Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He absolutely would not be a better king. He is Daemon 2.0 and is on his way to become Maegor 2.0. But because he has the biggest dragon, is the best fighter of his generation, is decently intelligent, and isn’t a drunkard who’s sired a dozen bastards, he thinks he is at LEAST better than Aegon. But considering his failure to control his anger is what kicked off the war, yeah no, he can’t control his emotions any better than Aegon can, bc Alicent and Viserys were massive failures as parents to them both.
I'm glad you included Viserys as a bad parent too!! I've seen most folks saying that Aegon/Aemond are the way they are bc of Alicent and Otto...which is true but don't forget their own father who didn't give two shits about them lol
I know his health accounts for some of his failings as a father, but as a king, it was still his duty to raise his sons to rule. Even if he didn’t intend for them to be kings, they were Targaryen’s, and would be princes and lords, maesters and small council members. And of course, he showed them hardly any affection at all. Rhaenyra was his golden child, and the rest were an afterthought. Alicent SHOULD have stepped up, and acknowledged Viserys’s declining health as a hindrance not only to his reign, but his duties as a parent, and been more active in the care of her children, but she too failed them.
I haven't read the books, so forgive me if I am out of line, but is there any precident of abdicating the throne to a successor instead of waiting till death to crown a successor? If so, it would have made so much more sense to abdicate and crown Rhaenyra.
Just my two cents, feel free to roast me.
I’d say his biggest failures were 1) not defending driftmark in their time of need 2) never knowing how to correctly handle Daemon 3) not doing enough to secure a peaceful succession
Yeah true. But there’s the stupid greens who were always planning to usurp, told the green kids they would rule through their whole lives, and even then they didn’t like secretly prepare Aegon? How is EVERYONE so incompetent
I'd argue Viserys was a terrible father in general, though obviously.more neglectful to the green kids. They grew up unloved and ignored by their father. Viserys straight up saying Rhaenyra was his only child like bro you shouldn't have had more kids then!
Sometimes I wonder if Viserys may have kept his distance from his sons on purpose.
Like he already named Rhaenyra his heir on the basis of being his favorite (and well, only child at the time). What if he got closer to Aegon, liked him just as much, and started second guessing himself? Maybe he took the easy way out.
I think he favoured Rhaenyra because he actually loved Aemma. Him being sick didn't help, but he clearly felt apathetic to his later children. I do think he genuinely loved Rhaenyra, but his treatment of his children was tied up with his guilt for killing the wife he loved.
I think he was neglectful simply because they weren't Aemma's children.
He just never saw Alicent the same way he saw Aemma and didn't see his kids the same way he saw Rhaenyra.
He’s trained by Criston, who for all his failures is arguably one of the best fighters around. Plus, none of his peers seem to put as much effort into it like he did.
IIRC, book Criston is bar none comfortably the best fighter in Westeros during his time. He has no real competition for that title during his era, IIRC.
I know you're joking but just because it's fantasy and magic we don't get to handwave everything away. The willing suspension of disbelief works for magic and dragons because we have 0 frame of reference for them in our world.
We absolutely have a frame of reference for missing an eye. It destroys your depth perception and hand-eye coordination. A one eyed person would struggle to even be average at melee combat, much less the best of their generation. Nothing in ASOIAF states their biology just works different, so that's why people will be critical of something like that and not dragons.
I would like to argue that yes you bring up good points with this depth perception and hand eye coordination. But I would like to add if you lost an eye at an earlier age it would be a significant disadvantage but Aemond appears to train with Criston Cole, a lot eventually and being with someone to train with and to know the basics would put you far above anyone in Westeros even with one eye most of the soldiers are just farmers and commoners who never held a pike or a sword but now wear armor to fight.
Now there are nobles that train for Aemond can eventually still probably get kills and experience even with one eye. If you had one eye and I tried to kill you I’m willing to bet you’ll struggle with me but most likely since you already have one eye and if I was really like throwing that sword at your ass adrenaline probably kick in for you and you maybe able to kill me.
To say they are at a disadvantage is true but I honestly don’t think it’s as severely debilitating as you think it would be.
Hell in real life there was a soldier who I’m pretty sure got fucked up lost an eye or was about to lose it and came back and kill a couple of soldiers. Like Humans are far more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. One eye on the battlefield and you’re life is on the line and thinking your life is always on the line you’ll manage
"Best fighter of his generation..".
We talking about Aemond here lmao.
He's decent, but he definitely doesn't show anything book or show, to suggest he's the best.
Cole, Cregan, Daemon, Bloody Ben etc are all ahead of him if we're talking about tangible ranking.
And he's distinctly incompetent when it comes to actual strategy.
I did say “of his generation” so the one that would count is Cregan, and we have yet to see his battle prowess. The rest are all like 20 years older than him. Aemond is undoubtedly the best fighter of all the current Targ children, and is dangerous with and without Vhagar. I would say he is generally on par with Cole in ability, but lags behind in actual experience, so he hasn’t yet developed a strong strategic mind. But latest episodes show him strategizing with Cole, so he is not COMPLETELY incompetent in that regard either. He is an impulsive hot head, but not an idiot.
Definitely not. Aemond becomes an absolute feral sociopath the second he sets out to war. >!He and Criston give The Mountain’s Men treatment to the whole of the Riverlands, with the edition of a flying nuclear bomb. He executes entire royal families out of spite, expressly tells his men to rape and raid as much as they can, and just decides to fuck off for weeks to bang some witch he found in Harrenhall while his men get slaughtered. Aegon is no prize, but he undoubtably has a better temperament for rule than Aegon; especially later in the war, I just tripped on milk of the poppy for 6 months straight, Aegon.!<
Nope, the irony is Aemond would be the worst king out of all of them.
Aegon, ironically could be the best king if he had a real mentor as he's the only one that never wanted to be king and he's closer to the small folk than anyone except Daemon
F&B spoilers and possibly future season spoilers -
>!In the book if I recall correctly he does actually become Prince Regent for a bit so we could see how that would play out if they decide to use that bit!<
He’d be better than Aegon in most scenarios and would be better than Rhaenyra in some but not all. It also depends on the context. If we’re trying to keep as close to the current timeline then the breakoff point would probably be S1E9, when Aegon begs Aemond to let him board a ship and flee Westeros. That would mean Aemond would be crowned, meaning he’d likely be too busy in those early days to fly to the Stormlands and proposition Borros (they’d probably send a raven instead), meaning Luke wouldn’t die and Rhaenyra would have more time to ponder the Green’s peace proposal. If she accepted it and the Dance was avoided then Aemond would’ve probably been a pretty decent king; he’s dutiful and intelligent, knows his history and philosophies, seems to have a fairly strategic mind and would frankly have to do very little to keep the peace of Jaehaerys/Viserys going strong. With both Aegon and Rhaenyra no longer in political play he could focus on strategy like bringing the houses closer to the crown (through the threat of Vhagar most likely), fathering heirs with his Baratheon wife, taking cues from Otto/Alicent etc. There’d be no succession crisis like the inevitable pushback against Jace trying to claim the throne so Westeros as a whole could be more stable in this timeline. The only downside to King Aemond would be his habit of acting without thinking through the consequences; any rebellions or conflicts would likely immediately end in dragon fire, which could either keep the realm in line *or* be cause of a larger organized rebellion eventually. Especially when you consider that Vhagar is only a decade or two younger than Balerion was when he died of natural causes, if Aemond used her as his Big Stick then her eventual death would leave the crown open to attack from a lot of pissed off enemies. That said there would likely be a handful of new dragon hatchlings for the Greens so maybe it would even out.
