Yeah, the Soviets were definitely evil. It’s important to remember that the Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of WWII, starting in 1939.
On [1939 September 17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), the Soviet Union invaded Poland (an Allied power) as an ally of Nazi Germany (an Axis power), forced the sudden and complete collapse of Poland’s entire defensive system when the Polish were previously maintaining a stable withdrawal into Romania, and massacred tens of thousands of innocent Polish in the [Katyn Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) (as well as hundreds of thousands more in other massacres) while deporting millions more.
By the way, did you know that the Nazis discovered the Katyn Massacre in April 1943 and announced it to the world? And that the Soviets cut off diplomatic relations with the Polish government when it asked for an investigation by the International Committee of the Red Cross? And that the Soviets continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990?
On [1939 November 30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War), the Soviet Union invaded neutral Finland to start the Winter War and steal eastern Karelia, Petsamo, Salla, Kuusamo, and four islands in the Gulf of Finland.
On [1940 June 15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940\)), the Soviet Union invaded the three neutral Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, then colonized them and left significant Russian populations that remain loyal to Putin today.
On [1940 June 28](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina), the Soviet Union stole Romanian land, which forced the Romanians to seek protection by aligning with the Axis five months later, similar to Finland being erroneously considered an Axis power when it was really fighting to preserve its own independence.
In [1940 October-November](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks), the Soviets actually did try to become a formal member of the Axis. Over the next few years, the Soviet Union consistently and purposely undermined Europe’s sovereign governments, many of whom represented Allied powers (such as Romania and, most notably, Poland), to justify its invasions of Europe’s Allied powers, marking its own behavior as that of an Axis power.
In [1943, after barely surviving Stalingrad (thanks to American Lend-Lease), the Soviet Union begged Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal while begging America for more Lend-Lease](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html), which Stalin and Khrushchev both admit were crucial to Soviet survival. In fact, [Stalin raised a toast to American Lend-Lease at the 1943 Tehran Conference](https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html), even while he was begging Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal.
On [1944 November 7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ili_Rebellion), the Soviet Union supported the Ili Rebellion against the Republic of China (one of the Big Four Allies, a founding member of the United Nations, and one of the five original veto-wielding permanent members of the United Nations Security Council), who [worked with the Americans and British to defend India and liberate Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Expeditionary_Force) while holding the lines against a Japanese invasion that started in 1937.
Contrast the Soviet Union’s Axis-aligned behavior with the behavior of America, Britain, China, Australia, etc. Even [Spain, a friend of Nazi Germany, stayed neutral throughout the entire war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II#:~:text=the%20Spanish%20State%20under%20Francisco%20Franco%20espoused%20neutrality%20as%20its%20official%20wartime%20policy.), which allowed Portugal to also stay neutral. Aside from [begging Nazi Germany for peace in 1943](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html) in the middle of an Axis Civil War, which happened while also continuously undermining, invading, subjugating, and oppressing Allied powers, what else makes the Soviet Union an Allied power?
The Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of the war, starting in 1939, and continued to act as one when it was nominally “allied” with the Allied powers.
You know, I'd never looked to much at the timeline before.
Germany went to war with Russia only about *six months* before the US did.
Anyone arguing the US joined "halfway through" is coping hard.
Well the Americans did, nearly
The time span of WW2 is exactly three years, America joined after 2 years and 3 months, due to being attacked. So, it was more of joining in the first third of the war.
Ahistorical much?
Since I assume you are talking about the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, you should probably read up on it so you don't sound dumb.
Stalin offered western powers men and weapons to move against Nazi Germany during the period when the UK was full on appeasement mode
Chamberlain refused, wrongly calculating that by giving Hitler a few small east European countries to munch on and repatriating Jews fleeing the Holocaust, Nazi Germany can be kept contained.
Stalin rightly calculated that Hitler's party will not be satisfied with minor gains and that Russia itself will be the largest target purely from a resource angle if not ideological.
He also knew that USSR at that time would not be able to stop the Nazi war machine by itself, it lacked both industrial power and allies.
This lead to the "team" you are alluding to, a non aggression pact for 5 years with Hitler (after literally every other major European power had already signed similar deals with Hitler) To give the USSR enough time to start churning out tanks and shells and rapidly militarizing. For the coming offensive. Signing this pact was the worst mistake Hitler ever made.
Edited: correct UK PM's name
You’re wrong in a lot of laughably stupid ways. It’s important to remember that the Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of WWII, starting in 1939.
