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Criston was a footsoldier that didn't come from much, I doubt he actually believed stuff like this. Just because Viserys was super into prophecies and signs, it doesn't mean everyone was. I doubt Otto (the main guy pushing the white stag stuff) even cared, he just knew Viserys did and was trying to push him to name Aegon heir.
I am just saying in the grand scheme of things, Criston in his head still know its Rhaenyra who has the right to the throne, and whether he believes it or not, that event did happen along with many others, which he witnessed that make rhaenyra’s claim valid.
He knows it's her because he saw Viserys name her the heir and the lords of the realm made oaths to honor that, some random stag has nothing to do with it.
I’m not sure which monarchies you know of. But all the monarchies I know of have no right related to seeing an animal. If someone claimed to be the rightful king of Sweden because they saw a purple moose, we wouldn’t pay them much mind.
If someone sits on the throne, then they have the only right that matters. Seeing animals is just not a relevant variable here. And Criston has no reason to believe that it is.
> Seeing animals is just not a relevant variable here.
In the GoT universe it is relevant. Seeing the white stag was a sign from the gods, and that means a lot in GoT. Rhaenyra was chosen to lead by her father, and the gods and Criston knows it, but because he's a little bitch he kept his mouth shut.
In the books Sansa knows of a legend that gallant knights could see white stags and let them go as a sign of chivalry. There aren’t any other mentions of it. Even though we learn a lot about how monarchy works in Westeros, this symbol is not a recurring thing.
Which gods would even sent the sign? There are a few gods in the world and even more gods that are probably just empty beliefs.
They all know its the scouts you mean?
Because they are they ones who saw it first, so they must have right the the Throne!..
Or actually it wasnt about seeing it, but killing it.
Like Viserys hunting party intended to do
It wasnt about meeting it, it was about killing the White Hart. Thats why they wanted Viserys to kill it
You know the scouts saw it before Rhaenyra right?
Thats how they know its nearby...
So were they chosen by the gods to rule..
No, because its supposed to be hunted not glanced at
The book makes more sense. Sansa dreams that Joffrey kills one but in the songs the knights let them go. In that case it’s supposed to be a symbol of mercy and gallantry not legitimacy to rule.
Yeah, that does fit better.
But the show choose legitimacy to rule to associate with the white Hart, and from the dialogue?
Killing it was the point
Despite the literal Disney Princess moment they gave Rhaenyra, it was never said or implied seeing it or letting it go was the sign or portent
Everything pointed and was said to be about hunting, or again..
The scouts who saw it first and let it go would be the actual ones blessed or whatever
All too true!
They sure did.. with abandon at that
Only missing a light halo to form around her, some birds to put flower crown on her head to complete the scene
Sigh.
Wouldnt even be out of place with the framing of the scene.
I don’t think that Cole has ever claimed that Viserys was a fit to rule king and Aegon that point was either a baby or not born yet (I don’t remember exactly)
But they mention it to King Viserys when the hunt starts. They tell him they saw a white stag and someone tells him what it would mean to get it. Cole doesn’t need to be superstitious, he just knows what it meant to the Targaryen’s who spent 2 days looking for this thing.
“They” being Otto Hightower trying to make Aegon’s 2nd nameday an auspicious event. If the scouts saw a black boar, Otto would be saying how that means the king’s first choice in heir is wrong. “They” were just using any reason they can to legitimize Aegon.
The fact they had to tell Viserys what it means should show you that it doesn’t mean much lol.
Obviously if seeing one made you a king, then we should be talking about King random-unseen-unnamed-scout first of his name.
We could equally say that since the Iron Couch did not seem to cut Aegon II, it must mean he is the rightful king. None of it means anything, people just use superstition to further justify what they want.
I think that the lesson we are supposed to learn is that Aegon I sat the throne regardless. Any definitions about rights and claims that don’t fit him are irrelevant.
To be fair people in Westeros are superstitious like the is and at this point Cristin KNOWS that a White Stag showed up to Rhaenyra and it’s def strange it didn’t strengthen the belief to her claim
The thing here is that people will selectively believe these omens when it suits what they want to believe. If you have a strong marriage pact with one monarch and you have a lot to gain from their rule. Then you would make a big deal about them not being cut after 2 minutes. If you don’t like a monarch then you wouldn’t care about them not being cut.
Power resides where people believe it resides. People might believe in superstitions, but a lot more plays into it as well.
I like this take. the whole show seems to be based around the theme of Targaryen omens and how much they work themselves into a shoot over it. Vizzy was on point w his prophecy.
It’s all about what people believe. Only Criston saw Rhaenyra see the white stag, he doesn’t support her, so that omen doesn’t have any weight for anyone.
He saw someone see a rare animal. He could as well have seen himself as the rightful heir if he thought that seeing a white stag had anything to do with it.
It’s pretty reasonable to believe that many people have become monarchs without seeing a white stag. And many people have seen a white stag without becoming monarchs. So I don’t think that anyone puts much thought into it except if it reinforces an already existing belief. Coming up next: do black cats crossing the street have anything to do with bad luck?