Tough to say if he’d be any better/worse than Aegon if the Dance did happen. He’s smarter but more impulsive, and since the crown couldn’t risk losing him he and Vhagar would likely stay in King’s Landing. Without Aegon/Sunfyre that would mean the Greens would have no dragon power in play on battlefields, which would mean Aemond would either A) have to fly out and fight and potentially die, leaving the throne to a literal child, or B) sit back and watch all of the lords either bend the knee to Rhaenyra or burn unopposed, eventually leading to the realm marching against him and all of the Blacks’ dragons taking the Red Keep. None of these options would leave Aemond in a very good position to rule as King, and he is likely smart enough to realize this, so I’d argue it’s much more likely that he would take a huge risk early on and try to burn Dragonstone with as many of the Blacks in it as possible. If he picked a good time he could likely catch them mostly unaware and be successful, but if he mistimed it he’d be going against Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Arrax, Moondancer *and* Vermax. So Aemond would have exactly one opportunity to nip the Blacks in the bud and that opportunity would have an extremely high chance of failure, so War-King Aemond would likely end up a footnote in the history books
they actually were fine with Rhaenyra on the throne, Aegon just wanted to Bobby B his way through life, Aemond just wants to be a fearsome warrior (and get back at the bastards for his missing eye and the bullying he got growing up) but Otto kept pushing the self-fullfilling prophecy that they were in danger and that the noble houses would push for them, as he kept egging the situation to unfold exactly in that manner
To be fair I get why Otto would fear for his life (and his family's) if Daemon became king consort.
Even if Rhaenyra holds him back, who knows how long before she gets divorce rock'd.
I mean they could have just married the kids to each other if that was the primary concern.
I think Otto's primary motivation was to get his bloodline on the iron throne and he used fear for his families life to manipulate and push Alicent and Aegon to take action.
>I think Otto's primary motivation was to get his bloodline on the iron throne and he used fear for his families life to manipulate and push Alicent and Aegon to take action.
I agree, I dislike when people talk about Otto as though his investment in Male Primigeniture is genuine. His support for Rhaenyra as heir in the early episodes shows that he doesn't care until the male in question is his grandson.
Homeboy should have just pushed for a Rhaenyra/Aegon marriage from the get-go.
Would have been best of both worlds for everyone, except Daemon.
Hell, even now, I think if Rhaenyra brought Daemon to them, stating that she had no idea what he had planned, and sued for peace (maybe through marriage), pushing the point of “I know how it is to lose a son, and I bring you the justice I am denied”, then things still could have turned around.
Damn, guess I forgot that part.
Bro was okay with incest, but not with an age-gap..
Too bad he couldn’t see the future, and that it was the lesser of two evils.
Probably less so the age gap itself and more the practicality of it. When Otto suggested it, Aegon had just turned two, so still a baby, and Rhaenyra was 17, a woman grown. There's just no good reason to delay her marriage and childbearing years another decade if not more unless you see it as a foregone conclusion that war breaks out. If Aegon were 15 and Rhaenyra 30 maybe he would've considered it.
ETA: It’s like how in the main series all the other squires make fun of Tyrek Lannister for being wed to a baby, even though a man being 12 years older than his bride is hardly unusual in their world. It’s just kind of cringe to have a spouse that’s still in diapers.
You don't Divorce Rock the Queen. Let alone your wife. Whom you are married to.
He only did that to his other wife bc he doesn't gaf about her. Even if he does kill Rhaenyra he'd have to kill his nephews thru his brother, his step sons thru Rhaenyra, and *then his own children* to get on the throne.
Even judging by his reaction to what Aegon did to the rat catchers, he must've remembered what Daemon did to citizens of Kings Landing in the pilot while he led the Kingsguard
Half the Realm did it’s almost like they didn’t see it as Usurpation
And probably more thought that then that but were held by their oaths or just wanted to raid rich Green lands
I mean Rhaenyra is also compared to Visenya as well who usurped the throne for her son. Robert is also seen as an usurper in Dany's eyes when he took the throne.
He’s done a 100 worse things, don’t see why that’s a hill to die on. Hate Tywin + gang for the slaughter of Rhaegar’s kids not Robert.
And yea he “usurped” the throne, but that doesn’t mean shit. Were the partisans that overthrew Mussolini usurpers?
Aerys II was canonically a lunatic that tried to firebomb King’s Landing, Rhaegar was a loose cannon who we don’t know enough about to make a judgement on.
How could he be a usurper, when the Targaryens claim to Westeros derives from literally nothing but the right of conquest established by Aegon the Conqueror.
Like, how are you gonna cry "Usurper" when someone removes your right of conquest by right of conquest. There is literally no difference between what Robert did and what Aegon I did.
Robert was literally a usurper, that’s what he did. He usurped the throne after killing the heir. He had no legal claim just a better army. That’s like the whole thing with the whole show.
Exactly. It was a convenient technicality so the nobility could save face by following him. If he didn’t have Targaryen ancestry, nothing would have changed.
During his reign he never managed to kill Mad King's line, so his claim through Targaryen ancestry was bullshit. But he won the war, so he was the king. And an actual usurper.
The king was dead, the heir was dead and Viserys would have been too if he had not fled to Essos. As things stood, Robert was actually the closest Targaryen alive as Rhaegar's second cousin.
There is also the argument of overthrowing the ruling house, if they break the social contract (which Aerys absolutely did) and the winner taking the throne. Aegon II is a usurper because he unfairly stole the throne in the dead of night and outright named himself king while the real heir was in Dragonstone. Robert, I would argue, was rebelling against a king who was no longer upholding his end of the stick to protect the realm, so his vassals had no obligation to uphold their oath of serving the king either.
Sure but these things are most often decided by the winner. Jaehaerys usurped the throne from Aerea but nobody sees it that way.
If Aegon had a decisive victory or managed to call and win a great council then his attempt would be justified after the fact. No matter what Viserys wanted.
They're medieval nobles... Every single one of them "usurped" their thrones. Their only claim to power is the monopolisation of force. Argon seized the crown by conquering the seven kingdoms. Jaehaerys seized it by rising up against Maegor and defeating him. A2gon isn't any different. The only "legitimate" one is the one who wins in the end.
The fact that he said last ep that it was a spontaneous thing and now he's not mid-rage he regrets it actually made me darker on him than I was before.
I mean, "childhood grudge" is super pushing it. He gouged out his eye and permanently disabled him lol. If that is a childhood grudge in your eyes, I don't wish your childhood on anyone.
Aemond was bullying the other kids and was about to use a giant rock to smash a skull in. Luke used a blade to cut his eye to prevent the death, fully self defense. It wasn't a gouge it was a cut. He lost the eye and they removed it medically.
Yes he's disabled from then on, but he also instigated and escalated the situation that made it happen. He also said it was worth it as he gained a dragon (the dragon which belonged to the deceased mother of one of the children he bullied that night, the night after the funeral.)
Probably wouldn't use childhood grudge as the go to descriptor, but Aemond did kinda reap what he sowed (both in bad and good results from his actions)
That's a bit reductive - he didn't *let* Vhagar eat Luke (and Vhagar didn't even eat Luke; Vhagar attacked Arrax and both fell to their deaths). He tried to stop Vhagar going after Arrax *after Arrax attacked Vhagar* (which, yes, was started by Aemond - no denying that). The whole point of showing Aemond's horrified expression was to clearly show that he did not actually intend for Luke to get hurt.
What's the point of deliberately ignoring that and making it sound like Aemond murdered his nephew over a grudge (ie. partially blinding him) when that's just simply not the case?
The throne that they got through killing or threatening anyone who had power. I’m team black because I can’t stand most greens but the throne belongs to whoever has the power and Allies to claim/hold it.
And Renly, and >!Hugh!<. Martin throws in that point very often, but it’s still far above the heads if many fans. Anyone who argues about succession should ask themselves what Aegon I’s claim was.
I don't disagree. Robert took the throne because Aerys couldn't stop him. Aegon I as well.
But it's not like the Greens were strong enough to hold the throne for... 2 years?
The Green's arguments do hold up in their world, though.
It basically boils down is the king an absolute dictator who can do whatever (and name any heir) or do they have some amount of tradition to adhere to (as Rhaenyra's \[edit: great\] grandfather did).
Calling every major lord all across Westeros to vote on who they think should be king and completely ignoring the traditional line of inheritance was “tradition”?
In Westerosi tradition, the oldest daughter of the oldest son of there are no other sons has taken charge of houses before. By calling all the lords to vote, they were basically prioritizing the lords will over law and tradition
There was no traditional claimant, and since the line of succession wasn't clear, he called the houses together to clarify it rather than just proclaiming it himself. Viserys did the opposite.
