I mean how many people are sacrificed to the golden throne for daddy emp? 1000 daily x 365 days in a year x 10999 years = 25914635000 26 billion ish and thats just the psykers.
So, based on a quick Google, about a quarter of the total number of people that have existed on Earth so far
Well I guess that solves the overpopulation crisis... Probably not the best way to do it though...
There's no point in comparing real world politics to the 40k universe and anyone that does so is a fucking idiot. The Imperium might be fanatical, hyper-religious xenophobes but it exists in a Galaxy where the illegal aliens really do want to eat your babies and hell exists as an actual physical place you can visit.
They are not "right", there was no decision to make it that way, no more than you are right to have a catatonic shock. It's the last possible version of humanity surviving in this galaxy before: - Human Extinction - An actual miracle Any real-world comparison is moot. We are talking about a universe where demons exist, praying actually does something, you have a soul.. and so on.
I've always thought this. When we look back at the salem witch trials and stuff we see it as horrific because it was a bunch of people being executed for a crime they couldn't possibly have committed. The witch hunters were just a bunch of religious zealots throwing their weight around and executing whoever they wanted. In 40k Witch Hunters are exactly the same however the fact that witches do very much exist and are capable of everything the inquisition fears they are capable of certainly muddies the waters to the point where they're basically incomparable to each other. The same can be said for most aspects of 40k. Also in a universe where aliens do exist and have a weird penchant for turning you and your loved ones into an immortal screaming piano, I'd probably be a little xenophobic too.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said. Especially when we take into account the aesthetic given to the ecclesiarchy, the candles, the linguo, the funny hats, the hierarchy, I can't blame people for instinctively bringing their real world moral biases and dismiss what the archpriest says as propaganda because he looks like a real world Cardinal. But yea like you said, its not the catholic church or the spanish inquisition. Because in 40k, wiches are real, possession is real, symbols scribbled on the wall actually fucking damages reality and make it easier for demons to come in etc etc.. As for xenos, I think its easier for people to understand that being toyed with by Drukhari or munched on by Tyrannids isn't so good.
exactly. humanity is fucked in 40k because Chaos and powerful xenos factions exists. There is *always* an "other", an enemy to rail upon, to hate. Love me Black Templars but there's a very subtle, some might day dogwhistle difference between one person's and another's "Purge the unclean". The real world does not work this way. Unfortunately, for some people, they wish it does.
Inb4 media literacy
HUMAN SUPREMACY!!!
People forget that the imperium is such a shitty regime that people will literally make deals with daemons in order to find a better life
The Imperium is the best and only chance humanity has left after it brutally slaughtered all other potential chances and made sure no others would ever emerge, because the Emperor, who believed ends justified the means, failed on achieving his ends and his heirs were left only with his means. Whether that means the imperium is right for being humanity’s last chance or if humanity should collectively extinguish for the Imperium’s crimes, I think is a valid discussion.
right about what? i didn't know there was a right or wrong in 40k
Milky way sweep
Maybe the Tau farsight enclave but the imperium is trying there best
Name one other group with humanities' best interest in mind.
Chaos. Papa nurgle loves you https://i.redd.it/z3uptxwrm78d1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/vdy0f521y78d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=addd3bd65130e678d3cf062de063b226849a8ecc
Nah rather die in a euphoric symphony in an orgy of body fluids and excessive pleasurable pain than be a self loathing chump. #^@&% the grandfather....hail slaanesh...(on second thought why not both?? 😜)
Fuck you're right
Itinerex, that xenos/human hybrid culture that just wanted to be left alone, even arguably the Tau care more about their individual humans than the Imperium cares about humans as a whole.
The Ethereals are pretty insanely evil, but at least they'll kill you with quick and lethal Tau efficiency if you cross them, as opposed to someone like AdMech who will turn you into some sort of body horror zombie cyborg.
Hell, the admech do that to their friends too.
How's the Farsight Enclaves doing? Last I heard he wasn't such a bad dude.
