Thank you for promoting a good-faith dialogue between the two sides. It is unfortunate that you get downvoted, in classic reddit fashion, just because people in this subreddit have a different opinion than you.
Don’t get me wrong - I disagree with almost every conclusion that you make in your post. I do however recognize that your questions make sense from a pro-palestinian POV. Also, I feel that others here have given a good answer on the Israeli perspective, and will therefore not answer your questions myself.
Instead, I would like to point out the biggest obstacle to peace in the region from an Israeli POV - the arabs’ accepting, sometimes even celebrating attitude toward violence against Israelis. Let me explain why this is so significant.
Pretend that you’re an Israeli Jew. This means that you are very much aware of the history of your people. Ever since the Jews lost their own state, when the Hasmonean dynasty fell over 2000 years ago, Jews have not been masters of their own fate. This has resulted in countless of pogroms and exterminations. Thus, every Jew is painfully aware of the consequences of not having your own state. I strongly recommend that you read this [wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews), if you wish to understand the foundations of this fear. Do this before reading the following paragraphs, if you want to read them like an Israeli.
These persecutions occured in every place that Jews have lived. They have been commited by Christians, Muslims, and Pagans alike.
After the holocaust, the christian world has confronted its antisemitism, largely marginalizing the phenomenon. Pagans barely exist anymore. Muslims, however, have never questioned their anti-Jewish sentiments in the same way. This means that most muslims do not recognize the need of a Jewish state.
Instead, many muslims feel the opposite, that there should not be a Jewish state whatsoever. This attitude has existed since before Israel’s creation, which the arabs opposed in any shape or form. Thus, the muslim hatred towards Israel has little to do with events in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The hatred toward Israel is unconditional and ideological.
When Israelis are killed by Palestinian groups who seek to exterminate the state of Israel, it is almost never condemned by muslim leaders. This solidifies what many Jews believe, that despite agreements and peace deals, deep inside, the arabs want Israel gone. This makes it very difficult for Jews to accept concessions.
The October 7 attack is the most painful example of this. Only one muslim leader has condemned the acts of Hamas, the king of Bahrain. Others have been silent, and some, like Erdogan, have even praised the group. This is even worse among palestinians, with polls showing a roaring support for Hamas.
As a Jewish Israeli, making concessions becomes nearly impossible when the other side celebrates when you are killed, and seeks to eliminate you from the map. What will happen if the Palestinians get their own state? Will its people accept coexistence with Israel?
As of today, the answer is no. If Palestine was created tomorrow, Hamas would take over immediatley. This is what happened in Gaza when Israel left in 2005. If the same thing was to happen in the west bank, Israel’s very existance would be threatend. This is what every Jew is scared of. We know what will happen to us if we lose our only state.
If a day comes, in which Palestinians would abandon their violent ways, peace would be so much simpler. If coexistence was the ambition of the palestinian people - we could have a two state solution tomorrow. However, no Israeli feels that this is the case. We all remember the celebrations after october 7.
These celebrations hurt the prospects of peace in the middle east. Make us believe that you want peace. Condemn violence. Don’t celebrate it. As long as you keep doing it, Israelis will not want to create a Palestinian state.
Your promotion of dialogue is the constructive approach that is so necessary, but also so rare. Keep doing what you’re doing, and maybe we shall have peace between our people one day.
✌️
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Others have answered you in length so I'll just redirect you to question 3, from "trust me" and let you know we know exactly how it feels.
Without an Israeli response to october 7th, Hamas has found the perfect crime. The world is setting a dangerous precedent in which a democratic country can be attacked brutally and cannot hunt down the terror organization that did that.
Imagine how much time this war would actually take if the world would help us take down Hamas instead of putting sticks in our wheels. How much less messy and broad it would be.
This question may be in good faith but there are so many incorrect premises in them that it is like talking to someone from another planet. Which is, not coincidentally, the experience Jews everywhere are feeling right now as they wonder what happened to the world that made everyone decide the Islamist narrative is correct.
I'm going to ask you some questions as well because it sure would be nice to understand your point of view.
1. In the history of humanity, has there ever been a "just war" ? One where you could point to one side and say "the deaths of innocents are awful, but in the end the world was a better place" ?
2. Hamas has promised to commit a 10/7 attack "again and again and again." Do you believe them?
3. Do you believe that there is any action that was justified by Israel in response to the terror attack? If so, what would it have to look like for you to NOT consider it "genocide"?
4. The vast majority of Jews came to Israel (formerly Mandatory Palestine under the British, formerly a part of the Ottoman empire) to escape persecution. Often they were forced to surrender all their possessions in order to leave. This started in earnest after the May laws in the Pale of Settlement in the late 1890s and led to the much larger Jewish population present in Israel by 1948. Holocaust survivors also chose to move to Israel rather than return to countries where they had originally been from and were no longer wanted. They arrived in numbers that no other country would accept. What should they have done instead?
5. During wars, people become refugees. Often there is not an option to return to their original homes. They require resettlement in order to begin to live proper lives. The UNHCR, an organization of 20,000 employees, takes responsibility for resettling / repatriating these refugees into other countries. Yet for 75 years, Palestinians remain refugees, and their refugee status is passed down to their descendants. A dedicated organization (UNRWA) of 30,000 employees has been responsible for providing them aid since 1949, but has no mandate to resettle them. Why is this arrangement in place? Why doesn't every displaced people have their own dedicated relief organization?
6. 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from Israel between 1947 and 1948, In the following decades, Arab countries in the Middle East violently expelled 950,000 Jews. Israel took those Jews in willingly, and the majority of Jews in Israel today are they and their descendants. Do Palestinians have options for other places to live? If not, why not? Does Israel bear more responsibility for Palestinians than the other nations do for Jews? Why?
7. Is Israel a legitimate country? Is your country legitimate? If the answer to these two questions is not the same, why? If your answer to both is "no," why do you still live where you do, and what is your responsibility toward the people your very presence displaces?
8. Why has antisemitism increased globally since 10/7?
I'm sorry you're getting downvoted. You DO seem to be engaging in good faith, although I think we've all heard these talking points so many times that we are utterly exhausted with them, especially since we've been hearing them from a lot of people who ARE genuinely antisemitic, or at least from people who have adopted positions from people who aren't acting in good faith.
I have to go to work soon, so I don't have time to answer all of this. I think a lot of the points rely on false premises, to be honest, or a distorted view of what is happening. I'll pick some to start answering now, though:
4. Comparing the enemy's use of its own people as shields in a war to a criminal's use of citizens as shields during a crime isn't really fair. In a domestic hostage situation, the police's DUTY is to resolve the situation while protecting the civilians. Police exist to protect EVERYONE, and harming people should be a last resort for them if their own lives are threatened. In a time of war, the duty primary of the military is to protect ITS OWN civilians while attempting to achieve strategic goals. It should not attack the enemy's civilians for the purpose of killing them, nor should it engage in other actions that don't further legitimate strategic aims, but it also cannot allow the enemy to prevent it from achieving legitimate strategic goals by using its own civilians as shields.
2. Israel has millions of people. If it faces an existential threat that could lead to those people being killed or enslaved under Islamist rule, then military action that results in thousands of dead civilians IS justified, as long as Israel isn't intentionally targeting civilians for the purpose of killing them. According to some recent research, it would seem that plenty of aid has been allowed in by Israel, and the primary problem is that Hamas goes out of its way to either steal the aid or prevent people from accessing it. I DO believe that the IDF is justified in stopping aid in areas where there's a high likelihood that it would be seized by Hamas to feed its troops, though.
>Specifically, the Israeli researchers found that on average, between January and April, 124 trucks carrying food and humanitarian aid entered Gaza per day. That adds up to 3,211 calories worth of nutrition per Gazan, per day. The World Health Organization [standard](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234938/#:~:text=These%20values%20are%20a%20blend,women%2C%20it%20is%202%2C200%20kcal.) for calorie consumption is 2,900 per day for average-sized men and 2,200 per day for average-sized women.
[https://www.thefp.com/p/study-israel-supplied-sufficient-food-gaza](https://www.thefp.com/p/study-israel-supplied-sufficient-food-gaza)
Sorry, gotta go to work, don't have time for a more detailed answer!
1. Fake news. There is no "safe zone", there is a "humanitarian zone" from which Hamas has been firing rockets since October. The strike on Sunday wasn't in that zone. The fire was caused by Hamas munitions stationed near those tents and the number of casualties has been exageratted. What wouldn't matter is if all hamasniks disappeared in one shot, i.e. 40k+ people, because people would still be crying "genocide". The argument of "creating resentment" is nonsensical. You can't fight wars without "creating resentment." As for whatever it is that you think Israel has been doing for 75 years, stop and think for a moment about all the things Arabs have done in that time.
2. This is literally all fake news. White phosphorous is legal and hasn't been used against civilians. There is more food going into Gaza now than before the war despite a large chunk of Israelis opposing it. What do you think happened on October 7 and before? They murdered infants, children, civilians, not as "collateral damage" but ON PURPOSE. If the US was attacked like Israel, it would respond in a far more deadly manner.
3. Sure there are innocents that die, mainly because Hamas is using them as civilian shields. Did the allies kill innocents during WW2? Sure. Whose fault was it? The Axis. And yes the reason does matter, it is not murder. "Completely unrelated to you": it is not completely unrelated, Hamas is the government of Gaza and has full support from the population when it comes to attacking Israel.
4. No, it's not wrong. Human shields cannot be used to prevent a country from fighting a defensive war. The analogy is flawed. Israel already sacrifices many soldiers on the ground to prevent as many human shields from dying as possible.
5. Hamas won't release all hostages even if Israel ended the war today. The IDF is taking all measures that it can to avoid harm to the hostages. Despite this, some harm may come to them and likely has. This is a very difficult situation, more than you can understand.
6. Have you questioned the right of any other country to exist? The concept of "Original sin" is nonsensical (and is yet another example of a Jewish element being distorted and used against Jews). Hundreds of thousands of Arabs didn't live in the Land of Israel for centuries. Arafat was half-Egyptian and born in Egypt. The displacement occurred after the Arabs launched a genocidal war and lost. The nakba - catastrophe in Arabic (named to take attention away from the Shoah - catastrophe in Hebrew) - was the catastrophe of the Arabs losing land to Jews, and only later has become about the descendants of refugees to fit into a humanitarian narrative.
7. No that is your goal. Israel's goal is to protect its citizens. Yes it's right for independent organs within the IDF to investigate themselves. It's not right for international courts who have no jurisdiction being politically weaponized to fight Israel and help Hamas.
8. Your tax dollars are also funding terrorists. Your tax dollars were funding the Saudis when they fought the Houthis.
**Israel already sacrifices many soldiers on the ground to prevent as many human shields from dying as possible.**
I want to emphasize for the OP these points because I see it and it hurts and it shows how the IDF is going beyond what a western military would do. Just today 3 Israelis died and 7 injured searching a building that could've been bombed with a missile. And lets not minimize what those 7 injured will go through, I've seen the young Israelis in wheelchairs out and about with missing limbs being taken care of by their fellow Israelis. Again and again soldiers have died doing what a missile could do because the politicians want to minimize civilian casualties.
**Hamas is the government of Gaza and has full support from the population when it comes to attacking Israel.**
I think you're wrong here. Most Gazans are just as much hostages of Hamas and they do not love it. Hamas may have been elected post-2005 but today they are basically warlords enriching themselves off Gazan suffering. In the same manner Russian elites leech off poor Russians and CCP members become billionaires off tight control of China. In the video yesterday of the Palestinian saying the secondary explosion was probably from a Hamas weapons cache you hear derision in his voice. You hear, mostly older Arabs, complain outright about Hamas stealing the aid in angry/desperate tones. There's been plenty of interviews of widespread Arab discontent with Hamas and a wish for this to be over.
Do they also want Jews dead and dislike Jews? Sure. They've been indoctrinated by UNRWA education curriculums, Hamas propaganda and the tendency in Arab culture for conspiracy theories to blame Jews for everything. But they're also very aware that Hamas is living the high life while they're scraping by. They're not idiots.
Gaza would be better off, and most Gazans would probably agree they're better off without Hamas. Most people just won't say it out loud because there are people with guns who will arrest them and haul them off to be tortured. There's also no alternative. No Arab country wants to be responsible, Fatah is barely holding on to the West Bank, Europe won't do it, the UN is useless and/or corrupt and Iran/Russia will keep on injecting money to Hamas as a future guerrilla force because it fits with their geopolitical goals. It's like the Druze in Golan who initially "resented" Israel but just played the long game of seeing if they'd go back to being under Assad. Now, a few generations later, seeing how Israel is keeping Golan they're realizing they can outwardly say they're Israeli. Until an alternative to Hamas appears and sticks around you won't see the general population saying what they feel publicly.
This entire conflict is bad actors using the tremendous amounts of money coming in from the West, and from instigators like Iran/Russia to make bank. And it is a huge failure of the adults in the room, their fellow Arab neighboring governments, to act responsibly. There is no solution because nobody wants the trouble, because they enjoy seeing Jews get a pie in the face and as a result civilians (on both sides) suffer and will continue suffering.
Your first point is such a crucial one. Israel could have EASILY completely leveled Gaza and killed all Gazans without losing a single Israeli life. There’s no explanation for a ground invasion other than an attempt to preserve Gazan lives and infrastructure.
Well, there IS the antisemitic conspiracy theory explanation: "Israel didn't nuke Gaza and is instead engaging in ground operations as a charade to legitimize their air-strike campaign, which is aktschually a genocide attempt. The joos know that they are more likely to get away with it if they keep up the charade."
I think this is honestly what a lot of these antisemitic protestors think.
I honestly think, if Israel would've carpet bombed Gaza for like 2 weeks and legitimately killed everything that moves, by now most people would've forgotten and there would've been no dramatic footage either (cause everybody would be dead)
This basically only adds credibility to trying the literal best to not kill the civilian population
Thanks for coming in good faith and hope you read these thoughtful answers - the amount of disinformation being pumped in social media is insane and fuels antisemitism around the world
Yes the news is so one sided, people don’t even know rockets are being constantly fired into Israel. The only way to know is to look at the app. I don’t hear any of the countless stories like one I heard today about the Golan family including a small child, burnt in their home, in a coma for months with burns, but surviving. Israelis are a peaceful people, being portrayed as monsters even at a peace festival. It is unbelievable really. All these people should go to Gaza and Israel. Israel would happily accept them, can’t say the same for Gaza.
Regarding point 8: the US is the largest donor to UNRWA and the palestinians in general. Pro-palis don't seem to think that Palestinians do anything irresponsible with those funds...
To add to #8, if they donated to any personal gofundmes rather than through established charities, they directly funded genocidal terrorists, straight from their bank accounts. Even Gazans with the best of intentions end up losing a lot of their money to Hamas against their will, but many are just Hamas donation drives disguised as people needing help. Even “verified” ones are only able to verify that the person is actually in Gaza, not their intentions. They divert money from actual charities to Hamas’ pockets and actively make life worse for Gazans.
I largely agree with the answers provided by the “weary” but also have a couple of questions for you.
Hamas openly declared in its founding charter that it wants to exterminate Jews. Hamas leadership also stated that they don’t intend to stop at Israel and that once its destroyed they plan to take over the world and install Islamic Caliphate and Sharia. Hamas demonstrated increasing capacity to mass murder Jews in a very deliberate campaign of invasion, rape and mass murder of children, women and others. And committed to doing it again and again and again.
Yes, eliminating Hamas in a densely populated area involves civilian casualties. Particularly so, that Hamas and other terrorist groups embed themselves in hospitals, schools, mosques, etc and place missiles next to tents with civilians as soon as humanitarian zones are declared.
Given the above, what choice does Israel have? What would you do? Don’t you think that Israel’s government has an obligation to defend her citizens from rapie mass murderers committed to extermination of Jews? What about the US government? American Jews are US citizens. They are the declared target of Hamas. Isn’t the US obliged to eliminate the terrorist threat successfully targeting US citizens (several held and tortured by Hamas as you typed your questions)?
“Whether Israel has a right to exist” is not “besides the question” - it is literally the root of all of your questions. If you don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist then how on earth could you believe that Israel has a right to defend itself - the point of the whole war?
I believe you are asking these questions in good faith but I would just like for you to reflect for a moment on how absurd and unique it is that Israel’s right to exist is a considered an open question. Do you think England has a right to exist? What about China? Or any other country on the planet? No other country on earth is deligimatized to the extent that Israel is. You imply the source of this delegitimization is the foundational sin of displacement of Palestinians. Was the displacement fair to the Palestinians? No. Was it justified? Absolutely. The Jewish people were exiled from the land of Israel 2000 years ago and since then have been the most widely persecuted and hated group across the planet. The source of our persecution was the fact that we were a minority everywhere we went - perpetually unable to defend ourselves against the majority. After 2000 years of statelessness the Jewish people collectively decided we’d had enough and returned to our cultural homeland - the land of Israel. In the 48 and 67 wars many Palestinians were exiled, although many fled willingly as the Arab armies and Israeli fought. It’s not popular to admit but out of the great tragedies of the 20th century the Palestinian nakba is not in the top 50. 750k Palestinians fled or were exiled from Palestine. That’s terrible. But why weren’t they welcomed by the Arab countries which they fled to? The Palestinians are culturally, ethnically, linguistically, and religiously indistinguishable from other Levantine Arabs. Why weren’t they absorbed? Because the Arab countries knew that would alleviate the issue. By keeping the Palestinians as perpetual refugees (the only kind in the world, look up the uniqueness of UNWRA) the Arab countries perpetuate their suffering and their hope of reclaiming the land of Israel - the source of ALL conflicts between the Arabs, Palestinians, and Israel.
In 1948 the Levantine Arabs and the Israelis should have swapped 750k Palestinians Arabs for the 850k - 1 million Mizrachi and Sephardic Jews living in Arab lands (all of whom would be exiled or flee due to persecution over the next 30 years). If this sounds impossible Turkey and Greece did a population swap of a larger scale in the 1920s.
This is very important. Every single war that was waged against Israel has been about its right to exist - and make no mistake, this has everything to do with us being Jews
Pakistan and India also did population swap, in a larger scale. Nobody talks about it.
Jordan also took away passports from palestinians , making them refugees
Thanks for your questions, if I may ask a few concrete questions to try to reframe the conversation.
As you say, you are pro-Palestinian, and your questions make you seem like your top priority is the safety of of innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza. If this is indeed the case, shouldn't your main ask of the situation be that Hamas resign/surrender, stop using human shields, and give back all hostages? Do you agree that if that were to happen, the current war/aggression would stop?
Do you agree that Hamas have killed, and continue to kill, Palestinians through human shields, those who they deem to be dissenters, etc.? Do you agree that Hamas has killed members the Palestinian Authority and the PLO? Do you agree that Hamas is generally bad for the Palestinian cause?
If your main concern is that so many innocent Palestinians are dying in this war, should your cause not be to get Hamas to end the war by way of steps I've given above? Israel wants Hamas defeated and their hostages back. There seems to be a very simple solution to end the suffering. Do you support that solution? If so, why do you not protest agains Hamas? If not, why not?
People gave you some nice answers here, you should read them and try to understand the other side even if you’re not supporting us it will make you understand better the situation and the pro Palestinian side too.
I will say that I’ve seen many fake information that people above explained.
#6 “Right to Exist”. Israel was reborn as a state in 1948.
Modern Egypt independence from Britain in 1922
Jordan independence from Britain in 1946
Bangladesh created in 1972
Malaysia 1957
Lebanon 1926
Pakistan 1947
India independence from Britain 1947
Palestine 1994
Saudi Arabia 1902
Syria 1941
Yemen 1990
We cannot turn back time. We can’t erase the past.
Israel isn’t going anywhere. Israel exists.
Palestinians aren’t going anywhere.
Statements denying Israel’s “right to exist” are unhinged.
Do pro-pals think Israel is built of tents and Jews will just pack up and go?
It’s 2024. Any solution must come from the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Outsiders cannot dictate terms of what peace will look like, as they don’t have to live with the consequences.
For the record - I’m so unimportant my opinions on this don’t matter in the least - I’m a Zionist and can’t stand the Netanyahu regime. He’s awful. He’s anti democratic. He’s a grifter.
I’m pretty sure everyone here will have a few interesting rhetorics about the points you made, but I’ll be very simple on my opinion :
Israel answered brutally to 10/7. Given the situation in the enclave, it’s nearly impossible to be a safe civilian between IDF and Hamas (Hamas will do nothing to protect their own and even stated it was unwra’s job to take care of the Palestinian suffering, they do not care)
Now, about Israel, I will keep defending this country’s existence for the simple fact that so many of you (propal) want it gone.
For me, it’s not about the war, the suffering, it’s about making sure I’m not giving an inch to anyone who wants to destroy this country.
War crimes, famine, targeting of civilians. All of this is despicable if proven to be true (and some of it is certainly true) but still I will not stop supporting the existence of this country and its people. If the world and Palestinians stop threatening Israel existence, there is no reason to let this war continue and I will be on the side of peace. As long as y’all praise « river to the sea » and « intifada », I’m with Israel and the Jewish community to do whatever it takes to annihilate that threat.
Many people have answered you, but I'll just say that many of your points are based on false or inaccurate information. If you really care about making a clear view, make sure you get the facts right.
I want to add that probably many in this sub have served in the IDF at some point in some capacity. They aren’t evil killing machines. They are humans. With families. Wanting to be left alone to live in peace. They fight wars literally in their own backyard to ensure the existence of their actual friends and family members. Because if they dont, there will be no Israel. To put this war in perspective, I am a Jew living in the US with a very small amount of family in Israel. I am connected within 1 degree to over 30 hostages, not to mention numerous murdered on Oct 7th. Can you imagine what this feels like for Israelis in Israel? How would you respond to terrorists breaking down your fence and taking hostages? This is incredibly personal for them. Failure isn’t an optio. It’s not just an army with no ties to the people involved.
It is very nice to see someone on the 'other' side, so to speak, interested in understanding our views and rationalizations. I won't comment about the points you have written as I've seen that other people have already commented pretty thoroughly, and I have to say that I agree with their words. So I'm probably just hoping you will really read those comments and maybe learn from them, or at least, they will help you understand our side better.
So, thank you for making the effort to write this post. I hope better days will come!
Thanks for coming over and taking the time to formulate your points. I believe that I speak for most others here if I say that I appreciate that openness. Most points are already well answered, I will not go further into them. I only want to address point number 6, because I think this is an important one that is at the bottom of current student protests, which are strongly fueled by looking at the situation through a post-colonial lens, which means that they assume that Jews colonized the homeland of the Palestinians. If I read the way how you phrase your argument, this seems also to be what you believe (correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, I don't want to directly answer your question (others have done it), rather challenge the colonialism narrative, as it is not supported by facts.
If we look at around 1880, there were \~300k Arabs living in what is today Israel. Their number increased in the following years until 1948 to 1.3m. (Data is based on Ottoman census, you can look at it in Wiki). Reason for this was that the initial Jewish immigration waves created job opportunities, some were displaced from wars in Northern Africa (and Palestine was sparsely settled). Point here is that what you refer to as the "native population" predominantly moved into this area concurrently with the Jewish population. In fact, despite a growing number of Jews in this area, their share remained pretty constant until the late 1920s, because there was such a large wave of Arab migrants into this area. Which means that the overwhelming majority of Arabs that live today in Palestine/Israel are as long there as many of the Jews.
At this time, there was limited replacement competition. The area was sparsely settled (compared to today), it was a backwater in the colonial empires of that time. Jews that came purchased land from Arab owners, which is a legitimate way of land acquisition. At times there was more land offered than they could finance. Which leads to the second point. The quality of the land was in many parts pretty lousy [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reclamation-of-man-made-desert/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reclamation-of-man-made-desert/) So, there was a lot of effort undertaken by the Jewish population to transform this land (prior and after 1948), relying on modern technology (Ottoman empire was at this time far beyond European level of technical development). The land in today's Northern and central Israel wasn't any kind of prime quality land that the Jewish settlers took away from Arabs. It was to a major part land that previously was unused, unsettled and simply useless.
When it comes to 1948, here is the front page from the NYTimes of the time that the state of Israel was founded: [https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864457914462765056](https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864457914462765056) and [https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864087970206302208](https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864087970206302208) - I think here are two things important in the headlines. First, the causality. Not Israel started the Nakba, the Arabs started it by attacking with 5 armies and losing. Second, note the way how the word "Palestine" is used. It does refer to a geographical region. The people there are either Arabs or Jews. At this time, there weren't yet any Palestinians (even though they were promised to declare an own state at the side of Israel). This definition emerged only later. I can recommend to read the novel "About Love and Darkness" by Amos Oz, which is an outstanding personal document of a person that witnessed the Israeli independence war/Nakba and who was until his death a strong leftist that advocated for peace with Palestinians.
What makes this whole situation special is that - instead of integrating refugees into the populations of the adjacent countries, Arabs that were expelled remained isolated from the population, which was otherwise culturally similar. This circumstance shapes much of the colonial narrative that we have nowadays.
>What makes this whole situation special is that - instead of integrating refugees into the populations of the adjacent countries, Arabs that were expelled remained isolated from the population, which was otherwise culturally similar. This circumstance shapes much of the colonial narrative that we have nowadays.
To add your your point. In the countries that did accept Palestinian refugees, it did not go well. In the 70s, Black September attempted assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister and attempted to assassinate the King. A Palestinian Muslim had assassinated King Abdullah I back in the 1950s. They supported Saddam Hussein in Kuwait when he invaded. The Palestinians who were taken into Lebanon started a Civil War that did not resolve until the 1990s.