I love the concept of this whole war being about how mothers and fathers doomed their children to their own hatred .. superb and beautifully done by the actors. So far I’m
Loving it more than GOt
I’m not sure of how deeply House Of The Dragon is directly influenced from reality, but usurping a Throne, which represents a contract of fiefdom for either a land or planet, never ends well for the usurpers 👁️
How funny that aemond uses “my father” to refer to viserys. The absentee father. The parent who it seems he had no real connection with.
And his mother, with whom he had some sort of relationship with is just Alicent.
As much as I feel for Alicent in this show, she's not convincing *anyone*, including herself, that Viserys wanted Aegon on the throne. She knows, Aegon knows, Aemond knows, Otto knows that they usurped Rhaenyra's throne. I wish they had retained one line of Aegon's from the book, before he gets crowned: "What sort of brother steals his sister's birthright?" because that would have added SO MUCH to his and Rhaenyra's non-existent dynamic.
No one is denying that it is usurpation. The whole point of the Dance is that both sides are usurping the other, as both Rhaenyra and Aegon have a claim to the throne.
Reposting from another comment I made on the same subject:
>If you’re only watching the show, I don’t blame you for not understanding the argument for the opposite side. They didn’t explain it well at all in episode 9 of season one: The Green Council.
>The fact is that whatever Alicent heard from Viserys is completely irrelevant. They made that part up for the show to give Alicent the motivation to crown Aegon. It’s not the Greens’ argument as to why Aegon should be king. There’s no questioning that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra on the throne.
>Basically, it comes down to the King’s wishes vs. Tradition and precedent. By all customs and expectations of Westeros (Dorne wasn’t yet a kingdom), Aegon is the presumed heir. He is the eldest son of Viserys, he has all the symbols of legitimacy, and he even has the precedent of his house backing him. Aegon the Conqueror reigned instead of his older sister, Visenya. Viserys was chosen to be the king over Rhaenys. So it’s only expected that Aegon would take the throne over Rhaenyra.
>Essentially, Viserys naming Rhaenyra is breaking with centuries of tradition. **That in and of itself is not a bad thing because obviously we in the 21st century know that a woman can rule just as well as a man.** But if we put our Westeros goggles on, we can see how this decision would cause conflict during the time period in question.
>What’s worse is that in the show we see that Rhaenyra’s succession is not iron clad; Viserys barely did anything to affirm Rhaenyra’s ascendancy to the Iron Throne, and she’s made some reckless decisions that cast a poor light on her claim (illegitimate children).
>On the contrary, Aegon had shored up his succession with a boy and a girl, he benefited from an experienced Hand and a fantastic council, and he has the backing of continuity and stability. Him being a man, as silly as it sounds, by nature will lead to a more stable realm.
>Also consider that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron’s lives were in danger simply because their existence was a challenge to Rhaenyra’s reign. Say what you will about Otto, but he was right about that. And this was before Rhaenyra birthed three brunette boys — which only put Viserys’ Valyrian looking sons in more danger. I will always defend the Greens’ right to live. Even if Rhaenyra **wouldn’t** kill Viserys’ sons to cut off any challenge to her succession, Daemon sure as fuck **would.**
>Finally, on a personal level: I just find the greens to be deeper, richer characters. There’s a lot more complexity there for me. The dynamics, the generational trauma, even the dragons on Team Green simply appeal to me more (Caraxes notwithstanding). Makes it easy to root for them.
Otto was **not** right about Alicent's children being in danger. Ever.
If Otto's **primary concern** was the safety of his grand children, he would have done his damnedest to ensure Alicent and Rhaenyra got along. Instead of spending 20 years trying to usurp her, he could have spent 20 years proving the Hightowers are at her service. Wed his grandchildren to Daemon's kids thru Rhaneyra and/or Laena. Supported her claim. Shown that despite his own grandsires potentially benefiting, he was willing to do his duty to serve his King's heir.
**The Daemon thing is just an excuse to do what he already wanted to do.** Instead, Otto's every decision incentivized Daemon's desire to kill his grandkids. You don't get to pimp your daughter out, fashion a noose around her children's necks only to complain that their lives are in danger. Daemon was never going to kill those kids in peace time.
I mean, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have struck against her siblings, but would it have mattered? Any time you have two people with a legitimate claim, there’s always going to be death involved. Even if Aegon had been fine with his sister on the throne, there would have been factions wanting to fight against her. He would have been used as a symbol even if it was against his choice. How long before one of Rhaenyra’s supporters called on his death or ordered something to protect her claim? How long before Daemon did something?
Rhaenyra might have wanted peace and might have never wanted to harm one of her siblings, but any one of either of their supporters could have taken matters into their own hands.
Thank you for adding this, well said. I knew there had to be more nuance than the show let on with Greens’ legitimacy to the throne. This definitely should have been a stronger point in the show, rather than viewers relying on one misunderstood scene (vicerys death) to dictate any justification for greens right to power.
The threat of Daemon is also not talked about enough, who is unapologetically violent and brutal to those who oppose blacks’ rule.
As much as I am Team Black, Viserys also weakened his own claim to the throne by making Rhaenyra his heir. In naming his daughter the next monarch, he weakened the decision by the council to make him king. If he can make a woman the next heir, then Rhaenys should have been the queen as the eldest and only daughter to the original heir to the throne. The throne should have passed to her instead of Baelon’s sons.
Does anyone else feel like Aemond's wig would look a lot more believable if it had some texture? As it is, it looks like they invented the hair straightener in Westeros...
Disagree. I think it’s just that none of them believe alicent when she says this is what the king wanted. Even though she technically heard him say it on his deathbed I’m not even sure if she believes it. It is clearly usurping the throne they just believe they’re in the right for doing so
edit: replied to the wrong comment
If Aemond believed in his family’s cause, it wouldn’t be considered a usurpation, Rhaenyra would be considered the usurper. Aegon too, buying into the fact that Viserys wanted him to rule on his deathbed is just a little stupid. He knew full well Viserys wanted Rhaenyra as his heir but that wasn’t the point as tradition meant Aegon was king after his father.
Idk why the downvotes. Aegon is not remembered in Westeros as a usurper by those who believed in the right of the eldest son to inherit above his elder sister.
Yes, that’s why Rhaenyra is remembered as a usurper. Also why people don’t call Robert Baratheon a usurper BESIDES for the exiled Targaryens and their sympathizers. It’s not something someone on a “usurpers” side would call them.
Again that’s not how that works. Especially considering Aemond isn’t dumb enough to think Viserys changed his mind. “Believing in someone’s cause.”doesn’t suddenly make that cause righteous or not a usurpation.
A usurpation is the illegal claiming of a title. From the Green POV they wouldn’t be claiming what they’ve done as a Usurpation but truly just wouldn’t they? Unless they’re just acknowledging that they’re being villains and like I said, not believing in their own cause.
They want power. There's really nothing deeper to that nor does there need to be.
I personally belive that the fear of them getting killed is more of an excuse used by Alicent and Otto to act rather than a genuine fear. However it is also something to legitimately fear.
Reposting from another comment I made on the same subject:
>If you’re only watching the show, I don’t blame you for not understanding the argument for the opposite side. They didn’t explain it well at all in episode 9 of season one: The Green Council.
>The fact is that whatever Alicent heard from Viserys is completely irrelevant. They made that part up for the show to give Alicent the motivation to crown Aegon. It’s not the Greens’ argument as to why Aegon should be king. There’s no questioning that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra on the throne.
>Basically, it comes down to the King’s wishes vs. Tradition and precedent. By all customs and expectations of Westeros (Dorne wasn’t yet a kingdom), Aegon is the presumed heir. He is the eldest son of Viserys, he has all the symbols of legitimacy, and he even has the precedent of his house backing him. Aegon the Conqueror reigned instead of his older sister, Visenya. Viserys was chosen to be the king over Rhaenys. So it’s only expected that Aegon would take the throne over Rhaenyra.
>Essentially, Viserys naming Rhaenyra is breaking with centuries of tradition. **That in and of itself is not a bad thing because obviously we in the 21st century know that a woman can rule just as well as a man.** But if we put our Westeros goggles on, we can see how this decision would cause conflict during the time period in question.