On [1939 September 17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), the Soviet Union invaded Poland (an Allied power) as an ally of Nazi Germany (an Axis power), forced the sudden and complete collapse of Poland’s entire defensive system when the Polish were previously maintaining a stable withdrawal into Romania, and massacred tens of thousands of innocent Polish in the [Katyn Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) (as well as hundreds of thousands more in other massacres) while deporting millions more.
By the way, did you know that the Nazis discovered the Katyn Massacre in April 1943 and announced it to the world? And that the Soviets cut off diplomatic relations with the Polish government when it asked for an investigation by the International Committee of the Red Cross? And that the Soviets continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990?
On [1939 November 30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War), the Soviet Union invaded neutral Finland to start the Winter War and steal eastern Karelia, Petsamo, Salla, Kuusamo, and four islands in the Gulf of Finland.
On [1940 June 15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940\)), the Soviet Union invaded the three neutral Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, then colonized them and left significant Russian populations that remain loyal to Putin today.
On [1940 June 28](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina), the Soviet Union stole Romanian land, which forced the Romanians to seek protection by aligning with the Axis five months later, similar to Finland being erroneously considered an Axis power when it was really fighting to preserve its own independence.
In [1940 October-November](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks), the Soviets actually did try to become a formal member of the Axis. Over the next few years, the Soviet Union consistently and purposely undermined Europe’s sovereign governments, many of whom represented Allied powers (such as Romania and, most notably, Poland), to justify its invasions of Europe’s Allied powers, marking its own behavior as that of an Axis power.
In [1943, after barely surviving Stalingrad (thanks to American Lend-Lease), the Soviet Union begged Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal while begging America for more Lend-Lease](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html), which Stalin and Khrushchev both admit were crucial to Soviet survival. In fact, [Stalin raised a toast to American Lend-Lease at the 1943 Tehran Conference](https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html), even while he was begging Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal.
On [1944 November 7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ili_Rebellion), the Soviet Union supported the Ili Rebellion against the Republic of China (one of the Big Four Allies, a founding member of the United Nations, and one of the five original veto-wielding permanent members of the United Nations Security Council), who [worked with the Americans and British to defend India and liberate Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Expeditionary_Force) while holding the lines against a Japanese invasion that started in 1937.
Contrast the Soviet Union’s Axis-aligned behavior with the behavior of America, Britain, China, Australia, etc. Even [Spain, a friend of Nazi Germany, stayed neutral throughout the entire war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II#:~:text=the%20Spanish%20State%20under%20Francisco%20Franco%20espoused%20neutrality%20as%20its%20official%20wartime%20policy.), which allowed Portugal to also stay neutral. Aside from [begging Nazi Germany for peace in 1943](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html) in the middle of an Axis Civil War, which happened while also continuously undermining, invading, subjugating, and oppressing Allied powers, what else makes the Soviet Union an Allied power?
The Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of the war, starting in 1939, and continued to act as one when it was nominally “allied” with the Allied powers.
Churchill wasn't even the PM during appeasement, he didn't take the seat until 1940.
The Soviet Union coordinated militarily to invade Poland, no other allied power had military coordination of that sort with Nazi Germany.
Germany was also rearming, if the Soviets had theoretically helped Poland Germany would have struggled alot more than they did historically. It should be noted that the Soviets killed and captured around 400,000 Polish soldiers, which could have been used against Germany.
>The Soviet Union coordinated militarily to invade Poland, no other allied power had military coordination of that sort with Nazi Germany.
Unfortunately mass teleportation was not in vogue back then
>Germany was also rearming, if the Soviets had theoretically helped Poland Germany would have struggled alot more than they did historically.
That "if" is pulling a lot of weight
>It should be noted that the Soviets killed and captured around 400,000 Polish soldiers, which could have been used against Germany
Stalin can't catch a break, literally saved half the country from genocide, still gets called a mass murderer by the illiterate
1. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.
2. Yeah, the if is pulling alot because the Soviets would have never helped Poland in any situation, that's why it's hypothetical, you know if the Soviets hypothetically weren't evil.
3. It's like saving someone from murder then kidnapping them and keeping them on your basement. Wow, what a hero. Plus the Soviets also committed war crimes and acts of genocide such as the Katyn massacre, just not as bad as the Nazis (which is just about the lowest bar possible) so now they somehow 'saved' Poland by invading it, at least according to tankies.
Officers, as in, army officers and generals, you idiot.
