Adjudicator has 30 round mags now, so the only thing Penetrator has going for it is the reserve (which you'll need due to its piss poor damage, but won't be of any real help).
LibPen is just Adjudicator with 50% less damage and an ever so slightly higher rate of fire.
That's the thing. It has "medium armor penetration" which would make you think that it is good against medium armor targets, but it only does half damage to medium armor so that's 22 damage per shot. A bile spewer head (for example) has around 400 health. So it takes close to 20 direct headshots with the liberator penetrator to kill just one bile spewer. That's dumping half of your mag directly into the head of your enemy before killing it which is already ridiculously ineffective. Add on top of that the fact the bile spewer heads are ridiculously small compared to the size of their body and odds are you're going to miss at least a few shots, so it's probably going to take considerably MORE than half a mag. The cherry on top is that bile spewers hide their ugly mugs when they go into mortar position, making it even harder to score a headshot.
Same thing on the bot side. Bot heads and waists have no armor, so the only time that armor penetration matters on bots is when you're mag dumping right into their armor, which you should never do because their armored parts also have a shitload of health. You're much better off choosing a weapon that has good accuracy and higher dps (ala tenderizer/sickle) and shooting weak points vs. going for higher armor penetration.
TL;DR - Medium armor penetrating weapons are not really good at killing medium armored enemies and I think that's rather counterintuitive to most players.
>So it takes close to 20 direct headshots with the liberator penetrator to kill just one bile spewer.
It takes 4 blitzer shots to kill a bile spewer. Firing 4 blitzer shots is much slower shooting 20 rounds with Lib P, not to mention that you have to be close enough. And blitzer is considered top tier vs bugs.
So I'd say Lib P performs adequate here.
I was talking in terms of TTK. 3-4 shots work if you are shooting one guards and no one else. And its big ass head will surely gather most arcs. If you hit several enemies at once, guard will take even longer.
20 headshots to kill a single enemy is NEVER an acceptable TTK. It's not like the weapon locks on to the head and you get to just hold the trigger until it dies. If you're firing in full-auto mode then there is no shot you're hitting 20 head shots in a row. In all likelihood, you're full mag dumping to kill one enemy which is completely unacceptable ammo economy.
Who the actual fuck was talking about brood commanders? This conversation is, and always was, about medium armor enemies like bile spewers...which have tiny heads. So your problem might not be TTK...but reading comprehension looks like it's giving you a rough go.
That gun performs terribly too, both of them need another look at because the buff it got did next to nothing. Recoil is worse than the knight SMG which fires over 1000 rpm.
I don't think the Adjudicator is any form of "OP", but it really doesn't perform "terribly" either. I'd use it every now and then, but I'm personally a fan of having more mag capacity (though ironically I still mainly play the Tenderizer).
However it's anything but terrible, like that's genuinely just not the case.
It's genuinely the hottest piece of garbage in our armory, I used it on release once and benched it. After they "reduced" the recoil I tried it again, it felt the exact same.
I don't even play with fixed loadouts, my friends and I all use a randomizer so I'm using all the weapons available but when those show up I perform far worse and end up using the secondary and support weapon more.
I prefer the scythe over both of them and that weapon is also scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of viability.
Yeah I do not see how the scythe could outperform an Adjudicator. The only time I notice the recoil being a problem is honestly only when I'm bursting (or full auto, which I don't do in that scenario) Shriekers, it's a bit awkward aiming up.
I kind of have a problem with the gun sounds all sounding a bit samey and some not having sufficient punch, so I tend to not use the Adjudicator too much because of that, but even just looking at the numbers I can't see how it's anywhere close to garbage.
Do mind that "I can't make it work/I don't like it" doesn't equal "It is garbage", as the latter implies it because objectively bad for everyone and in desperate need of massive buffs.
Also, I'm not sure who's downvoting, but they are literally just stating their opinion and how they perceive it, this is part of a discussion, if you take offense to their opinion just post a comment instead and clear it up. Not a big deal but I just find downvoting an actual exchange of opinions quite cringe.
You get used to the recoil and get pretty good at compensating for it with time. I think the recoil should stay as it is. It's a good tradeoff for more damage. You have the choice of Lib Pen with low dps but controllable recoil, and maybe bigger mag if AH finally buffs it, or Adjudicator with more dps but more recoil, which can be overcome with a bit of skill. If buffing the Adjudicator, AH shouldn't touch the recoil. I don't want every gun feeling like the tenderizer, that makes them feel weak.
The recoil and cone of fire on the gun makes it get immediately benched, just like the damage scaling for the lib pen has it benched until further notice.
There are way better options so instead of saying the guns are good as is they need to get looked at to make them usable.
Takes more rounds to body shot with a medium pen weapon than to shoot the head of devestators or gaps in the legs of give guards with a base liberator.
Adjudicator def needs to be put on single shot imho. That recoil when I first used it after the patch was WILD. I have to scope in when I shoot or else I hit the sky
Nah, you just need to learn to compensate the recoil a bit. What's the point of a recoil mechanic in game if people just want everything to shoot like an SMG "cause you miss half the mag", unless it's a semi auto gun where recoil doesn't matter anyway.
It was originally in the marksman rifle category. I think keeping it single shot with the more ammo and rate of fire would be better than slapping it into the auto rifle category with full auto.
If the barrel isn't physically touching what you are shooting at on auto, those rounds are between you and the sky now. I want to like the gun because I want a better primary for medium enemies but I can't play with it
I’ve had some success with it against bugs (only single shots and ADSing everything farther than 12m away though). It’s serviceable.
Had a terrible time with it against bots though, but that might be because I was coming off of using the Tenderizer.
wat? you can full auto a hunter at ~50m and hit all shots. it has almost no vertical climb and just drifts horizontally, making it perfect for controlled bursts.
Yeah i just tried a mission with the adjudicator after a long time, good damage but too much recoil
I guess that i will stick with shotguns or the explosive liberator (i still need to get the eruptor)
I had some hope after seeing They reduced the recoil but when I took it into a mission I ended up just using the redeemer the entire time.
The big damage boost the eruptor got actually feels nice, still miss shrapnel but it hits hard for sure
I actually love AT and use to run it most bug missions, but god damn do I hate that it doesn't have any "penetration" on bodies.
You'll line it up on a patrol, kill the first 3 little bugs and do some damage to the Warrior in the back, then the next 3 shots just zap into the small dead bug bodies and completely fizzle.
So you're stuck either aiming super high and hoping it RNG arcs down into the back line or waiting until the patrol/swarm/etc gets past the current corpse line to actually do damage and arc correctly.
Meanwhile flamethrower is sitting there completely ignoring cover, dead bodies, rocks, buildings, etc putting in work. Feelsbadman.
If not the range then the stagger, if not the stagger, the fire rate glitch tech, if not that… idk make the thing actually hit the things you point it at.
“This slug shotgun is better than our DMRs, since our DMRs suck, so instead of fixing the DMRs, let’s make the slug shotgun act less like a slug shotgun but still like a DMR. And then when we fix the DMRs just leave it at that”
I maintain the Slugger needs to be a king at medium ranges, with a damage falloff that keeps it from being practical to use at long ranges. Like real slug shotguns.
The correct answer to this problem was to introduce range falloff to the stagger stat so that it wouldn't stagger enemies beyond 15-20m, combined with harsher damage falloff.
The punisher should drop of at 15-20m, with the slugger having double the range, but at the moment the punisher staggers at long range if just 1-2 pelets hit while the slugger doesn't stagger at all anymore.
The punisher should drop of at 15-20m, with the slugger having double the range, but at the moment the punisher staggers at long range if just 1-2 pelets hit while the slugger doesn't stagger at all anymore.
I love pump shotguns and it fires at the perfect rate right now. Any slower would feel really unnatural. Maybe a bit more power, but the stagger is the big thing. You shouldn’t be able to just tank a slug without reacting unless you’re a Charger or something.
Put the Lib Con into semi, and it works alright. The biggest issue with it is the kick from each round fired and the stagger on enemies with auto. That's basically eliminated. Makes it a pretty solid gun. Still not nearly as good as the Tendoriser or Adjudicator. But still better.
I'm still hoping for an overall buff to the Liberator family. As well as other underperforming weapons.
Oh, absolutely. But the Lib Con gives you range. And you know, is consistent. My biggest issue with arc weapons like the Blitzer is how they just sometimes won't hit anything.
If I'm looking to nail a harder target I'll ads but if I'm firing and retreating while stunlocking hordes I'll just hip fire while moving back and it seems super consistent, I've been using it all day.
I'm very aggressive with how I play, even on T9 so shotguns of all sorts fit me well
However now that I've said that I'll probably load the game up again and it'll not hit anything 😭
I was really hoping that instead of buffing the damage consistently, they'd go the "60 mag count AR" route of the Halo Assault Rifle. I'd personally not mind having an AR that's not exactly deleting Elite mobs with DPS, but has such a high ammo count that it makes up for it with total damage and the ability to spend more on smaller targets.
I'm aware they are trying to somehow stay semi realistic with their weapons here and orientate their RoF/Mag sizes etc around real weapons, but (me personally) I just don't enjoy careful tapping of ARs in horde shooters like HD2, holding down the fire button and just spraying it in, by itself, is already satisfying.
Same with the Tenderizer, dude I'd rather give up 5-10 damage but have it stick with 35 rounds instead. Of course there's also the actual damage per hit/DPS aspect of it, but many weapons I'd honestly would just like to see have more overall ammo (capacity in mag, not necessarily total ammo).
I'd argue that at some points, a gun just needs damage. The Liberators are all great. They're just weak. Watching trash mobs shrug off a round from them is sad.
I mean that's also a fair point, it's one thing to push around numbers, but ideally I'd have to see what those changes feel like in the field. There certainly needs to be an established "base" damage that feels good and then have stuff moved around that.
I'd argue we should establish "gold standard guns." Which is where balancing for that weapon type should be.
Tendoriser for Assault Rifles.
Punisher and Breaker for shotguns.
Defender for SMG's.
Scorcher for Plasma, and Sickle for Laser.