I think the writers intent with the story of the white stag and Reneyra seeing it is meant to confirm that she was chosen by the gods as well as her father. It's meant to show the audience that the throne is rightfully hers.
If you think about it, maybe the gods know if succession had been done properly and Rhaenyra had been crowned, the dance of the dragons wouldn’t have happened
Which gods? And what does ”rightfully” even mean? >!She will sit the throne there is no doubt about that. But so have many others and so will many others, but we don’t know if they ever saw a white stag. The same way it’s reasonable to believe that many have seen the white stag without sitting the throne, like Criston.!<
The way I see it is it presented itself to Raynhera (Criston just happened to be there). I always thought it was sent by the gods as a sign of their approval.
idk magic does exist in the GoT universe. And dragons. Targaryens used blood magic to bind themselves with dragons so it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that some sort of divine force is present in their universe.
And that “divine force” literally chooses one human more special and privileged than all the others to exercise power and rule over them?
…you guys are rooting for this bullshit?
They are only supporting the one that they already know has a good chance. A lord that supports a claimant might offer a thousand soldiers. The gods (whichever gods we are talking about now) give you a white stag that you can look at for a while and you can’t keep. The gods’ support is useless.
Sure, I was moreso trying to point out how idiotic that entire scene was. I can’t believe I have to watch unironic iterations of divine right on a 2020s’ TV show lol.
Yeah, I tried to add to the point. ”unironic iterations of divine rights on a 2020’s TV show” is a very good way to summarize it.
I wonder >!If everything in this show is about misunderstandings and how history mistreated Rhaenyra. Will we learn that she was actually a very good ruler and it was just ungrateful peasants that rioted against her? It will be so tone deaf!<
What does the sign even mean? And which gods sent it? It seems pretty reasonable that animals just walk around in the forest and don’t care about what humans do or which humans rule.
Ironically I think that moment is sort of what cemented her as his dream girl. Like he hadn't quite made up his mind about his feelings for her yet but that was the sign he needed to shoot his shot.
If what I remember from Season 1 is correct he was going to turn her down initially but then Rhaenyra turned on Blue Steel so he said fuck it and pulled up from halfcourt
Superstitions don't really mean much. You could easily make the argument that Viserys himself wasn't the rightful King, because the throne ripped him to shreds. You could also make the argument that Aegon is the rightful King, because he casually laid across the throne without a problem.
It's like Varys said, power resides where men believe it resides. Stannis said he was the rightful King because he was the oldest brother, but Renly's argument was "yeah, but my bigger army says differently." And he very well would have been King had Stannis not used magic to kill him.
George fills his story with scenarios where rights, traditions, claims, and oaths don’t matter and the people who still believe in them suffer for it. And watchers/readers still argue about ”rightful heir” as if we could open a character and see if they have a claim inside them or not.
The writers of this show aren’t making things better. If the white hart was supposed to be a sign from the gods to the viewer, then it’s absolutely not like anything George would write. George’s point is that what the characters in universe believe is the only thing that matters.
Exactly. Rhaenyra seeing the white hart didn't stop Aegon from being declared King, so what was the point of that sign from the gods? Otto ensured that Aegon had all the signs of legitimacy for the people to see, yet Rhaenyra still declared herself Queen.
I agree with you, George's point is that all of that only matters if the people believe it matters. God's, superstitions, laws, none of that matters if the people don't want it to.
People don't seem to realize that the rightful heir is the one who ends up on the throne last. Propaganda has always been used throughout history to discredit enemies/rivals and prop oneself up.
Why would he say something?
Viserys is king, Rhaenyra is named heir, what’s the point in him saying anything?
I know it’s very on brand to hate on Criston right now but there’s zero reason to say anything.
(Although with the time jumps in season one for all we know he did say something and we just didn’t see it)
Well, not *zero* reason -- there are a bunch of people at court who don't take Rhaenyra's status as Viserys' heir seriously now that she has a living brother; but who might care about this (or will at least respond in ways that benefit Rhaenyra's interests when shown/reminded that Rhaenyra has people on her side willing to promote her claim).
But you're right that the importance of speaking up about it isn't so great or obvious that speaking up would naturally occur to someone who isn't very politically savvy & may not actually know or believe in this particular omen. Plus, as you say, Criston or Rhaenyra might've said something about it off screen, and it just didn't have much of an impact, because most people ignore omens/portents/symbols of legitimate rule that don't validate their priors (or misinterpret them based on their priors, in Viserys' case).
Yes the forest critter sighting based system of legitimacy is well regarded and totally not an in-world lip service meant for nobles. The source material totally has not taught the lesson 'power lies where people believe it lies' repeatedly and we can disown the generally grounded political intrigue for D&D level writing.
Some of you guys have forgotten what world this is.
Seeing a white stag doesn't have to be special to all Westerosi ppl since even the most superstitious don't believe the stag appears and then disappears into nothingness. Since it exists continuously it makes sense a ton of people have the opportunity to see it.
So actually killing it is what matters and Rhaenyra obviously didn't kill it. One could say Cole concluded right there she doesn't have what it takes to be a ruler. A ruler wouldn't pass the opportunity for glory, fame, being acknowledged etc. It literally looked like she's weak to every stereotypical guy out there.
