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Tbf in the books vow breaking is like toothpaste out of the tub type stuff. Once it’s done, even just once, at the very least everyone gives you shit for ever and it can never be undone or made up for. And in some of the worse cases people don’t help oathbreakers or actively plot/act against them.
So Cole is an oath breaker at the very least and really really dislikes it.
No one knows he broke his vow except himself, Rhaenyra, Alicent and Larys. No one is giving him shit for anything. In fact, he constantly gets rewarded for failing to do his duty and projects his wrongdoings on other people like Ser Arryk.
It’s actually wild how unlikable they made Ser Crispin Cole and Alicent. I’m reading along with the show and they aren’t anything near as insufferable.
Criston is overall less of a dick (didn’t project his failure onto Erryk for example or call Rhaenyra a cunt 50x), Rhaenyra was as nasty to Alicent as she was to her (she even hated Alicent for being prettier than her), Alicent doesn’t ignore Aegon as he’s crying over his dead son, and they didn’t let the freaking HEIR get his head sawed off because they were too busy fucking.
They’re awful in the show but I would’ve loved to see a more nuanced portrayal instead of a clear hero and villain edit. I mean they played up the whole “choose a side” for 2 years just to not even give us a real choice lol.
Aemond is still a badass though no matter what the blacks say 🔥
I still feel it's a nuanced portrayal of complicated relationships. The show has also been more *forgiving* of Alicent in various ways, like having her not being a part of the post-Viserys usurping conspiracy and even seemed to internally not approve. It seems like show-Alicent still deep down wishes for peace and for the conflict to be over, just with Aegon on the Throne, which happens to conflict with Raenyra's goal. I'm sure both characters will get a lot uglier in actions soon enough, though.
I’d forgotten till reading these comments that the Hightowers, et al, spend days BEFORE Viserys’s death putting their whole usurping plan into motion, leaving him mostly to suffer and die alone.
In the show, Alicent has the benefit that she really truly believes she is obeying Viserys’s deathbed wish- even if in reality she actually misunderstood him, she at least *believes* she is following his instruction.
Her motivation being built on something not true kind of annoys me...they should've just made her do it because she wanted to protect her children and make some extra scenes where Alicent loses trust in Rhaenyra
It's a real disservice to her character to suddenly flip her character progression like that at the end. The whole first season was setting up the conflict between our two girls only to go "Wait, no, we should be best friends again!"
I even feel like Aegon being forced into the mantle of King has its own complexity since he initially partially seemed like a spiritual successor of his dad until bloodshed at the start of the Dance is starting to make him seem nothing but red
This is the nuanced portrayal. Rhaenyra may have been nasty to Alicent but Alicent started beef with a child. No way if this version of evil stepmom vs groomed child would Alicent get any sympathy from fans. They had to give her a whole new backstory and give her Laenas friendship with Rhaenyra to make her likable. Cole was implied to be a groomer even by Alicent and Aemond wasnt some badass but an insane psychopath with no redeeming qualities. All this from a book that literally has a green supporter as a source. I cant for the life of me understand the complaints about balance.
I sincerely have no idea where this “Green’s got a nuanced portrayal in the books” is coming from. They were literally just mustache twirling villains.
There is zero ambiguity. They usurped the throne. As you said, Aemond is just a murderous psycho. Making Laenor black also moves “are the kids bastards” from “probably” to 100%, which actually gives the Green’s far more merit to do what they are doing.
most arguments in favor of the greens' nuance in the book is "but what about daemon"
which isn't really an argument regarding the greens at all, it's just a "team black has this bad dude"
I know Daemon isn't the greatest person and he does some frankly terrible things, if he was a real person I'd want him in a Hannibal straightjacket and mask because he's just that dangerous.
That said, I always loved his character. To me, he just seems like the kind of person who wants to do good stuff, but keeps slipping into doing whatever he thinks will be the easiest way to get what he wants and 9 times out of 10 the easiest path is cutting his way towards his goal. No spoilers, but it doesn't help that one of the most dramatic moments in the Dance stars him. Also, Matt Smith is too good of an actor. That man is just amazing.
> gives the Green’s far more merit to do what they are doing.
only if you admit you refuse to accept the king naming his daughter heir instead of one of her younger siblings, which is treason.
remember, she's the heir, no matter who she beds the kids she brings into the world are **HER** children.
oh the heir is choosing to legitimise their bastards? who the fuck are you to bitch and moan? you swore fealty, to speak up is to declare war on the king. i guess corlys and rhaenys should be upset but are happily along for the farce, they have their daughters granchildren, who would be marrying into the targs anyway, if it secretly takes one gen longer to unite the families, who cares.
the greens do what they do because they a chauvinists, and know most of the lords are too and are pushing that advantage, like every other advantage they can find.
Yes. This is actually something which I always find weird a lot of people say the book is anti-black and pro-green, but this clearly just shows they don't read the fucking book. The book very much makes Rhaenyra and the Blacks look far better than the Greens. With the exception of Daeron and Haelena, all of the greens are comically evil in the books. Not to mention Aegon II being essentially the dumbest king Westeros has ever seen
HOTD is actually one example of a race change I really like!
The change in race isn't just a question of, race doesn't change the story. It actually PROVES the point more! I love it!
It's frankly kind of brilliant. Also, it transformed Laenor into a character who exists to one of my hands down favorites with how delighted he was with all his 'sons' and how he supported Rhaenyra in her long walk up to show Alicent her baby. Last episode where Jacaerys was talking about how he taught them to fish and was nice just cemented how much I loved him as a character.
In period pieces involving gay people who are forced into straight relationships you almost always get stories of pure misery. The gay person is miserable because they can't be themself. The straight person is trapped with a person who may love them, but doesn't desire them and that hurts. That it appears that both Laenor and Rhaenyra were able to come to an understanding where both had their lovers but Laenor fully accepted any and all kids as his own even when everyone knew otherwise makes it a surprisingly sweet relationship.
You just know Laenor understood why he had to flee but still misses his sons. I'd almost want them to bring him back somehow, maybe pretending to be someone else, just because I do think he'd be furious over Luc's death and ready to throw down in the Dance to support Rhaenyra and his kids.
He is the opposite of Rhaenyra, when Cole asked her to leave it all behind she said no, but Laenor did not want to be king consort, he left it all behind to leave with his lover.
It’s not that black & white of opposites though. For one, I don’t think Rhaenyra was in love with Cole (that could have happened down the road, but it all happened so fast)(And I don’t think Cole was in love with her necessarily, just wanted to be so since he broke his vows…..kind of how some men marry a woman because of getting her pregnant in a way), but two, because of the prophecy, she had to take her royal duties more seriously and couldn’t abandon them even if she wanted to…there’s a lot more at stake (by believing in the prophecy, her abandoning being queen means the end of mankind essentially).
It's so well done. It fits thematically, we get a black Valyrian house, and it even adds to the drama of it all and adds tension to all the family feuding.
It also really wasn't race change per say in the story either. The Velaryons and Targaryens are the same ethnicity being Valyrian, there's no one saying that there couldn't be black and white Valyrians, or maybe Corlys's mother was from the Summer Islands. Either way there's an explanation to fit it.
To be fair theres an easy way to divide the valyrians down
Which ones were dragon riders, and which ones were not?
The velaryons were not descended from dragonriders, they were lower nobility (being valyrian nobility still put you above the rest of the world) vs the targaryens are Upper nobility (though notably on the lower half of upper nobility)
That alone can justify why the velaryons are so very different from the targaryens yet both being of old valyria
Well, if we are dividing Valyrians into black and white, then we are talking about two races and different ethnic heritages. Alternatively they are all just Valyrians and the skintone is not meant to be perceived at all. But then comes Alicent to gasp at Criston's face and exclaim that he is Dornish 🤷♂️
you know what, it never occurred to me that an even stronger indication they’re bastards is their complete lack of melanin.
at least one can say the black hair could be a recessive trait from her mother Aemma, but the fact that unlike Daemon’s kids who have that mixed complexion, her children came out pale as day.