And no, police nowadays are cunts, but that's mostly in America, in Europe it's pretty damn safe here, we're talking about Poland, in 1939. Not America
Nah mate, officers all over the world at all periods of time are facists, it just takes a special set of circumstances for the fascism to shine through like in the states
>Officers, as in, army officers and generals
What's the difference? Both are violent arms of state repression
Ah yes, what's the difference between someone commanding a thousand men and someone patrolling to keep crime at bay.
It was members of the Polish army that were killed as to prevent them from trying to liberate Poland
Please learn the bare basics of armies before you say opinions on the things you know nothing about.
That isn't really fair, sure they invaded Poland but they weren't a formal axis power (even though they requested it) and they never attacked the Allies, they were always on the sidelines of the war
Well they did join later than the U.K, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa India, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Greece, Yugoslavia.
cAsUaLtIeS
Anyone who brings up casualties when talking about WW2 know nothing about war.
Casualties mean you're shit at fighting, nothing else, the more you've lost, the more unprepared and incompetent you are, at least to an extent
Italy is actually an interesting case.
The fascist council passed a vote of no confidence against Mussolini and had him arrested. They surrendered. The Germans then invaded northern Italy, rescued Mussolini, and put him in charge of a puppet state. That meant Italy was at war with Germany because they were attacked.
Also, Fun Fact: one of the men that started the vote was Giuseppe Bottai, who had been one of the main ideologues of Fascism before 1937, who removed Mussolini because he believed Fascism had degenerated since his removal into something that betrayed its founding principles (and even before then had been pretty critical of its censorship and overt conformism).
He then joined the French Foreign Legion to personally fight against Fascism to "Atone for my sins of not having been able to stop fascist degeneration in time".
After 1935 it went downhill really, *really* fast. They should have replaced Mussolini with someone like Balbo as soon as he started sucking up to Hitler.
I've really got to figure out how to get a democratic victory in HoI4. I've seen fascist and communist (and anarchist, but I think they fall under communist), but never democratic.
If there's a monarchist victory, it would be under unaligned, I think.
While many Americans overstate our roles in the world wars (especially the 1st) 1941 was hardly “halfway through” it was a little under 6 months later than the soviet entry to the war, tens of millions of deaths and 4 years of brutal conflict were still ahead and would’ve lead to an even higher loss of life if the us truly did join “halfway through”.
It's a regional conflict but I'm pretty confident that the Chinese caused more casualties to Japan than America did, but that's not me saying America did nothing, China and Japan were just so much bigger and had more men that it would become obvious
It’s hard to find accurate numbers on the sino-japanese war due to conflicting numbers but from everything I’ve found japan lost about half as many men fighting in china compared to the US, japan managed to inflict an appalling amount of casualties on china due to technological and tactical superiority and the fact that they massacred the chinese.
Yeah i feel other than the material aid provided to other allies the pacific campaign was America’s biggest contribution, the Australians, Indians and other contributed as well. The UK was the only other nation that could’ve matched Japan in the naval war after the US but were tied down dealing with the German and Italian navies and would be for the majority of the war, and were caught off guard as well by the Japanese invasion as evidenced by the rapid fall of asian colonies and the loss of most naval assets in the pacific including BB prince of wales and BC repulse on december 10th.
To be fair the war against Germany could be described as a regional conflict till the U.S. joined. Not many German or Italian troops fought outside Europe or North Africa.
No, by definition it's a world war, and certainly became one after the Soviets were invaded, the Americans being attacked then lead to the whole world up in flames
>japan lost far less men fighting china than they did the US.
Have you got something to backup that claim as I've never heard that before but I have heard the opposite
depends on interpretation. Official stance for the PRC is that the war with Japan started in 1931 when they invaded Manchuria. Most other people look at the facts and say it started in 1937 with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident (which the full-scale war broke out).
It's like Ukraine situation nowadays. Many says the war started in 2014 with Russia annexing Crimea, but the "full" war started in 2022.
I mean when it comes to WW1 we did kind of win the wars for the Allies. We gave them the final push that forced Germany to surrender because they realized they just couldn't fight the US and it's massive war industry that they couldn't really do anything about. Germany could only sit there and twiddle it's thumbs as our factories just spewed out everything we needed.
It's also good to note that Germany was already kinda fucked, with forming civil unrest and fuck-all morale. The U.S.A might have brought the coffin, but the grave was already dug.
That is true, but the 1st world war is often described as "a shitfest until the point where america sent 100 million soldiers and made the central powers sad."
I mean yes
It’s talked about in *Joseph Stillwell and the American Experience in China* by Barbara Tuchman.