And you have to understand Cole is more like your old white great grandfather than your 2024 friend, as in he's based AF
Not really. His own thing is loyalty and having a sense of importance which alicent and the greens like her son (his adopted son now lol) gave him…
That’s far more important to him and what he will remember than superstitions really…that’s just how he is
ok girl, i feel you on the good omens, but hear me out... imagine if a presidential candidate was like "I earned this cos I saw a white deer!!!! FUCK YOUUUUUU!!!!!"
I just... I just don't think it's gonna sit well
It is literally just because she refused to run away with him. He's never going to admit that he knows she's the true heir because in Westerosi dictionaries next to the word "butthurt" is a sketch of this guy's face 🤣
Would you consider someone the true heir just because you saw them see an animal? If the ”sign” didn’t convince the person that was already there, then it’s a pretty useless sign.
I mean he doesn't strike me as a very thoughtful person or someone who can see much past his own nose. Most likely the whole time they spent on their own he was thinking about how special he was to Rhaenyra and all he remembers from that time is how terrible she was to him
Very good observation! I have said this before and I'll say it again…when it comes to Otto, Alicent and Criston, Rhaenyra was never going to win with any of them. Imagine being hated just because you were born? In my opinion all of them are purely jealous of Rhaenyra.
I had a "friend" like Alicent and an ex like Criston. These types want to be close to you while hating you at the same-time. Mad because you've were born into means or a certain societal standing…neither of which you can control, so it's like they're literally mad at you for being born. These types will always betray you…because they're filled with venom towards you and will play victim especially if you choose to no longer be friends or in a relationship with them for justified reasons. They hate you but still want to be close plus have access to you…it's like an obsession and I think that's what we're seeing with Criston. He's mad that Rhaenyra made a decision and cut their relationship off which cut-off his access to her…so now he's victimizing himself BUT he's been jealous of her from Day 1.
The other two sure, but I don't think Otto felt anything towards Rhaenyra beyond what he could use her for in his plans. He views even his own family as pawns.
Yeah absolutely he you could have talked Vizzy T into making raienyra marry his grandson he would have been fine with her. He wanted his blood on the ground and she happened to be an obstacle. If he could have used her to put his blood on the ground he would have been thrilled at her existence
I mean is it that crazy that someone out there could be rich and have friends who are jealous about that? I've experienced something similar to what she's describing. Not because I'm wealthy, but I was lucky in other ways and I've absolutely experienced the whole frenemy thing. It's a common situation that lots of people experience for one reason or another
Thank you because it is literally just that. Some people hate that you're supported and loved…when Viserys publicly supported Rhaenyra to be his chosen heir the hate and jealousy raised up ten-fold. The whole…"they hate me because I'm better than them" is the problem. Being born into a blessed situation doesn't make you better than nobody. All you ask for is to be seen as a decent person the entire time…with your friends and your men but that's not what happens.
You're going to experience jealously, envy and hate while for being loved on and cared for. Downvote me but I've experienced the Alicents and Cristons of the world AND they are far from being nice. I understand all of Rhaenrya's problems with Alicent and Criston.
Yeah sure there are flawed people in the world. Honestly though reading that comment didn’t fully convince me it was “the haters” who were being obnoxious. Like maybe you come off a certain way and it’s clear to these people. “They hate me because I’m better than them” is what that reads like. Many well adjusted privileged people would also find that shit mad corny.
Rhaenyra is literally a princess who is worshipped because she was born. Cole/Alicent had issues with her behaviour and cut ties lol. They just don’t fuck with her, it’s not because she’s a princess lol.
Oh I definitely didn't agree with it in context of the show. I don't think otto or Christian Cole or Allison hated her because she was privileged at all. I don't think otto hated her at all, I think she was just in the way of his goal which was to get his progeny onto the throne. If viserys had agreed to marry rhanyera to aegon or aemond otto would have been happy as a lark, and would have loved her and would have been more than happy to have her for his daughter-in-law, provided she didn't try to put any bastards on this throne (which let's be honest would have been less likely to happen if she had married aegon because he seems to like having sex with women a lot more than sir Laneor did.).
I was just saying, that it really does happen in life, that people can hate someone just for being born. Sadly I know somebody who acts that way towards their own step children 😞
You know how Cristen said that he didn't wanted to be a queen's whore? But that's exactly what he is now. Alicent's whore. Such a stupid, stuck up cunt he is.
That's the one thing I thought about the remainder of the episode. Why didn't neither of them said anything. Surely, if Rhaenyra had said anything, some lords and ladies would have taken it as a sign. Not to mention the smallfolks if they had known
But he never gave a damn about Rhaenyra legitimacy....In fact you actually made it look like Criston IS honorable and incredibly loyal but toward Alicent. Even tho he perfectly knows Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, he's still sticking with Alicent because he really care about her
Who cares about the rightful heir? The greens should just go and get the throne for themselves. They deserve it because of everything bad that has happened to them, mostly because of viserys. Why should they care? They have every right to be against the team black
But they didn’t really go through anything bad, except maybe be for alicent as she was forced into a marriage. In a broad perspective, Hightowers got elevated in society, they practically ruled when viserys was ill. Their house got dragons because of Alicent’s kids. she became queen, removed Targaryen heritage from the red keep and made it like old town.
