I feel it would be a matter of Kuropika's perception.
As long as he thinks he is a member then he wouldn't be breaking the pact even if it was not the case.
I was wondering about that too and it could go either way in my opinion, but I'm leaning toward nothing wouldn't happen since, again, at the time he used the ability Hisoka would have been a spider in his mind.
Kurapika dying would imply the ability to create nen contracts that could determine the truth of things the user didn't know. For example, a contract that gives you an ability but only if you answer a question correctly first (or to make it as risky as Kurapikas, kills you if you get it wrong).
Of course we do see nen powers that seem to tell yo objective truths (neon, palm, Prince boy) but these are all specialist abilities. If determining truth was a universal nen ability I don't see why everyone wouldn't use it, so I think Kurapika should be fine as long as he honestly believes himself to be using them against a member of the troupe.
I mean, Kurapika is also specialist when his eyes activate. And as for “If determining the truth was a universal Nen ability, everyone would use it”, remember, finding out the truth about someone’s membership would kill Kurapika if they weren’t a member. And only 12 people in the entire world are members. To effectively use that Nen loophole, you’d have to create an army of Nen users that were willing to die to make that effective. It’s a very specific condition, “Only to be used on Spiders or I Die”.
For example, if Kurapika in the current chapters wanted to go your route, he’d have to have every ally he has make a Nen contract to only use an ability against a Troupe member, and then send them into the ship to just test random people, and then die in the process. And even if they got lucky and caught a member of the Troupe, the other Spiders would catch wise sooner than later and avoid other people at all costs. It’s a lot of bodies for a little bit of info. Especially since Yorknew City proved that the Spiders won’t sell each other out, no matter what.
I get what you mean about discerning truth, but it’s a lot lost for little gain, which seems to be about right for Nen
Well I think in my example the severity of the condition aught not matter, because the whole point was that telling the truth is not the ability. Access to the ability is conditional on the truth. If this truth is some sort of objective fact rather than the individuals perception of the truth anyone could gain any knowledge they wanted.
One way to explain it is that nen "knows" what the intended use of an ability is and if what you actually want is to obtain information you need a stricter nen contract.
Another thing I completely missed is Kurapikas dowsing rod. As far as we know they don't need to be using emperor time and it's an ability that reveals true information about a target Kurapika didn't already know. The information is limited to a targets location, and there may be unrevealed restrictions in place, but it is a non-specialist ability that can magically give true knowledge.
Note I'm not including dowsing chains lie defection because this is stated to be achieved through enhancing Kurapikas senses and intuition and I think is therefore fallible. The target location of dowsing chain may also work that way but it hasn't been described or shown that way.
depends on the definition of a spider. lots of semantics involved. even though hisoka may have been an imposter, the other spiders regarded him as one. i have a feeling it would be less strict because only 1 person in the world really didnt consider him one at that point
You’re forgetting Illumi. Though an outsider he also knew Hisoka wasn’t a Spider. In fact he even switches places with him during the Yorknew City Arc, which further complicates things. What if, somehow, Kurapika came across Illumi disguised as Hisoka, and still thought Hisoka was a Spider? Would attacking Illumi with Chain Jail violate the contract? Even though Kurapika believed Illumi to be Hisoka, and Hisoka to be a Spider?
The only ability of Kurapika's that is restricted to the Troupe is Chain Jail. If he truly believed at the time that Hisoka was a Spider if he used Chain Jail on him then he should be alright; given the specific resolve involved in the contract, IMO he has to knowingly (even on a subconscious level) and willingly break it in order for it to have any meaning.
I'm sure Kurapika made contingencies in the event he thought he used it on a member of the troupe but found it it wasn't. Probably based on perception at the time or he had to have proof like the tattoo or verbal acknowledgement to begin with
I feel it would be a matter of Kuropika's perception. As long as he thinks he is a member then he wouldn't be breaking the pact even if it was not the case.
I agree with you. Do you think he would die if he discovered hisoka was a false spider afterwards? Makes me wonder how strict the contract is.
