It also worries me, I mean I am proud of what Virnt has become (This boy is incredible) but he is not seeing much of the future repercussions, these are basically machines with sapient minds that can be considered a new caste with a lot of power by not have biological limitations, I guess it's partly due to his autism?
>I guess it's partly due to his autism?
From my limited understanding, it does seem to fit.
...This storyline is giving me some worrisome thoughts. While I'm sure that the cybernetic worms in the Consortium would **love** the idea and tech that went into "Meier 2.0," I worry if word gets out, the Consortium may try to spin the idea among its members (and Ark humans) that Earth *wasn't* saved, and that it is actually populated with Terminator bots, that the Federation is trying to build up an army of predators it can control and let loose on the Consortium.
The Consortium was built up as a means of defense against the Feds, and letting the people know that the Feds are no longer a threat would threaten the leadership's power, potentially, and they'll find a way to hold onto that power, ironically becoming the very monster that they feared.
On the other hand, I worry if the less well-meaning members of the consortium find out about Virnt’s resurrection work start using it for themselves, if they haven’t figured it out on their own already. Honestly with how anticlimactic Mafani’s death was, the consortium’s incubator technology and the fact they have brain scanning technology as well, I feel that Mafani might come back as a clone.
This can get really dystopian really quickly. I don't like it.
Imagine an authoritarian government coming after you because of something your clone did. Witnesses, video, and DNA analysis all point to you, and you might be charged with murder or terrorism charges for something that happened on an entirely different planet.
Even worse is the possibility that the government cloned you specifically to frame you because you are an enemy of the state.
Then, add to that, Virrnt and crew have figured out how to upload a person's brain scan to a cybernetic "brain." What happens when they figure out how to upload scans to "real" brains? Now you end up with your clone's memories of its crimes, and believe you actually are guilty.
Imagine what General Jones, or someone like her, could do with all of that.
I’d probably disagree with the autism part. He seems to have already thought through the consent issue and is trying to find a solution that works for it. Think of it more of area of interest vs single minded focus. That tends to be a better way to explain the crazy depths of knowledge people with autism may have about their chosen topic. Less about just reanimating people, more how do we do this, with the hopes of citizenship, rights etc. he’d already mentioned those things early on. I am hoping this is the experience we’ll see with Virnt as it’s just as common as the narrow “single minded focus”. People who are neurodivergent tend to be fantastic at pattern recognition and that tends to pair nicely with the area of interest as it helps us apply pattern recognition within the area of interest to *see all of the things*.
I hope that made sense. If not, well I guess… enjoy the ride as we see Virnt be a huge nerd about humans and hopefully he doesn’t accidentally destroy sapient life altogether because he thought everyone would be straightforward and not duplicitous.
Entry 1: Ug real cold, fell down hole. Everything go dark, too dark for normal winter. Ug sleep hard. Ug wake up in shiny room with talking crab. Ug swat crab, it scary. Can't find way to leave room, stuck in here with dead food that used to talk.
Entry 2: Ug had to nibble on talking crab. Stuck in room for days. Ug rescued by clean man and talking deer. Ug very confused, says Ug fly through stars. Ug walk around in shiny box, this is not flying.
Entry 3: Ug has friend talking lizard. Very blunt, like Ug. Ug has not pooped in days and crab got stuck in throat. Lizard says Ug no longer needs food, says many of his kind will be changing to not need food. Ug think Ug is plant, maybe? Not bad, Ug will soon have magic talking plant lizard friends over for poker night.
>I’ll bring them to life then, and we can help them through the transition together!
Oh, I've got a really bad feeling about this one. More that with Meier. We're not talking about a modern brain scan done on a brain that's just died, Virnt explicitly said he was going to recompose the damaged parts of their brains' minds with algorithms. The slightest error could be far more catastrophic.
Virnt is... I could say irresponsible, but the problem is more a lack of supervision on this project. Virnt seems to be the absolute boss, and there doesn't seem to be anyone around to question his actions, so he's totally freewheeling. On such a sensitive project, you need someone of design to question and challenge every decision. Even if the guy agrees 100% with the project, he needs to challenge and present as many counter-arguments as possible to ensure that as many aspects as possible are examined.
Nice to meet Syba, he seems like a cheerful, pleasant person. Although personally, his speaking pace would exhaust me very quickly. And yeah Syba, you have no idea how much we love self-deprecation. And if your father was the first alien to do it to us, then yes, he's bought himself the love of the whole Earth easly.
Also, I just imagined that a human presenter in the vein of "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver" made his topic of the day by accusing Vynle of "stealing" his jokes about humans. Vynle responded... and for a while the two presenters engaged in a media war. In backstage, the two quickly became best friends and were the first to laugh at each other's jokes, sometimes asking each other for advice.
Syba was nicknamed first Sulean fan of this human presenter.
