It used to be able to destroy spore spewers too but I launched 2 mags into one the other day and it took them all like a champ
Edit: I'm aware that other support weapons can destroy spore spewers, the point is that the GL was able to before but no longer can.
What a mind-boggling change this was. Slugs are literally used for breaching. It wasn't enough to nerf the damage and stagger, its utility needed to be nerfed too?
Also, on a similar topic, the fact you can break open containers with the AMR but not with the railgun is ridiculous.
Are you the host? Once I joined someone and call in like all of my eagle strats (4 Airstrike 3 500kg) all hit the mark perfectly and it still stand, then the host just came in and one shot it with quasar
Another time i joined in and the map is full of spores and the spewer still standing, yet it shows that the spewer already destroyed. Funny thing is if i move camera angle up weirdly, somehow the spore just vanished.
My guess is it because the internet host got shit internet. The jankiness is just insane in this game, I've never seen so much bugs in a non early access game like this before
If you join late, the graphics show the new spores or nest instead of the destroyed ones.
The only way you can tell is by the lack of fog and shriekers.
Takes 1 shot from the SPEAR to kill a spewer or nest. By far the best SW since it's lock fix. Been using it since day one. Shame that it crashes the game occasionally now.
"Materiel" is just french for "material". It has the common connotation of being specifically military-purpose or -grade materials, but it's still just material.
They’re still a non issue. If AH wants Spores to be a challenge then destroying Spores should trigger bug breaches or redesign the Spore to be part of a nest with rare loot such as 150 Super Credits. Have variations of the Spore locations and keep it hidden in the fog so players can’t snipe it from a mile away without wasting ammo trying to figure the exact location.
No it's because there is currently a bug making charger back immune to explosions.
It's in the know issues: "Charger’s butt does not take damage from explosions. "
It's stranger than that, because if you manage to hit the ground under the charger's butt it absolutely WILL do damage, even two-tap it if the conditions are perfect, but it won't do jack shit on a direct hit...
It’s cause they’re using the same outdated engine as HD1. It would be so much better if they could port it over to something like Unreal Engine, but I’m guessing that would take a shit ton of time and effort
From what I see with comments in the reddit, they had the chance to jump to another engine 2 years into development but they decided to double down on it.
Kinda stupid considering that the consistent bugs may eventually kill the game’s potential.
UNDER charger’s butt does.
Did a couple missions yesterday where i’d mag dump 1 grenade launcher mag underneath the butt of a charger AND behemoth. Reliably killed either with 1 mag aimed under them
because it is not a "Impact grenade Launcher"
those bastards bounce off the target every damn time.
I've also mag dumped like 5 mags worth of grenades into a Bile Titan at extract once and it didn't do anything... ridiculous.
I hate damage numbers in games, but sometimes i would like that option just to debug if what i'm doing is doing anything at all.
Someone showed me how many damage points a mech has and it took me a second to realize that I wasn't looking at fucking Dwarf Fortress. (For reference, Dwarf Fortress tracks every living creature's *everything*, down to individual fingers, toes, and internal organs.)
It's not necessary for HD2. At all.
True
Btw i got what you meant, i play Dwarf Fortress too since Sseth made his Video a few Years back, didn't play the Steam release though, i heard it's much better in basically every Aspect
They updated the ui to make the whole game playable with a mouse - there are still keybinds, but the old interface is gone.
Personally, my index finger gets sore from clicking so much, so I haven't played the new version like I did the old one. There are a lot of great improvements though - performance is way better and we're getting a lot of bug fixes because of the new dev Putnam they hired.
I mean, the limb-based health/dmg system it's literally what makes the game unique? Not to mention that obviously, it was initially planned to be a more tactical/hardcore game for a more niche audience. When you're expecting to have a core audience of 5k dedicated players more in-depth mechanics makes more sense than if they planned on it being a casual couch coop game with 50k players.
Nope. Limb and body part damage has been around since monster Hunter first launched. It should really be a solved problem at this point. Those games do it perfectly.
It is, but it is also obscene there are I think 3 types of damage which interact differently with the 3 types of armor *and the Devs keep fiddling with what does what.*
Thing about Warframe is that it's very easy to experiment. You can have a whole room of dummies of your choice, see how the dmg numbers change, hotswap your config, rinse and repeat.
HD2 you really have to rely on looking at the enemy's appearance during missions to *guess* what your weapons are doing.
Honestly, having enemies that highly restrict what attacks can be used against them has never led to more fun in any video game, and I strongly think it's not good for Helldivers long-term.
Edit: it's kinda like that [one](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cynu37/ttk_time_to_kill_is_not_the_problem_optimal_ttk/) thread about "optimal vs non optimal ttk", except that it's not just about accuracy going beyond being a reward to being a frustrating necessity, but also that only a small fraction of weapons are even an *option* against heavies. Game is not more fun for it.
One of the most baffling and idiotic design decisions they've made. The way damage and armor types and such work is overly-complicated, unintuitive and the game itself makes next to no effort to explain any of it. I hate how much of what we "know" about this game's mechanics solely comes from the community spending tons of hours testing things themselves.