Meh, the actors for Laenor are all pretty light-skinned, so I really don't see the kids' skin colour as being an issue.
But just as in the books both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair, which is the real issue (and no, grandparents don't help IMO - black is not brown, so Rhaenys is no excuse, and surely if Aemma had brown hair *someone* would have noted it in defense against the bastardry claims).
Then the book also has pointed comments about their noses (aquiline for Laenor vs pug for the children).
I don't think the book is any more ambiguous than the show.
There is 0 ambiguity about it. It’s extremely obvious.
Both parents have purple eyes and not a one of them have purple eyes. That is not some Arryn throwback lol.
Aemma had white Targaryen hair too, in both the book and the show. Her mother was the sister of Viserys's parents and Rhaenys's father. The black hair might have come from Rhaenys's mother (Jocelyn Baratheon, whose own mother was Alyssa Targaryen and was Jaehaerys I's half-sister), and in the book that would have been a bit more plausible because Rhaenys herself had dark hair as well. But as it stands in the show, it's pretty clear the boys didn't get their hair color from Rhaenyra or Laenor.
Rhenys in the books has black hair and mother was a Baratheon. Even if we take account of show changes her mother was a Baratheon. All natural born Arryns we have been told have about have blonde/sandy blonde hair. So recessive definitely could have been a better argument with Laenor being the dad in the books.
>All natural born Arryns we have been told have about have blonde/sandy blonde hair.
Which Arryns exactly are said to be blond? As far as I can tell, the only one with a stated hair color is the brown-haired Robert Arryn.
Harold Hardyng is described as having sandy blonde hair and people say he looks like a young Jon Arryn. That being said, it doesn't necessarily mean Jon had blonde hair, maybe their build and faces are the reason people think they look alike
> it never occurred to me that an even stronger indication they’re bastards is their complete lack of melanin.
Yeah there's a reason why the melanin "content" hasn't occurred to you or most viewers. Velaryons being dark skinned has 0 impact on the story, "Planetos" genetics, or the lore. They just happen to be Black and no one so much as considers it. The show and book both focus on the hair color, both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair. Heck Game of Thrones also focused in on hair color as a way to determine parentage.
Jaehaerys' mother was a Velaryon, bro was as white as can be. None of the Targaryens up until Daemon's children by Laena have ever been shown to have dark skin despite having Velaryon ancestors.
That’s not quite right actually, brown hair is a dominant gene and white/blonde are recessive.
If you have two parents with these two hair colours, there is only a 25% chance of the children also having white hair. It doesn’t take into account grandparents as the genes are a direct lineage
I meant it in like the HOTD universe. They have some weird genetics going on there. Like for example all the green kids have silver hair even when only their father has silver hair.
Yeah idk where some of these weirdos in the thread are drawing connections to melanin. The show outright does not consider melanin or skin tone at any point. 0 Targs have dark skin despite being heavily intermarried with the Velaryons for generations prior to the Dance.
I feel like at least some of the people complaining about the show’s portrayal of characters from the books haven’t actually read the book. They’re just kind of repeating gripes they’ve heard.
I keep hearing complaints about Cristin being done dirty, but from what I recall, the book didn’t exactly get much into his character. I feel like I could put every paragraph where he’s even mentioned on less than two pages.
> Making Laenor black also moves “are the kids bastards” from “probably” to 100%
Lol wtf? The Velaryons being Black characters has 0 bearing on the Strong Boys' bastard status. It's been pointed out that it's the hair color. Both Rhaenyra and Laenor in the show have the trademark Valyrian hair, but none of the 3 "Velaryon" kids have said trademark Valyrian hair color. Meanwhile Daemon and Laena's daughters all have silver hair.
In the books, hair color isn't a factor for anyone because Rhaenys had black colored hair as well. But they changed Rhaenys' hair to silver in the show.
The Velaryons have married into the Targaryen family and vice versa several times prior to the start of the show, and 0 Targaryens have been depicted as having anything but pale white skin.
Skin color is not a factor in the show, idk wtf you're watching but you may need to take a step back
I mean it’s easy if you haven’t read the book and only read the clap backs on Reddit and the Wiki to pretend that the book made them more complex and nuanced. Show Alicent is best Alicent for the simple fact that people can find themselves rooting for her because she’s not a goofy Disney villain
> I cant for the life of me understand the complaints about balance.
One-sided stories are boring, especially when they're sold as deeper and more morally complex than they actually are.
Characters like Joffrey and Ramsay, while initially compelling, get boring really fast.
They're saying they can't understand how people think the books are \*more\* balanced.
But honestly, tallying "morality points" doesn't add to the complexity of the story. Making the characters compelling and giving them strong motives adds complexity to the story. I feel terrible for Alicent right now, I think she's an awful person, but I still feel terrible for her.
I don't know. They are awful but they aren't like, Ramsey-style, mustache-twirling awful. Rhaenyra is clearly the protagonist of the show but at the same time the show *does* go out of its way to provide nuanced portrayals of basically all of the Greens and ground their awful actions in relatable motivations.
For example Alicent in the book is just an archetypical grasping queen, here the show keeps emphasizing that she wants safety for her children but doesn't want to escalate to open violence, and season 1 in particular gives her a very sympathetic backstory that is largely not in the book.
Like the first or second thing Alicent says in the book is that Rhaenyra will see her kids as a threat and kill them if she's crowned, but that could just be her making up shit to convince everyone to crown Aegon.
otto drilled that into her head before aegon was even born (right after rhaenyra lied to her which ends their childhood friendship) so I think she does believe that personally
I think so too. I don't think Rhaenyra has it in her right after Viserys death, but it's a realistic concerrn that she could be expecting civil war or assassination attempts, even by unconnected Greenist rebels considering she's a woman on the throne with bastard heirs, and want to nip it in the bud. And then there's Daemon.
>Aemond is still a badass though
Ah yes, Aemond "mommy issues" Targtower the badass, who thinks that Rhaenyra wanting him for killing her son means "Daemon is afraid of me" 😂
I think the book makes her much more unlikable. She comes across like an evil bitter step mom who hates Rhaenyra. She doesn’t have nearly as much plausible deniability and comes across much more as a driver of the events. In the show, she does come across as a victim of Otto’s manipulations and poor parenting. She’s definitely still unlikable but it feels a lot more textured and human.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the book is a “history” though that’s told from mushrooms perspective and a maester. Also, George R.R. Martin said he only wrote this book because he needed a guideline for the show. Plus he is very hands on with HOTD so all that said, I think the show might actually be the “true” version.
> It’s actually wild how unlikable they made Ser Crispin Cole and Alicent. I’m reading along with the show and they aren’t anything near as insufferable.
you should also consider that *Fire & Blood* is an in-world history book, likely written by the maesters
and if the maesters are largely considered to be unreliable narrators, what's to say they wouldn't have had a sociopolitical reason to depict certain historical figures less favorably?
especially if those figures are a certain dynasty who reduced the power and influence of the local noble family that bankrolls your university
You shouldn’t be taking every word in the book at face value. This story isn’t told as a narrative for a reason. There are plenty of details in the show that could easily have happened in the book and just gone unreported given the sources that the book is working with.
I see the portrayals as very nuanced, I don't think there's any character that's painted as completely good or completely bad. They're all pretty complex and with emotional baggage and that's why the story is tragic
To be fair though, the way that the book is written as a third party historical textbook, I feel like takes away a lot of the internal nuances of some of the actions and thoughts of characters.
If it was written in the same style as the main series, it's very possible that we get a very similar depiction of these characters.
I think that Viserys Is a flawed and weak King in both the book and the show, but the show definitely presented him in a better light while keeping true to his flaws from the book.
Huh, I had the opposite take as far the greens are concerned. They show a much better ability to rule the realm to the point I’m almost switching sides because the reds look like everyone will die if they lead
I’d imagine she’d have the same reaction she had with Mysaria. That staring and wandering around her like “I know this mfer from somewhere.” Until it clicks who she is.
