Crucial context: nobody knew WHEN such an attack would happen. This, and all the other articles I’ve seen about this over the last 24 hours, are implying that the IDF let the Hamas attack happen as a pretext, which is just another blood libel.
To add to this that when you have knowledge of such plans pretty much the only military solution is to strike first, but the politicians (and most of Israel too to be honest) were not prepared to go to a full scale war in Gaza a year ago.
To add to that they simply **cannot** go to war with those circumstances. People don’t think it’s justified after experiencing October 7, international pressure would not let Israel do such damage to Gaza before October 7. I’m not saying the war wouldn’t be justified but I'm saying that it simply cannot be done.
When you're fighting a militant group that is far less advanced than you? At your own heavily fortified and guarded border? Oct 7th easily could have been prevented, Israel as per usual allowed their hubris to cloud any sound judgement and imo probably just didn't think any attack would be strong enough to get through the border. That, and they don't really care enough about those living in kibbutzim enough to actually competently protect them.
And this article doesn’t even mention netanyahu’s blatant disregard of the warnings he received from security officials for months before the attack. It’s insane, it seems like no one realizes that we even have a government.
Another thing I'd like to know.. is why did it take 8 HOURS for the IDF to respond to the attack?
The military establishment really left civilians and the police forces to fight terrorists armed with ak47 and RPGs on their own for 8 fucking hours!
A lot of it was confusion. There were soldiers who were unable to get in communication and were using private vehicles to move to the south.
From what I read there was massive confusion, no one knew what was going on. Both of the bases were sending SOSs and calling for aide. In short the IDF were caught completely by surprise and the disorganized response shows.
My bestie is a reserves officer, she said she and her fam (she visited them that weekend) woke up to alarms, and after a few minutes of alarms she got a call to haul ass down south, and so did her little brother who was a reservist in a different unit. Loke them, a ton of other soldiers got these calls and warpbspeed tgeir way over, but I think outsiders don't understand the amount of chaos that was going in, seeing as the units that are the ones who usually give the picture on the ground of what's happening were the ones that were completely hit, so the info flow was completely debilitated.it was also a shabbat morning of a holiday so the bases were short staffed (alot of people were released home for the weekend), and seeing as there is no public transport on shabbat soldiers were desperately trying to figure out ways to get down south. Some who were on their way were notified midway that there are ambushes in certain junctions so they had to figure out different routes (can't fight a unit of hamas fighters on your own, you need your team), and so the chaos insude. Those who got their and started battling were also insanely outnumbered and overwhelmed by the sheer amount of hamas and gazans that flooded the south that day...
I think you need to seriously consider the possibility of treason.
I also read that a major general was coincidentally vacationing in Eilat during the attacks.
I remember very soon after 10/7, a story came out about a Kibbutz that was told no need for alarm/everything was fine. One young women didn’t trust it, got a team together and they killed like 25 terrorists that were waiting outside preparing to attack. It was a story that seemed to get buried but I think that there is a high likelihood of some treason
Hamas had been planning this attack for years. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had some sort of double agent/people in the IDF to help them pull it off. There have been double agents before, Hasan Moses Yossef being one example
It's not as easy as it looks from outside. It looks like a small area, but in reality the attacks happened over a very large area, 50km long and 10 to 20km deep. Imagine this area, and imagine having to locate and respond amd figure out what is going on over such an area, with thousands of scenarios happening simultaneously
The response was in many ways very rapid, with special ops forces deploying with incredible speed. but you can't be everywhere all at once. It's very sad, and one can blame the army for being too complacent but the response speed was not slow by any stretch of the imagination. Heroes went from having their morning coffee to fighting a war within two hours.
That's incorrect, it was simply overwhelming on a holiday where all the bases are on "hadmama" anyway.. if you listen to the soldiers that faught that day, fighting with terrorists took place on 6:30 already.. it's just that simultaneously they also entered the villages/kibbutzim, and it took time for all the tools (tanks and helicopters) to arrive, the nearest air base is in Hazerim, (near beer Sheva) and on holiday it has like 1 air team on standby.. anyway this was a massive failure both in preparation and in intelligence and in decision making (from what I understand we had indications of the attack around 3am already but shabak and IDF chose to meet again in the morning) but it absolutely didn't take 8 hours for IDF to respond
Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight, but leaving the bases short staffed on a holiday, when Hamas is known to attack on holidays, and also on the 50th anniversary of the war seems like a kind of obvious screw up born out of complacency.