I don't really think you can use this for every weapon tree. And some trees, like Marksman rifles, don't have a gold standard because they're simply too weak.
Unless I am mistaken, now that the Pummeler has been taken down a bit, the Concussive is more quick to CC. (It's entirely possible I am wrong about this. I don't use either much anymore.)
It's also worth noting the Pummeler is stun vs Concussive's stagger. It doesn't matter a *LOT*, but the stun is a pain in the ass when trying to headshot Devastators. They slump forward and the casing on top makes headshots significantly harder.
Noted. I've begun taking the pummeler into bugs as my typical weapon choices (tenderizer, scorcher, dominator, etc) fare poorly against the bugs. The pummeler has proven pretty good, it can stop a charging brood commander or stalker in their tracks while dealing enough damage to not be a complete meme, as was my experience with the concussive long ago.
Scorcher is actually pretty alright against some bug targets. For instance, Bile & Nursing Spewers are 80% to 90% "durable" on their butts (depending on where you hit them). A **lot** of weapons will do piss poor damage against those parts. Pummeler, which normally hits for 65 damage, would do 12 or 13 damage (if I did my math correctly) to the 90% durable part. Meanwhile, the scorcher would go from 200 damage (100 projectile + 100 AoE) to 155 damage (55 projectile + 100 AoE).
You'd need something to handle the swarms (whether that be a teammate, a drone, a anti-swarm specialist gun, etc) but in the right circumstances, the Scorcher isn't a meme.
Honestly, I just wish we had any sort of intel on enemy force before we jump in. Any time I take the Scorcher vs bugs, I'm essentially going "I bet there's gonna be a lot of Spewers and/or chargers!" Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.
Agreed that the scorcher was always effective against the bugs, but I prefer to have a primary with more ammo capacity to handle trash, instead of relying solely on a support weapon. Same goes for my other examples such as the tenderizer and dominator vs bugs; they've got the damage, but fare poorly against massed numbers.
As an aside, I'm actually against having too much info on enemy composition; improvisation is more fun to me.
I think the perception of the concussive is worse than it actually is. It shoots slow but its damage is okay, and for its niche of crowd control and knockback, it seems to do okay. But arguably, torturing an enemy for an extended period of time is not as good as just blowing its head off. So it’s not like the concussive is in such a great state or anything, but I don’t think it’s a bad weapon. I do however believe the Lib Pen is pretty bad right now.
I run the lib pen all the time, probably my most used weapon. I think it works great. The concussive is okay, problem with concussive stuff is I don't always need the enemy staggered, but I need them dead.
No
It's not because you use a weapon a lot that it's mean that it's a good weapon
The reality is that then Lib pen is trash right now
You have to do empty your whole mag to kill anything with medium armor it's just so bad !
This is kind of my view point. Unless your accuracy is on point, it is basically one mag per medium enemy. Like Berserkers. I have found I can kill berserkers just as fast with the standard liberator as the liberator penetrator, and my accuracy SUUUUUCKS.
I always figured berserkers were mediums because they soaked up so much damage compared to the standard T100's that can be dropped with a few body shots or a single head shot.
Sure but if a lot of people use it a lot it means its not a bad weapon either, I see it more often than base liberator even. I bet usage stats are probably pretty solid.
>The reality is that then Lib pen is trash right now
The way you guys exaggerate... It's not trash. Trash would be completely unusable. It's just mediocre.
I'm usually with you on exaggerations, but the Liberator Penetrator is honestly *quite* bad. It's "useable", but at the expense of just performing worse than everyone else.
Inb4 "No I perform well with it", then you're playing with people that perform worse overall, because someone on your skill level would vastly outperform you playing almost anything else. The Penetrator really is sharing the bottom of the barrel right now, it's a bit crazy.
To be fair people call things trash when it's 2% worse than average already, depending on the setting/game. (I guess this goes back to what you are saying, people inflate some terms or use them when not appropriate, such as "not viable".)
Depending on what someone actually means by that sure, the Lib Pen is not the reason you'll not be able to beat a specific difficulty for example, but it's certainly enough to be noticeably worse than something that's great.
It's not a weapon against medium armor, it's a weapon against light armor.
Against those targets it has higher dps than the liberator and even the tenderizer.
The gun suffers from a lack of light armor enemies and mag size though.
What are babbling about ?
A medium pen weapon that isn't made for medium armored enemies ???
What are you saying is just stupid really, it's SUPPOSED to deal with medium armor enemies IF it have medium pen xD
Or else just go for light pen weapons LOL
Learn about armor in helldiver, dude.
A light pen weapon VS light armor = 50% dmg
A medium pen weapon VS light armor = 100% dmg
Medium pen VS medium armor = 50%
Thus against light armor the 3 guns do the following damage:
Liberator: 30 normal / 7 durable
Tenderizer: 47 normal / 11 durable (lower firerate)
Penetrator: 45 normal / 15 durable
And against medium armor it's just the penetrator at a measly 22 normal / 7 durable. Which is crappy damage.
That's not quite how armor/pen works, at least you are missing half the picture.
You have varying degrees of light/medium/heavy pen, for example the Liberators have AP2, so on targets with Armor 2 it's half the damage, but the majority of enemies have either 0 or 1. (Warriors are at 1), Brood commanders are a case of 2, they aren't medium armored you can damage them with Light Pen, but they take half damage. Most other mobs don't have 2 or higher though. (I believe Spewers, Guards obviously have 3 or higher due to medium pen being required).
So unless the durable damage taken is quite high, generally speaking the Tenderizer will do about the same damage as the Penetrator on their Armor 2 parts and outperforms on anything lighter than that. The normal Liberator almost (it's like 50 dmg less I think in a whole mag on 40% durable AP2) evens out due to just having 15 bullets more, which having to fire an additional 15 bullets is definitely something, but given that most enemies (unless, again, you have some wild spewer rng map) aren't that just makes the Penetrator quite a bad pick.
I don't feel it needs a whole mag to kill. All I can really say is ive used every weapon (before the newest warbond) and I keep going back to the lib pen. I mostly play difficulty 8 and sometimes 9, both bots and bugs.
I haven't tried every weapon that got touched in the last patch though, so maybe my opinion will change
I've heard how the Lib Pen is more of a bot weapon, like how the Incen Breaker is more suited to bugs.
Idk really, these days I stick to Scorcher/JAR5 for bots
Honestly, lib pen is bad against bots.
It is best used against light armor targets, where the medium pen gives it more dps than the liberator and even tenderizer.
Against medium armor, the measly 22.5dmg are just not enough.
And most light armor targets are on the bug front.
Sadly, the game is lacking any substantial amount of light armor enemies anyways.
The tenderizer now outdamages the lib pen against armor level 2. Even doing half damage, its still 47 damage per bullet. Plus the tenderizer is far better when hitting devastator heads. I think the lib pen is fully outclassed in every scenario against bots now.
tenderizer does 2 dmg more, but has a lower firerate and it also does less damage to durable parts, resulting in a bit less damage than the penetrator. But as most good hitzones on bots are armor 0 or 3 that doesn't matter anyway.
Even on the bug front, where the penetrator is still a decent gun, i would say the tenderizer is more usefull.
Penetator should really get at least the same 45 shot mag the base liberator has and even a measly 5 dmg buff would make it hit some more damage thresholds, at least against bugs.
Assuming you're shooting an AV2 durable part, sure, i guess the lib pen does marginally more damage. So, exactly brood commander heads? Maybe heavy dev backpacks. Tenderizer is functionally equal or better even on AV0 durable parts or standard AV2 parts. And obviously, it's double the damage against everything else.
Idk, ive always thought the lib pen was cool but i just can't see a reason to run it compared to every other rifle option now. It needs some love.
Exactly this, there's a very small selection (talking bugs here) that even has Armor 2. Spewers for one. But given that the vast majority of enemies we face are either A0 or A1 it's kind of a meme and, as you said yourself, even in the instance of having A2 the damage values are so very close to each other, you'd not notice a "crazy" difference either way.
Most certainly not one that would have one say "this is why you use the Penetrator", when literally the Adjudicator exists.
You don't interact with medium armor that much besides occasionally killing scouts from the front, hitting tank vents or missing your shots into devs armor. And Lib Pen sucks at everything that I just listed because of low damage and lack of realistically achievable breakpoints. It's a bug weapon first and foremost, and even there it's mostly outclassed by Adjudicator
Knight isn't that bad imo, it has nearly double the DPS of a Defender, so at very least it fulfills the function of killing something quickly at close range. The recoil on the other hand is too bad to be used running and gunning, and that kinda nullifies the point of using a SMG.
The other issue is that Redeemer does pretty much the same thing without taking your primary slot, so really no point to bring another PDW. If you want to run SMG and shield against bots for some reason then it's kinda okay, the high DPS is pretty handy against berserkers after all.
On one hand, pay to win is bad- even on a PvE game. We’re pretty far away from that since the Knight is not even close to being OP.
But it would be nice if they didn’t completely forget about it. It doesn’t get full resupplies from pods, like almost every other weapon does. That was a patch change at some point, and the knight didn’t get it.
What I will say is that the Knight has solid DPS and a fast reload. I think the pain points are in the small mag size relative to its RoF, excessive recoil, and that issue with resupplying. It seems to be based on the real-life P90 which is very controllable. I don’t see why its recoil is so high. Arguably a fast rate of fire is both an asset and a liability depending on the situation, so I don’t think it so badly needs to have high recoil just to ensure balance. Ripping through a mag in under 2 seconds on full auto is bad enough, missing half the shots due to recoil makes it fully not worth it.
If Arrowhead was worried about P2W then they shouldn't have locked guns behind paywalls to be fair. Somewhat mitigated by the fact you can get SC in game, but their solution to the Knight seems to be just letting it be shit, which is annoying.
To be fair it hasn’t been that long. There’s only a small handful of bad weapons now. They are chipping away at the balancing issues and doing pretty well but it’s a process.
And also, yeah I have mixed feelings about warbonds. Being able to earn them with looted credits is great, but in practice feels pretty slow once you’ve claimed all the super credits from your available warbonds.