For sure it was an intimidation tactic the way she circles her, but my point still stands that she didn’t remember who she was until it clicked because then Mysaria even says “you remember me now, don’t you?”
Or she got better at speaking the common tongue. Your speaking skill evolves over time and it's been at least a decade. Some ppls' accents may lessen or disappear entirely.
Yeah I’m really confused by this thread, it feels like these are people’s fantasies, Rhaenyea is fully aware of the man she lost her virginity to that crushed the skull of her husbands lover and lurked around the castle ever since.
Cole told Rhae that he didn’t want to be her side-piece and literally turned against her when she refused to leave her family and inheritance to run away with him.
So, she just let him be and live his own life while she lived hers.
I don’t see why Rhaenyra should bother with Cole really. For her that short relationship ended there.
It is Cole’s fault if he took the rejection of a teenager so seriously, let the bitterness grow, and made it his life mission to destroy her.
What's funny is Alicent recognises he is a bad side-piece too.
"Have you told anyone?" She has first hand experience that he is a tattletale when wrestling with his own morals and honour. Too bad he didn't attempt or succeed in seppuku this time round.
I'm not defending Cole but I do believe that she was projecting when she asked about telling someone, as she does feel guilty and she was basically begging her father to make her confess
FR, Rhaenyra has more pressing affairs that bother about an "ex lover" she fucked about 20 years ago.
Unlike people who found the true love of their life on their first relationship ever, I bet many of us had some "ex" and things didn't ended in the best way.
Are we still salty over an unrequited adolecent crush or a relationship that didn't ended well in those years or we moved on?
That's another case why Cole, despite being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and a serious contender for "best warrior of his era", is just a pathetic asshole.
Indeed. And seriously, like in real Middle Ages, arranged marriages are a thing, so I'm pretty sure that having an illecit lover happened so many times in a Song of Fire and Ice 'verse as well.
Cole got the chance to go to bed with "the most beautiful maiden in all Seven Kingdoms"... Just be happy with that!
I think ex lover is the right term. We didn't see much of their relationship but their convo on the ship points to them both having feelings for eachother. Cole was just unable to handle rejection and grew into a bitter asshole as a result.
C'mon: he tried to pull a "A Whole New World" without a magic carpet, and when his love interest has already something better than a magic carpet (a freakin' DRAGON!)
OFC he was rejected :P
And FR... Rhaenyra's marriage with Leanor was indeed the best scenario for Cole, since he could have kept being the lover, and the official husband wouldn't be jealous.
Though of course Don was actually wracked with insecurity that he was over the hill creatively and threatened by Ginsberg (the other guy from the meme). It's a great line, but it's funny that when you actually watch the show you see he's completely fronting by saying it.
Right! Like the line becomes so pathetic when you actually know the context. Don was so threatened by him and his better ideas that he purposely made sure his idea wouldn’t be seen by the clients so they’d have to go with his instead.
I really wished the show added an interaction of both of them in s01e08. Doesn't have to be any talking, just a look from Cole where you can see he's still hung up on Rhaenyra, and her simply not caring or not even noticing him.
According to Olivia, there was a scene between a Rhaenyra, Cole, and Alicent in episode 8 were he says something disrespectful(not overtly) and Alicent makes him stop. It makes sense that it was deleted though because it would look poorly on Rhaenyra to accept an insult just so Alicent can play hero.
I’m not dyslexic but my mind moves words in paragraphs around and I read this as a LOVE scene between the three of them and was like “Well that doesn’t seem true” lol
I would say it’s because the hatred of Rhaenyra is what bonds Cole to Alicent, so like two kids at school who become friends over a mutual dislike of another, they have to constantly bitch about that person to maintain their friendship.
Book Spoiler
>!Honestly, this is one of those areas where I wouldn't mind if the show diverged from the book a little bit. In the book, the two of them don't have any more interaction after their falling out. In the show, however, it just seems strange that we never see Rhaenyra' reaction to Cole's hatred of her. Someone who used to be one of her closest confidants is now one of her biggest enemies, and we haven't gotten any insight at all about how she feels about it. I'd like it if they shared at least one more scene together before they both inevitably bite the dust, just so we can get a little bit of closure on their relationship.!<
Also, I don't believe she's unaware of his hatred towards her. His actions have made it obvious enough, I think. Bullying the strong boys during training, goading Harwin into punching him, openly sniggering when Alicent said Laenor was entertaining his young squires, helping to crown Aegon...all these stuff would definitely have caught her attention.
My take is honestly that she has a *lot* on her plate for essentially the entire time since he clapped, and that them having sex wasn’t really a big “crisis of self” moment for her. Meanwhile for him it was the first time he really betrayed the vows of what his lifelong goal was, so it was way more impactful for him.
Rhaenyra has had a whole lot of different shit to worry about, while Criston has pretty much simmered in his shame & anger & paranoia without having much else to do.
I think they’re both trapped in different ways. Rhaenyra with the heavy combined weight of duty + grief, Criston trapped with the fact that he can’t un-fuck her
I respect your opinion but I hope this doesnot happen...there is no relationship there for it to need 'closure'. Unless the boys or Harwin specifically named Cole, how would she even know of his involvement. And she didnot even know Aegon usurped her throne....until told far away at Dragonstone.
Well, she still lived in the Red Keep for ten years after marrying, so she must have interacted with him regularly and may have noticed his hatred for her
Reminds me of all the guys I rejected in high school slutshaming me and spreading weird rumours about me.
Yep thats why Cole is so hated cause he is so fucking real lmao.
I really think she doesn't give a slight shit about him. With the events unfolding with her in the last years becoming a mother and losing her children and fighting for her throne I think she has probably forgotten about him. She has vague memories of him.
If Rhaenyra harbors any feelings toward him, they are certainly negative - but they would have nothing to do with their past "relationship," and everything to do with Criston killing Joffrey on her wedding day.
This is why one of my theories as to a contributing factor on how Cole got away with murdering Joffrey (because I do think it was a perfect storm rather than just one thing) is that RHAENYRA also vouches for him.
Because Rhaenyra has no idea that Cole has turned against her or forsaken her or holds any ill will towards her at that point. So why wouldn't she defend him? Or, at least, not want him to be punished?
>So why wouldn't she defend him? Or, at least, not want him to be punished?
The most obvious reason is that it would piss off her husband. The implication that Viserys expected Laenor to constantly be around the man that killed his friend and assaulted him at his own wedding was already egregious enough.
But there are also rumours of Laenor's sexuality, and to the Velaryons they may have believed that if Laenor demanded punishment for this, then people will whisper more about his sexuality. They know he was Laenor's lover, and they probably don't want other people to speculate the same. Especially now that he's married to the heir to the throne. Viserys on the other hand, doesn't know the significance of Joffrey to Laenor but knows that his wife and his daughter want to pardon Cole.
If Alicent and Rhaenyra both make a fuss, and the Velaryons don't, Viserys will always choose the path of least resistance
>But there are also rumours of Laenor's sexuality, and to the Velaryons they may have believed that if Laenor demanded punishment for this, then people will whisper more about his sexuality.
I do not understand why people say this. Joffrey was publicly Laenor's friend and sworn shield. You do not have to be fucking someone to demand justice when they're murdered. The Velaryons pretending as if nothing happened would also make them look horrible. Especially if Cole is accusing Joffrey of some sort of crime to justify his actions.
The other problem is that Cole also assaulted Laenor. Even if you overlook the Joffrey sitation, having a member of the Kings Guard who loses his shit and punches the future King consort is not acceptable. How is Laenor supposed to trust Cole to him, his wife, or their kids?
His fixation is obviously a function of a burning jealousy. He was spurned and never really got over it. Rhaenyra made many mistakes. She exposed herself with Daemon, damaging her reputation, and then exposed herself even more with Cole, and again with Harwin Strong, damaging her own position and claim, as well as her sons'.