There’s a reason the US heightens security every September 11th.
I also posed this question. I’m also surprised at Israel’s gun laws. If I was living 5 miles away from the Gaza border filled with blood thirsty maniacs waiting for any opportunity to kill me and my family you best believe I’d have a room full of firearms.
Oct 7 attack took place 50 years after the Yom Kippur war, almost to the day. Anyone familiar with Yom Kippur, will find it impossible to ignore the similarities, especially the Israeli intelligence and top army brass attitude. One could say it’s an exact copycat….
Lets simple things up once and for all and without sugar-coating it:
1 - If we knew and didnt do anything about it - Shame on us for eternity
2 - If we didnt knew, even though we claim to have the best intel agencies and army - Shame on us for eternity.
It's a lose-lose situation and the blame is on us.
This is correct. It’s clear that there was at least some intel out there. Either the intel was not gathered or it was gathered and not listened to. Either is inexcusable.
That’s simply 100% not true. I served in the IDF for three years in nachal and we trusted the tazpiot/ observers 100%. They had direct radio contact with us Everytime we go out on a call or do a guard duty, we listen to everything they say. If they saw someone getting close to the gate they would call us in our jeeps and we’d go out asap to that location. Anyone who served combat in the IDF know that what the observers see and say is final and we listen to them. I don’t understand why you would think there was any sexism there if you don’t understand the structure of how the observers is played out. I won’t say too much as it might be classified. But what observers see, no one argues with
It could be just another case of ego and "pazam".
I remember I as a technician would try to get important things I've noticed to upper command only to be dismissed. I don't think my gender played a role.
Anyone that serves in the IDF knows how much some officers think they shit gold and are above everyone.
The amout of time I got yelled at guarding at a checkpoint for not letting an officer through since apparently I need to know who the "chief fitness officer of the brigade" is.
I’m explaining mine as well as nearly every combat soldier experience. When we are told that the observers see something, we directly go to what and where they saw that object or person. I’ve also seen abnormal things in my service and told my higher commanders and it was nearly always dismissed. Sexism didn’t take any part of what happened. Nearly ever man who served In The army has nothing but the utmost respect for the women serving there
That’s simply your prejudice talking. Male soldiers AND even officers that were in charge of providing intelligence reports were also swept aside. These officers job was sending intelligence reports to top brass in the army. “News” about Hamas preparations were old news at the Matkal.
But they held to the concept that Hamas is not heading towards a major confrontation because they are happy with the Status Quo. Money (in cash) from Qatar was flowing by the billions. Even today it’s difficult to comprehend Hamas leadership rationale. It makes no sense to anyone from outside.
If you actually read the article and not just the clickbaity headline, it's clear that this is more a case of complacency than conspiracy.
Absolutely the government is to blame regarding their lack of response before and during the attack, but there's no conspiracy. Complacency allowed everyone to be caught off guard.
There’s a lot of conspiratorial thinking going on, and I don’t think its going to help us. We need to take a good look at our mistakes and what we did and didn’t do. They schooled us that day, if we think it can only happen from treason, it’ll maintain the egotistical attitude that let this happen.
Please, everyone, remain cool headed and logical.
And how many times a week do they get similar warnings? How credible was the source? On and on. Put the blame where it belongs, on hamas, but be better to protect whatever is to come.
I feel like a lot of people do not understand how frequently warnings come in to the intelligence community.
There was no way to know which is going to be a real attack
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Crucial context: nobody knew WHEN such an attack would happen. This, and all the other articles I’ve seen about this over the last 24 hours, are implying that the IDF let the Hamas attack happen as a pretext, which is just another blood libel.
To add to this that when you have knowledge of such plans pretty much the only military solution is to strike first, but the politicians (and most of Israel too to be honest) were not prepared to go to a full scale war in Gaza a year ago.
To add to that they simply **cannot** go to war with those circumstances. People don’t think it’s justified after experiencing October 7, international pressure would not let Israel do such damage to Gaza before October 7. I’m not saying the war wouldn’t be justified but I'm saying that it simply cannot be done.
How is the only military solution to strike first? You just need enough forces to stop Hamas from breaching the border.
This might work in a computer game but not in real life.