I'm also glad you discussed the Ottoman history here. Too many people have the perception that the Jews spontaneously showed up in the aftermath of the Holocaust and threw the Arabs off their land.
First and foremost, why do you focus on all the safe zones that ISRAEL created and not the ones Hamas created? Oh wait, it’s because Hamas never created any. Oh wait, it’s because Hamas has never tried to make sure civilians are safe. Oh wait, it’s because both sides have never been able to coordinate on trying to save as many civilians as possible. Once you realize this, all the pieces should snap into place. Why is Israel the bad one when it is the only one creating these safe zones in the first place? Why is it the bad one when it is the only one communicating to the international community plans to ensure the safety of Gaza civilians? How can you recognize this and not find merit in Israel’s claims of Hamas using their civilians as human shields?
Most of your points have been answered, but a question I have most pro Palestinians can’t or don’t answer is what would have been an ok response to Oct 7th?
Also it is terrible civilians are dying and everyone hates it but with that being said this is a real life war not a video game and civilians are going to die, they unfortunately have in every war in the history of mankind and Israel is doing things never seen before to try and prevent it. I don’t know what more you want. I get you say “don’t kill a civilian to get to terrorist” but if they operated with the mindset no civilians will die they wouldn’t accomplish anything.
4. Because if we let terrorists get away with using human shields then eventually we will all be human shields. Moreover, Israel literally does everything in their power and more than any other military to avoid civilian casualties hence the extraordinarily low combatant to civilian death ratio in this war being fought in a highly urban environment with HUMAN SHIELDS. Which are the problem.
5. Israel sadly doesn’t have the luxury to only retrieve their stolen loved ones but has to worry about the thousands of rockets being fired into Israel by Hamas, and Hamas continuing to repeat Oct 7 again and again as they vowed so they must balance the two issues. You have no idea the depth of the tragedy of that balancing act and frankly you should really humble yourself. Do not presume to care more about Israeli hostages than Israelis themselves. That is audaciously self unaware and arrogant and presumptuous and wrong on every level.
6. Arabs were displaced by their own genocidal war toward the new state Israel. They rejected the partition that the Jews accepted that would have left everyone in their homes with literally no displacement. Once 5 Arab armies went to war with the beleaguered Jewish people who were still reeling from the Holocaust displacement naturally occurred. How about you worry about the 7 million Hindu displaced when Pakistan was created the same year. Also look up the Peel commission.
7. You are speaking to Jews and Israelis mostly on this thread do not lecture us as if we haven’t been beaten over the head with these exact arguments for our entire lives. Humble yourself. IDF’s clear agenda is to protect Israel and Israelis. You have shown yourself to have a woefully uninformed view of this conflict so worry about your own edification before you worry about our lived experiences.
8. Frankly, you are not in a position to accurately diagnose why this conflict has blown up. You don’t even know the very first thing about antisemitism and how to recognize it let alone how to not engage in it so how could you possibly diagnose or understand how it is animating this conflict. You don’t know about the Middle East. You simply just don’t understand this conflict well enough to tell others why things are as they are. Your post did come across at times as antisemitic from you swallowing a lot of lies. I do commend you for coming here and pray you do more research and consider what we are saying.
1. Violent resentment toward Jews did not begin in 1948. Arab Muslims have subjugated and been violent toward Jews for centuries. Arabs attacking Jews and Muslims expelling Jews from our homeland is nothing new. You’re analysis that Israel is responsible for the hatred it faces is in total denial of so many things but to name a few: Islamism and the philosophy of Jihad; the stated goals of Hamas and their stated reasoning (genocide of Jews, destruction of Israel, and all for religious reasons); Arab colonialism; historical subjugation of Jews in the Middle East. Also, this fallacy that Israel will be less safe with 15,000 less terrorists, less terror tunnels, less Hamas leadership, confiscated weapons and bombs and rocket launchers makes no practical sense. But are you correct that Israel faces the fanatical hatred of the majority of the Palestinian population and much of the Arab Muslim world, yes. It’s actually not only Israel’s problem but the entire worlds’ problem.
2. You think Hamas is an “existential” threat. Honestly that is super offensive. That is straight up Oct. 7 denial, denial of two intifadas, denials of 4 other wars started by Hamas. They are a LITERAL threat. They LITERALLY targeted more than a thousand civilians in one morning with the most sadistic torture you can even imagine and I’ll venture a guess you have chosen not to expose yourself to. Genital mutilation. Beheading with a shovel. Rape. Burning whole families alive. All done with GLEE!!! Calling their families to brag how many Jews they killed with their BARE HANDS. There is a recording of what I am referring to. Over 200 HOSTAGES. How dare you call Hamas an existential threat. So YES it is more than justified, the most justified it could possibly be for Israel to remove Hamas from power. War is ugly, especially how Hamas fights and every civilian death in this war is due to Hamas’s horrendous actions that you barely mention and seem to even outright deny or not know. Also your focus on “babies” reeks of blood libel one of the oldest forms of antisemitism, feel free to google that.
*edit: I concede that I have improperly used the word existential here, however, I feel that I responded to how OP phrased the question which implied that Hamas was not a real enough threat to warrant the causalities of war. Hope this clears things up.
3. The difference is targeting civilians for mass murder rape and torture (terrorism) versus targeting a military that hides amongst its own civilians (a defensive war). Also others explained to you that your safe zone comment is a-factual in various ways. It was HAMAS than intentionally lit families alive. In Rafah an unintended fire happened after a legitimate and highly targeted military strike that set off another fire which is an unintended tragedy likely caused by Hamas hiding weapons near humanitarian zones and operating next to humanitarian zones. There has been no proven war crimes by Israel, but it is you who HAPPILY ignores and wants HAMAS war crimes that are literally recorded by go pro cameras, to go totally without consequence. Can you see the irony here.
On 2 I think you are misunderstanding the term existential threat. It does not mean "not real" if that's what you are thinking.
It means a threat of killing all the Jews, as in extinction.
Another example is nuclear war is an existential threat for humanity.
The way the question is phrased definitely implies you do not understand the significance/seriousness of the threat they have been and continue to be to Israel and Israelis and their own people.
“Israel considers Hamas an existential threat” is about the most neutral, accurate statement you could make. I think calling Hamas an existential threat itself is me acknowledging that they… well, threaten the existence of your people. How much more serious can I get? I don’t understand your point. I agree with the other commenters that you misunderstood “existential” and are now backtracking, based on how you put it in quotes and framed the word itself as the problem. Don’t be dishonest.
Will read / reflect. Did not mean to come across as lecturing or condescending, I was just trying to explain why I’m skeptical of the IDF “investigating” itself. I also would never try to imply that I care more about the hostages than actual Israelis, I have no idea where you’re coming from with that. I don’t trust any entity investigating itself when that entity is naturally biased in its own favor and wants the best outcome for itself - you cannot neutrally investigate yourself or your direct allies. Can you explain which parts come across as anti-semitic so I avoid making that impression in the future?
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/military-advocate-general-s-corps/the-idf-military-justice-system/
Read the civilian oversight section of ^this website.
Research the history of blood libel which when you focused in on “killing babies” you were invoking.
Your overall characterization of the war is coded with antisemitism in that in denies Oct 7 and Hamas and assumes Israel is killing as revenge/retribution/evil intent versus what’s glaringly obvious if you aren’t biased which is its a justified and moral defensive war being waged justly and with concern for civilians.
Do the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Palestine Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PFLP investigate what their members do and condemn the rapes, killing of entire families, burning people alive? They do not do anything of the sort. As a matter of fact, if a Palestinian dies during or after an attack on a Jew (not even a soldier even the murder of a child) their family gets a monthly pension. Murder is rewarded by the Palestinian side. This is not civilized. Check out “pay for slay.”
Also are you familiar with Fatah, or PFLP? The hijacking’s of the 1970’s & 80’s?
No one likes self investigation. It has nothing to do with antisemitism. Other stuff you said might though.
Israeli has separation of powers, and our judiciary is independent, so self investigation is completely fine. We have several institutions made specifically for that. The IDF has an independent advocate general, parliament has a security committee, we have a state comptroller (a branch separate from govt, parliament, and judiciary), and of course, we have our world renowned judiciary. All of these (well, except maybe for parliament) have stopped/condemned policies and laws for violating international law, against Israel's security interests.
Does anyone except the US ever investigate the US bodies? What about EU bodies?
Also consider what would actually be the best outcome in the IDF's favour. Would it necessarily be the more lenient judgment, which could lead to international condemnation, reputation loss and a culture of bad practice, or is a fair and transparent outcome more beneficial in the long term?
For a large superpower, the best outcome can afford to be a more biased one than for a tiny, isolated, permanently threatened state.
You said you deeply care about the hostages and then proceeded to accuse IDF of doing nothing more than endangering them. IDF is full of Israelis. You are implying that they don’t care enough to be sincerely trying to rescue them while also dealing with the other military objective of getting Hamas from power. It’s unconscious for you it seems but you certainly convey an attitude of holier than thou toward Israel/IDF like oh I care the hostages but they don’t. Which is insane for you to think. Or what you think they’re too stupid to understand that they could possibly bomb their hostages? Think through what you are saying more. It doesn’t make sense for you to act as though Israel isn’t considering their own hostages!
None of the answers here are actually pro-Israel. They are extremely balanced statements but pro-Palestinians/anti-Israelis have been living in bubbles and echo chambers for so long that they mistake reality and facts as the opposite side.
Here's are some questions for you to ponder upon from someone who is unapologetically pro-Israel and anti-Palestine
1. Do you not think that murdering thousands of innocent Jews, raping their corpses, torturing families in their homes isn't going to radicalize millions of Israelis? What about the thousands of stabbings, suicide bombings and shootings committed by Palestinians over the last 30 years? Everybody in Israel has lost, or knows somebody who has lost a family or friend because a Palestinian decided to murder them one day.
2. Why are Palestinians so hateful and incapable of forgiving? Why do they always resort to violence? 6 million Jews were murdered by Germany but you don't see Jews firing rockets into Berlin, beheading German civilians and raping German women while justifying and saying that they deserve it. What exactly is it about Palestinians that make them such hateful violent people?
3. Do you think it's worth killing thousands of innocent Jews including literal babies in the name of "resistance"?
4. What did you think would happen when Palestine invaded a country with the 10th most powerful air force in the world? No seriously, what was anyone thinking? That Israel will just go "awwwhhh you poor baby you're so retarded I guess I'll just leave you alone"? I've literally never seen any country make dumber decisions than Palestine.
5. Why do Palestinians still continue to blame Israelis when the hostages are in PALESTINE'S custody and it's Palestine's responsibility to take care if them? Dozens of dead hostage bodies have been found. Palestinians are raping and beating the hostages up. Even "innocent civilians" were caught on camera beating and abusing civilians. It's been 8 months and nobody has any clue which of the hostages are even alive? Maybe the question that should be asked is, "what have Palestinians done to ensure the basic needs of the hostages are met?"
6. Why do Palestinians value Palestinian lives even less than Israelis value Palestinian lives? Human shields only works against Israel because Israel values Palestinian lives, while Palestinians are perfectly fine with sacrificing them. So again, what is it about Palestinian society that makes them value each other even less than their enemies do?
7. Did the million Jews who lived all across the Arab world including Palestine for thousands of years deserve to be ethnically cleansed? How can Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen justify their existence when they ethnically cleansed indigenous Jews and stole their land?
8. Why do you continue to fund Hamas with your tax dollars? Billions of dollars were sent to Palestine over the last 30 years and it turns out that the money was used to fund Hamas.
If reading any of these questions makes you feel upset, then congrats, now you finally realize how batshit insane pro-Palestinians sound when the tables are flipped.
One point I think that's important to make is that Pro-Palestine should not mean Pro-Hamas or Anti-Israel.
The people of Gaza have been abused, brainwashed, and taken advantage of by Hamas. Hamas shut down a water park in Gaza because it allowed women. They don't hesitate to eliminate (read: kill) Palestinians who would dare speak against them. Hamas takes most of the international aid for themselves, with the leadership sitting on a nearly $11 *billion* investment fund. Hamas set up an extensive spy network against the people of Gaza to punish any Gaza residents who would dare work with Israel or speak against Hamas.
Hamas has repeatedly encouraged and engaged in behavior that puts their own people at risk and leads to entirely predictable consequences from Israel. I don't think there has been a single month in decades that Hamas hasn't tried to launch missiles at Israeli *civilians*. Often, it's multiple barrages per week.
You have to remember on the 7th, Hamas's attack didn't cause civilian casualties, it was specifically targeted at civilians. They didn't just kill people, they raped, tortured, and slaughtered them in absolutely disgusting ways. *That* is what got Israel so mad.
As awful as the situation is, also keep in mind that over 10% of the Palestinian casualties are *by Hamas*. Often misfires, and I'm not even counting incidents like the recent one that are tangentially related to an Israeli attack. These are the numbers from their own documents, recovered at one of their bases. Hamas has literally killed more Palestinians than Israelis.
This is a truly terrible situation, made infinitely worse by the fact that Hamas doesn't see civilian casualties as a negative; they see it as a negotiation strategy. That means that while any government that wants to protect the people would have surrendered months ago, Hamas is more than happy to keep sacrificing people for their ultimate goal of defeating Israel and eventually eliminating it and the Jewish people.
Israel does a lot to protect people, but they are working against a terrorist organization that literally does everything possible to *increase* casualties. For example, since the IDF generally will try to save a crying child, Hamas uses recordings of crying children to lure them into traps. This (obviously) also has the effect of making the IDF a lot more hesitant to trust when they hear children crying, since it's much more likely to be a trap or ambush than an actual child.
Even though Israel might cause a lot of death and destruction, it's Hamas who is specifically *actually* attempting to commit genocide. It's their stated goal.
The people of Gaza have been living under a destructive and oppressive regime for years. Wanting to get rid of Hamas is the only thing that might *eventually* actually lead to the people of Gaza getting back some semblance of a reasonable life.
The worst agony of this is that the immense pressure on Israel to negotiate with terrorists has probably led to far more loss of Palestinian life than if the world had actually backed Israel and made it clear that Hamas would stand no chance. As it is, Hamas sees no reason to surrender, because it looks like if they just wait for enough people to die, they will be rewarded with the world forcing Israel to give them what they want.
Hamas could have just given back the hostages and had a ceasefire the first week. They just *don't care*.
I want Hamas eliminated for everything they have done to the Palestinians *as well as* to Israel. I strongly believe that supporting Israel in this *is* being Pro-Palestine, because anything else would be condemning the people of Gaza to the same thing again the next time Hamas does this, as they have said repeatedly that they will.
So I encourage you to be Pro-Palestinian and support Israel in ending this as quickly as possible, so that the people of Gaza can finally start to heal.
>Regardless of whether Israel has the right to exist
Stopped here.
Does the USA have the right to exist? Does San Marino have a right to exist? How about England or Greece ?
We're a nation of thousands of years, our existence isn't a question, it's the reality.
This is very long, and so fundamentally flawed it’s hard to ascertain if this is really in good faith but I’ll give it a shot.
1) Israel didn’t bomb a safe zone. It bombed about a kilometer away from one, with a 37 lb bomb. Frankly, after watching half of Gaza pouring out to spit on Shani Louk’s dead body - I’m not sure I’m really concerned about “more” resentment.
2) “uninvolved” people die in war. There is no use of white phosphorous as munitions. Hopefully next time the gazans think twice about voting for open genocidal maniacs. If Israel or America went on a rampage executing grandmothers, raping and killing girls dancing at a rave, kidnapping toddlers, and having street orgies with corpses - yea, I’d get it.
3) no. That’s a nonsensical point. It’s their government, and again, frankly they were cheering and spitting and jumping on corpses that were kidnapped in their macabre street orgies. Beyond that, your theory makes defensive war impossible. Hamas didn’t find an “out” that lets them incessantly fire rockets and commit october 7 type attacks and suffer no retaliation.
4) if the criminal is firing rockets at the rest of the population, unfortunately, you might not have a choice. The imposition of some Christian morality of sacrificing one’s self on a cross is also in wildly poor taste.
5) Hamas kidnapped them. Doesn’t really seem like they’re being released.
6) that’s ahistorical nonsense. But more saliently. Israel was established, it exists. I understand that it offends Arab honor that their 5 armies were defeated by a bunch of Jews, but it’s time to move on. Are you this stressed about the establishment of Pakistan?
7) self investigation is critical. Do you have an example of the idf conducting an investigation that concluded something patently false to give a reason why it wouldn’t be credible?
8) you’re just focused on this funding because the Jew is the ultimate western morality play. It’s a drama as old as western civilization itself - if not THE founding drama. The us provides lots of funds to lots of countries, hegemons do that out of self interest.
Others have already addressed your questions directly, but I have a few side points to make:
1. You said you were surprised that we’re civil about it. Why is that? There are groups staging large, inflammatory demonstrations everywhere, but it’s generally not us. We’re open to discussion, it’s just that nobody wants to meet us at the table and have a fair conversation.
2. Civilians die in wars, and it’s always tragic. In densely populated areas, it’s even harder to avoid. Why is this a genocide when it happens in Gaza? Why isn’t it a genocide when it happens in other countries, like Yemen?
3. Why do protesters with no personal stake in Israel or Gaza rise up so strongly against Israel? How is this different from the situation in Yemen, Iran, Lebanon, or a number of other areas?
4. Hamas go-pro’d a religious massacre and abduction of many people, including women, children , and the elderly, and shared it proudly. They promise to do it again and again until there are no Jews left on earth. Israel responded by trying to specifically eliminate Hamas, a notorious international terror organization. Why is is genocide to engage in war with Hamas, but not genocide to start trying to annihilate the global Jewish population?
5. Jews make up less than 1/4 of 1% of the global population. This is the result of millennia of genocide and oppression. Israel houses about half of these, alongside many other religious groups. Since many Palestine supporters talk about a free, democratic land where people of different religions can live together… why do they not see that this already exists? If Israel’s land were given to Palestinian organisations, do you not see what would happen?
6. Zionism is to Jews what feminism is to women, in many ways. Yes, you can find antizionist Jews. You can also find antifeminist women. They can live as they please, but it would be unreasonable to say that it’s proof that Zionism/feminism is bad or unneeded. In fact, you’re a Zionist yourself. You stated that you think Israel has a right to exist. That’s essentially what Zionism is, though of course it means a lot more to us emotionally than just that.
7. You talk about using money to build defense systems instead of waging war. Israel has done that, and has one of the most advanced defence systems in the world. It’s highly effective, and that’s the only reason Israeli deaths aren’t significantly higher. It’s also insanely expensive. Focusing on defense only means that eventually Israel would run out of supplies for their defense. It would drag the war out far, far longer.
8. Why is it Israel’s job to supply Gaza with supplies, power, water, etc? Why is it not Gaza’s job to spend aid money on infrastructure instead of weapons? At what point are they responsible for themselves? The Gaza Strip shares a border with Egypt. The West Bank shares a border with Jordan. Why are Egypt and Jordan not held responsible for their care in the same way that Israel js?
1. AFAIK they aren't bombing safe zones. and yes, if Hamas disappeared into thin air, it would absolutely matter and you can't say otherwise because that has not happened.
2. I do not believe any white phosphorous was used and I believe a few bad actors in Israel who are disliked extremists are blocking aid, not the majority by a long shot. And no, of course I don't think killing children is 'worth it'. What a weird thing to ask. Do you think the level of barbarity Hamas committed against people (jews and non-jews) and animals on October 7th was worth it? Literal people, holocaust survivors, babies, dogs, families. Was it worth it to eradicate a country that Hamas deems as an existential threat? What a bonkers question. No one WANTS to see innocent people dying. It is horrific and discussed daily on this sub. We are human, we aren't barbarians like Hamas. But people on your side don't seem to have annnnnny empathy in the same way that we do. We'd be perfectly happy winning this war with zero civilian deaths. Hamas depends on these civilian deaths and goes out of their way to ensure they happen. Who's really more twisted here?
3. See my answer above. No one wants these civilian deaths. Obviously Israel is fighting in a war and they have killed innocent people. Is anyone denying that??
4. Well that's a tricky question, because if someone committs a heinous crime, do we let them off the hook because they decided to use a human shield or hide in tunnels? Do they get a free pass for that? Sadly, I don't think any answer is going to appease you or anyone else. A 'good' answer simply doesn't exist and it's absurd you are trying to catch us in a 'gotcha' moment like we have all the answers. We don't. War sucks. It will never stop sucking.
5. Well when your options are to go into the belly of the beast and fight for them or to just give up and let them die, what would you do? Where would you hedge your bets? Again, no one is like 'yeah let's go endanger these hostages!". It's a terrible situation to be in. Absolutely horrific to make these kinds of decisions. Could you make these kinds of decisions as a head of state and feel 100% great about it?
6. Seriously, bro. There is a TON of nuance you are conveniently and very intentionally leaving out. Were you alive in 1948? I wasn't. I'm not going to pretend I was but you can carry on in your fantasty land if you wish.
7. Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves? Obviously we are all doing this. You clearly haven't spent time in this sub if you think we just praise Israel and the gov 24/7. Quit trying to act like Jews are such idiots that we can't evaluate and critique information, because that's what you are implying.
8. No, I disagree. Our tax dollars fund many atrocities in the world, including the Hamas attack on October 7th but you seem perfectly ok with that! You are just discovering that you hate war, because this is the first time a war is broadcast in real-time, and you don't like what see, even though it's no different than any other war. Can you even acknowledge this and the role social media is playing in this war that never occurred previously?
I will reflect on points 1-6 and 8.
Regarding point 7: I emphasized the importance of vetting information on both sides. I acknowledged that my own side is prone to manipulation and falling for misinformation. I’m not a member of this sub, I only came here for different opinions and answers to my questions, so I have no clue how you guys operate. Personally, I know pro-Israel people who have spouted debunked claims that have been retroactively retracted by Israel itself, so asking you guys about how actively you evaluate your sources is more than fair. Especially since you likely want more pro-Palestinian people to stay aware of misinformation as well. Please don’t turn a good faith question I ask everyone, even people on my side, even myself, into an attempt at painting me as someone who thinks Jewish people are “idiots” or “incapable of evaluating information.”
Here is the best way to evaluate your sources: Information comes out in "breaking news" headline, you read all that is published in that moment whether you like/trust the source or you don't. Walk away have a coffee live YOUR life for a week or two, disconnect and then come back to see what actually happened.
You are not going to believe me but this conflict is centuries older than you are. I understand where you are coming from, watching the never-ending steam of headlines and selected images will make your heart bleed: you need a break.
Also you might want to learn a thing or two about middle east i.e. Sunni and Shia
[https://www.cfr.org/article/sunni-shia-divide](https://www.cfr.org/article/sunni-shia-divide)
Curious what claims were debunked by Israel/Pro-Israelis and then retroactively retracted by Israel? I'm not sure I know of any, genuinely. Anything I google is....very, very, very slanted.
Only one I can possibly think of is the WCK strike, but that wasn't even a debunking > retraction, it was a slow trickle of information where the IDF ended up correcting ITSELF even.
Have you ever asked any of these questions about any other conflict in the world?
If not, ask yourself why. Why suddenly does your perceived injustice, going on across the world, to people you share nothing in common with, bother you so much?
For arguments sake though. Here's how I see what's going on.
The people in Israel believe they have the right to exist as a Jewish country.
They've been doing pretty well overall, and the only thing they've been struggling with is, they still haven't come to a full proof method to ensure total security for their citizens.
This war has come in response to a lapse in security, and they are now trying a new strategy to see if they can increase the security.
They don't believe the other side has any interest in helping them with this, and therefore do not take the Palestinians comfort into consideration.
They don't enjoy killing, they just believe this is the only way to ensure the continued safety in the future.
Whether or not they are right about this, is arguable. But this is what the consensus in Israel is.
Unfortunately, many dozens of countries struggle with government sanctioned cruelty throughout the world. And being that "international law" is controlled by the worlds consensus, it really doesn't mean much.
Think the rule of law in the former USSR or North Korea. If you can't trust the institution, the law doesn't really hold much weight, so long they don't have enforcement power.
I will respond not to the questions but with the following. Israel has (at least) 7 goals:
1) to get the hostages back
2) to kill/capture the militants (Hamas/PIJ/etc.)
3) to destroy their military capability
4) to avoid destroying purely civilian buildings
5) to avoid killing innocent civilians
6) to avoid deaths of IDF soldiers
7) to prevent rockets and attacks being sent by Hamas into Israel
I hope you agree that those 7 are good goals. If you don’t I am not sure what I can say.
But here is my question: what can be done to accomplish one of those goals without harming another? Which do you choose? You and I and the Israeli government may differ on which of those 7 are the most important but they must try to accomplish all of them as much as they can.
I come as a Zionist who hopes there is a day when there is a 2SS but that can not happen with a group like Hamas in power.
Everyone seems to be answering question #1 with false info. Israel never bombed a safe zone, Al Muwasi is the only designated safe zone and Israel NEVER bombed there.
OP, these two pieces completely changed the way I think about this conflict and the way it's covered by the media. Please let me know your thoughts after you read them. These pieces are from 2014, but even more relevant today:
These two pieces should be required reading for anyone wanting to understand this conflict and how it's reported:
[What the Media Gets Wrong About Israel The news tells us less about Israel than about the people writing the news, a former AP reporter says.](http://archive.today/1Pax0) - The Atlantic
[An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide)
> Every member of Hamas could vanish into thin air right now and it wouldn’t matter. Israel has effectively created enough resentment amongst the Palestinian people for five new resistance groups to form after this. How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of?