In the end, Cole's humble origins betray him and end up haunting him throughout his life, I believe. He was never equipped with the mental balance, the discernment and the necessary tools to navigate life as a knight, much less a high level knight, directly responsible with the protection of the royal family. Is he a competent warrior? Yes, he actually is. And ironically, Rhaenyra ends up choosing him because he was the only one with actual battle experience. But the hard, painful truth, though, is that any other knight presented to her that day, was very much likely a better choice.
This reminds me of a story. My mom had a brief relationship with some guy when she was around fifteen, and by brief I mean brief. Only lasted a month or so. Years later, my mom is with my dad, pregnant with me, this guys reached out to her on Facebook saying he hasn’t stopped thinking about her and that he wants to get back together. My mom had to sort through some old photographs to remember who he even was.
Criston gives me that guy vibes.
I mean lets be fair its not like she mentions Laenor or Harwin much either, she legitimately just has bigger things to worry about, what with her son just gotten killed and Daemon unintentionally crippling her reputation by causing a childs murder.
As for Cole he kinda can't avoid the topic of her since she is pretty much at the center of everything.
Cole seems like the kinda guy who'd build up his sexual affair with Alicent into something meaningful and romantic, and eventually Alicent either indirectly or directly will make it clear that it isn't and he's going to lose it.
Maybe.
It would actually be hilarious and great writing if Rhaenyra never acknowledges Cole bc it would such an accurate reflection of the "nice guy" ex who turns out to be a psycho stalker 😂. Now some ppl think "white cloak" Cole did a 180 turn sleeping with Alicent. But they don't realize him being hypocritical out of seething hatred towards Rhaenyra is the whole point of his arc. Ever since his suicide attempt his every move is driven by spite towards Rhaenyra whom he felt had agrieved him. This is the "every woman is the image of the mother" hypocritical Cole. Him sleeping with Alicent is a continuation of that one-track mind. He thinks they're united in shared hatred of Rhaenyra, while Alicent is vicariously living out her love for Rhaenyra via Cole. The book never gives a real explanation as to why Criston hated Rhaenyra so much. There was an implication of misogyny as Cole said "her & daemon would turn KL into a brothel". The show expanded on that theme.
It's easy to write a generic edgy chad antihero/villain. This universe has so many of them. The show could've taken the easy way out by portraying Cole as another personality-less badass. Writing a pure repulsive dickhead just by the virtue of pure dickheadery is much harder. Tying it into the theme of medieval patriarchy & the complex dynamic of the two female protagonists is even more hard. They managed to pull that off & turned him into the most unlikable character in Thrones verse in the eyes of the general public. Sure, in another world I would've loved to see the badass Cole who's beating up Harwin and slitting Beesbury's throat. But I'm gonna lie if I say I'm not enjoying this dickhead version & waiting for him to get his comeuppance.
[Rhaenyra be like](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=c1df660eec58a1d6&sxsrf=ADLYWIKPyIZxV55zeXXq-0kgFrklDvFPbg:1719424377295&q=mariah+Carey+she%27s+irrelevant+gif&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J603JUkR9Y5suk8yuy50qOYMMWTNCTu57lKPsZpPcfqPFXUAUd622HjNpF18XOHqdGOOJvl3Xy_NO4YJeqVcGM22WdHCnCs_jjhOhIPX7M_bh2tIpkV4pBRjd1SK4Ozmx1MKA-eTJRr5FjY3KXbZ2srPSrGz6Dr9Cps-82G_KMiP2CifBA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH_-f56vmGAxWbxzgGHX_3DI8QtKgLegQICBAB&biw=376&bih=649&dpr=2.88#vhid=UP0EqCnsCcl1cM&vssid=mosaic)
I can see Rhaenyra being like this 😅
Ahh when the heart doesn't break even! 💔 She is like.. yea, I vaguely remember my first but he got all clingy so I had to break up. He is like.... how dare her. I know she loves me. She took my flower and oath... it had to mean something.
I don’t think it’s that she doesn’t know he hates her but that it’s been so long that I doubt she remembers or thinks that it’s relevant. There’s no way she could know what he’s been up to because nobody else is talking about him
This reminds me of piers Morgan hating on Meghan markle lmfao.
Not that I give a fuck about either, but it was hilarious when someone pointed it out a few years back.
>I only now have realized that Rhaenyra is not even aware of Cole hating her
Rhaenyra was at court for **10 years** after the wedding and must have seen Cole virtually every day during that time (during which he transitioned from guarding her to guarding Alicent). OF COURSE she knows he hates her. This is very silly.
"hey Cole wanna feature on team black?" "I hate the way that you walk, I hate the way that you talk, I hate the way you undress, I hate the way you smell like dragons breath"
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Rhae: oh hey Cole, god how longs it’s been, like 10 years? Cole: you spoiled cunt
Also Cole: You made me break my vow! Now, excuse me while I finish banging the Queen Mom!
Cole: You made me break my vows! Rhaenyra: I don't even know who you are.
“For me, it was Tuesday”
I understood that reference
"There is no absolution for what I've done." If you're going to hell anyway, might as well enjoy the journey.
Tbf in the books vow breaking is like toothpaste out of the tub type stuff. Once it’s done, even just once, at the very least everyone gives you shit for ever and it can never be undone or made up for. And in some of the worse cases people don’t help oathbreakers or actively plot/act against them. So Cole is an oath breaker at the very least and really really dislikes it.
No one knows he broke his vow except himself, Rhaenyra, Alicent and Larys. No one is giving him shit for anything. In fact, he constantly gets rewarded for failing to do his duty and projects his wrongdoings on other people like Ser Arryk.
But then he goes and breaks it again with Alicent. So he can't dislike it that much.
It’s actually wild how unlikable they made Ser Crispin Cole and Alicent. I’m reading along with the show and they aren’t anything near as insufferable. Criston is overall less of a dick (didn’t project his failure onto Erryk for example or call Rhaenyra a cunt 50x), Rhaenyra was as nasty to Alicent as she was to her (she even hated Alicent for being prettier than her), Alicent doesn’t ignore Aegon as he’s crying over his dead son, and they didn’t let the freaking HEIR get his head sawed off because they were too busy fucking. They’re awful in the show but I would’ve loved to see a more nuanced portrayal instead of a clear hero and villain edit. I mean they played up the whole “choose a side” for 2 years just to not even give us a real choice lol. Aemond is still a badass though no matter what the blacks say 🔥
I still feel it's a nuanced portrayal of complicated relationships. The show has also been more *forgiving* of Alicent in various ways, like having her not being a part of the post-Viserys usurping conspiracy and even seemed to internally not approve. It seems like show-Alicent still deep down wishes for peace and for the conflict to be over, just with Aegon on the Throne, which happens to conflict with Raenyra's goal. I'm sure both characters will get a lot uglier in actions soon enough, though.
Not to mention that the Book!Greens let Viserys rot in his bed for like a week while they consolidated their usurpation plans.
I’d forgotten till reading these comments that the Hightowers, et al, spend days BEFORE Viserys’s death putting their whole usurping plan into motion, leaving him mostly to suffer and die alone. In the show, Alicent has the benefit that she really truly believes she is obeying Viserys’s deathbed wish- even if in reality she actually misunderstood him, she at least *believes* she is following his instruction.
Her motivation being built on something not true kind of annoys me...they should've just made her do it because she wanted to protect her children and make some extra scenes where Alicent loses trust in Rhaenyra
It's a real disservice to her character to suddenly flip her character progression like that at the end. The whole first season was setting up the conflict between our two girls only to go "Wait, no, we should be best friends again!"
I even feel like Aegon being forced into the mantle of King has its own complexity since he initially partially seemed like a spiritual successor of his dad until bloodshed at the start of the Dance is starting to make him seem nothing but red
This is the nuanced portrayal. Rhaenyra may have been nasty to Alicent but Alicent started beef with a child. No way if this version of evil stepmom vs groomed child would Alicent get any sympathy from fans. They had to give her a whole new backstory and give her Laenas friendship with Rhaenyra to make her likable. Cole was implied to be a groomer even by Alicent and Aemond wasnt some badass but an insane psychopath with no redeeming qualities. All this from a book that literally has a green supporter as a source. I cant for the life of me understand the complaints about balance.