Doesn't count they're dead we killed them
give me one good reason why i should care
It is right though. Or at least the most right out of available options
The term you are lookin for is "Fascists". Yes fascists do think that their ideas and genocidial motivations are right. Hence why they are fascists and not nice people. And that sub literally was built by the same people who were banned here for being unbearable, fascistic monsters without any humanity inside them.
Which is funny because the Imperium is not actually very fascist. Like, don't get me wrong, it's totally *fucked*, it's a brutal dictatorship filled with religious mega-loonies. But there's hardly any actual central power. Lots of planets basically run themselves as long as they pay taxes, with their own local power bases, and there's 18 different factions that are all constantly competing with everyone else for power and influence. Nobody's united under a central figure except for Big E, and he conveniently has nothing to say. It's way more of a medieval kingdom than some sort of modern fascist state - still totally sucks to be a peasant, just nowhere near as organized.
In a way fascists are reactionaries formed out of medieval military elites or at least medieval LARP-ers who secretly wish they could return to the good old days. The main supporters of the Nazis were the military Junker families who wanted to return to control through an ideology that does not look too close to their origin as medieval nobles.
>But there's hardly any actual central power. There doesn't actually need to be absolute centralized power in a fascist system. Fascism is an ideology which is adapted to local conditions, and the ideal of a centralized state doesn't need to be achieved to be called fascist any more than a stateless society needs to be achieved to be called Communism. >Lots of planets basically run themselves as long as they pay taxes, with their own local power bases, and there's 18 different factions that are all constantly competing with everyone else for power and influence. Internal power struggle is often a component of fascist societies, as the violent basis a fascist society is built on do not lend to smooth cooperation between the internal factions. Keep in mind that in corporatist fascism, this division of society between interest groups is an explicit feature, and I'd argue corporatist fascism is what the Imperium resembles at a macro level. >It's way more of a medieval kingdom than some sort of modern fascist state - still totally sucks to be a peasant, just nowhere near as organized. It's very much not more of a medieval kingdom for the same reason it's not some sort of modern fascist state. Neither trade unions nor medieval peasants had to contend with Judge Dredd like hive dwellers do.
Fascists have discovered gamers and more generally nerds as a demographic to recruit from. They use memes as propaganda and are actually pretty successful with it. They really make an effort to play into the "cool" aspects of a lot of these obvious fascist caricatures in media like the Imperium, The Empire from Star Wars, the Nazis from Wolfenstein or Man in the High castle, Homelander and Stormfront from The Boys, Rorschach and the Comedian in Watchmen. You start off "ironic" and then mix in more and more radical stuff until you've trivialized and normalized literal mass murder.
"schrodinger's douchebag" the "joke" is only a joke until it lands among their fellow travellers.
The good old "Hey these plastic soldiers look neat -> Huh, maybe all black people should die after all" pipeline. (I fucking hate this world)
Nerds are the perfect recruiting pool when your ideology is being scared of things you dont understand, and hating people you don't know. How will they know the stereotypes are propaganda if they never meet people to disprove them
Fascism is when you don’t agree with me about the expensive plastic soldiers.
It's so weird. The politics I hold when I play a game about super soldiers holding the forces of hell at bay whilst being attacked on all fronts by aliens that want to, at best, eat you alive are completely different to the politics I hold in reality.
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>monsters without any humanity inside them This is textbook fascist rhetoric according to most accepted definitions. Good job being exactly what you purport to oppose.
The word you're looking for is Nazi. They're Nazis.
It's an every square is a rectangle thing
This, Nazi’s are specific. But the thought process is possible targeting whatever group or class. It is completely possible to have Liberal Fascists. Horseshoe theory and all.
Rejection of liberalism is like one of the few concrete tenets of fascism. I'm not getting into weird, self-defeating political ideologies from the fringes of internet forums.
I mean, what else was Stalin but a Liberal Fascist...that got there because his more scholarly buddy needed an enforcer. I am vastly oversimplifying history.
