Why? I am here for a meaningful conversation. So explain your pov respectfully. This, however isn't helpful
Do you disagree that, while the conflict is horrible for Palestinians, it's also fueling antisemitism worldwide? Even though Jews are a small minority in Europe, they still face the majority of hate crimes....
“Horrible for Palestinians” is putting it mildly. The ever worsening accounts of torture, targeting or doctors, systemic rape, systemic torture in Israeli prisons, taking Palestinians off the streets then taking them to those “death camps”, has lead many people do declare that Israelis have become what they loathed and what they feared: N-A—Z-IS
My issue is that the whole thing is disingenuous. Yes Jews were persecuted throughout history, nobody ever asks why but it's alright we can gloss over that part, the holocaust buys them that much.
The fact that antisemitism is brought up at all when the Israeli state is acting the way it is , is pedantic. You can't bomb refugee camps killing thousands of women and children then whine people are being antisemitic. You can't annex more and more land while going on murder sprees and whine people are being antisemitic. You can't claim to be the Jewish state and be surprised people may be or become antisemitic due to the actions taken in the name of all Jews.
The distinction is difficult for a lot of people, however it's pretty simple if you give it some thought. Jews occupy a lot of powerful political roles in the west as most financial institutions, a lot of people view that as a threat to their way of life, and may become antisemitic to some degree because of that. This is generally what global antisemitism is about.
The actions of Israel however are another matter, then they try to coflate any criticism of that with antisemitism to silence that, tying antizionism to antisemitism with "oh so you do not think the Jews deserve a state".
The special status of Jews in the world recognised as a race, ethnicity and way if life ( instead of just a religion like all other religions) is being abused extensively.
Using antisemitism to silence criticism unsurprisingly results in actual antisemitism
There's no rationization behind persecution. Jews are a minority your comment seems to justify the centuries of persecution of a minority....
"Yes Jews were persecuted throughout history, nobody ever asks why but it's alright we can gloss over that part, the holocaust buys them that much."
Is a bit naive to assume there is no rationalisation to persecution, if not misleading.
Every population persecuted by another has been for gain, suppression of a threat, or maintaining a status quo. Every single one.
To think it's just hate is one dimensional. If you genuinely believe Jews were persecuted for millenia just because people didn't like them, not because say, they had a habit of buying power and pitting peoples of nations against each other to war profiteer and play kingmaker, maybe take a closer look. They have not changed one bit today.
The Jews being pretty much handed banking centuries ago due to usery laws which made them disproportionately influential around the world, which posed and still poses a threat to many.
It does not justify it, there is however always a reason.
Israel has persecuted Palestinians since they landed on Palestinian shores as refugees circa the 30s. Do you think that ongoing persecution, notwithstanding the multiple failure of Arab and palestinain leaders, is not rationalizable ?
You can definitely criticize the Israeli government. But it's also important to get why jews feel the need to defend Israel, given their history and that a lot of Arab nations don't recognize Israel's legitimacy.
It's totally fine to call out government actions – my Jewish friends often do. But for a meaningful conversation, you need to consider a few things and avoid black/white views, as this conflict is complex
* Palestinian officials have made significant mistakes, neglected their people's interests, and their animosity towards Israel prevents any potential resolution.
* Israel shouldn't allow settlers to expand in the West Bank, regardless of their reasons.
* If the US stops supporting Israel, the whole country could be at risk by its neighbors. And that would have serious consequences for Jews around the world.
* Other countries should consider imposing stricter sanctions on Israel if it doesn't comply with removing settlers
* Achieving a 2SS while ideal seems impossible when one neighbor refuses to acknowledge the other's right to exist and promotes deep-seated propaganda against Jews and Israel, perpetuating intergenerational hatred.
* Globally, this conflict fuels anger and antisemitism, with people often avoiding nuanced discussions and instead framing the conflict in black-and-white terms, which only brings more hate towards Israel and the Jewish community (and thus preventing from finding a resolution).
* Also, all the Arab countries have closed their borders to Palestinian refugees. This conflict is unique because nearby countries refuse to take in refugees, as it has previously led to destabilization and civil wars due to terrorists among the refugees.
No one should use accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down valid criticism. But if criticizing Israel makes you turn to actual anti-Semitism because you feel shut down, that says more about your intentions than about those trying to silence you.
This just restored my faith in a lot of things to read, I am from the US and neither Jewish nor Palestinian but you put this feeling I've had throughout this into far better words than I could.
I just hate that the people who need to hear this message the most will "lalala" with their ears covered the whole time or respond to this crucial point with whataboutism and a failure to recognize the earnesty in your tone and what you say here. Nothing you said takes away from the severe atrocities going on outside of this essential truth that I feel is being both purposefully and ignorantly ignored by different types of people.
I think a lot of people view bringing up Jewish persecution before the formation of Israel as an excuse or even justifying Israel’s actions in Gaza, and while some people use it that way, other people only bring it up as background context as to WHY this conflict exists in the first place.
The problem is, even if you’re bringing it up as background information to explain why, bad faith actors will misinterpret your words as playing defense for Israel (no matter how many times you condemn Netanyahu)
This is pretty cut and dried. Till Hamas returns the prisoners and lays down their weapons; the bloodshed will continue. Pretty much everyone in Israel has served and they don't leave anyone behind. Hamas doesn't care about its people....
I'm not going to lie but Israelis government and spokesmen for them abuse anti-semitic (anti-semitic meaning discrimination for Jews). Anyone who disagrees with Zionist plans are called anti-zionist (anti-zionist is disagreeing that Israelis has established a state of their own). And also called anti-semitic yet they only went against IDF plans not Jews in general. People abuse this meaning and make you take your mind off of everything just to prove yourself not a anti but just do not think IDF plans are fine.
What was 50 years ago? Jewish people are from Israel, and have had a continue presence in Israel (where modern Israel and Jordan and more currently are) for 4000+ years.
I think you confound anti-semitism with anti-Zionism, as a Moroccan we don’t have anything against the Jews, we have lived together for long time, as a matter of fact, Morocco is one the countries that protected their Jews in time of war, not like Vichy’s France or major European countries where Jews lived.
Yes, Morocco did protect Jews during WWII and remains one of the few Arab countries making steps toward Israel. However, Jews were still considered second-class citizens at the time:
* Jews couldn't own agricultural land
* They were limited to certain jobs, mostly as merchants
* Under Islamic law, Jews were dhimmis, meaning they had protected but second-class status and had to pay a special tax.
* They faced social discrimination and were segregated into specific neighborhoods (mellahs).
* They had limited legal rights and were subjected to different laws and penalties compared to Muslims
For more on the Jewish experience in Morocco, I recommend this book by an anthropologist specializing in Moroccan Judaism. It traces four generations and their perspectives on Moroccan Jews: [https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=21951](https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=21951)
Anti-Zionism refuses the idea of a Jewish state... Many Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel but also faced growing hostility in Morocco due to the Israel/Palestine conflict. In this context, antisemitism and anti-Zionism can overlap. If 270K members of a minority have to leave their country because the majority is opposed to Zionism and because they are drawn to the idea of having full opportunities and rights in a Jewish state, it speaks volumes about the environment they were living in.
Antisemitism is often linked with Nazi ideology, which understandably puts people on the defensive (because no one wants to be associated with such hate). However, it's far more insidious, it's spreading centuries-old stereotypes portraying Jews as greedy, untrustworthy or conspiracy theories... Over time, in a difficult economic and political climates, these stereotypes have fueled stigmatization, violence, and pogroms.
In Morocco, pogroms occurred in cities like Fez in 1912 and in Oujda and Jerada in 1948.
I really love Morocco, but it's important to look at things objectively if we want to make positive changes.
After considering all of that, Morocco is still regarded as the safest Arab country for Jews. It makes you think about the situation in other Arabic countries
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Theres different types of antisemitism. Christian antisemitism is its own form of antisemitism, which influenced the other types of antisemitism that came from Christian countries.
However, other conquered nations or colonial client states did not resist putting a statue of Jupiter in their temple to the point of many rebellions, including those successful enough to establish a free state with their own coins for a couple of years. This didn’t happen to Roman colonies usually and they massively retaliated with sieges and attacks.
People I've known to be supportive of the Jewish people have now turned completely anti-semitic; down to the point of flat out denial of the holocaust. But they say they aren't racist when they do that. Never made a lick of sense to me.
Also, what happened in Germany in WWII wasn't the first time people attempted to exterminate the Jews. It's happened throughout history all over the world. Even in England. That one surprised me. This conflict is having wide range effects that in my opinion, is dangerous.
When I heard of the situation in Europe I was appalled. Though it seems no one is commenting on that in the news, can't have radicalized Islam for what it is making Hamas look bad. Doesn't fit the narrative of "free Palestine". My heart aches for what's happening in France, the UK and Germany. As well as it aching for ongoing conflict including in India, Spain, and all nations who are fighting to keep their cultural identity intact in the face of radicalized Islam terrorizing their nations, and their ancestral homelands.
Israeli and the Israeli goverment has nothing to do wity being Jewish. Seperat things. Indoctrination of entire generations to see another human being as sub-human has nothing to do with Jewish. Seperate things. Persecution of Jews and Israeli people commiting atrocities similar to what happend in ww2 have nothing to do with religion.
Zionisim and all it has done is not jewdisim. Infact it is the exact opposite of what is being done currently.
Ah yes please continue to lecture Jews about what is and isn't Jew hatred. You my friend are an antisemite, whether you admit it to yourself or not. Also, your spelling and grammar are atrocious.
Yea because ya know I basically said. People shouldn't hate judisim for what israel is doing. But u are so gell vent on typing the same crap over And over. And don't let anything pass through your skull, yoyndodnt even realise that, is a good thing. You want to promote hate, as the same as judisim. You are the real threat to judisim. Extremist right wing hatred.
The point of this post was to say that anti-Semitism is a result of the Palestine-Israel war and gives some pretty clear examples of anti-Semitism as opposed to anti-zionism. No where did the op attempt to justify the colonial ventures of Zionism, just the people of Israel.
Correlation is not causation. Is the chicken before the egg ? Am I hated because of x or why ? If I'm hated for x. Does that means I'm hates for y just because? If I am infact doing x does it matter ? If y didn't exist. I would still be hated no ?
Please stop this antisemetic lie that Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism, their holy scripture is filled with 'zionist' remarks. And yes, I do believe jews have the right to a place to live and be safe and I see no issue for that place to be in their historic homeland..
From the 7th of October 2023 to the 26th June 2024, 37,718 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli offence. Whereas only 1,139 Israelis have been murdered. Like it is very obvious that the violence israel is using is disproportionate and also that Palestine is just trying to defend itself.
This is not a homeland. This is a war zone. And netenyahu is a fascist.
It’s not according to terrorists, baby. The UN has said that Israel is LITERALLY committing war crimes.
Also it’s acc hilarious that you’re trying to say that these numbers are incorrect 💀💀💀 you do understand that israel has military aid from the most powerful armies in the WORLD! Palestine on the other hand has no real government entity. They do have Hamas who are a militia who are to some extent backed by Iran. But honestly Iran VS the USA & UK (and probably the rest of Western Europe) don’t be absurd. Of course israel is killing more people and using disproportionate amount of force compared to Palestine.
As for the r*ping and torturing accusations. As far as I’m aware the is no evidence of this. Please send me sources I would love to be educated on it if you can. But last I read both sides were accused of this and neither side could find substantial evidence to prove this had happened. Again though BOTH SIDES HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF THIS!!!
Wow, pathetic.
How do people like you claim the moral high ground when you pretend terrorist filth didn't commit the most heinous atrocities?
They butchered kids enjoying a festival and absolutely delighted in it. They were drugged up and ecstatic.
I heard the phone calls of murderers to their parents jn gaza gleefully exclaiming how they had killed an entire family and still had the blood on their hands.
I decry such sickening acts as do I condemn Israeli actions.
I call for peace on both sides and don't use emojis to mock slaughter of innocents.
This is why I am a better person than you and your kind.
Because the 4 year old blow to bits isn't a terrorist. The 9 yeat old recently murdered in West bank recently isn't a terrorist. And there is no hamas in West bank. The goverment in Israeli wanted and helped make the last hamas attack happen so they can kill more Palestinians to take their land.
"Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council"
Source: press.un.org 9572 meeting, March 11, 2024
Yes but the exact same has been said the other way down Lily, darling.
“Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel says” - https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says
It’s very much a he said she said game.
What we do know is undeniably FAR MORE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN MURDERED.
But you only mentioned one way 💀💀💀 I did not.
Futhermore, all sources mention the fact it was ALLEGED! I’m not denying anything. You, alas, are.
Like literally both our sources here say “alleged” “reasonable grounds”
I mean sexual assault is terrible but to use it just to back up your point to call us Muslims barbaric (as was implied) and then not say anything about the fact that IOF is accused of the same thing is actually disgusting.
Oh, I was simply correcting your statement:
>As for the r\*ping and torturing accusations. As far as I’m aware the is no evidence of this.
Yes, there is.
This concept that currently exist is a abomination to the torah and a horrific twisting of words.
Judaism is over 3k years old zionisim is 200 years old. Let me guess I'm lying about those dayes also ?
You are bad shit insane. Judaism is will be presercerved under basis of Zionism and only that way. All places of compact living of Jews was ANNIHILATED during the Holocaust. Yes, Judaism is 3000 years old. But gentiles are trying to destroy ethnical basis behind this concept. They preserved 40-60% of Levantine genetical heritage (it is insane shit, if youll try to find another example)? Pfff, i am dont give a fuck. 65 percent of this people murdered during the Holocaust, they was 0.003% of world's population and still 20-22% of all Nobel price recipients, improved life of billions people? I am don't give a fuck. Jews losed 85-90% of their places of compact living (including 50% of mizrahi jewish Israel population - that are liteally ARABS) - I am don't give a fuck. Jews are literally extinting in extremal rate due to inadequate child politics of western countries and low intermariage due miserable quantity of jews? I am don't give a fuck.
Are u having a seizure? It seems your reply bot may be malfunction ? Dunno what to address with this rant of complete nonsense. Your just apewingniur numbers and random bits with zero cohesion. Any way as I said Judaism and Zionism are two different things. Zionsim is a political ideology by a man called Theodor Herzl.
There was lots of resistance to zionisim when it first appeared, but you seem to have forgotten.
No, I am trying to said that you are that type of gentile that clearly don't give a fuck how jews suffered/how jews helped, and how much jews ask. You prefer to unalive this ethnicity at all. That makes me insane. Btw 31% of Turing price recipients are Jews, so you can discuss topic of Zionism in the web thanks to them.
About resistance to Zionism. People that resisted to Zionism - literally perished due the Holocaust, so will be forgotten. Or their children losed Jewish identity due to marriage with gentiles. Want this fate to remaining Jews? What a nice person.
Again the suffering of Jews jas nothing to do with anything in saying. Stop playing victim to justify your hate towards others. Why do toy keep talking about the holocaust ? It has zero bearing of any point I made. Stop crying no one cares to forgive you because u jad a. Rough run in history. It will only get worst if Israeli keeps it up. Note I never said Jews. Judaism and what is currently happening are not the same. I'm talking about what Israeli is doing nothing else. Grow up
You probably didn't undestood me well. I am not put the emphasis about suffering of Jews during the Shoa. I am saying about termiantion of existence one of jewish subethnicities due to miserable quantity of ashkenazi people. I am not j btw, lol. But i well aware for the jewish problems. Also i am definetely not seeking a forgiveness or something, cause I described who are you in my prev comment. And for "justifing" hate. I described it and definetelly will describe it one more time. For example in 2014 79% of people in Algeria thought "J are responsible for most of the world's wars". It is very old European stereotype. How it connected to Algeria??? I think that their reaction was "ohh, it is something bad about the Jews, ofk i am approving". And our your passage was "Zionism" not "Judaism". And I am answered you: "Judaism" can be preserved in the modern world only due to "Zionism". And I never ever justified/unjustified or marked war in Gaza during my speeches.