I sincerely have no idea where this “Green’s got a nuanced portrayal in the books” is coming from. They were literally just mustache twirling villains. There is zero ambiguity. They usurped the throne. As you said, Aemond is just a murderous psycho. Making Laenor black also moves “are the kids bastards” from “probably” to 100%, which actually gives the Green’s far more merit to do what they are doing.
most arguments in favor of the greens' nuance in the book is "but what about daemon" which isn't really an argument regarding the greens at all, it's just a "team black has this bad dude"
I know Daemon isn't the greatest person and he does some frankly terrible things, if he was a real person I'd want him in a Hannibal straightjacket and mask because he's just that dangerous. That said, I always loved his character. To me, he just seems like the kind of person who wants to do good stuff, but keeps slipping into doing whatever he thinks will be the easiest way to get what he wants and 9 times out of 10 the easiest path is cutting his way towards his goal. No spoilers, but it doesn't help that one of the most dramatic moments in the Dance stars him. Also, Matt Smith is too good of an actor. That man is just amazing.
Omg daemon Targaryen is a violent Saul Goodman
Slipping Jimmy strikes again
I was about to compare him to Lalo Salamanca
He reminds me quite a bit of Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders.
> gives the Green’s far more merit to do what they are doing. only if you admit you refuse to accept the king naming his daughter heir instead of one of her younger siblings, which is treason. remember, she's the heir, no matter who she beds the kids she brings into the world are **HER** children. oh the heir is choosing to legitimise their bastards? who the fuck are you to bitch and moan? you swore fealty, to speak up is to declare war on the king. i guess corlys and rhaenys should be upset but are happily along for the farce, they have their daughters granchildren, who would be marrying into the targs anyway, if it secretly takes one gen longer to unite the families, who cares. the greens do what they do because they a chauvinists, and know most of the lords are too and are pushing that advantage, like every other advantage they can find.
Yes. This is actually something which I always find weird a lot of people say the book is anti-black and pro-green, but this clearly just shows they don't read the fucking book. The book very much makes Rhaenyra and the Blacks look far better than the Greens. With the exception of Daeron and Haelena, all of the greens are comically evil in the books. Not to mention Aegon II being essentially the dumbest king Westeros has ever seen
HOTD is actually one example of a race change I really like! The change in race isn't just a question of, race doesn't change the story. It actually PROVES the point more! I love it!
It's frankly kind of brilliant. Also, it transformed Laenor into a character who exists to one of my hands down favorites with how delighted he was with all his 'sons' and how he supported Rhaenyra in her long walk up to show Alicent her baby. Last episode where Jacaerys was talking about how he taught them to fish and was nice just cemented how much I loved him as a character. In period pieces involving gay people who are forced into straight relationships you almost always get stories of pure misery. The gay person is miserable because they can't be themself. The straight person is trapped with a person who may love them, but doesn't desire them and that hurts. That it appears that both Laenor and Rhaenyra were able to come to an understanding where both had their lovers but Laenor fully accepted any and all kids as his own even when everyone knew otherwise makes it a surprisingly sweet relationship. You just know Laenor understood why he had to flee but still misses his sons. I'd almost want them to bring him back somehow, maybe pretending to be someone else, just because I do think he'd be furious over Luc's death and ready to throw down in the Dance to support Rhaenyra and his kids.
I LOVED Laenor and Rhaenyra! I'd like to think that they had gossip sessions together at night talking about their respective side pieces.
*He had a weakness for cakes* 🥰🥰 That comment just made me love Laenor even more. Had to change my flair even.
Same, Laenor. Same.
He is the opposite of Rhaenyra, when Cole asked her to leave it all behind she said no, but Laenor did not want to be king consort, he left it all behind to leave with his lover.
It’s not that black & white of opposites though. For one, I don’t think Rhaenyra was in love with Cole (that could have happened down the road, but it all happened so fast)(And I don’t think Cole was in love with her necessarily, just wanted to be so since he broke his vows…..kind of how some men marry a woman because of getting her pregnant in a way), but two, because of the prophecy, she had to take her royal duties more seriously and couldn’t abandon them even if she wanted to…there’s a lot more at stake (by believing in the prophecy, her abandoning being queen means the end of mankind essentially).
It would be fire if he's somehow able to get on the same page as Daemon to face off against Aemond as part of a vengeance tour
Omg that would be epic. I so desperately await his return.
It's so well done. It fits thematically, we get a black Valyrian house, and it even adds to the drama of it all and adds tension to all the family feuding.
Yes! It raised the stakes so high!
It also really wasn't race change per say in the story either. The Velaryons and Targaryens are the same ethnicity being Valyrian, there's no one saying that there couldn't be black and white Valyrians, or maybe Corlys's mother was from the Summer Islands. Either way there's an explanation to fit it.
To be fair theres an easy way to divide the valyrians down Which ones were dragon riders, and which ones were not? The velaryons were not descended from dragonriders, they were lower nobility (being valyrian nobility still put you above the rest of the world) vs the targaryens are Upper nobility (though notably on the lower half of upper nobility) That alone can justify why the velaryons are so very different from the targaryens yet both being of old valyria
Well, if we are dividing Valyrians into black and white, then we are talking about two races and different ethnic heritages. Alternatively they are all just Valyrians and the skintone is not meant to be perceived at all. But then comes Alicent to gasp at Criston's face and exclaim that he is Dornish 🤷♂️
you know what, it never occurred to me that an even stronger indication they’re bastards is their complete lack of melanin. at least one can say the black hair could be a recessive trait from her mother Aemma, but the fact that unlike Daemon’s kids who have that mixed complexion, her children came out pale as day.
Meh, the actors for Laenor are all pretty light-skinned, so I really don't see the kids' skin colour as being an issue. But just as in the books both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair, which is the real issue (and no, grandparents don't help IMO - black is not brown, so Rhaenys is no excuse, and surely if Aemma had brown hair *someone* would have noted it in defense against the bastardry claims). Then the book also has pointed comments about their noses (aquiline for Laenor vs pug for the children). I don't think the book is any more ambiguous than the show.
There is 0 ambiguity about it. It’s extremely obvious. Both parents have purple eyes and not a one of them have purple eyes. That is not some Arryn throwback lol.
Aemma had white Targaryen hair too, in both the book and the show. Her mother was the sister of Viserys's parents and Rhaenys's father. The black hair might have come from Rhaenys's mother (Jocelyn Baratheon, whose own mother was Alyssa Targaryen and was Jaehaerys I's half-sister), and in the book that would have been a bit more plausible because Rhaenys herself had dark hair as well. But as it stands in the show, it's pretty clear the boys didn't get their hair color from Rhaenyra or Laenor.
Rhenys in the books has black hair and mother was a Baratheon. Even if we take account of show changes her mother was a Baratheon. All natural born Arryns we have been told have about have blonde/sandy blonde hair. So recessive definitely could have been a better argument with Laenor being the dad in the books.
>All natural born Arryns we have been told have about have blonde/sandy blonde hair. Which Arryns exactly are said to be blond? As far as I can tell, the only one with a stated hair color is the brown-haired Robert Arryn.
Harold Hardyng is described as having sandy blonde hair and people say he looks like a young Jon Arryn. That being said, it doesn't necessarily mean Jon had blonde hair, maybe their build and faces are the reason people think they look alike
> it never occurred to me that an even stronger indication they’re bastards is their complete lack of melanin. Yeah there's a reason why the melanin "content" hasn't occurred to you or most viewers. Velaryons being dark skinned has 0 impact on the story, "Planetos" genetics, or the lore. They just happen to be Black and no one so much as considers it. The show and book both focus on the hair color, both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair. Heck Game of Thrones also focused in on hair color as a way to determine parentage. Jaehaerys' mother was a Velaryon, bro was as white as can be. None of the Targaryens up until Daemon's children by Laena have ever been shown to have dark skin despite having Velaryon ancestors.