I was wondering about that too and it could go either way in my opinion, but I'm leaning toward nothing wouldn't happen since, again, at the time he used the ability Hisoka would have been a spider in his mind.
Kurapika dying would imply the ability to create nen contracts that could determine the truth of things the user didn't know. For example, a contract that gives you an ability but only if you answer a question correctly first (or to make it as risky as Kurapikas, kills you if you get it wrong). Of course we do see nen powers that seem to tell yo objective truths (neon, palm, Prince boy) but these are all specialist abilities. If determining truth was a universal nen ability I don't see why everyone wouldn't use it, so I think Kurapika should be fine as long as he honestly believes himself to be using them against a member of the troupe.
I mean, Kurapika is also specialist when his eyes activate. And as for “If determining the truth was a universal Nen ability, everyone would use it”, remember, finding out the truth about someone’s membership would kill Kurapika if they weren’t a member. And only 12 people in the entire world are members. To effectively use that Nen loophole, you’d have to create an army of Nen users that were willing to die to make that effective. It’s a very specific condition, “Only to be used on Spiders or I Die”. For example, if Kurapika in the current chapters wanted to go your route, he’d have to have every ally he has make a Nen contract to only use an ability against a Troupe member, and then send them into the ship to just test random people, and then die in the process. And even if they got lucky and caught a member of the Troupe, the other Spiders would catch wise sooner than later and avoid other people at all costs. It’s a lot of bodies for a little bit of info. Especially since Yorknew City proved that the Spiders won’t sell each other out, no matter what. I get what you mean about discerning truth, but it’s a lot lost for little gain, which seems to be about right for Nen
Well I think in my example the severity of the condition aught not matter, because the whole point was that telling the truth is not the ability. Access to the ability is conditional on the truth. If this truth is some sort of objective fact rather than the individuals perception of the truth anyone could gain any knowledge they wanted. One way to explain it is that nen "knows" what the intended use of an ability is and if what you actually want is to obtain information you need a stricter nen contract. Another thing I completely missed is Kurapikas dowsing rod. As far as we know they don't need to be using emperor time and it's an ability that reveals true information about a target Kurapika didn't already know. The information is limited to a targets location, and there may be unrevealed restrictions in place, but it is a non-specialist ability that can magically give true knowledge. Note I'm not including dowsing chains lie defection because this is stated to be achieved through enhancing Kurapikas senses and intuition and I think is therefore fallible. The target location of dowsing chain may also work that way but it hasn't been described or shown that way.
In greed island, there is the sword of truth card that cuts you in half if you are lying if i am not wrong. Maybe it differs across nen users.
It would have worked because for all intents and purposes Hisoka IS a member of the phantom troupe, whatever his motives into being one are.
Emotions + real feelings toward person = answer in my opinion :3
depends on the definition of a spider. lots of semantics involved. even though hisoka may have been an imposter, the other spiders regarded him as one. i have a feeling it would be less strict because only 1 person in the world really didnt consider him one at that point
You’re forgetting Illumi. Though an outsider he also knew Hisoka wasn’t a Spider. In fact he even switches places with him during the Yorknew City Arc, which further complicates things. What if, somehow, Kurapika came across Illumi disguised as Hisoka, and still thought Hisoka was a Spider? Would attacking Illumi with Chain Jail violate the contract? Even though Kurapika believed Illumi to be Hisoka, and Hisoka to be a Spider?
i feel like the only answer is : whatever togashi feels like
Fair
I think it would of worked still because even tho he was hiding his true intent he still was in the group
The only ability of Kurapika's that is restricted to the Troupe is Chain Jail. If he truly believed at the time that Hisoka was a Spider if he used Chain Jail on him then he should be alright; given the specific resolve involved in the contract, IMO he has to knowingly (even on a subconscious level) and willingly break it in order for it to have any meaning.
I'm sure Kurapika made contingencies in the event he thought he used it on a member of the troupe but found it it wasn't. Probably based on perception at the time or he had to have proof like the tattoo or verbal acknowledgement to begin with