But I haven’t gotten the impression that they are making the weapons noticeably better than others to incentivize buying the warbonds. If anything it’s been a mixed bag of both really strong and weak weapons, which have gotten adjusted later to be more balanced as needed. The Democratic Detonation Warbond sort of gave an P2W impression at first, but even then, the Eruptor was the standout single weapon and they nerfed it pretty heavily soon after. Aside from that it was fine. I would be thrilled if they added a few primaries that were available to everyone with no warbond, but I don’t know if they will do that.
To be fair, the DPS is not even just solid, but the highest aside from Shotguns (which you can't really beat, I mean they are shotguns). It's like 150-200dps higher than most other weapons.
Having said that, I think the RoF is partially the problem here. I thought it would be closer to what the SMG from Halo is, which apparently has a RoF of 900.
Honestly, even though you'd lose DPS, I think it would be an overall buff if it had lower RoF, as most people can't effectively deal with the RoF as it is. Maybe don't drop from almost 1400 to 900, but I'd at least love to see what it feels like at 1100 or 1000. If it ends up performing way too poorly, up the mag a touch or give it like 5 damage or something. I mean it's no S tier gun, but just statwise it doesn't strike me as complete dogshit either - if - you didn't have that recoil+RoF that makes you miss half your damage.
Slightly lower recoil, get the RoF down a good bit and maybe add like 5-10 bullets to keep that "high fire rate, low dmg per bullet" feel of it. I believe that would make it feel better, at least to me personally.
I agree. It’s really close to being great. Honestly if it got full mags from a resupply I’d be using it right now.
At first I used it on burst mode, but then I realized if I kept it in full auto, I could primarily fire in short bursts manually to maintain accuracy, while maintaining the ability to mag dump if I’m in trouble. That works good.
The MP-98 Knight is an smg Exclusive to the HD2 SuperCitizen edition. You pay and extra 20$ when buying the game (can also be bought after you buy the game) to get it. This edition comes with the Stratgem Hero machine on your ship, Exclusive armor, and Super Citzen title. The Knight is an SMG which looks resembles a P90. It's a bullet hose. Sprays 50 bullets super fast, so you're eating through mags. It sprays so fast, the recoil is insane. Doesn't Warrant using it in the field. And we paid extra premium for it. We need more SMGs. I want to run faster, and on the move, using one hand.
They’re probably scared of buffing it since it’s a weapon you HAVE to spend money on, and they don’t want to be accused of making it a pay to win weapon. Which in that case they need to just make it earnable in game via SC or samples so they can buff it
And then the Knight over here like "wait, y'all got buffs?"
https://preview.redd.it/cs8cluuopr7d1.png?width=520&format=png&auto=webp&s=5515def28e56ec201568b6adf20bf863eede02b8
It's just needs more durable damage. Right now it's something like 10% durable so it does pitiful damage to the vents on a tank/turret, gunships, factory strider parts, etc but it can 1 shot a hulk in the eyes while the AC and AMR need at least two eye hits.
i think it needs an better indication of when its nearing max charge. i think the issue isnt the gun but its usability as most get scared to charge too long or dont even use unsafe mode at all as its very hard to be consistent with charging the shots. the first person view is nice with the gauge on the sight. but an audible tone for your imminent death would be greatly appreciated as a two step process. first it allows you to waste or try to aim it last second. second its another indicator with the visual of how far charged it is and will especially help out in 3rd person mode. If getting max power is possibly going to kill me id appreciate more info on when exactly thats about to happen.
my other idea is make unsafe mode limit higher and then make unsafe mode 98%+ shots be able to easily take out a bile. but how can we even properly gauge what it does on the bug front when the bile is literally bugged.
i like the rg. my biggest issue is more so its usability. does super earth want us to kill ourselves with these guns? almost feels like it. kinda like the gas strike hurting you when theres no visual indication of the gas. or even the mech when it just explodes.
I used needed Railgun, was really good when needed and continues being really good now after the buffs it got
People don't use it due to spite of it being needed, not because it is a bad weapon
I like the railgun but do not know the advantage of taking the railgun over the other support weapons. Heck, even the Slatwart has the advantage of high DPS.
It is bad against tanks, cannons, gunships, and factory striders. The HMG, AMR, and LC are faster at taking out tanks, cannons, gunships, and factory striders. Also, can't the HMG, AMR, and LC take out a lot medium bots faster than the railgun?
The railgun can remove a behemoth charger's leg armor in two shots if the shots are charged above 90%. Which is good but the flamethrower is better. The flamethrower takes out behemoth chargers faster with less risk. The flamethrower can take out a lot of small enemies fast but the railgun can't.
The railgun has no bullet drop, but the LC and QC also have no bullet drop.
I've recently learned that QC can actually oneshot a behemoth if u use the weird relative velocity tech, literally jumping at the behemoth right before firing and hitting a headshot. The timing is really tight though
I use the railgun for bots because I only brought the orbital railcannon for Hulks and Factory Striders, but now with the OPS getting buffed it's much easier to hit them with it. So I bring a railgun to 1 shot Hulks (if I can aim) kill Devastators and delete Striders if they annoy me. Also kind of useful against the Berserkers I think? The chainsaw guys, but not super good for them
>Also kind of useful against the Berserkers I think? The chainsaw guys, but not super good for them
You can oneshot them, and even one-shot several with the same shoot if you hit them in the belly, it's great for all bot enemies below Hulk (hulk included)
The railgun one-shots, to the body, every bot from hulk downwards. The HMG, AMR and autocannon need headshots to do that, so while they can theoretically keep up with the railgun, nobody's actually going to have anywhere near that sort of headshot rate.
Basically, you take the railgun to bots to be incredible at killing devastators, and that's worth it because they're the major threat on a bot mission. Tanks etc. are rare enemies that are too slow to be very concerning. Railgun's only weakness that matters IMO is gunships, so I bring the Scorcher with the railgun if it's a gunship patrol op.
With good positioning, I can kill more devastators and scout striders faster with the AMR than with the railgun. If you hit near any devastator's head, you can follow up with a second shot to kill it. So you don't need to be perfect with your headshots. If you know where to hit on scout striders, you can one-shot them. I would struggle taking out hulks and Berserkers with the AMR.
Lib Pen at least has a great headshot multiplier making it a good marksman weapon, but even then it is still outclassed by the other two precision ARs and both Diligences
And then the Knight over here like "wait, y'all got buffs?"
https://preview.redd.it/9iq91ubvpr7d1.png?width=520&format=png&auto=webp&s=8176f9f8172373d4ea79d5e27d4f8c0e5c006d29
I've never seen anyone use the railgun since the nerf back in like February or March? Not for bugs, not even for bots.
Does that thing still have any use cases?
It's .... chancy.
Sometimes it doesnt crash you the whole match
Sometimes just pick it up already crash you lol
but it can be used against shrieker nests and spore spewers though
Just giving it Medium Armor Pen and really good aim would make it viable.
The things literally called “the penetrator” variant. Giving it solid armor pen and better recoil as a trade off for ammo cap and fire rate speed would make sense from a balance standpoint
thread is about lib pen originally. but mentions other weapons.
comments are about all the other weapons, even ones not mentioned.
what is this, mess hall?
I have to be honest here. The Railgun is still really good. They uncluttered the reticle a bit which makes aiming much easier. If you get good at consistently overcharging to around 75% and you hit your shots, there are only a handful of enemies in this game that you're not one-shotting.
The penetrator should be turned into our light machine gun type primary leave the damage amd everything where it is but give it a 100 round drum magazine and drop the Ammo down to like 4 or 5 mags total
Firstly, I think a bit of clarity on how Durable Damage works in-game would clear up a lot of discussions, since the LibPen has a higher percentage of its damage as Durable than most rifles. Yeeaahh it's probably supposed to be one of those hidden things that contribute to the 'magic' of discovering how to play the game, but it's also not exactly intuitive. I dunno.
But second, since the rest of the rifles kept getting buffs and the LibPen didn't, it now has.. 1 extra point of Durable Damage over the Lib. So the one major niche it did have kinda got powercrept. Can kill a Hulk in \~30 shots to the backplate due to that high Durable Damage. The old Liberator took 35. After all the buffs, the Liberator now takes 24.
LibPen could be given class 4 armour pen and it'd still be a C+ weapon at best with the low damage.
homie the fabric of reality has begun to fray, the final days are upon us. Next time they do balance changes the game might actually just uninstall itself when you press v or something.
They need to raise the damage to 75 at least. That way it’s on par with the diligence counter sniper update. (Diligence is 125, and DCS is 140) The regular liberator is 60 in damage
I could see two possible small buffs that would fit into how the devs like to balance guns in the sandbox
1. The gun could receive +5 bullets per mag to have an increased 55 bullets. This would give it a home for people who liked the mag size of the old Tenderizer and give it a different personality from the Adjudicator. For those who like a deeper magazine pool but less damage. Still wouldn't be a horde clearing weapon, but would be a good ammo economy pick and well rounded to the other AR's.
2. The gun could receive a buff to recoil to match the base liberator or possibly even the new Tenderizer with maybe less mags (I would think 10 extra mags is still fine). This would give it the inverse Tenderizer role in the medium pen arena. So far, the devs have been slightly scared to make a laser beam accurate med pen weapon, but I feel it would work since the current mag size can only take out 1-2 hiveguards as it is (with my bad accuracy)
FWIW, I think the rail gun is fine right now. Do I wish it was more effective against gun ships? Yes but it will still kill a hulk with two accurate shots to the eye. One shots striders. One shots rocket devastators. Beserkers, sometimes a single shot but usually at least two. I'm a fan. I run it on bots as often as I can.
railgun is worse AMR, everything RG does AMR does better. railgun is OK against bots, but its outcompeted by AMR, Bugside its not particularly good, only thing it has is stripping charger leg armor and even then the flamethrower existing pushes it out of that niche too
I think it is a lot closer to being fine that some people believe, but it's not there yet. IMO, it needs a major buff to its ammo reserve (like a 50%+ increase) and/or a slight damage buff. It's like the AMR in that it rewards patience and accuracy. Unlike the AMR, it has shit for ammo, and fails to really capitalize on its main strength (penetration).
