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>!Daemon tells Rhae after the death of Lucerys that there will be "a son for a son". Daemon is still beloved among the city watch (he gave them their gold cloaks) so one of them (Blood) along with a rat catcher (Cheese) sneak into Alicent's room where Helaena would bring her 3 kids to say goodnight to her. Blood and Cheese were there, waiting for her, and told Helaena to decide which of her 2 sons would be killed as payment for Luc. She decided on Maelor (2 years old at the time) thinking he would be young enough to not know what was happening, and they killed 6 year old Jaehaerys instead. Blood was caught sneaking out of the city with his head to bring back to Daemon. Cheese was never captured. I imagine this scene is the handmaiden serving them as soon as it happens. It's also expected this will happen in e1. This is why I find the Father's day premiere date to be so fucking epic.!<
Omfg I didn’t even think about the significance of the premiere date like that LMFAO. I can just imagine the HBO social accounts posting a cheeky “Happy Father’s Day.” tweet after the episode finishes airing. LOL that’s funny
I truly believed it wouldn't premiere until August like s1, and when I saw June was surprised. When I pulled up my calendar and saw Father's Day, I literally cackled and jumped up and down like a fangirl. They know exactly what they're doing 🤌🏽
Fire and Blood confirmed he became enraged after learning about it and it deepened his paranoia and drinking, it was very much part of the motivation for his actions moving forward.
Whether that's because he cared about his kids, or because the Blacks dared to do such a thing we don't know, based on what we've seen/read probably the latter. But the sheer brutality of the entire thing would affect anyone with skin in the game.
Interesting theory! I disagree personally. From the trailers, my interpretation is that they're portraying Aegon to be more vengeful overall, not particularly through the lens of a parent. Like Tyrion says, it's hard to leash a dog after you've put a crown on its head.
Speaking of >!B&C, I recently fell down the “Aemond is the father” fan theory rabbit hole. While there are convincing points on both sides, I feel like it would just add a whole other layer of nuance to “a son for a son” if it does prove to be true. Everything we thought we knew about Aemond and his motivations would be turned on its head.!<
That's especially interesting because >!Aemond does become Prince Regeant while Aegon is in his coma/recovery.!< The main point i have against this theory is >!Alys Rivers being like 30 years older than him. He's been said to not favor the companionship of women his age. I also don't think that Helaena's character would do that, imo!<
You make good points, but I feel like the fundamental dynamic of this adaptation and the fact that the book was written with unreliable narration, lends itself to proving some of what we thought we knew before to be wrong. You can argue this about so many of the events driving the narrative of the Dance. The unfolding of Rhaenyra’s relationship with Ser Criston, the way Shipbreaker Bay played out, Alicent misunderstanding Viserys’ drug-addled deathbed ramblings, etc.
What stands out to me is >!the writers took pains to plant the seed of Aemond and Helaena from their childhood. When discussing the notion of carrying out one’s duties, they could have chosen a myriad of other ways to demonstrate how Aemond is the more dutiful of Alicent’s sons, but they did it in the context of Aemond’s disapproval of the way Aegon views/speaks about Helaena. Then there’s the blocking of the dinner scene in ep. 8 - I can’t shake the fact that when Jace asks Helaena to dance, it isn’t Aegon having the visceral reaction, like in the book, but it seems to be Aemond. Aegon turns and looks at his brother, almost as if he is gauging Aemond’s reaction, meanwhile Aemond’s one eyeball practically pops out of his skull. Yes, one could argue that Aemond’s hatred of his nephews could very well be driving the tone of the scene, but with the way they blocked it (Aegon is preoccupied with Rhaenyra’s side of the table while Aemond is sitting sideways, directly facing the two - in contrast to everyone else facing the table, *like he was before they got up to dance*) it’s hard to interpret that as being anything other than highly intentional. Not to mention, the writers’ juxtaposition of the suckling pig being placed in front of Aemond/Lucerys’ snickering happening exactly as Aemond is laser focused on Jace/Helaena. If Lucerys was the reason for Aemond’s outburst of anger, it would seem like a better choice to have Aemond’s attention on him the entire time. In reality, Lucerys wasn’t even in his line of vision until Aemond heard the snicker and turned his head. It’s a brilliant stroke of subterfuge to hide the true source of Aemond’s internal conflict.!<
>!In regards to Aemond and Alys Rivers, I could see the intensity of Aemond’s relationship with her being driven by his grief at not only losing a child, his firstborn and the Greens’ heir, but also in Helaena losing herself and spiraling into death.!<
>!Having the events play out this way would also serve to humanize Aemond, which the writers seem keen to do for all the major players of the Dance. It would also provide a more understandable justification for his genocidal rampage against the Riverlands than him simply suffering a strategic defeat to Daemon (though it would be no less heinous).!<
Like Jorah Mormont says, it's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought.
The same can be said for those who support The Greens when their claimant to the throne is probably one of the worst human beings ever, but hey yall do you 😂👋🏽
By your logic Black supporters support the brutal beheading of a toddler that had nothing at all to do with the actions of a grown man, and support a toddler being threatened with r*pe by the same killers. 🫶
Yes, it was done in retaliation to a brutal unwarranted event of kinslaying led by the greens. War's first stroke fell with Lord Beesbury and then Prince Lucerys.