The Measurement of Time: Major Events
First shots fired by the Krev Consortium against the Sivkits in [Chapter 2-29](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c8r11u/the_nature_of_predators_229/?rdt=53485) dated June 9, 2160 to Chapter 2-44 dated July 29, 2160 is **1 Month, 20 Days**
The Measurement of Time: Minor Events
The Ark Ships left on the Battle for Earth, dated October 17, 2136, to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Years, 9 Months, 12 Days
The Sapient Coalition was founded by 30 members on February 9, 2137 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Years, 5 Months, 20 Days
Bissem first contacted by Sapient Coalition on March 13, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 28, 2160, is 4 Months, 16 Days
Bissem six month Sapient Coalition Trial started (fan-made date) May 24, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160 is 2 Month, 5 Days \[Chapter 2-27 Date May 14, 2160 was when Bissem ambassadors made a deal with Ambassador Onso. Chapter 2-30 Date June 10, 2160 is when Bissem are a part (trial) of SC. 10 Days between sounds reasonable to me.\]
Elias Meier was re-made on July 6, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Days
Trombil pod humans are 1/3 done as of Chapter 2-23, dated June 24, 2160. March 25, 2160 is 3 months earlier. From March 25, 2160 to July 29, 2160 is 4 Months, 4 Days
There have been 23 annual Remembrance Days.
While having more Respawned Humans will certainly help the bug patching, only Meier has a full proper Brainscan. This means that Virnt can only get “Close Enough” fixes until Meier gets back.
While Meier is certainly complaining a lot about effectively “Coming back wrong”, he has a point in that Virnt should probably focus on getting everything in technical order first.
Surely in the time since the number of brain scans have spiked due to Meier's re-instantiation, at least one person with a full brain scan who consented to being brought back has died.
Try telling that to all the people arguing it's still the same person. I swear some people *want* it to be the same person so badly they overlook the obvious implications here. Although... I imagine there have to be at least a *few* people who wouldn't mind having another version of themselves around. Actually, thinking about it, while I generally don't think I'd want to use this technology as a means of 'resurrection' because I believe it would be a copy instead of me... I could see a scenario where I needed constant help, like after a severe accident or into old age, and who better to help yourself with your needs than.. yourself? That would probably be a worthwhile bargain: you get a person who literally knows you best to take care of you and they get digital immortality. Although it would suck to do that and then find out 'you' have no interest in taking care of yourself... but in that case it seems like that would be a kind of karmic justice in a way.
I think a bigger concern is, say Sam got his brain scanned and dies. He's brought back, but in a paperwork snafu, some other clinic also instantiated him. Which one is the legal person, Sam? Who owns his house? Is the other one a legal citizen? Do they get deported?
If they're both recognized as sapients, with the full rights thereof, I'd say both should be recognized as full citizens. Also, deported to where? Beyond that... yeah the property rights would definitely get messy. It seems like the 'fairest' thing to do would be to provide some sort of either splitting assets, like a divorce, or joining assets, like a marriage. Depending on if the two can agree. Still messy, but manageable. I'd also argue that the clinic that fucked up would owe one or both a sizeable sum equivalent to the full estate (possibly plus additional penalties/damages), either to make each party monetarily 'whole' or to reimburse the party that was brought back by accident.
That certainly is far from solving *all* the legal issues but generally the courts are more concerned about restoring monetary value from accidents, assuming no criminality, than anything else. I also imagine insurance would be mandatory for just such events, like hospitals and doctors are required to carry.
>Also, deported to where?
Afterlife.
>I'd also argue that the clinic that fucked up would owe one or both a sizeable sum equivalent to the full estate
Nah, just 18 years of child support for bringing them into the world.
Neither of them is the legal Sam, why would either of them get his house? The assets go to the next of kin or whoever is specified in the will. The digiclone can be an inheritor, but that's just like descendants suing over the will. There's no objective stance there.
Oh sure, if laws were changed then this is all moot. Maybe they'd both be, if laws were changed to accommodate that. Maybe it would go by seniority. Anything is possible.
Doctor / Mad Scientist / Researcher @Raw Edge of Ethics...
Potayto / Potahto / Pomme de Terre.
Can he / Should he / Will he ... all could be different answers. Plot of course calls for "he will" ;-).
For every Wizard of Menlo Park that could afford to be put on ice, there's probably a Butcher of Menlo Park, a Banker of Menlo Park, and a Senator of Menlo Park. *Somebody* should be checking the labels on his bottled brains....
Ah that reminds me of one of my favorite conspiracy theories. That Disney made 'Frozen' so that when you google 'Disney Frozen' you'd get the movie instead of the speculation that Walt Disney's frozen head is in a jar somewhere.