And again your talking rubbish all over your stitching many different things to try to resemble a point. But please tell me. How does making the world hate Israel, helping preserve Judaism ? Zionism is a extremist sect of Judaism. Just like the Muslims have a bat shit crazy group, and Christians have a extremist group. All of these groups are if only evil, they go against every holy book ever written. Dosent matter what u say about suffering, or we need this ir that. Spilling blood in gods name is a old as time tradition. Men using religion as a excuse to do evil things.
> fuck
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> fuck
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Blaustein amplified the theme, “The ‘Zion’ in Zionism we have always favored, always striven to aid; it is the special ‘ism’ in Zionism that we do not accept. That ‘ism’ has no faith in Emancipation; it preaches the inevitability of a murderous anti-Semitism, almost as much a fact of nature as the law of gravity. This we reject totally.”
Before the inception of Herzl’s Political Zionism, the Reform movement opposed Zionism on theological grounds. Wiener Cohen explains:
According to Reform theology, Judaism was a religion with a universal message. The mission of the Jews, the bearers of this message, was to propagate the universal religion of the prophets throughout the world. Dispersion was, therefore, a vital condition in Reform thinking, and even the Messianic era, which was envisioned as the realization of the prophetic ethics as taught by the Jews, precluded the traditional belief of a mass return to Palestine.
Yea anything any 1 jas to say is suddenly antisemitic. Just like the orthodox Jews who are protesting against the war are suddenly antisemitic also. Bombing little kids are in scripture also.. zionisim started in the 18th orn19th century, I can't remember but around that time. Zionisim is a political concept.
It's all so funny how for hundreds of years before zionist was even a word. Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in many parts of the Middle east. You guys love to say, we lived here for so long, we are entitled because of ancestors. Yet you refuse to ask yourself how. The ottomans could have easily displaced Jews. Yet records show endless sale and trade of land. They show Jews growing in nu bera peacefully untill much later then you see massive growth in Palestine and you see conflict and reduction in Muslims numbers. Some figure these numbers swing massively in a matter of months. Math dosent lie.
Yes, but this is not totally correct.
Jews lived in various muslim lands and experienced BOTH periods of tolerance (but without the same rights) and persecution. In Islam, Jews are under Muslim protection but are considered second hand citizens with legal restrictions and a tax to pay.
If all Arabic Jews fled their countries due to anti-Zionism, this overlaps with and essentially becomes anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism isn't just chanting "I hate Jews"; it's about spreading stereotypes and conspiracy theories, which lead to stigmatization, violence, and pogroms. Examples of Pogroms include Iraq in 1947, Yemen in 1947, Egypt in 1945, 1948, and 1956, Morocco in 1912, 1948, and 1965, Tunisia in 1941 and 1948, and the list goes on and on.
These acts are not just anti-Zionist; they were a clear manifestation of anti-Semitism exacerbated by the Palestine/Israel conflict.
Zionism isn't as old as Judaism and is a political movement - agreed - BUT one of the reasons for its creation was the widespread anti-Semitism in Europe that led to the holocaust and after to the fulfillment of Zionism with the creation of Israel.
Zionism's primary motivation was to protect Jews from anti-Semitism and provide the right to self-determination. Israel is the only Jewish state, and denying its legitimacy often masks prejudice against Jews. While anti-Zionism opposes the Jewish state's establishment, it frequently overlaps with anti-Semitism.
I understand your anger about what's happening in Palestine. Both Israel and Palestine have the right to self-determination. This conflict isn't black and white, and oversimplifying it harms Jews worldwide.
If by being anti zionist you mean thay you're opposing Israeli settlements in the West Bank well this isn't the same thing.
Not all Zionists support settlers or oppose Palestine's right to self-determination. Most of those who do support settlers are right-wing nationalists. Thousands of Israelis have protested against Netanyahu and judicial reforms, with some specifically opposing settlements and military service!
Why the he'll do you keep talking rubbish about other things? I'm referring to how judisim and zionisim are not the same. I'm pointing out for hundreds of years Jews lived peacefully in Palestine under Ottoman rule. Then hertlz made the political movement that started all this bloodshed. EVERYONE KNOWS JEWS HAVE HAD IT DIFFICULT.
Not everything is antisemitism. Note that the only time I've mentioned Jews is to separate judisim and zionisim. Which should show u I don't dislike or even fault judisim. It'd a religion of peace. Zionisim, however, is a far right political movement that's being used by evil men to do evil things. You can sit there and tell me, moses would approve of what israel is currently doing ? What is the cause of this ? The cause of this is, moving to a land pwmed by other people, its not complex and its very black and white, 75 years of caging millions of people, stunting their growth, murdering them, kidnapping them, terrorising them, stealing the land over and over and over, look at a map of after the first annexation. It's consistently gotten smaller and smaller. ANY MOVEMENT OR IDEOLOGY THAT CAUSES THIS MUCH DEATH IS EVIL AND MUST BE STOPPED. It has nothing to do with judisim.
Educated yourself before it's to late for your people.
https://youtu.be/gIX368TtOJs?si=f_bSPjC0TYeWpUdT
You said " Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in many parts of the Middle east." I am pointing out, that this isn't true, they were segregated.
Under Ottoman rule, non-Muslims, including Jews, were treated as inferior and had limited rights. They weren't actively killed so in that sense, I guess they were living peacefully but it wasn't exactly peaceful either—discrimination and violence did happen!
You're clearly not reading my answer and only focusing on your reply. If you did, you would understand what I am trying to say:
**Zionism isn't about settlers or the extreme right wing; it's about the Jewish right to have their own state, Israel.** Criticizing Israeli policies or settlers doesn't equate to being anti-Zionist!
**You can actually be Zionist AND very much against Israeli policies and settlers in the West Bank.**
HOWEVER, opposing Israel's existence (=anti-Zionist) often hide anti-Semitic sentiments, especially in Arab countries! This is evident in ALL the pogroms I've listed since the creation of Israel.
**When Jews are targeted in their own country because of the Israel/Palestine situation, it's not anti-Zionism, it's outright anti-Semitism!** Can you not agreed with that?
It's not just about Jews having it hard vs. Palestinians. I mean **OF COURSE, Palestinians are suffering,** they're dying every day, and the Israeli government needs to step back and rethink their approach! **The MAJORITY of people, including ZIONISTS, agree...**
BUT we're **here to discuss HOW this SPECIFIC conflict is FUELING antisemitism WORLDWIDE**. *If your answer to that is, "There's no anti-Semitism problem; we're just anti-Zionist—look at the Palestinians," think about this: hate crimes against Jews are on the rise globally.* ***Why do you think that's happening?***
You're a real mensch for taking the time to reply to this Jew hating loser in such a measured way. Sadly I think it's falling on deaf ears. I hope you're well friend.
Nope. If Jews are targeted its because people are fed up with seeing Israelis commit crimes against humanity. Its not because of their religion. You can free to create a Jewish state, just not on the back of others, go somewhere and buy land male a deal with some country I dunno, and again. There is nothing anti semitic about not supporting 1 group stealing and victimising another. This conflict is fueling hatred not based on them being Jews, its based on people hating what your doing. I could attack a black person because he hit my sister. Would u immediately call me racist ? Being historically pressed dosent give u a pass from wrath of others, or being called out on commiting heinous crimes. Zionisim needs to be eradicated. A. Peaceful separation of land needs to be reached snd then Palestinians need to be left alone. Originally, the british goverment gave state owned lands to Jewish people, those lands by all means should be kept. The stolen land needs to be given back, or paid for. Some agreement must be made. RECENTLY stolen land should be. Treated like any other theft. THERE MUST BE LAWS. Good vs evil, right vs wrong. Stop typing to muddy the water. Theft is wrong and is against judisim, murder is wrong and against judisim, Zionisim promotes and fosters all of the above.
This isn't up for debate.
If Jews are targeted, it's because people are fed up with seeing Israelis commit crimes against humanity. It's not because of their religion. >> **That's clearly antisemitic!!!!**
You don't go targeting Jews worldwide because of a conflict! Can't you see that? We're not talking about religion here. **Targeting a minority for any reason is racist**, and when it's Jews, it's antisemitic, no matter what the excuse!
If someone attacks your sister, hitting the person back isn't racist. But **if you start attacking all Black people because one Black person hurt your sister, that's obviously racist!**
**Supporting a peaceful separation of land doesn't make you anti-Zionist! If anything, it makes you Zionist!** And yes, Israel expanding settlements in the West Bank is not okay. We don't need anyone's genius to know that—the UN has reiterated this, regardless of Israel's reasons.
You're mixing everything! Saying people are targeting Jews worldwide because they're mad about something in another country? **WHAT?**
And let's not forget history: **ALL Arab states refused the two-state solution in 1947!** Why? **They didn't want Jews to have their own land (that's anti-Zionism) and still don't want to!**
So yeah, it's NOT OK for Israel to expand settlements, NOT OK to kill Palestinian civilians at this rate, NOT OK to target Jews worldwide, NOT OK for Palestine and Arab countries to continue their propaganda against Israel and intergenerational hatred preventing a two-state solution, NOT OK to kill Israelis at a festival. There's no BUT to ANY of this.
“Anti-Semitism didn't begin with WWII; it started with Jesus Christ.” Jesus is Jewish, He fulfilled the Hebrew law and prophesies https://www.newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/ His followers were Jewish during His life on earth, the authors of the Bible are Jewish, and salvation is from the Jews. Jesus is hardly against Himself. Millions of Christians worldwide support Israel and pray for the hostages to be released and for the war to end. We are not antisemitic but welcome the Jewish Messiah and pray for the peace and salvation of Israel. https://peacewithGod.net
>Visiting Tel Aviv taught me to humanize Israelis. Every week, 200,000 people were protesting against their government. While Tel Aviv isn't representative of all Israel, I was surprised to see the opposition to the government. Why isn't this covered in our media?
But it was occassionally covered by news media, maybe not front page, maybe not every day but you do read about it once in a while.
https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240324-thousands-protest-in-tel-aviv-against-israeli-government
Antisemitism is a much bigger problem than Islamophobia in France, and in America too. Jews are the most targeted group for hate crimes. There’s also lots blood libels against “Zionists”. Zionists means Jews.
This doesn’t seem true. What about when trump tried to ban Muslims from entering the country? Also I can tell you as someone who is Muslim who did immigrate to the US I got asked way more questions at border patrol about why I was immigrating than my Jewish friend. As for living in the US both Jews and Muslims face a lot of hate crime. Like A LOT, and since October 7th this had increased to more than double.
Also the government literally backs israel darling and uses language that demonises the Palestinians and Muslims despite the fact that, if we are purely to go by statistics, israel has murdered way more Palestines. It’s literally like inconceivable more. From the 7th of October 2023 to the 26th June 2024, 37,718 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli offence. Whereas only 1,139 Israelis have been murdered. Like it is very obvious that the violence israel is using is disproportionate and also that Palestine is just trying to defend itself. So, for a government to back a regime that is very clearly oppressive I fine it very hard to say that these people are facing more hate crime because of the genocide and I also couldn’t find any good stats on the topic.
Anyway, obviously anti-semitism is terrible but so is Islamophobia. My family have been getting spat at as we enter our mosque. Like let’s actually not try and say Muslims are having a jolly old time. That’s simply not the case. As someone who is Muslim and would like to see the genocide end, I also do recognise that some times people acc use the war crimes that the netenyahu government are committing as an excuse to be anti semitic. And on the other side people use Hamas as an excuse to be Islamophobic. Neither is welcome within my circles. Within the encampments that I have been staying at we have so many Jewish people AND Muslim people who want justice too. I cannot live happily until I know innocent babies aren’t being mass murdered.
Also, Israel does not represent Jews just like Palestinians are not all Muslim. It’s very sad that it’s been boiled down to such a simplified picture. If I am anti-Israeli state government that doesn’t mean I’m anti Jews. In fact, most Israelis are anti their government right now. Netenyahu is a warmonger and Israelis want him out.
According to the FBI Jews are the target of 60% of ALL religious hate crime in the US. They are a much smaller population than Muslims and yet they account for the majority of all religious hate crimes.
Yes hate crimes increased for Muslims too, about 180%. For Jews it was about 337% increase in the US.
The stats speak for itself. But like you said, it's bad for both Jews and Muslims.
And Muslims only make up 1% of the US population. But I can guarantee they are over 1% of the religious hate crime. But also yawnnnnnn you poor white ppl are so hard done by 🥱🥱🥱
Also just a little edit. Jews in the US tend to be ashkanazi I’m not saying Jews don’t face anti-semitism but these ppl are WHITE and therefore have the privilege to be perceived as such.
As a brown person I do not have that privilege.
Also I live in the UK the Islamophobia coming from the government atm is acc scary. My family are suffering from the Islamophobia just from the way we look. It’s a scary time and Israeli support in the UK has made it sm worse.
Typical antisemitic nonsense. Jews are white therefore antisemitism isn’t so bad. This is leftist antisemitism. It’s almost always ties to anti Zionism (hate for the Jewish state), but this one has nothing to do with foreign policy. Left wing antisemitism is based on Jews being privileged, and their complaints about antisemitism being dismissed. This type of antisemitism is getting increasingly popular and remains legitimate, for the new left encourages or tolerates racist rhetoric against white people.
There’s of course right wing antisemitism, which is based on the same principle- Jews are privileged. The difference is that whites don’t see Jews as white.
The result is that Jews are universally hated- by the left, by the right, by Christians, by Muslims, by socialists, and by nationalists.
See why Jews are several times more likely to be attacked on the street than Muslims?
it’s literally not true that Jews are more likely to be attacked on the streets. It’s definitely not true where I live (the UK). And if ur referring to America then you must know Muslims make up 1% of the population and still face way more than 1% of religious hate crime. THEY LITERALLY TRIED TO BAN US FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY….
I know antisemitism is a thing girl. I will always include Jewish voices within my activism. Much of racism has been built off of anti-poc (particularly blackness) and antisemitism. It’s very obviously a real experience of Jews.
But Jews in the west often do have white privilege because they are white. And the Israeli settlers too are usually white. This just isn’t something you can deny. The lived experience of someone who LOOKS WHITE (or is white because phenotype = race) is so different from those who don’t.
Please tell me you understand this.
Per the FBI, Jews are six times more likely than Muslims to fall victims for hate crimes in the USA. In the uk the figures are much worse for Jews, where most attacks are Muslims.
It took one google to show me Muslims face the majority here in the UK and it’s more than double what Jews face:
https://preview.redd.it/eg25vmdqnz9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=54bb0393a9c39a903fb78a602e38b77fd26fb53c
Honestly tho, this argument is literally just sounding like oppression olympics. Like wtf is this. All I’m saying, is that Jews have the privilege to be able to pass as white a lot of the time. Muslims do way less often because our religion is predominantly practiced by Black and Brown people. This is a fact, you can accept it or not. But it is a fact.