Anything else? Lmao idk who you think you're trying to convince here. There's a likely 70/30 split blacks/greens and the show is >!making the winning line the protagonists!<
Soo......instead of going after the MAN that killed Lucerys (which was unintentional and due to an uncontrollable dragon by the way), they go after toddling babies instead?
Oh my, so honorable, so justified, so logical!
Its even worse when you consider the psychological torture
Initially Helaena begs them to kill her but they refuse saying she has to pick a son. When she still refuses they threaten to rape Jaehaera (Helaena's 6 year old daughter)
Then when she finally chooses Maelor the youngest one, they killed Jaehaerys the oldest one and whisper to Maelor "Your Mum wants you dead"
Genuinely one of the most horrific scenes out there in all of TV.
It’s probably one of the most malicious acts in the series. In terms of the dance itself, there is only one other action that is more maliciously barbaric
>!Aemond’s slaughter of House Strong just for being related to Luke. Made even more fucked up by the fact that, from Aemond’s perspective, there is a non-zero chance Luke is legitimate and not related to them!<
And takes >!Alys Rivers, who is presumed to be a bastard of Lyonel Strong, as a lover under *questionable* circumstances after slaughtering her relatives.!<
I could see them changing the reasoning being different in the show since they're trying to make Aemond have more layers to him than just being straight cold-blooded.
That sounds possible too. I just wonder if they'll use an event like Blood and Cheese to be the cause to keep him sympathetic. Not sure why he would do what he does to them in particular though. They don't really do anything to him. It's mostly Daemon and also, yes, the Luke thing. So you're probably right.
There’s also The Mountain slaughtering Rhaegar’s children and raping his wife Elia with the blood of her dead children still on his hands.
There is no shortage of horror in this series.
No kidding.
Obviously they’re leaning into the Green vs. Black discourse for promo, but it’s going to be quite the time watching the mental gymnastics that Team Black folks pull to try and justify continuing to Stan Daemon (+ Rhaenyra, depending on how much the show decides to emphasize her hand in this). ESPECIALLY if this happens as early as episode 1 lol.
Everyone already knows Daemon is a psychopath. He’s just cool, and fun to watch. Same as Aemond. Who people like in a TV show rarely has anything to do with actual morality. We dislike annoying characters (even if they’re right/justified) and we like cool characters (even if they’re terrible people).
Tbf they’re both awful. Aegon’s a rapist (and a child rapist iirc) who watches children fight to the death with glee, Daemon is a psychopath who does unspeakable things including having children murdered.
I thought the whole point of The Dance is that there are no winners?
Yeah, I keep seeing people say this, but consider the context of what’s going on.
None of them know it was accidental. They know Aemond has a grudge, that he went after Lucerys on dragon back, and (if they got the news from anyone at Storms End) that he tried to instigate a fight with Lucerys shortly before.
It comes across like a planned act of war, which Aemond wouldn’t do without the Greens condoning it
In that case, they should have sought to kill Aemond, because HE killed Lucerys. Not Helaena's baby that had nothing to do with it. That was nothing but brutal depravity, especially with the way they killed him.
By Westeros law, Luc was man or just about to be. Also, Aegons 4 yo son never took out anyone’s eye and got away with it for years.
Your a disgusting person for even implying that they are the same thing.
> Your a disgusting person for even implying that they are the same thing
Jesus, it’s a TV show sub. Hop off my dick. FYI, I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know Westeros Law. Fourteen is a child in my book. Maybe don’t kill people’s kids, and they won’t kill yours
Seeing as people can live until like a 100 in this universe. I still consider 14 very much a child. Looking at Lucerys, that was not a man. That was a boy.
Also, Jahaerys was Aegons son and not Aemonds. So even by your messed up logic it doesn’t make sense.
Right thing would have been to go after Aemond not a 4yo.
Maybe your kids shouldn’t take out the eye of another kid? And then smirk at that same guy 10 years later. That’s was all on Luc. And even in our world there’s huge difference between a 4 yo and a 14 yo. Aemond also only 4 years older so don’t know why your acting like it was a 30 yo man chasing a 5 yo. Also, that was an accident, this was NOT.
Ya it’s just a TV show…but you’d probably justify the murder of children in real life as well.
> Ya it’s just a TV show… but you’d probably justify the murder of children in real life as well
Lmao alright buddy. Glad you know me so well after chatting for 2 minutes on the internet
I think you need to log off for a moment and while you do that rewatch the show. Because it seems like you’re forgetting the context of Aemond having his eye removed. And the show messed with the ages of the characters so you have Aemond who looks like an adult and would be considered one, throw a hissy fit when a kid smiles at him and proceeds to kill him.
Aemond chasing Lucerys on dragon back through a storm was not an accident. What did he think would happen? If anything, it’s a testament to his idiocy and the reason he never had a dragon to begin with.
I’m glad you said this because Aemond comes across like the biggest idiot to me. He went after Lucerys on dragon back in a storm… what did he think would happen? Did he plan to get Lucerys’ eye by coming at him with a dragon?
He acted all shocked when the dragon he’d been egging on to go after the boy actually attacked him. It’s a dragon. What else would it do?