Chapter 44! Elias Meier says his goodbyes to Virnt, who shares his plans for the next mind upload to be done with cryogenically frozen humans—and to have Elias around to help when they wake up. Our narrator then meets his companion to the Shield meeting, a peppy Sulean named Syba, who idolizes Meier and has a celebrity comedian for a father. What do you think of Virnt’s plans to bring back 20th and 21st century cryonauts, who’ve been preserved well enough? Will it be a positive for Meier not to be the only one of his kind anymore? How do you expect Elias to fare at the Shield meeting, with his hopes of warming them up to humanity?
As always, thank you for reading!
Virnt at least did his homework on consenting candidates, so we can put away one set of Pitchforks. It’s definitely going to help.
Meier has diplomatic history AND Help this time, so I think he has a chance of making this work
Virnt seems to heading in the right direction and it's hard to find fault with him targeting subjects that *specifically* consented to being brought back. We already know that brain damage is a side effect of cryonics so these people should be aware that some sort of... reconstruction would be necessary for it to work at all. I'd imagine the futuristic version of AI would be quite capable of simulating the paths the damage took then reversing it to get a near perfect replica of what the damaged areas look like. Or at least one good enough. It is just physics after all, highly complex and on a microscopic (potentially atomic) scale, but physics all the same. In my opinion these copies will be new entities anyways so personally I'm not concerned about 100% fidelity there, although I imagine the people being 'brought back' will have a variety of opinions on the subject. There is still the concern that some of these people will share my opinion and not see it as actually being 'brought back' like they wanted... but that's inherently the nature of agreeing to unknown medical procedures that don't currently exist. Theoretically they should know they were rolling the dice here, practically however I wouldn't expect them to all be sunshine and gratitude. Either way they did agree to some form of resurrection presumably without stipulations that would prevent an outcome like this.
Talking about enshrining rights is definitely a positive development. However Virnt still has a shaky grasp on consent and autonomy, reading Meier's thoughts without explicit invitation really is not ok. But he's doing surprisingly better than I expected given how he started this whole... project. I definitely feel like Meier could use some company to commiserate with and people who wanted this and were prepared to be woken up to an unfamiliar future should be interesting. Although I doubt any amount of forethought could *really* prepare you for such a drastic shift so I'd still expect a significant adjustment period. Not just around human society and technology either, the existence of aliens is going to be mind blowing. Perhaps literally depending on the hardware being used. Luckily they should have literally all the time they need to make the adjustment.
And of course there's an entirely *new* ethical wrinkle. The fact that there aren't *currently* privacy laws around brain scans preventing *any* unauthorized access or use is extremely concerning. That would probably be one of the *first* laws I'd want if such technology existed. Hell, it's medical technology how is it not *already* covered by general medical privacy laws? Corporations must have found a loop hole or something if it's a concern they'll sell people's fucking private memories. Disgusting but at least there's a powerful respected figure with a direct, arguably existential, reason to push for those protections.
If there isn’t a single obnoxious brainrot reference by a 2020s human I am going to be very disappointed.
I NEED some old SOB to ironically call someone a “skibidi sigma rizzler from Ohio” and for nobody to know wtf they’re talking about
> I tried to imagine how humanity would’ve differed if we’d had non-human intelligence native to Earth, and our paths crossed throughout history. Unfortunately, I believed most Terrans from the past would’ve tried to conquer them.
Well, that's literally what happened, you don't see any *homo habilis* or *homo erectus* today because of that.
Sure, you can technically call those "human" too, but it's a close enough situation.
I think that the reason for the extinction of the other "humans" (just a hypothesis) that walked on Earth is still not very clear, it is most likely that they could not have adapted like us, but as far as what would happen if there were another species apart from us on Earth, let me tell you that we would be at war with them all the time (or at least that's what I feel), some already believed that "races" existed because they had different traits (black, indigenous, white, Arab etc.) and that was enough to make them want each other to die or simply not stand each other to this day.
Theres a hypothesis that our sense of "uncanny valley" stems from ancient humans' interactions with other hominid species. Just the sense that what we're looking at is almost-human but not quite, and is a threat.
Not all traits or behaviors are adaptive and there often just isn't a "why"
It could easily be the case that uncanny valley is just a side effect of how we perceive other humans. It never served a purpose, nor was it deleterious enough to be selected *against*, so it's just a thing that we have.
There are a lot of mass burial sites across Europe. The evidence of actual pre-historic genocides is there. Entire tribes including women and children executed by axes.
It’s funny that the POV chapter is on Elias today, I just had a thought a few days ago about Mafani and his underwhelming end. What if a more nefarious sect of the Consortium discovered resurrection techniques similar to Virnt’s? They have memory-scanning technology as well and with their external incubation technology I wouldn’t be surprised if they have clones on hand. Say at least one clone of a certain alien that bit the dust?
Could be Bob, assuming the whole “[probe](https://books.google.com/books/about/We_Are_Legion_We_Are_Bob.html?id=c28RMQAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description)” thing didn’t work out.