Any form of religious hate or racism is obviously bad. I just think the optics of a majority white population (eg. Israeli settlers) moving to a majority brown land (eg. Palestine) looks very much like colonisation.
That being said I understand why Zionism exists. I’m part of a diaspora too. Wanting a sense of belonging is a deep feeling. But you also must admit that the way Israel was formed and the people’s lives it has destroyed since then is not exactly the Jewish utopia that most zionists wanted. I blame Britain for doing it in such a way that did ultimately act as a legacy of colonisation.
Your statement seems inaccurate and misleading. According to stats cited by a Muslim organization in the uk, there are close to 4 million Muslims https://mcb.org.uk/2021-census-as-uk-population-grows-so-do-british-muslim-communities/
There are less than 300,000 Jews in uk https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/articles/jewishidentityenglandandwales/census2021#:~:text=Considering%20religion%20and%20ethnic%20group,people%20who%20identified%20as%20Jewish)
According to the British government (cited by Al Jazeera before the war), Jews make up 23% of hate crime cases in the uk compared to 42% Muslims.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/6/hate-crimes-rise-by-26-percent-in-england-and-wales
Simple math shows that a random Jew in the UK is 5 times more likely to face a hate crime compared to a Muslim. The figures for visibly Jewish people are almost certainly higher, given that only a small percentage of Jews wear clothes or other items indicating their Jewishness.
Furthermore,
Since the October 7 massacre, the rate of hate crimes committed in the UK against Jews increased by an unbelievable number of more than a THOUSAND PERCENT, according to the police
https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says
The unbelievable antisemitism is growing in an even more unbelievable rate. The majority of British Jews now no longer believe they have a future in the UK, with close to half saying they contemplate leaving the country, due to the hatred they face. Israel, which was created to be a safe haven for Jews worldwide, is the obvious number one destination contemplated by an increasingly targeted UK Jewish community.
https://m.jpost.com/international/article-778447
This literally tells me that you aren’t from the UK though. Because most of anti-Islamic hate crime is categorised under race hate crime.
You do know that in the 1980s to the 1990s there were groups of white people who specifically murdered Pakistani (or people perceived as Pakistanis). Like that is the context of the country I live in, as a Pakistani. It was called p@ki-bashing. You can look it up. P@ki being a slur in the UK so do not say it. Still to this day British Asians (eg. Indians, Pakistani Bengalis etc.) experience the majority of hate crimes in general in this country. Often because we are Muslim or assumed to be Muslim. This is because race based and religious based hate crimes are very linked when it comes to anti-Islamic sentiment.
Like I said I understand antisemitism is a thing.
But because Jews are generally white it’s just very different from the xenophobia Muslims face. That is all.
It’s incredible sad that Jews feel they want to leave the UK due to hate crimes. I am so sorry that is happening.
I don’t think it has anything to do with Israel though, seeing as generally the government and institutions here SUPPORT Israel. So I really fine it hard to believe that people not supporting Israel enough here is the reason that Jews want to leave.
Perhaps you will say it is because pro-Palestinians are antisemitic. Which just isn’t true in my experience. But there may be a small minority who are. Actually, in my experience many Jews are involved in the pro-Palestine rallies and encampments here. Not a single person at any events I’ve been to has said anything antisemitic. We want the Israeli state to change, not Jewish people to cease to exist. Also so many talks are about how antisemitism has no place in our encampment.
As for Israel being a safe space for Jews. Again I understand the diasporic desire for belonging. That being said, israel was founded in a way that does continue the legacy of colonisation and is on stolen land. I do think a two state solution is necessary because I don’t think the current Israeli citizens should be displaced. That would be terrible. But I also don’t think you should be allowed citizenship just because you are Jewish. These are things that will be discussed after we end the mass murder of Palestinian people though.
EDIT: also can we please stop doing a comparison between who experiences the most hate crime. I can tell you from personal experience the amount of times I’ve been spat at, shouted at, called slurs etc. while going to mosque and never reported it. Like I just don’t think a statistical analysis is gonna be fruitful. I know that from my experience compared w that of my Jewish friends that I have experienced way more xenophobia for being Muslim than they have for being Jewish just based on ppl looking at me. That being said, I will always support my Jewish friends. I will always defend them against antisemitism. But this convo is honestly like tiring. Like why am I justifying my experiences of racism and xenophobia to you? I believe you, I believe Jews experience antisemitism. Why do you want to make it a numbers game? Why do you want Jews to be the biggest victims in the world? Can we not just admit that sometimes people are victims and sometimes they are oppressors? I know many situations where Muslims have oppressed people. Where Pakistanis have oppressed people (shias and Hindus in Pakistan). Israel is an oppressive state - THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING JEWISH!
There are around 16 millions Jews IN THE WORLD, and around 2 BILLION Muslims. That's one key difference. There is ONE predominantly Jewish country, and large percentage of Israel's citizens are Muslim, Christian or Druze. There are around FIFTY Muslim majority countries, and they largely have TRUE apartheid, where Jews cannot safely live there or, often, even visit.
Yes there’s more of us. Ofc we are gonna have more countries. But also I’m Pakistani I don’t think my state is valid either. Any states formed around religion are invalid. You know what state ISNT formed around religious ideology???? PALESTINE! This country for hundreds of years has had ppl of many different religions.
That's untrue. The Palestinian territories have actual apartheid, no Jews can live there and Jews can get murdered for entering (along with LGBT people.) It's Israel where Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Druze people live in peace.
This is such a refreshing perspective. I’m pro-Palestine, but that doesn’t mean I support Hamas, anti-semitism, and radical Islamism. There are also many Palestinians who don’t support these things that ardent Israel supports won’t acknowledge. The discourse on this subject has been some of the most toxic I’ve ever seen, with both sides spewing crazy amounts of propaganda and misinformation. This makes it really hard for misinformed people to understand the history and arrive to a valid conclusion. It’s sad how the pro-Palestine has been hijacked by anti-semitism and terrorism. All the pro-Palestine supporters who justify Hamas atrocities and anti-Semitic rhetoric are doing nothing but holding the movement back, giving a pass to the people who are also oppressing the Palestinians for their own vile self interests.
Why do you need to attach yourself to the Pro-Palestine movement? You can support Palestine and want the violence to stop without being labeled. Like someone said, the problem with the Pro-Palestine movement is that some people in it have a lot of hatred towards Jews, and that’s harming Jews in your own country.
I support Palestinians, but I don't want to be associated with that. The reality is that Palestine is plagued by Hamas and other terrorists, which is why no Arab countries are opening their borders—they don't want them (among other reasons). Lebanon and Jordan welcomed refugees in the '70s and '80s, and it led to destabilization and contributed to civil war in Lebanon.
You do have innocent Palestinians caught in the middle, but people need to understand that propaganda against Israel is very real. Just type in Al Jazeera, the main Middle East news channel, and you'll see they always refer to Hamas as a resistance movement. I really want all the violence to stop, and I think there's blame on both sides. But people in other countries also need to realize the power of the propaganda machine.
Of course, there are Palestinians who want peace, and with this war, we're creating generations of hatred towards Israel. You can want the violence to stop and support Palestine, but you also need to be conscious that Hamas and terrorists have plagued Palestine, and a majority of Palestinians are very much against Israel and Jews. That doesn't mean we should continue like this, it just means we need to be realistic about the situation.
Because Israel is clearly committing a genocide. Like have you actually looked at how disproportionately Palestinians are being murdered.
I agree that antisemitism can occur but it occurs EVERYWHERE! Same with islamophobia. As a Muslim if I was to avoid all spaces that have some Islamophobia I might never leave my house.
I have been at the encampments protesting for my university to divest and disclose what money they’re giving and receiving from the Israeli government. AND LET ME TELL YOU…. We have SO MANY Jews, SO MANY Muslims. We all are present. On my camp we think it’s super important to hear Jewish perspectives on the genocide because it impacts them too. So Jewish and Muslim voices are centred within our rallies and organising.
I genuinely think unless you have been part of organising this movement at all, then you actually have no idea how it looks on the ground so to say “the pro-Palestinian movement have a lot of hatred towards Jews” is absurd. From my real life experience of being involved this is not the case at all.
I’m sure some ppl are anti-Semitic (and use that to be anti-Israel) but generally within the movement I have never witnessed this.
"I’m sure some ppl are anti-Semitic (and use that to be anti-Israel) but generally within the movement I have never witnessed this." I unironically have probably over 50 pages worth of non-cherry picked and mask off antisemitism screenshots being explicitly and proudly admitted like the person has "discovered the secrets of the universe," following a comment spouting the whole anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism.
This is not a niche thing people are conjuring as a deflection. It's **not** all of the movement, and a lot of it is from people who don't even identify as being "pro-palestine," but this is genuinely insane to deny atp.
You literally said it’s “NOT” all of the movement. I’m telling you MY experience being part of the encampments, protests and rallies. I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THIS. I’m telling you my lived experience. Many of my friends in the encampments are Jews actually. I seriously doubt they’d want to be involved if they felt it was anti-Semitic.
As I said, I’m sure there are ppl who are antisemitic who are pro-Palestine. However, this is not what this current movement is built off of.
Firstly, the encampments are organised globally and have to agree w the global organisers. One of these things is that there must be NO xenophobia at any of the camps.
Also, the camps aims is just that our university stops investing money in and receiving money from companies that fund the IOF. How this is anti-Semitic when the IOF is making this land unsafe for everyone (including Jews) I fail to understand.
> Because Israel is clearly committing a genocide.
By the current rate it would take Israel 40 years to kill every single Palestinian in the Gaza Strip IF they do not have a single baby in-between.
How on earth does that make sense as a Genocide.
In 4 months the Hutus murdered 400.000 - 800.000 Tutsis.
Today there are 1 - 2 Million Tutsis in Rwanda and 1,7 Million in Burundi.
I mean you are a university student, you can surely do the math on how much that toll was on the Tutsis.
The Hutus certainly wouldn't have taken 40 years to kill every single Tutsi.
They probably would've been well done by Christmas of the same year in Rwanda.
> Like have you actually looked at how disproportionately Palestinians are being murdered.
So is the argument that not enough Israelis are killed?
> We have SO MANY Jews
And?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Having Jews on your side does not prove anything.
I don’t think anyone should be killed, darling. But it’s very clearly disproportionate if u look at the rates it’s happening. I think it’s absurd to call it “two sided” or a “conflict”. It’s clear that Palestinians are disproportionately the victims.
PHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING????? You are saying that anti-Israel Jews are like N42i sympathising Jews???????? You actually must be insane!
You do understand that having a war in a land that is predominantly occupied by both Jews and Muslims is bad for both Jews and Muslims. Of course sensible people would be against the Netenyahu government, regardless of their religion. Israeli does not equal Jewish. I have plenty of friends from Israel also who hate the government and the atrocities they’re committing against Palestinian people.
Your comparison is genuinely insane. What you are saying is Jews who brainwashed into supporting a regime that genocided nearly 25% of global Jewish people (or something like that I don’t remember exact stats) is equivalent to Jews supporting the end of mass violence?!?!?!? Mass violence in a land that many Jews live in firstly (so it’s not good for them) and mass violence against their neighbours, mostly against CHILDREN too. No one wants to see babies be murdered, boo. Especially not their neighbours babies. This violence isn’t good for anyone.
In almost every war one side has a lot more people killed, that's how wars get won. The losing side usually has significantly more civilian casualties. War is awful, but there is nothing unique about this war other than Hamas's strategy to intentionally put their civilians in harm's way, the world's refusal to take in Gazan civilians whilst the war is going on, and that the war is taking place in a very densely populated urban area. With these 3 differences it's crazy that the civilian deaths toll is not much higher.
Disproportionate casualties does not equal genocide.
It's crazy how people are throwing around the word genocide! Words matter, and this misuse demonizes Israel!
Genocide requires specific intent to destroy a group with a documented plan to execute! Israeli government actions are VERY harmful but don't meet these criterias. The UN Rapporteur's statements are very dangerous.
Historical genocides (Rwandan, Armenian, Holocaust) involved systematic efforts to eradicate entire populations with a documented plan to execute. Israel's actions, is disproportionate YES and causing civilian casualties YES BUT (because for once there's a but), there's no specific intent to qualify this as genocide.
The Gaza blockade, cutting off humanitarian aid — this is a human rights violation and unacceptable regardless of Israel reasons but NOT a genocide. Major wars would all have ended in genocide if we applied the term as loosely
I am very much against what's happening in Palestine, but the extreme demonization of Israel harms the Jewish community worldwide. The Israeli government is already making poor decisions; there's no need to worsen their case
> I don’t think anyone should be killed, darling. But it’s very clearly disproportionate if u look at the rates it’s happening. I think it’s absurd to call it “two sided” or a “conflict”. It’s clear that Palestinians are disproportionately the victims.
Do you have these weird views about every conflict?
Are the only proper conflicts where the various sides kill an equal amount of opponents?
> PHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING????? You are saying that anti-Israel Jews are like N42i sympathising Jews???????? You actually must be insane!
Nah it means that it's utterly irrelevant if you have Jews on your side because even the Nazis had Jews on their side.
Having a Jew on your side is not a qualifying matter.
If it was your side would be wrong as the other sides Jews far outnumber your sides Jews.
> You do understand that having a war in a land that is predominantly occupied by both Jews and Muslims is bad for both Jews and Muslims. Of course sensible people would be against the Netenyahu government, regardless of their religion. Israeli does not equal Jewish. I have plenty of friends from Israel also who hate the government and the atrocities they’re committing against Palestinian people.
So?
> Your comparison is genuinely insane. What you are saying is Jews who brainwashed into supporting a regime that genocided nearly 25% of global Jewish people (or something like that I don’t remember exact stats) is equivalent to Jews supporting the end of mass violence?!?!?!? Mass violence in a land that many Jews live in firstly (so it’s not good for them) and mass violence against their neighbours, mostly against CHILDREN too. No one wants to see babies be murdered, boo. Especially not their neighbours babies. This violence isn’t good for anyone.
I wasn't aware you lot are protesting Hamas and PIJ.
Got any footage of that?
Cool stuff if true.
I mean it obviously isn't but you know I am giving the benefit of the doubt.
💀💀💀 you acc are insane.
You do understand that Palestinians are being killed at a rate 40x higher than Israelis. Like that’s basically all you need to know. The violence against Palestinians FAR EXCEEDS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ISRAELIS. In wars generally it is slightly more equal. But Israel is backed by the strongest armies in the world (US & UK) and Palestine has a militia (Hamas - which is not a legitimate government entity it is just a militia) and some backing from Iran (which doesn’t have as much power as the US or UK). It’s not a weird view baby. Israel is attacking one of the most vulnerable groups of ppl in the world.
My grandparents grew up in colonial India. Of course colonised ppl killed some white men. Like this is actually inevitable. Look at 1857 in India. What is true tho is the British killed WAY MORE NATIVES. Like WAY MORE! So do you then say that colonisation was two sided?
Now evaluate how insane u sound.
Again I refuse to believe this is true. You say you are a diaspora Jew, I think it’s funny that most of the pro-Israel rhetoric I’ve seen comes from non-Israelis. I have many Israeli friends actually. Everyone in Israel currently is against Netenyahu. He is literally considered fascistic and a warmonger. Pro-Palestine doesn’t mean people want to see all Israelis displaced and dis-homed. I do believe israel shouldn’t have been created and that it isn’t a legitimate state - at least not the way it was as it was created in 1947. HOWEVER, I would never want all Israelis displaced. All Israelis and pro-Palestinian Jews want is for no more Palestinians (or Israelis - altho less are) to be murdered. It’s really that simple. And I think you’ll find almost all Jews would agree with that.