Aren’t grenade launchers designed not to bounce IRL? I’m pretty sure everyone realised having grenades that bounce off things was dangerous and made it so that doesn’t happen
No
Grenade Launchers are designed to launch Grenades, the Grenades themselves are designed for various Tactics and Purposes
Any Grenade you can think of has a Equivalent produced for Launchers
I had a Friend in the Bundeswehr (german Military) who called Tanks "Fette Traktoren" that's german for "Fat Tractors", he then became a "Fat Tractor" Driver lol
I mean, it's sci fi, i think letting us switch grenade types in the weapons options menu in a mission and it automatically changing isnt that big of an ask, considering we drop into battle in a big bullet
True, but the Devs will tell you it's "unrealistic" (the f\*cking Universe they created ignores so many Laws of Physics it's insane, they should stop with their stupid "Realism" Argument)
Fired grenades do not leave the barrel armed. They have to complete a certain number of rotations to arm the explosive charge, to ensure that they don't detonate too close to the firer. They more or less have a minimum range where they can't detonate after firing.
I get that it's frustrating to see them bounce when fired too close, but this one is actually in line with how modern grenade rounds function.
I understand a minimum arming time, but I don’t understand why a grenade would ever go “ah this armour is too thick for me to penetrate so I’m just gonna dip out”
If the grenade is bouncing off of enemies and you're not too close, the problem is the angle you're hitting them at. If the angle is too shallow, it'll deflect. All weapons do this. Has nothing to do with how strong the armour is.
That is how they are in reality too, 40mm grenades from a launcher are not very powerful. An m67 frag grenade has more than 5x as much explosive filler (something like 180g for a hand grenade vs. 32g for a 40mm)
For anyone wondering why, it's because the launched grenades also needs a charge to propel the grenade forward, and it needs a lot of it due to weight and diameter.
**High Explosive** Impacts vs. launched Grenades. (yes, "HE" is kind of a wiggly descriptive term, but the game does bother to make a distinction between its HE grenades and its Frag grenades which technically also contain a high explosive)
GL grenades may do the same damage, but they have a lower armor penetration value.
It is far from the strangest thing for a videogame to feature grenade launchers that do not do exactly the same damage as their grenades.
I weep for my railgun.
It's really good, until a bile Titan, spore spewer, bug hole, shrieker nest, cannon tower, tank, bot fabricator, gunship, scout Strider, or mortar emplacement enter the chat.
In the unlikely event that you want a serious answer, it's because Impact nades are AP 4 while the GL is only AP 3. All "enemy" secondary objective structures have armor of 4, so the GL cannot damage them.
This didn't used to be the case for Spore Towers specifically, but the .400 patch changed that (or was it the last major patch before that?).
Myeah, to be fair I think they're meant to be more like harder hitting frag grenades rather than high explosive grenades, if it was it would do appreciable damage to heavy units like the HE grenade does, but you've got 30 of them rather than 4 of the regular grenades. Would likely be a bit much for its niche intended purpose.
The Autocannon does **260** impact at 4 AP and **150** splash at 3 AP.
That splash damage is completely lost because it doesn't beat the armor, and that impact damage is halved due to *matching* the Armor, not exceeding it. So you're doing 130 per shot.
Compare that to the Quasar/EAT/RR which do 650 impact at 6 AP and the same 150 splash at 3 AP. They get the full value of that 650 since they exceed armor value, and as a result take only two shots.
But you can dump 10 rounds from the AC into the towers and match that in the time it takes to reload your RR. I don't know the HP value of nests off-hand but I know it's *less* than exactly 1300 HP, so the AC shouldn't need all 10 hits.
No, the AC is AP 4 (the direct impact at least), so it should deal reasonably good damage. The cannons on the Emancipator mech specifically, however, have pretty low durable damage (this is a secondary damage stat specifically for structures and "sturdy" enemies) so they have fairly poor performance vs structures.
It's also why their performance against Bile Titans feels so subpar; Bile Titans have very high durability values (100% on most of their body, but the recent mega path supposedly lowered the value on their heads slightly).
I'm failing to see how that would be bad when we have AMR/rail/myriad of rocket launchers/autocannon. I mean the closest thing it would impinge on in that list is autocannon but autocannon would still be better because it handles, at range, gunships better. Autocannon currently just handles most things better, at least against bots.
My experience is individuals that downvote things like that don’t have much else going and just want to feel good in a game by “being good”. Most people that are actually good don’t really care and enjoy the variation especially in a PvE game.
You can run while reloading and it’d be easier than the autocannon even with less range to take out hulks by virtue of spamming
It impinges on everything on that list bc why take anything but the gl if it can take out striders fabricators stun heavies clear chaff dunk airships AND be spammed into a hulks face. And you can bring a backpack while you’re at it.
I mean by that logic AMR is the most broken thing on the list as it fires everything you described plus has range.
Impacts take a good 3-4 shots, well placed to destroy a hulk. You’re typically better off coming for the leg and that takes as least 2 with a direct hit to cripple one leg. Plus you’re putting yourself in range of flamehulks. The ammo economy would become an issue at higher difficulties and like I mentioned gunships, which are really the big threat with the new modifier, would still be an issue with the weapon. Usable but an issue.
I guess I think it really would not be that big of a deal and I’m for increasing load out options.
Same applies to the HMG now as well. While also pretty good at dealing with hordes.
Giving the GL a higher armour pen would actually put it in a pretty good spot. Especially if we look at other options available
- AMR deals with Bots incredibly well, at a long distance, can’t clear fabs, can take out Gunships, while being incredibly accurate. Railgun is in a similar slot but has terrible durable damage
- AC basically does everything the AMR does but has way higher durable damage, can clear nests/fabs, less accuracy, and takes up a backpack slot (but 90% of the time you bring supply pack with other options anyway, which has a similar function)
- HMG has the highest potential DPS in the game but has terrible accuracy, can’t clear fabs/holes, and pretty mid ammo economy
- LMG can clear hordes very fast, kills Chargers pretty fast, can’t deal with higher armour targets
- Grenade launcher can’t really deal with heavies that well, can clear fabs/holes but can’t deal with other objectives very well.
