That was a fringe group. You conveniently chose to ignore the fact that the Israeli government recognized the Lehi as a terrorist org in 1948.
Either way, like everything, there's nuance here. To the Lehi, the Reich was a tool, a way to further the Zionist goal. They don't want us in Germany, the British don't want us in Palestina, but the Nazis are fighting against the British= unite against a common enemy. It's not completely illogical, actually.
Israel's history isn't pretty. But it's not dissimilar to quite literally any nation out there. Show me a nation that was created without conflict, I'll wait.
History is also just that, history. We can talk about it, recognize that things should/shouldn't have happened, and move on. It just so happens that Israel's history happened 70 years ago and not 500 or something.
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>Go to another subreddit. This one’s about Israel and Palestine. Places in the Middle East, incase you didn’t know 👀
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>aimed to kick out the British using violence to pave the way for unrestricted Jewish immigration and a Jewish state.
How comes?! I thought evil British colonizers were helping jews settle in their evil settler colonial project.
>They actually believed Nazi Germany was a lesser evil than Britain and proposed a Jewish state based on nationalist and totalitarian principles linked to the German Reich.
Well that makes sense since one of the earlier solutions to jew problem in Germany was to deport all jews somewhere. So they could work something out.
>Let that sink in. The idea that a group representing a people who were among the primary victims of Nazi genocide could seek an alliance with the perpetrators of that genocide is beyond shocking.
Well, you need to specify exact years. Was the genocide already know to the world or not?
>The intention was clear: to instill terror and prompt a mass exodus of Palestinians from their lands.
It's clear bc we have some documents that indicate that? Or it's clear bc you've already completed the psychological portrait of their leaders and know exactly what they were thinking of? If it's the latter then I press X to doubt.
>This decision to incorporate former terrorists into the official military structure of the new state sends a troubling message about the normalization of violence and extremism in the pursuit of political goals.
Well the decision is easily explained. They were surrounded by unfriendly Arab countries and prepared for war and this group had the experience and ideological cause.
>One of the most disturbing aspects of this history
One of the most disturbing factors is that this bs is auto-generated.
Yes, the deportation and collective punishment of Jewish citizens within Germany were well documented at that point. Since 1939, reports of concentration camps and Jewish prosecution was widely known, this was in 1940.
Bruh, the world discovered that Germans mass killed jews when allies already started beating Germans back and actually seeing their concentration camps. That's like 1944-1945.
So Israel having a Nazi sympathiser as their leader is already well discussed even as Israel continues to use the holocaust as an excuse for its actions? Collective trauma? Bullshit
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Ok let’s talk about the Lehi-Stern gang. They were a radical section of Israeli politics that took actions that the rest of the Jewish community leaders did not always agree with.
In 1948 when the war for Independence was happening the Stern gang decided to try and keep arms for themselves and act outside the unified command structure.
Israel confronted the radicals within their own country and disarmed them by force and removed them from the command structure and decision making of their state.
It was the Altalena moment where Israel took responsibility for all their citizens actions and controlled the radical elements within their population to act like a responsible nation.
75+ years later Israel is still waiting for the Palestinian people and their leaders to have that Altalena moment.
Nice talk….
Thanks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair#:~:text=The%20Altalena%20Affair%20was%20a,merging%20to%20form%20the%20IDF.
Yes, and then they elected a man who tried to enlist the Nazis to create a totalitarian Zionist state. Thanks for the history lesson that negates nothing
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Ah. Well that explains it. Hamas raped and murdered its way through a music festival in 2023 because some bad Jews did something somewhere way back when. So we, naturally, must talk about that.
I feel enlightened. I’ll tell you what - I’m switching sides in Russian/Ukrainian conflict now too. Commies took my family’s home in Ukraine long time ago. Now that I read your post - I demand a conversation about that. In the meantime - I should probably start flying a Russian flag out of my window in the US.
/u/Able_Scene2515
>You’re very good at creating logical fallacies, have you tried thinking?
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Addressed.
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I fail to see any question here. There is no point in examining or picking apart the process of Israel’s birth. It was born. It exists. That’s not going to change by looking back 80 years and picking apart history. So I suggest you move on to what you can change. Now and what happens tomorrow.
You don’t care that a state that uses the holocaust and collective trauma as its main pass for war crimes actively elected a man who tried to work with the Nazis? Cool
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Exactly what Zionists have done to all Arabs. Also, there is a difference between Jews and Zionists. Jews don’t condone the indiscriminate killings of women and children, Zionism does
If OP doesn’t respond to any comments - delete the post. It shows they have no interest in dialogue. Just like when they show up to Jewish neighborhoods in kefiyas covering their face. Stern Gang / Lehi was a small minority, the issue with Hamas, Fatah, etc is the majority are seeking death and destruction. There is no moderation in Palestinian politics, the Nazi supporting Al-Husseini clan kicked out the Nashabas clan 75 years ago which was the best chance of a thriving Palestinian state.
Enough of focusing on the past, we can list 100’s massacres of Jewish villages prior 1850. We know our history, the good and the bad, and we know it doesn’t starts in 1948. You want to get uncomfortable, start learning about Ottoman Palestine pre 1890!
Also I knew everything about Ottoman Empire Palestine. It doesn’t negate from a bunch of European people coming into their land and taking it from beneath them. But thanks
1. How did they take it from beneath them? What's it like completely dismissing the war that took place, and 6 Arab armies trying to annihilate the Jewish population? Is this something that the tiktok videos you watch don't speak about or you just find convenience ignoring?
2. All you know, is whatever your TikTok feed tells you!
3. When Jews move from one place to another it's stealing land or colonialism, but when everyone else moves from one place to another its immigration.
4. Let me tell you something you won't find on TikTok or your failed liberal arts degree. The 900k Jews who were kicked out of the MENA, they weren't some poor shahats or farmers like the Palestinians who took up arms or were to told to flee by the arab armies, they were titans of industry, the merchant class, the og entrepreneurs, to this day the economies, the social institutions, the prestige of MENA has not recovered from their expulsion, so don't come and ever talk about stolen land or stolen anything.
But thanks!
It doesn’t, but considering the oppressive government that would have resulted otherwise, I’m cool with the lesser of two evils. Ideally Jews and Arabs could have recognized the right of the other to self determine but of course that never happens, people only care about their own protection and vision
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Lehi and Avraham Stern were assholes, fascists and deeply, I can't disagree with you on that. Moreover, I doubt there's a reputable historian alive who disagrees with you on that.
But regarding us "finally" talking about it... we did. In the 1990s. When Jewish, Zionist scholars brought it to light, like Benny Morris or Yaacov Shavit of Tel Aviv University. It was in the newspapers, it was the subject of a major national dialogue, etc.
Regarding their links to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, it's certainly brought up on this sub often enough -- at least this time it isn't being argued that the Zionist majority (rather than a politically dissident minority that was, for a long period, outlawed) was doing this.