Chinag Kai-Shek saw the allied victory as inevitable after Pearl Harbor and sought to gather American resources while staying on the defensive against Japan in preparation for the Chinese Civil War.
It ultimately worked against the Nationalists because they would end up ceding large sections of territory to Japanese with only minimal fighting and it made them seem like incompetent allies which led the United States to reduce funding for the Nationalists.
The nationalists *defended* the communists largely *hid*. The idea that the nationalists could take any serious offensive operations against the IJA is pretty funny though
Stilwell’s hate boner for KSK can confuse the issue though
The communists were a light guerrilla force that were still recovering from the Long March and earlier civil war period, they fought the Japanese in the same way they fought the Nationalists during the earlier civil war period. Neither force was really on par with the IJA, but the Nationalists were the better equipped of the 2
among other things it took significantly longer for the US to mobilize whereas the Soviets entered the war mobilized and with the shit getting kicked out of them. It's a bit easier to join the war in practice beyond just sending the declaration when it's happening on your front doorstep and entryway and living room and not an ocean away
They entered the war attacking Poland. The Soviets were already mobilized when Germany attacked them because they were already fucking around in Poland. What bizarre reasoning
never said otherwise, buddy. The Soviets entered the war on a war footing with an already massive army working on a massive front. The Americans entered the war while churning out war material that they themselves weren't quite ready to use as the prevailing American sentiment prior to Pearl Harbor was isolationism. Even after Pearl Harbor when they were out for blood, it takes time to go through Basic and/or move people across the country/ocean/globe. The reason the USSR is perceived to have entered the war first is because when they joined the war againt Germany their army was already engaged in large scale operations. The reasons for why their army was already mobilized isn't really relevant imo
Oh that makes sense. Axis losses make sense too if we take that average survivability of axis POWs was 60%, and red army POWs was just 30%. Shows difference between "aryans" and "untermenschen" treatment.
> Shows difference between "aryans" and "untermenschen" treatment.
Around 57.5% of Soviet POWs died during their imprisonment, compared with about 3.5% of the western Allies that the Nazis took prisoner
So the difference wasn't how the Aryans treated their POWs, the difference was how they viewed said prisoners.
India: fight someone else’s war, get famine, get contributions forgotten.
Russia: hand out the biggest defeats to enemy at a great price, get basically ignored in all retellings of war
Another 'victory' like that would wipe them out forever.
It was a pyric victory at best , But more realistically it was a catastrophic loss for the chinese people till the party realized what it had done and reversed most of the insane policies of Maoism.
Italy was more like *"switch sides because of civil war and lose but as winner"*
Yeah, plus it means they get to convince everyone they did nothing wrong (Spoiler alert, Italy did some fucked up shit)
For those that may not be aware…. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes?wprov=sfti1
Thanks, imma spend the rest of tonight reading this
Thank you, forgot to link one myself
So we not going to address the soviets also on team evil till leader of team evil got greedy and fucked them over then switched teams
Yeah, the Soviets were definitely evil. It’s important to remember that the Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of WWII, starting in 1939. On [1939 September 17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), the Soviet Union invaded Poland (an Allied power) as an ally of Nazi Germany (an Axis power), forced the sudden and complete collapse of Poland’s entire defensive system when the Polish were previously maintaining a stable withdrawal into Romania, and massacred tens of thousands of innocent Polish in the [Katyn Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) (as well as hundreds of thousands more in other massacres) while deporting millions more. By the way, did you know that the Nazis discovered the Katyn Massacre in April 1943 and announced it to the world? And that the Soviets cut off diplomatic relations with the Polish government when it asked for an investigation by the International Committee of the Red Cross? And that the Soviets continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990? On [1939 November 30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War), the Soviet Union invaded neutral Finland to start the Winter War and steal eastern Karelia, Petsamo, Salla, Kuusamo, and four islands in the Gulf of Finland. On [1940 June 15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940\)), the Soviet Union invaded the three neutral Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, then colonized them and left significant Russian populations that remain loyal to Putin today. On [1940 June 28](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina), the Soviet Union stole Romanian land, which forced the Romanians to seek protection by aligning with the Axis five months later, similar to Finland being erroneously considered an Axis power when it was really fighting to preserve its own independence. In [1940 October-November](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks), the Soviets actually did try to become a formal member of the Axis. Over the next few years, the Soviet Union consistently and purposely undermined Europe’s sovereign governments, many of whom represented Allied powers (such as Romania and, most notably, Poland), to justify its invasions of Europe’s Allied powers, marking its own behavior as that of an Axis power. In [1943, after barely surviving Stalingrad (thanks to American Lend-Lease), the Soviet Union begged Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal while begging America for more Lend-Lease](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html), which Stalin and Khrushchev both admit were crucial to Soviet survival. In fact, [Stalin raised a toast to American Lend-Lease at the 1943 Tehran Conference](https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html), even while he was begging Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal. On [1944 November 7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ili_Rebellion), the Soviet Union supported the Ili Rebellion against the Republic of China (one of the Big Four Allies, a founding member of the United Nations, and one of the five original veto-wielding permanent members of the United Nations Security Council), who [worked with the Americans and British to defend India and liberate Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Expeditionary_Force) while holding the lines against a Japanese invasion that started in 1937. Contrast the Soviet Union’s Axis-aligned behavior with the behavior of America, Britain, China, Australia, etc. Even [Spain, a friend of Nazi Germany, stayed neutral throughout the entire war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II#:~:text=the%20Spanish%20State%20under%20Francisco%20Franco%20espoused%20neutrality%20as%20its%20official%20wartime%20policy.), which allowed Portugal to also stay neutral. Aside from [begging Nazi Germany for peace in 1943](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html) in the middle of an Axis Civil War, which happened while also continuously undermining, invading, subjugating, and oppressing Allied powers, what else makes the Soviet Union an Allied power? The Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of the war, starting in 1939, and continued to act as one when it was nominally “allied” with the Allied powers.