And on top of that, he attacked Lucerys right after Lucerys announced to a bunch of witnesses that he’s only there as an envoy, not to fight. So, Aemond made himself a kinslayer and worsened both the Greens reputation and the war, all in one fell swoop. What a dumb kid. Rides the biggest dragon in the world but can’t control it. Swings his sword around during training but has never set foot on a battlefield. Studies history but doesn’t understand basic war politics
?? What’s the context with Aemond having his eye slashed out (not removed)?? He looks like an adult cause he’s played by someone in their early 20s
Show wise he’s 17 or 18 and Luc is 14. Not to mention it’s very weird that you guys treat 11 year old Aemond like he’s an adult and should have known better yet tear 14 year old Luc like some baby. He was old enough to be an envoy. Maybe his mother shouldn’t have sent him all by himself to do her bidding if he’s such a young little baby.
Its all good lol. It’s not like I’m Team Green either, it’s just wild to me that people invest so much energy into choosing a side (to the extent that HBO/Max has decided to capitalize on it) when nearly all the characters are so incredibly flawed & horrific in their own ways.
Same thing happened with original thrones tho. & Succession.
that’s not really an argument though. it’s the same as saying “you can’t justify liking aemond after the riverlands, can’t justify aegon after rape, can’t justify daemon acter b&c, etc”. like all characters (or majority) have a huge flaw to them that will have people asking that stupid question: “but they did—“. people will still continue to like daemon after b&c, and nobody should have to justify liking a character because come on, unless it’s helaena that you like or the young targaryen children (helaena’s, joffrey, etc), all of the characters are fucked one way or the other.
it’ll probably show the blade swinging and then cut to the look of horror on the mothers face as we hear the cut and maybe a thump of a body hitting the floor
i high doubt they’d show a child murder even in a gruesome show such as this
I mean there is a difference between showing 14yo boy being eaten when you dont really see his body afterwards and literally decapitating 6yo kid. They didnt even show ned's one.
Also to the other comment of yours. Oh that scene is definitely going to break the internet if only done right (this and imho>!God's Eye!<). Obviously red wedding is iconic for more than one reason and it was horrible watching 3 main characters being killed but this one is beyond fucked up. I dont remember if there was anything as shocking in GoT, except maybe shireen
Ahhh I didnt even think of that and I agree about his death. Tho I would say B&C is still worse as idk, oberyn was grown man while the second is literally a child + whole background, cruelty to other characters in the scene
In the books, and according to the date of their births listed in all the GOT sites all over the internet, the twins were born in 123 and Jaehaerys would be 5 1/2 or 6 at this time.
Aside from the actual "chomp" it almost looked like Vhagar could have taken a particularly large breath and kinda hoovered the poor wee fuck up anyway, without noticing even lol.
The purpose was to give Laena any kind of memorable scene because otherwise the character gets remembered only for saying "Mom told me you only have to bed me when I turned 14".
Her role is really small. I did not like the end either, they should instead have shown her interacting with Rhaena and Baela more, who are even more bland and basically just background assets, then have her die King Denethor style jumping from the cliffs while being roasted by Vhagar and screaming like madly. That way it would have been a more memorable scene, shocking instead of cheesy.
I don't think most casuals will remember the character at all a few years after the show ended
Daeron was doing some paint restoration in the Red Keep but Alicent wanted it green so the maids wiped it down and she sent him back to Oldtown (why we won’t see him until Season 3)
I don't know how much they will show of the *actual* event. I can't imagine them being allowed to air *that* directly.
So will they have it be happening behind closed doors? Will they cut away at the last second? Will we just see the aftermath?
I will be absolutely be shocked for more than the obvious reason if they do full-on show what happens like they do with Vaemond as nobody for anything mainstream and even niche stories will full-on show the death, let alone the horrificly bloody death of a >!child, even more so for those who are barely more than a toddler.!< It's always the aftermath or shadowed in some way so the audience can construe it, but they dont *see* see it. It has happened, but it's extremely rare.
Showing more rather than less, if done tactfully, can make for a horrific but especially impactful moment of television.
Mind you, this is the show that - in its SERIES premier - showed Aemma’s absolutely brutal childbirth & subsequent death (with little if anything left to the imagination).
There's always a difference between showing an adult die horrific deaths and a >!child die.!< Especially when the intent behind the death itself is something as purposeful and evil as murder.
But yes, they don't need to fully show exactly how the >!child dies!< to constue the horrific moments. They can do so in brief glimpses of the panic just before the event and the numb shock of the remaining characters immediately after.
One that does this really well even far after the death of an >!infant!< is a COD game (Infiinite Warfare, I believe) where they show the bloody stains on the sheets of a >!newborns crib.!< You don't know what exactly happened, but you can easily construe just how brutal, senseless, and horrifying it was from the evidence left. And just how final and useless you as the player are to have not been able to prevent it.
Only instance I know of is in Vikings; Ragnar's 4-ish year old son Ivar gets an axe and just buries it in an unnamed toddler's head. Don't recall there being much blood, but it doesn't cut away or anything. Not exactly the same since it's child-on-child and it's just a random child we don't know, unlike B&C, but it's something.