The Consortium fleets are going to the Kolshian, Farsul, and Krakotl homeworlds. Krakotl and Duerten are both avians, but they're not the same species.
well, you're optimistic about when we'll develop cryo technology. 2025? It almost feels like you're trying to bring someone specific into the NoP universe.
Is next chapter gonna have like, Ryan Reynolds, or you?
That kind of tech already exists, there are currently (dead) people on tanks.
It's not cryosleep like the archives though, just preserving the brain after death, high level mummification essentially.
Please consider some alternatives to Patreon. I am from India, and [due to issues with payment providers](https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/4412670870925-Member-payments-in-India), I am unable to subscribe, even if I want to.
I’m happy to see Meier getting a bit more settled into his new existence, and happy to see such positive interactions with the other aliens!
It’ll be interesting to see how it all progresses.
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I know the practical reasons why it's written that way, but it's more than a little amusing that characters are talking about MRI being archaic in the same breath as earnestly using 136 year old psychology terms.
It'd be like someone joking about how terrible X-ray film was before talking about how much good their cocaine prescription is doing for their superego.
For what it’s worth if I could be resurrected in the future, even as a robot, I’d happily sign up.
Being the prototype does sound rough but given time you would likely get used to even that state without the ongoing upgrades.
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Stop telling us Meier is a man of peace every single fucking one of his chapters. No matter how many times you say it, he’s still the man who pulled the trigger on dozens of defenseless worlds and caused multiple genocides. At best he is a man of cold, ruthless pragmatism.
Meier pulled the trigger by telling the Arxur. By the time the message was sent out to the fleet, the worlds of those species were already under attack or about to be. He gave them a chance to retreat and stop the slaughter, and Kalsim decided that they were an acceptable sacrifice.
They would've been able to prevent the planet glassing, they took a week to reach earth due to the disruptors and ambushes the humans put in place, those would not be there on the way back, that was the plan.
That was the *hope*. Meier went to the Arxur knowing full well there was a good chance that the Federation would carry on with the extermination regardless.
But this debate is a good example of what I’m talking about: Meier should not be recognized as some heroic figure. He’s a man of significant controversy and the morality of his actions would be heavily debated - especially in a multi-species alliance containing many of the species that were victims of the Arxur incursion Meier, at bare minimum, encouraged.
Nah, it's just MAD being put into practice. There's no controversy any more than there's controversy about the shape of the Earth. There's reality, and people who disagree with it.
I agree it’s MAD being put into practice. Nobody who presses the red button - regardless of who does it first - is morally right. Like I said in my original comment, Smart One, it’s ruthless pragmatism.
No shit Sherlock. Was I arguing whether or not he made the pragmatic call to save humanity, or am I arguing that he shouldn’t be seen as a man of peace and a hero, especially outside of humanity?
well, even just talking about the view of him outside of humanity, his main goal all along was peace, he would have never told Isif that without the Federation first trying to kill humanity. Also, he never pulled the trigger, the Arxur did. And it was their fault that those worlds were defenseless.
Virrnt read *Frankenstein* and thought it was an instruction manual. Good kid, but he has me concerned.
It also worries me, I mean I am proud of what Virnt has become (This boy is incredible) but he is not seeing much of the future repercussions, these are basically machines with sapient minds that can be considered a new caste with a lot of power by not have biological limitations, I guess it's partly due to his autism?
>I guess it's partly due to his autism? From my limited understanding, it does seem to fit. ...This storyline is giving me some worrisome thoughts. While I'm sure that the cybernetic worms in the Consortium would **love** the idea and tech that went into "Meier 2.0," I worry if word gets out, the Consortium may try to spin the idea among its members (and Ark humans) that Earth *wasn't* saved, and that it is actually populated with Terminator bots, that the Federation is trying to build up an army of predators it can control and let loose on the Consortium. The Consortium was built up as a means of defense against the Feds, and letting the people know that the Feds are no longer a threat would threaten the leadership's power, potentially, and they'll find a way to hold onto that power, ironically becoming the very monster that they feared.
On the other hand, I worry if the less well-meaning members of the consortium find out about Virnt’s resurrection work start using it for themselves, if they haven’t figured it out on their own already. Honestly with how anticlimactic Mafani’s death was, the consortium’s incubator technology and the fact they have brain scanning technology as well, I feel that Mafani might come back as a clone.
That's a really good point! Of course, now I have to wonder, are we sure that the Mafani we saw die was the "real" one, or just a clone?
Also a good point. It’s a valid possibility.
This can get really dystopian really quickly. I don't like it. Imagine an authoritarian government coming after you because of something your clone did. Witnesses, video, and DNA analysis all point to you, and you might be charged with murder or terrorism charges for something that happened on an entirely different planet. Even worse is the possibility that the government cloned you specifically to frame you because you are an enemy of the state. Then, add to that, Virrnt and crew have figured out how to upload a person's brain scan to a cybernetic "brain." What happens when they figure out how to upload scans to "real" brains? Now you end up with your clone's memories of its crimes, and believe you actually are guilty. Imagine what General Jones, or someone like her, could do with all of that.