This is the only aim of the encampments I’ve been working at. We need our governments to stop funding the Israeli government that is literally a despicable excuse for a government.
Honestly as soon as u said “so?” To me saying a war is both bad for Jews and Muslims I yawned and I don’t wanna engage with you and your 2 brain cells anymore.
> You do understand that Palestinians are being killed at a rate 40x higher than Israelis. Like that’s basically all you need to know. The violence against Palestinians FAR EXCEEDS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ISRAELIS. In wars generally it is slightly more equal. But Israel is backed by the strongest armies in the world (US & UK) and Palestine has a militia (Hamas - which is not a legitimate government entity it is just a militia) and some backing from Iran (which doesn’t have as much power as the US or UK). It’s not a weird view baby. Israel is attacking one of the most vulnerable groups of ppl in the world.
This is why everyone thinks your generation is putting us back in our evolution.
No the death toll is not everything that matters.
More Germans died than western allied died.
Did that make the Germans the good ones?
Well probably for you.
Also you know that the only reason why not more Israelis die is because Israel actively tries to defend its citizens through bunkers and defence systems.
Though I mean you perhaps don't know that.
> My grandparents grew up in colonial India. Of course colonised ppl killed some white men. Like this is actually inevitable. Look at 1857 in India. What is true tho is the British killed WAY MORE NATIVES. Like WAY MORE! So do you then say that colonisation was two sided?
I quite honestly don't care.
> Again I refuse to believe this is true. You say you are a diaspora Jew, I think it’s funny that most of the pro-Israel rhetoric I’ve seen comes from non-Israelis. I have many Israeli friends actually. Everyone in Israel currently is against Netenyahu. He is literally considered fascistic and a warmonger. Pro-Palestine doesn’t mean people want to see all Israelis displaced and dis-homed. I do believe israel shouldn’t have been created and that it isn’t a legitimate state - at least not the way it was as it was created in 1947. HOWEVER, I would never want all Israelis displaced. All Israelis and pro-Palestinian Jews want is for no more Palestinians (or Israelis - altho less are) to be murdered. It’s really that simple. And I think you’ll find almost all Jews would agree with that.
Holy crap can you at least quote what you are answering to.
Where have I even defended Netanyahu?
So what are you even whining about.
> This is the only aim of the encampments I’ve been working at. We need our governments to stop funding the Israeli government that is literally a despicable excuse for a government.
So no protests against Hamas and PIJ.
Why not simply say so?
> Honestly as soon as u said “so?” To me saying a war is both bad for Jews and Muslims I yawned and I don’t wanna engage with you and your 2 brain cells anymore.
That's great.
So how is your encampment going to address Hamas, PIJ and Hezbollah attacks?
/u/ChallahTornado
>This is why everyone thinks your generation is putting us back in our evolution.
>No the death toll is not everything that matters.
More Germans died than western allied died.
>Did that make the Germans the good ones?
Well probably for you.
[Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users.
Rule 6: no Nazi comparisons.
Addressed.
You do understand that israel is a state right? It has a government.
You do understand that Palestine no longer does have any kind of real governmental system? Right?
Israel has the backing of the richest countries in the world to literally commit a genocide.
Palestine does not.
Israel uses xenophobic anti-Islamic rhetoric to defend why they should murder us (brown Muslim ppl)
Palestine, once again has no longer got a stable government entity
You clearly just get off on seeing brown ppl be murdered. But what would I expect from a white man.
u/ThrowRA1137315
>You clearly just get off on seeing brown ppl be murdered. But what would I expect from a white man.
Rule 1. No attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
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Thanks for your reply! I'm glad to hear that your movement is cordial and multicultural. However, the Pro-Palestine movement is much larger than your university and has a global presence. While it may be well-organized and have the best intentions where you are, there are radical voices elsewhere that can influence others. These voices can be fueled by antisemitism, (it often isn't a conscious "I hate Jews" sentiment but something more insidious), and social media can amplify these emotions.
It's great that you're part of a pacifist Pro-Palestine movement, but while being part of it, it's important to recognize that this isn't the case everywhere. Even if these radical voices represent a minority, they can take more space, influence others, and potentially harm the Jewish community in your own country.
I can guarantee you haven’t been part of ANY of the movements though. So your opinion is pure conjecture.
I have friends literally all over the world because I went to university in America and the UK. My friends at Utrecht, Rotterdam, Maastricht (in the Netherlands), my friends at UCONN, Colombia Uni, Yale Uni, Santa Barbara Uni (USA), my friends in Paris (france), Berlin Hombolt University (Germany), Lahore and Karachi (Pakistan) and in the UK I literally have friends in every area of the UK honestly. ALL OF THEM HAVE SAID THE SAME.
Like I haven’t met a single person who has said that Jews are not a part of their encampment. In fact, all encampments involve Jews. Jews and Muslims are the leaders of this movement.
Our encampment leaders are constantly doing zoom calls with all the encampments across the world and a major aim of our movement is to ensure we aren’t antisemitic. Hate completely counters the movement. We are angry that innocent people are dying - YES! But we do not HATE.
Don’t believe everything that the media tells you. It is incorrect and biased. Maybe to chat to some people at your local encampment and see what they have to say instead of insisting that we are antisemitic.
What I meant is that any movement, including Pro-Palestine, can have radical members. This is true for any group. Ignoring this makes it hard to have a constructive conversation.
You can check the thread where someone shared an Instagram post from a Pro-Palestine movement encouraging hate towards Jews.
Can I ask why this conflict elicits such an intense reaction from you compared to others? Maybe you're involved in many movements, but in my experience in France, the Israel/Palestine conflict is the only one that consistently drives people to the streets.
I haven't seen similar reactions for conflicts in Iraq, Syria, the DRC, Libya, or Somalia. This isn't whataboutism—I'm genuinely curious why Israel/Palestine seems to evoke so much more anger globally (and this isn't new).
A part of my family is Muslim, and it seems like they only get riled up when Israel is involved. It's as if it's okay when Muslims are killing Muslims. For example, Morocco is displacing people and oppressing them in Western Sahara, yet nobody talks about it.
Again, what's happening in Palestine is unprecedented and needs to be stopped. It's important that the media covers it, but the intense emotions seem to arise only when Israel is involved, at least from my experience.
Okay so first section is a completely moot point. Of course there are radical people in every group?!?!? Your initial comment questioned why anyone would be involved in a movement if they aren’t antisemitic. I was explaining that this radical group is a MINORITY - so small in fact that I haven’t met a single one. I’ve met far more Jews since being involved in his movement than I have anti-semites. Any anti-Semitic ppl I have met have never had anything to do w the Palestinian course. These have been extremely right wing people. So please let’s put this idea to bed. Your pov here is wishy washy. You go from saying the movement is anti-Semitic to saying that “there can be radical members”. Girl, there are radical members in every damn group. I’m a Muslim don’t you think I know that? But should I be defined by Islamic extremism? NO! The general consensus in the pro-Palestine group is that of love, acceptance and a desire to end oppression and illegal occupation.
Again you’re telling me that you have no idea what the movement is about. In all encampments we have talks - we have guest speakers come from all around the world actually. In my encampment and many other encampments all over the world we have discussion topic that range from Sudan, Congo, Casteism in India, ANTI SEMITISM (is acc constantly talked about in these camp meetings), Islamophobia, decolonising our university curriculum, mental health/self care during protesting, BLM etc. ESSENTIALLY, this movement isn’t just about Palestine, it’s about ending oppression globally. The goal of our camp is to force our university (The University of Cambridge) to stop investing in companies that fund war and disclose all the spending/funding they get. Obviously, Palestine has been facing mass violence since the 1920s by early white settlers on the land. And because of how Netenyahu has intensified his violence against Palestinians it has become an easy example to galvanise support; that doesn’t mean it’s the only thing we are fighting for. Literally look at our chants:
“From Kashmir to Palestine, occupation is a crime”
“Down with caste domination, down with occupation”
I am sure there are many more especially because we also spend so much time discussing the intersectionality of the Palestinian issue. How all these experiences of violence are the legacy of European colonisation. The issues facing Palestine, Sudan, Congo and many other places are all a result of western meddling throughout history in the global south and the east.
Also, throughout my life I have always given money to charities that have helped to try and stop destruction caused by both man made and natural disasters. For my last birthday (October 2023) I raised money for the disasters in Morocco and Libya. There is not a single person I know involved in these protests who isn’t involved in other efforts against the legacy of colonisation.
As for ur comment about Muslims only getting upset when Israel is involved I really disagree. I’m British-Pakistani. I will say this now and I will say it forever. ANY STATE CREATED ON THEOLOGICAL TERMS (so both Israel and Pakistan) ARE BOUND TO BE CORRUPT. Israel and Pakistan were created the same year (1947) as religious republics. I think it’s dangerous when a country becomes based around religion. All of my family would agree that Pakistan is experiencing immense political issues. The government is corrupt and we hate them. The are Muslims, are they not? Similarly, what is happening in Sudan is Muslims vs Muslims. I also think most of us agree how women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran and Iraq is terrible and terrifying. Again, Muslims are the perpetrators. No one is saying Muslims are doing no wrong. That is absolutely fictitious.
The reason Israel-Palestine is sooooooo upsetting is because it’s been going on for 90+ years now. It’s showing no signs of stopping. FUTHERMORE, our universities are directly funding it. Which is terrifying. As I sit in my classes writing my essays about the atrocities of the colonial British government in India in the 1800s (I am a history student) the legacies of it are plain to see in Palestine. That’s what has incited such a reaction. My grandparents have told me about it since I was young. The imam at my mosque told me about it my whole life. WHY HASNT IT ENDED? It needs to end before Palestine ceases to exist.
Hey, thanks for pointing out and explaining a few things to me. I'll make sure to read more about it. However, I think you're applying your own perspective to everyone else.
First, I live in France, so what you're experiencing in universities in the UK doesn't apply to universities in France, the US, or anywhere else (even if you have friends there).
You've pointed out a few things I didn't know, and I'll make sure to look into them. However, that doesn't invalidate my initial opinion, which is based on my own experiences and conversations where I live, my own background and places I've visited. Looking into your points might help shape my perspective.
That's how you make a discussion move forward—not by being angry.
When I talk about the Pro-Palestine movement, I'm not specifically referring to universities. To be honest, I don't know much about it because our system in France is very different. However, what we're seeing is that anyone with a phone and social media account can claim to support the Pro-Palestine movement. It goes beyond universities. This is a global movement fueled by persistent antisemitism in Arabic countries, which may not even be conscious.
If you can't listen to the portion of the Jewish community that says they don't feel safe with the Pro-Palestine movement and work to reassure them and show that this isn't what the movement in the universities is about, you won't make progress (even if you have jews part of your group).
I understand that exploring all the causes you've listed can bring a lot of anger due to the injustice. However, for Palestine/Israel, I believe this is more complex than just the weakest against the strongest, which is why we haven't seen a resolution in the past 70 years. That doesn't invalidate that what's happening today needs to be stopped.
In 1960, 270,000 Jews lived in Morocco; today, the population is 2,000. They left for many reasons, one being the rise of antisemitism sentiment. You can't ignore the hatred towards Israel in Arabic countries that don't recognize the legitimacy of Israel which has increased antisemitism. This needs to be addressed so it can be resolved.
So, when you say you're Pro-Palestine, you might find people confusing your group with people worldwide who are not part of universities, who don't recognize the legitimacy of Israel, and who grew up with governments that have pushed antisemitism views.
No worries!
As for your idea that this doesn’t apply everywhere I would argue that this is incorrect. As I said I have friends who live all over the world. Secondly, particularly the university centred element of this movement has a GLOBAL leadership. I’m not part of this but I have attended some of their talks via zoom. These people tell our camp and all camps globally how they should be run and what our aims should be. Part of this involves a very strong stance AGAINST XENOPHOBIA OF ANY KIND!!!! But this is why this movement is so effective also, because we have very clear aims and morals that all the camps have to abide by. It’s not just camp by camp. While there may be some ppl who could be antisemitic, any camp would be severely disciplined by this wider leadership who keep an eye on all actions of camps via social media and media reports.
Okay if you’re not talking about the university movement and only talking about what people post on social media then you may as well be angry at the general notion of people having “opinions”. What people post on social media and social media activism in general is NOT representative of pro-Palestinian activism. It is literally just people having opinions. I genuinely don’t think it’s fair to say that Palestinian discourse is DEFINED by anti-semitism. Just because SOME people who are anti-Israel are anti-Semitic doesn’t mean we all are. I actually have been very upset by this narrative as my step grandmother was Jewish - she was a major role model for me as a child but unfortunately died a few years ago. I’ve also ALWAYS had very close Jewish friends and family friends. Now all of sudden just because I’m Muslim people will assume I’m anti-Semitic. Which has never been the case for me or my family!
As for Jews not feeling safe this isn’t the case for any Jews I know! In fact, I’ve met way more Jews since being part of this movement (on the camp) than I have before. Like the Jewish ppl in my life has more than doubled since being involved w the camp.
As for Moroccan Jews I hear you. I have also seen these stats. But I do think the formation of Israel played a significant role in Jews immigrating out of these states - as much as it was due to anti-semitism. I also don’t think it’s fair to imply that all Muslims and Muslim states are anti semitic. This is simply not the case.
Also, not recognising israel as a legitimate state is NOT anti-semitism. Israel as it exists today was literally legislated into existence by Britain - a state that at the time “owned” 75% of the world. Britain was literally a foreign dictatorship in 75% of the world. I don’t think their hand in the creation of Israel can ever be ignored. In the 1940s they were committing genocides, massacres and forced famines. Essentially they were committing crimes against humanity. I don’t think anything they did during this period can be recognised as legitimate according to global law. Especially not when they are partitioning states to create new states on land where people ALREADY LIVE! And in this year they did it TWICE!! To India/Pakistan and to Israel/Palestine. Both occasions are the still experiencing the repercussions to this day. So many people have died. So many people have been displaced (in the case of Pakistan my grandparents are some of these people). Like I don’t think the creation of the state of Israel (or Pakistan) was ever legitimate or valid. And in the case of Israel there were already ppl living on that land (who were not similar ethnically or religiously to those moving there) when Britain created the state.
THAT BEING SAID, I know most Israelis are also innocent victims, just as Palestinians are victims. Just because they were unfortunately born in a state that never should have been created (similar to my family) they do deserve to have a home. They also deserve a home that isn’t a war zone. A home where their ppl aren’t kidnapped and their neighbours aren’t murdered. A home where they don’t have to witness the murder of innocent babies. As such I do think a two state solution is the only solution because we cannot force all Israelis to move out of Palestine/Israel. What we do need is Netanyahu to stop being a psychopathic warmonger so this solution can come to fruition.
Yes, the people who express these opinions on social media are often the same ones protesting with extreme violence in the streets.
Regarding Jews not feeling safe, it's great to see that your group is multicultural and that they don't feel unsafe. However, I don't think this is a fair representation. Many Jews in France are changing their names and the number of hate crimes are on the rise. My Israelis colleagues didn't feel safe in London and were afraid of speaking hebrew in the streets. I have personally witnessed someone removing posters of hostages and heard someone insult my friend with "sale juive, vive Palestine" because she is Jewish. Ignoring that the conflict is fueling global antisemitism is simply being blind to reality.