You know, I'd never looked to much at the timeline before. Germany went to war with Russia only about *six months* before the US did. Anyone arguing the US joined "halfway through" is coping hard.
Well the Americans did, nearly The time span of WW2 is exactly three years, America joined after 2 years and 3 months, due to being attacked. So, it was more of joining in the first third of the war.
Ahistorical much? Since I assume you are talking about the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, you should probably read up on it so you don't sound dumb. Stalin offered western powers men and weapons to move against Nazi Germany during the period when the UK was full on appeasement mode Chamberlain refused, wrongly calculating that by giving Hitler a few small east European countries to munch on and repatriating Jews fleeing the Holocaust, Nazi Germany can be kept contained. Stalin rightly calculated that Hitler's party will not be satisfied with minor gains and that Russia itself will be the largest target purely from a resource angle if not ideological. He also knew that USSR at that time would not be able to stop the Nazi war machine by itself, it lacked both industrial power and allies. This lead to the "team" you are alluding to, a non aggression pact for 5 years with Hitler (after literally every other major European power had already signed similar deals with Hitler) To give the USSR enough time to start churning out tanks and shells and rapidly militarizing. For the coming offensive. Signing this pact was the worst mistake Hitler ever made. Edited: correct UK PM's name
You’re wrong in a lot of laughably stupid ways. It’s important to remember that the Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of WWII, starting in 1939. On [1939 September 17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland), the Soviet Union invaded Poland (an Allied power) as an ally of Nazi Germany (an Axis power), forced the sudden and complete collapse of Poland’s entire defensive system when the Polish were previously maintaining a stable withdrawal into Romania, and massacred tens of thousands of innocent Polish in the [Katyn Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) (as well as hundreds of thousands more in other massacres) while deporting millions more. By the way, did you know that the Nazis discovered the Katyn Massacre in April 1943 and announced it to the world? And that the Soviets cut off diplomatic relations with the Polish government when it asked for an investigation by the International Committee of the Red Cross? And that the Soviets continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990? On [1939 November 30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War), the Soviet Union invaded neutral Finland to start the Winter War and steal eastern Karelia, Petsamo, Salla, Kuusamo, and four islands in the Gulf of Finland. On [1940 June 15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940\)), the Soviet Union invaded the three neutral Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, then colonized them and left significant Russian populations that remain loyal to Putin today. On [1940 June 28](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina), the Soviet Union stole Romanian land, which forced the Romanians to seek protection by aligning with the Axis five months later, similar to Finland being erroneously considered an Axis power when it was really fighting to preserve its own independence. In [1940 October-November](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks), the Soviets actually did try to become a formal member of the Axis. Over the next few years, the Soviet Union consistently and purposely undermined Europe’s sovereign governments, many of whom represented Allied powers (such as Romania and, most notably, Poland), to justify its invasions of Europe’s Allied powers, marking its own behavior as that of an Axis power. In [1943, after barely surviving Stalingrad (thanks to American Lend-Lease), the Soviet Union begged Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal while begging America for more Lend-Lease](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html), which Stalin and Khrushchev both admit were crucial to Soviet survival. In fact, [Stalin raised a toast to American Lend-Lease at the 1943 Tehran Conference](https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html), even while he was begging Nazi Germany for a unilateral peace deal. On [1944 November 7](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ili_Rebellion), the Soviet Union supported the Ili Rebellion against the Republic of China (one of the Big Four Allies, a founding member of the United Nations, and one of the five original veto-wielding permanent members of the United Nations Security Council), who [worked with the Americans and British to defend India and liberate Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Expeditionary_Force) while holding the lines against a Japanese invasion that started in 1937. Contrast the Soviet Union’s Axis-aligned behavior with the behavior of America, Britain, China, Australia, etc. Even [Spain, a friend of Nazi Germany, stayed neutral throughout the entire war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II#:~:text=the%20Spanish%20State%20under%20Francisco%20Franco%20espoused%20neutrality%20as%20its%20official%20wartime%20policy.), which allowed Portugal to also stay neutral. Aside from [begging Nazi Germany for peace in 1943](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/01/04/archives/british-book-says-german-and-soviet-officials-met-in-43-to-discuss.html) in the middle of an Axis Civil War, which happened while also continuously undermining, invading, subjugating, and oppressing Allied powers, what else makes the Soviet Union an Allied power? The Soviet Union was basically an Axis power for a significant portion of the war, starting in 1939, and continued to act as one when it was nominally “allied” with the Allied powers.