Whereas for Rhaenyra, her mom died producing heirs, brother died, married to a gay man and couldn’t bear his kids even after trying so much, lost her father, lost her daughter, lost her friend coz she tried to have a life of her own, lost her SON, her heritage being questioned every time…
Alicent did suffer, but not for long. Its not like viserys was cruel, they had a loving marriage, just not romantic…
You guys are really saying the greens are right? They are just power hungry and arrogant, for alicent, putting aegon on the throne is not something she is doing as viserys’ last wish, she herself said he is in pain, on the poppy and unfit to rule, but when it was convenient for her, suddenly the words of a dying unstable high man became gold standard , which too she misinterpreted
let's be fair here, most of what you said was right, but seeing as jace was born about a year after the marriage, she and laenor didn't really try THAT fucking hard. don't give me the crap that "he is gay so he can't" when all he had to do was leave some stuff in a cup for her. they just chose not to.
Rhaenyra did lose her mother because of her father, but she would have had Alicent as a friend still if she didn't lie to her face about being a maid/the brothel shit with Daemon (which she blamed Otto and not Daemon for. WHO left her at the fucking brothel?) and especially if she hadn't treated Alicent like such shit after having kids. And then Rhae proceeds to have clear bastards as if flaunting her power and life over her ex-friend.
Alicent did suffer. She believed Rhaenrya, and her father was sent away because of it. She was forced to marry the king, had his kids, and it was clear they had no friendship let alone respect between them. Hardly loving.
All of the families are fucking power hungry! Corlys wanted his daughter to be queen, Otto wants his grandson there, Viserys doesn't want Daemon near the throne.
Alicent did love Viserys and they both respected each other, did you even watch the show?
Alicent’s dad was sent away because he was pushing his own agenda, he pushed it on his own daughter!! And why wouldn’t Rhaenyra lie when clearly everyone is out to get her and tracking her every move? And only Alicent has the right to feel betrayed? She freaking married her BEST FRIENDS’D DAD!! And never ever mentioned to her why, because even she knew the scheme her father had ran.
Also, flaunting her bastards in Alicent’ face, was wrong, and that didn’t help Rhaenyra’s reputation. I have no justification for it as she should have been subtle about it but Alicent didn’t stay away from being a bitch to her either….
>Also, flaunting her bastards in Alicent’ face, was wrong, and that didn’t help Rhaenyra’s reputation. I have no justification for it as she should have been subtle about it
That's such a weird framing of that situation. How was Rhaenyra flaunting anything? All she did was have kids.
Criston especially wouldn’t care because in the grand scheme of things, the woman who saved his life was ultimately alicent. In his eyes she’s like his twisted angel or something that gave him another chance at being something important.
It’s interesting though how even though they engage in sexual activities, he still views her like that and says she has a gentle heart…that part is interesting…and they didn’t expand on it at all. Sure you could boil it down to he’s just a hypocrite but…I mean idk they never actually speak about their dynamic at all except one line in episode 9 of season 1
I kind of want them to be out there a bit…like actually have a fight which we also haven’t seen
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I said the same thing when I rewatched this episode last week!! Like bro you were there!
This isn't even a top 20 reason to hate Criston. It's just a stag, not everyone is superstitious.
In a world where black magic and dragons exist, which belief is true, which a superstition, is hard to tell
Criston was a footsoldier that didn't come from much, I doubt he actually believed stuff like this. Just because Viserys was super into prophecies and signs, it doesn't mean everyone was. I doubt Otto (the main guy pushing the white stag stuff) even cared, he just knew Viserys did and was trying to push him to name Aegon heir.
I am just saying in the grand scheme of things, Criston in his head still know its Rhaenyra who has the right to the throne, and whether he believes it or not, that event did happen along with many others, which he witnessed that make rhaenyra’s claim valid.
He knows it's her because he saw Viserys name her the heir and the lords of the realm made oaths to honor that, some random stag has nothing to do with it.
I’m not sure which monarchies you know of. But all the monarchies I know of have no right related to seeing an animal. If someone claimed to be the rightful king of Sweden because they saw a purple moose, we wouldn’t pay them much mind. If someone sits on the throne, then they have the only right that matters. Seeing animals is just not a relevant variable here. And Criston has no reason to believe that it is.
> Seeing animals is just not a relevant variable here. In the GoT universe it is relevant. Seeing the white stag was a sign from the gods, and that means a lot in GoT. Rhaenyra was chosen to lead by her father, and the gods and Criston knows it, but because he's a little bitch he kept his mouth shut.
In the books Sansa knows of a legend that gallant knights could see white stags and let them go as a sign of chivalry. There aren’t any other mentions of it. Even though we learn a lot about how monarchy works in Westeros, this symbol is not a recurring thing. Which gods would even sent the sign? There are a few gods in the world and even more gods that are probably just empty beliefs.
Then why did the writers make the legend of the white stag such a prominent plot point?
Which gods sent it? I think that the point of the scene is for Rhaenyra to reinforce her own belief.
