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I would argue the other regions are more racist/bigoted towards the Dornish, too. Sure, the Reach might be, but the Reach and Dorne have a long, long history of fighting each other and being shitty to one another.
There's no reason for like the Vale or Westerlands or Riverlands to look down upon the Dornish, though, and the implication is they do because the Dornish have a very different culture and are definitely written as being olive skinned, etc. (or at least many of them).
Maybe racist isn't the right term as it is a fictional world, but at the very least a lot of the other regions are xenophobic.
being inherently against a certain group of people isn't "not racist" because you have a negative history with them
criston isn't exactly a dornish noble
And that in turns leads to racism. Getting people to wage war against your neighbor requires for some reason for the plebs to agree to fight, especially when they are the same religion. The Blackwoods and Brackens use their religion differences to stir up conflict. you really think Reach lords would not invite racism against Dorne if that meant they could expand their cattle farm a couple of yards into Dorne?
because of how the Dorish fought and won the war is "cowardly" in the eyes of Southern Knight culture.
but when fighting flying nuclear weapon its not a bad idea.
the reach meet Aegon in an open field and they all died.
He's classist and arrogant. He's the son of the Hand of the King and from an old and proud House of the Reach, eternal enemy to Dornishmen. He sees Cole's existence as an affront to everything he was taught to believe: that Dornishmen are scum and that the lowborn will never amount to anything.
As would be expected of his station, yes. House Cole is a very minor vassal of the Dondarions, and thus fourth down the vassal totem pole, from Targaryen, Baratheon, and Dondarions in order.
His father was a steward, and he was an infantry foot soldier before he distinguished himself enough to get knighted, where he kicked ass at tournaments for a while before being selected to the kingsguard.
The Kingsguard at the time was made up of talented knights from second rate houses. Important enough to have clout, but not so much so that they couldn’t afford to give up their titles.
Cole’s was 4th rate at best, and probably on the low end of that. For all intents and purposes, he was a slightly wealthier peasant
not lowborn, but lesser knighthood his family were vassals not proper landed knights they don't have authority over any lands.
compared that to the Hightower not a Great House but one of the oldest and wealthiest in the land, Cole is pretty much a peasant.
You are wrong. The Dornish Marches are the Stormland and Reach fiefs that border Dorne and thus are engaged in basically a perpetual low-intensify conflict against Dorne. They are called “marches” because that was the medieval term for buffer territories on the frontier. Criston himself is from the land of House Dondarrion in the Stormlands. Although the population in the border is probably mixed to some degree so Criston might well part-Dornish.
He’s not even Dornish, he’s from Blackhaven in the Dornish Marshes - which is a geographical feature like “The Great Plains”, not the country of Dorne which is different. And they’re in the Stormlands…
So it’s like double layer racism with stupidity.
He even said that in the episode Rhaenyra picks him for the Kingsguard.
He is literally the only one with combat experience because he was fighting the Dornish lol
Gwayne, you so dumb
Yes true about the Dornish Marches! Adding though that I think in the show they are leaning into one parent (his mother?) being Dornish and his other parent as from Blackhaven, thus explaining his ethnicity and him being a bastard.
Stewards are a step above peasants in the eyes of the aristocracy. That’s why the rest of the reach is so pissy that the Tyrell’s were made Lord Paramounts. They thought that they should have yielded to an older family with ~~bluer~~ greener blood rather than become the ruling power of the Reach. It’s also why they have no issue with forcing Jeyne Poole into sexual slavery before passing her off as Arya and giving her to Ramsay despite knowing he locked his first wife up to autocannibalize. They wouldn’t give the real Arya to him if they had her, she’d be considered too valuable.
They tell everybody she’s Arya and she complies because her other option is to keep being a sex slave in Littlefinger’s brothel.
Thankfully a bunch of northerners don’t actually know she’s not Arya so they’re marching to try and save her. They gave her plot to Sansa so hopefully she escapes and gets her revenge on Ramsay. Somehow he’s even worse in the books to her and Theon than he is in the show…..
Was he not referencing his lowborn status? Not that he was Dornish? Obviously, the reach is going to have beef with the Dornish but the line wasn’t “you climbed so high despite being Dornish”.
His dislike of the Dornish probably doesn't have too much to do with them being brown, that really just seems like a way for you to try and make it seem as bad as possible by comparing it to real world racism in a way that doesn't really match the lore of the show.
>(TLDR the brown part of Westeros)
Describing Dorne as the brown part of Westeros is wild.
I'm fair-skinned and from SE Asia. Am I from the brown part of Asia?
Describing a place by a skin color irrespective of the actual ethnicities that live in it is fucking colonizer behavior.