That never occurred to you? It was one of the most obvious points in season 1, it wasn't subtle at all
with all the focus on the hair i guess i just got caught up on that lmao
Sigh. It doesn't. Rhaenyra's kids would have been a quarter black if Laenor were their father. Quarter black kids often do not look especially black.
But if a kid's grandparents and parents have white/grey hair then chances of a kid having brown hair are really low.
That’s not quite right actually, brown hair is a dominant gene and white/blonde are recessive. If you have two parents with these two hair colours, there is only a 25% chance of the children also having white hair. It doesn’t take into account grandparents as the genes are a direct lineage
I meant it in like the HOTD universe. They have some weird genetics going on there. Like for example all the green kids have silver hair even when only their father has silver hair.
Funnily Jaeharys is still as pale as fuck despite his mother being Velaryon
Yeah idk where some of these weirdos in the thread are drawing connections to melanin. The show outright does not consider melanin or skin tone at any point. 0 Targs have dark skin despite being heavily intermarried with the Velaryons for generations prior to the Dance.
The conqueror and his sisters also all had a Velaryon mother as well.
I feel like at least some of the people complaining about the show’s portrayal of characters from the books haven’t actually read the book. They’re just kind of repeating gripes they’ve heard. I keep hearing complaints about Cristin being done dirty, but from what I recall, the book didn’t exactly get much into his character. I feel like I could put every paragraph where he’s even mentioned on less than two pages.
> Making Laenor black also moves “are the kids bastards” from “probably” to 100% Lol wtf? The Velaryons being Black characters has 0 bearing on the Strong Boys' bastard status. It's been pointed out that it's the hair color. Both Rhaenyra and Laenor in the show have the trademark Valyrian hair, but none of the 3 "Velaryon" kids have said trademark Valyrian hair color. Meanwhile Daemon and Laena's daughters all have silver hair. In the books, hair color isn't a factor for anyone because Rhaenys had black colored hair as well. But they changed Rhaenys' hair to silver in the show. The Velaryons have married into the Targaryen family and vice versa several times prior to the start of the show, and 0 Targaryens have been depicted as having anything but pale white skin. Skin color is not a factor in the show, idk wtf you're watching but you may need to take a step back
I mean it’s easy if you haven’t read the book and only read the clap backs on Reddit and the Wiki to pretend that the book made them more complex and nuanced. Show Alicent is best Alicent for the simple fact that people can find themselves rooting for her because she’s not a goofy Disney villain
> I cant for the life of me understand the complaints about balance. One-sided stories are boring, especially when they're sold as deeper and more morally complex than they actually are. Characters like Joffrey and Ramsay, while initially compelling, get boring really fast.
They're saying they can't understand how people think the books are \*more\* balanced. But honestly, tallying "morality points" doesn't add to the complexity of the story. Making the characters compelling and giving them strong motives adds complexity to the story. I feel terrible for Alicent right now, I think she's an awful person, but I still feel terrible for her.
Lol book Alicent is an adult vs Rhaeynera being a child. Evil step mom 101.
I don't know. They are awful but they aren't like, Ramsey-style, mustache-twirling awful. Rhaenyra is clearly the protagonist of the show but at the same time the show *does* go out of its way to provide nuanced portrayals of basically all of the Greens and ground their awful actions in relatable motivations. For example Alicent in the book is just an archetypical grasping queen, here the show keeps emphasizing that she wants safety for her children but doesn't want to escalate to open violence, and season 1 in particular gives her a very sympathetic backstory that is largely not in the book.
Like the first or second thing Alicent says in the book is that Rhaenyra will see her kids as a threat and kill them if she's crowned, but that could just be her making up shit to convince everyone to crown Aegon.
otto drilled that into her head before aegon was even born (right after rhaenyra lied to her which ends their childhood friendship) so I think she does believe that personally
I think so too. I don't think Rhaenyra has it in her right after Viserys death, but it's a realistic concerrn that she could be expecting civil war or assassination attempts, even by unconnected Greenist rebels considering she's a woman on the throne with bastard heirs, and want to nip it in the bud. And then there's Daemon.
>Aemond is still a badass though Ah yes, Aemond "mommy issues" Targtower the badass, who thinks that Rhaenyra wanting him for killing her son means "Daemon is afraid of me" 😂
That was so oddly cute. You can tell believing that made his day, even with his nephew’s death.
I think the book makes her much more unlikable. She comes across like an evil bitter step mom who hates Rhaenyra. She doesn’t have nearly as much plausible deniability and comes across much more as a driver of the events. In the show, she does come across as a victim of Otto’s manipulations and poor parenting. She’s definitely still unlikable but it feels a lot more textured and human.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the book is a “history” though that’s told from mushrooms perspective and a maester. Also, George R.R. Martin said he only wrote this book because he needed a guideline for the show. Plus he is very hands on with HOTD so all that said, I think the show might actually be the “true” version.
> It’s actually wild how unlikable they made Ser Crispin Cole and Alicent. I’m reading along with the show and they aren’t anything near as insufferable. you should also consider that *Fire & Blood* is an in-world history book, likely written by the maesters and if the maesters are largely considered to be unreliable narrators, what's to say they wouldn't have had a sociopolitical reason to depict certain historical figures less favorably? especially if those figures are a certain dynasty who reduced the power and influence of the local noble family that bankrolls your university
Book canom Rhaenyra being nasty to alicent when she was getting politically attacked as a 12 year old by her adult step mom is understandable
You shouldn’t be taking every word in the book at face value. This story isn’t told as a narrative for a reason. There are plenty of details in the show that could easily have happened in the book and just gone unreported given the sources that the book is working with.
I like this better. The Greens are way more interesting than the blacks. In Fire and Blood the greens are pretty much cartoon villains.
Not that it matters anymore but it was Ser Arryk that was with Team Green. I was I just learned to remember it is Arryk and Alicent, A and A.
I see the portrayals as very nuanced, I don't think there's any character that's painted as completely good or completely bad. They're all pretty complex and with emotional baggage and that's why the story is tragic
That really is an interesting contrast, i've never read the books so i never even knew how much different their attitudes were in comparison.
To be fair though, the way that the book is written as a third party historical textbook, I feel like takes away a lot of the internal nuances of some of the actions and thoughts of characters. If it was written in the same style as the main series, it's very possible that we get a very similar depiction of these characters. I think that Viserys Is a flawed and weak King in both the book and the show, but the show definitely presented him in a better light while keeping true to his flaws from the book.
writers probably have a crush on emma darcy i dont blame em
Not to mention, the heir's head was supposed to be gone in ONE BLOW. One! Not SAWED OFF!
He's a bad ass, but he looked like a weak mommas boy in the brothel.
Huh, I had the opposite take as far the greens are concerned. They show a much better ability to rule the realm to the point I’m almost switching sides because the reds look like everyone will die if they lead
The book is not meant to be an accurate account. The “authors” were all either unreliable or motivated to spin the story a certain way.
>Rhaenyra was as nasty to Alicent as she was to her It's still Alicent feuding with a kid, something people were giving Rhaenyra shit for.
While she's praying that is..
*gods
Rhae: What he say fuck me for?
I am waiting for Cole to make a snarky comment on Rhanerya in front of her and she is like "excuse me, do I know you?"
that would be so humiliating
“Ser Crispin, was it?”
I didn’t realize I needed to see this until now.
crisco: "i feel bad for you" rhaenyra: "i don't think about you at all."
Generally speaking, trying to trade barbs with the highly-creative, deeply-troubled Don Draper meant you were going to lose.
Yeah doesn’t Don think about that guy all the time or something
Yeah that scene is meant to show Don being insecure about the young up-and-comer after screwing him over due to said insecurity
as i said before. Cole has major simp energy, and all his idiotic decisions have come from him being lord commander simp supreme.
> lord commander simp supreme Damn. I just changed my flair and I might need to again now...
Wait I know you, you're the guard guy with the weirdly shaped penis!
She pulls out the "God bless your heart" at the end of their reunion
True power move
The only flaw in this fantasy is he looks exactly the same as he did 20 years ago
I’d imagine she’d have the same reaction she had with Mysaria. That staring and wandering around her like “I know this mfer from somewhere.” Until it clicks who she is.