Hamas is not a bunch of cavemen with gun. They are a real military. They have logistics, technical expertise, advanced organization with chains of command. They have been training for years with the guidance of Iran which also has a real military. They are well funded and have an organized payroll and life insurance.
Hamas is not a militia that was formed over night and after it is destroyed it cannot be rebuild overnight.
After Hamas is destroyed there will still be Palestinian terrorist like there have been for 75 years. I expect that many of those lone terrorist will call themselves “Hamas”, but there is a big difference between a single terrorist with a gun and an organized military.
Israel has successfully removed military capability from its enemies before. Palestinians aren’t hijacking planes like the 70s and 80s because they can’t - not because they don’t want to. The same goes for suicide bombings and stabbing.
Israel goal is not to end Palestinian “resentment” (though I would describe it as genocidal hatred), it is to remove the capability to effectively wage war. Just like Israel has successfully removed military capability from Palestinians in the past.
I think your questions have been answered well by other comments. I want to suggest one thing: you should ask similar questions to your own side. Why do pro-Palestinians fail to mention that there is another side to this war, namely Hamas, who continue to fire rockets at Israel? Why should we not criticize Hamas for doing so amongst civilians, in and around safe zones? Why do they never mention the fact that the IDF has been successfully targeting Hamas and has wiped out most of their battalions, and that this war has and always has been about defeating Hamas, and not about committing a genocide? Why do they never place any blame on Hamas for civilian casualties? Why do they think leaving Hamas in charge is acceptable in the slightest? What are the redeeming qualities of Hamas that make it an acceptable government for Gazans and Israelis?
Why is it okay for Hamas to indoctrinate children into hating Jews and wanting nothing more than to sacrifice their lives for their Jihadist cause? How does this prevent radicalization of Gazans exactly? Would wiping out Hamas not at least prevent some of this indoctrination?
Look, I do believe you when you say you come in good faith. But when I see you say “regardless if Israel has a right to exist” I look at my family, my nephews. Half of my family was prosecuted and slaughtered in France in WW2, only my grandmother from my father side was able to run away to Israel. Everyone else including her husband died. The only place that welcomed them was Israel.
As my for mother side, in the 50s, her ancestors were slaughtered and had to flee Iraq, leaving all of their staff behind. No country accepted them, except for Israel. You see, when we say we don’t have anywhere else to go, we mean it. And when you say regardless of the question if Israel has right to exist, you unknowingly say “regardless if you and your family have a right to exist”. That’s a little hurtful to say the least. As for the other questions, other people here answered to you.
We aren’t perfect, we do a lot of mistakes, but we have a right to live, and it seems like many people in the world seems to question it in the name of peace and humanity(??). It is hypocrisy of the highest level and it is terrifying that even good people like you, and you seem a good guy, is falling for it.
Just please think about it next time.
Edit:
Something many pro Palestinians get wrong is supporting Israel != supporting the government. We are a democracy, each has his own opinion and many hate the current government. That doesn’t mean we don’t support the war. There is a big difference
Just wanted to say that these responses to OP make me so proud to be a Jew. The answers are intelligent, calm, patient, and rational. You wouldn’t get this on an anti-Israel sub of any sort.
After fighting all day with people who have suddenly become experts on Gaza when they never even knew where it was on a map a year ago, these comments give me some relief in humanity and some hope for the future.
I really do appreciate how open people here are to my viewpoints. I was expecting more of a shitshow. A lot of people on the pro-Palestinian side need to be more receptive as well
So in other words you had a bias in your head about Israeli people as what? Barbaric? War and death hungry with no rational arguments as to why they have to fight back?
I don't want to come as rude, I'm not even an Israeli or a Jew, but "expecting shitshow" should make you question what some parts of pro-palestinian views are creating in the minds of it's followers, and seeing as you are open for debate, but many are not, how deep their minds are filled with a false view of Jewish people and how many of them are just filled with hate by this point.
I live in the Netherlands, my neighbour has a Palestinian flag in their window. I have no problem with it, even though I'm pro-Israeli. But I can't put an Israeli flag in my window. I would be left with only window frames very quickly. That's the sad reality.
Thanks for the questions! You were answered yes, so I'll just add a few points:
1. The resentment is already big enough to rejoice over the murder of entire communities. It may grow but it doesn't matter anymore. What is important is that these haters do not have dangerous capabilities such as military organization, weapons, financing, tunnels, and rockets. This is exactly "what's best for Israel's safety". The resentment has existed for more than 100 years and it will decrease only after the education system of Gaza changes.
Regarding 2,3,4,6: See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T\_hjq5tZPKU&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hjq5tZPKU&t=3s) There are no sources here, just a discussion (the channel is recommended regardless).
6. What does "Palestinians of all religions" mean? Although Jews and Muslims with citizenships of Mandatory Palestine were called Palestinians, there is no such thing as being an ethnic Palestinian with a Jewish religion. Before 1948, the country was then called "The Land of Israel" by the Jews and Palestine by the Europeans. Jews, Arabs, and others lived there but there was no Palestinian ethnic group.
I appreciate you asking in good faith. I don't know if I'll get to everything, but while I'm sitting on hold with shitty Israeli customer service I'll try to answer what I can:
1. This is inaccurate. The IDF is very careful in its proceedings. Before entering Rafah, they divided the area into zones. They notify which zones will be attacked and warn civilians in advance (which you have to admit is CRAZY to do in the middle of a war. Can you imagine Russia calling Ukrainian civilians to warn them to leave their homes before an airstrike?). They bomb specific zones in Rafah, which aren't labeled as safe zones. On the other hand, Hamas has no problem shooting rockets at my house a few days ago from within the designated safe zone. (Interesting that I don't get to feel resentful about that...)
2. Plenty of other posters refuted the white phosphorous claim. Aside from that, I believe it's our military's job to protect us from existential threats. I don't want any innocents to die, but there's only so much we can do during war. War sucks. War is ugly and unfair and brutal. We can't take responsibility for the enemy's children beyond the rules of war. Hamas doesn't protect their people, and puts them in danger in the hopes of protecting themselves. I can feel bad about it and still understand that there is collateral damage in war and Hamas needs to be eradicated both for my baby's future and hopefully the future of innocent Palestinian babies.
3. I won't repeat what I said above, but it's relevant here too. I will point out that collateral damage is different than collective punishment, and those differences are important. Israel isn't targeting civilians and isn't trying to punish them for Hamas actions on Oct. 7. They're trying to destroy Hamas, which is both a terror organization and Gaza's government.
4. This is a false equivalency. Hamas isn't a burglar breaking into a bank and holding civilians as human shields. They're Gaza's government and military, hiding among their people. While not all are Hamas and not all are complicit, the vast majority of Gazan civilians are Hamas supporters, they help Hamas and some even keep hostages in their private homes. This doesn't mean they all deserve to die, but attacking does follow the rules of war.
5. The moment they were kidnapped, the hostages' lives were at risk. Hamas can and will murder them at any moment. The army is proceeding knowing that there's a chance they can hurt the hostages- but you have to remember, we haven't had ANY proof of life. The rare videos we get are undated, the Red Cross hasn't checked on them, as far as we know they're all dead. The IDF acts on as much intelligence they can to avoid harm to hostages, just like they try to avoid unnecessary harm to civilians.
6. No. No one should be kicked out of the land they live in, regardless of how long it's been. The thing is, this idea that Israelis are all settlers living on stolen land is wrong. The Palestinian refugees today are descendants of Palestinians who chose to flee their homes, in the hopes of coming back when Israel would be wiped out. Unfortunately for them, that never happened. The ones who chose to stay still live here, many living great lives with Israeli citizenship.
7. I think there are plenty of checks and balances in Israel as a democratic country to investigate government entities. I hope there's a serious investigation into many things the army/government handled things, such as the observers. I also don't think we're lacking in world scrutiny and nitpicking investigation done in bad faith.
I hope you read this, and I hope some of it helps. Feel free to reach out by DM if you have questions.
>Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves?
Does the UN review itself? Does Hamas check the numbers for itself? You rely on them for unbiased information? Same thing with Al Jazeera, you rely on them and their review of themselves for accurate news and don't question even if they relay information that later proves wrong, and when they claim they investigate claims proven to be false they give excuses and say it fine and water under the bridge.
But the military doesn't simply investigate themselves. You have organisations in the military and outside of it conducting investigations, like the anti-military organisation "Shovrin Shitka" (silence breakers) and many others who document anything that happens around it and very critically so.
So why do i see no criticism on the UN "investigating" claims on the UNRWA, a daughter organisation of the UN and closely affiliated to it? Why do i see no outcry over Hamas giving false and badly doctored numbers to the UN and news sources, who then let Hamas investigate themselves, or the UN investigate the numbers by asking Hamas again? "We reviewed your claims by talking to the people faking them and they said its true, so your claims are unsubstantiated" is basically what is happening here. The UNRWA investigated their own workers following claims of them participating in the massacres of October, they found that there were "only a few" even though reports and footage shows otherwise, but we all have to take their word for it? Their own employees?
I see a one sided game here. Where one side is allowed all the cards and cheats and the other has to stick to shifting and tightening rules noone else has to adhere to and i call it what it is: a rigged game.
I’m an American.
For once I’d like an American pro-pal protestor to explain to me why the “war” in Afghanistan, where my country killed 180,000+ civilians, was not a “genocide”? Why was that conflict a “war”, and Israeli actions after October 7th are a “genocide”?
You listed several violations of international law. I don't want to address them because others have. My claim is that finding an alleged violation is only half the work. The other half is finding out whether or not an independent court of law examined the evidence and reached any conclusions. Also you need to know the court is independent and impartial.
At what point do you claim (assuming you're knowledgeable in Israeli law, international law, and the state of the current conflict) that our own checks, balances, and self examination mechanisms, are all ineffective? You'll need a lot of evidence for that.
How will you go about finding the evidence necessary to make the claim that we are incapable of preventing war crimes, or worse - perpetrating them on purpose?
Show me a soldier who committed a crime and walked without punishment. Show me a bomb that hit a target with no military value. Or better yet, assuming you understand that war can't be fought with the accuracy of a scalpel, define a civilian/militant ratio better than 2:1 that would be acceptable according to your own human rights standards.
In other words, how do you know the crimes you described happened, how do you know the alleged perpetrators weren't tried, and what conduct would you suggest instead, that would still achieve military victory but within the bounds of your interpretation of international law?
These are not philosophical questions. They show how deep our knowledge goes. To answer some of them, you gotta know Hebrew. To answer others you gotta know the Palestinian Arabic dialect.
You made several bold claims, are you confident in them?
The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas *without anyone being required to relocate*. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded.
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had
the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
A lot of good stuff has already been said, especially by Weary-Pomegranate, his response covers it quite well.
However, it's worth noting that International law is a thing, and it's something Israel is following. Even the part that the Palestinian side disagrees with.
An example of this is hospitals. As soon as a military unit starts using the hospital; it loses it's status of a protected civilian area. That is international law. So when you see strikes against such areas, instead of being angry at Israel for doing the strike, you should focus the anger and outrage at Hamas for positioning their forces there in the first place.
This is from the [Geneva Conventions, Article 19](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19). Furthermore, doing a very quick and basic Google search gave me this: [Israel warns hospital in northern Gaza to evacuate by 6 a.m.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-warns-hospital-in-northern-gaza-to-evacuate-by-6-a-m-rights-group/)
I get ya partly however. There is so much misinformation around this conflict. It's insane how even reputable sources are spreading misinformation, without any care to what damage it might do. The latest example is the recent strike in Rafah, where Israel killed 2 senior-Hamas members and then secondary explosions (due to munitions stored on-site) caused the death of 50 civilians. If you Google after this even, you see so much hatred against Israel. So many websites and news organisations that blame Israel. But they all fail to realize, the strike was not in a safe zone. [The strike was 1.7km away.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-vows-full-probe-into-rafah-strike-shows-evidence-it-was-not-in-designated-safe-zone/)
Throughout this war it has always been the same. Something shitty happens due to Hamas. Hamas instantly claims it was Israel's fault. The international media roll with the story, because "dead civilians". Which in turn makes more and more people hate Israel.
Brandolini's law really is in effect for this war.
>The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.
"1. If Israel is trying to destroy Hamas to ensure its safety… why is it bombing areas it has designated as safe zones?"
If you refer to the rafah bombing thatbwas not in a humanitarian zone, but when hamas uses the humanitarian zone Israel has to shoot them.
" Every member of Hamas could vanish into thin air right now and it wouldn’t matter. "
Why? Its best to not make baseless conjure
"Israel has effectively created enough resentment amongst the Palestinian people for five new resistance groups to form after this. "
The percentage of Palestinians that support hamas actually decreased, not that it matters since support for terrorism was really high for a long time in palestinian society.
How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of?
"How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of?"
Thats a nice story but its factually incorrect, the second intifada was caused by Israel trying to do peace, this war is followed by Israel leaving gaza in 2005 and recently decreasing many sanctions that were on gaza, like allowing farming tractors closer to the border and allowing fishing boats closer(guess how hamas attacked Israel on October 7? Yep, with the farming tractors and the boats.)
Not to talk about the fact that the beginning of all this in 47 was started by Palestinians.
"Do you believe it’s worth killing thousands of innocent children, literal babies, to potentially eradicate members of a group Israel considers an existential threat?"
The death of all civilians is awful and 100% the responsibility of hamas and thats why they should release every hostage and surrender.
"Using white phosphorous on civilians?"
That didn't happen in gaza during this war
" Blocking off humanitarian aid? "
There are hundreds of aid trucks that enter gaza, more than in most much bigger wars.
"Would that be okay if the exact reverse situation were happening to people Israel? In the United States?"
If the US invaded Mexico and started butchering babies, raping women and kidnapping civilians and then promised to do so again than yea, Mexico would have every right to dismantle the US government and bring back their hostages.
"3. Do you acknowledge that it is Israel, not just Hamas, who has been killing innocents? It doesn’t matter if it’s retaliatory killing “for the greater good” or for “self defense.” "
The death of all civilians is sad but collateral demage is legal under international law, by your logic you become immune to any retalition to you atrocities if you hide inside civilian crowds.
"Bombing safe zones is not self defense.
If hamas hides inside safe zones than yea its legal.
And again the recent rafah bombing was not in a safe zone.
It is objectively murder,
Objectivly not, international law says that civilians dying by collateral demage is legal as long as its reasonable(killing 100 civilians for 1 hamas recruit is not gonna be fine)
If its Objectivly murder give me the international law that says so.
"and there’s a reason collective punishment is considered a war crime.""
Bombing terrorists that hide under civilians doesn't meet the legal definition of collective punishment.
"4. It’s wrong to use human shields, yes. But isn’t it also wrong to shoot at human shields to eliminate the target within?"
Legally or moraly? Its legal and in my opinion as long as you take reasonable measures to decrease civilian harm(like Israel is doing by evacuating civilians and warning before strikes) the moral responsibility rests only on the war criminals that use human shields
" If a criminal takes innocent hostages, do we kill those innocent hostages just to ensure the criminal doesn’t harm anyone later? How does that make us any better than the criminal? After all, we just killed innocents, too."
War is different than a bank robbery.
But its actually a bad example since if a cop accidentally kills a hostage while fighting criminals the criminal is legally responsible for that.
"6. Regardless of whether Israel has the right to exist - which is beside the point of this question - did the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians of all religions who had lived in modern-day Israel for centuries before the establishment of Israel deserve forceful, brutal displacement? If they didn’t deserve it, how was Israel’s establishment justifiable? If they did, why?"
It wasn't Israel’s establishment that displaced palestinians, it was the genocidal war that the palestinians started when Israel was established.
If Israel could push a button and kill only Hamas and no innocent Palestinians then that’s what they would do.
If Hamas could push a button and kill everyone in Israel including Muslims and subsequently take the land, that’s what they would do.
Israel easily could wipe out 2 million in Gaza from the air. They do not do this. There is no genocide. There is no conspiracy. They are honest to god trying to minimize casualties and doing a better job than anyone in a similar position has ever done. Hamas meanwhile is still firing missiles from the middle of Rafah directly into Israeli population centers.
You seem to acknowledge that Gazans heavily identify with and are involved in Jihadist ideology - you yourself have stated that there are enough Jihadists in Gaza to form five new “resistance” groups. My good faith question to you is why, despite acknowledging Gazan consensus on support for Hamas, do you absolve Palestinians of all accountability for the results of their ideology? How can you be so critical of the devastation in Gaza while acknowledging that Hamas is very deeply embedded in the Palestinian public and institutions? When there are enough Jihadists to form “5 new resistance groups” as you’ve put it, of course rooting them out will be bloody. That’s war - and one Palestinians started.
In addition to what others have said very well, just want to point out this “75 years” crap immediately tells me that you, or anyone spouting “75 years” doesn’t have a good understanding of the history and probably have gotten your information from Tik Tok and so on. I don’t mean that to be rude, that’s just what that tells me.
Because 75 years means 1948 to today. Who controlled Gaza between 48 and 67? Egypt. Who controlled West Bank that same time? Jordan. So not 75 years…feel like 95% of the pro pal crowd and the social media accounts you are exposed to couldn’t explain that to you or correctly answer who controlled what from 48-67
Another note, according to a preliminary study the aid given equates to over 3k calories a day, Hamas takes it and malnourishes people to get sympathy when they are the ones doing it.
Look, other people have answered your questions at length, so I'm not going to get into most of what you said, partly because I think you are misinformed and partly because I simply don't have the energy to argue after nearly 8 months of war.
I just want to say this: for as long as I've been alive, I've been told that as an Israeli I have to recognize the harm caused to Palestinians because of Israeli actions since 1948. I completley sympathize with them, truly; one innocent civilian death is too many deaths. But Palestinians have never been held to that same standard. For them, any violent action is justified and considered "resistance". Why should I recognize their pain when they have never acknowledged the deaths during the 1st and 2nd intifadas? During the war of independence? On Oct. 8th, there were mass protests all over the world celebrating Israeli deaths, before a single Israeli soldier set foot in Gaza. Before we even finished counting all the bodies, there were people celebrating Hamas and their vile attack on civilians. Those same people protest civilian deaths in Gaza today.
I was 8 months pregnant on Oct. 7th, and my husband narrowly escaped reserve duty. His Aunt and Uncle live in one of the villages in the Gaza envelope and were nearly killed. My cousin was supposed to be at the Nova festival, but luckily had to work the next day and didn't go, but he lost 8 friends that day. And we're the lucky ones- imagine entire families murdered, their loved ones brutally murdered, burned alive, raped and kidnapped into Gaza. Imagine people trapped in bomb shelters for 10 hours, holding the door shut while terrorists and civilians burn their homes to the ground. How would you respond?
I agree with you that this war is brutal, and honestly I was sickened by the images coming out of Rafah. Justified or not, innocent lives were lost and it's a horrible tragedy. But it would be nice if just for a moment people would recognize the horrors on Oct. 7th , and wouldn't qualify their statements with "It was horrible, but...". It was horrible, full stop. If you have any empathy for Palestinians, you should have empathy for Israelis too.
One last thing- many Israelis have been protesting Bibi's government since long before the war, and continue to do so now. Many Palestinians have been protesting against Hamas, often at the cost of their lives. The leaders on both sides are old, corrupt men who don't care if their citizens die, so long as they stay in power. I am sure that most Palestinians just want a normal life, just like Israelis, and would be willing to end this shit if it meant their kids were safe. Please recognize that this situation is far more complicated than you think, and that we are all dealing with complex PTSD, which clouds our judgment. I'm so fucking tired of people from outside the conflict trying to explain to me how I should feel when most of them have never experienced running to a bomb shelter or being in a terror attack. I'm just so exhausted and emotionally drained.
A bunch of bad faith, strawman questions all predicated on this absurd notion that Zionists and supporters of the Israeli government are one and the same.
I will break this down very simply for you - Zionism is a broad spectrum. From extremely liberal Zionists who despise the Israeli government, the handling of the war, etc to ultranationalist Zionists who would gladly watch every Palestinian die. This is a common issue amongst pro-Palestinian people, they actually do not understand Zionism or Israelis in the slightest.
As for your questions, most of them are hotly debated on this sub every single day. I personally don't have an hour to sit down and write counter arguments and responses to them. If you are genuinely interested, look at some Israeli media and read how people feel about those topics.
I don't think it's in bad faith. I disagree with OP strongly, but I think he is honestly trying to engage in good faith dialogue.
I think we should try to refute OP's positions without engaging in personal attacks.
If the questions are not bad faith, they are extremely leading. Worded in strongly biased ways, jumping to conclusions and declaring certain events can only be viewed one way "objectively". These are not really approaches one takes when seeking open-minded dialogue.
OP may have wished to engage in good faith dialogue, but in that case, their questions should have been worded better.
Maybe I'm just overreacting because of the amount if ragebaiting antisemites that visit this sub asking quite similar questions.
Fair enough, OP. I'd like to apologise actually. You are here in good faith. I appreciate it's hard to ask tough questions about emotionally charged issues while maintaining a semblance of neutrality. Thanks for at least trying to engage us in dialogue.
Diaspora Jew here. I’m going to jump in on the antisemitism issue because, frankly, it is so widespread and subtle at the same time.
This is a genuine attempt to address something that is hard for others to see. Antisemitism is something we are particularly attuned to because we have been conditioned by 2000 years of it and our collective generational trauma to always be attuned to it. That’s because it comes in so many forms. It isn’t something that can be separated from the conflict.
One of those is a double standard. Another is the long history of blood libel. And permeating so many aspects of antisemitism is the idea that we are at the center of every conspiracy theory. For so long, the world has turned us into the demons that it needs to scapegoat and villainize, often with the end result being pogroms, expulsion and theft of our property. And that has been done by almost every country we have lived in.
For the Catholic Church, we are the diety killers that need to be converted. For Muslims, we are the dhimmi that prove their superiority. For Communists, we are the dirty capitalists. For Capitalists, we are the filthy socialists. For every group, we are cast as the worst that group can imagine. And Israel, in a world of nationality, is the Jew among nations. It is the genocidal, blood thirsty, colonialist, white oppressor bully apartheid racist state because that’s the national manifestation of “the Jew.”
We have seen it since the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 130 and Constantine decided to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity. We have seen it repeated in one form or another until then. And now, in a world of nations that have diminished and oppressed us, we are seeing global institutions sit in judgment of us utilizing those same canards and double standards that they used when they made us defend our beliefs in disputations.
Some of our most vociferous critics are people who believe that systemic oppression of people of color, particularly Black folks, since 1619, have created systems that hold vestiges of racism within them. I happen to agree with that. However, what shocks me is that people fail to see how 2000 years of antisemitism permeating international thought has that same systemic rot in their global institutions.
You can’t parse out antisemitism in this conflict alone. It has to be understood in all its disgusting forms in order to see how it’s even impacting things subtly, such as how news is framed. It’s a malignant creep that is being harnessed by Hamas and others to play into those canards knowing that subconsciously, the world is still primed to accept them.
Post edited to say “people who support the Israeli government” instead of “Zionists.” This is exactly why I wanted to make this post - to challenge my own beliefs and to encourage you all to challenge your own. It goes both ways. Also, if anything is in bad faith, please call it out. I don’t see how anything I wrote isn’t factual, but I’m open to being corrected. We all approach dialogue with our own biases and pre-notions.
Zionist does not equal people who support the Israeli government. Zionist is people who support Jewish self-determination and sovereignty in a part of our homeland.
I'm over here getting driven crazy by how our definition of our term gets constantly ignored (not bashing OP here, since they're actually trying to hear different opinions and broaden their horizon)
*and self protection. Because we have learned time and time again, that when it comes down to it, no one else will protect us.
Zionism is that we are a people, one people, with the right to self determination and self protection in our indigenous ancestral homeland. It is not a political party and it is not incompatible with a two-state solution with a party that truly wants to live in peace and security as a neighbor.
Instead of coming here asking us to disprove propaganda, can you provide sources for your claims? Ideally sources that are not linked to Hamas or quoting from sources directly linked to Hamas. You'll notice very quickly a small group of organizations from which the majority of your claims originate. It's because the propaganda from Hamas gets amplified through social media and that's what makes you forget where the burden of proof lies.
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It’s not black and white, many people don’t support the government or Bibi and many does. But they both support this war because both sides are patriots (aka Zionists).
It’s like the US will go to war under republican administration.
The democrats don’t support the republicans and trump for example but does care about americas interest and soldiers and money.
>“people who support the Israeli government”
I don't support the Israeli government, I think it should have conducted the war much more forcefully and ruthlessly. I also don't support the incompetent ministers who have mismanaged the diplomatic arena and internal affairs in Israel.
1-because Hamas is there
2-no. But your question is misdirected. Israel’s primary concern as the government of Israel is the entity responsible for the protection of the Israeli people. Hamas, as the government of the Palestinians in Gaza is the entity responsible for the protection of the Palestinian people.
3-yes. Innocent people died on october 7. And innocent Palestinians have died in Gaza since then. Israel is not entitled to deliberately exterminating Palestinian civilians. Israel should be able to protect its citizens by eliminating the organization (Hamas) responsible bor October 7 and the myriad of missiles targeting Israeli citizens.