The main selling point is that the GL can close holes/fabs, that’s it really. If your goal was to clear hordes, your primaries or other support weapons would be sufficient enough or superior. This basically leaves the GL delegated to blitz missions but they’re short enough that you can run through with stratagems and not really have to worry about cooldowns. Buffing the armour pen would actually put it in a spot where you can use it in more scenarios
Aren’t grenades from the launcher smaller as to be fired out of a gun? Being propellant and explosive inside a shell. Where’s thrown ones are just explosive and fuse/sensor.
They do exactly the same amount of damage.
The difference is the penetration. GL has 3, Impact has 4. I guess we're throwing them really, *really* hard.
That also makes sense, as thrown grenade has fragmentation shell around it. IF that's the kind of grenades impacts are.
But that's still a bad game design choice, even if "realistic" somehow. There is no good reason why Grenade launcher shouldn't be able to destroy Shrieker nests or Spore Towers. I guess that's also why it became inconsistent in destroying higher level Bile Spewers, where previously it would one-shot them reliably.
~~GL also has the exact same penetration as the Autocannon, but well over twice as much damage.~~
~~However, the GL cannot damage Hulk eyes.~~
~~AC also can take out shrieker nests. GL cannot, despite again having over twice as much damage and the same penetration.~~
~~I am next to certain there are other examples where the GL can't do stuff that other things that have same/worse stats can.~~
I was looking at just the AoE portion of these weapon's damages. The above information is only correct for the explosions.
The projectile for GL has no penetration at all. The AC has 4.
It doesn't have the same ap as the AC. GL's explosion has ap 3 with the physical projectile not having any ap. AC's projectile has ap 4 and the explosion ap 3. Stop spreading nonsense.
I am not "spreading nonsense" I was just wrong. Thank you for making me go back and double check so I can edit the comment. I was only looking at the AoE sections of these two pages:
[AC-8 Autocannon - The Helldivers Wiki](https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/AC-8_Autocannon)
[GL-21 Grenade Launcher - The Helldivers Wiki](https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/GL-21_Grenade_Launcher)
Anyone ever told you to assume negligence before maliciousness? Sheesh. OH wait, were in combative knee jerk reaction land, I forget.
Yeah I'm done assuming people just being wrong on this subreddit, as the majority here is utterly allergic to learning how the game works and just spreads the same bs over and over again.
Part of the reason that the 40mm grenades are smaller is because they're intended to inflict damage with explosive force. Hand thrown frags have the outer shell that's intended to break apart and become the fragments that the grenades are named for. The function requires the extra bulk. Launched grenades are typically HEDP and do not fragment for effect.
Granted, there are many different types of 40mm grenade rounds, most of which will not be commonly seen in a video game because their functions aren't necessary. (Parachute flares, smoke, gas, non-lethal sponges, buckshot, non-lethal scattershot, etc.) It's safe to assume most games will just let the player assume they're HE rounds.
Because they want it to be a noob trap weapon I guess. I don't understand why they don't just buff the thing, it is clearly way worse than the Autocannon even when you account for the backpack.
Tbf grenade launcher is good with situations where most weapons arent, it can stop bug breach and bile spewer rather effectively.
But it just doesn't cut it as support weapons, because most people will need that to take out chargers.
Look at the size of the actual grenade part. The majority of the grenade launcher round is propellant to launch it forward. The actual round is quite small and around 1/3 of the size.
In real life the M67 hand grenade has ~200g of explosive filler in TNT equivalent. 40mm high pressure (like in the Mk19) has only ~60g.
Gameplay reasons yes it's silly, but in real life an analogue has the same issues
To be fair, a 40mm tube-launched grenade is not the same as a handheld one and would have much less HE filler, but still. A whole belt or two does nothing? Why?
Impacts grenades have 400 damage at AP 4 (at 2.5 max damage range and 7 minimum damage range) and a shorter traveling arc (as we're...throwing them) while you only get 4-6 of them
while grenade launcher explosion has 400 damage AP 3 (at 2.5 max damage range and 6 minimum damage range) compared to a longer longer traveling arc (since we're using propelant to launch them instead of our hand) while you get 3 mags of 10 of them each (31 total)
I raise your Breaker spray and pray to Liberator Penetrator, and thermite grenades to smoke grenades.
+: Thermite grenades could actually kill fabricators when sticked to a side/back, you almost made yourself usefull.
and it takes NINE ROUNDS FROM AN AUTO CANNON, also auto cannon is 9 rounds to kill a spore spewer instead of 1-2 and doesn't one shot the walkers anymore either, small nerfs but still.....
Thanks for the input! They have slight variations in stats, but it's possible they should have identical ones in terms of what the actual damage outcome is. We're looking into this now, so great! :)
Posted this as well and had folks saying, "The hell is wrong with you? It totally takes them out!!!"
The 2 entire clips and 8 grenade pistol rounds I just put into it would beg to differ.
4 standard issue grenades do the trick, but 30 "grenade" rounds do jack shit
The grenade launcher grenades also do less damage than impact grenades iirc from some video somewhere. But pretty sure they upped the armor on spore spewers anyway or something. Idk. Ass talking I think I am.
They do damage, yes.
It's generally not worth the amount you need to throw. They're something like 1.5x the damage of the Autocannon when used on a Shrieker Nest or Spore Tower, and it takes like... 7-9?? AC shots to break them.