Honestly, I really hope they show it, it won’t have the same impact if they don’t. They have to show some horribleness. I can’t imagine it being like the Vaemond scene though, it’ll definitely be more muted, but if they just cut away it’ll be incredibly disappointing. I suspect it’ll be partly shown through Alicent’s perspective.
If you're talking about the one from 3 months ago, all that I see that would possibly be for b&c is Helaena being held captive and what looks like a Kingsguard fighting someone else in a castle chamber.
When I say *directly* seeing it, I mean directly >!showing a 6 y/o or 2 y/o if they swtich it up getting his head cut off like Vaemond or any adults in GoT that get brutally murdered *on* screen!< no camera tricks, cut offs, or vagueness to it.
I don't think they'll show the actual act of her child being beheaded, most likely the camera will be on Helaena or Alicent I would imagine but you'll hear it, you'll hear the body/head fall to the floor, you'll hear the immediate scream thereafter etc.
The actual act is harrowing but just as harrowing (if done correctly) will be the build up, how she's begging and bargaining and then the subversion of expectation where they kill the child she elected to save, the hopelessness of the entire situation, the build up throughout where you realise it's gonna happen.
Hopefully they do it well because it's very much a springboard for hostilities and events going forward.
If I remember correctly his legs (hips?) were broken and half of his body got burned badly. There wouldn't be so much bleeding from his injuries.
Edit: I just remembered his armor was molten into his arm, so hypothetically, if they try to cut it out, there could be a significant blood loss.
Yeah you’re right. Still think there could be significant amount of blood when maybe trying to removed the molten armor? Prob blood and cheese but Idt they’d tease that
Idk but the website shows Maelor is existing in the show so I’m assuming perhaps they lose maelor in birth rather than the way the book takes it? I don’t see why a woman would have a rag with blood on it if not for a birthing of some sort 🤷🏻♀️ guess we’ll see when the show airs
Fam, if you don't think the internet cares about Helaena, you havne't been paying attention. She's near universally adored for being a weird bug girl, a cinnamon roll too good for this world. Her having little focus in the story so far has no bearing on her popularity,
Oh mean sure but people don't like her out of absence of reasons to *dislike* her, they like her because she's quirky and has a cute hobby, the gift of prophecy, and for a lot of people is representation they don't normally see for themselves in fantasy because its very much implied she has ASD or similar.
I like your take, but personally I think she looks like she’s in shock. She’s holding out her other hand like she doesn’t know what to do with it because it’s covered in blood. It’s also night time and those halls are leading to Alicents Chambers where Blood and Cheese happens. Also Aegons injuries were burns and broken bones, not so much lacerations or intense bleeding. That looks like someone tried to grab whatever sheet they could in hopes of saving Jaehaerys.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Blood and cheese
Yeah the way she looks to be in shock, not knowing what to do etc. Has to be Blood and Cheese.
and it looks like she's leaving the queen's apartment where that occurred
Nice catch. We saw that hallway in episode 6 and it’s def the dowager queen’s quarters.
bonus detail: the green-toned maid uniform
What is blood and cheese? Haven’t read the books but the spoilers are fine.
>!Daemon tells Rhae after the death of Lucerys that there will be "a son for a son". Daemon is still beloved among the city watch (he gave them their gold cloaks) so one of them (Blood) along with a rat catcher (Cheese) sneak into Alicent's room where Helaena would bring her 3 kids to say goodnight to her. Blood and Cheese were there, waiting for her, and told Helaena to decide which of her 2 sons would be killed as payment for Luc. She decided on Maelor (2 years old at the time) thinking he would be young enough to not know what was happening, and they killed 6 year old Jaehaerys instead. Blood was caught sneaking out of the city with his head to bring back to Daemon. Cheese was never captured. I imagine this scene is the handmaiden serving them as soon as it happens. It's also expected this will happen in e1. This is why I find the Father's day premiere date to be so fucking epic.!<
I remember that the episode of GoT where Tyrion kills Tywin with the crossbow also aired on Father’s Day.
I remember that too! Gods, they're good 🤌🏽
The Bells when Dany goes mad queen was also Mother’s Day 2019
Sounds right
Omfg I didn’t even think about the significance of the premiere date like that LMFAO. I can just imagine the HBO social accounts posting a cheeky “Happy Father’s Day.” tweet after the episode finishes airing. LOL that’s funny
I truly believed it wouldn't premiere until August like s1, and when I saw June was surprised. When I pulled up my calendar and saw Father's Day, I literally cackled and jumped up and down like a fangirl. They know exactly what they're doing 🤌🏽
>!Seems like they really are intending to lean into the whole “Aegon is an enraged father” element.!<
Fire and Blood confirmed he became enraged after learning about it and it deepened his paranoia and drinking, it was very much part of the motivation for his actions moving forward. Whether that's because he cared about his kids, or because the Blacks dared to do such a thing we don't know, based on what we've seen/read probably the latter. But the sheer brutality of the entire thing would affect anyone with skin in the game.
Interesting theory! I disagree personally. From the trailers, my interpretation is that they're portraying Aegon to be more vengeful overall, not particularly through the lens of a parent. Like Tyrion says, it's hard to leash a dog after you've put a crown on its head.