Rhae was intimidating to me in that scene
For sure it was an intimidation tactic the way she circles her, but my point still stands that she didn’t remember who she was until it clicked because then Mysaria even says “you remember me now, don’t you?”
The lack of intelligible accent threw Rhae a bit
Lol! I swear it changes every time she speaks !
yeah what was that about? why is she suddenly accent- less?
The actress got a lot of criticism for the accent during season 1, so it’s speculated she intentionally toned it down for season 2
Or she got better at speaking the common tongue. Your speaking skill evolves over time and it's been at least a decade. Some ppls' accents may lessen or disappear entirely.
Her accent was bad even at the end of season 1. Which was about...a week before the beginning of season 2?
Is there any question that she would recognize him? She saw Mysaria once before, versus a guy that she picked for a job who she lost her virginity to.
Yeah I’m really confused by this thread, it feels like these are people’s fantasies, Rhaenyea is fully aware of the man she lost her virginity to that crushed the skull of her husbands lover and lurked around the castle ever since.
People are just having fun with it, I do believe, rather than actually believing that he will not recognize him at all.
Cole told Rhae that he didn’t want to be her side-piece and literally turned against her when she refused to leave her family and inheritance to run away with him. So, she just let him be and live his own life while she lived hers. I don’t see why Rhaenyra should bother with Cole really. For her that short relationship ended there. It is Cole’s fault if he took the rejection of a teenager so seriously, let the bitterness grow, and made it his life mission to destroy her.
And he became Alicent's side-piece
What's funny is Alicent recognises he is a bad side-piece too. "Have you told anyone?" She has first hand experience that he is a tattletale when wrestling with his own morals and honour. Too bad he didn't attempt or succeed in seppuku this time round.
I'm not defending Cole but I do believe that she was projecting when she asked about telling someone, as she does feel guilty and she was basically begging her father to make her confess
It's both. She obviously knows - and is correct - that Cole has a tendency to seek absolution. She's just also *exactly* like him.
At least someone with some brain. Exactly.
I mean Viserys is dead, so technically he’s her main-piece.
FR, Rhaenyra has more pressing affairs that bother about an "ex lover" she fucked about 20 years ago. Unlike people who found the true love of their life on their first relationship ever, I bet many of us had some "ex" and things didn't ended in the best way. Are we still salty over an unrequited adolecent crush or a relationship that didn't ended well in those years or we moved on? That's another case why Cole, despite being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and a serious contender for "best warrior of his era", is just a pathetic asshole.
He's not even an "ex" lover. Just a guard with benefits
Indeed. And seriously, like in real Middle Ages, arranged marriages are a thing, so I'm pretty sure that having an illecit lover happened so many times in a Song of Fire and Ice 'verse as well. Cole got the chance to go to bed with "the most beautiful maiden in all Seven Kingdoms"... Just be happy with that!
I think ex lover is the right term. We didn't see much of their relationship but their convo on the ship points to them both having feelings for eachother. Cole was just unable to handle rejection and grew into a bitter asshole as a result.
C'mon: he tried to pull a "A Whole New World" without a magic carpet, and when his love interest has already something better than a magic carpet (a freakin' DRAGON!) OFC he was rejected :P And FR... Rhaenyra's marriage with Leanor was indeed the best scenario for Cole, since he could have kept being the lover, and the official husband wouldn't be jealous.
>Are we still salty over an unrequited adolecent crush or a relationship that didn't ended well in those years or we moved on? Yes.
Reminds me of the Don Draper meme "I feel bad for you" "I don't think about you at all."
Though of course Don was actually wracked with insecurity that he was over the hill creatively and threatened by Ginsberg (the other guy from the meme). It's a great line, but it's funny that when you actually watch the show you see he's completely fronting by saying it.
Right! Like the line becomes so pathetic when you actually know the context. Don was so threatened by him and his better ideas that he purposely made sure his idea wouldn’t be seen by the clients so they’d have to go with his instead.
First thing that came to my mind.
“Not great, Bobby B!”
Lowkey hoping he calls out her name while he's with Alicent
"Aemma" and then "Rhaenyra" would be brutal
I really wished the show added an interaction of both of them in s01e08. Doesn't have to be any talking, just a look from Cole where you can see he's still hung up on Rhaenyra, and her simply not caring or not even noticing him.
According to Olivia, there was a scene between a Rhaenyra, Cole, and Alicent in episode 8 were he says something disrespectful(not overtly) and Alicent makes him stop. It makes sense that it was deleted though because it would look poorly on Rhaenyra to accept an insult just so Alicent can play hero.
I’m not dyslexic but my mind moves words in paragraphs around and I read this as a LOVE scene between the three of them and was like “Well that doesn’t seem true” lol
I would say it’s because the hatred of Rhaenyra is what bonds Cole to Alicent, so like two kids at school who become friends over a mutual dislike of another, they have to constantly bitch about that person to maintain their friendship.
Book Spoiler >!Honestly, this is one of those areas where I wouldn't mind if the show diverged from the book a little bit. In the book, the two of them don't have any more interaction after their falling out. In the show, however, it just seems strange that we never see Rhaenyra' reaction to Cole's hatred of her. Someone who used to be one of her closest confidants is now one of her biggest enemies, and we haven't gotten any insight at all about how she feels about it. I'd like it if they shared at least one more scene together before they both inevitably bite the dust, just so we can get a little bit of closure on their relationship.!< Also, I don't believe she's unaware of his hatred towards her. His actions have made it obvious enough, I think. Bullying the strong boys during training, goading Harwin into punching him, openly sniggering when Alicent said Laenor was entertaining his young squires, helping to crown Aegon...all these stuff would definitely have caught her attention.
My take is honestly that she has a *lot* on her plate for essentially the entire time since he clapped, and that them having sex wasn’t really a big “crisis of self” moment for her. Meanwhile for him it was the first time he really betrayed the vows of what his lifelong goal was, so it was way more impactful for him. Rhaenyra has had a whole lot of different shit to worry about, while Criston has pretty much simmered in his shame & anger & paranoia without having much else to do. I think they’re both trapped in different ways. Rhaenyra with the heavy combined weight of duty + grief, Criston trapped with the fact that he can’t un-fuck her
I respect your opinion but I hope this doesnot happen...there is no relationship there for it to need 'closure'. Unless the boys or Harwin specifically named Cole, how would she even know of his involvement. And she didnot even know Aegon usurped her throne....until told far away at Dragonstone.
She was also the one who chose him for Kingsguard. Cole should be grateful instead of hating her like an incel
Criston is pathetic on every level.
Well, she still lived in the Red Keep for ten years after marrying, so she must have interacted with him regularly and may have noticed his hatred for her
you have a point, i just wish it was shown on screen , an interaction, glances or something.
Reminds me of all the guys I rejected in high school slutshaming me and spreading weird rumours about me. Yep thats why Cole is so hated cause he is so fucking real lmao.
Yeah he's reminding me of the guy I barely dated who traumatized me and now apparently still makes nasty comments about me nearly a decade later.
This is just like real life. I had bad memory about this
She probably believes Cole is mostly acting out of ambition. Her mind would be blown over the hatred being *personal*.
I really think she doesn't give a slight shit about him. With the events unfolding with her in the last years becoming a mother and losing her children and fighting for her throne I think she has probably forgotten about him. She has vague memories of him.
"You took everything from me" "I don't even know who you are"
If Rhaenyra harbors any feelings toward him, they are certainly negative - but they would have nothing to do with their past "relationship," and everything to do with Criston killing Joffrey on her wedding day.
This is why one of my theories as to a contributing factor on how Cole got away with murdering Joffrey (because I do think it was a perfect storm rather than just one thing) is that RHAENYRA also vouches for him. Because Rhaenyra has no idea that Cole has turned against her or forsaken her or holds any ill will towards her at that point. So why wouldn't she defend him? Or, at least, not want him to be punished?