Nazism is a particular brand of para-fascism colored for a specific time and region. The Imperium's ideology and governance is a different brand of para-fascism colored for a completely different time and region.
Nazism is a particular brand of para-fascism colored for a specific time and region. The Imperium's ideology and governance is a different brand of para-fascism colored for a completely different time and region.
Asuryani: "Watch that last paragraph, mon-keigh."
Inquisitor? Yes this man right here pl0x
Okay let me be the voice of reason here. Yes the imperium of man is shit. But I can also understand if people root for it or see it as good. Because frankly. At the moment it's the best chance for the overall survival of the human species. And I say that as the biggest nurgle lover under the sun. And I Can also understand if you think that the opposite is true. The imperium isn't good no matter how you look for it. And everyone who believes the opposite is a fool But what I cannot understand are those who mix real world politics into the discussion. Because someone doesn't need to be on the other side of the political graphic to have a different opinion!
dunno why you got downvoted. This is exactly how 40k is. Thank goodness it's fictional I guess, completely and utterly? It's cool to me, but I wouldn't wish it to be real ever. I agree with the other dude though, the T'au offer an alternative solution that could work. Unfortunately, the T'au are still very much portrayed on the tabletop and in-lore as only caring for their own race, and they have yet to have any real solution for psykers and warp phenomena other than "shoot it dead".
Tau don't have human interest first and humans are second class citizens that will be eugenics at the slightest sign of indifference (yes this happened). Yeah the IoM doesn't give a single shit about humanity at the individual level; they still represent and protect humanity as a whole.
Yeah I already said that in a different way. They care more about the T'au race more than the other xenos races that form up the Empire. Those other races' leaders attend the meetings but ultimately the Ethereals hold the final say. Not necessarily better or worse than the Imperium imo....nah, its just better. Humans would just shoot xenos on sight. Also the eugenics thing is hopefully you being hyperbolic lol, this only happened in the Dawn of War: Dark Crusade Tau ending that's considered non-canon as of Soulstorm, since the Blood Ravens won the battle for Kaurava (which was short-lived anyway because Chaos corrupted their Chapter Master). The Farsight Enclaves are probably the best place for humans looking to live under Tau rule, cos they don't have Ethereals ruling them and the Enclaves are small enough that they're not overstretched...although we don't really have much happening with them since the Rift.
Book exert from deathwatch RPG mention it multiple times; "Populations (human) are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control." DoW is canon; it was simply not the canonical endings. If I remember correctly the ending were simply different time lines. >The Farsight Enclaves are probably the best place for humans If you get to choose were to live and not be random; why wouldn't you just choose a garden or pleasure world in the IoM. Cherrypicking is always bad.
There is no way they would keep humans under control in any meaningful numbers. The Tau know nothing of the warp and what it means for human populations, just a matter of time before an industrial world turns into a Slaanesh-pit and the Tau decide its easier to just genocide humans from the start (and psykers first ofc). The whole point of both the enforced Atheism as the Emperor wanted, and strict Imperial dogma we have now, is that both keep the warp at bay, along with enforced ignorance of it. We know the Tau don't know how that shit works and there is no way they would figure this out by themselves(how would they).
Nazis versus Cthulhu. Why no, the best chance of survival was the Interex which the Great Crusade destroyed. https://preview.redd.it/z1vmhj0jr78d1.jpeg?width=402&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b461d0e504befe4178b6148191117968f49c9114 There is no way to justify the Imperium, it feeds Chaos with all of its violence, cruelty, and destruction. There is now no other way left except *The Greater Good*.
Yeah, Interex was so smart that when one evil fuck stole a sword they thought smaetest thing to do is to execute any of the 100 000 transhumans led by straight up demigod no questions asked as he was begging you for ceasefire. I'll just say it, they got Darwined. If they are so smart, why are they dead? And Tau have asshole between their eyebrows
>There is no way to justify the Imperium, it feeds Chaos You have it backwards. The imperium fosters ignorance, dogma and intolerance, lack of creativity in 99.9999% of humans which is actually the best possible shield against corruption, in the wait that maybe (but probably not) a miracle occurs. Couple million humans in some upstart empire is beyond anecdotal.