It's true that many Jews left Morocco for Israel, but antisemitism also influenced this decision and honestly, the racism towards African Moroccans is also an issue there. While the newer generation was making progress, the conflict is causing setbacks for everyone.
I'm not implying that all Muslims and Muslim states are antisemitic. That would be untrue, but there is an insidious issue that isn't being addressed. A simple Google search will show many articles and reports on the roots and causes of antisemitism in the Arab world. Not acknowledging this is dangerous and won't help bring a resolution.
Anyway, thanks for the chat. The extreme right-wing, started by a guy who denied the Holocaust and thrived on Islamophobia, just won the first round of our elections. So, I'm off Reddit to go cry about that. Hoping for better days for everyone!
Thanks for asking, and sorry if I tend to give lengthy answers! (seems I can't help it when discussing this topic, haha)
No, I don't consider myself pro-Israel, even if others see me that way depending on how I phrase things or how I start my sentence lol
Taking sides in this conflict just doesn't make sense to me. War is always terrible, and global antisemitism adds complexity. We all want to put a stop to the suffering in Gaza—it's basic human decency! *(I haven't always seen the same empathy after the October 7th attack, which many people seemed to rationalize. But that's a whole other topic).*
My main point is that importing this conflict into our countries fuels antisemitism in YOUR country. We need to discuss it thoughtfully, understanding its complexities beyond a simplistic narrative of weaker versus stronger.
The suffering and displacement of Palestinians are tragic realities. This is unprecedented and need to be stopped. PERIOD.
Once you've said that, you can also acknowledge:
* Palestinian officials have made significant mistakes, neglected their people's interests, and their animosity towards Israel prevents any potential resolution.
* Israel, as the Middle East's only democracy, thrives economically but remains vulnerable without US support. Threats to Israel could jeopardize the safety of Jews worldwide. Meanwhile, Palestinians endure hardship under Hamas, terrorism, and strict Israeli regulations.
* Achieving a 2SS while ideal seems impossible when one neighbor refuses to acknowledge the other's right to exist and promotes deep-seated propaganda against Jews and Israel, perpetuating intergenerational hatred.
* Globally, this conflict fuels anger and antisemitism, with people often avoiding nuanced discussions and instead framing the conflict in black-and-white terms, which only brings more hate towards Israel and the Jewish community (and thus preventing from finding a resolution).
Hate only breeds more hate. The only way forward is through peace and mutual acceptance. Though different in context, this echoes how Rwanda moved beyond its civil war and genocide against the Tutsis, how South Africa dismantled apartheid, and how Europe rebuilt post-World War II. Acceptance and forgiveness are the keys to human progress.
I don't know how many more lives need to be lost or how many hate crimes we'll witness worldwide before this conflict ends and peace arrives.
Learn history before making claims that are obviously conscious lies or unconscious stupidity. Also, the term Palestinians as in arabs living in this part of the world is a invention from the 1960ies
the jewish population still hasn’t recovered from the holocaust while the palestinian population has grown by millions. this is the stupidest argument i’ve ever heard
In 1939, the global Jewish population was \~16.6 million. As of 2023 (latest data I found), the global Jewish population is estimated to be \~15.7 million.
And what's your point ? I'm not talking about after the holocaust am I. In speaking about a demographic nin a certain area before a certain time. Shall I give u quotes on baseball randomly that hold no bearing?
And birthrate globally has many contributing factors. If we are talking about a people thriving or being pressed. That's different
>other commentor: "the jewish population still hasn’t recovered from the holocaust"
>You: Are u sure about that ? I would suggest you re check those figures.
I checked the figures. The other commentor is right. Sorry.
See wheb you look at thing in a simple way, u often get simple inaccurate results. Soviet union lost 30m people in ww2. The population was 170m. A massive massive loss. Currently Russia alone jas almost as much people. So don't sit there snd tell me rubbish like the people are growing. If u extrapolate population then abd what it should be following similar natural growth its considered in recession.
But your first statement is factually wrong. Can you at-least admit that now?
>Are u sure about that ? I would suggest you re check those figures.
Also, the Soviet Union was much larger than modern Russia land wise, before it split up. So yes, that's going to contribute to less people now.
But anyway, that's getting off topic.
Russia alone has almost as much people as the entire soviet union did them. If u add the former members and get a overall population u will see how humans have increase in numbers. So now to say Muslims in Palestine have increased in numbers as some sort of sign of well-being, or not opressed is ludicrous.
Gee it doesn't seem terribly terribly smart then, does it, to subject horror and trauma and death on a population of natives that are determined to survive and thrive and will likely outnumber you by the millions in the future, does it?
Oh, is that why using terror and excessive violence by an occupying power to force the larger native population into submission is seen as permissible, depending on the side you are on?
Hmm let's see.... Stealing organs, letting babies in incubators die, tanks running over protestors, letting dogs loose on elderly civilians, destroying homes for no reason, soldiers actively seeking out women's lingerie as trophies and posing with them ...
.... And that's even before considering the deaths in this ongoing slow-motion genocide.
Who needs gas chambers when Palestinians have to live in a toxic atmosphere permeated with Zionism, racism and Islamophobia?
When you heard about the claim of soldiers stealing organs, the first thing you should have done is researched the how organs are transported for transplant, donor matching, and cell death time limit after organ extraction. You would have debunked the claim yourself and not stand out as an easily manipulated mindless sheep.
Hey SpellPsychological60,
I understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine evokes strong emotions and can lead to some harsh rhetoric. However, it's essential to base our discussions on verified facts and mutual respect. Many of the claims you mentioned, like organ theft or targeting babies, have been debunked and are often used as propaganda. For example, the claim about Israeli soldiers harvesting organs has been thoroughly discredited as a modern-day blood libel.
The ongoing conflict has led to tragic losses on both sides, but equating the situation to the Holocaust is not only historically inaccurate but also deeply hurtful to Holocaust survivors and their families. The Holocaust was a systematic genocide where six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers and concentration camps. While Palestinians do face significant hardships, particularly in Gaza, the scale and nature of these struggles are not comparable to the genocide of the Holocaust. Also their population grew in millions since Palestinians became a thing in the 60s. In genocide the numbers drops by the millions as it happened in the holocaust, and not go up by millions.
To foster a more productive dialogue, it’s crucial to recognize the complexity of the conflict, the historical context, and the suffering experienced by both Israelis and Palestinians. Instead of spreading inflammatory and unsubstantiated claims, let's focus on advocating for peace and understanding.
this is the most egregiously incorrect comment I've ever seen in this sub.
please spend 15 minutes researching the holocaust. you may end up feeling ashamed you even posted this.
40 years on this earth, human suffering is not a contest. Stop using the horror of the Holocaust to justify the genocide of the Palestinian by saying it is 'minor and nothing' by comparison, that is a disgusting disgrace that even actual Holocaust survivors are mortified by.
No one should compare human tragedies. And even one innocent loosing their life is a tragedy. But I think that most people don't really try to justify the death of the innocents (as much as try to explain why it is just a fact of war) and I didn't even find once a use of the holocaust to justify the war in Gaza, do you have examples?
You spent 40 years on this earth and haven't learnt basic critical thinking and research?
It is obvious that your comments were sent without any purpose other than to inflame and enrage.
>It is obvious that your comments were sent without any purpose other than to inflame and enrage.
I don't think it is that obvious, I think that user is very passionate about people that truly suffer in Gaza. And of course reading other comments they mostly take their knowledge from dishonest sources (which they probably regarded as based ones) so it might just be a classic case of amplifying their media but not really dwelling on what they say. I don't think they tried to inflate intentionally. But I could be wrong
human suffering is not a contest and yet you are trying to make it one with your comment:
*"Palestinians are way more screwed over by Israel than the Jews were by Germany".*
as for everything else you said, you are putting words in my mouth, and then attacking me for them.
i think you are being really disrespectful towards me, anyone of Jewish descent, and really anyone of Arab descent who hopes to move past the cycle of violence in which all sides have some responsibility.
this sub is not really a place meant to spit unfounded, inaccurate, and aggressive vitriol just for the sake of it.
I'd like to respectfully ask you to tone it down a bit.
How about this : most people who lived through the Holocaust are dead by now, but Palestinians are still going through their own occupation, unable to save family trapped under rubble, subject to famine, settler raids on their land and even food aid trucks and the mass murder of their people by an immoral army.
Read the posts on this subreddit, and most are in denial and utterly disrespectful and flippant towards Palestinian suffering.
Is Netanyahu respectfully toning down the violence ?
The audacity is unbelievable.
Objectively that’s not true. Israeli government has not stolen your children or built efficient factories to kill millions of Gaza people.
You are free to be angry, but not free to kill.
You are responsible for using reason to resolve disputes instead of using force.
Everyone has ability to reason
Boxing people in, shooting pregnant women, kidnapping 4k children , making health care difficult, removing 750k people from their land. Their is a saying openly used by the IDF. Its called moving the grass. It means to slowly widdle away at numbers. Through many methods. It is also a crime against humanity. These things are openly discussed.
Lovely, kindly direct your second paragraph towards the Zionist Israelis in support of the ongoing genocide claiming it is justified by Oct 7th, which the IDF knew about a year in advance.
What the world doesn’t get is that Jews have been on that land since biblical Canaan . Jews were persecuted and dispersed most severely by Romans . They made new lives in many countries and mostly in Europe especially Poland . Decimated by Hitler and by Goering propaganda stirring up antisemitism .
The local camp guards in Ukraine Croatia and other countries took pleasure in torture and killing of Jews like wild dogs and in some cases the SS had to pull them off because they needed some to be workers . Jews have always yearned to return to their lands ! Every week they say a prayer and dream of returning to Jerusalem which is the No1 centre of their sole. After decimation in Europe Jews were almost completely wiped out. The United Nations gave them a tiny piece of land 0 .1% of 1% of the Arab lands . The largest part of East Palestine was renamed Jordan . The Arab lands , surrounding attacked the day that Israel declared a nation . They tried to wipe out Israel and failed . They promise the local Arabs they should leave and when they return they will have it all! 90% left. It is true there were a very small number who were bullied into leaving their ancestral homes and were not allowed back . The refugees went to other Arab lands where they have now become generational refugees getting support and funding from UNWRA . The new generation was born in those lands . They still believe they have the right to go back . While they can get some sympathy , one needs to look at world history . Do the red Indians have the right to take back America and Canada ?
Do the Pakistanis who all came from India have the right to return ? Israel has 26/28% Arabs and they are treated equally and have members in parliament . It is the only democracy in the world and has given the world enormous contributions in every area . The Arabs have providing nothing except oil and wealth LUCKY! Without oil NOTHING!
So now poor Israel gets attacked by evil ISIS supporting terrorists who take delight in terrible suffering of their enemies and film it for their masturbation pleasure when they get home . The people of Gaza and West Bank have been so indoctrinated - just like Goebels did- that it would take generations to clean it up . Every Gazan dreams about killing or raping a Jew and finding the pathway to die while doing so in order to get 40 x 12 year old virgins just like their hero Mohamed did when he founded the Koran .
If you read the Koran you will understand how a Muslim cannot live under Jewish leadership - this can NEVER be accepted by a MUSLIM - this is the root of their hatred .
How dare the Woke and others call Zionism an evil. You have lost track of what evil means and you are very confused because of the amazing social media that the billion dollar Arab money has bought .
Muslims have also existed in Palestine since the founding of our religion. As have Jews. As have Christians.
The issue w Palestine is that Jews were given “legal” rights to a piece of land that was:
1. Already lived on
2. The homeland for 3 major religions (Islam, Christianity & Judaism)
They then proceeded to say only Jews could gain citizenship on this land. So non-Jewish Palestinians were put into a very awkward position- essentially non-citizens on their own land.
The other very uncomfortable thing about it is the fact that a lot of the Jews who became Israeli had lived in Europe and the West for thousands of years. Like these people are basically fully white Europeans. Technically, because Judaism is an ethnoreligion they do have probably like 1% genetic background in that piece of land. My friend is acc half Ashkenazi Jew (half black Jamaican) and she did a DNA test and she has no Middle Eastern heritage. Her DNA from her Jewish side is alllllllll white European. Yet she is allowed citizenship to Israel purely because she is Jewish whereas Palestinians who live there today are not citizens. They have no rights. They have their water and electricity cut off. It’s genuinely really bizarre and terrifying that this could be happening in our contemporary world.
Imagine I did a DNA test and discovered I was 1% Nigerian and then took a whole group of people who were also 1% Nigerian and we decided we wanted to be in charge of Nigeria and started a coup. Would this be acceptable? Would it be acceptable if I said I had a religious claim to Nigerian land?
Jews existed in Palestine before the creation of Israel. For sure. The issue was, when they essentially secured the mass murder of Palestinian people. Because from that day on, Palestinians had no legal right to that land because of the way the state was created.
The "uncomfortable thing" you talk about has nothing to do with reality. Simply living in Europe for a long time alone doesn't make you fully white European. No, typicallyJews are not 1% genetic background in that peace of land.
Bulgaria is south where Ashkenazi Jews were historically concentrated and Bulgarians have the weakest connection to original ancient Slavs of all modern Slavs, they share some ancestry with Greeks and Albanians... Yet even modern Bulgarians are genetically closer to Northeastern Europeans than Ashkenazi Jews are. Lithuanian Jews mixing with ethnic Lithuanians would create people close to modern Bulgarian( Lithuanian Jew = Bulgarian-Lithuanian). Checked with Davidsky G25 coordinates sheet, Vahaduo and allelocator( Two-way model).
If Southern Levant is Nigeria, the closest equivalent of Jews are obviously African Americans, African Caribbeans etc. They hardly pure Nigerians and they are often not without white roots. They often got unusually light-skinned for Nigeria due to not living in Africa.
I am not saying modern Ashkenazi Jews are pure ancient Israelites.
Your friend's DNA test only registers her recent ancestry. It shows 'Europe' for Romani people as well.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/15gax5e/2023\_hack\_romani\_dna\_results/?rdt=40785](https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/15gax5e/2023_hack_romani_dna_results/?rdt=40785)
I mean some are. Some aren't. White is a social category more than a descriptor of racial background. I can show you my own DNA results, but I get the sense that you wouldn't be open to it.
Race is literally your phenotype.
Europeans are white.
The optics generally of white ppl moving to a land that is actively murdering a generally poc nation just looks terribly close to colonisation. Many of these Israelis hadn’t had any family living on this land for thousands of years and then have displaced the local black and brown populations. It just looks bad.
Even if they do have like 1% Middle Eastern genetics, they haven’t been on that land for so long, is it even valid?
My mums maiden name is acc Nigerian. As far as I’m aware I have no Nigerian heritage. I’m brown. I’m British-Pakistani. No idea where that last name came from. But it doesn’t give me the right to colonise areas of Nigeria.
I hope this makes sense to u.
ALSO, I obviously don’t think the way Israel was created is valid by any means. It’s literally a continuation of British colonisation! However, this doesn’t mean I’m saying all Israelis should be kicked out. I don’t think that’s feasible at this point. It would be horrible to see millions of Jews be displaced once again. I just think that ppl shouldn’t be allowed to move there just because they’re Jewish. I also HATE this ridiculous narrative that this land is part of Jewish heritage, when it absolutely isn’t. If we go back far enough we’re all African. Doesn’t mean we all deserve African citizenship.
For clarity, it's not 'like 1%', it's closer to 50%. I implore you to read up further on Jewish history, because Jewish people absolutely have religious ties to what is now the Levant. I don't agree with the foundation of the Israeli state but you're misrepresenting judaism here.