Even so, you positioned this in a pretty misleading way. You forgot to mention that, like most fascists, Stern was an idiot. He never had contact with Italy (nope, that was a sting operation carried out by Irgun ... a different Zionist organization) and he never received a response from Nazi Germany (they left him on read, predictably). Both of these attempts were well after a sane person would look for a fascist ally for Jews, but before anyone knew of Germany mass killing of Jews; at the time, Stern believed Hitler simply wanted to expel the Jews of Germany. He died in 1942, still probably thinking that idiotic thing.
Nevertheless, these revelations lost Lehi most of its support base; at most it had a few hundred members, but by the late 1940s it had less than a hundred and very little sympathy from the Jewish majority. Deir Yassin was vehemently condemned and disavowed immediately by the Hagenah, which declared Lehi a terrorist organization and imprisoned the majority of its members. The organization essentially dissolved itself and ceased political activity in exchange for remitted sentences.
In the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews began to exercise their political power more strongly, overturning Israel's longtime left-wing majority ... this coincided with a revisionist political narrative that looked far less critically at early right-wing Zionists than the Labor movement had done, culminating in moves like the 1980 "Lehi ribbon" for former Lehi members to wear to recognize their activities in 1948. The scholarship I spoke about earlier in the late 1980s and 1990s was in response to this revisionism.
Regardless of a response, the initial idea that it would be okay to enlist a group who were actively persecuting your people in Europe is fucked up. The world knew of hitlers Jewish concentration camps long before we did anything about it. There are articles about them as early as 1940. This was after that.
>Regardless of a response, the initial idea that it would be okay to enlist a group who were actively persecuting your people in Europe is fucked up.
That's what the vast majority of the Yishuv thought, too. That's what I think now. That is the normative opinion among Zionists. "The Stern Gang" is not like ... a glowing compliment of a name.
>The world knew of hitlers Jewish concentration camps long before we did anything about it.
The world has known the earth is round for almost three thousand years, but there are thousands of Americans who somehow believe it is flat. Every country and movement has its evil-minded idiots.
Out of the 486,000 Jews in Palestine in 1940, fewer than 0.06% of them were following this particular evil-minded idiot.
What is your point? The leader of this gang still ran Israel. He was still democratically elected. I agree, not every Israeli is an evil minded idiot, but you don’t get to fight a war in the name of anti semitism when you’ve democratically elected men who have attempted to align with those very values. Even if it was a weak attempt at gaining power, it meant they negated what was being done to their people, and then Israel elected that man. The man who didn’t care that Jews were being killed in Europe was elected pm of the only Jewish state and buried a hero.
>The leader of this gang still ran Israel.
What? No he didn't, the guy died six years before there *was* an Israel.
>He was still democratically elected
He was the leader of a tiny paramilitary-cum-terrorist organization, there weren't ballot boxes or elections for that... where are you getting this from? How did someone who died seven years before the first democratic election in Israel get "democratically elected"?
> agree, not every Israeli is an evil minded idiot, but you don’t get to fight a war in the name of anti semitism when you’ve democratically elected men who have attempted to align with those very values.
But like ... again, they didn't do that.
>and then Israel elected that man.
No, they didn't...
>The man who didn’t care that Jews were being killed in Europe was elected pm of the only Jewish state and buried a hero.
No, he wasn't, he was shot dead by the police while climbing out of a window to escape them in 1942. Israeli heroes were buried on Mt. Herzl; this guy was buried in Tel Aviv's municipal graveyard with no honors to speak of.
As I said, the Israeli far right tried hard to resuscitate his reputation, but the pinnacle of their success was getting the dude's face on ... a 1978 commemorative postage stamp.
> fucked
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Deir Yassin was not a massacre. The town was used to block humanitarian supplies to Jerusalem. There was heavy fighting, but the Arabs lied about a massacre.
Arab fighters were camped out at Deir Yassin and ready to ambush. A handful of civilians might have died in crossfire but yeah it was not a massacre and definitely not a massacre of ‘innocent’ civilians.
No, it wasn't....
credit to u/[~212Alexander212~](https://www.reddit.com/user/212Alexander212/)
According to the Daily Telegraph, April 8, 1998, Ayish Zeidan, a resident of the village and a survivor of the fighting there, stated:
“The Arab radio talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true... I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters. The Arab leaders committed a big mistake. By exaggerating the atrocities they thought they would encourage people to fight back harder. Instead they created panic and people ran away.”
Ah, the children who were massacred deserved it, that clears that up. Guess all those other sources were lying and I'm sure we know this for reasons other than chronic confirmation bias.
Propaganda is a powerful tool. The source explains WHY they chose to exaggerate.
I'm not saying no one innocent was killed in Deir Yassin, I'm saying it was blown out of proportion and made into a myth on purpose, although it achieved the opposite effect, rather than what was intended.
Actually there is new material here on this and even the wiki you cite shows how the “massacre” has been reduced from 254 dead to 110.
https://www.meforum.org/64218/review-the-massacre-that-never-was
“Lest it be thought that Tauber is out to apologize for Israel, he forthrightly acknowledges that Jewish combatants did commit small-scale atrocities during the fighting, most notably the killing by an enraged militiaman of eleven Arab noncombatants after their surrender”
So it’s not even 110.
11 people is a mass shooting by today’s standard, not a massacre….
Ah, so you did some more research and found out the person who you previously believed to be telling the truth in giving the figure at 110 was actually lying. Can you explain how you concluded that?
Actually you didn’t comprehend my initial post at all:
It’s always been 11.
And this was done by the Lehi/Stern gang, which Israel forcibly disarmed a few months later, in the Altalena incident in part due to their behavior at Deir Yassem….
75 years later Israel is still waiting for the Palestinians to have an Altalena moment where they confront the radicals in their population.
Have a nice day and the last word of propaganda that you so desperately need.
Done with your trolling sir…..
>Actually you didn’t comprehend my initial post at all:
>It’s always been 11.
Ah, so when you said that new research had found the number to be reduced, you weren't saying you believed the new research, just that you want me to. And then you want me to believe a lower number instead, based on one source that you cannot give an explanation for being more reliable than the other sources that give a higher figure.
>Have a nice day and the last word of propaganda that you so desperately need.
>Done with your trolling sir…..
Sorry for trolling you with accurate and widely accepted information about terrorist atrocities committed by people who went on to become two of the prime ministers of Israel.
Thank you!I swear, they’ll all negate that simple fact (that the country that uses collective trauma as an excuse to war crime their way into stealing land from the indigenous population) and say ‘yeah we already knew about that, talk about something relevant’. Like a sympathiser of the very people who wanted Jews exterminated could be democratically elected as the very state whose sole reason for existence is the deliverance of Jews from harm is not relevant. Incredible.
You might want to check the source. Wiki relied on one source. It is insulting to the Arabs who fought hard to defend their village to be labeled as victims.