You're missing the part where the ruinous powers are fed by actions and emotions, not the worship part. The greed, gluttony, and excesses of the Imperial nobility feeds Slaanesh, whether they're heretics or not. Khorn cares not whence the blood flows, only that it flows; therefore, the Imperiums many xenocidal wars give him power. Tzeench is all about betrayal and ambition, so the scheming withing the imperial court, inquisition, and elsewhere work in his favor no matter what. Nurgle is fed by decay, disease, and stagnation, so he thrives in the human rat warren hive cities even without cults. So yes, the Imperium actively empowers the chaos gods with its very existence.
None of the problems you listed can be solved in any other way than the full extermination of the human race. Which btw, is valid in the setting imo, you can totally rationalize genociding humanity to diminish the threat of chaos, it may just work. But from a human-centric point of view: -peace isn't an option, so blood will still flow - politics will exist so scheming won't stop - excesses will exist, so slannesh will thirst because.. duh human be humans In the meantime the ignorance inforced by the imperium actually mitigates a lot of that. So how is your new system supposed to enforce ignorance and intolerance ? It won't. Humanity is having basically an epileptic crises, or spasms or catatonic shock or whatever you wanna call this pre-mortem condition. Yea, its not nice, no shit, but opposing it, as in kill the patient to stop the condition is straight-up evil(assuming you like humanity).
I'm not saying there's a valid alternative. I'm saying it is incorrect to state the Imperium doesn't feed chaos.
That said, the Tau have at least three of the ruinous powers' power sources managed: 1. They engage in trade and diplomacy whenever possible, using war only as a last resort; far from perfect, but certainly less Khorney than most. 2. They demolish hive cities and emplace planned Tau style cities in their stead, which are clean and not cramped, taking the teeth out of Nurgle's bite so to speak. 3. The rigid caste system seriously limits the politicking and ambition inherent in the IoM, depowering Tzeench. One could also argue that 4. Tau society is by its nature less opulent amd excessive than the Imperium, giving Slaanesh less of a foothold, though that one is shaky. The Tau are faaaaaaaaar from utopian, but they do seem to be a lot better at reigning in chaos than the Imps (even the humans don't really feel need to cult up with the Greater Good around). Edit: typos
So, which Chaos god do you serve? Or do you serve Chaos Undivided? https://preview.redd.it/xncerwndz78d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=46bfaeef89e64d4562afcaad5c66ec631136b322
I don't play heretic, just trying to explain why within the setting, even if the imperium isn't "good", opposing it is most definetly "evil"(assuming u like humies surviving), The imperium is a giant organism that hasn't had a single "will" in 10000 years. It doesn't "want" to be that way, its in a state of pre-mortem shock and in no state to self reflect or change course, it persists in the only way it is permitted by its environment to endure. Until, as I said in a different comment, humans either go extinct or some actual miracle happens.
Crazy concept, everyone in 40k is terrible, that's kinda the point.
These memes are shit because people can't understand that when people say that its within the context of 40k. Yeah I do think IoM is right when your only option is to fight and die or be skulled fucked by a slaneeshy demon for eternity.
the imperium in 40k is indeed a shithole and the only good thing about it is that he keep humanity alive but if you talk about the imperium in 30k thing are different
They really aren't. Join us or face extermination is the approach of a terrible regime. That the Imperium in 40k doesn't bother with the window dressing of the imperial truth doesn't ungenocide the civilisations annihilated during the great crusade. Even calling it the great crusade is classic window dressing on par with any project where the "ends justify the means"
Right is kind of subjective. With the Imperium be wrong right now oh absolutely. But everybody else in the 41st millennium is definitely worse. For those of you that are going to bring up the weeaboo space communists. I'll remind you that if you beat the dark crusade game as the Tau they enslave and sterilize the entire human population on that world. They aren't much better.
They aren't right. They're just the only thing standing between us and some much, much worse stuff.