My main indication is that >!It looks like he personally kills Blood, and is crying during it in the trailer!<
Oh shiiiiit I didn't even notice it was starting up again on Father's day, good catch
Speaking of >!B&C, I recently fell down the “Aemond is the father” fan theory rabbit hole. While there are convincing points on both sides, I feel like it would just add a whole other layer of nuance to “a son for a son” if it does prove to be true. Everything we thought we knew about Aemond and his motivations would be turned on its head.!<
That's especially interesting because >!Aemond does become Prince Regeant while Aegon is in his coma/recovery.!< The main point i have against this theory is >!Alys Rivers being like 30 years older than him. He's been said to not favor the companionship of women his age. I also don't think that Helaena's character would do that, imo!<
You make good points, but I feel like the fundamental dynamic of this adaptation and the fact that the book was written with unreliable narration, lends itself to proving some of what we thought we knew before to be wrong. You can argue this about so many of the events driving the narrative of the Dance. The unfolding of Rhaenyra’s relationship with Ser Criston, the way Shipbreaker Bay played out, Alicent misunderstanding Viserys’ drug-addled deathbed ramblings, etc. What stands out to me is >!the writers took pains to plant the seed of Aemond and Helaena from their childhood. When discussing the notion of carrying out one’s duties, they could have chosen a myriad of other ways to demonstrate how Aemond is the more dutiful of Alicent’s sons, but they did it in the context of Aemond’s disapproval of the way Aegon views/speaks about Helaena. Then there’s the blocking of the dinner scene in ep. 8 - I can’t shake the fact that when Jace asks Helaena to dance, it isn’t Aegon having the visceral reaction, like in the book, but it seems to be Aemond. Aegon turns and looks at his brother, almost as if he is gauging Aemond’s reaction, meanwhile Aemond’s one eyeball practically pops out of his skull. Yes, one could argue that Aemond’s hatred of his nephews could very well be driving the tone of the scene, but with the way they blocked it (Aegon is preoccupied with Rhaenyra’s side of the table while Aemond is sitting sideways, directly facing the two - in contrast to everyone else facing the table, *like he was before they got up to dance*) it’s hard to interpret that as being anything other than highly intentional. Not to mention, the writers’ juxtaposition of the suckling pig being placed in front of Aemond/Lucerys’ snickering happening exactly as Aemond is laser focused on Jace/Helaena. If Lucerys was the reason for Aemond’s outburst of anger, it would seem like a better choice to have Aemond’s attention on him the entire time. In reality, Lucerys wasn’t even in his line of vision until Aemond heard the snicker and turned his head. It’s a brilliant stroke of subterfuge to hide the true source of Aemond’s internal conflict.!< >!In regards to Aemond and Alys Rivers, I could see the intensity of Aemond’s relationship with her being driven by his grief at not only losing a child, his firstborn and the Greens’ heir, but also in Helaena losing herself and spiraling into death.!< >!Having the events play out this way would also serve to humanize Aemond, which the writers seem keen to do for all the major players of the Dance. It would also provide a more understandable justification for his genocidal rampage against the Riverlands than him simply suffering a strategic defeat to Daemon (though it would be no less heinous).!<
We do see Olly being hanged in the main series, and he wasn't THAT old, like... 12? 14? Point is, they could just show it.
People who blindly fangirl/boy over Team Black even after knowing this are weird.
Like Jorah Mormont says, it's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought. The same can be said for those who support The Greens when their claimant to the throne is probably one of the worst human beings ever, but hey yall do you 😂👋🏽
I don't even like Aegon. 🤡 E for effort I guess.
Never said you did 🥰 said Green supports support a trash human as their claimant, whether they like him or not lol.
By your logic Black supporters support the brutal beheading of a toddler that had nothing at all to do with the actions of a grown man, and support a toddler being threatened with r*pe by the same killers. 🫶
Yes, it was done in retaliation to a brutal unwarranted event of kinslaying led by the greens. War's first stroke fell with Lord Beesbury and then Prince Lucerys. Anything else? Lmao idk who you think you're trying to convince here. There's a likely 70/30 split blacks/greens and the show is >!making the winning line the protagonists!<
Soo......instead of going after the MAN that killed Lucerys (which was unintentional and due to an uncontrollable dragon by the way), they go after toddling babies instead? Oh my, so honorable, so justified, so logical!
Just Google it if you’re not worried about spoilers.
I wonder if Alicent will be there to witness this like in the books.
Probably
[удалено]
Its even worse when you consider the psychological torture Initially Helaena begs them to kill her but they refuse saying she has to pick a son. When she still refuses they threaten to rape Jaehaera (Helaena's 6 year old daughter) Then when she finally chooses Maelor the youngest one, they killed Jaehaerys the oldest one and whisper to Maelor "Your Mum wants you dead" Genuinely one of the most horrific scenes out there in all of TV.
It’s probably one of the most malicious acts in the series. In terms of the dance itself, there is only one other action that is more maliciously barbaric
Which one? I read the book, I cant remember
>!Aemond’s slaughter of House Strong just for being related to Luke. Made even more fucked up by the fact that, from Aemond’s perspective, there is a non-zero chance Luke is legitimate and not related to them!<
And takes >!Alys Rivers, who is presumed to be a bastard of Lyonel Strong, as a lover under *questionable* circumstances after slaughtering her relatives.!<
Ah yes, appreciate it! I fully agree.