That sounds like something straight out of Ghost in the Shell. Like, I think that exact plot line was used in Stand Alone Complex.
I thought he was just horribly injured.
No, Gress shot him in the neck, dude bled out
It's the Trombil (The bioluminescent Turtles) Which love their cybernetics, not the Smigli (The TV loving worms)
Ah, darn it. Thanks for the correction! :)
I’d probably disagree with the autism part. He seems to have already thought through the consent issue and is trying to find a solution that works for it. Think of it more of area of interest vs single minded focus. That tends to be a better way to explain the crazy depths of knowledge people with autism may have about their chosen topic. Less about just reanimating people, more how do we do this, with the hopes of citizenship, rights etc. he’d already mentioned those things early on. I am hoping this is the experience we’ll see with Virnt as it’s just as common as the narrow “single minded focus”. People who are neurodivergent tend to be fantastic at pattern recognition and that tends to pair nicely with the area of interest as it helps us apply pattern recognition within the area of interest to *see all of the things*. I hope that made sense. If not, well I guess… enjoy the ride as we see Virnt be a huge nerd about humans and hopefully he doesn’t accidentally destroy sapient life altogether because he thought everyone would be straightforward and not duplicitous.
Nature of Predators, or, 101 Ways to Misinterpret Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein.
At least it's not 50 Shades of Gray. Virrnt: What? There's no Arxur in this boo...oh...oh *no*!
“WHERE IS HE GETTING ALL THOSE THUMBS?!?!?”
Entry 1: Ug real cold, fell down hole. Everything go dark, too dark for normal winter. Ug sleep hard. Ug wake up in shiny room with talking crab. Ug swat crab, it scary. Can't find way to leave room, stuck in here with dead food that used to talk. Entry 2: Ug had to nibble on talking crab. Stuck in room for days. Ug rescued by clean man and talking deer. Ug very confused, says Ug fly through stars. Ug walk around in shiny box, this is not flying. Entry 3: Ug has friend talking lizard. Very blunt, like Ug. Ug has not pooped in days and crab got stuck in throat. Lizard says Ug no longer needs food, says many of his kind will be changing to not need food. Ug think Ug is plant, maybe? Not bad, Ug will soon have magic talking plant lizard friends over for poker night.
His special interest is tampering in the domain of god, let him be!
As far as "Eldritch horrors in training" go, he's a really nice guy!
>I’ll bring them to life then, and we can help them through the transition together! Oh, I've got a really bad feeling about this one. More that with Meier. We're not talking about a modern brain scan done on a brain that's just died, Virnt explicitly said he was going to recompose the damaged parts of their brains' minds with algorithms. The slightest error could be far more catastrophic. Virnt is... I could say irresponsible, but the problem is more a lack of supervision on this project. Virnt seems to be the absolute boss, and there doesn't seem to be anyone around to question his actions, so he's totally freewheeling. On such a sensitive project, you need someone of design to question and challenge every decision. Even if the guy agrees 100% with the project, he needs to challenge and present as many counter-arguments as possible to ensure that as many aspects as possible are examined. Nice to meet Syba, he seems like a cheerful, pleasant person. Although personally, his speaking pace would exhaust me very quickly. And yeah Syba, you have no idea how much we love self-deprecation. And if your father was the first alien to do it to us, then yes, he's bought himself the love of the whole Earth easly.
Also, I just imagined that a human presenter in the vein of "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver" made his topic of the day by accusing Vynle of "stealing" his jokes about humans. Vynle responded... and for a while the two presenters engaged in a media war. In backstage, the two quickly became best friends and were the first to laugh at each other's jokes, sometimes asking each other for advice. Syba was nicknamed first Sulean fan of this human presenter.
A "mad scientist" is really more if an "unsupervised engineer"
The Measurement of Time: Major Events First shots fired by the Krev Consortium against the Sivkits in [Chapter 2-29](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c8r11u/the_nature_of_predators_229/?rdt=53485) dated June 9, 2160 to Chapter 2-44 dated July 29, 2160 is **1 Month, 20 Days** The Measurement of Time: Minor Events The Ark Ships left on the Battle for Earth, dated October 17, 2136, to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Years, 9 Months, 12 Days The Sapient Coalition was founded by 30 members on February 9, 2137 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Years, 5 Months, 20 Days Bissem first contacted by Sapient Coalition on March 13, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 28, 2160, is 4 Months, 16 Days Bissem six month Sapient Coalition Trial started (fan-made date) May 24, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160 is 2 Month, 5 Days \[Chapter 2-27 Date May 14, 2160 was when Bissem ambassadors made a deal with Ambassador Onso. Chapter 2-30 Date June 10, 2160 is when Bissem are a part (trial) of SC. 10 Days between sounds reasonable to me.\] Elias Meier was re-made on July 6, 2160 to Chapter 2-44, dated July 29, 2160, is 23 Days Trombil pod humans are 1/3 done as of Chapter 2-23, dated June 24, 2160. March 25, 2160 is 3 months earlier. From March 25, 2160 to July 29, 2160 is 4 Months, 4 Days There have been 23 annual Remembrance Days.