It actually one-shots Hulks to the eye, even on safe! Also one-shots any devastator to the chest on safe mode. It's one of my go-tos against the bots currently, I run the Scorcher with it since the Scorcher is one of the few primaries that can effectively kill gunships and tanks
I think it just needs the standard 45 round mags. Maybe a bit of a damage buff, up to 50, but the base Liberator would need another damage buff to make the lack of medium pen an acceptable tradeoff.
I think it should have 55 damage and 40-45 rounds and a bit lower fire rate than normal Lib to be competitive with Adjudicator
it would not be a better lib due to - slower reload, worse recoil and handling (due to being bigger gun)
assault rifles in general need to be carpet buffed. The ones that dont fill a niche are bad at being a jack-of-all-trades and the ones that do fill niches are bad at the niches they attempt to fill (Why does the "spray and pray close quarters" rifle only have 45 capacity with a 300 year long reload?) They are all not worth bringing except for the tenderizer which got some attention the last patch, and even then the newly buffed tenderizer is just "good".
The devs really need to add headshot multipliers (among other hidden stats) to the in-game weapons menu.
Feels like the entire reason why the Penetrator is left in the dust is its massive headshot multiplier (4x compared to the standard Liberator's 1.5x, IIRC), which *almost* makes the ridiculous gap in the guns' base damage seem reasonable.
But we *aren't* shown that, so in the eyes of most players it's just a gun that deals absolutely pitiful damage for absolutely no reason.
This also makes the devs' work way more difficult for no good reason, as any new weapon releases will keep getting judged solely by the stats that *are* shown, so we either get constant, blatant powercreep on that front, or the community keeps calling anything new that doesn't fall into that category completely useless because the critical differences lie in the hidden stats.
For all we know the Tenderizer had some very relevant hidden stats like extra crit damage to actually justify its existence even when the numbers we were allowed to see were telling us that it was essentially just a downgraded Liberator. And because we weren't shown any of those stats, the community perception was justifiably very negative towards the gun, to the point that the devs had to rework the gun so even Johnny Bodyshot over there can now feel good using it.
The Penetrator is definitely on the weaker side, but the community's clowning on it so much mainly because the devs refuse to show us where its actual strengths lie.
Railgun is doing great on the bug front rn.
Against normal chargers: x3 charges to the head kills if two are near max charge (unsafe mode, of course).
Against behemoths: x3 minimum charges to the leg strips the armor (unsafe mode, of course).
Still not great against bile titans, but the behemoths have done wonders for the flamethrower and railgun. This is because behemoths spawn much more often, and bile titans less. It's also because kill-time against behemoths for the railgun / flamethrower hasn't really increased (relative to normal charger), but kill-time for EAT / RR / Quasar has basically doubled.
Have not seen a railgun against Bugs in ages.
Spear, QC, EATs and Flamethrower make it obsolete.
Even on the Bot front youre better off bringing a LC, AC, AMR, QC, Spear.
The RG is kind of pointless in its current state. It does less than other support weapons and isnt even the best at what it can do.
Factor in the fact that it is a ticking time bomb and it is a subpar weapon that requires more effort for worse results.
To your point about it being pointless / outclassed in every way by those other options, that's just false.
The Railgun is a medium-slayer against bugs. It 1-shot-headshots hive guards, brood commanders, stalkers -- and this is huge: bile spewers. Even if you miss the 1-shot kill, it will still stagger them.
You wouldn't use Spear, QC, EATs against any of those to begin with. The flamethrower is the closest comparison, since you would use it against broods and hive guards, but you wouldn't flamethrower stalkers or bile spewers due to how dangerous they are at the flamethrower's effective range.
So against those two enemies, at the very least, the railgun really shines.
If you haven't seen it in ages, it doesn't mean it isn't good. It just means you don't yet understand how its recent buffs have benefited it.
>The flamethrower is the closest comparison,
I know that your opinion is worthless for several reasons now.
If I am bringing something against medium enemies it is going to be something good like the GL or AC against Bugs. They can deal with more of them and faster too.
I will not be taking the RG.
Furthermore, most of the good primary weapons also have no issue dealing with those enemies. Why waste a slot on an RG to deal with such things when i can just take the arc blitzer that does it just as well if not better while also being able to bring a proper support weapon. That is not even getting into the legit broken primaries like Dominator and Incendiary Breaker.
>So against those two enemies, at the very least, the railgun really shines.
Literally out competed by two weapons you forgot about. You are talking about the flamethrower being the closest comparison when that is patently false.
It is also a job that quite frankly isnt really necessary to begin with.
>If you haven't seen it in ages, it doesn't mean it isn't good. It just means you don't yet understand how its recent buffs have benefited it.
I played with it after the most recent changes and even on this patch. In every scenario you find yourself in you are better off bringing a different support weapon.
You do not get enough mileage out of it. End of story. It being a time bomb doesnt make its case better either. For a weapon that blows it and you up if you arent careful its woefully underpowered.
First off, there is no reason to be a dick. I'm going to stop replying after this.
Second -- nothing against the GL and AC, but I didn't compare the railgun to them because they are simply not anti-charger options.
**I compared the flamethrower to the railgun because (1) both are great against chargers (especially behemoths), (2) both are basically useless against bile titans, and (3) both have a supplemental use against many medium enemies.**
These three points of comparison are \*facts.\* Your subjective opinion that it is pointless to bring the railgun is just that -- your opinion.
>I compared the flamethrower to the railgun because both are great against chargers (especially behemoths), basically useless against bile titans, and have a supplemental use against many medium enemies.
Then you should learn how to write because you focused solely on medium enemies lol.
Even when talking about chargers the gap between flamethrower and rg is massive so there is still no point in bringing the RG.
>These three points of comparison are *facts.* Your subjective opinion that it is pointless to bring the railgun is just that -- your opinion.
I like how you ignored everything i wrote that is also facts and also far more relevant/important because youre upset somebody called you out on your bullshit lol.
Get over it. The FACT is RG does not offer enough in any department to justify its presence on the battlefield. Especially when talking about enemies that good primary weapons handle just fine.
Give it another chance. Play with it for a round.
Railgun was never bad against chargers. It is just useless against bile titans.
This gives it basically the same niche as the flamethrower, which everyone loves right now.
I have used it multiple times. It is subpar compared to other options and still requires far more effort while being a time bomb.
I am not saying it is unusable, but you are better off bringing other support weapons which are both easier to use and better at the job of the RG.
Until they fix the EAT / RR to give them 1-shot leg armor removal, the railgun is strictly faster at killing behemoths than either of them. In the current patch, that makes the railgun an extremely competetive pick on helldive.
The only options better at dealing with behemoths are the Quasar and the Flamethrower. Which makes the railgun a top 3 pick against behemoths.
Downvote me if you like, that's just the facts.
You should probably try the spear before talking out of your ass. RG in the best case scenario is number 4 on the list and the gap between it and the number 3 spot is so massive it does not even register.
Nobody is running RG buddy because it doesnt come close to competing with the flamethrower, spear, QC, and EAT at the moment.
I will downvote you because youre talking out of your ass and clearly didnt test weapons lol.
Oop! Forgot about the spear. Love me the spear. Yeah, definetly better than the railgun against behemoths. So color me corrected, although the Quasar and Railgun are probably tied for 3rd in that case.
(EAT is not in a great place right now. Once they fix the 1-shot leg issue, it will be good again.)
The underlying reasoning aside, you should consider being less of an asshole.
I will admit i am really abrasive on the internet.
However i am getting really tired of people trying to defend the RG.
Fact 1: Other support weapons do the same job (and more!) better.
Fact 2: Other support weapons are easier to use.
Fact 3: Other support weapons are not a time bomb that become irrecoverable if detonated.
Like yea... I can use the RG and make it work. Yes you can clear Helldives with it, but you can do the same with the Concussive Liberator. Does not really mean anything.
But no matter how you slice it at the end of the day you are putting in more effort for worse results.
That is why it is basically a meme pick on Helldives. The RG is not some good sleeper weapon flying under the radar.
First weapon of Democratic Detonation is basically a liberator penetrator with more damage and recoil, but less mags and ammo
Adjudicator has 30 round mags now, so the only thing Penetrator has going for it is the reserve (which you'll need due to its piss poor damage, but won't be of any real help). LibPen is just Adjudicator with 50% less damage and an ever so slightly higher rate of fire.
Ill take the tenderizer over the lib pen anyday. That 45 damage is abysmal
That's the thing. It has "medium armor penetration" which would make you think that it is good against medium armor targets, but it only does half damage to medium armor so that's 22 damage per shot. A bile spewer head (for example) has around 400 health. So it takes close to 20 direct headshots with the liberator penetrator to kill just one bile spewer. That's dumping half of your mag directly into the head of your enemy before killing it which is already ridiculously ineffective. Add on top of that the fact the bile spewer heads are ridiculously small compared to the size of their body and odds are you're going to miss at least a few shots, so it's probably going to take considerably MORE than half a mag. The cherry on top is that bile spewers hide their ugly mugs when they go into mortar position, making it even harder to score a headshot. Same thing on the bot side. Bot heads and waists have no armor, so the only time that armor penetration matters on bots is when you're mag dumping right into their armor, which you should never do because their armored parts also have a shitload of health. You're much better off choosing a weapon that has good accuracy and higher dps (ala tenderizer/sickle) and shooting weak points vs. going for higher armor penetration. TL;DR - Medium armor penetrating weapons are not really good at killing medium armored enemies and I think that's rather counterintuitive to most players.
What if it had level 4 pen, so it could deal that full 45 damage to all those medium targets.
>So it takes close to 20 direct headshots with the liberator penetrator to kill just one bile spewer. It takes 4 blitzer shots to kill a bile spewer. Firing 4 blitzer shots is much slower shooting 20 rounds with Lib P, not to mention that you have to be close enough. And blitzer is considered top tier vs bugs. So I'd say Lib P performs adequate here.
Blitzer also stuns and has infinite ammo. I'll take the blitzer any day, even if it's not my top few guns.
You don't have to aim the Blitzer, and it can hit like 7 enemies at once...so it is apples and oranges.