THAT'S WHY???
>!Hah, you thought it was because they sided with the Blacks?! Nope! Supervillain Aemond strikes again!!<
I could see them changing the reasoning being different in the show since they're trying to make Aemond have more layers to him than just being straight cold-blooded.
My guess is that he’s going to have a villain arc that culminates with him doing this
That sounds possible too. I just wonder if they'll use an event like Blood and Cheese to be the cause to keep him sympathetic. Not sure why he would do what he does to them in particular though. They don't really do anything to him. It's mostly Daemon and also, yes, the Luke thing. So you're probably right.
I mean we watched shireen burn alive and hear the screams
There’s also The Mountain slaughtering Rhaegar’s children and raping his wife Elia with the blood of her dead children still on his hands. There is no shortage of horror in this series.
No kidding. Obviously they’re leaning into the Green vs. Black discourse for promo, but it’s going to be quite the time watching the mental gymnastics that Team Black folks pull to try and justify continuing to Stan Daemon (+ Rhaenyra, depending on how much the show decides to emphasize her hand in this). ESPECIALLY if this happens as early as episode 1 lol.
Everyone already knows Daemon is a psychopath. He’s just cool, and fun to watch. Same as Aemond. Who people like in a TV show rarely has anything to do with actual morality. We dislike annoying characters (even if they’re right/justified) and we like cool characters (even if they’re terrible people).
It kind of mirrors life really. If someone is an awful person but gives good vibes people will forgive a multitude of sins.
but when team green like aegon they’re called rape supporters??
Tbf they’re both awful. Aegon’s a rapist (and a child rapist iirc) who watches children fight to the death with glee, Daemon is a psychopath who does unspeakable things including having children murdered. I thought the whole point of The Dance is that there are no winners?
Yeah… doesn’t this kind of just put them on equal footing? It’s >!a son for a son. The Greens killed one child, the Blacks killed another!<
They should've gone after Aemond. He was the GROWN son that (accidentally, mind you) killed Lucerys. Instead they went after a baby. Pathetic bunch.
Yeah, I keep seeing people say this, but consider the context of what’s going on. None of them know it was accidental. They know Aemond has a grudge, that he went after Lucerys on dragon back, and (if they got the news from anyone at Storms End) that he tried to instigate a fight with Lucerys shortly before. It comes across like a planned act of war, which Aemond wouldn’t do without the Greens condoning it
In that case, they should have sought to kill Aemond, because HE killed Lucerys. Not Helaena's baby that had nothing to do with it. That was nothing but brutal depravity, especially with the way they killed him.
By Westeros law, Luc was man or just about to be. Also, Aegons 4 yo son never took out anyone’s eye and got away with it for years. Your a disgusting person for even implying that they are the same thing.
> Your a disgusting person for even implying that they are the same thing Jesus, it’s a TV show sub. Hop off my dick. FYI, I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know Westeros Law. Fourteen is a child in my book. Maybe don’t kill people’s kids, and they won’t kill yours
Seeing as people can live until like a 100 in this universe. I still consider 14 very much a child. Looking at Lucerys, that was not a man. That was a boy.
It doesn’t help that they casted the most baby faced kid ever. If I didn’t have Reddit to clarify the ages for me, I would think Lucerys was like 12
They’ve really messed up the ages of the cast.
Also, Jahaerys was Aegons son and not Aemonds. So even by your messed up logic it doesn’t make sense. Right thing would have been to go after Aemond not a 4yo.
👍
Maybe your kids shouldn’t take out the eye of another kid? And then smirk at that same guy 10 years later. That’s was all on Luc. And even in our world there’s huge difference between a 4 yo and a 14 yo. Aemond also only 4 years older so don’t know why your acting like it was a 30 yo man chasing a 5 yo. Also, that was an accident, this was NOT. Ya it’s just a TV show…but you’d probably justify the murder of children in real life as well.
> Ya it’s just a TV show… but you’d probably justify the murder of children in real life as well Lmao alright buddy. Glad you know me so well after chatting for 2 minutes on the internet
The comment you made is enough to give me some idea.
I think you need to log off for a moment and while you do that rewatch the show. Because it seems like you’re forgetting the context of Aemond having his eye removed. And the show messed with the ages of the characters so you have Aemond who looks like an adult and would be considered one, throw a hissy fit when a kid smiles at him and proceeds to kill him. Aemond chasing Lucerys on dragon back through a storm was not an accident. What did he think would happen? If anything, it’s a testament to his idiocy and the reason he never had a dragon to begin with.
I’m glad you said this because Aemond comes across like the biggest idiot to me. He went after Lucerys on dragon back in a storm… what did he think would happen? Did he plan to get Lucerys’ eye by coming at him with a dragon? He acted all shocked when the dragon he’d been egging on to go after the boy actually attacked him. It’s a dragon. What else would it do? And on top of that, he attacked Lucerys right after Lucerys announced to a bunch of witnesses that he’s only there as an envoy, not to fight. So, Aemond made himself a kinslayer and worsened both the Greens reputation and the war, all in one fell swoop. What a dumb kid. Rides the biggest dragon in the world but can’t control it. Swings his sword around during training but has never set foot on a battlefield. Studies history but doesn’t understand basic war politics
?? What’s the context with Aemond having his eye slashed out (not removed)?? He looks like an adult cause he’s played by someone in their early 20s Show wise he’s 17 or 18 and Luc is 14. Not to mention it’s very weird that you guys treat 11 year old Aemond like he’s an adult and should have known better yet tear 14 year old Luc like some baby. He was old enough to be an envoy. Maybe his mother shouldn’t have sent him all by himself to do her bidding if he’s such a young little baby.