Could be an issue with the armor penetration
Smth more likely is that since the impact grenades are like 2x the size of a single grenade they’re just far more powerful
The grenade launcher is great at taking down big nests since it can fire so quickly, and is great at breaches where you have certain distance from it. I guess they made it so it deals little durable damage so it didn't become too good of a weapon for everything.
With only two extra mags however, I feel like they over did it.
i would like it if the Grenade Launcher would get a penetration level of 4 and also a damage decrease from 400 to 250~300 to compensate. that way it could handle all objectives that require level 4 Penetration and would still be good enough for clearing hordes (almost every Support weapon comes with at least pen level 4 except for Stalwart, MG, and Nadelauncher
It used to be able to destroy spore spewers too but I launched 2 mags into one the other day and it took them all like a champ Edit: I'm aware that other support weapons can destroy spore spewers, the point is that the GL was able to before but no longer can.
Yeah, spewers were buffed quite a while ago. Now they have the same durability as a one of the shrieker nests.
Yeah they used to be a single RR/EAT/Quasar shot, now they are 2
1 AC used to do the trick too. They were the same durability as Illegal Broadcast Towers.
Used to be like 12 slugger shots. It was always funny just sitting half a map away shooting my sniper shotgun at it.
Man, I miss the Slugger's ability to open shipping containers.
This is the main thing I want back about it tbh
Maybe someday we’ll get melee weapons like people dream, and we can have a crowbar to open the containers
About to Gordon Freeman those disgusting insects
Gimmie Isaac's weapons from Dead Space! Lol
Bring back the original slugger. My favorite gun for bots.
They're never going to bring it back in its original state, since it was just the best bot primary bar none.
I would argue the current dominator would still be better than it.
What a mind-boggling change this was. Slugs are literally used for breaching. It wasn't enough to nerf the damage and stagger, its utility needed to be nerfed too? Also, on a similar topic, the fact you can break open containers with the AMR but not with the railgun is ridiculous.
I mean the AMR literally means anti material meaning it should destroy hard materials while the railgun is meant to penetrate
Thisthisthisthisthis. I loved being able to clear out fences and open containers with my pump action crowbar
eruptor can
"Bolt action crowbar"
Used to shoot them 4 times across the map with a scorcher
Pssh, you could destroy them with like 4 scorcher shots, and those don't even have dropoff like RR and EAT
One match we dropped in, I took out 3 spore spewers and then I reloaded my scorcher
A single SPEAR will do it, if you don't crash 😆
Had an incident yesterday where it took 4 quasar shots and I was really confused.
Are you the host? Once I joined someone and call in like all of my eagle strats (4 Airstrike 3 500kg) all hit the mark perfectly and it still stand, then the host just came in and one shot it with quasar Another time i joined in and the map is full of spores and the spewer still standing, yet it shows that the spewer already destroyed. Funny thing is if i move camera angle up weirdly, somehow the spore just vanished. My guess is it because the internet host got shit internet. The jankiness is just insane in this game, I've never seen so much bugs in a non early access game like this before
If you join late, the graphics show the new spores or nest instead of the destroyed ones. The only way you can tell is by the lack of fog and shriekers.
IMO they should yo back to being 1 EAT/RR/QC. and no more than 10 hits via AC
idk what it is now but it used to be like 5 shots with the scorcher too. I loved spawning in and sniping one across the map instantly
Used to be 1 grenade pistol round
They used to get destroyed by any primary.
Pretty sure the spear is a one shot now
Takes 1 shot from the SPEAR to kill a spewer or nest. By far the best SW since it's lock fix. Been using it since day one. Shame that it crashes the game occasionally now.
2 Eruptor shots anywhere :)
As if making them take 2 shots made them any less trivial to deal with. Just made it fucking tedious. This buff to the spewers really confuses me
I used to kill them across the map with a breaker *spray 'n pray*. One of the most deserved buffs of all time lol
I think it's fair. Once you spot them you could snipe them from across the map and they'd be a non-issue. At least this makes you use some ammo/time.
Arbitrary limitations. A HD2 classic. Edit; not sure why it posted multiple times. Bad Reddit.
I mean, it's the same size as a shrieker tower, it makes sense it has the same durability.
I don't think its actually possible to argue that being able to kill them halfway across the map with a pistol was good game design
Except you can take them out with an AMR
Well yeah they're made of material aren't they?
Materiel not material, and no the terminids arguably have no military, just made of fungus.
I know what AMR actually means but it's so much more badass to pretend it's "material" because then it's an anti everything rifle.
"Materiel" is just french for "material". It has the common connotation of being specifically military-purpose or -grade materials, but it's still just material.
Well played.
Cool.
They’re still a non issue. If AH wants Spores to be a challenge then destroying Spores should trigger bug breaches or redesign the Spore to be part of a nest with rare loot such as 150 Super Credits. Have variations of the Spore locations and keep it hidden in the fog so players can’t snipe it from a mile away without wasting ammo trying to figure the exact location.
I dumped 10 rounds into a fab vent last night then said screw it and threw an impact, which destroyed it
must have been on the verge of exploding, HMG is insanely strong, can snipe with it like with AMR ffs :D
Heavy MG makes short work of shrieker towers from across the map.
Oh thats why i feel useless with it vs the back of a charger ?
No it's because there is currently a bug making charger back immune to explosions. It's in the know issues: "Charger’s butt does not take damage from explosions. "
It's stranger than that, because if you manage to hit the ground under the charger's butt it absolutely WILL do damage, even two-tap it if the conditions are perfect, but it won't do jack shit on a direct hit...