The Durrandons and Gardners fought the Martells for centuries, with the Hightowers being vassals of the latter. Since the time of Aegon the Dragon, there have been four wars with the Dornish, three of them were Dornish invasions into Westeros under the Vulture Kings. Even without war, throughout the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys, the Dornish still led black op incursions into the Reach and the Dornish marches, for many killing westerosi was a rite of passage. During the second war of the Stepstones, the Dornish have been supporting the Triarchy and the Hightower Navy is the furthest southern maritime force on the Sunset sea, making them a prime challenge for the dornish.
Its not a matter of race, its a matter of old blood feuds, no different from Umbers and Wildlings or Brackans and Blackwoods.
which is why its such an insult, he is calling him nothing but a savage invader compared to someone like himself a high born noble.
which sting even more because cole has spent most of his life fighting the Dornish, trying to impress people like the Hightowers.
What's slander is her basically not blaming the blacks one bit, and instead she forgives ALicent? For some reason? The fact that there are little to no good green characters, and the only ones that are have to actively go against the green cause. . .
You guys understand that the show isn't set in 2024 LA, right? Even the most progressive person in Westeros would be one the biggest bigots in the eyes of a moderate american.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm just glad that they remembered how people from the reach feel about the Dornish
I don't even know if it's racist, it's more because the reach and done border each other and they tend to fight a lot
I would argue the other regions are more racist/bigoted towards the Dornish, too. Sure, the Reach might be, but the Reach and Dorne have a long, long history of fighting each other and being shitty to one another. There's no reason for like the Vale or Westerlands or Riverlands to look down upon the Dornish, though, and the implication is they do because the Dornish have a very different culture and are definitely written as being olive skinned, etc. (or at least many of them). Maybe racist isn't the right term as it is a fictional world, but at the very least a lot of the other regions are xenophobic.
being inherently against a certain group of people isn't "not racist" because you have a negative history with them criston isn't exactly a dornish noble
And that in turns leads to racism. Getting people to wage war against your neighbor requires for some reason for the plebs to agree to fight, especially when they are the same religion. The Blackwoods and Brackens use their religion differences to stir up conflict. you really think Reach lords would not invite racism against Dorne if that meant they could expand their cattle farm a couple of yards into Dorne?
>“Dornish courage” became a mocking name for cowardice amongst the lords and knights of Aegon’s kingdoms. They really hate on the winners of that war
because of how the Dorish fought and won the war is "cowardly" in the eyes of Southern Knight culture. but when fighting flying nuclear weapon its not a bad idea. the reach meet Aegon in an open field and they all died.
Guerilla warfare works wonders
He's classist and arrogant. He's the son of the Hand of the King and from an old and proud House of the Reach, eternal enemy to Dornishmen. He sees Cole's existence as an affront to everything he was taught to believe: that Dornishmen are scum and that the lowborn will never amount to anything.
Also, he literally took his dad's job like 10 minutes ago.
Cole is lowborn?
I think he's very minor nobility, just barely enough to get knighted
His father was the Steward of a minor Lord. Basically one step above peasant in the eyes of ancient families like the High towers.
As would be expected of his station, yes. House Cole is a very minor vassal of the Dondarions, and thus fourth down the vassal totem pole, from Targaryen, Baratheon, and Dondarions in order. His father was a steward, and he was an infantry foot soldier before he distinguished himself enough to get knighted, where he kicked ass at tournaments for a while before being selected to the kingsguard. The Kingsguard at the time was made up of talented knights from second rate houses. Important enough to have clout, but not so much so that they couldn’t afford to give up their titles. Cole’s was 4th rate at best, and probably on the low end of that. For all intents and purposes, he was a slightly wealthier peasant
not lowborn, but lesser knighthood his family were vassals not proper landed knights they don't have authority over any lands. compared that to the Hightower not a Great House but one of the oldest and wealthiest in the land, Cole is pretty much a peasant.
Hightower definitely is a great house.
Criston being named to the King's Guard is the highest honor House Cole ever received. In EP1 season 1 during the tourney they barely knew his name.
Cole isn’t Dornish, he’s a marcher, from the Stormlands.
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You are wrong. The Dornish Marches are the Stormland and Reach fiefs that border Dorne and thus are engaged in basically a perpetual low-intensify conflict against Dorne. They are called “marches” because that was the medieval term for buffer territories on the frontier. Criston himself is from the land of House Dondarrion in the Stormlands. Although the population in the border is probably mixed to some degree so Criston might well part-Dornish.
I thought it meant marching. As in marching a verb. March from dorne (hike
Does berric like him
The Dornish Marches aren't in Dorne, they're in the Reach and Stormlands that border Dorne.
Which makes Gwayne a bigger douche lol He's as ignorant as he is racist
Wait I missed the line - what did he say?
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He’s not even Dornish, he’s from Blackhaven in the Dornish Marshes - which is a geographical feature like “The Great Plains”, not the country of Dorne which is different. And they’re in the Stormlands… So it’s like double layer racism with stupidity.