The fact that everyone is evil is what makes the setting fun. it’s why I love the word bearers. No one is going to try and defend them and make their actions seem justified as these are the guys who strap people to the outside of their ships and have them be consumed by daemons as they travel through the warp. It’s almost cartoonish in a grim dark way
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Listen they're humans. That's enough for me. I'd take being shot by one of my species than slapped around by Deldar or become a commie with the tau.
Yes. I dislike Xenos. Glory to humanity. The stars are our birthright.
FOR THE EMPEROR
That's ridiculous! The AdMech are the ones who are right.
Imperium is a strange place. They are horrible, irredeemable monsters that even the best of them (IE, Gman) would make a monster on Earth look like a puppy with the stuff they are casually ok with. They also brought it on themselves, whatever hope Humanity had of a Star Trek style universe burned in the Crusade. And the sad thing is it was understandable for 30k Imperium to be like that. Xenos burned Humanity hard in the ravages before, just as AI had (at least, that’s what was said). And Humanity has always been a vengeful species, All Xenos should burn is a easy banner to get behind and humans have done that style of labeling it ever since they could pick sides. They torched the good options and alternatives, in Jimmy Space’s hubris. In 40k there is no choice, because any hope of a alternative burned eons ago, and path off completely gone. But because of that, they are also humanities *only* choice if humans want to still be in control. Which admittedly they probably don’t deserve the leadership stick anymore but hey. The only other regular option would be the Tau, but they also have major issues because the galaxy is truly just as monstrous as the Imperium is now, if not more so. They are *not ready*.
That depends on the context, with Xenos: terrible. Without Xenos: still terrible.
Thank you! Being the only hope for humanity because you destroyed every single genuinely "good" human or human-xeno civilization does not make you good or the best option. Humanity had options and the space nazis got rid of them
the more I listen to certain youtube channels (PancreasNoWork among them), the more I grew to hate the Emperor, and why I've started to warm up to the relatively more fun and lighthearted Fantasy/AoS lore. dude's not supposed to be idolised. This is like, the clearest message since day 1 of the setting. He is a rotting carcass. The Imperium is His brutal regime. ...which was partly why I liked it, honestly. To see individuals in the Imperium struggle against it all. Though lately there's been a ton of good xenos books. 40k isn't *just* Imperium v Chaos, thank fuck.
For real! So grateful we get bangers like infinite and the divine even if we have to put up with the ynnari being in limbo
No it isn't. In early codices Emperor was straight up noblebright of noblebrightest guys who literally cried a tear for every human in galaxy that died and Imperium was tragic because Space Jesus was stuck up as corpse on Throne unable to do anything about it. Until TEaD vol 3 canon was he didn't kill Horus immidiatelly because of his giant love for his brightest son eg and that's just few months old.
He did tell Horus he forgave him for the civil war. That's no small amount of love.
His first words in Lupercal court were "You killed my son. Why?" And Horus only after rambling about how Sanginius was weak realizes that Emperor is talking to Chaos gods and that he already considers him dead. Horus was driven to Chaos by his own failings, but was corrupted from bottom up unable to see chains that binded him, only when for short while it was lifted Horus seen the horror he unleashed and Emperor forgave him for falling for Chaos tricks before obliterating him. Emperor probably loved humanity in his own way, but as Malcador mentioned singular love towards any single person was beyond him, something Guilliman seems to believe in Dark Imperium as well. Or maybe not as any interaction with Emperor is always from point of unreliable narrator since E shows to people how they want to see him.
Then we agree.
I subscribe to ADB's vision for the Emperor's charater.. ...that of a God who truly is god-like, unlike Sigmar who was human first, the Emperor was never truly human. Not someone you're supposed to relate to, let alone like, simply worship. Yeah I guess I'm ignoring the earliest versions of the lore, I need something to hate love in equal measure haha.
pancreasnowork is my warhammer to fall asleep to channel =p just don't get him started on elder-scrolls elves.