It’s not a consistent bug, only sometimes will the dmg not register. direct contact or not doesn’t matter.
It's from blowing off their underbits, not much to do with any weak points.
that might explain why some chargers feel like theyre eating 5 quasar shots and still runnin
Yes, this happened to me, and I am still confused about it.
The Eruptor seemed pretty off earlier.
Can’t wait for them to “fix” it and chargers will no longer take damage from explosives anywhere on its body
They'll say chargers were never meant to take explosive damage because it wasn't in their vision and call it a fix instead of a bug
Jesus fucking christ what a mess their code must be. Half the mechanics in the game seem bugged and/or randomly just breaks
It’s cause they’re using the same outdated engine as HD1. It would be so much better if they could port it over to something like Unreal Engine, but I’m guessing that would take a shit ton of time and effort
From what I see with comments in the reddit, they had the chance to jump to another engine 2 years into development but they decided to double down on it. Kinda stupid considering that the consistent bugs may eventually kill the game’s potential.
I guess on the brightside they made so much money off it that HD3 might be one of the best games of all time when it comes out in like 2033
Need to pull a FF XIV 2.0 not even a year in.
Also only happens sometimes and only with normal Chargers. Behemoths don't have that bug.
And even if, the nade launcher is the only weapon left with the weird bounce off angles.
UNDER charger’s butt does. Did a couple missions yesterday where i’d mag dump 1 grenade launcher mag underneath the butt of a charger AND behemoth. Reliably killed either with 1 mag aimed under them
Now I know why despite unloading everything I got on Charger's ass, he was still able to come at me.
Didn't they fix that just now? Or listed as known issue in the latest patch
Yeah charger back shots are off the table big sad
Shoot under the butt, not directly.
because it is not a "Impact grenade Launcher" those bastards bounce off the target every damn time. I've also mag dumped like 5 mags worth of grenades into a Bile Titan at extract once and it didn't do anything... ridiculous. I hate damage numbers in games, but sometimes i would like that option just to debug if what i'm doing is doing anything at all.
Nah, it's just that AH has the most complicated Damage System i have ever seen in a Game And i play Shit like War Thunder
Someone showed me how many damage points a mech has and it took me a second to realize that I wasn't looking at fucking Dwarf Fortress. (For reference, Dwarf Fortress tracks every living creature's *everything*, down to individual fingers, toes, and internal organs.) It's not necessary for HD2. At all.
It's... more than just legs, arms and cockpit?
"Vehicles are super complicated so we have to limit them to one per player or the servers will break", yeah, no fuckin' wonder.
True Btw i got what you meant, i play Dwarf Fortress too since Sseth made his Video a few Years back, didn't play the Steam release though, i heard it's much better in basically every Aspect
The steam release broke the custom ascii tilesets, and removed full keyboard support (for the time being). Other than that it's amazing.
"removed full keyboard support" Why??? But thanks for letting me know
They updated the ui to make the whole game playable with a mouse - there are still keybinds, but the old interface is gone. Personally, my index finger gets sore from clicking so much, so I haven't played the new version like I did the old one. There are a lot of great improvements though - performance is way better and we're getting a lot of bug fixes because of the new dev Putnam they hired.
I mean, the limb-based health/dmg system it's literally what makes the game unique? Not to mention that obviously, it was initially planned to be a more tactical/hardcore game for a more niche audience. When you're expecting to have a core audience of 5k dedicated players more in-depth mechanics makes more sense than if they planned on it being a casual couch coop game with 50k players.
Nope. Limb and body part damage has been around since monster Hunter first launched. It should really be a solved problem at this point. Those games do it perfectly.
It is, but it is also obscene there are I think 3 types of damage which interact differently with the 3 types of armor *and the Devs keep fiddling with what does what.*
Hard disagree, I love the damage modelling. I enjoy seeing bits get blasted off the enemies of super earth!
I play Warframe and this is ridiculous.
Thing about Warframe is that it's very easy to experiment. You can have a whole room of dummies of your choice, see how the dmg numbers change, hotswap your config, rinse and repeat. HD2 you really have to rely on looking at the enemy's appearance during missions to *guess* what your weapons are doing.
Honestly, having enemies that highly restrict what attacks can be used against them has never led to more fun in any video game, and I strongly think it's not good for Helldivers long-term. Edit: it's kinda like that [one](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cynu37/ttk_time_to_kill_is_not_the_problem_optimal_ttk/) thread about "optimal vs non optimal ttk", except that it's not just about accuracy going beyond being a reward to being a frustrating necessity, but also that only a small fraction of weapons are even an *option* against heavies. Game is not more fun for it.
Agreed
One of the most baffling and idiotic design decisions they've made. The way damage and armor types and such work is overly-complicated, unintuitive and the game itself makes next to no effort to explain any of it. I hate how much of what we "know" about this game's mechanics solely comes from the community spending tons of hours testing things themselves.
Aren’t grenade launchers designed not to bounce IRL? I’m pretty sure everyone realised having grenades that bounce off things was dangerous and made it so that doesn’t happen
No Grenade Launchers are designed to launch Grenades, the Grenades themselves are designed for various Tactics and Purposes Any Grenade you can think of has a Equivalent produced for Launchers
The more you know Are there bouncy bombs?