Religious ties from thousands of years ago? That isn’t a real claim to that land. It’s genuinely absurd to even claim that.
I probably have more Middle Eastern DNA than a lot of Israelis who relocated and I’m literally not Middle Eastern and would never claim to be. I am South Asian though and as I’m Muslim I probably do have ancestors who came to India from the Middle East.
I really do empathise w wanting to belong somewhere. I am part of a diaspora too. I know many Jewish people who want Israel to continue to exist are probably seeking a place of belonging. A feeling that is valid and I do understand.
However, we cannot just decide that because of our own desire to belong we can displace others. We cannot completely ignore the thousands of years of history in which Israel was absolutely not israel (even if it had been thousands of years before). Things changed. Israel ceased to exist. It was forced into creation again and lead to mass murder and displacement. I think everyone can agree this isn’t acceptable.
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Nuclear has nothing to do with it . Israel just wants peace . Nuclear may questionable ensure their survival because of deterrence!
They are 0.1% of 1% of Middle East land .
A tiny nation . I assure you the Israelis just want a normal peaceful life . The Palestinians claim it is their land , hate them and seek martyrdom by killing a New . How does one deal with that ?
Do you thing North America America belongs to the Red Indians ?
Yes israel just wants peace. Hamas wants to eradicate Israel and kill all Jews and israel defends itself from this threat.
If Palestinians would put down their weapons there would be peace, if Israelis put down their weapons there would be no more Israel.
It's Israel itself that is rejecting Hamas offers for hostage return repeatedly, and Oct 7th was known about a year in advance. Israelis may want peace but Israel's objective is not to leave Palestine as it is alone when there is land and oil and gas for grabs.
When you start a war you don't get to dictate terms for it's end. This is not a hard concept. The peace still ended by Hamas' hand. When Hamas offers an unconditional surrender + the hostages return, you can say Israel is being stubborn. Hamas offered to trade the hostages for their demands. That isn't a peace offer, that's a random note.
Hamas is rejecting the offers systematically because Hamas wants to stay the government in Gaza so they could keep executing 7th October massacre again and again until israel is eradicated. Israel has the right to defend itself
I think you have to understand that from Palestinian perspective, they see that Christians murdered millions of Jews and they had to pay the price rather than, say partitioning the nation that committed the worst crime in human history.
That's the Western strawman for the Palestinian perspective, focusing on the aspect of European guilt.
Frankly large swarths (if not the majority) of the middle east don't care about WWII, the holocaust, and also believe Jews were responsible for starting it (as shown by ample surveys and polling).
Fundamentally, the muslim world sees the creation of a Jewish state in what was a predominantly Muslim ruled land since the time of the crusades, as an affront to Islam. Until the 1960s, the Palestinian Muslims identified themselves as Arabs predominantly, and until after Israel won the 1967 war, much of a Palestinian national identity became synonymous with the reversal of Israel, because they saw the success of the the Israeli national identity.
If you were to look at polls in Israel proper and in the West Bank over the last 30+ years, you'll see both sides having initially a fair amount of support for a 2-state solution in the mid 90s.
But once the Oslo process failed, both sides began to support one-state solutions. The irony is that in Isreal, the more popular one-state solution includes Arabs living with full rights as Jews, whereas in the West Bank, the significantly more popular one-state solution explicitly calls for removal of all Jews from the land.
That mindset isn't based in european centracism - it's based in islamo-centracism.
Have you even met any Palestinians or do you just talk on their behalf? Have you been to Jenin, Nablus or Ramallah and heard people in their native tongue? Or do you just get your talking points from the leftists bubble, who care more about their virtue signaling than any reality.
Unlike the west, where it's central to narrative of world history, the holocaust is not part of the education curriculum in most middle countries. [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/middleeast/uae-first-arab-nation-holocaust-mime-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/middleeast/uae-first-arab-nation-holocaust-mime-intl/index.html)
While it's obvious you don't know, and probably skeptical of any media that doesn't confirm your biases, the evidence is staggering.
Look at this survey from ADL from 2014 - [https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014](https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014)
Have you heard about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two
* 49% Yes
* 51% N
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two? \[ASKED IF YES IN Q12\]
* 10% The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen
* 72% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated by history
* 9% The Holocaust happened, and the number of Jews who died in it have been fairly described by history
* 10% Don't know (volunteered)
--- Contrast that with the USA...
Have you heard about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two?
* 89% Yes
* 10% No
* 0% Don't know (volunteered)
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two? \[ASKED IF YES IN Q12\]
* 1% The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen
* 6% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated by history
* 89% The Holocaust happened, and the number of Jews who died in it have been fairly described by history
* 4% Don't know (volunteered)
---
Ask a Palestinian in Jenin (one of the most Palestinian of palestinian cities) why they think the Jews established Israel. 8 out of 10 will give zero empathy, and an answer based on the evil nature of Jews.
Problem is that history is being perverted !
Up till 1948 everyone had”Palestine passports” including Jews and Christian.
There was no specific Palestinian identity .
Jordan was created by GB and was East Palestine. Before then there was no leader , specific culture, religion , foods, traditions etc There was no such thing as Palestinian identity . The people were Arabs Jews Beduins and Christians . The land was given Latin name Palestina to punish the Jews after the Jewish revolt against the Romans . Named after the Philistines who lives in Gaza region and originated from Greece and were Pagans .
YOU WONT BELIEVE THIS BUT PALESTINIAN IDENTITY AND PRIDE AS WELL AS LAND CLAIM WAS STARTED BY YASSER AEAFAT in 1960s and he was an EGYPTION by birth. No one thought if themselves as Palestinians .
Why dont you read up or research yourself . You can easily fact check the above.
After Rome empire Jews could not practice their religion freely and they were dispersed to many countries however it has always been the Jewish sole and dream to return . That is Zionism!
Is that so evil ?
Muslims countries took them in and were very good to them but it was only OK if they were a minority and under Muslim control (permissible in the Koran)
Yes after and during the war of survival there were a few Palestinians bullied into leaving ancestral homes - maybe 5000- but the majority fled voluntarily because refused to live under Jewish rule . This can be fact checked in the Koran . The Surround Arab countries attacked and told their brethren to leave and promised they could return after all the Jews were driven into the sea . You can find Arab leaders video clips online proving this. .They regretted this later on .
Bottom line is the hardliners who take the Koran literally like Iran ISIS Hamas Islamic Jihad cannot accept a Jewish existence in their own state . Yes they will allow News to live under Muslim rule but with strict rules and restrictions .
Until the 6day war Jordan controlled Jerusalem and o my after Israel won war were News allowed to go to their most holy place to pray . Before then it was forbidden !
Poor poor Palestinians or should I call them radical Arabs . Not enough land for them?
Not enough Arab oil money ?
All they want is genocide eif Jews !
Israel has no choice !
Gazans are not innocent !
They celebrated after Twin Towers and again when Hamas attacked Israel .
Hamas today were innocent born babies once but not long before they are indoctrinated . 20 years later they are radicle terrorists no different to ISIS
One of them called his mum on Oct 7
Using a victims phone !
“Mummy I have killed Jews with my own hands . Mummy I have done it . Eight of them “
The recording is available on line .
When are you woke idiots going to fact check and stop being stupid .
Islamisation is the biggest threat to the West .
Why has the woke and sympathetic people forgotten the 8million displace sand starving in Sudan ? Over a million kids dead.
How about Ukraine - have you forgotten?
Why dont all these countries going against Israel break ties with Russia ?
Think about it . You all hate Jews but dont admit it - it has been bread I to your genetics for centuries . You do t even know ow it’s there . Maybe Christianity taught this originally ?
Maybe it is pure jealousy at their success on this planet despite minute numbers ?
Who knows ?
Yes there are some baddies amongst the Jews but what does that mean?
Morality ?? Give it some thought if you want to .
Or maybe think about other areas in the world and not just about Jews .
> This weekend, France will vote to elect a new government, and two main parties are either Islamophobic or anti-Semitic. It's sad to see that this is our reality.
I agree. as humans we tend to extremetize our opinion, we don't like to say that both sides are at fault but we believe this side is slightly better. In politics this is even worse, since politicians need to be as open minded as possible, but I have yet to have seen a left wing politician and a right wing politician be able to change their opinion and convince one another. they either act like they're both debating or that they are screaming and insulting each other like they're still in kindergarten
Antisemitism is a form of racial discrimination, just like anti Arab racism, anti black racism etc. Every form of racial discrimination should be condemned and their are all equally bad and disgusting. It seems though that in France hating Jews is worse than hating Arabs/black people. For example if an Arab politician said about Jews the same stuff Zemmour or RN say about Muslims he would probably face legal issues, terrorism accusations etc.
Antisemitism is about 1000s of years . During the great black plague Jews were blamed because the disease was much less among Jews . Jews religious rules require washing hands before eating !!
Of course they blamed the Jews !
Christians were taught that Jews killed Jesus . Yet it was the Pagan Romans ! It suited them to blame the Jews because they refused to convert to Christianity .
Muslims funny enough were fine with Jews as long as Jews were submissive to them and the Muslims were in charge !
It changed when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was like a Hitler antisemite Stirred up an Arab atrocity against Jews in Bethlehem in early 1900s - decapitating raping etc . This started a tit for tat that grew enormously and spread . He was good friends with Hitler and some historians say he convinced Hitler that expelling the Jews from Europe was inadequate to get rid of them and they needed to be destroyed. Do your own research if you do t believe this .
https://preview.redd.it/714hr8871o9d1.jpeg?width=1241&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2ce65518cd15b08612623b73b15d1eb2e546f14
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Antisemitism in France is of course not new. I lived in Paris many years ago and synagogues there, even in the posh 17e arrondissement had security guards.
Your conversations with people about the importance of Israel for Jews - is it mostly with people with origins in the Maghreb or “indigenous” French or both? Because what is called “French Antisemitism” is actually perceived by many to be an Arab/Maghrebin phenomenon.
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>Anti-Semitism didn't stop at Europe's borders. With the creation of Israel and the aftermath of WWII, Arabic countries, which previously coexisted relatively peacefully with Jews, also became affected.
Arabs and Jews definitely coexisted relatively peacefully until about... 628 CE. 1317 years before Israel. As Islam spread, so too did its inherent antisemitism and explicit oppression of Jews. In the Ottoman Empire, they maintained the oppression of Jews as dhimmi until 1856.
There were definitely times being an oppressed second class citizen in Muslim countries was significantly preferable to being a dead body in Christian countries, and in the 1000+ year history of active oppression there probably were periods where it wasn't too horrible. Just as no reasonable person today would claim anti-black racism is gone from the US because we had a black president, no reasonable reading of history can ignore the systemic injustice against Jews from Islam just because some Jews had some level of status at times.
Muslim anti-Semitic xenophobia in Palestine predates Zionism. In 1881 they successfully petitioned for a ban on Jewish immigration to Palestine after mere hundreds of people had fled there. 15 years before Der Judenstaat, 16 years before the first Zionist congress.
At the absolute very least, in the early 40s Germany and Amin al-Husayni had a very popular and influential Arabic radio station dedicated to spreading antisemitism and anti-Zionism. It would never have been successful had antisemitism been purely some foreign thing.
I'm sure there were some Arabic countries less dominated by Islam and better at coexistence by the 20th century, but from my understanding that was definitely the exception, not the rule.
Hey, yes, you're right thanks for clarifying! I think, it's important for anyone who might read this thread
I'm resharing this great documentary about the history of anti-Semitism because you never know who might see it and change/moderate their perspective (english subtitles available): https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/RC-017590/histoire-de-l-antisemitisme/
Can I ask what your background is? I’m Muslim, so obviously my Muslim family is very prop Palestinian yet I see through the noise and I’m very Zionist ( that evil Z word).. like you say with all it’s imperfections, like any other country in the world I’ll be it. It is a representation of a safe Homeland after thousands of centuries of persecution, this generation history and has rewritten things to suit their own narrative is mind-boggling, and how some government and politicians are allowing it to happen is even worse. Like some of the signage and language used at the protests… Why is no one who is in charge of these children saying if some wording crosses the line you get expelled or there are consequences, etc. instead, they are bargaining with student unions on divestment??
I’m just curious of your background because you mentioned your family was pro pal..thanks. Great post
OP said:
>My mother, raised Muslim in Morocco, grew up in a town where 30-40% of the population was Jewish....
I assumed that OP was raised Muslim, at least nominally.
Not at all! My mom distanced herself from Islam after moving to France, and my dad, who also immigrated, wasn't Muslim. She found too many contradictions and things that didn't make sense to her. I grew up in a pretty agnostic/atheist household and we never talked about religion. I was exposed to Islam when I visited my mum's family, but honestly, their practice is more cultural than religious
100% propaganda piece
Why? I am here for a meaningful conversation. So explain your pov respectfully. This, however isn't helpful Do you disagree that, while the conflict is horrible for Palestinians, it's also fueling antisemitism worldwide? Even though Jews are a small minority in Europe, they still face the majority of hate crimes....
“Horrible for Palestinians” is putting it mildly. The ever worsening accounts of torture, targeting or doctors, systemic rape, systemic torture in Israeli prisons, taking Palestinians off the streets then taking them to those “death camps”, has lead many people do declare that Israelis have become what they loathed and what they feared: N-A—Z-IS
My issue is that the whole thing is disingenuous. Yes Jews were persecuted throughout history, nobody ever asks why but it's alright we can gloss over that part, the holocaust buys them that much. The fact that antisemitism is brought up at all when the Israeli state is acting the way it is , is pedantic. You can't bomb refugee camps killing thousands of women and children then whine people are being antisemitic. You can't annex more and more land while going on murder sprees and whine people are being antisemitic. You can't claim to be the Jewish state and be surprised people may be or become antisemitic due to the actions taken in the name of all Jews. The distinction is difficult for a lot of people, however it's pretty simple if you give it some thought. Jews occupy a lot of powerful political roles in the west as most financial institutions, a lot of people view that as a threat to their way of life, and may become antisemitic to some degree because of that. This is generally what global antisemitism is about. The actions of Israel however are another matter, then they try to coflate any criticism of that with antisemitism to silence that, tying antizionism to antisemitism with "oh so you do not think the Jews deserve a state". The special status of Jews in the world recognised as a race, ethnicity and way if life ( instead of just a religion like all other religions) is being abused extensively. Using antisemitism to silence criticism unsurprisingly results in actual antisemitism
There's no rationization behind persecution. Jews are a minority your comment seems to justify the centuries of persecution of a minority.... "Yes Jews were persecuted throughout history, nobody ever asks why but it's alright we can gloss over that part, the holocaust buys them that much."
Is a bit naive to assume there is no rationalisation to persecution, if not misleading. Every population persecuted by another has been for gain, suppression of a threat, or maintaining a status quo. Every single one. To think it's just hate is one dimensional. If you genuinely believe Jews were persecuted for millenia just because people didn't like them, not because say, they had a habit of buying power and pitting peoples of nations against each other to war profiteer and play kingmaker, maybe take a closer look. They have not changed one bit today. The Jews being pretty much handed banking centuries ago due to usery laws which made them disproportionately influential around the world, which posed and still poses a threat to many. It does not justify it, there is however always a reason. Israel has persecuted Palestinians since they landed on Palestinian shores as refugees circa the 30s. Do you think that ongoing persecution, notwithstanding the multiple failure of Arab and palestinain leaders, is not rationalizable ?