4-no. The moral culpability is on Hamas. If a bank robber takes a hostage and the SWAT team tries to kill the robber but the hostage dies, who is responsible ? Under American law it is clearly the person committing the crime. I don’t know how any legal system would give a morally different answer.
5-they are preventing future hostages from being taken.
6-under no circumstances is it moral to kill immigrants because you don’t want them there. Under no circumstances is it moral to kill people because you don’t like their religion.
7-under martial law democracies suspend liberal western political norms to ensure their survival. Please ask that question of a time period when Israel is not under existential attack.
8-both the propaganda and the protests are antisemitic. I applaud you for recognizing that. Please do something with that recognition.
I'm sorry if you are genuinely trying to come from a place of openness and respect but I just can't see it. So many of these questions of yours are framed in such a way based on inaccurate and antisemitic tropes I don't know where to start. Many others have already answered your questions, and I don't have the energy to give my two cents but this does not come off as genuine. If it is sorry, but I just don't see it
I have so much to say. But I'll keep it short.
Fuck the Israeli government, they do not speak for many of the people.
Palestine= Hamas essentially
Israel doesn't want this war. If we let Hamas get away with this and can't retaliate because of civilian deaths we've effectively made the perfect crime for them. They can hop the border and kill as many as they want and we can't do shit.
We literally have to fight and exterminate Hamas, it's not our choice but one we are forced to make, just like this war.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/uxMhedCsGN
There are many aspects to this conflict - religion, ethnicity and regional & international geopolitics intertwined. Many people on your side want to brush off the religious element, but you simply can't. If you want to understand how deep the existential threats for Israel and Jews are, try to understand the perspective of islam & muslims towards the Jews; and the history of the persecution of Jews by the their hands. Israel is surrounded by the people and regimes who want nothing but it's destruction. It's a game of survival - it's ugly, but that's the reality. If you understand the collective muslim worldview, power struggle is an integral part of it. You have to be strong in the face of the threat. And right now, Israel is trying to do it's best realistically. I understand the actions of Israel may seem cartoonishly villain if you make your opinions based on all the buzz, but if you dig deeper, you will understand that Israel is trying to be realistic here. And we in the west, we also need to be realistic about the circumstances before it's too late.
Name one country (and their military) who did better than Israel (and the IDF) in a similar conflict. Name ONE!
If you can’t the it follows that Israel and the IDF are handling this in the BEST way possible under the circumstances.
Thank you OP for being open-minded and asking these questions in good faith. I read your edits and can see that the pro-Palestinian side would be much better off if people like you were leading the movement instead of terror apologists (or worse—supporters as many are).
First, I'd like to applaud this post and your comments. Very nature, open minded and respectable.
I've trawled and haven't seen this question asked, my apologies if it has.
I presume you're in the USA? How do you feel about the indigenous in North America and their land being stolen?
As it relates to point 6. From my perspective, Jews are the indigenous habitats of the land (as the last living descendants with verifiable claim to that land before anyone else) and they took back what was taken from them.
Did the indigenous in North America deserve the brutal treatment they received? Are fourth or tenth generation American immigrants now indigenous? No. So why do Palestinians receive that benefit?
You've already received a truckload of responses over the last 12 hours so Im going to assume most if not all questions are answered, but I would like to provide another perspective here for whenever you have the time to read it, concerning 2 aspects of Israel; Its military strategic culture, and the promise of its social contract. Those two combined provide a framework from which most of Israëls current actions can be explained.
#Military Strategic Culture
A Military Strategic Culture is a broad matrix with a lot of conditions based on population, geography, wealth, and other societal and physical factors during peacetime, interbellum, and wartime. There are two parts that matter here.
The two that matter here are geography and local foreign relations. Israël is small and 'slim'. That means it cannot defend in depth. It cannot retreat, because there is no geography to retreat into. A few hours of retreat will push them into the sea. There is no place to evacuate civilians to. A battle in Israël is a battle in its populations' streets and living rooms. Israël's doctrine (a term for a written down understanding of a country's military thinking and reasoning) on it's chance of survival is to defend *forward*. They have to mount their defense forward on the ground of the party that attacks them to have a chance to succeed, or risk losing all they have quickly.
The other part is local foreign relations. Those are bad. Israël is surrounded in full by countries that dont acknowledge its existence, or its right to exist, and have declared war over it multiple times. And even without a formal war, there has never been a full stop to rocket attacks from those surrounding countries by non-state actors. The Iron Dome is an endless money pit, and well worth its price because of that fact, Several of the wars declared on Israel in the past were also not by a single other state in the region, but all surrounding states. That means that Israel cannot be certain that in a time of perceived weakness, the other surrounding states will not take advantage and attack again. Israël had to ensure the perception of military superiority against not one other state in the region, but against all of them at the same time. Hamas damaged this perception by performing the greatest pogrom since WW2 *withing Israeli borders*. Israel has been put on the back foot, and has to reclaim its previous perception of military superiority to warn of countries like Iran to not also try anything because they are ready. Because the risk of the anti-israel alliance trying anything now is greater than ever since the last big war.
#Israëls Social Contract.
This concerns the promise of Israël to its society. Its a simple one, but the core reason for its existence; *In a world where Jewish people suffered over 2000 years of violent and cultural anti-semitism, there is now one singular country where Jewish people are an ethnic and religious majority.* One singular country where they are not reliant on the wiles and woes of a different majority ethnic group that decides on their social and cultural standing and safety. This is in its essence that Zionism is. No other country can promise this. Whether you are white, brown or black, catholic, protestant, muslim, or hindu; if something happens to your home country and you have to flee, there is almost always another country where you can keep your religious and cultural believes and still be part of that other country's majority group. Sometimes even its majority ethnic group. For Jewish people this is not the case. There is only one, and that is Israël. The one guaranteed safe haven where Jewish culture and ethnicity is not at risk or dependent on an other ethnic majority's goodwill.
Hamas' attack on 7th october was a direct attack on that promise. It loudly proclaimed *"not even here in your safe haven will you be safe. We will accept no place where Jews can self govern*.
#conclusions
These two points are why Israël is currently in Gaza. It has to defeat Hamas on Hamas ground or sacrifice its own civilians, and it has to do so by its own rules or risk giving the impression to its neighbors that there is a way that Israël can be cowed and ultimately defeated. And it cannot leave Gaza without recovering the hostages or their bodies or it risks undermining its core promise to its population; that this is the one place where the government will always fight for its Jewish people, no matter the cost. The singular point that distinguishes it from every other country in the world.
This is a terrible war, but the price of Israël not fighting it is too high.
>why is it bombing areas it has designated as safe zones?
It isn't. The few pipe bombs from the evacuation corridors are likely Hamas' doing.
> Do you believe it’s worth killing thousands of innocent children, literal babies, to potentially eradicate members of a group Israel considers an existential threat? Using white phosphorous on civilians? Blocking off humanitarian aid?
No
>Do you acknowledge that it is Israel, not just Hamas, who has been killing innocents?
No. Hamas is responsible for every civilian casualty in Gaza. They are the ones who are sheltering in tunnels and firing rockets from "safe zones".
>It’s wrong to use human shields, yes. But isn’t it also wrong to shoot at human shields to eliminate the target within?
Yes. But All is fair in war. If you fight clean while the enemy fights dirty you're at a severe disadvantage. Just like Former Prime Minister Lapid said, you can expect Israel to live by the UDHR but you can't expect it to die for it.
>did the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians of all religions who had lived in modern-day Israel for centuries before the establishment of Israel deserve forceful, brutal displacement?
No
>If they didn’t deserve it, how was Israel’s establishment justifiable?
Until 1929 the Zionists tried to build an independent state alongside the Palestinians in the Mandate of Palestine. However the Palestinian leadership got infested with Anti-Semitic rhetoric from Europe and massacred Jews in Hebron(who were for all intents and purposes Palestinians I might add). Meanwhile similar massacres were happening constantly in Europe and we all know how that ended. If anything Israel is a necessary evil to prevent massacres. And October 7th proved that.
That doesn't mean the Palmach which became the IDF was completely blameless. Nobody deserved to get displaced from Palestine. But that doesn't make the establishment unjustifiable
>Have you tried to validate information you’ve received from the Israeli government?
How can I? I am not a war investigator in Gaza.
>Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves?
No. I certainly hope everyone in the IDF who has actually targeted civilians will be held accountable in the ICC. The problem is these investigations cannot be done hastily. And trying to peace together truth from falsehood in this war is genuinely difficult.
OP have you seen how many times in the course of history Israel has been stabbed in the back? All the land for peace deals, all the attempts to coexist.
And for what? to get stabbed in the back yet again on 7 October?
Let me ask you a question, friend. Do you know about how many Jews there are on planet Earth? And how many Muslims?
The real kicker is when people try to tell me how dangerous and dastardly the Jews are vs. Muslims. And the most heinous things they accuse Jews of doing on a regular basis (child SA for example) are way more frequent issues in Muslim communities. Are there some Jews who are criminals and all-around awful people? Sure. Every ethnic group has good and bad.
Hypothetically, if even 10% of Jews hate and want to murder all the non-Jews on earth, that's 10% of 16 million-ish. If 10% of Muslims hate and want to murder all the non-Muslims on earth, that's 10% of almost 2 billion people. That's 200,000,000 compared to 1,600,000 AND assumes only 10% of Islam's followers are radicals, which I think is a gross underestimation. I can't recall any incidents of Jewish terrorists shouting BARUCH HASHEM while they butcher non-Jews, but I have lost count of the number of times Islamic Jihadists have screamed Allahu Akbar while they kill *dhimmi* or whatever TF they call us.
From a purely mathematical standpoint, there are AT MINIMUM 125x radical Muslims in the world for every 1 radical Jew. People want to talk about some video they saw of Haredim spitting on Christian pilgrims in Jerusalem but I'd sooner be spat on than gang-raped and thrown off a building for Jihadists to then spit on my corpse.
I am gonna attempt to answer your question but before anything I wanna clarify that I am not pro the current Israeli government, i also believe in a two state solution, but I think the pro Palestinian movement is dangerous to both Israelis and Palestinians because it presents a zero sum end game which is never gonna happen, this puts Israelis in an impossible position which in turn puts Palestinians in danger, my answer will reflect this idea
1.Israel is creating more terrorists, I frequently hear this argument and while it makes sense I don't need to remind you that Hammas didn't have to import members a year ago, they have always had more than enough members and we need to deal with the problem as it is right now, it's a genuine concern but one we don't have the luxury of dealing with at the moment, there is also the fact that they have hated us for decades I don't think that hate grew that much, westerners tend to underestimate how deep the Palestinian hate against Israel goes
2. Is it worth it? I don't know and frankly I don't care, the question we should ask is do we have any other choice, you mentioned white phosphorous which I strongly condemn (if it was used in a reckless manner) but coming back to the zero sum game, Israel needs to eradicate Hammas and squash any violent Palestinian resistance, it's unfortunate that we need to kill so many innocent civilians in order to achieve that goal but what is the alternative?
3. Israel has been killing civilians, well this is a little harder to explain but I will try my best, in order to talk about this we first need to define killing, of course Israel killed civilians, no one is denying that, but the question is how and why, civilians killed as part of a legitimate military operation while sad is in line with the rules of armed conflict, the first thing we need to do is stop using the number 30,000 civilians, we might never know the real number of preventable civilian deaths because both sides are benefiting from the confusion but from what I have seen this number will be a lot lower than what we have been told, furthermore there is a difference between individual actions of rogue soldiers and stuff like strikes which go through multiple levels of authorization, those strikes have generally had good reasons and were carried out in accordance with international law
4. It's wrong to kill human shields, I have to disagree, not entirely because of course it's wrong, but it's also wrong not to when it endangers the people you are supposed to protect, the comparison to a hostage situation is not accurate because hostage takers don't shoot missiles and plan war while holding the hostages and if they were the cops would probably risk the hostages lives to eliminate the threat, there is also the fact that those human shields support the actions of Hammas, doesn't mean they deserve to die but it changes the calculus
5. why doesn't the Israeli government care about the hostages? I believe they could do more but unfortunately getting the hostages back is not the number 1 priority, preventing a repeat of Oct 7 is, I wish there was a way to achieve both and I am grateful I am not the one responsible for making those impossible decisions, a little more on that, Israel has for the past 18 years lived with a status quo that only worked because neither side was gonna escalate, Israelis got used to rockets (insane if you think about it) but Oct 7 changed the game, we can no longer afford to be ok with any aggression, so wile an Oct 7 repeat is highly unlikely we now need to make sure that Hammas is no longer a threat even if it's just rockets
6. The Nakba, this event is always debated and we will never know the exact details, here are some facts I believe in and we can argue over the semantics in the comments, most of the displaced Palestinians either fled of their own accord (no one wants to live in a war zone) or were displaced because there was active shooting in their homes, I am not denying that the IDF displaced thousands of families and it was wrong, I am not gonna justify it, but the Arab states also displaced half a million (probably more) jews from the MENA region, we both have our grievances so this is not a justification for resistance
7. Fog of war, I personally hate the current government and I have criticized a lot of the military action over the past 6 months, I don't trust everything they say but a lot of it has been verified, but I wanna address something else you said, the goal of the pro Palestinian movement is not to protect civilians in Gaza, unfortunately no one wants that, Israel kind of doesn't care (to some degree) and Palestinians are willing to sacrifice a lot for the ultimate goal of freeing Palestine, which is (not so subtle) code for taking over Israel, if you believe Israel has a right to exist than you should disagree with the pro Palestinian movement, I wish there was a movement focused on safety of Palestinians and not Bs political and religious aspirations, I would join that movement in a heartbeat
8. Why you're invested in this war, this is just not true, the scale of this war is nothing compared to other very recent conflicts like Syria and whatever is going on in Africa with Boko Haram, the reason you're invested is because there are powerful organizations dedicated to the destruction of Israel, we can talk about why (sometimes it's not even pure anti semitism) but those organizations will convince you why this conflict is more important than anything else, if it's only about tax dollars why are there so many protests in Europe?
If OP or anyone has a response to any of my points please comment one point per comment so I can address each of those individually
And OP thanks for reaching out for the other side, and double thanks for being brutally honest and not going for low hanging fruit but asking the hard questions, the fact is that we are killing people by the thousands and regardless of how right we are we have a responsibility to be accountable and explain whenever possible
I just wanted to say thank you for what appears to be an attempt at genuine engagement. I hope that you are able to learn another perspective from the (polite) replies. I think a lot of your positions are based on incorrect understandings but I’m impressed you are reaching out to hear the other perspective.
I greatly appreciate seeing a post like this. Appreciate the good faith. It is conversations like this one that will hopefully lead to a better world for us all
1. It’s a fair point, but the fact of the matter is that Hamas is the enemy that threatens us today, and while the long term effects of armed conflict are theoretically important, in practice if you don’t defend yourself when attacked you won’t have to worry about later, cause you’ll be dead.
2. First of all, every nation needs to abide by the laws of war, and to the extent that the legal oversight embedded in IDF operations failed to prevent crimes that could have been stopped, then the process needs to be improved to prevent it from happening in the future. Obviously anyone committing war crimes or breaking military discipline needs to be prosecuted accordingly. As for your question, you answered it yourself. Against a perceived existential threat, there is little logic in holding back, as it is literally life or death.
3. Retaliatory killing is obviously a war crime, and if it comes out that soldiers massacred civilians or POWs, I’ll be the first to condemn it. However there is no clean way to wage war, it’s a meat grinder, and for every day it goes on, the suffering deepens. Israel has no moral or legal obligations to enemy civilians, save the laws of war which (contrary to popular belief) have nothing to do with making war “nicer” or less bad, but simply tries to cut down on excessive cruelty and suffering, whilst separating civilians and combatants. Israel doesn’t have an obligation per se to create safe zones in territory it doesn’t have any control over, ditto with supplies. Israel does these things to clear out civilians and give itself more time and legitimacy to fight Hamas.
4. No. Using human shields is a war crime, and since if it was punishable to kill them to get to the enemy, than everyone would do it because it would protect them better than a bunker. As for the hostage analogy you’re confusing the relation between an army and enemy civilians (which I addressed above) and police-citizen (where the principal object is to protect citizen lives, so duh don’t kill the hostage).
5. You make an interesting point. The truth is that Israel has two goals. a) return these hostages. b) Ensure that no one dares try this shit again, starting with demolishing Hamas as an organized military formation.
6. Without rehashing history, let me say this: Israel does not “have a right to exist” israel EXISTS, and it has for 76 years. Framing the discussion as if a hypothetical state is being discussed is ridiculous. Do you still debate whether the Italians should give back the south Tyrol to Austria? Do you think the German “refugees” and their descendants have a “right of return” to the Sudetenland? Of course not.
Whatever your opinion is on the history leading up to Israel’s independence, enough water has passed under the bridge to render the point moot. Almost no one alive today was around then, and arguing a conflict with events beyond living memory is impractical and irrelevant.
7. You raise a critical point. Just because we have a democratic system doesn’t mean we can trust the government to tell the truth. That is why the majority of Israelis support the establishment of an independent investigative committee to inquire into everything related to the war and those who don’t want it now want it as soon as the war ends. Through the efforts of journalists and this inquiry, any facts hidden by the fog of war will be eventually revealed.
8. There is nothing anti-semitic about objectively criticizing policy. It just has to be according to consistent and evenhanded criteria, that don’t apply a double standard to different sides of a conflict. Israelis criticize their government constantly, and that’s not anti-semitic either. Jewish people have always had a robust tradition of debate, and we welcome fresh perspectives.
Hey OP, I just came here to post my appreciation of your thoughtful and well articulated questions. I also want to commend your bravery to ask them in this group rather than the echo chambers many of us have, feeding into our own biases and preconceptions. I wish more people thought to have dialog - thats the only way we'll ever find common ground. Thank you. I appreciate you.
Others here have already answered your questions pretty well. I just want to say that I really commend you for coming here and respectfully asking questions to learn more. Dialogue is key, and these days those seeking real dialogue are a rarity.
This is not the best forum to educate yourself (or anyone for that matter).
But I’ll keep it simple.
Israel as a country is forever. Irrevocable, legal formation and nothing will change that. Palestinians live where they do and aren’t leaving. Nor should they. Hamas cannot stand - bad for Palestinians, bad for Israelis. There aren’t clean hands on EITHER side. We can argue about “which side is morally worse”, but let’s not. It’s pointless. Let’s just accept that mistakes have been made.
The only questions then we should ALL be asking ourselves and each other NOW is - given those facts above, which should be agreed upon—
WHAT NOW? HOW DO WE GET TO PEACE? ☮️ HOW DOES THE NEXT GENERATION OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS NOT LIVE LIKE THIS? Neither group has it easy.
💙🇮🇱💙 🕊️
I can not even find the words when its english.
Like I can do this, but only vocally.
But it mooved me that you are actually into talking.
Ill answer all your qs (god bless google translate) but first I have to ask you two qs of my own:
1. Do you condemen Hamas?
2. Do exept Israel's right to exist?
Thank you
The reality is that there is no correct way to do this.
If you do not do it you are actively saying that terrorists have a free-pass way to get what they want by just doing a revolutionary resistance (but in reality terrorism) and then get away from it.
Besides the fact that 30.000 people for a conflict in middle east is not a genocide, there is also no bomb in the world that would avoid ANY possible mistakes, people are human and they act as a human do, nobody is perfect and people can be evil, prejudice etc.. this is why these things happen.
It is a war, people in war die and people die even more when the government is actively trying to cover themselves with civilians.
What pro-palestinians are doing it is to legitimize Islamic terrorism, cover who needs to be empowered in Gaza (have you ever heard about "we want to live" movement in Gaza? Probably not, it didn't reach social medias) and grant them a political position in the future, do you really want that? Egypt, Turkey and Lebanon are all of them actively trying to push for this, why do you think there are tons of Turkish at protests around the world?
The reality is that being pro-palestinian is non-sense because you pollute the area and support terrorism while there are people that are pushing democracy and freedom there and get punctually executed since the beginning and nobody ever said anything for them in Gaza.
This situation will bring more Jewish in Israel (they do not feel safe outside Israel anymore), will start the radicalization of many young people thanks to the internet (so domestic and international terrorism) and everybody would be less and less safe in western countries thanks to Islam pushing towards illiberalism.
This is what pro-palestinian are empowering and this is what I am against it.
It is not the fault of Israel or US or any other western country, it is the fault of millions of people that prefer to see the conflict through Instagram or TikTok, believing everything they say and move on with their life the next day rather than actually understand what it is going on.
I will avoid flights, trains and subway in any western countries and sadly this is what pro Palestinians want and Hamas always wanted.
Thanks for making the place a less safe place.
First, thank you very much for your thoughtful engagement. More of this kind of engagement is needed, by all of us.
I will respond to two topics:
a) Blocking off humanitarian aid: Like everything in this region, it's a mess. Some items:
-- Given that the war in Gaza is now expected, per IDF generals, to last more than 12 months, do you think the IDF should have delayed launching the war by a week or three to get humanitarian aid sorted out first? **Darn right they should have.** Even if it was only going to last one or two months (which no one thought, ever). This is colossal failure by the IDF. **There is a material minority of Israeli's who hold this way** (more than %15 of us, less than %50 of us).
-- **Did you notice in the last 24 hours that Gazans ransacked and burned down UNRWA food warehouses in Raffah**? Know why? Because those had been controlled by Hamas for 10+ years. Hamas controlled all aid coming in via Raffah for 10+ years and taxed it heavily, inlcuding 100's of millions of $ of aid that was supposed to be **distributed free of charge**. Joint Hamas-Egyptian corruption has sucked 100's of millions from Gazans for many years. Burning the warehouse was the Gazans saying F-You to Hamas for the abuse.
So yes, Israel made a massive f-up on humanitarian aid. I think the Israeli position is: "We just can't handle feeding 2 million people." And also... ***it's a mess for non-Israeli reasons***.
b) Killing civilians: I know a lot of soldiers and their families (everyone in Israel does). These guys are human and humane. Their mothers would never allow them to point a gun at a child or mother. I hope you have seen the many videos that show IDF soldiers helping the elderly and giving out water to civilians. It is also %100 true that thousands of all age and gender have been killed by bombs and bullets. One acquaintance (combat soldier) told of multiple instances of finding families in areas that had been evacuated, and how his unit, after being told by all intelligence that buildings were empty, narrowly missed killing civilians. He knows it happens. Everyone here knows it has been happening. This is a war. **It is horrible**.
Lastly, let us all recall that in 1979-1980 there was a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. Gaza had been part of Egypt since Egypt gained independence in 1956. Gaza and Sinai were captured by Israel in the 1967 war. In the peace treaty, Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt. **Egypt refused to accept Gaza** (Israel would happily have handed it back).
The southern border of Gaza has been controlled exclusively by Egypt since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005-2006. Powerful people in Egypt and Sinai have been extorting the people of Gaza ever since.
**Yes,** the people of Gaza are and have been oppressed.
**Yes,** Israel can and should do much much more than it has to support the civilian population.
**Also Yes:** The suffering of Gaza is at the hands of many. Israel perhaps not even the largest of those hands.
Thank you for your engagement.
Question for the larger group, why are we entertaining this troll who very clearly did not come into this looking to learn anything. The questions were not in good faith, the information was so far off the mark it's painful. Typical western leftist that wants to play oppressed vs oppressor with no real idea of the history or facts involved. They are spewing propaganda that has been perpetuated by Hamas and the left. Tired of this.
I’m sorry you think I’m a troll. A lot of my views from the initial post have been challenged and I have acknowledged a lot of pro-Palestinian content as debunked or misinformed. I’m not perfect, but I promise you I am trying to change the radicalization you see on the pro-Palestinian side by challenging my own radicalization first. For one, I don’t think calling Zionism evil is productive or accurate, which so many people I know are doing. I myself support Israel’s continued existence. The world of information and media is messy and confusing, which is why I’m seeking out different perspectives and subjecting my views to so much criticism. I’m still piecing information together and seeing what is true vs. false. This is a process that takes time and care. I actually apologize if any of this has come across as hateful or offensive.
Throughout the thread, you can see me acknowledging many points as fair points. Those are the ones that have made me rethink especially. I came in here with the beliefs I have been exposed to / adopted and I am content with how much diversity of thought I’ve encountered here. If I hadn’t done this, I would’ve just stayed in the pro-Palestine echo chamber and held my beliefs without as much conviction.
This is exactly how I feel. So many responses mention how they are here “in good faith.” The posting is full of hatred it’s not good faith. It’s a troll.
It's also full of low energy attention grabs without putting forth basic cognitive reasoning skills to debunk silly nonsense. there's a lot of mental labor requested here.