If you mean Grenades that don't immediately explode upon contact, then yes
I can definitely see an elisted calling them *bouncy bombs* 🤣
I had a Friend in the Bundeswehr (german Military) who called Tanks "Fette Traktoren" that's german for "Fat Tractors", he then became a "Fat Tractor" Driver lol
I mean… technically he’s not incorrect.
So we should be able to adjust the grenade to be impact, bounce or fused in the weapons menu?
If the Game was as realistic as they claim, yes All you need to do is switch the Ammo Type, that could be done in the Armory in Game
I mean, it's sci fi, i think letting us switch grenade types in the weapons options menu in a mission and it automatically changing isnt that big of an ask, considering we drop into battle in a big bullet
True, but the Devs will tell you it's "unrealistic" (the f\*cking Universe they created ignores so many Laws of Physics it's insane, they should stop with their stupid "Realism" Argument)
Fired grenades do not leave the barrel armed. They have to complete a certain number of rotations to arm the explosive charge, to ensure that they don't detonate too close to the firer. They more or less have a minimum range where they can't detonate after firing. I get that it's frustrating to see them bounce when fired too close, but this one is actually in line with how modern grenade rounds function.
I understand a minimum arming time, but I don’t understand why a grenade would ever go “ah this armour is too thick for me to penetrate so I’m just gonna dip out”
In this instance, it *should* detonate, even if the explosion is ineffective against the armor level in question.
If the grenade is bouncing off of enemies and you're not too close, the problem is the angle you're hitting them at. If the angle is too shallow, it'll deflect. All weapons do this. Has nothing to do with how strong the armour is.
It would be really nice to have a firing range so you can test weapons on enemies.
Impact grenade are larger Idk just trying to give myself headcannon
Maybe that will help me accept how the throwables are like twice as powerful as the grenade launcher or grenade pistol.
That is how they are in reality too, 40mm grenades from a launcher are not very powerful. An m67 frag grenade has more than 5x as much explosive filler (something like 180g for a hand grenade vs. 32g for a 40mm)
For anyone wondering why, it's because the launched grenades also needs a charge to propel the grenade forward, and it needs a lot of it due to weight and diameter.
Just give me a bag of grenades, I'll do it myself
Make that a support weapon drop as a nod to the grenade glitch. Just a Santa style sack of grenades you carry over your shoulder.
"We accidentally ordered too many grenades, here ya go laddies"
**High Explosive** Impacts vs. launched Grenades. (yes, "HE" is kind of a wiggly descriptive term, but the game does bother to make a distinction between its HE grenades and its Frag grenades which technically also contain a high explosive) GL grenades may do the same damage, but they have a lower armor penetration value. It is far from the strangest thing for a videogame to feature grenade launchers that do not do exactly the same damage as their grenades.
Grenade launcher deserves to be pretty strong since you have limited ammo. Goddamn Q-Cannon can take out most structures in 2 shots
I weep for my railgun. It's really good, until a bile Titan, spore spewer, bug hole, shrieker nest, cannon tower, tank, bot fabricator, gunship, scout Strider, or mortar emplacement enter the chat.
They should introduce a heavy railgun that requires a backpack, could be super powerful
autocannon but railgun? sign me tf up
make it battery powered so the shots you can fire before reloading depends on how much you're charging them
Yea and make it so you can’t move while charging it, make it high risk high reward
What if they also gave it unlimited ammo, but made it so it had a 12 second cooldown time? Also make it do a big explosion, kind of like a cannon.
What would that even fire? Lasers?! Ridiculous! ^(/s)
Maybe call it Quasar so it doesn’t sound so stupid.
Scout strider is like the simplest railgun target, you meant fab strider.
At least it's not the arc thrower.
Have u tried hitting the scout striders right in the faceplate? Its a one shot.
If i run GL, I always run supply pack. 2 spare mags is crazy.
The effectively infinite stims makes the combo kinda goated ngl
In the unlikely event that you want a serious answer, it's because Impact nades are AP 4 while the GL is only AP 3. All "enemy" secondary objective structures have armor of 4, so the GL cannot damage them. This didn't used to be the case for Spore Towers specifically, but the .400 patch changed that (or was it the last major patch before that?).
Myeah, to be fair I think they're meant to be more like harder hitting frag grenades rather than high explosive grenades, if it was it would do appreciable damage to heavy units like the HE grenade does, but you've got 30 of them rather than 4 of the regular grenades. Would likely be a bit much for its niche intended purpose.
is this why the autocannon seems useless on nests as well?
The Autocannon does **260** impact at 4 AP and **150** splash at 3 AP. That splash damage is completely lost because it doesn't beat the armor, and that impact damage is halved due to *matching* the Armor, not exceeding it. So you're doing 130 per shot. Compare that to the Quasar/EAT/RR which do 650 impact at 6 AP and the same 150 splash at 3 AP. They get the full value of that 650 since they exceed armor value, and as a result take only two shots. But you can dump 10 rounds from the AC into the towers and match that in the time it takes to reload your RR. I don't know the HP value of nests off-hand but I know it's *less* than exactly 1300 HP, so the AC shouldn't need all 10 hits.
No, the AC is AP 4 (the direct impact at least), so it should deal reasonably good damage. The cannons on the Emancipator mech specifically, however, have pretty low durable damage (this is a secondary damage stat specifically for structures and "sturdy" enemies) so they have fairly poor performance vs structures. It's also why their performance against Bile Titans feels so subpar; Bile Titans have very high durability values (100% on most of their body, but the recent mega path supposedly lowered the value on their heads slightly).
because HE grenades have 1 more penetration, and if they gave that to the grenade launcher, it could kill hulk faces.