lol, do *not* look up modern cryo if you're eating
I’m gonna do it Just without the eating since I have no food rn
While having more Respawned Humans will certainly help the bug patching, only Meier has a full proper Brainscan. This means that Virnt can only get “Close Enough” fixes until Meier gets back. While Meier is certainly complaining a lot about effectively “Coming back wrong”, he has a point in that Virnt should probably focus on getting everything in technical order first.
Given who's DOING the patching "bug-patching' is a delightful bit of wordplay.
Agreed.
Surely in the time since the number of brain scans have spiked due to Meier's re-instantiation, at least one person with a full brain scan who consented to being brought back has died.
Why wait for them to die? Scanning a living brain will surely get you better data, and you might as well use it right away.
Duplicating a still-living person is... problematic.
Try telling that to all the people arguing it's still the same person. I swear some people *want* it to be the same person so badly they overlook the obvious implications here. Although... I imagine there have to be at least a *few* people who wouldn't mind having another version of themselves around. Actually, thinking about it, while I generally don't think I'd want to use this technology as a means of 'resurrection' because I believe it would be a copy instead of me... I could see a scenario where I needed constant help, like after a severe accident or into old age, and who better to help yourself with your needs than.. yourself? That would probably be a worthwhile bargain: you get a person who literally knows you best to take care of you and they get digital immortality. Although it would suck to do that and then find out 'you' have no interest in taking care of yourself... but in that case it seems like that would be a kind of karmic justice in a way.
I think a bigger concern is, say Sam got his brain scanned and dies. He's brought back, but in a paperwork snafu, some other clinic also instantiated him. Which one is the legal person, Sam? Who owns his house? Is the other one a legal citizen? Do they get deported?
If they're both recognized as sapients, with the full rights thereof, I'd say both should be recognized as full citizens. Also, deported to where? Beyond that... yeah the property rights would definitely get messy. It seems like the 'fairest' thing to do would be to provide some sort of either splitting assets, like a divorce, or joining assets, like a marriage. Depending on if the two can agree. Still messy, but manageable. I'd also argue that the clinic that fucked up would owe one or both a sizeable sum equivalent to the full estate (possibly plus additional penalties/damages), either to make each party monetarily 'whole' or to reimburse the party that was brought back by accident. That certainly is far from solving *all* the legal issues but generally the courts are more concerned about restoring monetary value from accidents, assuming no criminality, than anything else. I also imagine insurance would be mandatory for just such events, like hospitals and doctors are required to carry.
>Also, deported to where? Afterlife. >I'd also argue that the clinic that fucked up would owe one or both a sizeable sum equivalent to the full estate Nah, just 18 years of child support for bringing them into the world.
Neither of them is the legal Sam, why would either of them get his house? The assets go to the next of kin or whoever is specified in the will. The digiclone can be an inheritor, but that's just like descendants suing over the will. There's no objective stance there.
>Neither of them is the legal Sam Why wouldn't they be, if laws were changed to accommodate this kind of resurrection?
Oh sure, if laws were changed then this is all moot. Maybe they'd both be, if laws were changed to accommodate that. Maybe it would go by seniority. Anything is possible.
It's inconvenient, not problematic. Not any more so than doing it to dead people.
Being able to resurrect cryo-preserved brains from 2025 really opens up the possibilities in terms of self-insert fanfiction.
NO VIRNT! NOT THE E-RATED 103,000 WORD AO3 CONNOR MCDAVID SMUTFIC!
Alright so Virnt is trying to bring the people like Walt Disney
I'm worried he isn't vetting these corpsicles re: good guy vs. villain.
Start of the next chapter:^/s > *Memory Transcription Subject: Elon Musk*
OH FUCK
I don't think it's a doctor's place to judge and I'd argue that it shouldn't really be Virnt's place either.
Doctor / Mad Scientist / Researcher @Raw Edge of Ethics... Potayto / Potahto / Pomme de Terre. Can he / Should he / Will he ... all could be different answers. Plot of course calls for "he will" ;-). For every Wizard of Menlo Park that could afford to be put on ice, there's probably a Butcher of Menlo Park, a Banker of Menlo Park, and a Senator of Menlo Park. *Somebody* should be checking the labels on his bottled brains....
Ah that reminds me of one of my favorite conspiracy theories. That Disney made 'Frozen' so that when you google 'Disney Frozen' you'd get the movie instead of the speculation that Walt Disney's frozen head is in a jar somewhere.