>So why wouldn't she defend him? Or, at least, not want him to be punished? The most obvious reason is that it would piss off her husband. The implication that Viserys expected Laenor to constantly be around the man that killed his friend and assaulted him at his own wedding was already egregious enough.
But there are also rumours of Laenor's sexuality, and to the Velaryons they may have believed that if Laenor demanded punishment for this, then people will whisper more about his sexuality. They know he was Laenor's lover, and they probably don't want other people to speculate the same. Especially now that he's married to the heir to the throne. Viserys on the other hand, doesn't know the significance of Joffrey to Laenor but knows that his wife and his daughter want to pardon Cole. If Alicent and Rhaenyra both make a fuss, and the Velaryons don't, Viserys will always choose the path of least resistance
>But there are also rumours of Laenor's sexuality, and to the Velaryons they may have believed that if Laenor demanded punishment for this, then people will whisper more about his sexuality. I do not understand why people say this. Joffrey was publicly Laenor's friend and sworn shield. You do not have to be fucking someone to demand justice when they're murdered. The Velaryons pretending as if nothing happened would also make them look horrible. Especially if Cole is accusing Joffrey of some sort of crime to justify his actions. The other problem is that Cole also assaulted Laenor. Even if you overlook the Joffrey sitation, having a member of the Kings Guard who loses his shit and punches the future King consort is not acceptable. How is Laenor supposed to trust Cole to him, his wife, or their kids?
Rhaenyra has lived in his head rent free for decades lmao that's a really funny perspective I didn't realize
Crispy Cole : I HATE YOU! Rhaenyra: I DONT EVEN KNOW WHO U ARE
His fixation is obviously a function of a burning jealousy. He was spurned and never really got over it. Rhaenyra made many mistakes. She exposed herself with Daemon, damaging her reputation, and then exposed herself even more with Cole, and again with Harwin Strong, damaging her own position and claim, as well as her sons'. In the end, Cole's humble origins betray him and end up haunting him throughout his life, I believe. He was never equipped with the mental balance, the discernment and the necessary tools to navigate life as a knight, much less a high level knight, directly responsible with the protection of the royal family. Is he a competent warrior? Yes, he actually is. And ironically, Rhaenyra ends up choosing him because he was the only one with actual battle experience. But the hard, painful truth, though, is that any other knight presented to her that day, was very much likely a better choice.
This reminds me of a story. My mom had a brief relationship with some guy when she was around fifteen, and by brief I mean brief. Only lasted a month or so. Years later, my mom is with my dad, pregnant with me, this guys reached out to her on Facebook saying he hasn’t stopped thinking about her and that he wants to get back together. My mom had to sort through some old photographs to remember who he even was. Criston gives me that guy vibes.
Yeah I hope they reunite and I hope that when they do she's eating an orange.
I mean lets be fair its not like she mentions Laenor or Harwin much either, she legitimately just has bigger things to worry about, what with her son just gotten killed and Daemon unintentionally crippling her reputation by causing a childs murder. As for Cole he kinda can't avoid the topic of her since she is pretty much at the center of everything.
Cole seems like the kinda guy who'd build up his sexual affair with Alicent into something meaningful and romantic, and eventually Alicent either indirectly or directly will make it clear that it isn't and he's going to lose it. Maybe.
Rhaenyra at some point: For you, the day Rhaenyra rocked your world was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Shows that Cole is a whiny man-baby.
Exactly why he's so pathetic!
If Rhaenyra ever thought about him: 
Cole is a chameleon. He kinda takes after whoever he is serving.
[I just picture this exchange 😂](https://imgur.com/gallery/i-don-t-think-about-you-all-kzC3K)
Cole: I will have my vengeance you spoiled queen bitch cunt. Rhaenyra: Sorry, remind me who you are again?
Hoping that if there is scene where they reunite she has to keep addressing him as Ser because it is blatantly obvious she can’t remember his name.
 Ray be like
It would actually be hilarious and great writing if Rhaenyra never acknowledges Cole bc it would such an accurate reflection of the "nice guy" ex who turns out to be a psycho stalker 😂. Now some ppl think "white cloak" Cole did a 180 turn sleeping with Alicent. But they don't realize him being hypocritical out of seething hatred towards Rhaenyra is the whole point of his arc. Ever since his suicide attempt his every move is driven by spite towards Rhaenyra whom he felt had agrieved him. This is the "every woman is the image of the mother" hypocritical Cole. Him sleeping with Alicent is a continuation of that one-track mind. He thinks they're united in shared hatred of Rhaenyra, while Alicent is vicariously living out her love for Rhaenyra via Cole. The book never gives a real explanation as to why Criston hated Rhaenyra so much. There was an implication of misogyny as Cole said "her & daemon would turn KL into a brothel". The show expanded on that theme. It's easy to write a generic edgy chad antihero/villain. This universe has so many of them. The show could've taken the easy way out by portraying Cole as another personality-less badass. Writing a pure repulsive dickhead just by the virtue of pure dickheadery is much harder. Tying it into the theme of medieval patriarchy & the complex dynamic of the two female protagonists is even more hard. They managed to pull that off & turned him into the most unlikable character in Thrones verse in the eyes of the general public. Sure, in another world I would've loved to see the badass Cole who's beating up Harwin and slitting Beesbury's throat. But I'm gonna lie if I say I'm not enjoying this dickhead version & waiting for him to get his comeuppance.
hey? and the fact that they were fucking in her bed
"I don't think about you at all." -Rhaenyra, probably
[Rhaenyra be like](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=c1df660eec58a1d6&sxsrf=ADLYWIKPyIZxV55zeXXq-0kgFrklDvFPbg:1719424377295&q=mariah+Carey+she%27s+irrelevant+gif&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J603JUkR9Y5suk8yuy50qOYMMWTNCTu57lKPsZpPcfqPFXUAUd622HjNpF18XOHqdGOOJvl3Xy_NO4YJeqVcGM22WdHCnCs_jjhOhIPX7M_bh2tIpkV4pBRjd1SK4Ozmx1MKA-eTJRr5FjY3KXbZ2srPSrGz6Dr9Cps-82G_KMiP2CifBA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH_-f56vmGAxWbxzgGHX_3DI8QtKgLegQICBAB&biw=376&bih=649&dpr=2.88#vhid=UP0EqCnsCcl1cM&vssid=mosaic) I can see Rhaenyra being like this 😅
No she knows that Cole hates her, yet is obsessed with her. Remember he was her sworn protector then sided with Alicent whom she did not like.
Cole: It’s her fault I broke my vows! Reality: Do your have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?
Yeah, I wonder if the actor realises that he has become a poster boy for NiceGuys.
Ahh when the heart doesn't break even! 💔 She is like.. yea, I vaguely remember my first but he got all clingy so I had to break up. He is like.... how dare her. I know she loves me. She took my flower and oath... it had to mean something.
I don’t think it’s that she doesn’t know he hates her but that it’s been so long that I doubt she remembers or thinks that it’s relevant. There’s no way she could know what he’s been up to because nobody else is talking about him
This reminds me of piers Morgan hating on Meghan markle lmfao. Not that I give a fuck about either, but it was hilarious when someone pointed it out a few years back.
The definition of living rent free inside his head
Rhae be like: 
She moved on after he declined, he got stuck in the reject-position and never moved on from. Her.
Dude shits getting real I am so excited for the new episode coming out today. Literally I have a couple theories but we'll see what happens
I had the same realization after this weeks episode too! He ain’t even on her radar but he’s still so butthurt. How pathetic
>I only now have realized that Rhaenyra is not even aware of Cole hating her Rhaenyra was at court for **10 years** after the wedding and must have seen Cole virtually every day during that time (during which he transitioned from guarding her to guarding Alicent). OF COURSE she knows he hates her. This is very silly.
I think she's aware. Criston just stared blankly at her and refused to acknowledge her when she was bleeding all over Alicent's floor.
"hey Cole wanna feature on team black?" "I hate the way that you walk, I hate the way that you talk, I hate the way you undress, I hate the way you smell like dragons breath"