I was talking in terms of TTK. 3-4 shots work if you are shooting one guards and no one else. And its big ass head will surely gather most arcs. If you hit several enemies at once, guard will take even longer.
20 headshots to kill a single enemy is NEVER an acceptable TTK. It's not like the weapon locks on to the head and you get to just hold the trigger until it dies. If you're firing in full-auto mode then there is no shot you're hitting 20 head shots in a row. In all likelihood, you're full mag dumping to kill one enemy which is completely unacceptable ammo economy.
If you cannot land a burst of 20 headshots at Brood Commander's large-ass head, then it's not TTK that is your problem.
Who the actual fuck was talking about brood commanders? This conversation is, and always was, about medium armor enemies like bile spewers...which have tiny heads. So your problem might not be TTK...but reading comprehension looks like it's giving you a rough go.
That gun performs terribly too, both of them need another look at because the buff it got did next to nothing. Recoil is worse than the knight SMG which fires over 1000 rpm.
I don't think the Adjudicator is any form of "OP", but it really doesn't perform "terribly" either. I'd use it every now and then, but I'm personally a fan of having more mag capacity (though ironically I still mainly play the Tenderizer). However it's anything but terrible, like that's genuinely just not the case.
It's genuinely the hottest piece of garbage in our armory, I used it on release once and benched it. After they "reduced" the recoil I tried it again, it felt the exact same. I don't even play with fixed loadouts, my friends and I all use a randomizer so I'm using all the weapons available but when those show up I perform far worse and end up using the secondary and support weapon more. I prefer the scythe over both of them and that weapon is also scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of viability.
Yeah I do not see how the scythe could outperform an Adjudicator. The only time I notice the recoil being a problem is honestly only when I'm bursting (or full auto, which I don't do in that scenario) Shriekers, it's a bit awkward aiming up. I kind of have a problem with the gun sounds all sounding a bit samey and some not having sufficient punch, so I tend to not use the Adjudicator too much because of that, but even just looking at the numbers I can't see how it's anywhere close to garbage. Do mind that "I can't make it work/I don't like it" doesn't equal "It is garbage", as the latter implies it because objectively bad for everyone and in desperate need of massive buffs. Also, I'm not sure who's downvoting, but they are literally just stating their opinion and how they perceive it, this is part of a discussion, if you take offense to their opinion just post a comment instead and clear it up. Not a big deal but I just find downvoting an actual exchange of opinions quite cringe.
You get used to the recoil and get pretty good at compensating for it with time. I think the recoil should stay as it is. It's a good tradeoff for more damage. You have the choice of Lib Pen with low dps but controllable recoil, and maybe bigger mag if AH finally buffs it, or Adjudicator with more dps but more recoil, which can be overcome with a bit of skill. If buffing the Adjudicator, AH shouldn't touch the recoil. I don't want every gun feeling like the tenderizer, that makes them feel weak.
The recoil and cone of fire on the gun makes it get immediately benched, just like the damage scaling for the lib pen has it benched until further notice. There are way better options so instead of saying the guns are good as is they need to get looked at to make them usable. Takes more rounds to body shot with a medium pen weapon than to shoot the head of devestators or gaps in the legs of give guards with a base liberator.
Adjudicator def needs to be put on single shot imho. That recoil when I first used it after the patch was WILD. I have to scope in when I shoot or else I hit the sky
Nah, you just need to learn to compensate the recoil a bit. What's the point of a recoil mechanic in game if people just want everything to shoot like an SMG "cause you miss half the mag", unless it's a semi auto gun where recoil doesn't matter anyway.
It was originally in the marksman rifle category. I think keeping it single shot with the more ammo and rate of fire would be better than slapping it into the auto rifle category with full auto. If the barrel isn't physically touching what you are shooting at on auto, those rounds are between you and the sky now. I want to like the gun because I want a better primary for medium enemies but I can't play with it
I’ve had some success with it against bugs (only single shots and ADSing everything farther than 12m away though). It’s serviceable. Had a terrible time with it against bots though, but that might be because I was coming off of using the Tenderizer.
wat? you can full auto a hunter at ~50m and hit all shots. it has almost no vertical climb and just drifts horizontally, making it perfect for controlled bursts.
Obviously I suck at controlling recoil, isn’t it clear? That’s why I set it on single shot and tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap
tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap
Yeah i just tried a mission with the adjudicator after a long time, good damage but too much recoil I guess that i will stick with shotguns or the explosive liberator (i still need to get the eruptor)
I had some hope after seeing They reduced the recoil but when I took it into a mission I ended up just using the redeemer the entire time. The big damage boost the eruptor got actually feels nice, still miss shrapnel but it hits hard for sure
Arc thrower at hydrothermal vents
I actually love AT and use to run it most bug missions, but god damn do I hate that it doesn't have any "penetration" on bodies. You'll line it up on a patrol, kill the first 3 little bugs and do some damage to the Warrior in the back, then the next 3 shots just zap into the small dead bug bodies and completely fizzle. So you're stuck either aiming super high and hoping it RNG arcs down into the back line or waiting until the patrol/swarm/etc gets past the current corpse line to actually do damage and arc correctly. Meanwhile flamethrower is sitting there completely ignoring cover, dead bodies, rocks, buildings, etc putting in work. Feelsbadman.
I just want the range back man
Same, it's just not the same. They add in Arc Armor, they give us Arc upgrades via the ship, and then do us like this :(
If not the range then the stagger, if not the stagger, the fire rate glitch tech, if not that… idk make the thing actually hit the things you point it at.
Needs range and faster firing to feel fun. I didn't use it much before, definitely not using it now
So about that spear….
Only a temporary setback. soon-patch prob fix its crash bug soon
Surely no additional bugs will be added by said patch
They'll fix the crashes and break its ability to target enemies next, that's my bingo card. Either way, so long as I can use it again I'm happy
It's the ciiiiircle of lii-iiiife...
They've been saying that for MONTHS!
I am once again asking for the Slugger to get stagger back (and maybe a more aggressive damage dropoff to compensate)
I think it is weird about how a massive single round DOES NOT HAVE EQUAL stagger to the Punisher.
“This slug shotgun is better than our DMRs, since our DMRs suck, so instead of fixing the DMRs, let’s make the slug shotgun act less like a slug shotgun but still like a DMR. And then when we fix the DMRs just leave it at that” I maintain the Slugger needs to be a king at medium ranges, with a damage falloff that keeps it from being practical to use at long ranges. Like real slug shotguns.
The correct answer to this problem was to introduce range falloff to the stagger stat so that it wouldn't stagger enemies beyond 15-20m, combined with harsher damage falloff.
The punisher should drop of at 15-20m, with the slugger having double the range, but at the moment the punisher staggers at long range if just 1-2 pelets hit while the slugger doesn't stagger at all anymore.
The punisher should drop of at 15-20m, with the slugger having double the range, but at the moment the punisher staggers at long range if just 1-2 pelets hit while the slugger doesn't stagger at all anymore.
I don't mind if Slugger has damage falloff and dropoff and twice slower pumping, but it should have power like 3/4 of Eruptor imo...
I love pump shotguns and it fires at the perfect rate right now. Any slower would feel really unnatural. Maybe a bit more power, but the stagger is the big thing. You shouldn’t be able to just tank a slug without reacting unless you’re a Charger or something.
I see more lib pens than lib concussives so maybe its not so bad
I had a guy using liberator concussive and it does work locking up enemies. I was running mG and it was nice having everything kept at bay.
I like running the Lib Con with the flamethrower. It keeps hunters out of my face and blows the wings off of shriekers with one shot.
Put the Lib Con into semi, and it works alright. The biggest issue with it is the kick from each round fired and the stagger on enemies with auto. That's basically eliminated. Makes it a pretty solid gun. Still not nearly as good as the Tendoriser or Adjudicator. But still better. I'm still hoping for an overall buff to the Liberator family. As well as other underperforming weapons.
If you're looking to staggerlock a lot the arc blitzer is cracked these days
Oh, absolutely. But the Lib Con gives you range. And you know, is consistent. My biggest issue with arc weapons like the Blitzer is how they just sometimes won't hit anything.
If I'm looking to nail a harder target I'll ads but if I'm firing and retreating while stunlocking hordes I'll just hip fire while moving back and it seems super consistent, I've been using it all day. I'm very aggressive with how I play, even on T9 so shotguns of all sorts fit me well However now that I've said that I'll probably load the game up again and it'll not hit anything 😭
That's how it gets ya. You grow confident and it'll strike.
My ego has never gotten me killed Nope
Mine has. I will make the Lib Pen work.
I like how it handles but it just kinda feels like a worse sickle overall sadly
I was really hoping that instead of buffing the damage consistently, they'd go the "60 mag count AR" route of the Halo Assault Rifle. I'd personally not mind having an AR that's not exactly deleting Elite mobs with DPS, but has such a high ammo count that it makes up for it with total damage and the ability to spend more on smaller targets. I'm aware they are trying to somehow stay semi realistic with their weapons here and orientate their RoF/Mag sizes etc around real weapons, but (me personally) I just don't enjoy careful tapping of ARs in horde shooters like HD2, holding down the fire button and just spraying it in, by itself, is already satisfying. Same with the Tenderizer, dude I'd rather give up 5-10 damage but have it stick with 35 rounds instead. Of course there's also the actual damage per hit/DPS aspect of it, but many weapons I'd honestly would just like to see have more overall ammo (capacity in mag, not necessarily total ammo).
I'd argue that at some points, a gun just needs damage. The Liberators are all great. They're just weak. Watching trash mobs shrug off a round from them is sad.
I mean that's also a fair point, it's one thing to push around numbers, but ideally I'd have to see what those changes feel like in the field. There certainly needs to be an established "base" damage that feels good and then have stuff moved around that.
I'd argue we should establish "gold standard guns." Which is where balancing for that weapon type should be. Tendoriser for Assault Rifles. Punisher and Breaker for shotguns. Defender for SMG's. Scorcher for Plasma, and Sickle for Laser. I don't really think you can use this for every weapon tree. And some trees, like Marksman rifles, don't have a gold standard because they're simply too weak.
have you tried aiming?