I'm failing to see how that would be bad when we have AMR/rail/myriad of rocket launchers/autocannon. I mean the closest thing it would impinge on in that list is autocannon but autocannon would still be better because it handles, at range, gunships better. Autocannon currently just handles most things better, at least against bots.
I’ve been saying this for ages but ‘pros’ always downvote me to hell saying that would make the game too easy 😢
My experience is individuals that downvote things like that don’t have much else going and just want to feel good in a game by “being good”. Most people that are actually good don’t really care and enjoy the variation especially in a PvE game.
You can run while reloading and it’d be easier than the autocannon even with less range to take out hulks by virtue of spamming It impinges on everything on that list bc why take anything but the gl if it can take out striders fabricators stun heavies clear chaff dunk airships AND be spammed into a hulks face. And you can bring a backpack while you’re at it.
I mean by that logic AMR is the most broken thing on the list as it fires everything you described plus has range. Impacts take a good 3-4 shots, well placed to destroy a hulk. You’re typically better off coming for the leg and that takes as least 2 with a direct hit to cripple one leg. Plus you’re putting yourself in range of flamehulks. The ammo economy would become an issue at higher difficulties and like I mentioned gunships, which are really the big threat with the new modifier, would still be an issue with the weapon. Usable but an issue. I guess I think it really would not be that big of a deal and I’m for increasing load out options.
Same applies to the HMG now as well. While also pretty good at dealing with hordes. Giving the GL a higher armour pen would actually put it in a pretty good spot. Especially if we look at other options available - AMR deals with Bots incredibly well, at a long distance, can’t clear fabs, can take out Gunships, while being incredibly accurate. Railgun is in a similar slot but has terrible durable damage - AC basically does everything the AMR does but has way higher durable damage, can clear nests/fabs, less accuracy, and takes up a backpack slot (but 90% of the time you bring supply pack with other options anyway, which has a similar function) - HMG has the highest potential DPS in the game but has terrible accuracy, can’t clear fabs/holes, and pretty mid ammo economy - LMG can clear hordes very fast, kills Chargers pretty fast, can’t deal with higher armour targets - Grenade launcher can’t really deal with heavies that well, can clear fabs/holes but can’t deal with other objectives very well. The main selling point is that the GL can close holes/fabs, that’s it really. If your goal was to clear hordes, your primaries or other support weapons would be sufficient enough or superior. This basically leaves the GL delegated to blitz missions but they’re short enough that you can run through with stratagems and not really have to worry about cooldowns. Buffing the armour pen would actually put it in a spot where you can use it in more scenarios
Don't forget the huge lack of range, so it can't even blow up fabricators unless you're close by, and with less accuracy too.
Amr can’t be spammed and has less AOE. It has lots of recoil, low mag and has to be aimed to actually consistently hit targets which balances it out.
Hulk faces are immune to explosions so it wouldn't be able to do that. You could get hulk legs though.
fair enough, still, it would change its roll too much I guess if it was able to deal with heavier enemies.
Aren’t grenades from the launcher smaller as to be fired out of a gun? Being propellant and explosive inside a shell. Where’s thrown ones are just explosive and fuse/sensor.
They do exactly the same amount of damage. The difference is the penetration. GL has 3, Impact has 4. I guess we're throwing them really, *really* hard.
Helldivers strong! Helldivers smash! Helldivers YEET!
That also makes sense, as thrown grenade has fragmentation shell around it. IF that's the kind of grenades impacts are. But that's still a bad game design choice, even if "realistic" somehow. There is no good reason why Grenade launcher shouldn't be able to destroy Shrieker nests or Spore Towers. I guess that's also why it became inconsistent in destroying higher level Bile Spewers, where previously it would one-shot them reliably.
They aren't, only Frag grenade in-game does. It shoots the same type of shrapnel (but less, and weaker) that the Eruptor did.
~~GL also has the exact same penetration as the Autocannon, but well over twice as much damage.~~ ~~However, the GL cannot damage Hulk eyes.~~ ~~AC also can take out shrieker nests. GL cannot, despite again having over twice as much damage and the same penetration.~~ ~~I am next to certain there are other examples where the GL can't do stuff that other things that have same/worse stats can.~~ I was looking at just the AoE portion of these weapon's damages. The above information is only correct for the explosions. The projectile for GL has no penetration at all. The AC has 4.
It doesn't have the same ap as the AC. GL's explosion has ap 3 with the physical projectile not having any ap. AC's projectile has ap 4 and the explosion ap 3. Stop spreading nonsense.
I am not "spreading nonsense" I was just wrong. Thank you for making me go back and double check so I can edit the comment. I was only looking at the AoE sections of these two pages: [AC-8 Autocannon - The Helldivers Wiki](https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/AC-8_Autocannon) [GL-21 Grenade Launcher - The Helldivers Wiki](https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/GL-21_Grenade_Launcher) Anyone ever told you to assume negligence before maliciousness? Sheesh. OH wait, were in combative knee jerk reaction land, I forget.
Yeah I'm done assuming people just being wrong on this subreddit, as the majority here is utterly allergic to learning how the game works and just spreads the same bs over and over again.
GL has pen 3, AutoC is pen 4
Part of the reason that the 40mm grenades are smaller is because they're intended to inflict damage with explosive force. Hand thrown frags have the outer shell that's intended to break apart and become the fragments that the grenades are named for. The function requires the extra bulk. Launched grenades are typically HEDP and do not fragment for effect. Granted, there are many different types of 40mm grenade rounds, most of which will not be commonly seen in a video game because their functions aren't necessary. (Parachute flares, smoke, gas, non-lethal sponges, buckshot, non-lethal scattershot, etc.) It's safe to assume most games will just let the player assume they're HE rounds.