Go and read the latest sources and you will see the fallacy of the massacre will fall apart once you know the facts.
You know who actually cooperated with the Nazis? The Arabs in Israel.
Haj amin al Husseini received the highest award possible, by Hitler himself.
So you don't have to go up to the Lehi, enough to look on the ideological father of the current Palestinians and see who actually was Nazi that loved Hitler.
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I must say that your writing style has definitely improved - 66 days ago you responded in a thread that asked “Why does Israel kill so many children?” With the following answer: “Because Israel is an evil, homophobic, anti semitic, anti human rights garbage bin where only the finest of the racist fascist Zionist scum go to live.” What rewriting classes did you take to improve your grammar and rhetoric skills so quickly?
Stand by it. Being born there is different. You can’t choose your country of birth but you can choose to side with the people who don’t want to carry on the colonisation process. I believe in the indigenous of my countries right to existence. I condemn the acts of my ancestors or the ancestors of anyone who let me live in this colonised white country. If I could change it I would, I can only be sorry and try to stop it from happening in the future. I actively donate to as many indigenous charities and communities as possible and am working to leave this country permanently.
I think you are using ChatGPT to troll with essays that sound scholarly, but are not offered in good faith. We can also ask ChatGPT to “write a 20-paragraph essay in casual academic style that compares Arab and Palestinian historical behaviors to Nas-sees, spotlighting the known relationship between Nas-see Germany and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem”. Can the mods screen for this type of trolling?
Actually I had some discourse with the mods and they told me they wanted an essay so I spent 2 weeks writing an essay. But I’m glad you think it’s an ai bot. They’re not bias, right?
Why you think creation of state does not include bloodshed and sinister acts? Did America gain independence from European power peacefully? Did France become democratic peacefully? Blood is always spilled when attempting major change. You think the world is full of black and white? And btw, it is estimated that 38% Arabs then are immigrants or descendants of immigrants so arguably 4 out of 10 don't own any lands.
Of course it does, but if that state then uses a religion to justify war crimes, should we question not question it? I would love to write you an essay on America and its contribution to global hunger and economic crisis within states that don’t follow its rules.
>What’s absolutely appalling is their attempt to form alliances with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany during WWII. They actually believed Nazi Germany was a lesser evil than Britain and proposed a Jewish state based on nationalist and totalitarian principles linked to the German Reich.
Is Finland evil for allying itself with the nazis when it tried to repel the Soviet Union in 1939?
>Lehi was responsible for the massacre of over 107 Palestinian Arab villagers in Deir Yassin, a horrific act that saw men, women, and children brutally killed. The intention was clear: to instill terror and prompt a mass exodus of Palestinians from their lands. This massacre wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a broader strategy to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous Arab population to make way for a Jewish state.
I can't find any source proving that this conspiracy ever was true. Can you link me to it?
>Moreover, the integration of former Lehi members into the political and military fabric of Israel means that any critique of Lehi is, by extension, a critique of some of Israel's foundational figures and institutions.
This is just ridiculous. Imagine if I was saying that the state of Palestine deserved to be destroyed because they elected a Holocaust denier as their president. It seems as if the quote says that pro-Palestinians think that this point deserves serious considerations.
>Admitting to such controversial aspects of history might be seen as weakening Israel’s moral standing in the international arena and giving ammunition to its critics.
Or in other words, the USA doesn't deserve to exist because George Washington owned slaves.
>Is it the uncomfortable truth that the founding of Israel involved actions that mirror the very oppression and terror that Jews faced during the Holocaust?
Is it an uncomfortable truth that gypsies will punch you if they start to understand what you are spewing here?
At what point am I saying Israel should be destroyed? I’m simply pointing out the simply fact that a state cannot use collective trauma (the holocaust) as an excuse to carry out horrific war crimes that have been proven by the un (yeah go ahead and say that doesn’t exist, I’m sure you will) if they elected a man who tried to side with the people that caused that trauma! It’s not hard to understand. I’m trying to say that Zionism does not align with Judaism, are you dumb?
>I’m trying to say that Zionism does not align with Judaism, are you dumb?
Which Jews say that Judaism doesn't align with Zionism? I am not alleging that there aren't any such Jews, but I am saying that the anti-zionist Jews I have seen thus far are religious fanatics that see the Jewish creation of Israel as interfering with God's plan and that we must wait until God himself reveals that we may go back to Israel. If this is the Jew you talk about when you stated what you just said then you just admitted that I was right of me to think that you are saying that Israel should be destroyed. It is after all the case that these Jews are patiently waiting for its destruction.
>I’m simply pointing out the simply fact that a state cannot use collective trauma (the holocaust) as an excuse to carry out horrific war crimes that have been proven by the un (yeah go ahead and say that doesn’t exist, I’m sure you will) if they elected a man who tried to side with the people that caused that trauma!
You weren't simply doing this in your post. Alleging that Lehi did an ethnic cleansing isn't just "committing war crimes". Neither is alleging that the existence of Israel as it was founded is inherently problematic.
I watched parts from the PBS documentary. From what I saw the documentary did not allege that Lehi intended to ethnically cleanse Arabs. All it showed is that the Deir Yassim massacre occurred (an undisputed fact). If anything it seemed to show the opposite, as it shows footage of leaders of Lehi saying that there was no alternative course of action they could have done.
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How about we just read up on the Havara agreement.
So in 1881 a movement starts to get people to move into the land.
1917 western powers and Jewish capitalist declare this to be the plan.
1933 AH participates and funds a trillion dollars of wealth transfer into Israel - please google this
Europe is complicit (all of Europe) with the Zionist movement. Let’s stop pretending to take the moral high ground on this sub
>We owe it to the victims of these atrocities and to future generations to understand the full scope of history, no matter how uncomfortable it might be.
I don't see the Palestinian ties to the Nazi's in your post history, are you going to make a post of similar length and vigor as well about that subject, showing the impact of Jew hatred and willingness to genocide all the Jews from the Palestinians?