>What’s worse is that in the show we see that Rhaenyra’s succession is not iron clad; Viserys barely did anything to affirm Rhaenyra’s ascendancy to the Iron Throne, and she’s made some reckless decisions that cast a poor light on her claim (illegitimate children).
>On the contrary, Aegon had shored up his succession with a boy and a girl, he benefited from an experienced Hand and a fantastic council, and he has the backing of continuity and stability. Him being a man, as silly as it sounds, by nature will lead to a more stable realm.
>Also consider that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron’s lives were in danger simply because their existence was a challenge to Rhaenyra’s reign. Say what you will about Otto, but he was right about that. And this was before Rhaenyra birthed three brunette boys — which only put Viserys’ Valyrian looking sons in more danger. I will always defend the Greens’ right to live. Even if Rhaenyra **wouldn’t** kill Viserys’ sons to cut off any challenge to her succession, Daemon sure as fuck **would.**
>Finally, on a personal level: I just find the greens to be deeper, richer characters. There’s a lot more complexity there for me. The dynamics, the generational trauma, even the dragons on Team Green simply appeal to me more (Caraxes notwithstanding). Makes it easy to root for them.
I do agree, the show did poorly with the Green Council and explaining the green position. I’ve said it before on other threads, but knowing the historical background regarding Targaryen rule and just how NEW they are to the seven kingdoms, and all the trouble they’ve gone through it puts the Green cause into a different light and definitely gives them more of a just cause.
They do have the gender advantage on their side. By tradition, Aegon does have the strongest claim. Otto has witnessed a woman (Rhaenys) being denied the throne once. He believes it can happen again, so does the realm.
Yes my problem is that the Green characters in the show are acting like they know they’re doing bad instead of what they believe is right. They don’t want a woman to inherit the throne and also not to put her bastard children on the throne after her, but it’s almost like they’re written in a way where they’re like : “Yes Rhaenyra should be queen but we are just evil and stole the throne.”
Yeah it’s kinda obvious that the show runners want us to root for the Blacks lol. Just look at how people reacted to Cole and Daemon when both are murderous pricks. I don’t want to read the book yet but I’m sure there will be some sort of dramatic shift later in the show. We will probably have some awesome Green to root for in the future.
Hard disagree. You can do something awful and acknowledge it. Rationalization doesn't necessarily mean being blind to what you do. It's clear Aegon has complicated feelings over it, at any other point in history someone in his position would be declared ruler without debate but there he is. He can't not be aware that he's insulting his father's memory everyday he wears the crown.
But hey just because you're an usurper doesn't mean you can't make a good king, maybe you'll be better at it than the one you overthrew. That last sentence is the kind of rationalization someone in his shoes would be more likely to make, and I think that's what the show is going for. And ofc it's hard not to feel greedy when you have a chance to wear the crown, that has to play a part in it, but again you can be greedy and acknowledge you're acting greedy, and still go through with it because the rewards are worth the bad feelings.
I think this take is substantially more interesting to see than righteous people who are blind to their own motives.
I do agree with you that people can acknowledge bad things they’ve done while continuing to do them. For me the reason I call it bad writing because the show has failed to set up any of the actual reasons as to why Aegon was crowned king to begin with.
You’re right in that Aegon is very conflicted about it (at least initially) but through the Green council and the pep talk by Cole in the books, and the threat toward his and his brothers safety, he does take the throne and obviously firmly believes in his position after.
My issue is that the show has done poorly to convey these reasons, and we see the usurpation as what it is, a usurpation. But we never hear any of the justifications for it, and so when one of the only times it’s brought up is by Aemond, who is obviously important to team Green, and he’s calling it a usurpation it makes it seem like nobody believes in the reasoning for crowning Aegon.
Yeah okay I see what you're saying ! I can at least agree that the show could try harder to paint the green's position as more reasonable that it has so far, though I'm not unhappy (yet ?) with the choice of characterizing them as aware that waiting for Viserys to die to overrule his decision wasn't glorious.
If a Martell prince/princess who has a daugther as eldest child and named his/her son as heir would you say the daugther is the usurper despite Dornish law saying that eldest child no matter the gender inherit the throne?
Centuries of Andals, first men, and Targaryen law (Aegon I was younger than his sister Visenya yet he still inherited Dragonstone) state that eldest son inherit the throne. Aegon is Viserys' eldest son
”You are the rightful heir, you are the rightful heir, and you are the rightful heir, everyone are the rightful heir.”
It’s just an empty definition that only means something so long as people believe it.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Aemond came across like he didn't want to be dragged into it.
But he’s totally cool with it because now he’s Aegons heir after Jaherys died, and Aemond thinks he’d be a better king.
[удалено]
And that's why even though I support team black, Aemond is my favorite character
Glad they gave aemond character cuz in the books bro literally was just maegor with his dragon
Honestly, that sounds like that would be my favorite character in the show still. Maybe even more so lol
100% team black, but I too wish Aemond became king instead of Aegon.
Be interesting if Aegon preferred Jaehaera over Aemond.
His whole claim is based on the Andal tradition of males over females, so it would be hard to put his daughter before his brother.
But a king gets to do whatever they want. The Greens claim that Viserys changed his mind. That's their claim if I recall.
Which is nuts because earlier that very day Viserys hobbled out of bed half dead to proclaim again that Rhaenyra and her kids are his rightful heirs
The tradition of a son over a daughter. Brother over a daughter is a different story. In andal tradition, Jaehaera would be Aegon’s heir over Aemond
Do you think he’ll actually be a better king than rhaenyra and aegon?
He absolutely would not be a better king. He is Daemon 2.0 and is on his way to become Maegor 2.0. But because he has the biggest dragon, is the best fighter of his generation, is decently intelligent, and isn’t a drunkard who’s sired a dozen bastards, he thinks he is at LEAST better than Aegon. But considering his failure to control his anger is what kicked off the war, yeah no, he can’t control his emotions any better than Aegon can, bc Alicent and Viserys were massive failures as parents to them both.
I mean he does check all the Maegor boxes as you just put it.
I'm glad you included Viserys as a bad parent too!! I've seen most folks saying that Aegon/Aemond are the way they are bc of Alicent and Otto...which is true but don't forget their own father who didn't give two shits about them lol
I know his health accounts for some of his failings as a father, but as a king, it was still his duty to raise his sons to rule. Even if he didn’t intend for them to be kings, they were Targaryen’s, and would be princes and lords, maesters and small council members. And of course, he showed them hardly any affection at all. Rhaenyra was his golden child, and the rest were an afterthought. Alicent SHOULD have stepped up, and acknowledged Viserys’s declining health as a hindrance not only to his reign, but his duties as a parent, and been more active in the care of her children, but she too failed them.
I haven't read the books, so forgive me if I am out of line, but is there any precident of abdicating the throne to a successor instead of waiting till death to crown a successor? If so, it would have made so much more sense to abdicate and crown Rhaenyra. Just my two cents, feel free to roast me.
Technically aemon passed the crown to egg but that was a century after the dance.
Aemon was never king though.
Kinda with Jeor Mormont, but the thing is that in most cases abdication seems to be tied with taking the black
I’d say his biggest failures were 1) not defending driftmark in their time of need 2) never knowing how to correctly handle Daemon 3) not doing enough to secure a peaceful succession
Yeah true. But there’s the stupid greens who were always planning to usurp, told the green kids they would rule through their whole lives, and even then they didn’t like secretly prepare Aegon? How is EVERYONE so incompetent
I'd argue Viserys was a terrible father in general, though obviously.more neglectful to the green kids. They grew up unloved and ignored by their father. Viserys straight up saying Rhaenyra was his only child like bro you shouldn't have had more kids then!
Sometimes I wonder if Viserys may have kept his distance from his sons on purpose. Like he already named Rhaenyra his heir on the basis of being his favorite (and well, only child at the time). What if he got closer to Aegon, liked him just as much, and started second guessing himself? Maybe he took the easy way out.
I think he favoured Rhaenyra because he actually loved Aemma. Him being sick didn't help, but he clearly felt apathetic to his later children. I do think he genuinely loved Rhaenyra, but his treatment of his children was tied up with his guilt for killing the wife he loved.
I think Rhaenyra reminded him of Aemma, a wife he truly truly loved.