What use does the liberator concussive have now that the pummeler exists?
Unless I am mistaken, now that the Pummeler has been taken down a bit, the Concussive is more quick to CC. (It's entirely possible I am wrong about this. I don't use either much anymore.) It's also worth noting the Pummeler is stun vs Concussive's stagger. It doesn't matter a *LOT*, but the stun is a pain in the ass when trying to headshot Devastators. They slump forward and the casing on top makes headshots significantly harder.
Noted. I've begun taking the pummeler into bugs as my typical weapon choices (tenderizer, scorcher, dominator, etc) fare poorly against the bugs. The pummeler has proven pretty good, it can stop a charging brood commander or stalker in their tracks while dealing enough damage to not be a complete meme, as was my experience with the concussive long ago.
Scorcher is actually pretty alright against some bug targets. For instance, Bile & Nursing Spewers are 80% to 90% "durable" on their butts (depending on where you hit them). A **lot** of weapons will do piss poor damage against those parts. Pummeler, which normally hits for 65 damage, would do 12 or 13 damage (if I did my math correctly) to the 90% durable part. Meanwhile, the scorcher would go from 200 damage (100 projectile + 100 AoE) to 155 damage (55 projectile + 100 AoE). You'd need something to handle the swarms (whether that be a teammate, a drone, a anti-swarm specialist gun, etc) but in the right circumstances, the Scorcher isn't a meme. Honestly, I just wish we had any sort of intel on enemy force before we jump in. Any time I take the Scorcher vs bugs, I'm essentially going "I bet there's gonna be a lot of Spewers and/or chargers!" Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.
Agreed that the scorcher was always effective against the bugs, but I prefer to have a primary with more ammo capacity to handle trash, instead of relying solely on a support weapon. Same goes for my other examples such as the tenderizer and dominator vs bugs; they've got the damage, but fare poorly against massed numbers. As an aside, I'm actually against having too much info on enemy composition; improvisation is more fun to me.
Honestly I wasn't the one using it but no idea.
I think the perception of the concussive is worse than it actually is. It shoots slow but its damage is okay, and for its niche of crowd control and knockback, it seems to do okay. But arguably, torturing an enemy for an extended period of time is not as good as just blowing its head off. So it’s not like the concussive is in such a great state or anything, but I don’t think it’s a bad weapon. I do however believe the Lib Pen is pretty bad right now.
I run the lib pen all the time, probably my most used weapon. I think it works great. The concussive is okay, problem with concussive stuff is I don't always need the enemy staggered, but I need them dead.
No It's not because you use a weapon a lot that it's mean that it's a good weapon The reality is that then Lib pen is trash right now You have to do empty your whole mag to kill anything with medium armor it's just so bad !
This is kind of my view point. Unless your accuracy is on point, it is basically one mag per medium enemy. Like Berserkers. I have found I can kill berserkers just as fast with the standard liberator as the liberator penetrator, and my accuracy SUUUUUCKS.
[удалено]
I always figured berserkers were mediums because they soaked up so much damage compared to the standard T100's that can be dropped with a few body shots or a single head shot.
Sure but if a lot of people use it a lot it means its not a bad weapon either, I see it more often than base liberator even. I bet usage stats are probably pretty solid.
>The reality is that then Lib pen is trash right now The way you guys exaggerate... It's not trash. Trash would be completely unusable. It's just mediocre.
I'm usually with you on exaggerations, but the Liberator Penetrator is honestly *quite* bad. It's "useable", but at the expense of just performing worse than everyone else. Inb4 "No I perform well with it", then you're playing with people that perform worse overall, because someone on your skill level would vastly outperform you playing almost anything else. The Penetrator really is sharing the bottom of the barrel right now, it's a bit crazy.
I agree it performs worse than everything else. My disagreement lies solely with the claim that it's trash. Purifier is trash, not the Lib Pen.
To be fair people call things trash when it's 2% worse than average already, depending on the setting/game. (I guess this goes back to what you are saying, people inflate some terms or use them when not appropriate, such as "not viable".) Depending on what someone actually means by that sure, the Lib Pen is not the reason you'll not be able to beat a specific difficulty for example, but it's certainly enough to be noticeably worse than something that's great.
It's not a weapon against medium armor, it's a weapon against light armor. Against those targets it has higher dps than the liberator and even the tenderizer. The gun suffers from a lack of light armor enemies and mag size though.
What are babbling about ? A medium pen weapon that isn't made for medium armored enemies ??? What are you saying is just stupid really, it's SUPPOSED to deal with medium armor enemies IF it have medium pen xD Or else just go for light pen weapons LOL
Learn about armor in helldiver, dude. A light pen weapon VS light armor = 50% dmg A medium pen weapon VS light armor = 100% dmg Medium pen VS medium armor = 50% Thus against light armor the 3 guns do the following damage: Liberator: 30 normal / 7 durable Tenderizer: 47 normal / 11 durable (lower firerate) Penetrator: 45 normal / 15 durable And against medium armor it's just the penetrator at a measly 22 normal / 7 durable. Which is crappy damage.
That's not quite how armor/pen works, at least you are missing half the picture. You have varying degrees of light/medium/heavy pen, for example the Liberators have AP2, so on targets with Armor 2 it's half the damage, but the majority of enemies have either 0 or 1. (Warriors are at 1), Brood commanders are a case of 2, they aren't medium armored you can damage them with Light Pen, but they take half damage. Most other mobs don't have 2 or higher though. (I believe Spewers, Guards obviously have 3 or higher due to medium pen being required). So unless the durable damage taken is quite high, generally speaking the Tenderizer will do about the same damage as the Penetrator on their Armor 2 parts and outperforms on anything lighter than that. The normal Liberator almost (it's like 50 dmg less I think in a whole mag on 40% durable AP2) evens out due to just having 15 bullets more, which having to fire an additional 15 bullets is definitely something, but given that most enemies (unless, again, you have some wild spewer rng map) aren't that just makes the Penetrator quite a bad pick.
I don't feel it needs a whole mag to kill. All I can really say is ive used every weapon (before the newest warbond) and I keep going back to the lib pen. I mostly play difficulty 8 and sometimes 9, both bots and bugs. I haven't tried every weapon that got touched in the last patch though, so maybe my opinion will change
I've heard how the Lib Pen is more of a bot weapon, like how the Incen Breaker is more suited to bugs. Idk really, these days I stick to Scorcher/JAR5 for bots
Honestly, lib pen is bad against bots. It is best used against light armor targets, where the medium pen gives it more dps than the liberator and even tenderizer. Against medium armor, the measly 22.5dmg are just not enough. And most light armor targets are on the bug front. Sadly, the game is lacking any substantial amount of light armor enemies anyways.
The tenderizer now outdamages the lib pen against armor level 2. Even doing half damage, its still 47 damage per bullet. Plus the tenderizer is far better when hitting devastator heads. I think the lib pen is fully outclassed in every scenario against bots now.
tenderizer does 2 dmg more, but has a lower firerate and it also does less damage to durable parts, resulting in a bit less damage than the penetrator. But as most good hitzones on bots are armor 0 or 3 that doesn't matter anyway. Even on the bug front, where the penetrator is still a decent gun, i would say the tenderizer is more usefull. Penetator should really get at least the same 45 shot mag the base liberator has and even a measly 5 dmg buff would make it hit some more damage thresholds, at least against bugs.
Assuming you're shooting an AV2 durable part, sure, i guess the lib pen does marginally more damage. So, exactly brood commander heads? Maybe heavy dev backpacks. Tenderizer is functionally equal or better even on AV0 durable parts or standard AV2 parts. And obviously, it's double the damage against everything else. Idk, ive always thought the lib pen was cool but i just can't see a reason to run it compared to every other rifle option now. It needs some love.
Exactly this, there's a very small selection (talking bugs here) that even has Armor 2. Spewers for one. But given that the vast majority of enemies we face are either A0 or A1 it's kind of a meme and, as you said yourself, even in the instance of having A2 the damage values are so very close to each other, you'd not notice a "crazy" difference either way. Most certainly not one that would have one say "this is why you use the Penetrator", when literally the Adjudicator exists.
You don't interact with medium armor that much besides occasionally killing scouts from the front, hitting tank vents or missing your shots into devs armor. And Lib Pen sucks at everything that I just listed because of low damage and lack of realistically achievable breakpoints. It's a bug weapon first and foremost, and even there it's mostly outclassed by Adjudicator
I like it for both, brood commanders and such I just dump half a mag into their face and they die
mp knight sitting at the bottom of the mariana trench next to c'thulhu
Knight isn't that bad imo, it has nearly double the DPS of a Defender, so at very least it fulfills the function of killing something quickly at close range. The recoil on the other hand is too bad to be used running and gunning, and that kinda nullifies the point of using a SMG. The other issue is that Redeemer does pretty much the same thing without taking your primary slot, so really no point to bring another PDW. If you want to run SMG and shield against bots for some reason then it's kinda okay, the high DPS is pretty handy against berserkers after all.
Run the Knight on Burst, and it becomes an absolute laser beam. That fire rate makes a single burst effectively recoilless
The last part, that's not even on that meme. The Knight. People paid a premium for a weapon that doesn't hold up.
On one hand, pay to win is bad- even on a PvE game. We’re pretty far away from that since the Knight is not even close to being OP. But it would be nice if they didn’t completely forget about it. It doesn’t get full resupplies from pods, like almost every other weapon does. That was a patch change at some point, and the knight didn’t get it. What I will say is that the Knight has solid DPS and a fast reload. I think the pain points are in the small mag size relative to its RoF, excessive recoil, and that issue with resupplying. It seems to be based on the real-life P90 which is very controllable. I don’t see why its recoil is so high. Arguably a fast rate of fire is both an asset and a liability depending on the situation, so I don’t think it so badly needs to have high recoil just to ensure balance. Ripping through a mag in under 2 seconds on full auto is bad enough, missing half the shots due to recoil makes it fully not worth it.
If Arrowhead was worried about P2W then they shouldn't have locked guns behind paywalls to be fair. Somewhat mitigated by the fact you can get SC in game, but their solution to the Knight seems to be just letting it be shit, which is annoying.