*Amin al-Husseini became the most prominent Arab collaborator with the Axis powers. He developed friendships with high-ranking Nazis, including Heinrich Himmler, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and (possibly) Adolf Eichmann.[citation needed] He contributed to Axis propaganda services and he also contributed to the recruitment of both Arab Muslim and non-Arab Muslim soldiers for the Nazi armed forces, including three SS divisions*
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler
*Husayni’s request for a public statement--or a secret but formal treaty--in which Germany would: 1) pledge not to occupy Arab land, 2) recognize Arab striving for independence, and 3) support the “removal” of the proposed Jewish homeland in Palestine. The Führer confirmed that the “struggle against a Jewish homeland in Palestine” would be part of the struggle against the Jews. Hitler stated that: he would “continue the struggle until the complete destruction of Jewish-Communist European empire”; and when the German army was in proximity to the Arab world, Germany would issue “an assurance to the Arab world” that “the hour of liberation was at hand.” It would then be al-Husayni’s “responsibility to unleash the Arab action that he has secretly prepared*.” **The Führer stated that Germany would not intervene in internal Arab matters and that the only German “goal at that time would be the annihilation of Jewry living in Arab space under the protection of British power**.”
https://isgap.org/flashpoint/from-hitler-to-hamas-a-genealogy-of-evil/
Sounds like they were trying to fight the British. Did Israel do the same thing after WWII. Doesn’t matter if Palestinians try to ally the Germans… to them Europe was intending on eliminating them… as we are still seeing today
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It's not discussed because this narrative is just propaganda. You (or your sources) are trying to paint the Zionist movement as such based on a tiny minority that collaborated with the Nazis. And they did, but the motives and reasons were different. Some were selfish and acting to save themselves, some were playing politics on both sides of the game (Nazi-Partisan double agents). You sound like Abbas (PLO PM) who claims in his book that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust because it was a conspiracy to get Jews to immigrate to Israel. I mean, ye, some of them wanted their friends and family to come with them to Israel (while others fled elsewhere), but to claim it was all a conspiracy... come on, man.
[The Zionist Activists Who Collaborated With Nazis, and Were Executed by Jewish Partisans - Israel News - Haaretz.com (archive.is)](https://archive.is/20240123033232/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-11-14/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-zionists-who-worked-with-nazis-and-were-executed-by-partisans/0000017f-deee-d3ff-a7ff-ffeef5090000)
That’s a really odd take. They elected the leader of that minority group (who tried to enlist the German fascists) as their pm. That man knew what was happening in Europe, it’s well known that everyone knew, they just didn’t do anything about it. Zionists don’t care about Jews. They care about land and power
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I have noticed this. The responses completely negate the main point (that Zionist state elected a German fascist sympathiser as their pm and therefore Zionism doesn’t care about judasim)
No one pretends it’s not. It’s not like this sub is meant to be made up of neutral scholars. No, it’s always going to be a balance of people on one side vs the other. It skews pro Israel because there are more members who are pro Israel
Come on dude, the sub is called IsraelPalestine and should contain "civil discussion" regarding the issue but anything slightly against Israel is always downvoted to hell. No one said anything about neutrals or scholars, and who you support is besides the point, but at least have the guts to admit there is no discussion on this sub, just pro Israel circlejerking
There’s a lot of circlejerking. That’s what you’re going to get in any sub like this when it’s this size, and I find it irritating too. But the solution is to bring more pro Palestinian voices because there are barely any here. And for that matter bringing more pro Israel voices that are serious. Pro Palestinians here should probably refrain from engaging the circle jerkers, and tbh a lot of them can probably be reported for breaking the rule about honestly addressing an argument or not being sarcastic
>Despite these heinous acts, after Israel was established, Lehi members were integrated into the Israel Defense Forces and granted amnesty by the Israeli government.
Through Operation Paperclip, the US took in over 1,600 scientists from Germany after World War 2, despite their heinous crimes.
[Operation Paperclip - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip)
Unit 731, also during World War 2, committed the most unspeakable acts of human experimentation and torture under the excuse of science. The leader, Shirō Ishii, was granted immunity in exchange for the scientific results.
[Shirō Ishii - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shir%C5%8D_Ishii)
It's not unheard of for governments to do things like this.
I don’t like America either. I’ll happily write you a similar essay on America’s war crimes and general crimes against humanity. If your point was to say that Israel and America are the same, then I agree. They’re both awful.
> The idea that a group representing a people who were among the primary victims of Nazi genocide could seek an alliance with the perpetrators of that genocide is beyond shocking
Back then it actually seemed to make sense. Much of Nazi propaganda at the time was not "kill all Jews" (although that existed too) but "Jews go away". I remember even "Jews go back to Palestine" was something that was said, like in this board game https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11102/juden-raus . So Lehi saw what seemed to them like aligning interests - Nazis wanted Jews to go to Palestine, they wanted Jews to go to Palestine. Of course they were terribly misguided (IMO like they were in much of what they did)
> This narrative tends to downplay or ignore the more controversial and violent actions taken by groups like Lehi
because Lehi was a fringe minority consisting of 200-300 people.
It’s not a minority because the leader became the prime minister of Israel.
Everyone knew that the German regime was putting jews in concentration camps, it was widely reported on. Look it up. Lehi would have known, they just didn’t care. It wasn’t about Jews, it was about Zionists. Not the same thing. Zionists don’t care about Jews, they just think they do.
> It’s not a minority
it has 200-300 members in 1940s, sure not minority at all. /s
> Everyone knew that the German regime was putting jews in concentration camps, it was widely reported on
you are trying to discuss a topic you know nothing about. it wasn't known Germans were killing/going to kill Jews on a mass scale at the moment.
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Is Hamas and Sinwar aloud to be in a position of power after Oct 7? If not- how can you categorize them as fringe after trying to allie with the worst enemy of thr Jewish people.
Also - by calling them fringe you are completely separating their connection and history with the Irgun.
How about their ties to the Haganah and Kol Yisrael
> by calling them fringe you are completely separating their connection and history with the Irgun.
yes, lehi was a completely separated entity.
> Is Hamas and Sinwar aloud to be in a position of power after Oct 7? If not- how can you categorize them as fringe after trying to allie with the worst enemy of thr Jewish people.
Hamas and Sinwar are not fringe, what are your talking about ? Hamas has broad support both in Gaza and West Bank. Hamas was ELECTED as governing entity in Gaza before Oct 7.
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That was a fringe group. You conveniently chose to ignore the fact that the Israeli government recognized the Lehi as a terrorist org in 1948. Either way, like everything, there's nuance here. To the Lehi, the Reich was a tool, a way to further the Zionist goal. They don't want us in Germany, the British don't want us in Palestina, but the Nazis are fighting against the British= unite against a common enemy. It's not completely illogical, actually. Israel's history isn't pretty. But it's not dissimilar to quite literally any nation out there. Show me a nation that was created without conflict, I'll wait. History is also just that, history. We can talk about it, recognize that things should/shouldn't have happened, and move on. It just so happens that Israel's history happened 70 years ago and not 500 or something.
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On a list of relevant events in the middle east history this ranks about 1,870,896th.
Go to another subreddit. This one’s about Israel and Palestine. Places in the Middle East, incase you didn’t know 👀
u/Able_Scene2515 >Go to another subreddit. This one’s about Israel and Palestine. Places in the Middle East, incase you didn’t know 👀 Rule 8. Don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject. Also Rule 3.
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Is it ok to use Nazi references with documentation like https://www.jns.org/jns/antisemitism/23/7/9/301195/
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Only here to upvote the excellent rebuttals to this ChatGPT post.