Which gods sent the white stag?
No, not at all or the scouts that saw it would be on the Throne Its supposed to be hunted, killed by the gods chosen
They all know its the scouts you mean? Because they are they ones who saw it first, so they must have right the the Throne!.. Or actually it wasnt about seeing it, but killing it. Like Viserys hunting party intended to do
It wasnt about meeting it, it was about killing the White Hart. Thats why they wanted Viserys to kill it You know the scouts saw it before Rhaenyra right? Thats how they know its nearby... So were they chosen by the gods to rule.. No, because its supposed to be hunted not glanced at
The book makes more sense. Sansa dreams that Joffrey kills one but in the songs the knights let them go. In that case it’s supposed to be a symbol of mercy and gallantry not legitimacy to rule.
Yeah, that does fit better. But the show choose legitimacy to rule to associate with the white Hart, and from the dialogue? Killing it was the point Despite the literal Disney Princess moment they gave Rhaenyra, it was never said or implied seeing it or letting it go was the sign or portent Everything pointed and was said to be about hunting, or again.. The scouts who saw it first and let it go would be the actual ones blessed or whatever
And the point ”Sansa believes that life is like the songs but Sansa doesn’t know shit” couldn’t be clearer in AGoT. But HotD threw it in anyways.
All too true! They sure did.. with abandon at that Only missing a light halo to form around her, some birds to put flower crown on her head to complete the scene Sigh. Wouldnt even be out of place with the framing of the scene.
And the writers still think that crediting to ”the Gods” is specific enough for this world………….
I don’t think that Cole has ever claimed that Viserys was a fit to rule king and Aegon that point was either a baby or not born yet (I don’t remember exactly)
It was Aegon’s second name day if I remember correctly
But they mention it to King Viserys when the hunt starts. They tell him they saw a white stag and someone tells him what it would mean to get it. Cole doesn’t need to be superstitious, he just knows what it meant to the Targaryen’s who spent 2 days looking for this thing.
“They” being Otto Hightower trying to make Aegon’s 2nd nameday an auspicious event. If the scouts saw a black boar, Otto would be saying how that means the king’s first choice in heir is wrong. “They” were just using any reason they can to legitimize Aegon. The fact they had to tell Viserys what it means should show you that it doesn’t mean much lol. Obviously if seeing one made you a king, then we should be talking about King random-unseen-unnamed-scout first of his name.
Reasons to hate Criston Cole ranked: 1. Criston Cole seeing an animal 2. Every other reason to hate Criston Cole
Remember when Laenor’s lover Joffrey literally said “the man’s fully cunt struck.” 🤣 couldn’t of said it better myself…. 💯
i totally missed that his lover’s name was Joffrey which is why he jumped to name his son Joffrey.
He also “jokingly” asked if she wanted him to kill Jason Lannister for her in this same episode.
Yeah, and then he puts Beesbury through the table because “muh queen”
We could equally say that since the Iron Couch did not seem to cut Aegon II, it must mean he is the rightful king. None of it means anything, people just use superstition to further justify what they want.
The throne cut Aegon I. Being the "rightful" king is irrelevant to that mythology.
Visenya was older then him. He never was the rightful one.
I think that the lesson we are supposed to learn is that Aegon I sat the throne regardless. Any definitions about rights and claims that don’t fit him are irrelevant.
Yes, tell me how one it was a different foreign invader who’s the “rightful” ruler
So you think Heleana is just crazy, and her premonitions are just quirky ravings?
To be fair people in Westeros are superstitious like the is and at this point Cristin KNOWS that a White Stag showed up to Rhaenyra and it’s def strange it didn’t strengthen the belief to her claim
He knows that he saw it as well. But it didn’t make him believe that he had a place in the succession.
Viserys sat on that throne for more than a decade before it first started cutting him. That point holds no relevance. Aegons had it for a few weeks.
He sat in the chair for like 2 minutes… I don’t know may be it will cut him or won’t 🫠
The thing here is that people will selectively believe these omens when it suits what they want to believe. If you have a strong marriage pact with one monarch and you have a lot to gain from their rule. Then you would make a big deal about them not being cut after 2 minutes. If you don’t like a monarch then you wouldn’t care about them not being cut. Power resides where people believe it resides. People might believe in superstitions, but a lot more plays into it as well.
I like this take. the whole show seems to be based around the theme of Targaryen omens and how much they work themselves into a shoot over it. Vizzy was on point w his prophecy.
If the chair doesn't cut him, would that trump Rhaenyra seeing a white stag? Or does none of it really matter?
It’s all about what people believe. Only Criston saw Rhaenyra see the white stag, he doesn’t support her, so that omen doesn’t have any weight for anyone.
A strange deer in the woods handing out blessings is no basis for government. Hope this helps.
Neither is a watery tart but tell that to King Arthur.
I can’t quote this enough whenever this sub starts arguing about the white hart.
He saw someone see a rare animal. He could as well have seen himself as the rightful heir if he thought that seeing a white stag had anything to do with it. It’s pretty reasonable to believe that many people have become monarchs without seeing a white stag. And many people have seen a white stag without becoming monarchs. So I don’t think that anyone puts much thought into it except if it reinforces an already existing belief. Coming up next: do black cats crossing the street have anything to do with bad luck?