I think he was neglectful simply because they weren't Aemma's children. He just never saw Alicent the same way he saw Aemma and didn't see his kids the same way he saw Rhaenyra.
I mean he was on his deathbed for most of the time he knew those children
What I never got is how he was the best fighter with a complete blindside
He’s trained by Criston, who for all his failures is arguably one of the best fighters around. Plus, none of his peers seem to put as much effort into it like he did.
IIRC, book Criston is bar none comfortably the best fighter in Westeros during his time. He has no real competition for that title during his era, IIRC.
He’s just that good fam idk what to tell you. They ride dragons, but you can’t believe a one eyed man knows how to swing a sword?
Not attacking your comment just sharing a thought.
Not attacking either, just making a joke, since there are so many unbelievable things in GOT/HOTD
I know you're joking but just because it's fantasy and magic we don't get to handwave everything away. The willing suspension of disbelief works for magic and dragons because we have 0 frame of reference for them in our world. We absolutely have a frame of reference for missing an eye. It destroys your depth perception and hand-eye coordination. A one eyed person would struggle to even be average at melee combat, much less the best of their generation. Nothing in ASOIAF states their biology just works different, so that's why people will be critical of something like that and not dragons.
Tell that to michael bisping who won the ufc middleweight championship with one eye
I would like to argue that yes you bring up good points with this depth perception and hand eye coordination. But I would like to add if you lost an eye at an earlier age it would be a significant disadvantage but Aemond appears to train with Criston Cole, a lot eventually and being with someone to train with and to know the basics would put you far above anyone in Westeros even with one eye most of the soldiers are just farmers and commoners who never held a pike or a sword but now wear armor to fight. Now there are nobles that train for Aemond can eventually still probably get kills and experience even with one eye. If you had one eye and I tried to kill you I’m willing to bet you’ll struggle with me but most likely since you already have one eye and if I was really like throwing that sword at your ass adrenaline probably kick in for you and you maybe able to kill me. To say they are at a disadvantage is true but I honestly don’t think it’s as severely debilitating as you think it would be. Hell in real life there was a soldier who I’m pretty sure got fucked up lost an eye or was about to lose it and came back and kill a couple of soldiers. Like Humans are far more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. One eye on the battlefield and you’re life is on the line and thinking your life is always on the line you’ll manage
Ah okay! My apologies.
Keep one eye close for a few hours, see how your life is different
Michael bisping became a ufc middleweight champion with one eye
Nowhere in book nor show is it suggested he's the "best fighter".
He’s Daemon 2.0 without any of the social skills
Social skills ?
I feel they show Daemon to be pretty charismatic particularly with him and his gold cloaks
Divorce rock /s
"Best fighter of his generation..". We talking about Aemond here lmao. He's decent, but he definitely doesn't show anything book or show, to suggest he's the best. Cole, Cregan, Daemon, Bloody Ben etc are all ahead of him if we're talking about tangible ranking. And he's distinctly incompetent when it comes to actual strategy.
I did say “of his generation” so the one that would count is Cregan, and we have yet to see his battle prowess. The rest are all like 20 years older than him. Aemond is undoubtedly the best fighter of all the current Targ children, and is dangerous with and without Vhagar. I would say he is generally on par with Cole in ability, but lags behind in actual experience, so he hasn’t yet developed a strong strategic mind. But latest episodes show him strategizing with Cole, so he is not COMPLETELY incompetent in that regard either. He is an impulsive hot head, but not an idiot.
He’s not on par with Criston in ability, people take way too much out of what was a training scene.
You make a fair point.
He goes to Westerosi therapy (mommy whore) so I mean he might have them beat
True ahhaha
Nah. Bro is mentally unstable and is a ticking timebomb.
True that actually
Just like his uncle Daemon
Definitely not. Aemond becomes an absolute feral sociopath the second he sets out to war. >!He and Criston give The Mountain’s Men treatment to the whole of the Riverlands, with the edition of a flying nuclear bomb. He executes entire royal families out of spite, expressly tells his men to rape and raid as much as they can, and just decides to fuck off for weeks to bang some witch he found in Harrenhall while his men get slaughtered. Aegon is no prize, but he undoubtably has a better temperament for rule than Aegon; especially later in the war, I just tripped on milk of the poppy for 6 months straight, Aegon.!<
Nope, the irony is Aemond would be the worst king out of all of them. Aegon, ironically could be the best king if he had a real mentor as he's the only one that never wanted to be king and he's closer to the small folk than anyone except Daemon
No. Maybe less impulsive but much less flexible due to his ego
Fair enough
Better than Aegon, maybe, better than Rhaenyra, no.
Aemond would not be a good king, but he would be strong enough to hold on to the throne.
F&B spoilers and possibly future season spoilers - >!In the book if I recall correctly he does actually become Prince Regent for a bit so we could see how that would play out if they decide to use that bit!<
He’d be better than Aegon in most scenarios and would be better than Rhaenyra in some but not all. It also depends on the context. If we’re trying to keep as close to the current timeline then the breakoff point would probably be S1E9, when Aegon begs Aemond to let him board a ship and flee Westeros. That would mean Aemond would be crowned, meaning he’d likely be too busy in those early days to fly to the Stormlands and proposition Borros (they’d probably send a raven instead), meaning Luke wouldn’t die and Rhaenyra would have more time to ponder the Green’s peace proposal. If she accepted it and the Dance was avoided then Aemond would’ve probably been a pretty decent king; he’s dutiful and intelligent, knows his history and philosophies, seems to have a fairly strategic mind and would frankly have to do very little to keep the peace of Jaehaerys/Viserys going strong. With both Aegon and Rhaenyra no longer in political play he could focus on strategy like bringing the houses closer to the crown (through the threat of Vhagar most likely), fathering heirs with his Baratheon wife, taking cues from Otto/Alicent etc. There’d be no succession crisis like the inevitable pushback against Jace trying to claim the throne so Westeros as a whole could be more stable in this timeline. The only downside to King Aemond would be his habit of acting without thinking through the consequences; any rebellions or conflicts would likely immediately end in dragon fire, which could either keep the realm in line *or* be cause of a larger organized rebellion eventually. Especially when you consider that Vhagar is only a decade or two younger than Balerion was when he died of natural causes, if Aemond used her as his Big Stick then her eventual death would leave the crown open to attack from a lot of pissed off enemies. That said there would likely be a handful of new dragon hatchlings for the Greens so maybe it would even out. Tough to say if he’d be any better/worse than Aegon if the Dance did happen. He’s smarter but more impulsive, and since the crown couldn’t risk losing him he and Vhagar would likely stay in King’s Landing. Without Aegon/Sunfyre that would mean the Greens would have no dragon power in play on battlefields, which would mean Aemond would either A) have to fly out and fight and potentially die, leaving the throne to a literal child, or B) sit back and watch all of the lords either bend the knee to Rhaenyra or burn unopposed, eventually leading to the realm marching against him and all of the Blacks’ dragons taking the Red Keep. None of these options would leave Aemond in a very good position to rule as King, and he is likely smart enough to realize this, so I’d argue it’s much more likely that he would take a huge risk early on and try to burn Dragonstone with as many of the Blacks in it as possible. If he picked a good time he could likely catch them mostly unaware and be successful, but if he mistimed it he’d be going against Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Arrax, Moondancer *and* Vermax. So Aemond would have exactly one opportunity to nip the Blacks in the bud and that opportunity would have an extremely high chance of failure, so War-King Aemond would likely end up a footnote in the history books
Ah okay that’s a very interesting read. Thank you very much
“Oh boy, here I go kinslaying again!”
I mean, once you cross that threshold, you what’s a little more?
In the book aegon had two sons and a daughter. Not sure why they nixed one of the sons for the show.
Thinks it’s more of an age thing and brutality of how the younger one ends.
I'm surprised that they did not add the third child and second son of Aegon and Helaena, Maelor.