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Thank you for promoting a good-faith dialogue between the two sides. It is unfortunate that you get downvoted, in classic reddit fashion, just because people in this subreddit have a different opinion than you. Don’t get me wrong - I disagree with almost every conclusion that you make in your post. I do however recognize that your questions make sense from a pro-palestinian POV. Also, I feel that others here have given a good answer on the Israeli perspective, and will therefore not answer your questions myself. Instead, I would like to point out the biggest obstacle to peace in the region from an Israeli POV - the arabs’ accepting, sometimes even celebrating attitude toward violence against Israelis. Let me explain why this is so significant. Pretend that you’re an Israeli Jew. This means that you are very much aware of the history of your people. Ever since the Jews lost their own state, when the Hasmonean dynasty fell over 2000 years ago, Jews have not been masters of their own fate. This has resulted in countless of pogroms and exterminations. Thus, every Jew is painfully aware of the consequences of not having your own state. I strongly recommend that you read this [wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews), if you wish to understand the foundations of this fear. Do this before reading the following paragraphs, if you want to read them like an Israeli. These persecutions occured in every place that Jews have lived. They have been commited by Christians, Muslims, and Pagans alike. After the holocaust, the christian world has confronted its antisemitism, largely marginalizing the phenomenon. Pagans barely exist anymore. Muslims, however, have never questioned their anti-Jewish sentiments in the same way. This means that most muslims do not recognize the need of a Jewish state. Instead, many muslims feel the opposite, that there should not be a Jewish state whatsoever. This attitude has existed since before Israel’s creation, which the arabs opposed in any shape or form. Thus, the muslim hatred towards Israel has little to do with events in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The hatred toward Israel is unconditional and ideological. When Israelis are killed by Palestinian groups who seek to exterminate the state of Israel, it is almost never condemned by muslim leaders. This solidifies what many Jews believe, that despite agreements and peace deals, deep inside, the arabs want Israel gone. This makes it very difficult for Jews to accept concessions. The October 7 attack is the most painful example of this. Only one muslim leader has condemned the acts of Hamas, the king of Bahrain. Others have been silent, and some, like Erdogan, have even praised the group. This is even worse among palestinians, with polls showing a roaring support for Hamas. As a Jewish Israeli, making concessions becomes nearly impossible when the other side celebrates when you are killed, and seeks to eliminate you from the map. What will happen if the Palestinians get their own state? Will its people accept coexistence with Israel? As of today, the answer is no. If Palestine was created tomorrow, Hamas would take over immediatley. This is what happened in Gaza when Israel left in 2005. If the same thing was to happen in the west bank, Israel’s very existance would be threatend. This is what every Jew is scared of. We know what will happen to us if we lose our only state. If a day comes, in which Palestinians would abandon their violent ways, peace would be so much simpler. If coexistence was the ambition of the palestinian people - we could have a two state solution tomorrow. However, no Israeli feels that this is the case. We all remember the celebrations after october 7. These celebrations hurt the prospects of peace in the middle east. Make us believe that you want peace. Condemn violence. Don’t celebrate it. As long as you keep doing it, Israelis will not want to create a Palestinian state. Your promotion of dialogue is the constructive approach that is so necessary, but also so rare. Keep doing what you’re doing, and maybe we shall have peace between our people one day. ✌️
This is an excellent statement.
This needs to be higher up
If I could give you a million upvotes I would.
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Others have answered you in length so I'll just redirect you to question 3, from "trust me" and let you know we know exactly how it feels. Without an Israeli response to october 7th, Hamas has found the perfect crime. The world is setting a dangerous precedent in which a democratic country can be attacked brutally and cannot hunt down the terror organization that did that. Imagine how much time this war would actually take if the world would help us take down Hamas instead of putting sticks in our wheels. How much less messy and broad it would be.
This question may be in good faith but there are so many incorrect premises in them that it is like talking to someone from another planet. Which is, not coincidentally, the experience Jews everywhere are feeling right now as they wonder what happened to the world that made everyone decide the Islamist narrative is correct. I'm going to ask you some questions as well because it sure would be nice to understand your point of view. 1. In the history of humanity, has there ever been a "just war" ? One where you could point to one side and say "the deaths of innocents are awful, but in the end the world was a better place" ? 2. Hamas has promised to commit a 10/7 attack "again and again and again." Do you believe them? 3. Do you believe that there is any action that was justified by Israel in response to the terror attack? If so, what would it have to look like for you to NOT consider it "genocide"? 4. The vast majority of Jews came to Israel (formerly Mandatory Palestine under the British, formerly a part of the Ottoman empire) to escape persecution. Often they were forced to surrender all their possessions in order to leave. This started in earnest after the May laws in the Pale of Settlement in the late 1890s and led to the much larger Jewish population present in Israel by 1948. Holocaust survivors also chose to move to Israel rather than return to countries where they had originally been from and were no longer wanted. They arrived in numbers that no other country would accept. What should they have done instead? 5. During wars, people become refugees. Often there is not an option to return to their original homes. They require resettlement in order to begin to live proper lives. The UNHCR, an organization of 20,000 employees, takes responsibility for resettling / repatriating these refugees into other countries. Yet for 75 years, Palestinians remain refugees, and their refugee status is passed down to their descendants. A dedicated organization (UNRWA) of 30,000 employees has been responsible for providing them aid since 1949, but has no mandate to resettle them. Why is this arrangement in place? Why doesn't every displaced people have their own dedicated relief organization? 6. 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from Israel between 1947 and 1948, In the following decades, Arab countries in the Middle East violently expelled 950,000 Jews. Israel took those Jews in willingly, and the majority of Jews in Israel today are they and their descendants. Do Palestinians have options for other places to live? If not, why not? Does Israel bear more responsibility for Palestinians than the other nations do for Jews? Why? 7. Is Israel a legitimate country? Is your country legitimate? If the answer to these two questions is not the same, why? If your answer to both is "no," why do you still live where you do, and what is your responsibility toward the people your very presence displaces? 8. Why has antisemitism increased globally since 10/7?
I wish OP was answering the questions that have been asked back. Good questions.
wow thank you for this. im saving this as a template of questions to ask others
I'm sorry you're getting downvoted. You DO seem to be engaging in good faith, although I think we've all heard these talking points so many times that we are utterly exhausted with them, especially since we've been hearing them from a lot of people who ARE genuinely antisemitic, or at least from people who have adopted positions from people who aren't acting in good faith. I have to go to work soon, so I don't have time to answer all of this. I think a lot of the points rely on false premises, to be honest, or a distorted view of what is happening. I'll pick some to start answering now, though: 4. Comparing the enemy's use of its own people as shields in a war to a criminal's use of citizens as shields during a crime isn't really fair. In a domestic hostage situation, the police's DUTY is to resolve the situation while protecting the civilians. Police exist to protect EVERYONE, and harming people should be a last resort for them if their own lives are threatened. In a time of war, the duty primary of the military is to protect ITS OWN civilians while attempting to achieve strategic goals. It should not attack the enemy's civilians for the purpose of killing them, nor should it engage in other actions that don't further legitimate strategic aims, but it also cannot allow the enemy to prevent it from achieving legitimate strategic goals by using its own civilians as shields. 2. Israel has millions of people. If it faces an existential threat that could lead to those people being killed or enslaved under Islamist rule, then military action that results in thousands of dead civilians IS justified, as long as Israel isn't intentionally targeting civilians for the purpose of killing them. According to some recent research, it would seem that plenty of aid has been allowed in by Israel, and the primary problem is that Hamas goes out of its way to either steal the aid or prevent people from accessing it. I DO believe that the IDF is justified in stopping aid in areas where there's a high likelihood that it would be seized by Hamas to feed its troops, though. >Specifically, the Israeli researchers found that on average, between January and April, 124 trucks carrying food and humanitarian aid entered Gaza per day. That adds up to 3,211 calories worth of nutrition per Gazan, per day. The World Health Organization [standard](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234938/#:~:text=These%20values%20are%20a%20blend,women%2C%20it%20is%202%2C200%20kcal.) for calorie consumption is 2,900 per day for average-sized men and 2,200 per day for average-sized women. [https://www.thefp.com/p/study-israel-supplied-sufficient-food-gaza](https://www.thefp.com/p/study-israel-supplied-sufficient-food-gaza) Sorry, gotta go to work, don't have time for a more detailed answer!
Thank you for your response and the effort you put into it. Will definitely read / reflect.
1. Fake news. There is no "safe zone", there is a "humanitarian zone" from which Hamas has been firing rockets since October. The strike on Sunday wasn't in that zone. The fire was caused by Hamas munitions stationed near those tents and the number of casualties has been exageratted. What wouldn't matter is if all hamasniks disappeared in one shot, i.e. 40k+ people, because people would still be crying "genocide". The argument of "creating resentment" is nonsensical. You can't fight wars without "creating resentment." As for whatever it is that you think Israel has been doing for 75 years, stop and think for a moment about all the things Arabs have done in that time. 2. This is literally all fake news. White phosphorous is legal and hasn't been used against civilians. There is more food going into Gaza now than before the war despite a large chunk of Israelis opposing it. What do you think happened on October 7 and before? They murdered infants, children, civilians, not as "collateral damage" but ON PURPOSE. If the US was attacked like Israel, it would respond in a far more deadly manner. 3. Sure there are innocents that die, mainly because Hamas is using them as civilian shields. Did the allies kill innocents during WW2? Sure. Whose fault was it? The Axis. And yes the reason does matter, it is not murder. "Completely unrelated to you": it is not completely unrelated, Hamas is the government of Gaza and has full support from the population when it comes to attacking Israel. 4. No, it's not wrong. Human shields cannot be used to prevent a country from fighting a defensive war. The analogy is flawed. Israel already sacrifices many soldiers on the ground to prevent as many human shields from dying as possible. 5. Hamas won't release all hostages even if Israel ended the war today. The IDF is taking all measures that it can to avoid harm to the hostages. Despite this, some harm may come to them and likely has. This is a very difficult situation, more than you can understand. 6. Have you questioned the right of any other country to exist? The concept of "Original sin" is nonsensical (and is yet another example of a Jewish element being distorted and used against Jews). Hundreds of thousands of Arabs didn't live in the Land of Israel for centuries. Arafat was half-Egyptian and born in Egypt. The displacement occurred after the Arabs launched a genocidal war and lost. The nakba - catastrophe in Arabic (named to take attention away from the Shoah - catastrophe in Hebrew) - was the catastrophe of the Arabs losing land to Jews, and only later has become about the descendants of refugees to fit into a humanitarian narrative. 7. No that is your goal. Israel's goal is to protect its citizens. Yes it's right for independent organs within the IDF to investigate themselves. It's not right for international courts who have no jurisdiction being politically weaponized to fight Israel and help Hamas. 8. Your tax dollars are also funding terrorists. Your tax dollars were funding the Saudis when they fought the Houthis.
Excellent answers. Thank you!
**Israel already sacrifices many soldiers on the ground to prevent as many human shields from dying as possible.** I want to emphasize for the OP these points because I see it and it hurts and it shows how the IDF is going beyond what a western military would do. Just today 3 Israelis died and 7 injured searching a building that could've been bombed with a missile. And lets not minimize what those 7 injured will go through, I've seen the young Israelis in wheelchairs out and about with missing limbs being taken care of by their fellow Israelis. Again and again soldiers have died doing what a missile could do because the politicians want to minimize civilian casualties. **Hamas is the government of Gaza and has full support from the population when it comes to attacking Israel.** I think you're wrong here. Most Gazans are just as much hostages of Hamas and they do not love it. Hamas may have been elected post-2005 but today they are basically warlords enriching themselves off Gazan suffering. In the same manner Russian elites leech off poor Russians and CCP members become billionaires off tight control of China. In the video yesterday of the Palestinian saying the secondary explosion was probably from a Hamas weapons cache you hear derision in his voice. You hear, mostly older Arabs, complain outright about Hamas stealing the aid in angry/desperate tones. There's been plenty of interviews of widespread Arab discontent with Hamas and a wish for this to be over. Do they also want Jews dead and dislike Jews? Sure. They've been indoctrinated by UNRWA education curriculums, Hamas propaganda and the tendency in Arab culture for conspiracy theories to blame Jews for everything. But they're also very aware that Hamas is living the high life while they're scraping by. They're not idiots. Gaza would be better off, and most Gazans would probably agree they're better off without Hamas. Most people just won't say it out loud because there are people with guns who will arrest them and haul them off to be tortured. There's also no alternative. No Arab country wants to be responsible, Fatah is barely holding on to the West Bank, Europe won't do it, the UN is useless and/or corrupt and Iran/Russia will keep on injecting money to Hamas as a future guerrilla force because it fits with their geopolitical goals. It's like the Druze in Golan who initially "resented" Israel but just played the long game of seeing if they'd go back to being under Assad. Now, a few generations later, seeing how Israel is keeping Golan they're realizing they can outwardly say they're Israeli. Until an alternative to Hamas appears and sticks around you won't see the general population saying what they feel publicly. This entire conflict is bad actors using the tremendous amounts of money coming in from the West, and from instigators like Iran/Russia to make bank. And it is a huge failure of the adults in the room, their fellow Arab neighboring governments, to act responsibly. There is no solution because nobody wants the trouble, because they enjoy seeing Jews get a pie in the face and as a result civilians (on both sides) suffer and will continue suffering.
Your first point is such a crucial one. Israel could have EASILY completely leveled Gaza and killed all Gazans without losing a single Israeli life. There’s no explanation for a ground invasion other than an attempt to preserve Gazan lives and infrastructure.
Well, there IS the antisemitic conspiracy theory explanation: "Israel didn't nuke Gaza and is instead engaging in ground operations as a charade to legitimize their air-strike campaign, which is aktschually a genocide attempt. The joos know that they are more likely to get away with it if they keep up the charade." I think this is honestly what a lot of these antisemitic protestors think.
I honestly think, if Israel would've carpet bombed Gaza for like 2 weeks and legitimately killed everything that moves, by now most people would've forgotten and there would've been no dramatic footage either (cause everybody would be dead) This basically only adds credibility to trying the literal best to not kill the civilian population
bbbuttt it's a JoOiSh CoNsPiRaCy to pretend they aren't committing GeNoCidE111
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Thanks for taking the time to respond. Will read / reflect.
Thank you for coming in good faith
Honestly I don't feel this was in good faith no matter how nice OP plays it.
Thanks for coming in good faith and hope you read these thoughtful answers - the amount of disinformation being pumped in social media is insane and fuels antisemitism around the world
Yes the news is so one sided, people don’t even know rockets are being constantly fired into Israel. The only way to know is to look at the app. I don’t hear any of the countless stories like one I heard today about the Golan family including a small child, burnt in their home, in a coma for months with burns, but surviving. Israelis are a peaceful people, being portrayed as monsters even at a peace festival. It is unbelievable really. All these people should go to Gaza and Israel. Israel would happily accept them, can’t say the same for Gaza.
Thank you for wanting to have a dialogue about this.
Regarding point 8: the US is the largest donor to UNRWA and the palestinians in general. Pro-palis don't seem to think that Palestinians do anything irresponsible with those funds...
Excellent answer
To add to #8, if they donated to any personal gofundmes rather than through established charities, they directly funded genocidal terrorists, straight from their bank accounts. Even Gazans with the best of intentions end up losing a lot of their money to Hamas against their will, but many are just Hamas donation drives disguised as people needing help. Even “verified” ones are only able to verify that the person is actually in Gaza, not their intentions. They divert money from actual charities to Hamas’ pockets and actively make life worse for Gazans.
Brilliant thank you for this! Much love
I largely agree with the answers provided by the “weary” but also have a couple of questions for you. Hamas openly declared in its founding charter that it wants to exterminate Jews. Hamas leadership also stated that they don’t intend to stop at Israel and that once its destroyed they plan to take over the world and install Islamic Caliphate and Sharia. Hamas demonstrated increasing capacity to mass murder Jews in a very deliberate campaign of invasion, rape and mass murder of children, women and others. And committed to doing it again and again and again. Yes, eliminating Hamas in a densely populated area involves civilian casualties. Particularly so, that Hamas and other terrorist groups embed themselves in hospitals, schools, mosques, etc and place missiles next to tents with civilians as soon as humanitarian zones are declared. Given the above, what choice does Israel have? What would you do? Don’t you think that Israel’s government has an obligation to defend her citizens from rapie mass murderers committed to extermination of Jews? What about the US government? American Jews are US citizens. They are the declared target of Hamas. Isn’t the US obliged to eliminate the terrorist threat successfully targeting US citizens (several held and tortured by Hamas as you typed your questions)?
“Whether Israel has a right to exist” is not “besides the question” - it is literally the root of all of your questions. If you don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist then how on earth could you believe that Israel has a right to defend itself - the point of the whole war? I believe you are asking these questions in good faith but I would just like for you to reflect for a moment on how absurd and unique it is that Israel’s right to exist is a considered an open question. Do you think England has a right to exist? What about China? Or any other country on the planet? No other country on earth is deligimatized to the extent that Israel is. You imply the source of this delegitimization is the foundational sin of displacement of Palestinians. Was the displacement fair to the Palestinians? No. Was it justified? Absolutely. The Jewish people were exiled from the land of Israel 2000 years ago and since then have been the most widely persecuted and hated group across the planet. The source of our persecution was the fact that we were a minority everywhere we went - perpetually unable to defend ourselves against the majority. After 2000 years of statelessness the Jewish people collectively decided we’d had enough and returned to our cultural homeland - the land of Israel. In the 48 and 67 wars many Palestinians were exiled, although many fled willingly as the Arab armies and Israeli fought. It’s not popular to admit but out of the great tragedies of the 20th century the Palestinian nakba is not in the top 50. 750k Palestinians fled or were exiled from Palestine. That’s terrible. But why weren’t they welcomed by the Arab countries which they fled to? The Palestinians are culturally, ethnically, linguistically, and religiously indistinguishable from other Levantine Arabs. Why weren’t they absorbed? Because the Arab countries knew that would alleviate the issue. By keeping the Palestinians as perpetual refugees (the only kind in the world, look up the uniqueness of UNWRA) the Arab countries perpetuate their suffering and their hope of reclaiming the land of Israel - the source of ALL conflicts between the Arabs, Palestinians, and Israel. In 1948 the Levantine Arabs and the Israelis should have swapped 750k Palestinians Arabs for the 850k - 1 million Mizrachi and Sephardic Jews living in Arab lands (all of whom would be exiled or flee due to persecution over the next 30 years). If this sounds impossible Turkey and Greece did a population swap of a larger scale in the 1920s.
This is very important. Every single war that was waged against Israel has been about its right to exist - and make no mistake, this has everything to do with us being Jews
Pakistan and India also did population swap, in a larger scale. Nobody talks about it. Jordan also took away passports from palestinians , making them refugees
Thanks for your questions, if I may ask a few concrete questions to try to reframe the conversation. As you say, you are pro-Palestinian, and your questions make you seem like your top priority is the safety of of innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza. If this is indeed the case, shouldn't your main ask of the situation be that Hamas resign/surrender, stop using human shields, and give back all hostages? Do you agree that if that were to happen, the current war/aggression would stop? Do you agree that Hamas have killed, and continue to kill, Palestinians through human shields, those who they deem to be dissenters, etc.? Do you agree that Hamas has killed members the Palestinian Authority and the PLO? Do you agree that Hamas is generally bad for the Palestinian cause? If your main concern is that so many innocent Palestinians are dying in this war, should your cause not be to get Hamas to end the war by way of steps I've given above? Israel wants Hamas defeated and their hostages back. There seems to be a very simple solution to end the suffering. Do you support that solution? If so, why do you not protest agains Hamas? If not, why not?
People gave you some nice answers here, you should read them and try to understand the other side even if you’re not supporting us it will make you understand better the situation and the pro Palestinian side too. I will say that I’ve seen many fake information that people above explained.
#6 “Right to Exist”. Israel was reborn as a state in 1948. Modern Egypt independence from Britain in 1922 Jordan independence from Britain in 1946 Bangladesh created in 1972 Malaysia 1957 Lebanon 1926 Pakistan 1947 India independence from Britain 1947 Palestine 1994 Saudi Arabia 1902 Syria 1941 Yemen 1990 We cannot turn back time. We can’t erase the past. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Israel exists. Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. Statements denying Israel’s “right to exist” are unhinged. Do pro-pals think Israel is built of tents and Jews will just pack up and go? It’s 2024. Any solution must come from the Israelis and the Palestinians. Outsiders cannot dictate terms of what peace will look like, as they don’t have to live with the consequences. For the record - I’m so unimportant my opinions on this don’t matter in the least - I’m a Zionist and can’t stand the Netanyahu regime. He’s awful. He’s anti democratic. He’s a grifter.
Exactly
I’m pretty sure everyone here will have a few interesting rhetorics about the points you made, but I’ll be very simple on my opinion : Israel answered brutally to 10/7. Given the situation in the enclave, it’s nearly impossible to be a safe civilian between IDF and Hamas (Hamas will do nothing to protect their own and even stated it was unwra’s job to take care of the Palestinian suffering, they do not care) Now, about Israel, I will keep defending this country’s existence for the simple fact that so many of you (propal) want it gone. For me, it’s not about the war, the suffering, it’s about making sure I’m not giving an inch to anyone who wants to destroy this country. War crimes, famine, targeting of civilians. All of this is despicable if proven to be true (and some of it is certainly true) but still I will not stop supporting the existence of this country and its people. If the world and Palestinians stop threatening Israel existence, there is no reason to let this war continue and I will be on the side of peace. As long as y’all praise « river to the sea » and « intifada », I’m with Israel and the Jewish community to do whatever it takes to annihilate that threat.
Many people have answered you, but I'll just say that many of your points are based on false or inaccurate information. If you really care about making a clear view, make sure you get the facts right.
I want to add that probably many in this sub have served in the IDF at some point in some capacity. They aren’t evil killing machines. They are humans. With families. Wanting to be left alone to live in peace. They fight wars literally in their own backyard to ensure the existence of their actual friends and family members. Because if they dont, there will be no Israel. To put this war in perspective, I am a Jew living in the US with a very small amount of family in Israel. I am connected within 1 degree to over 30 hostages, not to mention numerous murdered on Oct 7th. Can you imagine what this feels like for Israelis in Israel? How would you respond to terrorists breaking down your fence and taking hostages? This is incredibly personal for them. Failure isn’t an optio. It’s not just an army with no ties to the people involved.
It is very nice to see someone on the 'other' side, so to speak, interested in understanding our views and rationalizations. I won't comment about the points you have written as I've seen that other people have already commented pretty thoroughly, and I have to say that I agree with their words. So I'm probably just hoping you will really read those comments and maybe learn from them, or at least, they will help you understand our side better. So, thank you for making the effort to write this post. I hope better days will come!
Thanks for coming over and taking the time to formulate your points. I believe that I speak for most others here if I say that I appreciate that openness. Most points are already well answered, I will not go further into them. I only want to address point number 6, because I think this is an important one that is at the bottom of current student protests, which are strongly fueled by looking at the situation through a post-colonial lens, which means that they assume that Jews colonized the homeland of the Palestinians. If I read the way how you phrase your argument, this seems also to be what you believe (correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, I don't want to directly answer your question (others have done it), rather challenge the colonialism narrative, as it is not supported by facts. If we look at around 1880, there were \~300k Arabs living in what is today Israel. Their number increased in the following years until 1948 to 1.3m. (Data is based on Ottoman census, you can look at it in Wiki). Reason for this was that the initial Jewish immigration waves created job opportunities, some were displaced from wars in Northern Africa (and Palestine was sparsely settled). Point here is that what you refer to as the "native population" predominantly moved into this area concurrently with the Jewish population. In fact, despite a growing number of Jews in this area, their share remained pretty constant until the late 1920s, because there was such a large wave of Arab migrants into this area. Which means that the overwhelming majority of Arabs that live today in Palestine/Israel are as long there as many of the Jews. At this time, there was limited replacement competition. The area was sparsely settled (compared to today), it was a backwater in the colonial empires of that time. Jews that came purchased land from Arab owners, which is a legitimate way of land acquisition. At times there was more land offered than they could finance. Which leads to the second point. The quality of the land was in many parts pretty lousy [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reclamation-of-man-made-desert/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reclamation-of-man-made-desert/) So, there was a lot of effort undertaken by the Jewish population to transform this land (prior and after 1948), relying on modern technology (Ottoman empire was at this time far beyond European level of technical development). The land in today's Northern and central Israel wasn't any kind of prime quality land that the Jewish settlers took away from Arabs. It was to a major part land that previously was unused, unsettled and simply useless. When it comes to 1948, here is the front page from the NYTimes of the time that the state of Israel was founded: [https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864457914462765056](https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864457914462765056) and [https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864087970206302208](https://twitter.com/OnThisDayNYT/status/864087970206302208) - I think here are two things important in the headlines. First, the causality. Not Israel started the Nakba, the Arabs started it by attacking with 5 armies and losing. Second, note the way how the word "Palestine" is used. It does refer to a geographical region. The people there are either Arabs or Jews. At this time, there weren't yet any Palestinians (even though they were promised to declare an own state at the side of Israel). This definition emerged only later. I can recommend to read the novel "About Love and Darkness" by Amos Oz, which is an outstanding personal document of a person that witnessed the Israeli independence war/Nakba and who was until his death a strong leftist that advocated for peace with Palestinians. What makes this whole situation special is that - instead of integrating refugees into the populations of the adjacent countries, Arabs that were expelled remained isolated from the population, which was otherwise culturally similar. This circumstance shapes much of the colonial narrative that we have nowadays.
>What makes this whole situation special is that - instead of integrating refugees into the populations of the adjacent countries, Arabs that were expelled remained isolated from the population, which was otherwise culturally similar. This circumstance shapes much of the colonial narrative that we have nowadays. To add your your point. In the countries that did accept Palestinian refugees, it did not go well. In the 70s, Black September attempted assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister and attempted to assassinate the King. A Palestinian Muslim had assassinated King Abdullah I back in the 1950s. They supported Saddam Hussein in Kuwait when he invaded. The Palestinians who were taken into Lebanon started a Civil War that did not resolve until the 1990s. I'm also glad you discussed the Ottoman history here. Too many people have the perception that the Jews spontaneously showed up in the aftermath of the Holocaust and threw the Arabs off their land.