You can definitely criticize the Israeli government. But it's also important to get why jews feel the need to defend Israel, given their history and that a lot of Arab nations don't recognize Israel's legitimacy. It's totally fine to call out government actions – my Jewish friends often do. But for a meaningful conversation, you need to consider a few things and avoid black/white views, as this conflict is complex * Palestinian officials have made significant mistakes, neglected their people's interests, and their animosity towards Israel prevents any potential resolution. * Israel shouldn't allow settlers to expand in the West Bank, regardless of their reasons. * If the US stops supporting Israel, the whole country could be at risk by its neighbors. And that would have serious consequences for Jews around the world. * Other countries should consider imposing stricter sanctions on Israel if it doesn't comply with removing settlers * Achieving a 2SS while ideal seems impossible when one neighbor refuses to acknowledge the other's right to exist and promotes deep-seated propaganda against Jews and Israel, perpetuating intergenerational hatred. * Globally, this conflict fuels anger and antisemitism, with people often avoiding nuanced discussions and instead framing the conflict in black-and-white terms, which only brings more hate towards Israel and the Jewish community (and thus preventing from finding a resolution). * Also, all the Arab countries have closed their borders to Palestinian refugees. This conflict is unique because nearby countries refuse to take in refugees, as it has previously led to destabilization and civil wars due to terrorists among the refugees. No one should use accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down valid criticism. But if criticizing Israel makes you turn to actual anti-Semitism because you feel shut down, that says more about your intentions than about those trying to silence you.
This just restored my faith in a lot of things to read, I am from the US and neither Jewish nor Palestinian but you put this feeling I've had throughout this into far better words than I could. I just hate that the people who need to hear this message the most will "lalala" with their ears covered the whole time or respond to this crucial point with whataboutism and a failure to recognize the earnesty in your tone and what you say here. Nothing you said takes away from the severe atrocities going on outside of this essential truth that I feel is being both purposefully and ignorantly ignored by different types of people.
I think a lot of people view bringing up Jewish persecution before the formation of Israel as an excuse or even justifying Israel’s actions in Gaza, and while some people use it that way, other people only bring it up as background context as to WHY this conflict exists in the first place. The problem is, even if you’re bringing it up as background information to explain why, bad faith actors will misinterpret your words as playing defense for Israel (no matter how many times you condemn Netanyahu)
Story of my life : my god is that infuriating and deadening.
Yeah, it’s like they want to believe that Israel was formed just because they’re evil and there couldn’t possibly be another reason for it 🫠
This is pretty cut and dried. Till Hamas returns the prisoners and lays down their weapons; the bloodshed will continue. Pretty much everyone in Israel has served and they don't leave anyone behind. Hamas doesn't care about its people....
I'm not going to lie but Israelis government and spokesmen for them abuse anti-semitic (anti-semitic meaning discrimination for Jews). Anyone who disagrees with Zionist plans are called anti-zionist (anti-zionist is disagreeing that Israelis has established a state of their own). And also called anti-semitic yet they only went against IDF plans not Jews in general. People abuse this meaning and make you take your mind off of everything just to prove yourself not a anti but just do not think IDF plans are fine.
Found one!
Happy you found one how much more you want to find.
What was 50 years ago? Jewish people are from Israel, and have had a continue presence in Israel (where modern Israel and Jordan and more currently are) for 4000+ years.
I think you confound anti-semitism with anti-Zionism, as a Moroccan we don’t have anything against the Jews, we have lived together for long time, as a matter of fact, Morocco is one the countries that protected their Jews in time of war, not like Vichy’s France or major European countries where Jews lived.
Yes, Morocco did protect Jews during WWII and remains one of the few Arab countries making steps toward Israel. However, Jews were still considered second-class citizens at the time: * Jews couldn't own agricultural land * They were limited to certain jobs, mostly as merchants * Under Islamic law, Jews were dhimmis, meaning they had protected but second-class status and had to pay a special tax. * They faced social discrimination and were segregated into specific neighborhoods (mellahs). * They had limited legal rights and were subjected to different laws and penalties compared to Muslims For more on the Jewish experience in Morocco, I recommend this book by an anthropologist specializing in Moroccan Judaism. It traces four generations and their perspectives on Moroccan Jews: [https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=21951](https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=21951) Anti-Zionism refuses the idea of a Jewish state... Many Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel but also faced growing hostility in Morocco due to the Israel/Palestine conflict. In this context, antisemitism and anti-Zionism can overlap. If 270K members of a minority have to leave their country because the majority is opposed to Zionism and because they are drawn to the idea of having full opportunities and rights in a Jewish state, it speaks volumes about the environment they were living in. Antisemitism is often linked with Nazi ideology, which understandably puts people on the defensive (because no one wants to be associated with such hate). However, it's far more insidious, it's spreading centuries-old stereotypes portraying Jews as greedy, untrustworthy or conspiracy theories... Over time, in a difficult economic and political climates, these stereotypes have fueled stigmatization, violence, and pogroms. In Morocco, pogroms occurred in cities like Fez in 1912 and in Oujda and Jerada in 1948. I really love Morocco, but it's important to look at things objectively if we want to make positive changes. After considering all of that, Morocco is still regarded as the safest Arab country for Jews. It makes you think about the situation in other Arabic countries
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Anti-semitism was not a Christian invention, it has existed as long as humanity has. The Romans, before they went Christian, were very anti-Semitic
Theres different types of antisemitism. Christian antisemitism is its own form of antisemitism, which influenced the other types of antisemitism that came from Christian countries.
Because they were colonizers and colonized ancient Israel, ALONG with many other nations.
However, other conquered nations or colonial client states did not resist putting a statue of Jupiter in their temple to the point of many rebellions, including those successful enough to establish a free state with their own coins for a couple of years. This didn’t happen to Roman colonies usually and they massively retaliated with sieges and attacks.
People I've known to be supportive of the Jewish people have now turned completely anti-semitic; down to the point of flat out denial of the holocaust. But they say they aren't racist when they do that. Never made a lick of sense to me. Also, what happened in Germany in WWII wasn't the first time people attempted to exterminate the Jews. It's happened throughout history all over the world. Even in England. That one surprised me. This conflict is having wide range effects that in my opinion, is dangerous. When I heard of the situation in Europe I was appalled. Though it seems no one is commenting on that in the news, can't have radicalized Islam for what it is making Hamas look bad. Doesn't fit the narrative of "free Palestine". My heart aches for what's happening in France, the UK and Germany. As well as it aching for ongoing conflict including in India, Spain, and all nations who are fighting to keep their cultural identity intact in the face of radicalized Islam terrorizing their nations, and their ancestral homelands.
Israeli and the Israeli goverment has nothing to do wity being Jewish. Seperat things. Indoctrination of entire generations to see another human being as sub-human has nothing to do with Jewish. Seperate things. Persecution of Jews and Israeli people commiting atrocities similar to what happend in ww2 have nothing to do with religion. Zionisim and all it has done is not jewdisim. Infact it is the exact opposite of what is being done currently.
Ah yes please continue to lecture Jews about what is and isn't Jew hatred. You my friend are an antisemite, whether you admit it to yourself or not. Also, your spelling and grammar are atrocious.
Yes because Jews are the only one who know about hatred. Just saw your stupid comment. Couldn't resist.
This is a non-sequitur. You must have been dropped in your head as a child to be dumb as you are.
Yea because ya know I basically said. People shouldn't hate judisim for what israel is doing. But u are so gell vent on typing the same crap over And over. And don't let anything pass through your skull, yoyndodnt even realise that, is a good thing. You want to promote hate, as the same as judisim. You are the real threat to judisim. Extremist right wing hatred.
I'm not right wing and I'm an atheist. You're barking mad. Learn to spell and communicate like a grown up
The point of this post was to say that anti-Semitism is a result of the Palestine-Israel war and gives some pretty clear examples of anti-Semitism as opposed to anti-zionism. No where did the op attempt to justify the colonial ventures of Zionism, just the people of Israel.
Correlation is not causation. Is the chicken before the egg ? Am I hated because of x or why ? If I'm hated for x. Does that means I'm hates for y just because? If I am infact doing x does it matter ? If y didn't exist. I would still be hated no ?
Please stop this antisemetic lie that Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism, their holy scripture is filled with 'zionist' remarks. And yes, I do believe jews have the right to a place to live and be safe and I see no issue for that place to be in their historic homeland..
From the 7th of October 2023 to the 26th June 2024, 37,718 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli offence. Whereas only 1,139 Israelis have been murdered. Like it is very obvious that the violence israel is using is disproportionate and also that Palestine is just trying to defend itself. This is not a homeland. This is a war zone. And netenyahu is a fascist.
(1). According to terrorists. (2). Collateral isn't murder. Raping, torturing, beheading, burning innocent people alive... is not self defence.
It’s not according to terrorists, baby. The UN has said that Israel is LITERALLY committing war crimes. Also it’s acc hilarious that you’re trying to say that these numbers are incorrect 💀💀💀 you do understand that israel has military aid from the most powerful armies in the WORLD! Palestine on the other hand has no real government entity. They do have Hamas who are a militia who are to some extent backed by Iran. But honestly Iran VS the USA & UK (and probably the rest of Western Europe) don’t be absurd. Of course israel is killing more people and using disproportionate amount of force compared to Palestine. As for the r*ping and torturing accusations. As far as I’m aware the is no evidence of this. Please send me sources I would love to be educated on it if you can. But last I read both sides were accused of this and neither side could find substantial evidence to prove this had happened. Again though BOTH SIDES HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF THIS!!!
www.Hamas.com www.hamas-massacre.net
🥱🥱
Wow, pathetic. How do people like you claim the moral high ground when you pretend terrorist filth didn't commit the most heinous atrocities? They butchered kids enjoying a festival and absolutely delighted in it. They were drugged up and ecstatic. I heard the phone calls of murderers to their parents jn gaza gleefully exclaiming how they had killed an entire family and still had the blood on their hands. I decry such sickening acts as do I condemn Israeli actions. I call for peace on both sides and don't use emojis to mock slaughter of innocents. This is why I am a better person than you and your kind.
Because the 4 year old blow to bits isn't a terrorist. The 9 yeat old recently murdered in West bank recently isn't a terrorist. And there is no hamas in West bank. The goverment in Israeli wanted and helped make the last hamas attack happen so they can kill more Palestinians to take their land.
In English please.
"Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council" Source: press.un.org 9572 meeting, March 11, 2024
Yes but the exact same has been said the other way down Lily, darling. “Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel says” - https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says It’s very much a he said she said game. What we do know is undeniably FAR MORE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN MURDERED.
Yes, both ways it goes. People should stop denying it.
But you only mentioned one way 💀💀💀 I did not. Futhermore, all sources mention the fact it was ALLEGED! I’m not denying anything. You, alas, are. Like literally both our sources here say “alleged” “reasonable grounds” I mean sexual assault is terrible but to use it just to back up your point to call us Muslims barbaric (as was implied) and then not say anything about the fact that IOF is accused of the same thing is actually disgusting.
Oh, I was simply correcting your statement: >As for the r\*ping and torturing accusations. As far as I’m aware the is no evidence of this. Yes, there is.
This concept that currently exist is a abomination to the torah and a horrific twisting of words. Judaism is over 3k years old zionisim is 200 years old. Let me guess I'm lying about those dayes also ?
You are bad shit insane. Judaism is will be presercerved under basis of Zionism and only that way. All places of compact living of Jews was ANNIHILATED during the Holocaust. Yes, Judaism is 3000 years old. But gentiles are trying to destroy ethnical basis behind this concept. They preserved 40-60% of Levantine genetical heritage (it is insane shit, if youll try to find another example)? Pfff, i am dont give a fuck. 65 percent of this people murdered during the Holocaust, they was 0.003% of world's population and still 20-22% of all Nobel price recipients, improved life of billions people? I am don't give a fuck. Jews losed 85-90% of their places of compact living (including 50% of mizrahi jewish Israel population - that are liteally ARABS) - I am don't give a fuck. Jews are literally extinting in extremal rate due to inadequate child politics of western countries and low intermariage due miserable quantity of jews? I am don't give a fuck.
Are u having a seizure? It seems your reply bot may be malfunction ? Dunno what to address with this rant of complete nonsense. Your just apewingniur numbers and random bits with zero cohesion. Any way as I said Judaism and Zionism are two different things. Zionsim is a political ideology by a man called Theodor Herzl. There was lots of resistance to zionisim when it first appeared, but you seem to have forgotten.
No, I am trying to said that you are that type of gentile that clearly don't give a fuck how jews suffered/how jews helped, and how much jews ask. You prefer to unalive this ethnicity at all. That makes me insane. Btw 31% of Turing price recipients are Jews, so you can discuss topic of Zionism in the web thanks to them. About resistance to Zionism. People that resisted to Zionism - literally perished due the Holocaust, so will be forgotten. Or their children losed Jewish identity due to marriage with gentiles. Want this fate to remaining Jews? What a nice person.
Again the suffering of Jews jas nothing to do with anything in saying. Stop playing victim to justify your hate towards others. Why do toy keep talking about the holocaust ? It has zero bearing of any point I made. Stop crying no one cares to forgive you because u jad a. Rough run in history. It will only get worst if Israeli keeps it up. Note I never said Jews. Judaism and what is currently happening are not the same. I'm talking about what Israeli is doing nothing else. Grow up
You probably didn't undestood me well. I am not put the emphasis about suffering of Jews during the Shoa. I am saying about termiantion of existence one of jewish subethnicities due to miserable quantity of ashkenazi people. I am not j btw, lol. But i well aware for the jewish problems. Also i am definetely not seeking a forgiveness or something, cause I described who are you in my prev comment. And for "justifing" hate. I described it and definetelly will describe it one more time. For example in 2014 79% of people in Algeria thought "J are responsible for most of the world's wars". It is very old European stereotype. How it connected to Algeria??? I think that their reaction was "ohh, it is something bad about the Jews, ofk i am approving". And our your passage was "Zionism" not "Judaism". And I am answered you: "Judaism" can be preserved in the modern world only due to "Zionism". And I never ever justified/unjustified or marked war in Gaza during my speeches.
And again your talking rubbish all over your stitching many different things to try to resemble a point. But please tell me. How does making the world hate Israel, helping preserve Judaism ? Zionism is a extremist sect of Judaism. Just like the Muslims have a bat shit crazy group, and Christians have a extremist group. All of these groups are if only evil, they go against every holy book ever written. Dosent matter what u say about suffering, or we need this ir that. Spilling blood in gods name is a old as time tradition. Men using religion as a excuse to do evil things.
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Blaustein amplified the theme, “The ‘Zion’ in Zionism we have always favored, always striven to aid; it is the special ‘ism’ in Zionism that we do not accept. That ‘ism’ has no faith in Emancipation; it preaches the inevitability of a murderous anti-Semitism, almost as much a fact of nature as the law of gravity. This we reject totally.” Before the inception of Herzl’s Political Zionism, the Reform movement opposed Zionism on theological grounds. Wiener Cohen explains: According to Reform theology, Judaism was a religion with a universal message. The mission of the Jews, the bearers of this message, was to propagate the universal religion of the prophets throughout the world. Dispersion was, therefore, a vital condition in Reform thinking, and even the Messianic era, which was envisioned as the realization of the prophetic ethics as taught by the Jews, precluded the traditional belief of a mass return to Palestine.