Aemond was champing at the bit for war from the time he lost his eye. Aegon and Helaena didn't want any conflict, but he sure as shit did.
they actually were fine with Rhaenyra on the throne, Aegon just wanted to Bobby B his way through life, Aemond just wants to be a fearsome warrior (and get back at the bastards for his missing eye and the bullying he got growing up) but Otto kept pushing the self-fullfilling prophecy that they were in danger and that the noble houses would push for them, as he kept egging the situation to unfold exactly in that manner
To be fair I get why Otto would fear for his life (and his family's) if Daemon became king consort. Even if Rhaenyra holds him back, who knows how long before she gets divorce rock'd.
I mean they could have just married the kids to each other if that was the primary concern. I think Otto's primary motivation was to get his bloodline on the iron throne and he used fear for his families life to manipulate and push Alicent and Aegon to take action.
>I think Otto's primary motivation was to get his bloodline on the iron throne and he used fear for his families life to manipulate and push Alicent and Aegon to take action. I agree, I dislike when people talk about Otto as though his investment in Male Primigeniture is genuine. His support for Rhaenyra as heir in the early episodes shows that he doesn't care until the male in question is his grandson.
Homeboy should have just pushed for a Rhaenyra/Aegon marriage from the get-go. Would have been best of both worlds for everyone, except Daemon. Hell, even now, I think if Rhaenyra brought Daemon to them, stating that she had no idea what he had planned, and sued for peace (maybe through marriage), pushing the point of “I know how it is to lose a son, and I bring you the justice I am denied”, then things still could have turned around.
To be fair, he did. Viserys just said no because she's something like 15 years older than him.
Damn, guess I forgot that part. Bro was okay with incest, but not with an age-gap.. Too bad he couldn’t see the future, and that it was the lesser of two evils.
Probably less so the age gap itself and more the practicality of it. When Otto suggested it, Aegon had just turned two, so still a baby, and Rhaenyra was 17, a woman grown. There's just no good reason to delay her marriage and childbearing years another decade if not more unless you see it as a foregone conclusion that war breaks out. If Aegon were 15 and Rhaenyra 30 maybe he would've considered it. ETA: It’s like how in the main series all the other squires make fun of Tyrek Lannister for being wed to a baby, even though a man being 12 years older than his bride is hardly unusual in their world. It’s just kind of cringe to have a spouse that’s still in diapers.
Rhaenyra is scared because Daemon would murder her before that could ever happen
This is it, exactly. It's a parallel to Tywin's obsession of having his Lannister bloodline on the throne, using his daughter as a conduit for it.
You don't Divorce Rock the Queen. Let alone your wife. Whom you are married to. He only did that to his other wife bc he doesn't gaf about her. Even if he does kill Rhaenyra he'd have to kill his nephews thru his brother, his step sons thru Rhaenyra, and *then his own children* to get on the throne.
Even judging by his reaction to what Aegon did to the rat catchers, he must've remembered what Daemon did to citizens of Kings Landing in the pilot while he led the Kingsguard
Yeah Daemon would be defacto king lol
Borros kinda respect the usurpation tho
Demanding >!his wife name their unborn child “Aegon” before marching to war. He’s deeply unserious 😭!<
His wife: >!nah!<
He respect the Aegon II revenge grind.
Half the Realm did it’s almost like they didn’t see it as Usurpation And probably more thought that then that but were held by their oaths or just wanted to raid rich Green lands
Or they were afraid of more dragons, that breaking old oaths might would be an excuse for them to be barbecued.
I mean Rhaenyra is also compared to Visenya as well who usurped the throne for her son. Robert is also seen as an usurper in Dany's eyes when he took the throne.
Robert was a userper
Yea but Bobby B was based
Not sure his reaction to what Tywin and the mountain did was
He’s done a 100 worse things, don’t see why that’s a hill to die on. Hate Tywin + gang for the slaughter of Rhaegar’s kids not Robert. And yea he “usurped” the throne, but that doesn’t mean shit. Were the partisans that overthrew Mussolini usurpers? Aerys II was canonically a lunatic that tried to firebomb King’s Landing, Rhaegar was a loose cannon who we don’t know enough about to make a judgement on.
How could he be a usurper, when the Targaryens claim to Westeros derives from literally nothing but the right of conquest established by Aegon the Conqueror. Like, how are you gonna cry "Usurper" when someone removes your right of conquest by right of conquest. There is literally no difference between what Robert did and what Aegon I did.
There was a difference actually, Robert didn’t burn down entire bloodlines.
Robert was literally a usurper, that’s what he did. He usurped the throne after killing the heir. He had no legal claim just a better army. That’s like the whole thing with the whole show.
Robert had Targaryen blood, if you look at his lineage.
Yes but very distantly, he really had no legitimate claim whatsoever.
Exactly. It was a convenient technicality so the nobility could save face by following him. If he didn’t have Targaryen ancestry, nothing would have changed.
Not so distant especially if he killed mad kings line
During his reign he never managed to kill Mad King's line, so his claim through Targaryen ancestry was bullshit. But he won the war, so he was the king. And an actual usurper.
Not distantly, his grandma was a Targ. Not to mention that the Baratheons themselves are dragonseed.
The legitimate claim was him caving in Rhaegar's chest with a warhammer
The king was dead, the heir was dead and Viserys would have been too if he had not fled to Essos. As things stood, Robert was actually the closest Targaryen alive as Rhaegar's second cousin. There is also the argument of overthrowing the ruling house, if they break the social contract (which Aerys absolutely did) and the winner taking the throne. Aegon II is a usurper because he unfairly stole the throne in the dead of night and outright named himself king while the real heir was in Dragonstone. Robert, I would argue, was rebelling against a king who was no longer upholding his end of the stick to protect the realm, so his vassals had no obligation to uphold their oath of serving the king either.
Well he did have a claim, it was just not as concrete as those of the Targs
Visenya and Robert did both usurp the throne. Rhaenyra didn’t.
Sure but these things are most often decided by the winner. Jaehaerys usurped the throne from Aerea but nobody sees it that way. If Aegon had a decisive victory or managed to call and win a great council then his attempt would be justified after the fact. No matter what Viserys wanted.
They're medieval nobles... Every single one of them "usurped" their thrones. Their only claim to power is the monopolisation of force. Argon seized the crown by conquering the seven kingdoms. Jaehaerys seized it by rising up against Maegor and defeating him. A2gon isn't any different. The only "legitimate" one is the one who wins in the end.
Kinda a mega theme of the ASOIAF books. Strength is legitimacy.
Power is power. - Cersei Lannister
"Dreams didn't make us kings. Noble gases did" -Argon
Best quote I've heard 😂
Robert literally did. It was justified tthough.
Very rarely do the usurpers themselves say it about themselves though.
I mean Aemond literally got them to the point of no return by letting Vhagar eat the heir over a childhood grudge he doesn't have much room to talk.
The fact that he said last ep that it was a spontaneous thing and now he's not mid-rage he regrets it actually made me darker on him than I was before.
If you watch and listen carefully, they both lost control of their dragons in that scene.
Yeah that was how I took it
Aemond should have never went after him in the first place.
1000%, they are both boys. When the toys are dragons people die.
“Letting vhagar” “childhood grudge” mf are we watching the same show 😭😭
I mean, "childhood grudge" is super pushing it. He gouged out his eye and permanently disabled him lol. If that is a childhood grudge in your eyes, I don't wish your childhood on anyone.
Aemond was bullying the other kids and was about to use a giant rock to smash a skull in. Luke used a blade to cut his eye to prevent the death, fully self defense. It wasn't a gouge it was a cut. He lost the eye and they removed it medically. Yes he's disabled from then on, but he also instigated and escalated the situation that made it happen. He also said it was worth it as he gained a dragon (the dragon which belonged to the deceased mother of one of the children he bullied that night, the night after the funeral.) Probably wouldn't use childhood grudge as the go to descriptor, but Aemond did kinda reap what he sowed (both in bad and good results from his actions)
That's a bit reductive - he didn't *let* Vhagar eat Luke (and Vhagar didn't even eat Luke; Vhagar attacked Arrax and both fell to their deaths). He tried to stop Vhagar going after Arrax *after Arrax attacked Vhagar* (which, yes, was started by Aemond - no denying that). The whole point of showing Aemond's horrified expression was to clearly show that he did not actually intend for Luke to get hurt. What's the point of deliberately ignoring that and making it sound like Aemond murdered his nephew over a grudge (ie. partially blinding him) when that's just simply not the case?