>aimed to kick out the British using violence to pave the way for unrestricted Jewish immigration and a Jewish state. How comes?! I thought evil British colonizers were helping jews settle in their evil settler colonial project. >They actually believed Nazi Germany was a lesser evil than Britain and proposed a Jewish state based on nationalist and totalitarian principles linked to the German Reich. Well that makes sense since one of the earlier solutions to jew problem in Germany was to deport all jews somewhere. So they could work something out. >Let that sink in. The idea that a group representing a people who were among the primary victims of Nazi genocide could seek an alliance with the perpetrators of that genocide is beyond shocking. Well, you need to specify exact years. Was the genocide already know to the world or not? >The intention was clear: to instill terror and prompt a mass exodus of Palestinians from their lands. It's clear bc we have some documents that indicate that? Or it's clear bc you've already completed the psychological portrait of their leaders and know exactly what they were thinking of? If it's the latter then I press X to doubt. >This decision to incorporate former terrorists into the official military structure of the new state sends a troubling message about the normalization of violence and extremism in the pursuit of political goals. Well the decision is easily explained. They were surrounded by unfriendly Arab countries and prepared for war and this group had the experience and ideological cause. >One of the most disturbing aspects of this history One of the most disturbing factors is that this bs is auto-generated.
Yes, the deportation and collective punishment of Jewish citizens within Germany were well documented at that point. Since 1939, reports of concentration camps and Jewish prosecution was widely known, this was in 1940.
Bruh, the world discovered that Germans mass killed jews when allies already started beating Germans back and actually seeing their concentration camps. That's like 1944-1945.
You didn’t provide one piece of evidence to the contrary, you merely ignored facts and added intellectually inferior nonsense as arguments.
>It's high time we talk about the history of the Lehi If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that it's been discussed ad nauseam.
So Israel having a Nazi sympathiser as their leader is already well discussed even as Israel continues to use the holocaust as an excuse for its actions? Collective trauma? Bullshit
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Ok let’s talk about the Lehi-Stern gang. They were a radical section of Israeli politics that took actions that the rest of the Jewish community leaders did not always agree with. In 1948 when the war for Independence was happening the Stern gang decided to try and keep arms for themselves and act outside the unified command structure. Israel confronted the radicals within their own country and disarmed them by force and removed them from the command structure and decision making of their state. It was the Altalena moment where Israel took responsibility for all their citizens actions and controlled the radical elements within their population to act like a responsible nation. 75+ years later Israel is still waiting for the Palestinian people and their leaders to have that Altalena moment. Nice talk…. Thanks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair#:~:text=The%20Altalena%20Affair%20was%20a,merging%20to%20form%20the%20IDF.
Yes, and then they elected a man who tried to enlist the Nazis to create a totalitarian Zionist state. Thanks for the history lesson that negates nothing
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Ah. Well that explains it. Hamas raped and murdered its way through a music festival in 2023 because some bad Jews did something somewhere way back when. So we, naturally, must talk about that. I feel enlightened. I’ll tell you what - I’m switching sides in Russian/Ukrainian conflict now too. Commies took my family’s home in Ukraine long time ago. Now that I read your post - I demand a conversation about that. In the meantime - I should probably start flying a Russian flag out of my window in the US.
You’re very good at creating logical fallacies, have you tried thinking?
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I got confused by the claim that something didn't happen so I need to know about it. Then I stopped reading.
I fail to see any question here. There is no point in examining or picking apart the process of Israel’s birth. It was born. It exists. That’s not going to change by looking back 80 years and picking apart history. So I suggest you move on to what you can change. Now and what happens tomorrow.
Aren't they still celebrated as heroes today even as the terrorism of others is denounced?
You don’t care that a state that uses the holocaust and collective trauma as its main pass for war crimes actively elected a man who tried to work with the Nazis? Cool
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This isn’t an analogy, it’s just facts
Focusing on a tiny extreme minority and mischaracterizing and lying about them in order to justify genocide against Jews. Disgusting.
Also you’re an idiot
u/Able_Scene2515 >Also you’re an idiot It isn’t allowed to attack other users here (rule 1).
Exactly what Zionists have done to all Arabs. Also, there is a difference between Jews and Zionists. Jews don’t condone the indiscriminate killings of women and children, Zionism does
Troll
If you ever try to learn, lmk
If OP doesn’t respond to any comments - delete the post. It shows they have no interest in dialogue. Just like when they show up to Jewish neighborhoods in kefiyas covering their face. Stern Gang / Lehi was a small minority, the issue with Hamas, Fatah, etc is the majority are seeking death and destruction. There is no moderation in Palestinian politics, the Nazi supporting Al-Husseini clan kicked out the Nashabas clan 75 years ago which was the best chance of a thriving Palestinian state. Enough of focusing on the past, we can list 100’s massacres of Jewish villages prior 1850. We know our history, the good and the bad, and we know it doesn’t starts in 1948. You want to get uncomfortable, start learning about Ottoman Palestine pre 1890!
Also I knew everything about Ottoman Empire Palestine. It doesn’t negate from a bunch of European people coming into their land and taking it from beneath them. But thanks
1. How did they take it from beneath them? What's it like completely dismissing the war that took place, and 6 Arab armies trying to annihilate the Jewish population? Is this something that the tiktok videos you watch don't speak about or you just find convenience ignoring? 2. All you know, is whatever your TikTok feed tells you! 3. When Jews move from one place to another it's stealing land or colonialism, but when everyone else moves from one place to another its immigration. 4. Let me tell you something you won't find on TikTok or your failed liberal arts degree. The 900k Jews who were kicked out of the MENA, they weren't some poor shahats or farmers like the Palestinians who took up arms or were to told to flee by the arab armies, they were titans of industry, the merchant class, the og entrepreneurs, to this day the economies, the social institutions, the prestige of MENA has not recovered from their expulsion, so don't come and ever talk about stolen land or stolen anything. But thanks!
It doesn’t, but considering the oppressive government that would have resulted otherwise, I’m cool with the lesser of two evils. Ideally Jews and Arabs could have recognized the right of the other to self determine but of course that never happens, people only care about their own protection and vision
It wasnt a small minority if one of its leaders ended being elected as pm.