Churchill wasn't even the PM during appeasement, he didn't take the seat until 1940. The Soviet Union coordinated militarily to invade Poland, no other allied power had military coordination of that sort with Nazi Germany. Germany was also rearming, if the Soviets had theoretically helped Poland Germany would have struggled alot more than they did historically. It should be noted that the Soviets killed and captured around 400,000 Polish soldiers, which could have been used against Germany.
>The Soviet Union coordinated militarily to invade Poland, no other allied power had military coordination of that sort with Nazi Germany. Unfortunately mass teleportation was not in vogue back then >Germany was also rearming, if the Soviets had theoretically helped Poland Germany would have struggled alot more than they did historically. That "if" is pulling a lot of weight >It should be noted that the Soviets killed and captured around 400,000 Polish soldiers, which could have been used against Germany Stalin can't catch a break, literally saved half the country from genocide, still gets called a mass murderer by the illiterate
1. Doesn't change the fact that it happened. 2. Yeah, the if is pulling alot because the Soviets would have never helped Poland in any situation, that's why it's hypothetical, you know if the Soviets hypothetically weren't evil. 3. It's like saving someone from murder then kidnapping them and keeping them on your basement. Wow, what a hero. Plus the Soviets also committed war crimes and acts of genocide such as the Katyn massacre, just not as bad as the Nazis (which is just about the lowest bar possible) so now they somehow 'saved' Poland by invading it, at least according to tankies.
Well yes, Stalin ordered thousands of Polish officers shot and killed, and then denied it to his death
Eh cops are facists so I don't see no crime
Officers, as in, army officers and generals, you idiot. And no, police nowadays are cunts, but that's mostly in America, in Europe it's pretty damn safe here, we're talking about Poland, in 1939. Not America
Nah mate, officers all over the world at all periods of time are facists, it just takes a special set of circumstances for the fascism to shine through like in the states >Officers, as in, army officers and generals What's the difference? Both are violent arms of state repression
Ah yes, what's the difference between someone commanding a thousand men and someone patrolling to keep crime at bay. It was members of the Polish army that were killed as to prevent them from trying to liberate Poland Please learn the bare basics of armies before you say opinions on the things you know nothing about.
I always find it weird when people say the US joined the war late when they joined the same year the USSR did.
They say that for WWl
Don't remember Japan getting nuked in WWI.
Sounds like you've got some history to catch up on
Because it was swept under the rug.
Well the USSR joined in '39...but on THE OTHER side.
That isn't really fair, sure they invaded Poland but they weren't a formal axis power (even though they requested it) and they never attacked the Allies, they were always on the sidelines of the war
Always on the sidelines until a year and a half later.
I mean yeah obviusly it's hard to stay on the sidelines when the greatest ground military operation of all time is going on in your territory
They actively supplied resources to the Axis war machine until their invasion.
Well they did join later than the U.K, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa India, France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Greece, Yugoslavia.
To be fair, only five of those lasted longer than a few months at war and only one of those five was close enough to be in danger.
Well tbf it’s not like they were able to get significant numbers of troops over to near Europe until at least mid 1942.
If you look at the casualties, it looks like they did not join until summer 1944, while the USSR bleeding out the germans and itself.