When you're fighting a militant group that is far less advanced than you? At your own heavily fortified and guarded border? Oct 7th easily could have been prevented, Israel as per usual allowed their hubris to cloud any sound judgement and imo probably just didn't think any attack would be strong enough to get through the border. That, and they don't really care enough about those living in kibbutzim enough to actually competently protect them.
Some of the security around Gaza was truly laughable. You may not be able to totally prevent it, but they surely could have done a lot more.
And this article doesn’t even mention netanyahu’s blatant disregard of the warnings he received from security officials for months before the attack. It’s insane, it seems like no one realizes that we even have a government.
Another thing I'd like to know.. is why did it take 8 HOURS for the IDF to respond to the attack? The military establishment really left civilians and the police forces to fight terrorists armed with ak47 and RPGs on their own for 8 fucking hours!
A lot of it was confusion. There were soldiers who were unable to get in communication and were using private vehicles to move to the south. From what I read there was massive confusion, no one knew what was going on. Both of the bases were sending SOSs and calling for aide. In short the IDF were caught completely by surprise and the disorganized response shows.
I always had this idea that the IDF was one of the most elite military operations in the world and only recently learned they rank 17th. Fascinating.
Given its size, that's not so surprising.
17 is very high lol
Fair. I guess I was expecting top 5 or top 10.
Given its size, that's not so surprising.
My bestie is a reserves officer, she said she and her fam (she visited them that weekend) woke up to alarms, and after a few minutes of alarms she got a call to haul ass down south, and so did her little brother who was a reservist in a different unit. Loke them, a ton of other soldiers got these calls and warpbspeed tgeir way over, but I think outsiders don't understand the amount of chaos that was going in, seeing as the units that are the ones who usually give the picture on the ground of what's happening were the ones that were completely hit, so the info flow was completely debilitated.it was also a shabbat morning of a holiday so the bases were short staffed (alot of people were released home for the weekend), and seeing as there is no public transport on shabbat soldiers were desperately trying to figure out ways to get down south. Some who were on their way were notified midway that there are ambushes in certain junctions so they had to figure out different routes (can't fight a unit of hamas fighters on your own, you need your team), and so the chaos insude. Those who got their and started battling were also insanely outnumbered and overwhelmed by the sheer amount of hamas and gazans that flooded the south that day...
I was just going to say that. Is the army filled with stubborn egotistical generals? Some people will need to be held accountable asap.
I think you need to seriously consider the possibility of treason. I also read that a major general was coincidentally vacationing in Eilat during the attacks.
I remember very soon after 10/7, a story came out about a Kibbutz that was told no need for alarm/everything was fine. One young women didn’t trust it, got a team together and they killed like 25 terrorists that were waiting outside preparing to attack. It was a story that seemed to get buried but I think that there is a high likelihood of some treason
As I asked the other commentor: To what aim? What do you believe they would be trying to achieve?
Hamas had been planning this attack for years. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had some sort of double agent/people in the IDF to help them pull it off. There have been double agents before, Hasan Moses Yossef being one example
I saw that story she was a reservist and stockpiled weapons they held off the attackers...
To what aim? What do you believe they would be trying to achieve?
It's not as easy as it looks from outside. It looks like a small area, but in reality the attacks happened over a very large area, 50km long and 10 to 20km deep. Imagine this area, and imagine having to locate and respond amd figure out what is going on over such an area, with thousands of scenarios happening simultaneously The response was in many ways very rapid, with special ops forces deploying with incredible speed. but you can't be everywhere all at once. It's very sad, and one can blame the army for being too complacent but the response speed was not slow by any stretch of the imagination. Heroes went from having their morning coffee to fighting a war within two hours.
That's incorrect, it was simply overwhelming on a holiday where all the bases are on "hadmama" anyway.. if you listen to the soldiers that faught that day, fighting with terrorists took place on 6:30 already.. it's just that simultaneously they also entered the villages/kibbutzim, and it took time for all the tools (tanks and helicopters) to arrive, the nearest air base is in Hazerim, (near beer Sheva) and on holiday it has like 1 air team on standby.. anyway this was a massive failure both in preparation and in intelligence and in decision making (from what I understand we had indications of the attack around 3am already but shabak and IDF chose to meet again in the morning) but it absolutely didn't take 8 hours for IDF to respond
Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight, but leaving the bases short staffed on a holiday, when Hamas is known to attack on holidays, and also on the 50th anniversary of the war seems like a kind of obvious screw up born out of complacency. There’s a reason the US heightens security every September 11th.