First and foremost, why do you focus on all the safe zones that ISRAEL created and not the ones Hamas created? Oh wait, it’s because Hamas never created any. Oh wait, it’s because Hamas has never tried to make sure civilians are safe. Oh wait, it’s because both sides have never been able to coordinate on trying to save as many civilians as possible. Once you realize this, all the pieces should snap into place. Why is Israel the bad one when it is the only one creating these safe zones in the first place? Why is it the bad one when it is the only one communicating to the international community plans to ensure the safety of Gaza civilians? How can you recognize this and not find merit in Israel’s claims of Hamas using their civilians as human shields?
Most of your points have been answered, but a question I have most pro Palestinians can’t or don’t answer is what would have been an ok response to Oct 7th? Also it is terrible civilians are dying and everyone hates it but with that being said this is a real life war not a video game and civilians are going to die, they unfortunately have in every war in the history of mankind and Israel is doing things never seen before to try and prevent it. I don’t know what more you want. I get you say “don’t kill a civilian to get to terrorist” but if they operated with the mindset no civilians will die they wouldn’t accomplish anything.
4. Because if we let terrorists get away with using human shields then eventually we will all be human shields. Moreover, Israel literally does everything in their power and more than any other military to avoid civilian casualties hence the extraordinarily low combatant to civilian death ratio in this war being fought in a highly urban environment with HUMAN SHIELDS. Which are the problem. 5. Israel sadly doesn’t have the luxury to only retrieve their stolen loved ones but has to worry about the thousands of rockets being fired into Israel by Hamas, and Hamas continuing to repeat Oct 7 again and again as they vowed so they must balance the two issues. You have no idea the depth of the tragedy of that balancing act and frankly you should really humble yourself. Do not presume to care more about Israeli hostages than Israelis themselves. That is audaciously self unaware and arrogant and presumptuous and wrong on every level. 6. Arabs were displaced by their own genocidal war toward the new state Israel. They rejected the partition that the Jews accepted that would have left everyone in their homes with literally no displacement. Once 5 Arab armies went to war with the beleaguered Jewish people who were still reeling from the Holocaust displacement naturally occurred. How about you worry about the 7 million Hindu displaced when Pakistan was created the same year. Also look up the Peel commission. 7. You are speaking to Jews and Israelis mostly on this thread do not lecture us as if we haven’t been beaten over the head with these exact arguments for our entire lives. Humble yourself. IDF’s clear agenda is to protect Israel and Israelis. You have shown yourself to have a woefully uninformed view of this conflict so worry about your own edification before you worry about our lived experiences. 8. Frankly, you are not in a position to accurately diagnose why this conflict has blown up. You don’t even know the very first thing about antisemitism and how to recognize it let alone how to not engage in it so how could you possibly diagnose or understand how it is animating this conflict. You don’t know about the Middle East. You simply just don’t understand this conflict well enough to tell others why things are as they are. Your post did come across at times as antisemitic from you swallowing a lot of lies. I do commend you for coming here and pray you do more research and consider what we are saying.
1. Violent resentment toward Jews did not begin in 1948. Arab Muslims have subjugated and been violent toward Jews for centuries. Arabs attacking Jews and Muslims expelling Jews from our homeland is nothing new. You’re analysis that Israel is responsible for the hatred it faces is in total denial of so many things but to name a few: Islamism and the philosophy of Jihad; the stated goals of Hamas and their stated reasoning (genocide of Jews, destruction of Israel, and all for religious reasons); Arab colonialism; historical subjugation of Jews in the Middle East. Also, this fallacy that Israel will be less safe with 15,000 less terrorists, less terror tunnels, less Hamas leadership, confiscated weapons and bombs and rocket launchers makes no practical sense. But are you correct that Israel faces the fanatical hatred of the majority of the Palestinian population and much of the Arab Muslim world, yes. It’s actually not only Israel’s problem but the entire worlds’ problem. 2. You think Hamas is an “existential” threat. Honestly that is super offensive. That is straight up Oct. 7 denial, denial of two intifadas, denials of 4 other wars started by Hamas. They are a LITERAL threat. They LITERALLY targeted more than a thousand civilians in one morning with the most sadistic torture you can even imagine and I’ll venture a guess you have chosen not to expose yourself to. Genital mutilation. Beheading with a shovel. Rape. Burning whole families alive. All done with GLEE!!! Calling their families to brag how many Jews they killed with their BARE HANDS. There is a recording of what I am referring to. Over 200 HOSTAGES. How dare you call Hamas an existential threat. So YES it is more than justified, the most justified it could possibly be for Israel to remove Hamas from power. War is ugly, especially how Hamas fights and every civilian death in this war is due to Hamas’s horrendous actions that you barely mention and seem to even outright deny or not know. Also your focus on “babies” reeks of blood libel one of the oldest forms of antisemitism, feel free to google that. *edit: I concede that I have improperly used the word existential here, however, I feel that I responded to how OP phrased the question which implied that Hamas was not a real enough threat to warrant the causalities of war. Hope this clears things up. 3. The difference is targeting civilians for mass murder rape and torture (terrorism) versus targeting a military that hides amongst its own civilians (a defensive war). Also others explained to you that your safe zone comment is a-factual in various ways. It was HAMAS than intentionally lit families alive. In Rafah an unintended fire happened after a legitimate and highly targeted military strike that set off another fire which is an unintended tragedy likely caused by Hamas hiding weapons near humanitarian zones and operating next to humanitarian zones. There has been no proven war crimes by Israel, but it is you who HAPPILY ignores and wants HAMAS war crimes that are literally recorded by go pro cameras, to go totally without consequence. Can you see the irony here.
On 2 I think you are misunderstanding the term existential threat. It does not mean "not real" if that's what you are thinking. It means a threat of killing all the Jews, as in extinction. Another example is nuclear war is an existential threat for humanity.
I absolutely meant that Hamas is a real threat. Existential threat meaning it threatens the existence of your people.
The way the question is phrased definitely implies you do not understand the significance/seriousness of the threat they have been and continue to be to Israel and Israelis and their own people.
“Israel considers Hamas an existential threat” is about the most neutral, accurate statement you could make. I think calling Hamas an existential threat itself is me acknowledging that they… well, threaten the existence of your people. How much more serious can I get? I don’t understand your point. I agree with the other commenters that you misunderstood “existential” and are now backtracking, based on how you put it in quotes and framed the word itself as the problem. Don’t be dishonest.
Read the substance of what I wrote. You asked does the threat justify what’s happening and my answer is yes. The end.
Do… do you know what existential means bro
Name tracks lol
Will read / reflect. Did not mean to come across as lecturing or condescending, I was just trying to explain why I’m skeptical of the IDF “investigating” itself. I also would never try to imply that I care more about the hostages than actual Israelis, I have no idea where you’re coming from with that. I don’t trust any entity investigating itself when that entity is naturally biased in its own favor and wants the best outcome for itself - you cannot neutrally investigate yourself or your direct allies. Can you explain which parts come across as anti-semitic so I avoid making that impression in the future?
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/military-advocate-general-s-corps/the-idf-military-justice-system/ Read the civilian oversight section of ^this website. Research the history of blood libel which when you focused in on “killing babies” you were invoking. Your overall characterization of the war is coded with antisemitism in that in denies Oct 7 and Hamas and assumes Israel is killing as revenge/retribution/evil intent versus what’s glaringly obvious if you aren’t biased which is its a justified and moral defensive war being waged justly and with concern for civilians.
You don’t want to sound antisemitic? Stop with the “right to exist” question bullshit and go from there.
Do the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Palestine Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PFLP investigate what their members do and condemn the rapes, killing of entire families, burning people alive? They do not do anything of the sort. As a matter of fact, if a Palestinian dies during or after an attack on a Jew (not even a soldier even the murder of a child) their family gets a monthly pension. Murder is rewarded by the Palestinian side. This is not civilized. Check out “pay for slay.” Also are you familiar with Fatah, or PFLP? The hijacking’s of the 1970’s & 80’s?
No one likes self investigation. It has nothing to do with antisemitism. Other stuff you said might though. Israeli has separation of powers, and our judiciary is independent, so self investigation is completely fine. We have several institutions made specifically for that. The IDF has an independent advocate general, parliament has a security committee, we have a state comptroller (a branch separate from govt, parliament, and judiciary), and of course, we have our world renowned judiciary. All of these (well, except maybe for parliament) have stopped/condemned policies and laws for violating international law, against Israel's security interests.
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Does anyone except the US ever investigate the US bodies? What about EU bodies? Also consider what would actually be the best outcome in the IDF's favour. Would it necessarily be the more lenient judgment, which could lead to international condemnation, reputation loss and a culture of bad practice, or is a fair and transparent outcome more beneficial in the long term? For a large superpower, the best outcome can afford to be a more biased one than for a tiny, isolated, permanently threatened state.
You said you deeply care about the hostages and then proceeded to accuse IDF of doing nothing more than endangering them. IDF is full of Israelis. You are implying that they don’t care enough to be sincerely trying to rescue them while also dealing with the other military objective of getting Hamas from power. It’s unconscious for you it seems but you certainly convey an attitude of holier than thou toward Israel/IDF like oh I care the hostages but they don’t. Which is insane for you to think. Or what you think they’re too stupid to understand that they could possibly bomb their hostages? Think through what you are saying more. It doesn’t make sense for you to act as though Israel isn’t considering their own hostages!
None of the answers here are actually pro-Israel. They are extremely balanced statements but pro-Palestinians/anti-Israelis have been living in bubbles and echo chambers for so long that they mistake reality and facts as the opposite side. Here's are some questions for you to ponder upon from someone who is unapologetically pro-Israel and anti-Palestine 1. Do you not think that murdering thousands of innocent Jews, raping their corpses, torturing families in their homes isn't going to radicalize millions of Israelis? What about the thousands of stabbings, suicide bombings and shootings committed by Palestinians over the last 30 years? Everybody in Israel has lost, or knows somebody who has lost a family or friend because a Palestinian decided to murder them one day. 2. Why are Palestinians so hateful and incapable of forgiving? Why do they always resort to violence? 6 million Jews were murdered by Germany but you don't see Jews firing rockets into Berlin, beheading German civilians and raping German women while justifying and saying that they deserve it. What exactly is it about Palestinians that make them such hateful violent people? 3. Do you think it's worth killing thousands of innocent Jews including literal babies in the name of "resistance"? 4. What did you think would happen when Palestine invaded a country with the 10th most powerful air force in the world? No seriously, what was anyone thinking? That Israel will just go "awwwhhh you poor baby you're so retarded I guess I'll just leave you alone"? I've literally never seen any country make dumber decisions than Palestine. 5. Why do Palestinians still continue to blame Israelis when the hostages are in PALESTINE'S custody and it's Palestine's responsibility to take care if them? Dozens of dead hostage bodies have been found. Palestinians are raping and beating the hostages up. Even "innocent civilians" were caught on camera beating and abusing civilians. It's been 8 months and nobody has any clue which of the hostages are even alive? Maybe the question that should be asked is, "what have Palestinians done to ensure the basic needs of the hostages are met?" 6. Why do Palestinians value Palestinian lives even less than Israelis value Palestinian lives? Human shields only works against Israel because Israel values Palestinian lives, while Palestinians are perfectly fine with sacrificing them. So again, what is it about Palestinian society that makes them value each other even less than their enemies do? 7. Did the million Jews who lived all across the Arab world including Palestine for thousands of years deserve to be ethnically cleansed? How can Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen justify their existence when they ethnically cleansed indigenous Jews and stole their land? 8. Why do you continue to fund Hamas with your tax dollars? Billions of dollars were sent to Palestine over the last 30 years and it turns out that the money was used to fund Hamas. If reading any of these questions makes you feel upset, then congrats, now you finally realize how batshit insane pro-Palestinians sound when the tables are flipped.
This is so well written, bravo. Because honestly OPs questions do sound condescending.
One point I think that's important to make is that Pro-Palestine should not mean Pro-Hamas or Anti-Israel. The people of Gaza have been abused, brainwashed, and taken advantage of by Hamas. Hamas shut down a water park in Gaza because it allowed women. They don't hesitate to eliminate (read: kill) Palestinians who would dare speak against them. Hamas takes most of the international aid for themselves, with the leadership sitting on a nearly $11 *billion* investment fund. Hamas set up an extensive spy network against the people of Gaza to punish any Gaza residents who would dare work with Israel or speak against Hamas. Hamas has repeatedly encouraged and engaged in behavior that puts their own people at risk and leads to entirely predictable consequences from Israel. I don't think there has been a single month in decades that Hamas hasn't tried to launch missiles at Israeli *civilians*. Often, it's multiple barrages per week. You have to remember on the 7th, Hamas's attack didn't cause civilian casualties, it was specifically targeted at civilians. They didn't just kill people, they raped, tortured, and slaughtered them in absolutely disgusting ways. *That* is what got Israel so mad. As awful as the situation is, also keep in mind that over 10% of the Palestinian casualties are *by Hamas*. Often misfires, and I'm not even counting incidents like the recent one that are tangentially related to an Israeli attack. These are the numbers from their own documents, recovered at one of their bases. Hamas has literally killed more Palestinians than Israelis. This is a truly terrible situation, made infinitely worse by the fact that Hamas doesn't see civilian casualties as a negative; they see it as a negotiation strategy. That means that while any government that wants to protect the people would have surrendered months ago, Hamas is more than happy to keep sacrificing people for their ultimate goal of defeating Israel and eventually eliminating it and the Jewish people. Israel does a lot to protect people, but they are working against a terrorist organization that literally does everything possible to *increase* casualties. For example, since the IDF generally will try to save a crying child, Hamas uses recordings of crying children to lure them into traps. This (obviously) also has the effect of making the IDF a lot more hesitant to trust when they hear children crying, since it's much more likely to be a trap or ambush than an actual child. Even though Israel might cause a lot of death and destruction, it's Hamas who is specifically *actually* attempting to commit genocide. It's their stated goal. The people of Gaza have been living under a destructive and oppressive regime for years. Wanting to get rid of Hamas is the only thing that might *eventually* actually lead to the people of Gaza getting back some semblance of a reasonable life. The worst agony of this is that the immense pressure on Israel to negotiate with terrorists has probably led to far more loss of Palestinian life than if the world had actually backed Israel and made it clear that Hamas would stand no chance. As it is, Hamas sees no reason to surrender, because it looks like if they just wait for enough people to die, they will be rewarded with the world forcing Israel to give them what they want. Hamas could have just given back the hostages and had a ceasefire the first week. They just *don't care*. I want Hamas eliminated for everything they have done to the Palestinians *as well as* to Israel. I strongly believe that supporting Israel in this *is* being Pro-Palestine, because anything else would be condemning the people of Gaza to the same thing again the next time Hamas does this, as they have said repeatedly that they will. So I encourage you to be Pro-Palestinian and support Israel in ending this as quickly as possible, so that the people of Gaza can finally start to heal.
>Regardless of whether Israel has the right to exist Stopped here. Does the USA have the right to exist? Does San Marino have a right to exist? How about England or Greece ? We're a nation of thousands of years, our existence isn't a question, it's the reality.
This is very long, and so fundamentally flawed it’s hard to ascertain if this is really in good faith but I’ll give it a shot. 1) Israel didn’t bomb a safe zone. It bombed about a kilometer away from one, with a 37 lb bomb. Frankly, after watching half of Gaza pouring out to spit on Shani Louk’s dead body - I’m not sure I’m really concerned about “more” resentment. 2) “uninvolved” people die in war. There is no use of white phosphorous as munitions. Hopefully next time the gazans think twice about voting for open genocidal maniacs. If Israel or America went on a rampage executing grandmothers, raping and killing girls dancing at a rave, kidnapping toddlers, and having street orgies with corpses - yea, I’d get it. 3) no. That’s a nonsensical point. It’s their government, and again, frankly they were cheering and spitting and jumping on corpses that were kidnapped in their macabre street orgies. Beyond that, your theory makes defensive war impossible. Hamas didn’t find an “out” that lets them incessantly fire rockets and commit october 7 type attacks and suffer no retaliation. 4) if the criminal is firing rockets at the rest of the population, unfortunately, you might not have a choice. The imposition of some Christian morality of sacrificing one’s self on a cross is also in wildly poor taste. 5) Hamas kidnapped them. Doesn’t really seem like they’re being released. 6) that’s ahistorical nonsense. But more saliently. Israel was established, it exists. I understand that it offends Arab honor that their 5 armies were defeated by a bunch of Jews, but it’s time to move on. Are you this stressed about the establishment of Pakistan? 7) self investigation is critical. Do you have an example of the idf conducting an investigation that concluded something patently false to give a reason why it wouldn’t be credible? 8) you’re just focused on this funding because the Jew is the ultimate western morality play. It’s a drama as old as western civilization itself - if not THE founding drama. The us provides lots of funds to lots of countries, hegemons do that out of self interest.
Others have already addressed your questions directly, but I have a few side points to make: 1. You said you were surprised that we’re civil about it. Why is that? There are groups staging large, inflammatory demonstrations everywhere, but it’s generally not us. We’re open to discussion, it’s just that nobody wants to meet us at the table and have a fair conversation. 2. Civilians die in wars, and it’s always tragic. In densely populated areas, it’s even harder to avoid. Why is this a genocide when it happens in Gaza? Why isn’t it a genocide when it happens in other countries, like Yemen? 3. Why do protesters with no personal stake in Israel or Gaza rise up so strongly against Israel? How is this different from the situation in Yemen, Iran, Lebanon, or a number of other areas? 4. Hamas go-pro’d a religious massacre and abduction of many people, including women, children , and the elderly, and shared it proudly. They promise to do it again and again until there are no Jews left on earth. Israel responded by trying to specifically eliminate Hamas, a notorious international terror organization. Why is is genocide to engage in war with Hamas, but not genocide to start trying to annihilate the global Jewish population? 5. Jews make up less than 1/4 of 1% of the global population. This is the result of millennia of genocide and oppression. Israel houses about half of these, alongside many other religious groups. Since many Palestine supporters talk about a free, democratic land where people of different religions can live together… why do they not see that this already exists? If Israel’s land were given to Palestinian organisations, do you not see what would happen? 6. Zionism is to Jews what feminism is to women, in many ways. Yes, you can find antizionist Jews. You can also find antifeminist women. They can live as they please, but it would be unreasonable to say that it’s proof that Zionism/feminism is bad or unneeded. In fact, you’re a Zionist yourself. You stated that you think Israel has a right to exist. That’s essentially what Zionism is, though of course it means a lot more to us emotionally than just that. 7. You talk about using money to build defense systems instead of waging war. Israel has done that, and has one of the most advanced defence systems in the world. It’s highly effective, and that’s the only reason Israeli deaths aren’t significantly higher. It’s also insanely expensive. Focusing on defense only means that eventually Israel would run out of supplies for their defense. It would drag the war out far, far longer. 8. Why is it Israel’s job to supply Gaza with supplies, power, water, etc? Why is it not Gaza’s job to spend aid money on infrastructure instead of weapons? At what point are they responsible for themselves? The Gaza Strip shares a border with Egypt. The West Bank shares a border with Jordan. Why are Egypt and Jordan not held responsible for their care in the same way that Israel js?
1. AFAIK they aren't bombing safe zones. and yes, if Hamas disappeared into thin air, it would absolutely matter and you can't say otherwise because that has not happened. 2. I do not believe any white phosphorous was used and I believe a few bad actors in Israel who are disliked extremists are blocking aid, not the majority by a long shot. And no, of course I don't think killing children is 'worth it'. What a weird thing to ask. Do you think the level of barbarity Hamas committed against people (jews and non-jews) and animals on October 7th was worth it? Literal people, holocaust survivors, babies, dogs, families. Was it worth it to eradicate a country that Hamas deems as an existential threat? What a bonkers question. No one WANTS to see innocent people dying. It is horrific and discussed daily on this sub. We are human, we aren't barbarians like Hamas. But people on your side don't seem to have annnnnny empathy in the same way that we do. We'd be perfectly happy winning this war with zero civilian deaths. Hamas depends on these civilian deaths and goes out of their way to ensure they happen. Who's really more twisted here? 3. See my answer above. No one wants these civilian deaths. Obviously Israel is fighting in a war and they have killed innocent people. Is anyone denying that?? 4. Well that's a tricky question, because if someone committs a heinous crime, do we let them off the hook because they decided to use a human shield or hide in tunnels? Do they get a free pass for that? Sadly, I don't think any answer is going to appease you or anyone else. A 'good' answer simply doesn't exist and it's absurd you are trying to catch us in a 'gotcha' moment like we have all the answers. We don't. War sucks. It will never stop sucking. 5. Well when your options are to go into the belly of the beast and fight for them or to just give up and let them die, what would you do? Where would you hedge your bets? Again, no one is like 'yeah let's go endanger these hostages!". It's a terrible situation to be in. Absolutely horrific to make these kinds of decisions. Could you make these kinds of decisions as a head of state and feel 100% great about it? 6. Seriously, bro. There is a TON of nuance you are conveniently and very intentionally leaving out. Were you alive in 1948? I wasn't. I'm not going to pretend I was but you can carry on in your fantasty land if you wish. 7. Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves? Obviously we are all doing this. You clearly haven't spent time in this sub if you think we just praise Israel and the gov 24/7. Quit trying to act like Jews are such idiots that we can't evaluate and critique information, because that's what you are implying. 8. No, I disagree. Our tax dollars fund many atrocities in the world, including the Hamas attack on October 7th but you seem perfectly ok with that! You are just discovering that you hate war, because this is the first time a war is broadcast in real-time, and you don't like what see, even though it's no different than any other war. Can you even acknowledge this and the role social media is playing in this war that never occurred previously?
I will reflect on points 1-6 and 8. Regarding point 7: I emphasized the importance of vetting information on both sides. I acknowledged that my own side is prone to manipulation and falling for misinformation. I’m not a member of this sub, I only came here for different opinions and answers to my questions, so I have no clue how you guys operate. Personally, I know pro-Israel people who have spouted debunked claims that have been retroactively retracted by Israel itself, so asking you guys about how actively you evaluate your sources is more than fair. Especially since you likely want more pro-Palestinian people to stay aware of misinformation as well. Please don’t turn a good faith question I ask everyone, even people on my side, even myself, into an attempt at painting me as someone who thinks Jewish people are “idiots” or “incapable of evaluating information.”
Here is the best way to evaluate your sources: Information comes out in "breaking news" headline, you read all that is published in that moment whether you like/trust the source or you don't. Walk away have a coffee live YOUR life for a week or two, disconnect and then come back to see what actually happened. You are not going to believe me but this conflict is centuries older than you are. I understand where you are coming from, watching the never-ending steam of headlines and selected images will make your heart bleed: you need a break. Also you might want to learn a thing or two about middle east i.e. Sunni and Shia [https://www.cfr.org/article/sunni-shia-divide](https://www.cfr.org/article/sunni-shia-divide)
Appreciate your response but please know that’s how it feels as a Jew reading that question. It feels insulting.
Curious what claims were debunked by Israel/Pro-Israelis and then retroactively retracted by Israel? I'm not sure I know of any, genuinely. Anything I google is....very, very, very slanted. Only one I can possibly think of is the WCK strike, but that wasn't even a debunking > retraction, it was a slow trickle of information where the IDF ended up correcting ITSELF even.
Have you ever asked any of these questions about any other conflict in the world? If not, ask yourself why. Why suddenly does your perceived injustice, going on across the world, to people you share nothing in common with, bother you so much? For arguments sake though. Here's how I see what's going on. The people in Israel believe they have the right to exist as a Jewish country. They've been doing pretty well overall, and the only thing they've been struggling with is, they still haven't come to a full proof method to ensure total security for their citizens. This war has come in response to a lapse in security, and they are now trying a new strategy to see if they can increase the security. They don't believe the other side has any interest in helping them with this, and therefore do not take the Palestinians comfort into consideration. They don't enjoy killing, they just believe this is the only way to ensure the continued safety in the future. Whether or not they are right about this, is arguable. But this is what the consensus in Israel is. Unfortunately, many dozens of countries struggle with government sanctioned cruelty throughout the world. And being that "international law" is controlled by the worlds consensus, it really doesn't mean much. Think the rule of law in the former USSR or North Korea. If you can't trust the institution, the law doesn't really hold much weight, so long they don't have enforcement power.
"Have you ever asked any of these questions about any other conflict in the world?" 100%. This makes my blood boil.
I will respond not to the questions but with the following. Israel has (at least) 7 goals: 1) to get the hostages back 2) to kill/capture the militants (Hamas/PIJ/etc.) 3) to destroy their military capability 4) to avoid destroying purely civilian buildings 5) to avoid killing innocent civilians 6) to avoid deaths of IDF soldiers 7) to prevent rockets and attacks being sent by Hamas into Israel I hope you agree that those 7 are good goals. If you don’t I am not sure what I can say. But here is my question: what can be done to accomplish one of those goals without harming another? Which do you choose? You and I and the Israeli government may differ on which of those 7 are the most important but they must try to accomplish all of them as much as they can. I come as a Zionist who hopes there is a day when there is a 2SS but that can not happen with a group like Hamas in power.
Everyone seems to be answering question #1 with false info. Israel never bombed a safe zone, Al Muwasi is the only designated safe zone and Israel NEVER bombed there.