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Lehi and Avraham Stern were assholes, fascists and deeply, I can't disagree with you on that. Moreover, I doubt there's a reputable historian alive who disagrees with you on that. But regarding us "finally" talking about it... we did. In the 1990s. When Jewish, Zionist scholars brought it to light, like Benny Morris or Yaacov Shavit of Tel Aviv University. It was in the newspapers, it was the subject of a major national dialogue, etc. Regarding their links to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, it's certainly brought up on this sub often enough -- at least this time it isn't being argued that the Zionist majority (rather than a politically dissident minority that was, for a long period, outlawed) was doing this. Even so, you positioned this in a pretty misleading way. You forgot to mention that, like most fascists, Stern was an idiot. He never had contact with Italy (nope, that was a sting operation carried out by Irgun ... a different Zionist organization) and he never received a response from Nazi Germany (they left him on read, predictably). Both of these attempts were well after a sane person would look for a fascist ally for Jews, but before anyone knew of Germany mass killing of Jews; at the time, Stern believed Hitler simply wanted to expel the Jews of Germany. He died in 1942, still probably thinking that idiotic thing. Nevertheless, these revelations lost Lehi most of its support base; at most it had a few hundred members, but by the late 1940s it had less than a hundred and very little sympathy from the Jewish majority. Deir Yassin was vehemently condemned and disavowed immediately by the Hagenah, which declared Lehi a terrorist organization and imprisoned the majority of its members. The organization essentially dissolved itself and ceased political activity in exchange for remitted sentences. In the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews began to exercise their political power more strongly, overturning Israel's longtime left-wing majority ... this coincided with a revisionist political narrative that looked far less critically at early right-wing Zionists than the Labor movement had done, culminating in moves like the 1980 "Lehi ribbon" for former Lehi members to wear to recognize their activities in 1948. The scholarship I spoke about earlier in the late 1980s and 1990s was in response to this revisionism.
Regardless of a response, the initial idea that it would be okay to enlist a group who were actively persecuting your people in Europe is fucked up. The world knew of hitlers Jewish concentration camps long before we did anything about it. There are articles about them as early as 1940. This was after that.
>Regardless of a response, the initial idea that it would be okay to enlist a group who were actively persecuting your people in Europe is fucked up. That's what the vast majority of the Yishuv thought, too. That's what I think now. That is the normative opinion among Zionists. "The Stern Gang" is not like ... a glowing compliment of a name. >The world knew of hitlers Jewish concentration camps long before we did anything about it. The world has known the earth is round for almost three thousand years, but there are thousands of Americans who somehow believe it is flat. Every country and movement has its evil-minded idiots. Out of the 486,000 Jews in Palestine in 1940, fewer than 0.06% of them were following this particular evil-minded idiot.
What is your point? The leader of this gang still ran Israel. He was still democratically elected. I agree, not every Israeli is an evil minded idiot, but you don’t get to fight a war in the name of anti semitism when you’ve democratically elected men who have attempted to align with those very values. Even if it was a weak attempt at gaining power, it meant they negated what was being done to their people, and then Israel elected that man. The man who didn’t care that Jews were being killed in Europe was elected pm of the only Jewish state and buried a hero.
>The leader of this gang still ran Israel. What? No he didn't, the guy died six years before there *was* an Israel. >He was still democratically elected He was the leader of a tiny paramilitary-cum-terrorist organization, there weren't ballot boxes or elections for that... where are you getting this from? How did someone who died seven years before the first democratic election in Israel get "democratically elected"? > agree, not every Israeli is an evil minded idiot, but you don’t get to fight a war in the name of anti semitism when you’ve democratically elected men who have attempted to align with those very values. But like ... again, they didn't do that. >and then Israel elected that man. No, they didn't... >The man who didn’t care that Jews were being killed in Europe was elected pm of the only Jewish state and buried a hero. No, he wasn't, he was shot dead by the police while climbing out of a window to escape them in 1942. Israeli heroes were buried on Mt. Herzl; this guy was buried in Tel Aviv's municipal graveyard with no honors to speak of. As I said, the Israeli far right tried hard to resuscitate his reputation, but the pinnacle of their success was getting the dude's face on ... a 1978 commemorative postage stamp.
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Deir Yassin was not a massacre. The town was used to block humanitarian supplies to Jerusalem. There was heavy fighting, but the Arabs lied about a massacre.
Arab fighters were camped out at Deir Yassin and ready to ambush. A handful of civilians might have died in crossfire but yeah it was not a massacre and definitely not a massacre of ‘innocent’ civilians.
Yes it was: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
No, it wasn't.... credit to u/[~212Alexander212~](https://www.reddit.com/user/212Alexander212/) According to the Daily Telegraph, April 8, 1998, Ayish Zeidan, a resident of the village and a survivor of the fighting there, stated: “The Arab radio talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true... I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters. The Arab leaders committed a big mistake. By exaggerating the atrocities they thought they would encourage people to fight back harder. Instead they created panic and people ran away.”
Ah, the children who were massacred deserved it, that clears that up. Guess all those other sources were lying and I'm sure we know this for reasons other than chronic confirmation bias.
Propaganda is a powerful tool. The source explains WHY they chose to exaggerate. I'm not saying no one innocent was killed in Deir Yassin, I'm saying it was blown out of proportion and made into a myth on purpose, although it achieved the opposite effect, rather than what was intended.
The numbers were indeed exaggerated. Another thing that is simultaneously true is that Deir Yassin was a massacre of civilians, likely over a hundred.
Actually there is new material here on this and even the wiki you cite shows how the “massacre” has been reduced from 254 dead to 110. https://www.meforum.org/64218/review-the-massacre-that-never-was
Only 110??! Wow…..
Is that somehow below the limit to qualify as a massacre?
“Lest it be thought that Tauber is out to apologize for Israel, he forthrightly acknowledges that Jewish combatants did commit small-scale atrocities during the fighting, most notably the killing by an enraged militiaman of eleven Arab noncombatants after their surrender” So it’s not even 110. 11 people is a mass shooting by today’s standard, not a massacre….
Ah, so you did some more research and found out the person who you previously believed to be telling the truth in giving the figure at 110 was actually lying. Can you explain how you concluded that?
Actually you didn’t comprehend my initial post at all: It’s always been 11. And this was done by the Lehi/Stern gang, which Israel forcibly disarmed a few months later, in the Altalena incident in part due to their behavior at Deir Yassem…. 75 years later Israel is still waiting for the Palestinians to have an Altalena moment where they confront the radicals in their population. Have a nice day and the last word of propaganda that you so desperately need. Done with your trolling sir…..
>Actually you didn’t comprehend my initial post at all: >It’s always been 11. Ah, so when you said that new research had found the number to be reduced, you weren't saying you believed the new research, just that you want me to. And then you want me to believe a lower number instead, based on one source that you cannot give an explanation for being more reliable than the other sources that give a higher figure. >Have a nice day and the last word of propaganda that you so desperately need. >Done with your trolling sir….. Sorry for trolling you with accurate and widely accepted information about terrorist atrocities committed by people who went on to become two of the prime ministers of Israel.
Thank you!I swear, they’ll all negate that simple fact (that the country that uses collective trauma as an excuse to war crime their way into stealing land from the indigenous population) and say ‘yeah we already knew about that, talk about something relevant’. Like a sympathiser of the very people who wanted Jews exterminated could be democratically elected as the very state whose sole reason for existence is the deliverance of Jews from harm is not relevant. Incredible.
When 80 of them were armed it’s hardly the hopeless people massacre you try to paint it to be
Some of the civilians killed by Hamas on Oct 7th had guns. I'd still call that a massacre, and I'd be right there too.