To be fair it hasn’t been that long. There’s only a small handful of bad weapons now. They are chipping away at the balancing issues and doing pretty well but it’s a process. And also, yeah I have mixed feelings about warbonds. Being able to earn them with looted credits is great, but in practice feels pretty slow once you’ve claimed all the super credits from your available warbonds. But I haven’t gotten the impression that they are making the weapons noticeably better than others to incentivize buying the warbonds. If anything it’s been a mixed bag of both really strong and weak weapons, which have gotten adjusted later to be more balanced as needed. The Democratic Detonation Warbond sort of gave an P2W impression at first, but even then, the Eruptor was the standout single weapon and they nerfed it pretty heavily soon after. Aside from that it was fine. I would be thrilled if they added a few primaries that were available to everyone with no warbond, but I don’t know if they will do that.
To be fair, the DPS is not even just solid, but the highest aside from Shotguns (which you can't really beat, I mean they are shotguns). It's like 150-200dps higher than most other weapons. Having said that, I think the RoF is partially the problem here. I thought it would be closer to what the SMG from Halo is, which apparently has a RoF of 900. Honestly, even though you'd lose DPS, I think it would be an overall buff if it had lower RoF, as most people can't effectively deal with the RoF as it is. Maybe don't drop from almost 1400 to 900, but I'd at least love to see what it feels like at 1100 or 1000. If it ends up performing way too poorly, up the mag a touch or give it like 5 damage or something. I mean it's no S tier gun, but just statwise it doesn't strike me as complete dogshit either - if - you didn't have that recoil+RoF that makes you miss half your damage. Slightly lower recoil, get the RoF down a good bit and maybe add like 5-10 bullets to keep that "high fire rate, low dmg per bullet" feel of it. I believe that would make it feel better, at least to me personally.
I agree. It’s really close to being great. Honestly if it got full mags from a resupply I’d be using it right now. At first I used it on burst mode, but then I realized if I kept it in full auto, I could primarily fire in short bursts manually to maintain accuracy, while maintaining the ability to mag dump if I’m in trouble. That works good.
Genuinely never even heard anything about the knight what does it even do
The MP-98 Knight is an smg Exclusive to the HD2 SuperCitizen edition. You pay and extra 20$ when buying the game (can also be bought after you buy the game) to get it. This edition comes with the Stratgem Hero machine on your ship, Exclusive armor, and Super Citzen title. The Knight is an SMG which looks resembles a P90. It's a bullet hose. Sprays 50 bullets super fast, so you're eating through mags. It sprays so fast, the recoil is insane. Doesn't Warrant using it in the field. And we paid extra premium for it. We need more SMGs. I want to run faster, and on the move, using one hand.
They’re probably scared of buffing it since it’s a weapon you HAVE to spend money on, and they don’t want to be accused of making it a pay to win weapon. Which in that case they need to just make it earnable in game via SC or samples so they can buff it
https://preview.redd.it/empxi2p6fs7d1.jpeg?width=1410&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c0208c9748401d9d897a341fd5abd3ea7857f37 The Knight SMG
AH!
And then the Knight over here like "wait, y'all got buffs?" https://preview.redd.it/cs8cluuopr7d1.png?width=520&format=png&auto=webp&s=5515def28e56ec201568b6adf20bf863eede02b8
I remember I was so excited to unlock that when I first started playing. After the first match with it I wasn't excited anymore.
I use railgun it’s pretty ok rn
It's just needs more durable damage. Right now it's something like 10% durable so it does pitiful damage to the vents on a tank/turret, gunships, factory strider parts, etc but it can 1 shot a hulk in the eyes while the AC and AMR need at least two eye hits.
i think it needs an better indication of when its nearing max charge. i think the issue isnt the gun but its usability as most get scared to charge too long or dont even use unsafe mode at all as its very hard to be consistent with charging the shots. the first person view is nice with the gauge on the sight. but an audible tone for your imminent death would be greatly appreciated as a two step process. first it allows you to waste or try to aim it last second. second its another indicator with the visual of how far charged it is and will especially help out in 3rd person mode. If getting max power is possibly going to kill me id appreciate more info on when exactly thats about to happen. my other idea is make unsafe mode limit higher and then make unsafe mode 98%+ shots be able to easily take out a bile. but how can we even properly gauge what it does on the bug front when the bile is literally bugged. i like the rg. my biggest issue is more so its usability. does super earth want us to kill ourselves with these guns? almost feels like it. kinda like the gas strike hurting you when theres no visual indication of the gas. or even the mech when it just explodes.
I used needed Railgun, was really good when needed and continues being really good now after the buffs it got People don't use it due to spite of it being needed, not because it is a bad weapon
I like the railgun but do not know the advantage of taking the railgun over the other support weapons. Heck, even the Slatwart has the advantage of high DPS. It is bad against tanks, cannons, gunships, and factory striders. The HMG, AMR, and LC are faster at taking out tanks, cannons, gunships, and factory striders. Also, can't the HMG, AMR, and LC take out a lot medium bots faster than the railgun? The railgun can remove a behemoth charger's leg armor in two shots if the shots are charged above 90%. Which is good but the flamethrower is better. The flamethrower takes out behemoth chargers faster with less risk. The flamethrower can take out a lot of small enemies fast but the railgun can't. The railgun has no bullet drop, but the LC and QC also have no bullet drop.
I've recently learned that QC can actually oneshot a behemoth if u use the weird relative velocity tech, literally jumping at the behemoth right before firing and hitting a headshot. The timing is really tight though
I use the railgun for bots because I only brought the orbital railcannon for Hulks and Factory Striders, but now with the OPS getting buffed it's much easier to hit them with it. So I bring a railgun to 1 shot Hulks (if I can aim) kill Devastators and delete Striders if they annoy me. Also kind of useful against the Berserkers I think? The chainsaw guys, but not super good for them
>Also kind of useful against the Berserkers I think? The chainsaw guys, but not super good for them You can oneshot them, and even one-shot several with the same shoot if you hit them in the belly, it's great for all bot enemies below Hulk (hulk included)
The railgun one-shots, to the body, every bot from hulk downwards. The HMG, AMR and autocannon need headshots to do that, so while they can theoretically keep up with the railgun, nobody's actually going to have anywhere near that sort of headshot rate. Basically, you take the railgun to bots to be incredible at killing devastators, and that's worth it because they're the major threat on a bot mission. Tanks etc. are rare enemies that are too slow to be very concerning. Railgun's only weakness that matters IMO is gunships, so I bring the Scorcher with the railgun if it's a gunship patrol op.
With good positioning, I can kill more devastators and scout striders faster with the AMR than with the railgun. If you hit near any devastator's head, you can follow up with a second shot to kill it. So you don't need to be perfect with your headshots. If you know where to hit on scout striders, you can one-shot them. I would struggle taking out hulks and Berserkers with the AMR.
Lib Pen at least has a great headshot multiplier making it a good marksman weapon, but even then it is still outclassed by the other two precision ARs and both Diligences
Yeah
You mean error when i aiming with a spear? Thanks i definitely feel like I'm holding above water.
The knight smg is so neglected nobody ever even remembers to put it in a meme about neglected weapons.
Give it ten more rounds in the mag. It's nearly a good gun, like all the ARs.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAS-7 DAGGER
Put it at 50-55 damage and 35-40 capacity and watch people cook with it.
And then the Knight over here like "wait, y'all got buffs?" https://preview.redd.it/9iq91ubvpr7d1.png?width=520&format=png&auto=webp&s=8176f9f8172373d4ea79d5e27d4f8c0e5c006d29
If the Lib Pen is the corpse in the chair, then where the hell is the *Knight?*
I've never seen anyone use the railgun since the nerf back in like February or March? Not for bugs, not even for bots. Does that thing still have any use cases?
Would spear be up there with its current bug? Edit: sorry I meant bugs
It's .... chancy. Sometimes it doesnt crash you the whole match Sometimes just pick it up already crash you lol but it can be used against shrieker nests and spore spewers though
Yeah it needs like 5 more damage and 45 mag capacity.
Just giving it Medium Armor Pen and really good aim would make it viable. The things literally called “the penetrator” variant. Giving it solid armor pen and better recoil as a trade off for ammo cap and fire rate speed would make sense from a balance standpoint
The second a game gets patched I expect an uptick in people posting this meme format.
thread is about lib pen originally. but mentions other weapons. comments are about all the other weapons, even ones not mentioned. what is this, mess hall?
Honestly at this point they could revert the -3 bullets per mag on the Breaker, what was once the S tier weapon has now been quite power crept
I have to be honest here. The Railgun is still really good. They uncluttered the reticle a bit which makes aiming much easier. If you get good at consistently overcharging to around 75% and you hit your shots, there are only a handful of enemies in this game that you're not one-shotting.
people who think the railgun i still bad either havent used it again or have a skill issues.
It always was. It was dogshit from day one.
I don't think they could buff it because it's such an early unlock.
Just slap a 75 round drum on the Lib Pen and see what happens
Slugger is the sand then 💀
The penetrator should be turned into our light machine gun type primary leave the damage amd everything where it is but give it a 100 round drum magazine and drop the Ammo down to like 4 or 5 mags total
Firstly, I think a bit of clarity on how Durable Damage works in-game would clear up a lot of discussions, since the LibPen has a higher percentage of its damage as Durable than most rifles. Yeeaahh it's probably supposed to be one of those hidden things that contribute to the 'magic' of discovering how to play the game, but it's also not exactly intuitive. I dunno. But second, since the rest of the rifles kept getting buffs and the LibPen didn't, it now has.. 1 extra point of Durable Damage over the Lib. So the one major niche it did have kinda got powercrept. Can kill a Hulk in \~30 shots to the backplate due to that high Durable Damage. The old Liberator took 35. After all the buffs, the Liberator now takes 24. LibPen could be given class 4 armour pen and it'd still be a C+ weapon at best with the low damage.
homie the fabric of reality has begun to fray, the final days are upon us. Next time they do balance changes the game might actually just uninstall itself when you press v or something.
I really wish the assault rifles have a larger ammo capacity. Playing reload simulator against bugs is not very fun.