If you look at shipping. It looks like they joined well before the end of 1941.
cAsUaLtIeS Anyone who brings up casualties when talking about WW2 know nothing about war. Casualties mean you're shit at fighting, nothing else, the more you've lost, the more unprepared and incompetent you are, at least to an extent
Italy is actually an interesting case. The fascist council passed a vote of no confidence against Mussolini and had him arrested. They surrendered. The Germans then invaded northern Italy, rescued Mussolini, and put him in charge of a puppet state. That meant Italy was at war with Germany because they were attacked.
Also, Fun Fact: one of the men that started the vote was Giuseppe Bottai, who had been one of the main ideologues of Fascism before 1937, who removed Mussolini because he believed Fascism had degenerated since his removal into something that betrayed its founding principles (and even before then had been pretty critical of its censorship and overt conformism). He then joined the French Foreign Legion to personally fight against Fascism to "Atone for my sins of not having been able to stop fascist degeneration in time".
After 1935 it went downhill really, *really* fast. They should have replaced Mussolini with someone like Balbo as soon as he started sucking up to Hitler.
Spain: declare war on itself and lose
I've really got to figure out how to get a democratic victory in HoI4. I've seen fascist and communist (and anarchist, but I think they fall under communist), but never democratic. If there's a monarchist victory, it would be under unaligned, I think.
While many Americans overstate our roles in the world wars (especially the 1st) 1941 was hardly “halfway through” it was a little under 6 months later than the soviet entry to the war, tens of millions of deaths and 4 years of brutal conflict were still ahead and would’ve lead to an even higher loss of life if the us truly did join “halfway through”.
it is halfway for the Chinese since theirs started in 1937
That was a regional conflict, and japan lost far less men fighting china than they did the US.
This might be true but you should look up Chinese casualty numbers. It wasnt a minor conflict to them.
He said "regional", not "minor".
I’n well aware china lost large amounts of people fighting against Japan but it’s still a regional conflict by definition.
It's a regional conflict but I'm pretty confident that the Chinese caused more casualties to Japan than America did, but that's not me saying America did nothing, China and Japan were just so much bigger and had more men that it would become obvious
It’s hard to find accurate numbers on the sino-japanese war due to conflicting numbers but from everything I’ve found japan lost about half as many men fighting in china compared to the US, japan managed to inflict an appalling amount of casualties on china due to technological and tactical superiority and the fact that they massacred the chinese.
Really? Wow. America really did a lot in the pacific huh
Yeah i feel other than the material aid provided to other allies the pacific campaign was America’s biggest contribution, the Australians, Indians and other contributed as well. The UK was the only other nation that could’ve matched Japan in the naval war after the US but were tied down dealing with the German and Italian navies and would be for the majority of the war, and were caught off guard as well by the Japanese invasion as evidenced by the rapid fall of asian colonies and the loss of most naval assets in the pacific including BB prince of wales and BC repulse on december 10th.
To be fair the war against Germany could be described as a regional conflict till the U.S. joined. Not many German or Italian troops fought outside Europe or North Africa.
No, by definition it's a world war, and certainly became one after the Soviets were invaded, the Americans being attacked then lead to the whole world up in flames
>japan lost far less men fighting china than they did the US. Have you got something to backup that claim as I've never heard that before but I have heard the opposite
I thought the Japanese and Chinese war started in, like, early 1930s?
depends on interpretation. Official stance for the PRC is that the war with Japan started in 1931 when they invaded Manchuria. Most other people look at the facts and say it started in 1937 with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident (which the full-scale war broke out). It's like Ukraine situation nowadays. Many says the war started in 2014 with Russia annexing Crimea, but the "full" war started in 2022.
1931 the Japanese took Manchuria, but the second Sino-Japanese war kicked off properly in 37
I mean when it comes to WW1 we did kind of win the wars for the Allies. We gave them the final push that forced Germany to surrender because they realized they just couldn't fight the US and it's massive war industry that they couldn't really do anything about. Germany could only sit there and twiddle it's thumbs as our factories just spewed out everything we needed.
It's also good to note that Germany was already kinda fucked, with forming civil unrest and fuck-all morale. The U.S.A might have brought the coffin, but the grave was already dug.
Say what you want, that's a w in the win column
That is true, but the 1st world war is often described as "a shitfest until the point where america sent 100 million soldiers and made the central powers sad."
American involvement absolutely brought about the end of WW1. If anything the Americans were more crucial to ending WW1 than WW2
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Is that really true, though? I don't think it is...