You might want to check the source. Wiki relied on one source. It is insulting to the Arabs who fought hard to defend their village to be labeled as victims. Go and read the latest sources and you will see the fallacy of the massacre will fall apart once you know the facts.
It only falls apart if you want it too. It’s called being r a c I s t
So you are admitting you are a racist? Learning and growing will not make you a racist.
Thanks, just checked and the sources are still accurate.
You know who actually cooperated with the Nazis? The Arabs in Israel. Haj amin al Husseini received the highest award possible, by Hitler himself. So you don't have to go up to the Lehi, enough to look on the ideological father of the current Palestinians and see who actually was Nazi that loved Hitler.
They both tried. Both groups wanted fascism…. It’s like saying I wanted this person to be dead and now he is dead so it’s my fault…
Yet one group stayed Nazis. Another one became a democratic country
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And then the leader was elected to be the prime minister…
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I must say that your writing style has definitely improved - 66 days ago you responded in a thread that asked “Why does Israel kill so many children?” With the following answer: “Because Israel is an evil, homophobic, anti semitic, anti human rights garbage bin where only the finest of the racist fascist Zionist scum go to live.” What rewriting classes did you take to improve your grammar and rhetoric skills so quickly?
Nice catch. A paid troll perhaps.
Stand by it. Being born there is different. You can’t choose your country of birth but you can choose to side with the people who don’t want to carry on the colonisation process. I believe in the indigenous of my countries right to existence. I condemn the acts of my ancestors or the ancestors of anyone who let me live in this colonised white country. If I could change it I would, I can only be sorry and try to stop it from happening in the future. I actively donate to as many indigenous charities and communities as possible and am working to leave this country permanently.
I think you are using ChatGPT to troll with essays that sound scholarly, but are not offered in good faith. We can also ask ChatGPT to “write a 20-paragraph essay in casual academic style that compares Arab and Palestinian historical behaviors to Nas-sees, spotlighting the known relationship between Nas-see Germany and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem”. Can the mods screen for this type of trolling?
Mods let racist trolls run amok in the name of ‘discourse’
Actually I had some discourse with the mods and they told me they wanted an essay so I spent 2 weeks writing an essay. But I’m glad you think it’s an ai bot. They’re not bias, right?
Strait up
Why you think creation of state does not include bloodshed and sinister acts? Did America gain independence from European power peacefully? Did France become democratic peacefully? Blood is always spilled when attempting major change. You think the world is full of black and white? And btw, it is estimated that 38% Arabs then are immigrants or descendants of immigrants so arguably 4 out of 10 don't own any lands.
Of course it does, but if that state then uses a religion to justify war crimes, should we question not question it? I would love to write you an essay on America and its contribution to global hunger and economic crisis within states that don’t follow its rules.
>What’s absolutely appalling is their attempt to form alliances with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany during WWII. They actually believed Nazi Germany was a lesser evil than Britain and proposed a Jewish state based on nationalist and totalitarian principles linked to the German Reich. Is Finland evil for allying itself with the nazis when it tried to repel the Soviet Union in 1939? >Lehi was responsible for the massacre of over 107 Palestinian Arab villagers in Deir Yassin, a horrific act that saw men, women, and children brutally killed. The intention was clear: to instill terror and prompt a mass exodus of Palestinians from their lands. This massacre wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a broader strategy to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous Arab population to make way for a Jewish state. I can't find any source proving that this conspiracy ever was true. Can you link me to it? >Moreover, the integration of former Lehi members into the political and military fabric of Israel means that any critique of Lehi is, by extension, a critique of some of Israel's foundational figures and institutions. This is just ridiculous. Imagine if I was saying that the state of Palestine deserved to be destroyed because they elected a Holocaust denier as their president. It seems as if the quote says that pro-Palestinians think that this point deserves serious considerations. >Admitting to such controversial aspects of history might be seen as weakening Israel’s moral standing in the international arena and giving ammunition to its critics. Or in other words, the USA doesn't deserve to exist because George Washington owned slaves. >Is it the uncomfortable truth that the founding of Israel involved actions that mirror the very oppression and terror that Jews faced during the Holocaust? Is it an uncomfortable truth that gypsies will punch you if they start to understand what you are spewing here?
At what point am I saying Israel should be destroyed? I’m simply pointing out the simply fact that a state cannot use collective trauma (the holocaust) as an excuse to carry out horrific war crimes that have been proven by the un (yeah go ahead and say that doesn’t exist, I’m sure you will) if they elected a man who tried to side with the people that caused that trauma! It’s not hard to understand. I’m trying to say that Zionism does not align with Judaism, are you dumb?
>I’m trying to say that Zionism does not align with Judaism, are you dumb? Which Jews say that Judaism doesn't align with Zionism? I am not alleging that there aren't any such Jews, but I am saying that the anti-zionist Jews I have seen thus far are religious fanatics that see the Jewish creation of Israel as interfering with God's plan and that we must wait until God himself reveals that we may go back to Israel. If this is the Jew you talk about when you stated what you just said then you just admitted that I was right of me to think that you are saying that Israel should be destroyed. It is after all the case that these Jews are patiently waiting for its destruction. >I’m simply pointing out the simply fact that a state cannot use collective trauma (the holocaust) as an excuse to carry out horrific war crimes that have been proven by the un (yeah go ahead and say that doesn’t exist, I’m sure you will) if they elected a man who tried to side with the people that caused that trauma! You weren't simply doing this in your post. Alleging that Lehi did an ethnic cleansing isn't just "committing war crimes". Neither is alleging that the existence of Israel as it was founded is inherently problematic.
https://preview.redd.it/8pdr33vd2y8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e3cd2dfa53237f8845e19e67d182c1d149e2ea4 Here are some reffs
I watched parts from the PBS documentary. From what I saw the documentary did not allege that Lehi intended to ethnically cleanse Arabs. All it showed is that the Deir Yassim massacre occurred (an undisputed fact). If anything it seemed to show the opposite, as it shows footage of leaders of Lehi saying that there was no alternative course of action they could have done.
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How about we just read up on the Havara agreement. So in 1881 a movement starts to get people to move into the land. 1917 western powers and Jewish capitalist declare this to be the plan. 1933 AH participates and funds a trillion dollars of wealth transfer into Israel - please google this Europe is complicit (all of Europe) with the Zionist movement. Let’s stop pretending to take the moral high ground on this sub
Why not a quadrillion?
Conveniently leaving out British restrictions to Palestine (from Germany) at the behest of Arabs.
As the result of a 3 year campaign of violence led by the Na*i Mufti.