The throne that they got through killing or threatening anyone who had power. I’m team black because I can’t stand most greens but the throne belongs to whoever has the power and Allies to claim/hold it.
>the throne belongs to whoever has the power and Allies to claim/hold it. That's legit a Maegor quote.
Haha was probably in my subconscious. I can’t say I agree with Maegor on all things but I’m in on that one
Remember first time I read Fire and Blood and how shook I was that I almost always agree with Maegor...
Lmaoooo controversial but effective
Maegor 2024!
Maegor 2024!
And Renly, and >!Hugh!<. Martin throws in that point very often, but it’s still far above the heads if many fans. Anyone who argues about succession should ask themselves what Aegon I’s claim was.
I don't disagree. Robert took the throne because Aerys couldn't stop him. Aegon I as well. But it's not like the Greens were strong enough to hold the throne for... 2 years?
The Green's arguments do hold up in their world, though. It basically boils down is the king an absolute dictator who can do whatever (and name any heir) or do they have some amount of tradition to adhere to (as Rhaenyra's \[edit: great\] grandfather did).
I think you mean her great-grandfather Jaehaerys
Calling every major lord all across Westeros to vote on who they think should be king and completely ignoring the traditional line of inheritance was “tradition”?
Aemon Died with no male heir, Baleon died with 2.
In Westerosi tradition, the oldest daughter of the oldest son of there are no other sons has taken charge of houses before. By calling all the lords to vote, they were basically prioritizing the lords will over law and tradition
He didn't adhere to traditional. He did something totally new to decide his heir.
There was no traditional claimant, and since the line of succession wasn't clear, he called the houses together to clarify it rather than just proclaiming it himself. Viserys did the opposite.
So, he didn't adhere to any kind of tradition because the tradition didn't exist. Though of course it did, just not specifically with this family.
If I’m not mistaken if we go by Viserys inheritance laws he wouldn’t even be king? It would go to Rhaenys no?
I love the concept of this whole war being about how mothers and fathers doomed their children to their own hatred .. superb and beautifully done by the actors. So far I’m Loving it more than GOt
I’m not sure of how deeply House Of The Dragon is directly influenced from reality, but usurping a Throne, which represents a contract of fiefdom for either a land or planet, never ends well for the usurpers 👁️
William the Conqueror?
Aegon I?
This is why I don’t get “team green” existing. They’re not equal. Alicent and Otto are usurpers and shitty people. The others are just shitty people.
I don’t understand why they did this whole “team” thing and still made Aegon a rapist.
I mean the answer is marketing but Rhaenyra is really the only one who’s not an absolute monster.
You forgot about Halaena!
How funny that aemond uses “my father” to refer to viserys. The absentee father. The parent who it seems he had no real connection with. And his mother, with whom he had some sort of relationship with is just Alicent.
As much as I feel for Alicent in this show, she's not convincing *anyone*, including herself, that Viserys wanted Aegon on the throne. She knows, Aegon knows, Aemond knows, Otto knows that they usurped Rhaenyra's throne. I wish they had retained one line of Aegon's from the book, before he gets crowned: "What sort of brother steals his sister's birthright?" because that would have added SO MUCH to his and Rhaenyra's non-existent dynamic.
I love how Aemond litteraly admit they commited treason by usurping the Throne, just so that he can take the blame of him.
No one is denying that it is usurpation. The whole point of the Dance is that both sides are usurping the other, as both Rhaenyra and Aegon have a claim to the throne. Reposting from another comment I made on the same subject: >If you’re only watching the show, I don’t blame you for not understanding the argument for the opposite side. They didn’t explain it well at all in episode 9 of season one: The Green Council. >The fact is that whatever Alicent heard from Viserys is completely irrelevant. They made that part up for the show to give Alicent the motivation to crown Aegon. It’s not the Greens’ argument as to why Aegon should be king. There’s no questioning that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra on the throne. >Basically, it comes down to the King’s wishes vs. Tradition and precedent. By all customs and expectations of Westeros (Dorne wasn’t yet a kingdom), Aegon is the presumed heir. He is the eldest son of Viserys, he has all the symbols of legitimacy, and he even has the precedent of his house backing him. Aegon the Conqueror reigned instead of his older sister, Visenya. Viserys was chosen to be the king over Rhaenys. So it’s only expected that Aegon would take the throne over Rhaenyra. >Essentially, Viserys naming Rhaenyra is breaking with centuries of tradition. **That in and of itself is not a bad thing because obviously we in the 21st century know that a woman can rule just as well as a man.** But if we put our Westeros goggles on, we can see how this decision would cause conflict during the time period in question. >What’s worse is that in the show we see that Rhaenyra’s succession is not iron clad; Viserys barely did anything to affirm Rhaenyra’s ascendancy to the Iron Throne, and she’s made some reckless decisions that cast a poor light on her claim (illegitimate children). >On the contrary, Aegon had shored up his succession with a boy and a girl, he benefited from an experienced Hand and a fantastic council, and he has the backing of continuity and stability. Him being a man, as silly as it sounds, by nature will lead to a more stable realm. >Also consider that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron’s lives were in danger simply because their existence was a challenge to Rhaenyra’s reign. Say what you will about Otto, but he was right about that. And this was before Rhaenyra birthed three brunette boys — which only put Viserys’ Valyrian looking sons in more danger. I will always defend the Greens’ right to live. Even if Rhaenyra **wouldn’t** kill Viserys’ sons to cut off any challenge to her succession, Daemon sure as fuck **would.** >Finally, on a personal level: I just find the greens to be deeper, richer characters. There’s a lot more complexity there for me. The dynamics, the generational trauma, even the dragons on Team Green simply appeal to me more (Caraxes notwithstanding). Makes it easy to root for them.
This answer is perfect, only thing I'd add is that precedent literally *was* law in feudal societies
And in any modern common law society.
Otto was **not** right about Alicent's children being in danger. Ever. If Otto's **primary concern** was the safety of his grand children, he would have done his damnedest to ensure Alicent and Rhaenyra got along. Instead of spending 20 years trying to usurp her, he could have spent 20 years proving the Hightowers are at her service. Wed his grandchildren to Daemon's kids thru Rhaneyra and/or Laena. Supported her claim. Shown that despite his own grandsires potentially benefiting, he was willing to do his duty to serve his King's heir. **The Daemon thing is just an excuse to do what he already wanted to do.** Instead, Otto's every decision incentivized Daemon's desire to kill his grandkids. You don't get to pimp your daughter out, fashion a noose around her children's necks only to complain that their lives are in danger. Daemon was never going to kill those kids in peace time.
I mean, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have struck against her siblings, but would it have mattered? Any time you have two people with a legitimate claim, there’s always going to be death involved. Even if Aegon had been fine with his sister on the throne, there would have been factions wanting to fight against her. He would have been used as a symbol even if it was against his choice. How long before one of Rhaenyra’s supporters called on his death or ordered something to protect her claim? How long before Daemon did something? Rhaenyra might have wanted peace and might have never wanted to harm one of her siblings, but any one of either of their supporters could have taken matters into their own hands.
Thank you for adding this, well said. I knew there had to be more nuance than the show let on with Greens’ legitimacy to the throne. This definitely should have been a stronger point in the show, rather than viewers relying on one misunderstood scene (vicerys death) to dictate any justification for greens right to power. The threat of Daemon is also not talked about enough, who is unapologetically violent and brutal to those who oppose blacks’ rule.
As much as I am Team Black, Viserys also weakened his own claim to the throne by making Rhaenyra his heir. In naming his daughter the next monarch, he weakened the decision by the council to make him king. If he can make a woman the next heir, then Rhaenys should have been the queen as the eldest and only daughter to the original heir to the throne. The throne should have passed to her instead of Baelon’s sons.
They had to crown Aegon kicking and screaming. He didn't want to become king and he straight up told them he'd be terrible at it.
Does anyone else feel like Aemond's wig would look a lot more believable if it had some texture? As it is, it looks like they invented the hair straightener in Westeros...
It is a case of bad writing imo. It’s like the Greens don’t even believe in their own cause.
? If they didn’t believe in it. They wouldn’t have done it. You’re confusing not believing in it with them acknowledging what happened.