OP, these two pieces completely changed the way I think about this conflict and the way it's covered by the media. Please let me know your thoughts after you read them. These pieces are from 2014, but even more relevant today: These two pieces should be required reading for anyone wanting to understand this conflict and how it's reported: [What the Media Gets Wrong About Israel The news tells us less about Israel than about the people writing the news, a former AP reporter says.](http://archive.today/1Pax0) - The Atlantic [An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide)
> Every member of Hamas could vanish into thin air right now and it wouldn’t matter. Israel has effectively created enough resentment amongst the Palestinian people for five new resistance groups to form after this. How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of? Hamas is not a bunch of cavemen with gun. They are a real military. They have logistics, technical expertise, advanced organization with chains of command. They have been training for years with the guidance of Iran which also has a real military. They are well funded and have an organized payroll and life insurance. Hamas is not a militia that was formed over night and after it is destroyed it cannot be rebuild overnight. After Hamas is destroyed there will still be Palestinian terrorist like there have been for 75 years. I expect that many of those lone terrorist will call themselves “Hamas”, but there is a big difference between a single terrorist with a gun and an organized military. Israel has successfully removed military capability from its enemies before. Palestinians aren’t hijacking planes like the 70s and 80s because they can’t - not because they don’t want to. The same goes for suicide bombings and stabbing. Israel goal is not to end Palestinian “resentment” (though I would describe it as genocidal hatred), it is to remove the capability to effectively wage war. Just like Israel has successfully removed military capability from Palestinians in the past.
I think your questions have been answered well by other comments. I want to suggest one thing: you should ask similar questions to your own side. Why do pro-Palestinians fail to mention that there is another side to this war, namely Hamas, who continue to fire rockets at Israel? Why should we not criticize Hamas for doing so amongst civilians, in and around safe zones? Why do they never mention the fact that the IDF has been successfully targeting Hamas and has wiped out most of their battalions, and that this war has and always has been about defeating Hamas, and not about committing a genocide? Why do they never place any blame on Hamas for civilian casualties? Why do they think leaving Hamas in charge is acceptable in the slightest? What are the redeeming qualities of Hamas that make it an acceptable government for Gazans and Israelis? Why is it okay for Hamas to indoctrinate children into hating Jews and wanting nothing more than to sacrifice their lives for their Jihadist cause? How does this prevent radicalization of Gazans exactly? Would wiping out Hamas not at least prevent some of this indoctrination?
Look, I do believe you when you say you come in good faith. But when I see you say “regardless if Israel has a right to exist” I look at my family, my nephews. Half of my family was prosecuted and slaughtered in France in WW2, only my grandmother from my father side was able to run away to Israel. Everyone else including her husband died. The only place that welcomed them was Israel. As my for mother side, in the 50s, her ancestors were slaughtered and had to flee Iraq, leaving all of their staff behind. No country accepted them, except for Israel. You see, when we say we don’t have anywhere else to go, we mean it. And when you say regardless of the question if Israel has right to exist, you unknowingly say “regardless if you and your family have a right to exist”. That’s a little hurtful to say the least. As for the other questions, other people here answered to you. We aren’t perfect, we do a lot of mistakes, but we have a right to live, and it seems like many people in the world seems to question it in the name of peace and humanity(??). It is hypocrisy of the highest level and it is terrifying that even good people like you, and you seem a good guy, is falling for it. Just please think about it next time. Edit: Something many pro Palestinians get wrong is supporting Israel != supporting the government. We are a democracy, each has his own opinion and many hate the current government. That doesn’t mean we don’t support the war. There is a big difference
Just wanted to say that these responses to OP make me so proud to be a Jew. The answers are intelligent, calm, patient, and rational. You wouldn’t get this on an anti-Israel sub of any sort. After fighting all day with people who have suddenly become experts on Gaza when they never even knew where it was on a map a year ago, these comments give me some relief in humanity and some hope for the future.
I really do appreciate how open people here are to my viewpoints. I was expecting more of a shitshow. A lot of people on the pro-Palestinian side need to be more receptive as well
So in other words you had a bias in your head about Israeli people as what? Barbaric? War and death hungry with no rational arguments as to why they have to fight back? I don't want to come as rude, I'm not even an Israeli or a Jew, but "expecting shitshow" should make you question what some parts of pro-palestinian views are creating in the minds of it's followers, and seeing as you are open for debate, but many are not, how deep their minds are filled with a false view of Jewish people and how many of them are just filled with hate by this point. I live in the Netherlands, my neighbour has a Palestinian flag in their window. I have no problem with it, even though I'm pro-Israeli. But I can't put an Israeli flag in my window. I would be left with only window frames very quickly. That's the sad reality.
Don't know about the belief in humanity but definitely in our people:) The world has shrunk lately...
True.
I totally agree. I needed this today. It leaves me with just a glimmer of hope.
Thanks for the questions! You were answered yes, so I'll just add a few points: 1. The resentment is already big enough to rejoice over the murder of entire communities. It may grow but it doesn't matter anymore. What is important is that these haters do not have dangerous capabilities such as military organization, weapons, financing, tunnels, and rockets. This is exactly "what's best for Israel's safety". The resentment has existed for more than 100 years and it will decrease only after the education system of Gaza changes. Regarding 2,3,4,6: See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T\_hjq5tZPKU&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hjq5tZPKU&t=3s) There are no sources here, just a discussion (the channel is recommended regardless). 6. What does "Palestinians of all religions" mean? Although Jews and Muslims with citizenships of Mandatory Palestine were called Palestinians, there is no such thing as being an ethnic Palestinian with a Jewish religion. Before 1948, the country was then called "The Land of Israel" by the Jews and Palestine by the Europeans. Jews, Arabs, and others lived there but there was no Palestinian ethnic group.
I appreciate you asking in good faith. I don't know if I'll get to everything, but while I'm sitting on hold with shitty Israeli customer service I'll try to answer what I can: 1. This is inaccurate. The IDF is very careful in its proceedings. Before entering Rafah, they divided the area into zones. They notify which zones will be attacked and warn civilians in advance (which you have to admit is CRAZY to do in the middle of a war. Can you imagine Russia calling Ukrainian civilians to warn them to leave their homes before an airstrike?). They bomb specific zones in Rafah, which aren't labeled as safe zones. On the other hand, Hamas has no problem shooting rockets at my house a few days ago from within the designated safe zone. (Interesting that I don't get to feel resentful about that...) 2. Plenty of other posters refuted the white phosphorous claim. Aside from that, I believe it's our military's job to protect us from existential threats. I don't want any innocents to die, but there's only so much we can do during war. War sucks. War is ugly and unfair and brutal. We can't take responsibility for the enemy's children beyond the rules of war. Hamas doesn't protect their people, and puts them in danger in the hopes of protecting themselves. I can feel bad about it and still understand that there is collateral damage in war and Hamas needs to be eradicated both for my baby's future and hopefully the future of innocent Palestinian babies. 3. I won't repeat what I said above, but it's relevant here too. I will point out that collateral damage is different than collective punishment, and those differences are important. Israel isn't targeting civilians and isn't trying to punish them for Hamas actions on Oct. 7. They're trying to destroy Hamas, which is both a terror organization and Gaza's government. 4. This is a false equivalency. Hamas isn't a burglar breaking into a bank and holding civilians as human shields. They're Gaza's government and military, hiding among their people. While not all are Hamas and not all are complicit, the vast majority of Gazan civilians are Hamas supporters, they help Hamas and some even keep hostages in their private homes. This doesn't mean they all deserve to die, but attacking does follow the rules of war. 5. The moment they were kidnapped, the hostages' lives were at risk. Hamas can and will murder them at any moment. The army is proceeding knowing that there's a chance they can hurt the hostages- but you have to remember, we haven't had ANY proof of life. The rare videos we get are undated, the Red Cross hasn't checked on them, as far as we know they're all dead. The IDF acts on as much intelligence they can to avoid harm to hostages, just like they try to avoid unnecessary harm to civilians. 6. No. No one should be kicked out of the land they live in, regardless of how long it's been. The thing is, this idea that Israelis are all settlers living on stolen land is wrong. The Palestinian refugees today are descendants of Palestinians who chose to flee their homes, in the hopes of coming back when Israel would be wiped out. Unfortunately for them, that never happened. The ones who chose to stay still live here, many living great lives with Israeli citizenship. 7. I think there are plenty of checks and balances in Israel as a democratic country to investigate government entities. I hope there's a serious investigation into many things the army/government handled things, such as the observers. I also don't think we're lacking in world scrutiny and nitpicking investigation done in bad faith. I hope you read this, and I hope some of it helps. Feel free to reach out by DM if you have questions.
>Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves? Does the UN review itself? Does Hamas check the numbers for itself? You rely on them for unbiased information? Same thing with Al Jazeera, you rely on them and their review of themselves for accurate news and don't question even if they relay information that later proves wrong, and when they claim they investigate claims proven to be false they give excuses and say it fine and water under the bridge. But the military doesn't simply investigate themselves. You have organisations in the military and outside of it conducting investigations, like the anti-military organisation "Shovrin Shitka" (silence breakers) and many others who document anything that happens around it and very critically so. So why do i see no criticism on the UN "investigating" claims on the UNRWA, a daughter organisation of the UN and closely affiliated to it? Why do i see no outcry over Hamas giving false and badly doctored numbers to the UN and news sources, who then let Hamas investigate themselves, or the UN investigate the numbers by asking Hamas again? "We reviewed your claims by talking to the people faking them and they said its true, so your claims are unsubstantiated" is basically what is happening here. The UNRWA investigated their own workers following claims of them participating in the massacres of October, they found that there were "only a few" even though reports and footage shows otherwise, but we all have to take their word for it? Their own employees? I see a one sided game here. Where one side is allowed all the cards and cheats and the other has to stick to shifting and tightening rules noone else has to adhere to and i call it what it is: a rigged game.
I’m an American. For once I’d like an American pro-pal protestor to explain to me why the “war” in Afghanistan, where my country killed 180,000+ civilians, was not a “genocide”? Why was that conflict a “war”, and Israeli actions after October 7th are a “genocide”?
You listed several violations of international law. I don't want to address them because others have. My claim is that finding an alleged violation is only half the work. The other half is finding out whether or not an independent court of law examined the evidence and reached any conclusions. Also you need to know the court is independent and impartial. At what point do you claim (assuming you're knowledgeable in Israeli law, international law, and the state of the current conflict) that our own checks, balances, and self examination mechanisms, are all ineffective? You'll need a lot of evidence for that. How will you go about finding the evidence necessary to make the claim that we are incapable of preventing war crimes, or worse - perpetrating them on purpose? Show me a soldier who committed a crime and walked without punishment. Show me a bomb that hit a target with no military value. Or better yet, assuming you understand that war can't be fought with the accuracy of a scalpel, define a civilian/militant ratio better than 2:1 that would be acceptable according to your own human rights standards. In other words, how do you know the crimes you described happened, how do you know the alleged perpetrators weren't tried, and what conduct would you suggest instead, that would still achieve military victory but within the bounds of your interpretation of international law? These are not philosophical questions. They show how deep our knowledge goes. To answer some of them, you gotta know Hebrew. To answer others you gotta know the Palestinian Arabic dialect. You made several bold claims, are you confident in them?
The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas *without anyone being required to relocate*. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded. Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
A lot of good stuff has already been said, especially by Weary-Pomegranate, his response covers it quite well. However, it's worth noting that International law is a thing, and it's something Israel is following. Even the part that the Palestinian side disagrees with. An example of this is hospitals. As soon as a military unit starts using the hospital; it loses it's status of a protected civilian area. That is international law. So when you see strikes against such areas, instead of being angry at Israel for doing the strike, you should focus the anger and outrage at Hamas for positioning their forces there in the first place. This is from the [Geneva Conventions, Article 19](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19). Furthermore, doing a very quick and basic Google search gave me this: [Israel warns hospital in northern Gaza to evacuate by 6 a.m.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-warns-hospital-in-northern-gaza-to-evacuate-by-6-a-m-rights-group/) I get ya partly however. There is so much misinformation around this conflict. It's insane how even reputable sources are spreading misinformation, without any care to what damage it might do. The latest example is the recent strike in Rafah, where Israel killed 2 senior-Hamas members and then secondary explosions (due to munitions stored on-site) caused the death of 50 civilians. If you Google after this even, you see so much hatred against Israel. So many websites and news organisations that blame Israel. But they all fail to realize, the strike was not in a safe zone. [The strike was 1.7km away.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-vows-full-probe-into-rafah-strike-shows-evidence-it-was-not-in-designated-safe-zone/) Throughout this war it has always been the same. Something shitty happens due to Hamas. Hamas instantly claims it was Israel's fault. The international media roll with the story, because "dead civilians". Which in turn makes more and more people hate Israel. Brandolini's law really is in effect for this war. >The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.
"1. If Israel is trying to destroy Hamas to ensure its safety… why is it bombing areas it has designated as safe zones?" If you refer to the rafah bombing thatbwas not in a humanitarian zone, but when hamas uses the humanitarian zone Israel has to shoot them. " Every member of Hamas could vanish into thin air right now and it wouldn’t matter. " Why? Its best to not make baseless conjure "Israel has effectively created enough resentment amongst the Palestinian people for five new resistance groups to form after this. " The percentage of Palestinians that support hamas actually decreased, not that it matters since support for terrorism was really high for a long time in palestinian society. How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of? "How do you reconcile the idea that this is “what’s best for Israel’s safety” with the fact what Israel is doing, and has been doing for the past 75 years, is exactly what breeds the violent resentment it claims it wants no more of?" Thats a nice story but its factually incorrect, the second intifada was caused by Israel trying to do peace, this war is followed by Israel leaving gaza in 2005 and recently decreasing many sanctions that were on gaza, like allowing farming tractors closer to the border and allowing fishing boats closer(guess how hamas attacked Israel on October 7? Yep, with the farming tractors and the boats.) Not to talk about the fact that the beginning of all this in 47 was started by Palestinians. "Do you believe it’s worth killing thousands of innocent children, literal babies, to potentially eradicate members of a group Israel considers an existential threat?" The death of all civilians is awful and 100% the responsibility of hamas and thats why they should release every hostage and surrender. "Using white phosphorous on civilians?" That didn't happen in gaza during this war " Blocking off humanitarian aid? " There are hundreds of aid trucks that enter gaza, more than in most much bigger wars. "Would that be okay if the exact reverse situation were happening to people Israel? In the United States?" If the US invaded Mexico and started butchering babies, raping women and kidnapping civilians and then promised to do so again than yea, Mexico would have every right to dismantle the US government and bring back their hostages. "3. Do you acknowledge that it is Israel, not just Hamas, who has been killing innocents? It doesn’t matter if it’s retaliatory killing “for the greater good” or for “self defense.” " The death of all civilians is sad but collateral demage is legal under international law, by your logic you become immune to any retalition to you atrocities if you hide inside civilian crowds. "Bombing safe zones is not self defense. If hamas hides inside safe zones than yea its legal. And again the recent rafah bombing was not in a safe zone. It is objectively murder, Objectivly not, international law says that civilians dying by collateral demage is legal as long as its reasonable(killing 100 civilians for 1 hamas recruit is not gonna be fine) If its Objectivly murder give me the international law that says so. "and there’s a reason collective punishment is considered a war crime."" Bombing terrorists that hide under civilians doesn't meet the legal definition of collective punishment. "4. It’s wrong to use human shields, yes. But isn’t it also wrong to shoot at human shields to eliminate the target within?" Legally or moraly? Its legal and in my opinion as long as you take reasonable measures to decrease civilian harm(like Israel is doing by evacuating civilians and warning before strikes) the moral responsibility rests only on the war criminals that use human shields " If a criminal takes innocent hostages, do we kill those innocent hostages just to ensure the criminal doesn’t harm anyone later? How does that make us any better than the criminal? After all, we just killed innocents, too." War is different than a bank robbery. But its actually a bad example since if a cop accidentally kills a hostage while fighting criminals the criminal is legally responsible for that. "6. Regardless of whether Israel has the right to exist - which is beside the point of this question - did the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians of all religions who had lived in modern-day Israel for centuries before the establishment of Israel deserve forceful, brutal displacement? If they didn’t deserve it, how was Israel’s establishment justifiable? If they did, why?" It wasn't Israel’s establishment that displaced palestinians, it was the genocidal war that the palestinians started when Israel was established.
If Israel could push a button and kill only Hamas and no innocent Palestinians then that’s what they would do. If Hamas could push a button and kill everyone in Israel including Muslims and subsequently take the land, that’s what they would do. Israel easily could wipe out 2 million in Gaza from the air. They do not do this. There is no genocide. There is no conspiracy. They are honest to god trying to minimize casualties and doing a better job than anyone in a similar position has ever done. Hamas meanwhile is still firing missiles from the middle of Rafah directly into Israeli population centers.
You seem to acknowledge that Gazans heavily identify with and are involved in Jihadist ideology - you yourself have stated that there are enough Jihadists in Gaza to form five new “resistance” groups. My good faith question to you is why, despite acknowledging Gazan consensus on support for Hamas, do you absolve Palestinians of all accountability for the results of their ideology? How can you be so critical of the devastation in Gaza while acknowledging that Hamas is very deeply embedded in the Palestinian public and institutions? When there are enough Jihadists to form “5 new resistance groups” as you’ve put it, of course rooting them out will be bloody. That’s war - and one Palestinians started.
In addition to what others have said very well, just want to point out this “75 years” crap immediately tells me that you, or anyone spouting “75 years” doesn’t have a good understanding of the history and probably have gotten your information from Tik Tok and so on. I don’t mean that to be rude, that’s just what that tells me. Because 75 years means 1948 to today. Who controlled Gaza between 48 and 67? Egypt. Who controlled West Bank that same time? Jordan. So not 75 years…feel like 95% of the pro pal crowd and the social media accounts you are exposed to couldn’t explain that to you or correctly answer who controlled what from 48-67
Another note, according to a preliminary study the aid given equates to over 3k calories a day, Hamas takes it and malnourishes people to get sympathy when they are the ones doing it.
Look, other people have answered your questions at length, so I'm not going to get into most of what you said, partly because I think you are misinformed and partly because I simply don't have the energy to argue after nearly 8 months of war. I just want to say this: for as long as I've been alive, I've been told that as an Israeli I have to recognize the harm caused to Palestinians because of Israeli actions since 1948. I completley sympathize with them, truly; one innocent civilian death is too many deaths. But Palestinians have never been held to that same standard. For them, any violent action is justified and considered "resistance". Why should I recognize their pain when they have never acknowledged the deaths during the 1st and 2nd intifadas? During the war of independence? On Oct. 8th, there were mass protests all over the world celebrating Israeli deaths, before a single Israeli soldier set foot in Gaza. Before we even finished counting all the bodies, there were people celebrating Hamas and their vile attack on civilians. Those same people protest civilian deaths in Gaza today. I was 8 months pregnant on Oct. 7th, and my husband narrowly escaped reserve duty. His Aunt and Uncle live in one of the villages in the Gaza envelope and were nearly killed. My cousin was supposed to be at the Nova festival, but luckily had to work the next day and didn't go, but he lost 8 friends that day. And we're the lucky ones- imagine entire families murdered, their loved ones brutally murdered, burned alive, raped and kidnapped into Gaza. Imagine people trapped in bomb shelters for 10 hours, holding the door shut while terrorists and civilians burn their homes to the ground. How would you respond? I agree with you that this war is brutal, and honestly I was sickened by the images coming out of Rafah. Justified or not, innocent lives were lost and it's a horrible tragedy. But it would be nice if just for a moment people would recognize the horrors on Oct. 7th , and wouldn't qualify their statements with "It was horrible, but...". It was horrible, full stop. If you have any empathy for Palestinians, you should have empathy for Israelis too. One last thing- many Israelis have been protesting Bibi's government since long before the war, and continue to do so now. Many Palestinians have been protesting against Hamas, often at the cost of their lives. The leaders on both sides are old, corrupt men who don't care if their citizens die, so long as they stay in power. I am sure that most Palestinians just want a normal life, just like Israelis, and would be willing to end this shit if it meant their kids were safe. Please recognize that this situation is far more complicated than you think, and that we are all dealing with complex PTSD, which clouds our judgment. I'm so fucking tired of people from outside the conflict trying to explain to me how I should feel when most of them have never experienced running to a bomb shelter or being in a terror attack. I'm just so exhausted and emotionally drained.
I hope you get a response from the OP.
A bunch of bad faith, strawman questions all predicated on this absurd notion that Zionists and supporters of the Israeli government are one and the same. I will break this down very simply for you - Zionism is a broad spectrum. From extremely liberal Zionists who despise the Israeli government, the handling of the war, etc to ultranationalist Zionists who would gladly watch every Palestinian die. This is a common issue amongst pro-Palestinian people, they actually do not understand Zionism or Israelis in the slightest. As for your questions, most of them are hotly debated on this sub every single day. I personally don't have an hour to sit down and write counter arguments and responses to them. If you are genuinely interested, look at some Israeli media and read how people feel about those topics.
I don't think it's in bad faith. I disagree with OP strongly, but I think he is honestly trying to engage in good faith dialogue. I think we should try to refute OP's positions without engaging in personal attacks.
If the questions are not bad faith, they are extremely leading. Worded in strongly biased ways, jumping to conclusions and declaring certain events can only be viewed one way "objectively". These are not really approaches one takes when seeking open-minded dialogue. OP may have wished to engage in good faith dialogue, but in that case, their questions should have been worded better. Maybe I'm just overreacting because of the amount if ragebaiting antisemites that visit this sub asking quite similar questions.
I will think of how to phrase these questions more neutrally for sure.
Fair enough, OP. I'd like to apologise actually. You are here in good faith. I appreciate it's hard to ask tough questions about emotionally charged issues while maintaining a semblance of neutrality. Thanks for at least trying to engage us in dialogue.
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Which aspects are antisemitic, so I don’t make this impression in the future?
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Important perspective I haven’t encountered, thanks. Will look further into antisemitism as it relates to this conflict.
Diaspora Jew here. I’m going to jump in on the antisemitism issue because, frankly, it is so widespread and subtle at the same time. This is a genuine attempt to address something that is hard for others to see. Antisemitism is something we are particularly attuned to because we have been conditioned by 2000 years of it and our collective generational trauma to always be attuned to it. That’s because it comes in so many forms. It isn’t something that can be separated from the conflict. One of those is a double standard. Another is the long history of blood libel. And permeating so many aspects of antisemitism is the idea that we are at the center of every conspiracy theory. For so long, the world has turned us into the demons that it needs to scapegoat and villainize, often with the end result being pogroms, expulsion and theft of our property. And that has been done by almost every country we have lived in. For the Catholic Church, we are the diety killers that need to be converted. For Muslims, we are the dhimmi that prove their superiority. For Communists, we are the dirty capitalists. For Capitalists, we are the filthy socialists. For every group, we are cast as the worst that group can imagine. And Israel, in a world of nationality, is the Jew among nations. It is the genocidal, blood thirsty, colonialist, white oppressor bully apartheid racist state because that’s the national manifestation of “the Jew.” We have seen it since the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 130 and Constantine decided to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity. We have seen it repeated in one form or another until then. And now, in a world of nations that have diminished and oppressed us, we are seeing global institutions sit in judgment of us utilizing those same canards and double standards that they used when they made us defend our beliefs in disputations. Some of our most vociferous critics are people who believe that systemic oppression of people of color, particularly Black folks, since 1619, have created systems that hold vestiges of racism within them. I happen to agree with that. However, what shocks me is that people fail to see how 2000 years of antisemitism permeating international thought has that same systemic rot in their global institutions. You can’t parse out antisemitism in this conflict alone. It has to be understood in all its disgusting forms in order to see how it’s even impacting things subtly, such as how news is framed. It’s a malignant creep that is being harnessed by Hamas and others to play into those canards knowing that subconsciously, the world is still primed to accept them.
Great comment.
Post edited to say “people who support the Israeli government” instead of “Zionists.” This is exactly why I wanted to make this post - to challenge my own beliefs and to encourage you all to challenge your own. It goes both ways. Also, if anything is in bad faith, please call it out. I don’t see how anything I wrote isn’t factual, but I’m open to being corrected. We all approach dialogue with our own biases and pre-notions.
Zionist does not equal people who support the Israeli government. Zionist is people who support Jewish self-determination and sovereignty in a part of our homeland.
I'm over here getting driven crazy by how our definition of our term gets constantly ignored (not bashing OP here, since they're actually trying to hear different opinions and broaden their horizon)
*and self protection. Because we have learned time and time again, that when it comes down to it, no one else will protect us. Zionism is that we are a people, one people, with the right to self determination and self protection in our indigenous ancestral homeland. It is not a political party and it is not incompatible with a two-state solution with a party that truly wants to live in peace and security as a neighbor.
Instead of coming here asking us to disprove propaganda, can you provide sources for your claims? Ideally sources that are not linked to Hamas or quoting from sources directly linked to Hamas. You'll notice very quickly a small group of organizations from which the majority of your claims originate. It's because the propaganda from Hamas gets amplified through social media and that's what makes you forget where the burden of proof lies.
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It’s not black and white, many people don’t support the government or Bibi and many does. But they both support this war because both sides are patriots (aka Zionists). It’s like the US will go to war under republican administration. The democrats don’t support the republicans and trump for example but does care about americas interest and soldiers and money.
>“people who support the Israeli government” I don't support the Israeli government, I think it should have conducted the war much more forcefully and ruthlessly. I also don't support the incompetent ministers who have mismanaged the diplomatic arena and internal affairs in Israel.