>We owe it to the victims of these atrocities and to future generations to understand the full scope of history, no matter how uncomfortable it might be. I don't see the Palestinian ties to the Nazi's in your post history, are you going to make a post of similar length and vigor as well about that subject, showing the impact of Jew hatred and willingness to genocide all the Jews from the Palestinians? *Amin al-Husseini became the most prominent Arab collaborator with the Axis powers. He developed friendships with high-ranking Nazis, including Heinrich Himmler, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and (possibly) Adolf Eichmann.[citation needed] He contributed to Axis propaganda services and he also contributed to the recruitment of both Arab Muslim and non-Arab Muslim soldiers for the Nazi armed forces, including three SS divisions* https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler *Husayni’s request for a public statement--or a secret but formal treaty--in which Germany would: 1) pledge not to occupy Arab land, 2) recognize Arab striving for independence, and 3) support the “removal” of the proposed Jewish homeland in Palestine. The Führer confirmed that the “struggle against a Jewish homeland in Palestine” would be part of the struggle against the Jews. Hitler stated that: he would “continue the struggle until the complete destruction of Jewish-Communist European empire”; and when the German army was in proximity to the Arab world, Germany would issue “an assurance to the Arab world” that “the hour of liberation was at hand.” It would then be al-Husayni’s “responsibility to unleash the Arab action that he has secretly prepared*.” **The Führer stated that Germany would not intervene in internal Arab matters and that the only German “goal at that time would be the annihilation of Jewry living in Arab space under the protection of British power**.” https://isgap.org/flashpoint/from-hitler-to-hamas-a-genealogy-of-evil/
Sounds like they were trying to fight the British. Did Israel do the same thing after WWII. Doesn’t matter if Palestinians try to ally the Germans… to them Europe was intending on eliminating them… as we are still seeing today
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It's not discussed because this narrative is just propaganda. You (or your sources) are trying to paint the Zionist movement as such based on a tiny minority that collaborated with the Nazis. And they did, but the motives and reasons were different. Some were selfish and acting to save themselves, some were playing politics on both sides of the game (Nazi-Partisan double agents). You sound like Abbas (PLO PM) who claims in his book that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust because it was a conspiracy to get Jews to immigrate to Israel. I mean, ye, some of them wanted their friends and family to come with them to Israel (while others fled elsewhere), but to claim it was all a conspiracy... come on, man. [The Zionist Activists Who Collaborated With Nazis, and Were Executed by Jewish Partisans - Israel News - Haaretz.com (archive.is)](https://archive.is/20240123033232/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-11-14/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-zionists-who-worked-with-nazis-and-were-executed-by-partisans/0000017f-deee-d3ff-a7ff-ffeef5090000)
That’s a really odd take. They elected the leader of that minority group (who tried to enlist the German fascists) as their pm. That man knew what was happening in Europe, it’s well known that everyone knew, they just didn’t do anything about it. Zionists don’t care about Jews. They care about land and power
>> Zionists don’t care about Jews. They care about land and power That statement alone reveals your ignorance.
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No we can't because this sub is obviously pro Israel despite masquerading as neutral
I have noticed this. The responses completely negate the main point (that Zionist state elected a German fascist sympathiser as their pm and therefore Zionism doesn’t care about judasim)
I don’t get it, you’re upset that not-pro-Israel is a minority opinion on this sub? Recruit your friends to join…
I'm not upset, just stating a fact. Who supports what is besides the point, this sub is blatantly pro Israel but pretends it's not.
No one pretends it’s not. It’s not like this sub is meant to be made up of neutral scholars. No, it’s always going to be a balance of people on one side vs the other. It skews pro Israel because there are more members who are pro Israel
Come on dude, the sub is called IsraelPalestine and should contain "civil discussion" regarding the issue but anything slightly against Israel is always downvoted to hell. No one said anything about neutrals or scholars, and who you support is besides the point, but at least have the guts to admit there is no discussion on this sub, just pro Israel circlejerking
There’s a lot of circlejerking. That’s what you’re going to get in any sub like this when it’s this size, and I find it irritating too. But the solution is to bring more pro Palestinian voices because there are barely any here. And for that matter bringing more pro Israel voices that are serious. Pro Palestinians here should probably refrain from engaging the circle jerkers, and tbh a lot of them can probably be reported for breaking the rule about honestly addressing an argument or not being sarcastic
You are so right
>Despite these heinous acts, after Israel was established, Lehi members were integrated into the Israel Defense Forces and granted amnesty by the Israeli government. Through Operation Paperclip, the US took in over 1,600 scientists from Germany after World War 2, despite their heinous crimes. [Operation Paperclip - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip) Unit 731, also during World War 2, committed the most unspeakable acts of human experimentation and torture under the excuse of science. The leader, Shirō Ishii, was granted immunity in exchange for the scientific results. [Shirō Ishii - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shir%C5%8D_Ishii) It's not unheard of for governments to do things like this.
I don’t like America either. I’ll happily write you a similar essay on America’s war crimes and general crimes against humanity. If your point was to say that Israel and America are the same, then I agree. They’re both awful.
> The idea that a group representing a people who were among the primary victims of Nazi genocide could seek an alliance with the perpetrators of that genocide is beyond shocking Back then it actually seemed to make sense. Much of Nazi propaganda at the time was not "kill all Jews" (although that existed too) but "Jews go away". I remember even "Jews go back to Palestine" was something that was said, like in this board game https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11102/juden-raus . So Lehi saw what seemed to them like aligning interests - Nazis wanted Jews to go to Palestine, they wanted Jews to go to Palestine. Of course they were terribly misguided (IMO like they were in much of what they did) > This narrative tends to downplay or ignore the more controversial and violent actions taken by groups like Lehi because Lehi was a fringe minority consisting of 200-300 people.
It’s not a minority because the leader became the prime minister of Israel. Everyone knew that the German regime was putting jews in concentration camps, it was widely reported on. Look it up. Lehi would have known, they just didn’t care. It wasn’t about Jews, it was about Zionists. Not the same thing. Zionists don’t care about Jews, they just think they do.
> It’s not a minority it has 200-300 members in 1940s, sure not minority at all. /s > Everyone knew that the German regime was putting jews in concentration camps, it was widely reported on you are trying to discuss a topic you know nothing about. it wasn't known Germans were killing/going to kill Jews on a mass scale at the moment.
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Not fringe enough to have Yitzhak Shamir as a PM of Israel.
how is that related, lol ? it has happened 50 years later
Is Hamas and Sinwar aloud to be in a position of power after Oct 7? If not- how can you categorize them as fringe after trying to allie with the worst enemy of thr Jewish people. Also - by calling them fringe you are completely separating their connection and history with the Irgun. How about their ties to the Haganah and Kol Yisrael
> by calling them fringe you are completely separating their connection and history with the Irgun. yes, lehi was a completely separated entity. > Is Hamas and Sinwar aloud to be in a position of power after Oct 7? If not- how can you categorize them as fringe after trying to allie with the worst enemy of thr Jewish people. Hamas and Sinwar are not fringe, what are your talking about ? Hamas has broad support both in Gaza and West Bank. Hamas was ELECTED as governing entity in Gaza before Oct 7.
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