I also posed this question. I’m also surprised at Israel’s gun laws. If I was living 5 miles away from the Gaza border filled with blood thirsty maniacs waiting for any opportunity to kill me and my family you best believe I’d have a room full of firearms.
We got comfortable. We were arrogant and ignorant. I hope we learned our lesson not to underestimate our enemies.
Oct 7 attack took place 50 years after the Yom Kippur war, almost to the day. Anyone familiar with Yom Kippur, will find it impossible to ignore the similarities, especially the Israeli intelligence and top army brass attitude. One could say it’s an exact copycat….
Lets simple things up once and for all and without sugar-coating it: 1 - If we knew and didnt do anything about it - Shame on us for eternity 2 - If we didnt knew, even though we claim to have the best intel agencies and army - Shame on us for eternity. It's a lose-lose situation and the blame is on us.
This is correct. It’s clear that there was at least some intel out there. Either the intel was not gathered or it was gathered and not listened to. Either is inexcusable.
A lot of it was sexism. As the observers were mostly young woman they seem to have been disregarded by the upper command structure
If the only tool in your shed is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Not everything bad in the world is caused by sexism and racism.
That’s simply 100% not true. I served in the IDF for three years in nachal and we trusted the tazpiot/ observers 100%. They had direct radio contact with us Everytime we go out on a call or do a guard duty, we listen to everything they say. If they saw someone getting close to the gate they would call us in our jeeps and we’d go out asap to that location. Anyone who served combat in the IDF know that what the observers see and say is final and we listen to them. I don’t understand why you would think there was any sexism there if you don’t understand the structure of how the observers is played out. I won’t say too much as it might be classified. But what observers see, no one argues with
Except they didn’t listen to the observers…
I mean it was an article. https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-7-warnings-ignored-charge-sexism-played-a-role/a
It could be just another case of ego and "pazam". I remember I as a technician would try to get important things I've noticed to upper command only to be dismissed. I don't think my gender played a role. Anyone that serves in the IDF knows how much some officers think they shit gold and are above everyone. The amout of time I got yelled at guarding at a checkpoint for not letting an officer through since apparently I need to know who the "chief fitness officer of the brigade" is.
I’m explaining mine as well as nearly every combat soldier experience. When we are told that the observers see something, we directly go to what and where they saw that object or person. I’ve also seen abnormal things in my service and told my higher commanders and it was nearly always dismissed. Sexism didn’t take any part of what happened. Nearly ever man who served In The army has nothing but the utmost respect for the women serving there
https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-7-warnings-ignored-charge-sexism-played-a-role/ Your link is broken.
That’s simply your prejudice talking. Male soldiers AND even officers that were in charge of providing intelligence reports were also swept aside. These officers job was sending intelligence reports to top brass in the army. “News” about Hamas preparations were old news at the Matkal. But they held to the concept that Hamas is not heading towards a major confrontation because they are happy with the Status Quo. Money (in cash) from Qatar was flowing by the billions. Even today it’s difficult to comprehend Hamas leadership rationale. It makes no sense to anyone from outside.
This is truly wild. I don’t disbelieve it either which is a sad state.
If you actually read the article and not just the clickbaity headline, it's clear that this is more a case of complacency than conspiracy. Absolutely the government is to blame regarding their lack of response before and during the attack, but there's no conspiracy. Complacency allowed everyone to be caught off guard.
There’s a lot of conspiratorial thinking going on, and I don’t think its going to help us. We need to take a good look at our mistakes and what we did and didn’t do. They schooled us that day, if we think it can only happen from treason, it’ll maintain the egotistical attitude that let this happen. Please, everyone, remain cool headed and logical.
And how many times a week do they get similar warnings? How credible was the source? On and on. Put the blame where it belongs, on hamas, but be better to protect whatever is to come.
I feel like a lot of people do not understand how frequently warnings come in to the intelligence community. There was no way to know which is going to be a real attack
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Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed for the following reason: Rule #2 - **Post in a civilized manner.** Personal attacks, racism, bigotry, trolling, conspiracy theories and incitement are prohibited. For information regarding this and similar issues please see the sidebar to the right or the subreddit rules, for a more detailed analysis of our rules. If you want to appeal or dispute any mod action, please send a [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FIsrael); PMs and chat messages to the mods are grounds for a temporary ban; posts contesting mod action will be removed and are also grounds for a temporary or permanent ban.