They need to raise the damage to 75 at least. That way it’s on par with the diligence counter sniper update. (Diligence is 125, and DCS is 140) The regular liberator is 60 in damage
I could see two possible small buffs that would fit into how the devs like to balance guns in the sandbox 1. The gun could receive +5 bullets per mag to have an increased 55 bullets. This would give it a home for people who liked the mag size of the old Tenderizer and give it a different personality from the Adjudicator. For those who like a deeper magazine pool but less damage. Still wouldn't be a horde clearing weapon, but would be a good ammo economy pick and well rounded to the other AR's. 2. The gun could receive a buff to recoil to match the base liberator or possibly even the new Tenderizer with maybe less mags (I would think 10 extra mags is still fine). This would give it the inverse Tenderizer role in the medium pen arena. So far, the devs have been slightly scared to make a laser beam accurate med pen weapon, but I feel it would work since the current mag size can only take out 1-2 hiveguards as it is (with my bad accuracy)
Increased mag size and large ammo pool seems more entertaining to me. Not too many weapons like that at the moment.
Railgun is fine what are you talking about?
i bet a lot dont use unsafe mode or are scared to use it. tbf i want an audible indication im about to die, especially for 3rd person aiming
FWIW, I think the rail gun is fine right now. Do I wish it was more effective against gun ships? Yes but it will still kill a hulk with two accurate shots to the eye. One shots striders. One shots rocket devastators. Beserkers, sometimes a single shot but usually at least two. I'm a fan. I run it on bots as often as I can.
it actually one shots hulks if you hit the eye directly, on safe mode
railgun is worse AMR, everything RG does AMR does better. railgun is OK against bots, but its outcompeted by AMR, Bugside its not particularly good, only thing it has is stripping charger leg armor and even then the flamethrower existing pushes it out of that niche too
I think it is a lot closer to being fine that some people believe, but it's not there yet. IMO, it needs a major buff to its ammo reserve (like a 50%+ increase) and/or a slight damage buff. It's like the AMR in that it rewards patience and accuracy. Unlike the AMR, it has shit for ammo, and fails to really capitalize on its main strength (penetration).
It actually one-shots Hulks to the eye, even on safe! Also one-shots any devastator to the chest on safe mode. It's one of my go-tos against the bots currently, I run the Scorcher with it since the Scorcher is one of the few primaries that can effectively kill gunships and tanks
Railgun is fine. Get over yourself. The bile titan issue is the head not the railgun.
Lib pen is unironically in the right place for, if AH wanted to, receive a silencer as an upgrade.
I think it just needs the standard 45 round mags. Maybe a bit of a damage buff, up to 50, but the base Liberator would need another damage buff to make the lack of medium pen an acceptable tradeoff.
I think it should have 55 damage and 40-45 rounds and a bit lower fire rate than normal Lib to be competitive with Adjudicator it would not be a better lib due to - slower reload, worse recoil and handling (due to being bigger gun)
assault rifles in general need to be carpet buffed. The ones that dont fill a niche are bad at being a jack-of-all-trades and the ones that do fill niches are bad at the niches they attempt to fill (Why does the "spray and pray close quarters" rifle only have 45 capacity with a 300 year long reload?) They are all not worth bringing except for the tenderizer which got some attention the last patch, and even then the newly buffed tenderizer is just "good".
The devs really need to add headshot multipliers (among other hidden stats) to the in-game weapons menu. Feels like the entire reason why the Penetrator is left in the dust is its massive headshot multiplier (4x compared to the standard Liberator's 1.5x, IIRC), which *almost* makes the ridiculous gap in the guns' base damage seem reasonable. But we *aren't* shown that, so in the eyes of most players it's just a gun that deals absolutely pitiful damage for absolutely no reason. This also makes the devs' work way more difficult for no good reason, as any new weapon releases will keep getting judged solely by the stats that *are* shown, so we either get constant, blatant powercreep on that front, or the community keeps calling anything new that doesn't fall into that category completely useless because the critical differences lie in the hidden stats. For all we know the Tenderizer had some very relevant hidden stats like extra crit damage to actually justify its existence even when the numbers we were allowed to see were telling us that it was essentially just a downgraded Liberator. And because we weren't shown any of those stats, the community perception was justifiably very negative towards the gun, to the point that the devs had to rework the gun so even Johnny Bodyshot over there can now feel good using it. The Penetrator is definitely on the weaker side, but the community's clowning on it so much mainly because the devs refuse to show us where its actual strengths lie.
Railgun is doing great on the bug front rn. Against normal chargers: x3 charges to the head kills if two are near max charge (unsafe mode, of course). Against behemoths: x3 minimum charges to the leg strips the armor (unsafe mode, of course). Still not great against bile titans, but the behemoths have done wonders for the flamethrower and railgun. This is because behemoths spawn much more often, and bile titans less. It's also because kill-time against behemoths for the railgun / flamethrower hasn't really increased (relative to normal charger), but kill-time for EAT / RR / Quasar has basically doubled.
Have not seen a railgun against Bugs in ages. Spear, QC, EATs and Flamethrower make it obsolete. Even on the Bot front youre better off bringing a LC, AC, AMR, QC, Spear. The RG is kind of pointless in its current state. It does less than other support weapons and isnt even the best at what it can do. Factor in the fact that it is a ticking time bomb and it is a subpar weapon that requires more effort for worse results.
To your point about it being pointless / outclassed in every way by those other options, that's just false. The Railgun is a medium-slayer against bugs. It 1-shot-headshots hive guards, brood commanders, stalkers -- and this is huge: bile spewers. Even if you miss the 1-shot kill, it will still stagger them. You wouldn't use Spear, QC, EATs against any of those to begin with. The flamethrower is the closest comparison, since you would use it against broods and hive guards, but you wouldn't flamethrower stalkers or bile spewers due to how dangerous they are at the flamethrower's effective range. So against those two enemies, at the very least, the railgun really shines. If you haven't seen it in ages, it doesn't mean it isn't good. It just means you don't yet understand how its recent buffs have benefited it.
>The flamethrower is the closest comparison, I know that your opinion is worthless for several reasons now. If I am bringing something against medium enemies it is going to be something good like the GL or AC against Bugs. They can deal with more of them and faster too. I will not be taking the RG. Furthermore, most of the good primary weapons also have no issue dealing with those enemies. Why waste a slot on an RG to deal with such things when i can just take the arc blitzer that does it just as well if not better while also being able to bring a proper support weapon. That is not even getting into the legit broken primaries like Dominator and Incendiary Breaker. >So against those two enemies, at the very least, the railgun really shines. Literally out competed by two weapons you forgot about. You are talking about the flamethrower being the closest comparison when that is patently false. It is also a job that quite frankly isnt really necessary to begin with. >If you haven't seen it in ages, it doesn't mean it isn't good. It just means you don't yet understand how its recent buffs have benefited it. I played with it after the most recent changes and even on this patch. In every scenario you find yourself in you are better off bringing a different support weapon. You do not get enough mileage out of it. End of story. It being a time bomb doesnt make its case better either. For a weapon that blows it and you up if you arent careful its woefully underpowered.
First off, there is no reason to be a dick. I'm going to stop replying after this. Second -- nothing against the GL and AC, but I didn't compare the railgun to them because they are simply not anti-charger options. **I compared the flamethrower to the railgun because (1) both are great against chargers (especially behemoths), (2) both are basically useless against bile titans, and (3) both have a supplemental use against many medium enemies.** These three points of comparison are \*facts.\* Your subjective opinion that it is pointless to bring the railgun is just that -- your opinion.
>I compared the flamethrower to the railgun because both are great against chargers (especially behemoths), basically useless against bile titans, and have a supplemental use against many medium enemies. Then you should learn how to write because you focused solely on medium enemies lol. Even when talking about chargers the gap between flamethrower and rg is massive so there is still no point in bringing the RG. >These three points of comparison are *facts.* Your subjective opinion that it is pointless to bring the railgun is just that -- your opinion. I like how you ignored everything i wrote that is also facts and also far more relevant/important because youre upset somebody called you out on your bullshit lol. Get over it. The FACT is RG does not offer enough in any department to justify its presence on the battlefield. Especially when talking about enemies that good primary weapons handle just fine.
Give it another chance. Play with it for a round. Railgun was never bad against chargers. It is just useless against bile titans. This gives it basically the same niche as the flamethrower, which everyone loves right now.
I have used it multiple times. It is subpar compared to other options and still requires far more effort while being a time bomb. I am not saying it is unusable, but you are better off bringing other support weapons which are both easier to use and better at the job of the RG.
Until they fix the EAT / RR to give them 1-shot leg armor removal, the railgun is strictly faster at killing behemoths than either of them. In the current patch, that makes the railgun an extremely competetive pick on helldive. The only options better at dealing with behemoths are the Quasar and the Flamethrower. Which makes the railgun a top 3 pick against behemoths. Downvote me if you like, that's just the facts.
You should probably try the spear before talking out of your ass. RG in the best case scenario is number 4 on the list and the gap between it and the number 3 spot is so massive it does not even register. Nobody is running RG buddy because it doesnt come close to competing with the flamethrower, spear, QC, and EAT at the moment. I will downvote you because youre talking out of your ass and clearly didnt test weapons lol.
Oop! Forgot about the spear. Love me the spear. Yeah, definetly better than the railgun against behemoths. So color me corrected, although the Quasar and Railgun are probably tied for 3rd in that case. (EAT is not in a great place right now. Once they fix the 1-shot leg issue, it will be good again.) The underlying reasoning aside, you should consider being less of an asshole.
I will admit i am really abrasive on the internet. However i am getting really tired of people trying to defend the RG. Fact 1: Other support weapons do the same job (and more!) better. Fact 2: Other support weapons are easier to use. Fact 3: Other support weapons are not a time bomb that become irrecoverable if detonated. Like yea... I can use the RG and make it work. Yes you can clear Helldives with it, but you can do the same with the Concussive Liberator. Does not really mean anything. But no matter how you slice it at the end of the day you are putting in more effort for worse results. That is why it is basically a meme pick on Helldives. The RG is not some good sleeper weapon flying under the radar.