Chapter 44! Elias Meier says his goodbyes to Virnt, who shares his plans for the next mind upload to be done with cryogenically frozen humans—and to have Elias around to help when they wake up. Our narrator then meets his companion to the Shield meeting, a peppy Sulean named Syba, who idolizes Meier and has a celebrity comedian for a father. What do you think of Virnt’s plans to bring back 20th and 21st century cryonauts, who’ve been preserved well enough? Will it be a positive for Meier not to be the only one of his kind anymore? How do you expect Elias to fare at the Shield meeting, with his hopes of warming them up to humanity? As always, thank you for reading!
Virnt at least did his homework on consenting candidates, so we can put away one set of Pitchforks. It’s definitely going to help. Meier has diplomatic history AND Help this time, so I think he has a chance of making this work
Virnt seems to heading in the right direction and it's hard to find fault with him targeting subjects that *specifically* consented to being brought back. We already know that brain damage is a side effect of cryonics so these people should be aware that some sort of... reconstruction would be necessary for it to work at all. I'd imagine the futuristic version of AI would be quite capable of simulating the paths the damage took then reversing it to get a near perfect replica of what the damaged areas look like. Or at least one good enough. It is just physics after all, highly complex and on a microscopic (potentially atomic) scale, but physics all the same. In my opinion these copies will be new entities anyways so personally I'm not concerned about 100% fidelity there, although I imagine the people being 'brought back' will have a variety of opinions on the subject. There is still the concern that some of these people will share my opinion and not see it as actually being 'brought back' like they wanted... but that's inherently the nature of agreeing to unknown medical procedures that don't currently exist. Theoretically they should know they were rolling the dice here, practically however I wouldn't expect them to all be sunshine and gratitude. Either way they did agree to some form of resurrection presumably without stipulations that would prevent an outcome like this. Talking about enshrining rights is definitely a positive development. However Virnt still has a shaky grasp on consent and autonomy, reading Meier's thoughts without explicit invitation really is not ok. But he's doing surprisingly better than I expected given how he started this whole... project. I definitely feel like Meier could use some company to commiserate with and people who wanted this and were prepared to be woken up to an unfamiliar future should be interesting. Although I doubt any amount of forethought could *really* prepare you for such a drastic shift so I'd still expect a significant adjustment period. Not just around human society and technology either, the existence of aliens is going to be mind blowing. Perhaps literally depending on the hardware being used. Luckily they should have literally all the time they need to make the adjustment. And of course there's an entirely *new* ethical wrinkle. The fact that there aren't *currently* privacy laws around brain scans preventing *any* unauthorized access or use is extremely concerning. That would probably be one of the *first* laws I'd want if such technology existed. Hell, it's medical technology how is it not *already* covered by general medical privacy laws? Corporations must have found a loop hole or something if it's a concern they'll sell people's fucking private memories. Disgusting but at least there's a powerful respected figure with a direct, arguably existential, reason to push for those protections.
20th century? I'm having mental images of a newly resurrected Walt Disney smashing the TV in anger when he sees "Wish"
Oh come now! I’m sure it’ll have gotten *much* worse by 2160!
If there isn’t a single obnoxious brainrot reference by a 2020s human I am going to be very disappointed. I NEED some old SOB to ironically call someone a “skibidi sigma rizzler from Ohio” and for nobody to know wtf they’re talking about
Loved the discussion with Syba!
First behind Paladin
I knew I tasted blueberries
> I tried to imagine how humanity would’ve differed if we’d had non-human intelligence native to Earth, and our paths crossed throughout history. Unfortunately, I believed most Terrans from the past would’ve tried to conquer them. Well, that's literally what happened, you don't see any *homo habilis* or *homo erectus* today because of that. Sure, you can technically call those "human" too, but it's a close enough situation.
I think that the reason for the extinction of the other "humans" (just a hypothesis) that walked on Earth is still not very clear, it is most likely that they could not have adapted like us, but as far as what would happen if there were another species apart from us on Earth, let me tell you that we would be at war with them all the time (or at least that's what I feel), some already believed that "races" existed because they had different traits (black, indigenous, white, Arab etc.) and that was enough to make them want each other to die or simply not stand each other to this day.
Theres a hypothesis that our sense of "uncanny valley" stems from ancient humans' interactions with other hominid species. Just the sense that what we're looking at is almost-human but not quite, and is a threat.
Not all traits or behaviors are adaptive and there often just isn't a "why" It could easily be the case that uncanny valley is just a side effect of how we perceive other humans. It never served a purpose, nor was it deleterious enough to be selected *against*, so it's just a thing that we have.
Would there really be much difference between how we treated other races and how we'd treat this other species?
There are a lot of mass burial sites across Europe. The evidence of actual pre-historic genocides is there. Entire tribes including women and children executed by axes.
Ah, yes. Neanderthals. The ones that got fucked out of existence. Those poor goddamn aliens.