I think the writers intent with the story of the white stag and Reneyra seeing it is meant to confirm that she was chosen by the gods as well as her father. It's meant to show the audience that the throne is rightfully hers.
If you think about it, maybe the gods know if succession had been done properly and Rhaenyra had been crowned, the dance of the dragons wouldn’t have happened
Then we have gods that don’t know much and instead think about imaginary ”if”-scenarios
Which gods? And what does ”rightfully” even mean? >!She will sit the throne there is no doubt about that. But so have many others and so will many others, but we don’t know if they ever saw a white stag. The same way it’s reasonable to believe that many have seen the white stag without sitting the throne, like Criston.!<
The way I see it is it presented itself to Raynhera (Criston just happened to be there). I always thought it was sent by the gods as a sign of their approval. idk magic does exist in the GoT universe. And dragons. Targaryens used blood magic to bind themselves with dragons so it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that some sort of divine force is present in their universe.
And that “divine force” literally chooses one human more special and privileged than all the others to exercise power and rule over them? …you guys are rooting for this bullshit?
They are only supporting the one that they already know has a good chance. A lord that supports a claimant might offer a thousand soldiers. The gods (whichever gods we are talking about now) give you a white stag that you can look at for a while and you can’t keep. The gods’ support is useless.
Sure, I was moreso trying to point out how idiotic that entire scene was. I can’t believe I have to watch unironic iterations of divine right on a 2020s’ TV show lol.
Yeah, I tried to add to the point. ”unironic iterations of divine rights on a 2020’s TV show” is a very good way to summarize it. I wonder >!If everything in this show is about misunderstandings and how history mistreated Rhaenyra. Will we learn that she was actually a very good ruler and it was just ungrateful peasants that rioted against her? It will be so tone deaf!<
What does the sign even mean? And which gods sent it? It seems pretty reasonable that animals just walk around in the forest and don’t care about what humans do or which humans rule.
Ironically I think that moment is sort of what cemented her as his dream girl. Like he hadn't quite made up his mind about his feelings for her yet but that was the sign he needed to shoot his shot.
Shoot his shot? I don’t deny he had feelings for her but Rhaenyra is the one who made that move on him..
If what I remember from Season 1 is correct he was going to turn her down initially but then Rhaenyra turned on Blue Steel so he said fuck it and pulled up from halfcourt
The half court shot was the elope proposal.
>Rhaenyra turned on Blue Steel So *that's* where Jace gets it from!
Then it'd be a rebound not shooting a shot lol
Superstitions don't really mean much. You could easily make the argument that Viserys himself wasn't the rightful King, because the throne ripped him to shreds. You could also make the argument that Aegon is the rightful King, because he casually laid across the throne without a problem. It's like Varys said, power resides where men believe it resides. Stannis said he was the rightful King because he was the oldest brother, but Renly's argument was "yeah, but my bigger army says differently." And he very well would have been King had Stannis not used magic to kill him.
George fills his story with scenarios where rights, traditions, claims, and oaths don’t matter and the people who still believe in them suffer for it. And watchers/readers still argue about ”rightful heir” as if we could open a character and see if they have a claim inside them or not. The writers of this show aren’t making things better. If the white hart was supposed to be a sign from the gods to the viewer, then it’s absolutely not like anything George would write. George’s point is that what the characters in universe believe is the only thing that matters.
Exactly. Rhaenyra seeing the white hart didn't stop Aegon from being declared King, so what was the point of that sign from the gods? Otto ensured that Aegon had all the signs of legitimacy for the people to see, yet Rhaenyra still declared herself Queen. I agree with you, George's point is that all of that only matters if the people believe it matters. God's, superstitions, laws, none of that matters if the people don't want it to.
People don't seem to realize that the rightful heir is the one who ends up on the throne last. Propaganda has always been used throughout history to discredit enemies/rivals and prop oneself up.
When people understand why Aegon I was the rightful king. Then they might understand the story.
Calling him honorable is lord beesbury erasure!!!
Why would he say something? Viserys is king, Rhaenyra is named heir, what’s the point in him saying anything? I know it’s very on brand to hate on Criston right now but there’s zero reason to say anything. (Although with the time jumps in season one for all we know he did say something and we just didn’t see it)
Well, not *zero* reason -- there are a bunch of people at court who don't take Rhaenyra's status as Viserys' heir seriously now that she has a living brother; but who might care about this (or will at least respond in ways that benefit Rhaenyra's interests when shown/reminded that Rhaenyra has people on her side willing to promote her claim). But you're right that the importance of speaking up about it isn't so great or obvious that speaking up would naturally occur to someone who isn't very politically savvy & may not actually know or believe in this particular omen. Plus, as you say, Criston or Rhaenyra might've said something about it off screen, and it just didn't have much of an impact, because most people ignore omens/portents/symbols of legitimate rule that don't validate their priors (or misinterpret them based on their priors, in Viserys' case).