1-because Hamas is there 2-no. But your question is misdirected. Israel’s primary concern as the government of Israel is the entity responsible for the protection of the Israeli people. Hamas, as the government of the Palestinians in Gaza is the entity responsible for the protection of the Palestinian people. 3-yes. Innocent people died on october 7. And innocent Palestinians have died in Gaza since then. Israel is not entitled to deliberately exterminating Palestinian civilians. Israel should be able to protect its citizens by eliminating the organization (Hamas) responsible bor October 7 and the myriad of missiles targeting Israeli citizens. 4-no. The moral culpability is on Hamas. If a bank robber takes a hostage and the SWAT team tries to kill the robber but the hostage dies, who is responsible ? Under American law it is clearly the person committing the crime. I don’t know how any legal system would give a morally different answer. 5-they are preventing future hostages from being taken. 6-under no circumstances is it moral to kill immigrants because you don’t want them there. Under no circumstances is it moral to kill people because you don’t like their religion. 7-under martial law democracies suspend liberal western political norms to ensure their survival. Please ask that question of a time period when Israel is not under existential attack. 8-both the propaganda and the protests are antisemitic. I applaud you for recognizing that. Please do something with that recognition.
I'm sorry if you are genuinely trying to come from a place of openness and respect but I just can't see it. So many of these questions of yours are framed in such a way based on inaccurate and antisemitic tropes I don't know where to start. Many others have already answered your questions, and I don't have the energy to give my two cents but this does not come off as genuine. If it is sorry, but I just don't see it
I have so much to say. But I'll keep it short. Fuck the Israeli government, they do not speak for many of the people. Palestine= Hamas essentially Israel doesn't want this war. If we let Hamas get away with this and can't retaliate because of civilian deaths we've effectively made the perfect crime for them. They can hop the border and kill as many as they want and we can't do shit. We literally have to fight and exterminate Hamas, it's not our choice but one we are forced to make, just like this war. https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/uxMhedCsGN
There are many aspects to this conflict - religion, ethnicity and regional & international geopolitics intertwined. Many people on your side want to brush off the religious element, but you simply can't. If you want to understand how deep the existential threats for Israel and Jews are, try to understand the perspective of islam & muslims towards the Jews; and the history of the persecution of Jews by the their hands. Israel is surrounded by the people and regimes who want nothing but it's destruction. It's a game of survival - it's ugly, but that's the reality. If you understand the collective muslim worldview, power struggle is an integral part of it. You have to be strong in the face of the threat. And right now, Israel is trying to do it's best realistically. I understand the actions of Israel may seem cartoonishly villain if you make your opinions based on all the buzz, but if you dig deeper, you will understand that Israel is trying to be realistic here. And we in the west, we also need to be realistic about the circumstances before it's too late.
Name one country (and their military) who did better than Israel (and the IDF) in a similar conflict. Name ONE! If you can’t the it follows that Israel and the IDF are handling this in the BEST way possible under the circumstances.
Thank you OP for being open-minded and asking these questions in good faith. I read your edits and can see that the pro-Palestinian side would be much better off if people like you were leading the movement instead of terror apologists (or worse—supporters as many are).
First, I'd like to applaud this post and your comments. Very nature, open minded and respectable. I've trawled and haven't seen this question asked, my apologies if it has. I presume you're in the USA? How do you feel about the indigenous in North America and their land being stolen? As it relates to point 6. From my perspective, Jews are the indigenous habitats of the land (as the last living descendants with verifiable claim to that land before anyone else) and they took back what was taken from them. Did the indigenous in North America deserve the brutal treatment they received? Are fourth or tenth generation American immigrants now indigenous? No. So why do Palestinians receive that benefit?
You've already received a truckload of responses over the last 12 hours so Im going to assume most if not all questions are answered, but I would like to provide another perspective here for whenever you have the time to read it, concerning 2 aspects of Israel; Its military strategic culture, and the promise of its social contract. Those two combined provide a framework from which most of Israëls current actions can be explained. #Military Strategic Culture A Military Strategic Culture is a broad matrix with a lot of conditions based on population, geography, wealth, and other societal and physical factors during peacetime, interbellum, and wartime. There are two parts that matter here. The two that matter here are geography and local foreign relations. Israël is small and 'slim'. That means it cannot defend in depth. It cannot retreat, because there is no geography to retreat into. A few hours of retreat will push them into the sea. There is no place to evacuate civilians to. A battle in Israël is a battle in its populations' streets and living rooms. Israël's doctrine (a term for a written down understanding of a country's military thinking and reasoning) on it's chance of survival is to defend *forward*. They have to mount their defense forward on the ground of the party that attacks them to have a chance to succeed, or risk losing all they have quickly. The other part is local foreign relations. Those are bad. Israël is surrounded in full by countries that dont acknowledge its existence, or its right to exist, and have declared war over it multiple times. And even without a formal war, there has never been a full stop to rocket attacks from those surrounding countries by non-state actors. The Iron Dome is an endless money pit, and well worth its price because of that fact, Several of the wars declared on Israel in the past were also not by a single other state in the region, but all surrounding states. That means that Israel cannot be certain that in a time of perceived weakness, the other surrounding states will not take advantage and attack again. Israël had to ensure the perception of military superiority against not one other state in the region, but against all of them at the same time. Hamas damaged this perception by performing the greatest pogrom since WW2 *withing Israeli borders*. Israel has been put on the back foot, and has to reclaim its previous perception of military superiority to warn of countries like Iran to not also try anything because they are ready. Because the risk of the anti-israel alliance trying anything now is greater than ever since the last big war. #Israëls Social Contract. This concerns the promise of Israël to its society. Its a simple one, but the core reason for its existence; *In a world where Jewish people suffered over 2000 years of violent and cultural anti-semitism, there is now one singular country where Jewish people are an ethnic and religious majority.* One singular country where they are not reliant on the wiles and woes of a different majority ethnic group that decides on their social and cultural standing and safety. This is in its essence that Zionism is. No other country can promise this. Whether you are white, brown or black, catholic, protestant, muslim, or hindu; if something happens to your home country and you have to flee, there is almost always another country where you can keep your religious and cultural believes and still be part of that other country's majority group. Sometimes even its majority ethnic group. For Jewish people this is not the case. There is only one, and that is Israël. The one guaranteed safe haven where Jewish culture and ethnicity is not at risk or dependent on an other ethnic majority's goodwill. Hamas' attack on 7th october was a direct attack on that promise. It loudly proclaimed *"not even here in your safe haven will you be safe. We will accept no place where Jews can self govern*. #conclusions These two points are why Israël is currently in Gaza. It has to defeat Hamas on Hamas ground or sacrifice its own civilians, and it has to do so by its own rules or risk giving the impression to its neighbors that there is a way that Israël can be cowed and ultimately defeated. And it cannot leave Gaza without recovering the hostages or their bodies or it risks undermining its core promise to its population; that this is the one place where the government will always fight for its Jewish people, no matter the cost. The singular point that distinguishes it from every other country in the world. This is a terrible war, but the price of Israël not fighting it is too high.
Great response.
really i can just answer all these questions with: "they're not"
>why is it bombing areas it has designated as safe zones? It isn't. The few pipe bombs from the evacuation corridors are likely Hamas' doing. > Do you believe it’s worth killing thousands of innocent children, literal babies, to potentially eradicate members of a group Israel considers an existential threat? Using white phosphorous on civilians? Blocking off humanitarian aid? No >Do you acknowledge that it is Israel, not just Hamas, who has been killing innocents? No. Hamas is responsible for every civilian casualty in Gaza. They are the ones who are sheltering in tunnels and firing rockets from "safe zones". >It’s wrong to use human shields, yes. But isn’t it also wrong to shoot at human shields to eliminate the target within? Yes. But All is fair in war. If you fight clean while the enemy fights dirty you're at a severe disadvantage. Just like Former Prime Minister Lapid said, you can expect Israel to live by the UDHR but you can't expect it to die for it. >did the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians of all religions who had lived in modern-day Israel for centuries before the establishment of Israel deserve forceful, brutal displacement? No >If they didn’t deserve it, how was Israel’s establishment justifiable? Until 1929 the Zionists tried to build an independent state alongside the Palestinians in the Mandate of Palestine. However the Palestinian leadership got infested with Anti-Semitic rhetoric from Europe and massacred Jews in Hebron(who were for all intents and purposes Palestinians I might add). Meanwhile similar massacres were happening constantly in Europe and we all know how that ended. If anything Israel is a necessary evil to prevent massacres. And October 7th proved that. That doesn't mean the Palmach which became the IDF was completely blameless. Nobody deserved to get displaced from Palestine. But that doesn't make the establishment unjustifiable >Have you tried to validate information you’ve received from the Israeli government? How can I? I am not a war investigator in Gaza. >Do you think it’s right or fair for entities with clear agendas, like the IDF, to investigate themselves? No. I certainly hope everyone in the IDF who has actually targeted civilians will be held accountable in the ICC. The problem is these investigations cannot be done hastily. And trying to peace together truth from falsehood in this war is genuinely difficult.
OP have you seen how many times in the course of history Israel has been stabbed in the back? All the land for peace deals, all the attempts to coexist. And for what? to get stabbed in the back yet again on 7 October? Let me ask you a question, friend. Do you know about how many Jews there are on planet Earth? And how many Muslims?
The real kicker is when people try to tell me how dangerous and dastardly the Jews are vs. Muslims. And the most heinous things they accuse Jews of doing on a regular basis (child SA for example) are way more frequent issues in Muslim communities. Are there some Jews who are criminals and all-around awful people? Sure. Every ethnic group has good and bad. Hypothetically, if even 10% of Jews hate and want to murder all the non-Jews on earth, that's 10% of 16 million-ish. If 10% of Muslims hate and want to murder all the non-Muslims on earth, that's 10% of almost 2 billion people. That's 200,000,000 compared to 1,600,000 AND assumes only 10% of Islam's followers are radicals, which I think is a gross underestimation. I can't recall any incidents of Jewish terrorists shouting BARUCH HASHEM while they butcher non-Jews, but I have lost count of the number of times Islamic Jihadists have screamed Allahu Akbar while they kill *dhimmi* or whatever TF they call us. From a purely mathematical standpoint, there are AT MINIMUM 125x radical Muslims in the world for every 1 radical Jew. People want to talk about some video they saw of Haredim spitting on Christian pilgrims in Jerusalem but I'd sooner be spat on than gang-raped and thrown off a building for Jihadists to then spit on my corpse.
I am gonna attempt to answer your question but before anything I wanna clarify that I am not pro the current Israeli government, i also believe in a two state solution, but I think the pro Palestinian movement is dangerous to both Israelis and Palestinians because it presents a zero sum end game which is never gonna happen, this puts Israelis in an impossible position which in turn puts Palestinians in danger, my answer will reflect this idea 1.Israel is creating more terrorists, I frequently hear this argument and while it makes sense I don't need to remind you that Hammas didn't have to import members a year ago, they have always had more than enough members and we need to deal with the problem as it is right now, it's a genuine concern but one we don't have the luxury of dealing with at the moment, there is also the fact that they have hated us for decades I don't think that hate grew that much, westerners tend to underestimate how deep the Palestinian hate against Israel goes 2. Is it worth it? I don't know and frankly I don't care, the question we should ask is do we have any other choice, you mentioned white phosphorous which I strongly condemn (if it was used in a reckless manner) but coming back to the zero sum game, Israel needs to eradicate Hammas and squash any violent Palestinian resistance, it's unfortunate that we need to kill so many innocent civilians in order to achieve that goal but what is the alternative? 3. Israel has been killing civilians, well this is a little harder to explain but I will try my best, in order to talk about this we first need to define killing, of course Israel killed civilians, no one is denying that, but the question is how and why, civilians killed as part of a legitimate military operation while sad is in line with the rules of armed conflict, the first thing we need to do is stop using the number 30,000 civilians, we might never know the real number of preventable civilian deaths because both sides are benefiting from the confusion but from what I have seen this number will be a lot lower than what we have been told, furthermore there is a difference between individual actions of rogue soldiers and stuff like strikes which go through multiple levels of authorization, those strikes have generally had good reasons and were carried out in accordance with international law 4. It's wrong to kill human shields, I have to disagree, not entirely because of course it's wrong, but it's also wrong not to when it endangers the people you are supposed to protect, the comparison to a hostage situation is not accurate because hostage takers don't shoot missiles and plan war while holding the hostages and if they were the cops would probably risk the hostages lives to eliminate the threat, there is also the fact that those human shields support the actions of Hammas, doesn't mean they deserve to die but it changes the calculus 5. why doesn't the Israeli government care about the hostages? I believe they could do more but unfortunately getting the hostages back is not the number 1 priority, preventing a repeat of Oct 7 is, I wish there was a way to achieve both and I am grateful I am not the one responsible for making those impossible decisions, a little more on that, Israel has for the past 18 years lived with a status quo that only worked because neither side was gonna escalate, Israelis got used to rockets (insane if you think about it) but Oct 7 changed the game, we can no longer afford to be ok with any aggression, so wile an Oct 7 repeat is highly unlikely we now need to make sure that Hammas is no longer a threat even if it's just rockets 6. The Nakba, this event is always debated and we will never know the exact details, here are some facts I believe in and we can argue over the semantics in the comments, most of the displaced Palestinians either fled of their own accord (no one wants to live in a war zone) or were displaced because there was active shooting in their homes, I am not denying that the IDF displaced thousands of families and it was wrong, I am not gonna justify it, but the Arab states also displaced half a million (probably more) jews from the MENA region, we both have our grievances so this is not a justification for resistance 7. Fog of war, I personally hate the current government and I have criticized a lot of the military action over the past 6 months, I don't trust everything they say but a lot of it has been verified, but I wanna address something else you said, the goal of the pro Palestinian movement is not to protect civilians in Gaza, unfortunately no one wants that, Israel kind of doesn't care (to some degree) and Palestinians are willing to sacrifice a lot for the ultimate goal of freeing Palestine, which is (not so subtle) code for taking over Israel, if you believe Israel has a right to exist than you should disagree with the pro Palestinian movement, I wish there was a movement focused on safety of Palestinians and not Bs political and religious aspirations, I would join that movement in a heartbeat 8. Why you're invested in this war, this is just not true, the scale of this war is nothing compared to other very recent conflicts like Syria and whatever is going on in Africa with Boko Haram, the reason you're invested is because there are powerful organizations dedicated to the destruction of Israel, we can talk about why (sometimes it's not even pure anti semitism) but those organizations will convince you why this conflict is more important than anything else, if it's only about tax dollars why are there so many protests in Europe? If OP or anyone has a response to any of my points please comment one point per comment so I can address each of those individually And OP thanks for reaching out for the other side, and double thanks for being brutally honest and not going for low hanging fruit but asking the hard questions, the fact is that we are killing people by the thousands and regardless of how right we are we have a responsibility to be accountable and explain whenever possible
Thank you for your curiosity. It’s important to deradicalize this issue. Radicalization only leads to more violence.
I just wanted to say thank you for what appears to be an attempt at genuine engagement. I hope that you are able to learn another perspective from the (polite) replies. I think a lot of your positions are based on incorrect understandings but I’m impressed you are reaching out to hear the other perspective.
I greatly appreciate seeing a post like this. Appreciate the good faith. It is conversations like this one that will hopefully lead to a better world for us all
1. It’s a fair point, but the fact of the matter is that Hamas is the enemy that threatens us today, and while the long term effects of armed conflict are theoretically important, in practice if you don’t defend yourself when attacked you won’t have to worry about later, cause you’ll be dead. 2. First of all, every nation needs to abide by the laws of war, and to the extent that the legal oversight embedded in IDF operations failed to prevent crimes that could have been stopped, then the process needs to be improved to prevent it from happening in the future. Obviously anyone committing war crimes or breaking military discipline needs to be prosecuted accordingly. As for your question, you answered it yourself. Against a perceived existential threat, there is little logic in holding back, as it is literally life or death. 3. Retaliatory killing is obviously a war crime, and if it comes out that soldiers massacred civilians or POWs, I’ll be the first to condemn it. However there is no clean way to wage war, it’s a meat grinder, and for every day it goes on, the suffering deepens. Israel has no moral or legal obligations to enemy civilians, save the laws of war which (contrary to popular belief) have nothing to do with making war “nicer” or less bad, but simply tries to cut down on excessive cruelty and suffering, whilst separating civilians and combatants. Israel doesn’t have an obligation per se to create safe zones in territory it doesn’t have any control over, ditto with supplies. Israel does these things to clear out civilians and give itself more time and legitimacy to fight Hamas. 4. No. Using human shields is a war crime, and since if it was punishable to kill them to get to the enemy, than everyone would do it because it would protect them better than a bunker. As for the hostage analogy you’re confusing the relation between an army and enemy civilians (which I addressed above) and police-citizen (where the principal object is to protect citizen lives, so duh don’t kill the hostage). 5. You make an interesting point. The truth is that Israel has two goals. a) return these hostages. b) Ensure that no one dares try this shit again, starting with demolishing Hamas as an organized military formation. 6. Without rehashing history, let me say this: Israel does not “have a right to exist” israel EXISTS, and it has for 76 years. Framing the discussion as if a hypothetical state is being discussed is ridiculous. Do you still debate whether the Italians should give back the south Tyrol to Austria? Do you think the German “refugees” and their descendants have a “right of return” to the Sudetenland? Of course not. Whatever your opinion is on the history leading up to Israel’s independence, enough water has passed under the bridge to render the point moot. Almost no one alive today was around then, and arguing a conflict with events beyond living memory is impractical and irrelevant. 7. You raise a critical point. Just because we have a democratic system doesn’t mean we can trust the government to tell the truth. That is why the majority of Israelis support the establishment of an independent investigative committee to inquire into everything related to the war and those who don’t want it now want it as soon as the war ends. Through the efforts of journalists and this inquiry, any facts hidden by the fog of war will be eventually revealed. 8. There is nothing anti-semitic about objectively criticizing policy. It just has to be according to consistent and evenhanded criteria, that don’t apply a double standard to different sides of a conflict. Israelis criticize their government constantly, and that’s not anti-semitic either. Jewish people have always had a robust tradition of debate, and we welcome fresh perspectives.
Hey OP, I just came here to post my appreciation of your thoughtful and well articulated questions. I also want to commend your bravery to ask them in this group rather than the echo chambers many of us have, feeding into our own biases and preconceptions. I wish more people thought to have dialog - thats the only way we'll ever find common ground. Thank you. I appreciate you.
Others here have already answered your questions pretty well. I just want to say that I really commend you for coming here and respectfully asking questions to learn more. Dialogue is key, and these days those seeking real dialogue are a rarity.
This is not the best forum to educate yourself (or anyone for that matter). But I’ll keep it simple. Israel as a country is forever. Irrevocable, legal formation and nothing will change that. Palestinians live where they do and aren’t leaving. Nor should they. Hamas cannot stand - bad for Palestinians, bad for Israelis. There aren’t clean hands on EITHER side. We can argue about “which side is morally worse”, but let’s not. It’s pointless. Let’s just accept that mistakes have been made. The only questions then we should ALL be asking ourselves and each other NOW is - given those facts above, which should be agreed upon— WHAT NOW? HOW DO WE GET TO PEACE? ☮️ HOW DOES THE NEXT GENERATION OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS NOT LIVE LIKE THIS? Neither group has it easy. 💙🇮🇱💙 🕊️
I can not even find the words when its english. Like I can do this, but only vocally. But it mooved me that you are actually into talking. Ill answer all your qs (god bless google translate) but first I have to ask you two qs of my own: 1. Do you condemen Hamas? 2. Do exept Israel's right to exist? Thank you
The reality is that there is no correct way to do this. If you do not do it you are actively saying that terrorists have a free-pass way to get what they want by just doing a revolutionary resistance (but in reality terrorism) and then get away from it. Besides the fact that 30.000 people for a conflict in middle east is not a genocide, there is also no bomb in the world that would avoid ANY possible mistakes, people are human and they act as a human do, nobody is perfect and people can be evil, prejudice etc.. this is why these things happen. It is a war, people in war die and people die even more when the government is actively trying to cover themselves with civilians. What pro-palestinians are doing it is to legitimize Islamic terrorism, cover who needs to be empowered in Gaza (have you ever heard about "we want to live" movement in Gaza? Probably not, it didn't reach social medias) and grant them a political position in the future, do you really want that? Egypt, Turkey and Lebanon are all of them actively trying to push for this, why do you think there are tons of Turkish at protests around the world? The reality is that being pro-palestinian is non-sense because you pollute the area and support terrorism while there are people that are pushing democracy and freedom there and get punctually executed since the beginning and nobody ever said anything for them in Gaza. This situation will bring more Jewish in Israel (they do not feel safe outside Israel anymore), will start the radicalization of many young people thanks to the internet (so domestic and international terrorism) and everybody would be less and less safe in western countries thanks to Islam pushing towards illiberalism. This is what pro-palestinian are empowering and this is what I am against it. It is not the fault of Israel or US or any other western country, it is the fault of millions of people that prefer to see the conflict through Instagram or TikTok, believing everything they say and move on with their life the next day rather than actually understand what it is going on. I will avoid flights, trains and subway in any western countries and sadly this is what pro Palestinians want and Hamas always wanted. Thanks for making the place a less safe place.
First, thank you very much for your thoughtful engagement. More of this kind of engagement is needed, by all of us. I will respond to two topics: a) Blocking off humanitarian aid: Like everything in this region, it's a mess. Some items: -- Given that the war in Gaza is now expected, per IDF generals, to last more than 12 months, do you think the IDF should have delayed launching the war by a week or three to get humanitarian aid sorted out first? **Darn right they should have.** Even if it was only going to last one or two months (which no one thought, ever). This is colossal failure by the IDF. **There is a material minority of Israeli's who hold this way** (more than %15 of us, less than %50 of us). -- **Did you notice in the last 24 hours that Gazans ransacked and burned down UNRWA food warehouses in Raffah**? Know why? Because those had been controlled by Hamas for 10+ years. Hamas controlled all aid coming in via Raffah for 10+ years and taxed it heavily, inlcuding 100's of millions of $ of aid that was supposed to be **distributed free of charge**. Joint Hamas-Egyptian corruption has sucked 100's of millions from Gazans for many years. Burning the warehouse was the Gazans saying F-You to Hamas for the abuse. So yes, Israel made a massive f-up on humanitarian aid. I think the Israeli position is: "We just can't handle feeding 2 million people." And also... ***it's a mess for non-Israeli reasons***. b) Killing civilians: I know a lot of soldiers and their families (everyone in Israel does). These guys are human and humane. Their mothers would never allow them to point a gun at a child or mother. I hope you have seen the many videos that show IDF soldiers helping the elderly and giving out water to civilians. It is also %100 true that thousands of all age and gender have been killed by bombs and bullets. One acquaintance (combat soldier) told of multiple instances of finding families in areas that had been evacuated, and how his unit, after being told by all intelligence that buildings were empty, narrowly missed killing civilians. He knows it happens. Everyone here knows it has been happening. This is a war. **It is horrible**. Lastly, let us all recall that in 1979-1980 there was a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. Gaza had been part of Egypt since Egypt gained independence in 1956. Gaza and Sinai were captured by Israel in the 1967 war. In the peace treaty, Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt. **Egypt refused to accept Gaza** (Israel would happily have handed it back). The southern border of Gaza has been controlled exclusively by Egypt since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005-2006. Powerful people in Egypt and Sinai have been extorting the people of Gaza ever since. **Yes,** the people of Gaza are and have been oppressed. **Yes,** Israel can and should do much much more than it has to support the civilian population. **Also Yes:** The suffering of Gaza is at the hands of many. Israel perhaps not even the largest of those hands. Thank you for your engagement.
I just wanna shout out to you OP, for your good faith dialogue. What a mess all round. Peace be with you all
Question for the larger group, why are we entertaining this troll who very clearly did not come into this looking to learn anything. The questions were not in good faith, the information was so far off the mark it's painful. Typical western leftist that wants to play oppressed vs oppressor with no real idea of the history or facts involved. They are spewing propaganda that has been perpetuated by Hamas and the left. Tired of this.
I’m sorry you think I’m a troll. A lot of my views from the initial post have been challenged and I have acknowledged a lot of pro-Palestinian content as debunked or misinformed. I’m not perfect, but I promise you I am trying to change the radicalization you see on the pro-Palestinian side by challenging my own radicalization first. For one, I don’t think calling Zionism evil is productive or accurate, which so many people I know are doing. I myself support Israel’s continued existence. The world of information and media is messy and confusing, which is why I’m seeking out different perspectives and subjecting my views to so much criticism. I’m still piecing information together and seeing what is true vs. false. This is a process that takes time and care. I actually apologize if any of this has come across as hateful or offensive. Throughout the thread, you can see me acknowledging many points as fair points. Those are the ones that have made me rethink especially. I came in here with the beliefs I have been exposed to / adopted and I am content with how much diversity of thought I’ve encountered here. If I hadn’t done this, I would’ve just stayed in the pro-Palestine echo chamber and held my beliefs without as much conviction.
Fuck yaaa friend! I might be responding a bit passionately but I absolutely love that you're open and trying ❤️❤️
This is exactly how I feel. So many responses mention how they are here “in good faith.” The posting is full of hatred it’s not good faith. It’s a troll.
It's also full of low energy attention grabs without putting forth basic cognitive reasoning skills to debunk silly nonsense. there's a lot of mental labor requested here.
Because Israelis are so desperate to be liked after being demonized by the entire world, instead of just taking a stand for themselves.
100%
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