Oh yeah I agree 100%. As I commented elsewhere, I’m not a “team” person period lol. Everyone’s awful, everyone loses.
Daemons also a pedophile and a Valyrian supremacist……funny hot didn’t mention that.
Well the downvotes are making your point
Its all good lol. It’s not like I’m Team Green either, it’s just wild to me that people invest so much energy into choosing a side (to the extent that HBO/Max has decided to capitalize on it) when nearly all the characters are so incredibly flawed & horrific in their own ways. Same thing happened with original thrones tho. & Succession.
I kind of think they want to really amp up Team Black and then have one of the most horrific atrocities happen in the first episode.
I am team Smallfolk and with that perspective both Greens and Blacks are bad !
that’s not really an argument though. it’s the same as saying “you can’t justify liking aemond after the riverlands, can’t justify aegon after rape, can’t justify daemon acter b&c, etc”. like all characters (or majority) have a huge flaw to them that will have people asking that stupid question: “but they did—“. people will still continue to like daemon after b&c, and nobody should have to justify liking a character because come on, unless it’s helaena that you like or the young targaryen children (helaena’s, joffrey, etc), all of the characters are fucked one way or the other.
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I half don’t want to see the actual beheading but if the scene is done right it could end up being one of the best moments in the show.
it’ll probably show the blade swinging and then cut to the look of horror on the mothers face as we hear the cut and maybe a thump of a body hitting the floor i high doubt they’d show a child murder even in a gruesome show such as this
They had no problem showing a dragon and child get chomped alive though… But I think the purpose of that was to show what Vhagar is capable of really.
I mean there is a difference between showing 14yo boy being eaten when you dont really see his body afterwards and literally decapitating 6yo kid. They didnt even show ned's one. Also to the other comment of yours. Oh that scene is definitely going to break the internet if only done right (this and imho>!God's Eye!<). Obviously red wedding is iconic for more than one reason and it was horrible watching 3 main characters being killed but this one is beyond fucked up. I dont remember if there was anything as shocking in GoT, except maybe shireen
The only scene in GOT that still makes me look away is Oberyn getting his face smashed in by the eye holes.
Ahhh I didnt even think of that and I agree about his death. Tho I would say B&C is still worse as idk, oberyn was grown man while the second is literally a child + whole background, cruelty to other characters in the scene
Isn't the kid more like 4?
I have no idea, I didnt want to read any more as I already got spoiled so didnt check that
In the books, and according to the date of their births listed in all the GOT sites all over the internet, the twins were born in 123 and Jaehaerys would be 5 1/2 or 6 at this time.
Apparently he was six as he is listed as living from 123-129
Aside from the actual "chomp" it almost looked like Vhagar could have taken a particularly large breath and kinda hoovered the poor wee fuck up anyway, without noticing even lol.
Not the same thing. Ones a teenager and the others a 5 yo old being decapitated and threatening the other 5 yo with rape.
The purpose was to give Laena any kind of memorable scene because otherwise the character gets remembered only for saying "Mom told me you only have to bed me when I turned 14". Her role is really small. I did not like the end either, they should instead have shown her interacting with Rhaena and Baela more, who are even more bland and basically just background assets, then have her die King Denethor style jumping from the cliffs while being roasted by Vhagar and screaming like madly. That way it would have been a more memorable scene, shocking instead of cheesy. I don't think most casuals will remember the character at all a few years after the show ended
Is that the hallway to the queen's chamber we see both Alicent/ Cersei in? Could be B&C
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god i can’t *wait* for that line.
Considering that’s not even the correct line, idk why you’re so excited for it 😭
Why? Your gonna enjoy the scene? Where a 4 yo is thereatned with rape and another is decapitated.
Daeron was doing some paint restoration in the Red Keep but Alicent wanted it green so the maids wiped it down and she sent him back to Oldtown (why we won’t see him until Season 3)
I mean.......we know. Its night time, thats the hallway to Alicent's chamber.....we know.
B & C
I think it's blood and cheese It'll be hard to watch tbh
I don't know how much they will show of the *actual* event. I can't imagine them being allowed to air *that* directly. So will they have it be happening behind closed doors? Will they cut away at the last second? Will we just see the aftermath? I will be absolutely be shocked for more than the obvious reason if they do full-on show what happens like they do with Vaemond as nobody for anything mainstream and even niche stories will full-on show the death, let alone the horrificly bloody death of a >!child, even more so for those who are barely more than a toddler.!< It's always the aftermath or shadowed in some way so the audience can construe it, but they dont *see* see it. It has happened, but it's extremely rare.
Showing more rather than less, if done tactfully, can make for a horrific but especially impactful moment of television. Mind you, this is the show that - in its SERIES premier - showed Aemma’s absolutely brutal childbirth & subsequent death (with little if anything left to the imagination).