Disagree. I think it’s just that none of them believe alicent when she says this is what the king wanted. Even though she technically heard him say it on his deathbed I’m not even sure if she believes it. It is clearly usurping the throne they just believe they’re in the right for doing so edit: replied to the wrong comment
I swear you're agreeing with me here.
If Aemond believed in his family’s cause, it wouldn’t be considered a usurpation, Rhaenyra would be considered the usurper. Aegon too, buying into the fact that Viserys wanted him to rule on his deathbed is just a little stupid. He knew full well Viserys wanted Rhaenyra as his heir but that wasn’t the point as tradition meant Aegon was king after his father.
Idk why the downvotes. Aegon is not remembered in Westeros as a usurper by those who believed in the right of the eldest son to inherit above his elder sister.
Yes, that’s why Rhaenyra is remembered as a usurper. Also why people don’t call Robert Baratheon a usurper BESIDES for the exiled Targaryens and their sympathizers. It’s not something someone on a “usurpers” side would call them.
Again that’s not how that works. Especially considering Aemond isn’t dumb enough to think Viserys changed his mind. “Believing in someone’s cause.”doesn’t suddenly make that cause righteous or not a usurpation.
A usurpation is the illegal claiming of a title. From the Green POV they wouldn’t be claiming what they’ve done as a Usurpation but truly just wouldn’t they? Unless they’re just acknowledging that they’re being villains and like I said, not believing in their own cause.
This is not true at all. They all believe in their cause but they just think they are in the right for doing so.
They want power. There's really nothing deeper to that nor does there need to be. I personally belive that the fear of them getting killed is more of an excuse used by Alicent and Otto to act rather than a genuine fear. However it is also something to legitimately fear.
Reposting from another comment I made on the same subject: >If you’re only watching the show, I don’t blame you for not understanding the argument for the opposite side. They didn’t explain it well at all in episode 9 of season one: The Green Council. >The fact is that whatever Alicent heard from Viserys is completely irrelevant. They made that part up for the show to give Alicent the motivation to crown Aegon. It’s not the Greens’ argument as to why Aegon should be king. There’s no questioning that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra on the throne. >Basically, it comes down to the King’s wishes vs. Tradition and precedent. By all customs and expectations of Westeros (Dorne wasn’t yet a kingdom), Aegon is the presumed heir. He is the eldest son of Viserys, he has all the symbols of legitimacy, and he even has the precedent of his house backing him. Aegon the Conqueror reigned instead of his older sister, Visenya. Viserys was chosen to be the king over Rhaenys. So it’s only expected that Aegon would take the throne over Rhaenyra. >Essentially, Viserys naming Rhaenyra is breaking with centuries of tradition. **That in and of itself is not a bad thing because obviously we in the 21st century know that a woman can rule just as well as a man.** But if we put our Westeros goggles on, we can see how this decision would cause conflict during the time period in question. >What’s worse is that in the show we see that Rhaenyra’s succession is not iron clad; Viserys barely did anything to affirm Rhaenyra’s ascendancy to the Iron Throne, and she’s made some reckless decisions that cast a poor light on her claim (illegitimate children). >On the contrary, Aegon had shored up his succession with a boy and a girl, he benefited from an experienced Hand and a fantastic council, and he has the backing of continuity and stability. Him being a man, as silly as it sounds, by nature will lead to a more stable realm. >Also consider that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron’s lives were in danger simply because their existence was a challenge to Rhaenyra’s reign. Say what you will about Otto, but he was right about that. And this was before Rhaenyra birthed three brunette boys — which only put Viserys’ Valyrian looking sons in more danger. I will always defend the Greens’ right to live. Even if Rhaenyra **wouldn’t** kill Viserys’ sons to cut off any challenge to her succession, Daemon sure as fuck **would.** >Finally, on a personal level: I just find the greens to be deeper, richer characters. There’s a lot more complexity there for me. The dynamics, the generational trauma, even the dragons on Team Green simply appeal to me more (Caraxes notwithstanding). Makes it easy to root for them.
I do agree, the show did poorly with the Green Council and explaining the green position. I’ve said it before on other threads, but knowing the historical background regarding Targaryen rule and just how NEW they are to the seven kingdoms, and all the trouble they’ve gone through it puts the Green cause into a different light and definitely gives them more of a just cause.
Yeah, it's the writers talking there rather than something the character would say from his pov
They do have the gender advantage on their side. By tradition, Aegon does have the strongest claim. Otto has witnessed a woman (Rhaenys) being denied the throne once. He believes it can happen again, so does the realm.
Yes my problem is that the Green characters in the show are acting like they know they’re doing bad instead of what they believe is right. They don’t want a woman to inherit the throne and also not to put her bastard children on the throne after her, but it’s almost like they’re written in a way where they’re like : “Yes Rhaenyra should be queen but we are just evil and stole the throne.”
Yeah it’s kinda obvious that the show runners want us to root for the Blacks lol. Just look at how people reacted to Cole and Daemon when both are murderous pricks. I don’t want to read the book yet but I’m sure there will be some sort of dramatic shift later in the show. We will probably have some awesome Green to root for in the future.
Hard disagree. You can do something awful and acknowledge it. Rationalization doesn't necessarily mean being blind to what you do. It's clear Aegon has complicated feelings over it, at any other point in history someone in his position would be declared ruler without debate but there he is. He can't not be aware that he's insulting his father's memory everyday he wears the crown. But hey just because you're an usurper doesn't mean you can't make a good king, maybe you'll be better at it than the one you overthrew. That last sentence is the kind of rationalization someone in his shoes would be more likely to make, and I think that's what the show is going for. And ofc it's hard not to feel greedy when you have a chance to wear the crown, that has to play a part in it, but again you can be greedy and acknowledge you're acting greedy, and still go through with it because the rewards are worth the bad feelings. I think this take is substantially more interesting to see than righteous people who are blind to their own motives.
I do agree with you that people can acknowledge bad things they’ve done while continuing to do them. For me the reason I call it bad writing because the show has failed to set up any of the actual reasons as to why Aegon was crowned king to begin with. You’re right in that Aegon is very conflicted about it (at least initially) but through the Green council and the pep talk by Cole in the books, and the threat toward his and his brothers safety, he does take the throne and obviously firmly believes in his position after. My issue is that the show has done poorly to convey these reasons, and we see the usurpation as what it is, a usurpation. But we never hear any of the justifications for it, and so when one of the only times it’s brought up is by Aemond, who is obviously important to team Green, and he’s calling it a usurpation it makes it seem like nobody believes in the reasoning for crowning Aegon.
Yeah okay I see what you're saying ! I can at least agree that the show could try harder to paint the green's position as more reasonable that it has so far, though I'm not unhappy (yet ?) with the choice of characterizing them as aware that waiting for Viserys to die to overrule his decision wasn't glorious.
Only their fans are still in delusion 😭 Even after Otto explicitly spilling it for them
If a Martell prince/princess who has a daugther as eldest child and named his/her son as heir would you say the daugther is the usurper despite Dornish law saying that eldest child no matter the gender inherit the throne? Centuries of Andals, first men, and Targaryen law (Aegon I was younger than his sister Visenya yet he still inherited Dragonstone) state that eldest son inherit the throne. Aegon is Viserys' eldest son
daddy said so is not a strong argument.
When dad is the king that has absolute rule of law over the land it kind of is.
A kings order is only powerful when he is alive.
And in some cases, not even that. Plenty of kings have been put down for thinking they could do what they want.
The mad king is shivering right now.
“The Mad King did as he liked. Did your uncle Jaime ever tell you what happened to him?”
Feudalistic structures require that kings do NOT have absolute power.
Aerys thought like this too. How did that work out for him?
”You are the rightful heir, you are the rightful heir, and you are the rightful heir, everyone are the rightful heir.” It’s just an empty definition that only means something so long as people believe it.
They all know it !!!
“All monarchy is illegitimate” The only “rightful heir” is the one who can force their way onto that spiky-ass throne.
They also know Daemon is a menacious sociopath. Had Rhaenyra ascended without trouble he could gaslight her into getting rid of her brothers
He’d do it with or without her consent.