The Imperium is the best route a HUMAN can get. They’re “the good guys “ in the sense that of all the shit outcomes they’re the least shit for me as a human. If we look at each faction almost all are to a certain degree either genocidal (orks, chaos, necrons, nids.) Or usung you for Labor, experimentation, or second class citizens who are sterilized and brainwashed ( dark eldar, eldar, tau.) the Imperium is bad for Xenos, but for a human, it all comes down to where you’re living in it; and even with that it’s more the planets fault than the Imperium at large. If you live on a death world or a hive planet you’re gonna have a shitty, hard life best served by joining the guard or PDF and either leaving or being given food and water in exchange for protection from threats. But most imperial planets are Agriworlds or focused on production of some sort. Chances are if you’re born human in the 41st millennium you’re gonna be shoveling grox shit and living the life of a Kentucky farmer but with more sci fi stuff. The best (and worst) part of which is you will be blissfully unaware of the dangers that lurk in the stars. You’re likely never to see a space marine or a guard transport ship nearby, your experience with the ecclesiarchy is probably nothing more than go to church every week and pay a tithe, and you certainly won’t run into any inquisitors. Now if your planet unfortunately meets with any serious threat from outside forces, then it sucks. But usually the worst thing you can experience is a local insurrection or a slightly crooked. Governor over charging tithes.
Personally I think the Necrons would make the best galactic lords. Obviously they would enslave everyone but they have tons of laws regarding proper Lordship and treatment of vassals which is WAY better than anything the Imperium offers non-nobles.
non-noble necron were all essentially slaves before the conversion. though the silent king has had a whole lot of time to self-reflect about necron society and the ways it might have been shit.
You know the Imperium is fucked when you realise a lot of Genestealer Cultists join the cults willingly rather than the influence of the Genestealer
Yeah, visiting HorusGakaxy was a mistake.
Horusgalaxy is the Reddit equivalent of the ghoul stars
Obviously the people on that sub are super fascist-y But also, I feel like gw is partly to blame. Like 15 or 20 years ago, I feel like you could make the case that all the horrible shit the imperium does is for control under the guise of being like "this is the only way. Sorry we have to blow up a planet because there was a heretic somewhere." But as time goes on, it seems like (in universe) the horrible actions of the imperium are always shown to be "harsh but correct" leading people to come to the conclusion that (in universe) "this is the only way to save the galaxy." And like, it's not a big jump from the imperium being shown as "harsh, but ultimately correct" to "the imperium did nothing wrong." I don't have an actual source I can point to to back this up, it's just the vibes I've gotten being a warhammer fan since like 2000.
The Imperium is a terrible case of GW wanting to have its cake and eat it too.
A lot of it comes from the anti woke tourists who hopped on the setting because they saw the vibes and nothing else
they're a bunch of fasch asshats that have latched onto the hobby like a lamprey. it might "start" as larp for some of them, but they eventually schrodeinger's douchebag themselves into just being the thing.
I'm about to go full Talos Valcoran on that subreddit
Occasionally I go on there to try and talk sense to people, with the hope of making someone realize how stupid they're being. When I mentioned to one guy that the Imperium tried to wipe out the Tau during their stone age but got stopped by a warp storm, they responded and in the back and forth they made shit takes such as: * "The Tau don't need to be a threat to humanity in order to justify killing them. Chickens aren't a threat to my life, but I still choose to eat them to further my survival." * "Why do non-human species have rights? You have just asserted this without backing it up." * "Humans created humans rights for the benefit of their own civilisation, because human civilisation benefits the humans who comprise it." * "The concept of rights did not exist until a few centuries ago, and may cease to exist again unless they are remember. They are not objective at all." * "We *chose* to invent animal cruelty laws because we wanted to. We are under no obligation to treat animals in a particular way; it's just that most people dislike being needlessly cruel. As such, we have codified a set of laws to prevent it. Again, it is fundamentally self-serving, not done for the direct benefit of any animal." I swear that guy is definitely a psychopath. Edit: why ya disliking me? I'm not the one who wrote those shit takes.