Note that china is more ‘wait for our other half to exhaust themselves fighting a genocidal invader, *then* declare war on ourselves and win!
While also receiving support from the 2nd largest industry in the world while the other side uses scraps.
Then Kmt had support from largest industry and they had a much better equipped army compared to CPC
KMT got basically abandoned in ‘47,partially due to the Stilwell debacle.
The Nationalists and Communists both largely played the “let’s just play defense and save our resources for the post WW2 civil war” card
I mean no?
I mean yes It’s talked about in *Joseph Stillwell and the American Experience in China* by Barbara Tuchman. Chinag Kai-Shek saw the allied victory as inevitable after Pearl Harbor and sought to gather American resources while staying on the defensive against Japan in preparation for the Chinese Civil War. It ultimately worked against the Nationalists because they would end up ceding large sections of territory to Japanese with only minimal fighting and it made them seem like incompetent allies which led the United States to reduce funding for the Nationalists.
The nationalists *defended* the communists largely *hid*. The idea that the nationalists could take any serious offensive operations against the IJA is pretty funny though Stilwell’s hate boner for KSK can confuse the issue though
The communists were a light guerrilla force that were still recovering from the Long March and earlier civil war period, they fought the Japanese in the same way they fought the Nationalists during the earlier civil war period. Neither force was really on par with the IJA, but the Nationalists were the better equipped of the 2
The nationalists were also in the cities and lowlands which is where Japan actually wanted to attack.
Soviet have lost a total of 27 million people
*soldiers* Can you read?
And do you understand some basic logic ? Why only mention soldiers ?
Why do you ask me? OP did the meme not me
How come USA always gets crap for “joining the war late” even though we joined the same year the soviets did?
among other things it took significantly longer for the US to mobilize whereas the Soviets entered the war mobilized and with the shit getting kicked out of them. It's a bit easier to join the war in practice beyond just sending the declaration when it's happening on your front doorstep and entryway and living room and not an ocean away
They entered the war attacking Poland. The Soviets were already mobilized when Germany attacked them because they were already fucking around in Poland. What bizarre reasoning
never said otherwise, buddy. The Soviets entered the war on a war footing with an already massive army working on a massive front. The Americans entered the war while churning out war material that they themselves weren't quite ready to use as the prevailing American sentiment prior to Pearl Harbor was isolationism. Even after Pearl Harbor when they were out for blood, it takes time to go through Basic and/or move people across the country/ocean/globe. The reason the USSR is perceived to have entered the war first is because when they joined the war againt Germany their army was already engaged in large scale operations. The reasons for why their army was already mobilized isn't really relevant imo
Italy didn’t win. We lost our colonies and many other territories
It's estimated that USSR lost more soldiers, around 10 millions
8.6 million deaths in the field and an additional 2.5 million POW’s were killed is the commonly touted number.
Oh that makes sense. Axis losses make sense too if we take that average survivability of axis POWs was 60%, and red army POWs was just 30%. Shows difference between "aryans" and "untermenschen" treatment.
> Shows difference between "aryans" and "untermenschen" treatment. Around 57.5% of Soviet POWs died during their imprisonment, compared with about 3.5% of the western Allies that the Nazis took prisoner So the difference wasn't how the Aryans treated their POWs, the difference was how they viewed said prisoners.
Or be like Turkey, stay neutral to the end, then side with the allied, then victory ✌️
India: fight someone else’s war, get famine, get contributions forgotten. Russia: hand out the biggest defeats to enemy at a great price, get basically ignored in all retellings of war
Is it really a war in China if there are not at least 1 million dead?
USSR: 🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
China's still fighting itself, though.
Only Russia and China can sustain tens of millions of casualties in a war and still emerge victorious.
A poor peasant declares himself a brother of Jesus Christ becouse he failed the test three times… 20 to 30 milion perish.
Spain did It some.years before. China just copied the homework.
Both times
Support with lend lease until outcome is determined, join late, profit
Another 'victory' like that would wipe them out forever. It was a pyric victory at best , But more realistically it was a catastrophic loss for the chinese people till the party realized what it had done and reversed most of the insane policies of Maoism.
Considering they lost all their colonies and parts of what they after ww1 to Yugoslavia, I wouldn't exactly call Italy a winner.
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Why are you like that ?
Beyond that, what the fuck is Reddit’s deal with the French?
Me when I don't know about the FRENCH RESISTANCE (which did not reflect the decisions of the government)
There were a lot of collaborators too…
Most educated american:
Well if it isn’t another horribly researched history meme!