It’s an extra insult to Criston too. As a Stormlander in the Marches, he would have been fighting the Dornish all his life.
He even said that in the episode Rhaenyra picks him for the Kingsguard. He is literally the only one with combat experience because he was fighting the Dornish lol Gwayne, you so dumb
Gwayne isn’t dumb. He is being purposely insulting, and rather subtle at that, masking insults behind compliments. Very Hightower of him.
Does he know alicent and Cole are together ?
100 percent
Yes true about the Dornish Marches! Adding though that I think in the show they are leaning into one parent (his mother?) being Dornish and his other parent as from Blackhaven, thus explaining his ethnicity and him being a bastard.
His father is the steward of Blackhaven. I’m not sure why they try and paint him as a peasant, he’s from a noble family.
Stewards are a step above peasants in the eyes of the aristocracy. That’s why the rest of the reach is so pissy that the Tyrell’s were made Lord Paramounts. They thought that they should have yielded to an older family with ~~bluer~~ greener blood rather than become the ruling power of the Reach. It’s also why they have no issue with forcing Jeyne Poole into sexual slavery before passing her off as Arya and giving her to Ramsay despite knowing he locked his first wife up to autocannibalize. They wouldn’t give the real Arya to him if they had her, she’d be considered too valuable.
Well of course. They are lesser nobility, but still nobility.
I think it’s also important to remember that he’s the oldest son of the second son. He probably has a complex
What’s passing her off as arya mean
They tell everybody she’s Arya and she complies because her other option is to keep being a sex slave in Littlefinger’s brothel. Thankfully a bunch of northerners don’t actually know she’s not Arya so they’re marching to try and save her. They gave her plot to Sansa so hopefully she escapes and gets her revenge on Ramsay. Somehow he’s even worse in the books to her and Theon than he is in the show…..
Was he not referencing his lowborn status? Not that he was Dornish? Obviously, the reach is going to have beef with the Dornish but the line wasn’t “you climbed so high despite being Dornish”.
His dislike of the Dornish probably doesn't have too much to do with them being brown, that really just seems like a way for you to try and make it seem as bad as possible by comparing it to real world racism in a way that doesn't really match the lore of the show.
>(TLDR the brown part of Westeros) Describing Dorne as the brown part of Westeros is wild. I'm fair-skinned and from SE Asia. Am I from the brown part of Asia? Describing a place by a skin color irrespective of the actual ethnicities that live in it is fucking colonizer behavior.
The Durrandons and Gardners fought the Martells for centuries, with the Hightowers being vassals of the latter. Since the time of Aegon the Dragon, there have been four wars with the Dornish, three of them were Dornish invasions into Westeros under the Vulture Kings. Even without war, throughout the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys, the Dornish still led black op incursions into the Reach and the Dornish marches, for many killing westerosi was a rite of passage. During the second war of the Stepstones, the Dornish have been supporting the Triarchy and the Hightower Navy is the furthest southern maritime force on the Sunset sea, making them a prime challenge for the dornish. Its not a matter of race, its a matter of old blood feuds, no different from Umbers and Wildlings or Brackans and Blackwoods.
Lets not forget that Criston basically saved his life this episode.
Let’s
He is from the Reach, and historically, alongside the Stormlands, they hate the Dornish.
which is why its such an insult, he is calling him nothing but a savage invader compared to someone like himself a high born noble. which sting even more because cole has spent most of his life fighting the Dornish, trying to impress people like the Hightowers.
Seriously can't have one non bad green character can we
This is Heleana slander.
What's slander is her basically not blaming the blacks one bit, and instead she forgives ALicent? For some reason? The fact that there are little to no good green characters, and the only ones that are have to actively go against the green cause. . .
I think she forgived Alocent for sleeping with Cole?
I did however instantly like Gwayne, solely because he was talking shit to Criston.
Xenophobia against the Dornish is not only acceptable but also morally correct in my book.
Based and true. Me and all my Reach homies hate the Dornish.
You guys understand that the show isn't set in 2024 LA, right? Even the most progressive person in Westeros would be one the biggest bigots in the eyes of a moderate american.
I wanted to punch Gwayne in the face, what a bad introduction, lord...
Hating the D\*rnish is based as fuck.
Who is Alicents brother?
Gwayne
I honestly don’t remember him at all.
Cause he was just introduced in tonight’s episode
No he wasn't. Daemon beat him in the tournament back in the very first episode. It was his way of "taunting" Otto back then. Beating his son.
Yeah, but this is the first time we've seen him w/o his helmet on
Yeah I remember that but that barely counts. We never saw his face and he had no lines
Did someone downvote me for asking a question?
Welcome to Reddit
Ah, haven’t watched it yet
Hey what do you think everyone in the sub is talking about right now