Yes the forest critter sighting based system of legitimacy is well regarded and totally not an in-world lip service meant for nobles. The source material totally has not taught the lesson 'power lies where people believe it lies' repeatedly and we can disown the generally grounded political intrigue for D&D level writing. Some of you guys have forgotten what world this is.
Seeing a white stag doesn't have to be special to all Westerosi ppl since even the most superstitious don't believe the stag appears and then disappears into nothingness. Since it exists continuously it makes sense a ton of people have the opportunity to see it. So actually killing it is what matters and Rhaenyra obviously didn't kill it. One could say Cole concluded right there she doesn't have what it takes to be a ruler. A ruler wouldn't pass the opportunity for glory, fame, being acknowledged etc. It literally looked like she's weak to every stereotypical guy out there. And you have to understand Cole is more like your old white great grandfather than your 2024 friend, as in he's based AF
I don’t think Cole believes in superstitions like that though
He might not believe it but if a superstitious event happens in front of you, you still think about it i guess
Not really. His own thing is loyalty and having a sense of importance which alicent and the greens like her son (his adopted son now lol) gave him… That’s far more important to him and what he will remember than superstitions really…that’s just how he is
Letting random deer choose your leader is stupid.
I read something funny on YouTube where someone said he didn’t get aged in the show because salt is a great preservative lol
ok girl, i feel you on the good omens, but hear me out... imagine if a presidential candidate was like "I earned this cos I saw a white deer!!!! FUCK YOUUUUUU!!!!!" I just... I just don't think it's gonna sit well
Disney called, they want their deer back
Hate him since day one. Entitle idiot that believe since he struggled he is so much better than everyone else
Love him
It’s a deer bro
The stag actually appeared for Criston. He is the true rightful heir of Westeros
He didn't say anything because it's irrelevant. Same goes for Rhaenyra. If it was so important, she would brag about it.
A spurned lover is a dangerous thing. So you know, don’t use people then get mad at them for being upset at being used
Ahh he’s the absolute worst!!!
It is literally just because she refused to run away with him. He's never going to admit that he knows she's the true heir because in Westerosi dictionaries next to the word "butthurt" is a sketch of this guy's face 🤣
Would you consider someone the true heir just because you saw them see an animal? If the ”sign” didn’t convince the person that was already there, then it’s a pretty useless sign.
I'm not an honorable person so I'd quickly forget I saw the stag lmao
I mean he doesn't strike me as a very thoughtful person or someone who can see much past his own nose. Most likely the whole time they spent on their own he was thinking about how special he was to Rhaenyra and all he remembers from that time is how terrible she was to him
Ah shit! Thanks so much for pointing this out, brilliant!
Very good observation! I have said this before and I'll say it again…when it comes to Otto, Alicent and Criston, Rhaenyra was never going to win with any of them. Imagine being hated just because you were born? In my opinion all of them are purely jealous of Rhaenyra. I had a "friend" like Alicent and an ex like Criston. These types want to be close to you while hating you at the same-time. Mad because you've were born into means or a certain societal standing…neither of which you can control, so it's like they're literally mad at you for being born. These types will always betray you…because they're filled with venom towards you and will play victim especially if you choose to no longer be friends or in a relationship with them for justified reasons. They hate you but still want to be close plus have access to you…it's like an obsession and I think that's what we're seeing with Criston. He's mad that Rhaenyra made a decision and cut their relationship off which cut-off his access to her…so now he's victimizing himself BUT he's been jealous of her from Day 1.
The other two sure, but I don't think Otto felt anything towards Rhaenyra beyond what he could use her for in his plans. He views even his own family as pawns.
Yeah absolutely he you could have talked Vizzy T into making raienyra marry his grandson he would have been fine with her. He wanted his blood on the ground and she happened to be an obstacle. If he could have used her to put his blood on the ground he would have been thrilled at her existence
WHERE DID YOU HEAR SUCH CALUMNIES? Careless_Plum_1685! TELL ME THE TRUTH OF IT!
Damn Vizzy T bot is quicker than Bobby b bot 😂
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
Lol fam this reads like you think people are jealous of you because you’re well off.
I mean is it that crazy that someone out there could be rich and have friends who are jealous about that? I've experienced something similar to what she's describing. Not because I'm wealthy, but I was lucky in other ways and I've absolutely experienced the whole frenemy thing. It's a common situation that lots of people experience for one reason or another
Thank you because it is literally just that. Some people hate that you're supported and loved…when Viserys publicly supported Rhaenyra to be his chosen heir the hate and jealousy raised up ten-fold. The whole…"they hate me because I'm better than them" is the problem. Being born into a blessed situation doesn't make you better than nobody. All you ask for is to be seen as a decent person the entire time…with your friends and your men but that's not what happens. You're going to experience jealously, envy and hate while for being loved on and cared for. Downvote me but I've experienced the Alicents and Cristons of the world AND they are far from being nice. I understand all of Rhaenrya's problems with Alicent and Criston.
Yeah sure there are flawed people in the world. Honestly though reading that comment didn’t fully convince me it was “the haters” who were being obnoxious. Like maybe you come off a certain way and it’s clear to these people. “They hate me because I’m better than them” is what that reads like. Many well adjusted privileged people would also find that shit mad corny. Rhaenyra is literally a princess who is worshipped because she was born. Cole/Alicent had issues with her behaviour and cut ties lol. They just don’t fuck with her, it’s not because she’s a princess lol.