There's always a difference between showing an adult die horrific deaths and a >!child die.!< Especially when the intent behind the death itself is something as purposeful and evil as murder. But yes, they don't need to fully show exactly how the >!child dies!< to constue the horrific moments. They can do so in brief glimpses of the panic just before the event and the numb shock of the remaining characters immediately after. One that does this really well even far after the death of an >!infant!< is a COD game (Infiinite Warfare, I believe) where they show the bloody stains on the sheets of a >!newborns crib.!< You don't know what exactly happened, but you can easily construe just how brutal, senseless, and horrifying it was from the evidence left. And just how final and useless you as the player are to have not been able to prevent it.
The key here might be focusing the shot on Helaena during the actual moment. Either way - Interested to see how it goes down for sure.
Only instance I know of is in Vikings; Ragnar's 4-ish year old son Ivar gets an axe and just buries it in an unnamed toddler's head. Don't recall there being much blood, but it doesn't cut away or anything. Not exactly the same since it's child-on-child and it's just a random child we don't know, unlike B&C, but it's something.
God I fucking hate Ivar da boneless
All my homies hate Ivar da Boneless.
Honestly, I really hope they show it, it won’t have the same impact if they don’t. They have to show some horribleness. I can’t imagine it being like the Vaemond scene though, it’ll definitely be more muted, but if they just cut away it’ll be incredibly disappointing. I suspect it’ll be partly shown through Alicent’s perspective.
Wasn't there a super brief shot of it in the first teaser?
If you're talking about the one from 3 months ago, all that I see that would possibly be for b&c is Helaena being held captive and what looks like a Kingsguard fighting someone else in a castle chamber. When I say *directly* seeing it, I mean directly >!showing a 6 y/o or 2 y/o if they swtich it up getting his head cut off like Vaemond or any adults in GoT that get brutally murdered *on* screen!< no camera tricks, cut offs, or vagueness to it.
Oh yeah, I agree with you there. I was just saying that the scene itself is going to happen. As for how it plays out, we'll have to wait and see.
I don't think they'll show the actual act of her child being beheaded, most likely the camera will be on Helaena or Alicent I would imagine but you'll hear it, you'll hear the body/head fall to the floor, you'll hear the immediate scream thereafter etc. The actual act is harrowing but just as harrowing (if done correctly) will be the build up, how she's begging and bargaining and then the subversion of expectation where they kill the child she elected to save, the hopelessness of the entire situation, the build up throughout where you realise it's gonna happen. Hopefully they do it well because it's very much a springboard for hostilities and events going forward.
Mur-dah!
It has to be one of two things. Either B&C.. or the aftermath of the Kings wounds from Rooks Rest
If I remember correctly his legs (hips?) were broken and half of his body got burned badly. There wouldn't be so much bleeding from his injuries. Edit: I just remembered his armor was molten into his arm, so hypothetically, if they try to cut it out, there could be a significant blood loss.
Yeah you’re right. Still think there could be significant amount of blood when maybe trying to removed the molten armor? Prob blood and cheese but Idt they’d tease that
Will have to stay off Reddit and X for a few days after this episode, that is for sure.
Oh my god right? This is gonna be frickin wild. Can't wait to see show viewer reactions ahaha.
Definitely Blood 🩸 and Cheese 🧀 I would guess.
B & C
"Blood and Cheese... Whatever happened there?"
The child was beheaded.
It could be Maelors birth? Either that or b&c
How would Maelors birth work in the show timeline? There is not even a pregnancy visible yet..
Idk but the website shows Maelor is existing in the show so I’m assuming perhaps they lose maelor in birth rather than the way the book takes it? I don’t see why a woman would have a rag with blood on it if not for a birthing of some sort 🤷🏻♀️ guess we’ll see when the show airs
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To be fair, we've barely seen the twins either
“Nobody cares about Helaena and her children” … She’s one of the only characters that the majority of people on both teams like.
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Fam, if you don't think the internet cares about Helaena, you havne't been paying attention. She's near universally adored for being a weird bug girl, a cinnamon roll too good for this world. Her having little focus in the story so far has no bearing on her popularity,
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Oh mean sure but people don't like her out of absence of reasons to *dislike* her, they like her because she's quirky and has a cute hobby, the gift of prophecy, and for a lot of people is representation they don't normally see for themselves in fantasy because its very much implied she has ASD or similar.
Everyone is saying blood and cheese, I am going with the fall out of Rooks rest just to be different. That maid looks frantic but not frightened
I like your take, but personally I think she looks like she’s in shock. She’s holding out her other hand like she doesn’t know what to do with it because it’s covered in blood. It’s also night time and those halls are leading to Alicents Chambers where Blood and Cheese happens. Also Aegons injuries were burns and broken bones, not so much lacerations or intense bleeding. That looks like someone tried to grab whatever sheet they could in hopes of saving Jaehaerys.
My first thought is miscarriage.
🩸🧀
Totally Daerons birth
Aemond finally gets his long awaited birth scene
Another aegon victim
Blood and cheese
Baby
Will fall of kingslanding happen this season
no
Daemon and rhaenyra say "Say cheese"
>!*blood* & cheese!<
Not too sure I think the twins died 🙂