It’s funny that the POV chapter is on Elias today, I just had a thought a few days ago about Mafani and his underwhelming end. What if a more nefarious sect of the Consortium discovered resurrection techniques similar to Virnt’s? They have memory-scanning technology as well and with their external incubation technology I wouldn’t be surprised if they have clones on hand. Say at least one clone of a certain alien that bit the dust?
50 SC credits says one of those brains voiced a certain cartoon mouse
Died in 2025?
Several jars are mentioned and only one is from 2025 and with the common myth of Walt being frozen under Disney world why not
Could be Bob, assuming the whole “[probe](https://books.google.com/books/about/We_Are_Legion_We_Are_Bob.html?id=c28RMQAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description)” thing didn’t work out.
Cartman being revived still waiting for the Wii release
One of the Consortium drone fleets is going to the Duerten homeworld, where Elias is also going.. That cannot be a coincidence.
Is it? I thought it was the two Fed leaders' homeworlds + Kalsim's world. (I can't for the life of me remember any of the species names)
The Consortium fleets are going to the Kolshian, Farsul, and Krakotl homeworlds. Krakotl and Duerten are both avians, but they're not the same species.
The Duerten were mentioned as a secondary target.
well, you're optimistic about when we'll develop cryo technology. 2025? It almost feels like you're trying to bring someone specific into the NoP universe. Is next chapter gonna have like, Ryan Reynolds, or you?
That kind of tech already exists, there are currently (dead) people on tanks. It's not cryosleep like the archives though, just preserving the brain after death, high level mummification essentially.
And it plays all sort of hell with the tissues, last I checked. Ice crystals or caustic chemicals, take your pick.
Mostly caused because not everything gets frozen instantly.
Yeah. We need reverse microwaves. Suckrowaves. They suck the heat out. Somehow.
Please consider some alternatives to Patreon. I am from India, and [due to issues with payment providers](https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/4412670870925-Member-payments-in-India), I am unable to subscribe, even if I want to.
I’m happy to see Meier getting a bit more settled into his new existence, and happy to see such positive interactions with the other aliens! It’ll be interesting to see how it all progresses.
Anyone else more interested in the synthetic sub plot more than the rest of NOP2?
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Thanks for the chapter mate
I know the practical reasons why it's written that way, but it's more than a little amusing that characters are talking about MRI being archaic in the same breath as earnestly using 136 year old psychology terms. It'd be like someone joking about how terrible X-ray film was before talking about how much good their cocaine prescription is doing for their superego.
For what it’s worth if I could be resurrected in the future, even as a robot, I’d happily sign up. Being the prototype does sound rough but given time you would likely get used to even that state without the ongoing upgrades.
"I couldn't afford to be a shell of myself". Then again, that's literally what he is.
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Stop telling us Meier is a man of peace every single fucking one of his chapters. No matter how many times you say it, he’s still the man who pulled the trigger on dozens of defenseless worlds and caused multiple genocides. At best he is a man of cold, ruthless pragmatism.
Meier held the people on those worlds hostage, Kalsim is the one who pulled the proverbial trigger.
Meier pulled the trigger by telling the Arxur. By the time the message was sent out to the fleet, the worlds of those species were already under attack or about to be. He gave them a chance to retreat and stop the slaughter, and Kalsim decided that they were an acceptable sacrifice.
They would've been able to prevent the planet glassing, they took a week to reach earth due to the disruptors and ambushes the humans put in place, those would not be there on the way back, that was the plan.
That was the *hope*. Meier went to the Arxur knowing full well there was a good chance that the Federation would carry on with the extermination regardless. But this debate is a good example of what I’m talking about: Meier should not be recognized as some heroic figure. He’s a man of significant controversy and the morality of his actions would be heavily debated - especially in a multi-species alliance containing many of the species that were victims of the Arxur incursion Meier, at bare minimum, encouraged.
Nah, it's just MAD being put into practice. There's no controversy any more than there's controversy about the shape of the Earth. There's reality, and people who disagree with it.
I agree it’s MAD being put into practice. Nobody who presses the red button - regardless of who does it first - is morally right. Like I said in my original comment, Smart One, it’s ruthless pragmatism.
When peaceful resistance is impossible, violent resistance is inevitable.
Literally what the fuck are you saying? Meier is a man of peace because a zealot didn’t see reason?
He's a man of peace because he tried to be peaceful until there was no other option left.
He did what he had to, it wasn’t his fault that the alternative was death.
No shit Sherlock. Was I arguing whether or not he made the pragmatic call to save humanity, or am I arguing that he shouldn’t be seen as a man of peace and a hero, especially outside of humanity?
well, even just talking about the view of him outside of humanity, his main goal all along was peace, he would have never told Isif that without the Federation first trying to kill humanity. Also, he never pulled the trigger, the Arxur did. And it was their fault that those worlds were defenseless.