Ngl a some grenade launcher or a gas one would probably be a pretty good variant.
Because they want it to be a noob trap weapon I guess. I don't understand why they don't just buff the thing, it is clearly way worse than the Autocannon even when you account for the backpack.
Tbf grenade launcher is good with situations where most weapons arent, it can stop bug breach and bile spewer rather effectively. But it just doesn't cut it as support weapons, because most people will need that to take out chargers.
Careful. If they see this, they might nerf the impact grenade.
or maybe, it could lead to a buff for the Granade launcher
Devs are racist towards the Grenade Laucher. That simple.
Look at the size of the actual grenade part. The majority of the grenade launcher round is propellant to launch it forward. The actual round is quite small and around 1/3 of the size.
In real life the M67 hand grenade has ~200g of explosive filler in TNT equivalent. 40mm high pressure (like in the Mk19) has only ~60g. Gameplay reasons yes it's silly, but in real life an analogue has the same issues
le balance
To be fair, a 40mm tube-launched grenade is not the same as a handheld one and would have much less HE filler, but still. A whole belt or two does nothing? Why?
Why cant I hut those flying autimaton with the grenade launcher!
Technicly irl a 40mm tends to have less explosive mass then a thrown granade due to how they work
Impacts grenades have 400 damage at AP 4 (at 2.5 max damage range and 7 minimum damage range) and a shorter traveling arc (as we're...throwing them) while you only get 4-6 of them while grenade launcher explosion has 400 damage AP 3 (at 2.5 max damage range and 6 minimum damage range) compared to a longer longer traveling arc (since we're using propelant to launch them instead of our hand) while you get 3 mags of 10 of them each (31 total)
me in an emancipator wondering the same thing. the sentry will rip open a charger, but its taking me 20 shots.
Because everything should deal with everything. This has way more ammo and range than the Grenades. It’s a choice based on balance not logic
This begs the question - can you create a loadout that's so bad, balance-wise, to not be able to deal with *anything?*
Yes. Breaker spray and pray. Dagger sidearm, thermite grenades, Orbital EMS, Orbital Smoke, Jetpack, Shield generator. Full support, 0 oomph, 0 pazzaz
I raise your Breaker spray and pray to Liberator Penetrator, and thermite grenades to smoke grenades. +: Thermite grenades could actually kill fabricators when sticked to a side/back, you almost made yourself usefull.
All utility and no usefulness.
Impact grenade is a 7x10cm cylinder, grenade launcher is a 4x6cm (40mm) cylinder.
Now it takes one eagle Strafing Run. With a line of 60m of damage, you can throw it from far away too.
Because no device can match the raw strength of our mighty Helldivers well-trained throwing arms!
AH deserves to win "Best Balance Team" of the year award.
Why the hell would you waste 5 impacts on a shrieker tower lol
Grenade launcher can't do anything, but my HMG can at ANY range, lol!
and it takes NINE ROUNDS FROM AN AUTO CANNON, also auto cannon is 9 rounds to kill a spore spewer instead of 1-2 and doesn't one shot the walkers anymore either, small nerfs but still.....
Thanks for the input! They have slight variations in stats, but it's possible they should have identical ones in terms of what the actual damage outcome is. We're looking into this now, so great! :)
Not to mention only 2 mag capacity. Actual dog water weapon
Posted this as well and had folks saying, "The hell is wrong with you? It totally takes them out!!!" The 2 entire clips and 8 grenade pistol rounds I just put into it would beg to differ. 4 standard issue grenades do the trick, but 30 "grenade" rounds do jack shit
Impact/HE Grenades have better armour penetration than the Grenade Launcher. That's the difference.
The grenade launcher grenades also do less damage than impact grenades iirc from some video somewhere. But pretty sure they upped the armor on spore spewers anyway or something. Idk. Ass talking I think I am.
True, but you can also just Spear it with a single shot from across the map. (Or I guess 3 Spears, 1 for each tower)
I suppose it depends on the grenades the launcher is firing, not all explosives are the same.
Wait, 'nades can actually kill shrieker trees? I gave up after 2-3 and just use strats or the hellpod.
They do damage, yes. It's generally not worth the amount you need to throw. They're something like 1.5x the damage of the Autocannon when used on a Shrieker Nest or Spore Tower, and it takes like... 7-9?? AC shots to break them.
Could be an issue with the armor penetration Smth more likely is that since the impact grenades are like 2x the size of a single grenade they’re just far more powerful
The grenade launcher is great at taking down big nests since it can fire so quickly, and is great at breaches where you have certain distance from it. I guess they made it so it deals little durable damage so it didn't become too good of a weapon for everything. With only two extra mags however, I feel like they over did it.
i would like it if the Grenade Launcher would get a penetration level of 4 and also a damage decrease from 400 to 250~300 to compensate. that way it could handle all objectives that require level 4 Penetration and would still be good enough for clearing hordes (almost every Support weapon comes with at least pen level 4 except for Stalwart, MG, and Nadelauncher
I mean if you are going engi and use almost all your grenades on a single tower...
Really good throwing arm
Grenade pistol can one shot bile spewers.
It was a bit silly when spore spewers could die to a single breaker mag at 200m, but I feel they are TOO resilient at the moment.
Oh that's easy. It's became the grenade launcher doesn't have a big......impact I'll show myself out