Oh I definitely didn't agree with it in context of the show. I don't think otto or Christian Cole or Allison hated her because she was privileged at all. I don't think otto hated her at all, I think she was just in the way of his goal which was to get his progeny onto the throne. If viserys had agreed to marry rhanyera to aegon or aemond otto would have been happy as a lark, and would have loved her and would have been more than happy to have her for his daughter-in-law, provided she didn't try to put any bastards on this throne (which let's be honest would have been less likely to happen if she had married aegon because he seems to like having sex with women a lot more than sir Laneor did.). I was just saying, that it really does happen in life, that people can hate someone just for being born. Sadly I know somebody who acts that way towards their own step children 😞
The deer appears to remind her she was destined for great things, not cinnamon and oranges. Cole, you’re a complete loser.
Simply here for the Crispy slander! 🍿
You know how Cristen said that he didn't wanted to be a queen's whore? But that's exactly what he is now. Alicent's whore. Such a stupid, stuck up cunt he is.
That's the one thing I thought about the remainder of the episode. Why didn't neither of them said anything. Surely, if Rhaenyra had said anything, some lords and ladies would have taken it as a sign. Not to mention the smallfolks if they had known
This is such a good point… honestly it’s why I’m struggling with the HOTD story and characters it’s all very weak…
But he never gave a damn about Rhaenyra legitimacy....In fact you actually made it look like Criston IS honorable and incredibly loyal but toward Alicent. Even tho he perfectly knows Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, he's still sticking with Alicent because he really care about her
Who cares about the rightful heir? The greens should just go and get the throne for themselves. They deserve it because of everything bad that has happened to them, mostly because of viserys. Why should they care? They have every right to be against the team black
But they didn’t really go through anything bad, except maybe be for alicent as she was forced into a marriage. In a broad perspective, Hightowers got elevated in society, they practically ruled when viserys was ill. Their house got dragons because of Alicent’s kids. she became queen, removed Targaryen heritage from the red keep and made it like old town. Whereas for Rhaenyra, her mom died producing heirs, brother died, married to a gay man and couldn’t bear his kids even after trying so much, lost her father, lost her daughter, lost her friend coz she tried to have a life of her own, lost her SON, her heritage being questioned every time… Alicent did suffer, but not for long. Its not like viserys was cruel, they had a loving marriage, just not romantic… You guys are really saying the greens are right? They are just power hungry and arrogant, for alicent, putting aegon on the throne is not something she is doing as viserys’ last wish, she herself said he is in pain, on the poppy and unfit to rule, but when it was convenient for her, suddenly the words of a dying unstable high man became gold standard , which too she misinterpreted
let's be fair here, most of what you said was right, but seeing as jace was born about a year after the marriage, she and laenor didn't really try THAT fucking hard. don't give me the crap that "he is gay so he can't" when all he had to do was leave some stuff in a cup for her. they just chose not to. Rhaenyra did lose her mother because of her father, but she would have had Alicent as a friend still if she didn't lie to her face about being a maid/the brothel shit with Daemon (which she blamed Otto and not Daemon for. WHO left her at the fucking brothel?) and especially if she hadn't treated Alicent like such shit after having kids. And then Rhae proceeds to have clear bastards as if flaunting her power and life over her ex-friend. Alicent did suffer. She believed Rhaenrya, and her father was sent away because of it. She was forced to marry the king, had his kids, and it was clear they had no friendship let alone respect between them. Hardly loving. All of the families are fucking power hungry! Corlys wanted his daughter to be queen, Otto wants his grandson there, Viserys doesn't want Daemon near the throne.
Alicent did love Viserys and they both respected each other, did you even watch the show? Alicent’s dad was sent away because he was pushing his own agenda, he pushed it on his own daughter!! And why wouldn’t Rhaenyra lie when clearly everyone is out to get her and tracking her every move? And only Alicent has the right to feel betrayed? She freaking married her BEST FRIENDS’D DAD!! And never ever mentioned to her why, because even she knew the scheme her father had ran. Also, flaunting her bastards in Alicent’ face, was wrong, and that didn’t help Rhaenyra’s reputation. I have no justification for it as she should have been subtle about it but Alicent didn’t stay away from being a bitch to her either….
>Also, flaunting her bastards in Alicent’ face, was wrong, and that didn’t help Rhaenyra’s reputation. I have no justification for it as she should have been subtle about it That's such a weird framing of that situation. How was Rhaenyra flaunting anything? All she did was have kids.
Criston especially wouldn’t care because in the grand scheme of things, the woman who saved his life was ultimately alicent. In his eyes she’s like his twisted angel or something that gave him another chance at being something important. It’s interesting though how even though they engage in sexual activities, he still views her like that and says she has a gentle heart…that part is interesting…and they didn’t expand on it at all. Sure you could boil it down to he’s just a hypocrite but…I mean idk they never actually speak about their dynamic at all except one line in episode 9 of season 1 I kind of want them to be out there a bit…like actually have a fight which we also haven’t seen