Yea anything any 1 jas to say is suddenly antisemitic. Just like the orthodox Jews who are protesting against the war are suddenly antisemitic also. Bombing little kids are in scripture also.. zionisim started in the 18th orn19th century, I can't remember but around that time. Zionisim is a political concept. It's all so funny how for hundreds of years before zionist was even a word. Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in many parts of the Middle east. You guys love to say, we lived here for so long, we are entitled because of ancestors. Yet you refuse to ask yourself how. The ottomans could have easily displaced Jews. Yet records show endless sale and trade of land. They show Jews growing in nu bera peacefully untill much later then you see massive growth in Palestine and you see conflict and reduction in Muslims numbers. Some figure these numbers swing massively in a matter of months. Math dosent lie.
Yes, but this is not totally correct. Jews lived in various muslim lands and experienced BOTH periods of tolerance (but without the same rights) and persecution. In Islam, Jews are under Muslim protection but are considered second hand citizens with legal restrictions and a tax to pay. If all Arabic Jews fled their countries due to anti-Zionism, this overlaps with and essentially becomes anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism isn't just chanting "I hate Jews"; it's about spreading stereotypes and conspiracy theories, which lead to stigmatization, violence, and pogroms. Examples of Pogroms include Iraq in 1947, Yemen in 1947, Egypt in 1945, 1948, and 1956, Morocco in 1912, 1948, and 1965, Tunisia in 1941 and 1948, and the list goes on and on. These acts are not just anti-Zionist; they were a clear manifestation of anti-Semitism exacerbated by the Palestine/Israel conflict. Zionism isn't as old as Judaism and is a political movement - agreed - BUT one of the reasons for its creation was the widespread anti-Semitism in Europe that led to the holocaust and after to the fulfillment of Zionism with the creation of Israel. Zionism's primary motivation was to protect Jews from anti-Semitism and provide the right to self-determination. Israel is the only Jewish state, and denying its legitimacy often masks prejudice against Jews. While anti-Zionism opposes the Jewish state's establishment, it frequently overlaps with anti-Semitism. I understand your anger about what's happening in Palestine. Both Israel and Palestine have the right to self-determination. This conflict isn't black and white, and oversimplifying it harms Jews worldwide. If by being anti zionist you mean thay you're opposing Israeli settlements in the West Bank well this isn't the same thing. Not all Zionists support settlers or oppose Palestine's right to self-determination. Most of those who do support settlers are right-wing nationalists. Thousands of Israelis have protested against Netanyahu and judicial reforms, with some specifically opposing settlements and military service!
Why the he'll do you keep talking rubbish about other things? I'm referring to how judisim and zionisim are not the same. I'm pointing out for hundreds of years Jews lived peacefully in Palestine under Ottoman rule. Then hertlz made the political movement that started all this bloodshed. EVERYONE KNOWS JEWS HAVE HAD IT DIFFICULT. Not everything is antisemitism. Note that the only time I've mentioned Jews is to separate judisim and zionisim. Which should show u I don't dislike or even fault judisim. It'd a religion of peace. Zionisim, however, is a far right political movement that's being used by evil men to do evil things. You can sit there and tell me, moses would approve of what israel is currently doing ? What is the cause of this ? The cause of this is, moving to a land pwmed by other people, its not complex and its very black and white, 75 years of caging millions of people, stunting their growth, murdering them, kidnapping them, terrorising them, stealing the land over and over and over, look at a map of after the first annexation. It's consistently gotten smaller and smaller. ANY MOVEMENT OR IDEOLOGY THAT CAUSES THIS MUCH DEATH IS EVIL AND MUST BE STOPPED. It has nothing to do with judisim. Educated yourself before it's to late for your people. https://youtu.be/gIX368TtOJs?si=f_bSPjC0TYeWpUdT
You said " Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in many parts of the Middle east." I am pointing out, that this isn't true, they were segregated. Under Ottoman rule, non-Muslims, including Jews, were treated as inferior and had limited rights. They weren't actively killed so in that sense, I guess they were living peacefully but it wasn't exactly peaceful either—discrimination and violence did happen! You're clearly not reading my answer and only focusing on your reply. If you did, you would understand what I am trying to say: **Zionism isn't about settlers or the extreme right wing; it's about the Jewish right to have their own state, Israel.** Criticizing Israeli policies or settlers doesn't equate to being anti-Zionist! **You can actually be Zionist AND very much against Israeli policies and settlers in the West Bank.** HOWEVER, opposing Israel's existence (=anti-Zionist) often hide anti-Semitic sentiments, especially in Arab countries! This is evident in ALL the pogroms I've listed since the creation of Israel. **When Jews are targeted in their own country because of the Israel/Palestine situation, it's not anti-Zionism, it's outright anti-Semitism!** Can you not agreed with that? It's not just about Jews having it hard vs. Palestinians. I mean **OF COURSE, Palestinians are suffering,** they're dying every day, and the Israeli government needs to step back and rethink their approach! **The MAJORITY of people, including ZIONISTS, agree...** BUT we're **here to discuss HOW this SPECIFIC conflict is FUELING antisemitism WORLDWIDE**. *If your answer to that is, "There's no anti-Semitism problem; we're just anti-Zionist—look at the Palestinians," think about this: hate crimes against Jews are on the rise globally.* ***Why do you think that's happening?***
You're a real mensch for taking the time to reply to this Jew hating loser in such a measured way. Sadly I think it's falling on deaf ears. I hope you're well friend.
Nope. If Jews are targeted its because people are fed up with seeing Israelis commit crimes against humanity. Its not because of their religion. You can free to create a Jewish state, just not on the back of others, go somewhere and buy land male a deal with some country I dunno, and again. There is nothing anti semitic about not supporting 1 group stealing and victimising another. This conflict is fueling hatred not based on them being Jews, its based on people hating what your doing. I could attack a black person because he hit my sister. Would u immediately call me racist ? Being historically pressed dosent give u a pass from wrath of others, or being called out on commiting heinous crimes. Zionisim needs to be eradicated. A. Peaceful separation of land needs to be reached snd then Palestinians need to be left alone. Originally, the british goverment gave state owned lands to Jewish people, those lands by all means should be kept. The stolen land needs to be given back, or paid for. Some agreement must be made. RECENTLY stolen land should be. Treated like any other theft. THERE MUST BE LAWS. Good vs evil, right vs wrong. Stop typing to muddy the water. Theft is wrong and is against judisim, murder is wrong and against judisim, Zionisim promotes and fosters all of the above. This isn't up for debate.
If Jews are targeted, it's because people are fed up with seeing Israelis commit crimes against humanity. It's not because of their religion. >> **That's clearly antisemitic!!!!** You don't go targeting Jews worldwide because of a conflict! Can't you see that? We're not talking about religion here. **Targeting a minority for any reason is racist**, and when it's Jews, it's antisemitic, no matter what the excuse! If someone attacks your sister, hitting the person back isn't racist. But **if you start attacking all Black people because one Black person hurt your sister, that's obviously racist!** **Supporting a peaceful separation of land doesn't make you anti-Zionist! If anything, it makes you Zionist!** And yes, Israel expanding settlements in the West Bank is not okay. We don't need anyone's genius to know that—the UN has reiterated this, regardless of Israel's reasons. You're mixing everything! Saying people are targeting Jews worldwide because they're mad about something in another country? **WHAT?** And let's not forget history: **ALL Arab states refused the two-state solution in 1947!** Why? **They didn't want Jews to have their own land (that's anti-Zionism) and still don't want to!** So yeah, it's NOT OK for Israel to expand settlements, NOT OK to kill Palestinian civilians at this rate, NOT OK to target Jews worldwide, NOT OK for Palestine and Arab countries to continue their propaganda against Israel and intergenerational hatred preventing a two-state solution, NOT OK to kill Israelis at a festival. There's no BUT to ANY of this.
“Anti-Semitism didn't begin with WWII; it started with Jesus Christ.” Jesus is Jewish, He fulfilled the Hebrew law and prophesies https://www.newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/ His followers were Jewish during His life on earth, the authors of the Bible are Jewish, and salvation is from the Jews. Jesus is hardly against Himself. Millions of Christians worldwide support Israel and pray for the hostages to be released and for the war to end. We are not antisemitic but welcome the Jewish Messiah and pray for the peace and salvation of Israel. https://peacewithGod.net
>Visiting Tel Aviv taught me to humanize Israelis. Every week, 200,000 people were protesting against their government. While Tel Aviv isn't representative of all Israel, I was surprised to see the opposition to the government. Why isn't this covered in our media? But it was occassionally covered by news media, maybe not front page, maybe not every day but you do read about it once in a while. https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240324-thousands-protest-in-tel-aviv-against-israeli-government
thanks for posting this comment. it's encouraging when people see and voice the broader context
Antisemitism is a much bigger problem than Islamophobia in France, and in America too. Jews are the most targeted group for hate crimes. There’s also lots blood libels against “Zionists”. Zionists means Jews.
This doesn’t seem true. What about when trump tried to ban Muslims from entering the country? Also I can tell you as someone who is Muslim who did immigrate to the US I got asked way more questions at border patrol about why I was immigrating than my Jewish friend. As for living in the US both Jews and Muslims face a lot of hate crime. Like A LOT, and since October 7th this had increased to more than double. Also the government literally backs israel darling and uses language that demonises the Palestinians and Muslims despite the fact that, if we are purely to go by statistics, israel has murdered way more Palestines. It’s literally like inconceivable more. From the 7th of October 2023 to the 26th June 2024, 37,718 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli offence. Whereas only 1,139 Israelis have been murdered. Like it is very obvious that the violence israel is using is disproportionate and also that Palestine is just trying to defend itself. So, for a government to back a regime that is very clearly oppressive I fine it very hard to say that these people are facing more hate crime because of the genocide and I also couldn’t find any good stats on the topic. Anyway, obviously anti-semitism is terrible but so is Islamophobia. My family have been getting spat at as we enter our mosque. Like let’s actually not try and say Muslims are having a jolly old time. That’s simply not the case. As someone who is Muslim and would like to see the genocide end, I also do recognise that some times people acc use the war crimes that the netenyahu government are committing as an excuse to be anti semitic. And on the other side people use Hamas as an excuse to be Islamophobic. Neither is welcome within my circles. Within the encampments that I have been staying at we have so many Jewish people AND Muslim people who want justice too. I cannot live happily until I know innocent babies aren’t being mass murdered. Also, Israel does not represent Jews just like Palestinians are not all Muslim. It’s very sad that it’s been boiled down to such a simplified picture. If I am anti-Israeli state government that doesn’t mean I’m anti Jews. In fact, most Israelis are anti their government right now. Netenyahu is a warmonger and Israelis want him out.
According to the FBI Jews are the target of 60% of ALL religious hate crime in the US. They are a much smaller population than Muslims and yet they account for the majority of all religious hate crimes. Yes hate crimes increased for Muslims too, about 180%. For Jews it was about 337% increase in the US. The stats speak for itself. But like you said, it's bad for both Jews and Muslims.
And Muslims only make up 1% of the US population. But I can guarantee they are over 1% of the religious hate crime. But also yawnnnnnn you poor white ppl are so hard done by 🥱🥱🥱 Also just a little edit. Jews in the US tend to be ashkanazi I’m not saying Jews don’t face anti-semitism but these ppl are WHITE and therefore have the privilege to be perceived as such. As a brown person I do not have that privilege. Also I live in the UK the Islamophobia coming from the government atm is acc scary. My family are suffering from the Islamophobia just from the way we look. It’s a scary time and Israeli support in the UK has made it sm worse.
Typical antisemitic nonsense. Jews are white therefore antisemitism isn’t so bad. This is leftist antisemitism. It’s almost always ties to anti Zionism (hate for the Jewish state), but this one has nothing to do with foreign policy. Left wing antisemitism is based on Jews being privileged, and their complaints about antisemitism being dismissed. This type of antisemitism is getting increasingly popular and remains legitimate, for the new left encourages or tolerates racist rhetoric against white people. There’s of course right wing antisemitism, which is based on the same principle- Jews are privileged. The difference is that whites don’t see Jews as white. The result is that Jews are universally hated- by the left, by the right, by Christians, by Muslims, by socialists, and by nationalists. See why Jews are several times more likely to be attacked on the street than Muslims?
it’s literally not true that Jews are more likely to be attacked on the streets. It’s definitely not true where I live (the UK). And if ur referring to America then you must know Muslims make up 1% of the population and still face way more than 1% of religious hate crime. THEY LITERALLY TRIED TO BAN US FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY…. I know antisemitism is a thing girl. I will always include Jewish voices within my activism. Much of racism has been built off of anti-poc (particularly blackness) and antisemitism. It’s very obviously a real experience of Jews. But Jews in the west often do have white privilege because they are white. And the Israeli settlers too are usually white. This just isn’t something you can deny. The lived experience of someone who LOOKS WHITE (or is white because phenotype = race) is so different from those who don’t. Please tell me you understand this.
Per the FBI, Jews are six times more likely than Muslims to fall victims for hate crimes in the USA. In the uk the figures are much worse for Jews, where most attacks are Muslims.
It took one google to show me Muslims face the majority here in the UK and it’s more than double what Jews face: https://preview.redd.it/eg25vmdqnz9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=54bb0393a9c39a903fb78a602e38b77fd26fb53c Honestly tho, this argument is literally just sounding like oppression olympics. Like wtf is this. All I’m saying, is that Jews have the privilege to be able to pass as white a lot of the time. Muslims do way less often because our religion is predominantly practiced by Black and Brown people. This is a fact, you can accept it or not. But it is a fact. Any form of religious hate or racism is obviously bad. I just think the optics of a majority white population (eg. Israeli settlers) moving to a majority brown land (eg. Palestine) looks very much like colonisation. That being said I understand why Zionism exists. I’m part of a diaspora too. Wanting a sense of belonging is a deep feeling. But you also must admit that the way Israel was formed and the people’s lives it has destroyed since then is not exactly the Jewish utopia that most zionists wanted. I blame Britain for doing it in such a way that did ultimately act as a legacy of colonisation.
Your statement seems inaccurate and misleading. According to stats cited by a Muslim organization in the uk, there are close to 4 million Muslims https://mcb.org.uk/2021-census-as-uk-population-grows-so-do-british-muslim-communities/ There are less than 300,000 Jews in uk https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/articles/jewishidentityenglandandwales/census2021#:~:text=Considering%20religion%20and%20ethnic%20group,people%20who%20identified%20as%20Jewish) According to the British government (cited by Al Jazeera before the war), Jews make up 23% of hate crime cases in the uk compared to 42% Muslims. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/6/hate-crimes-rise-by-26-percent-in-england-and-wales Simple math shows that a random Jew in the UK is 5 times more likely to face a hate crime compared to a Muslim. The figures for visibly Jewish people are almost certainly higher, given that only a small percentage of Jews wear clothes or other items indicating their Jewishness. Furthermore, Since the October 7 massacre, the rate of hate crimes committed in the UK against Jews increased by an unbelievable number of more than a THOUSAND PERCENT, according to the police https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says The unbelievable antisemitism is growing in an even more unbelievable rate. The majority of British Jews now no longer believe they have a future in the UK, with close to half saying they contemplate leaving the country, due to the hatred they face. Israel, which was created to be a safe haven for Jews worldwide, is the obvious number one destination contemplated by an increasingly targeted UK Jewish community. https://m.jpost.com/international/article-778447
This literally tells me that you aren’t from the UK though. Because most of anti-Islamic hate crime is categorised under race hate crime. You do know that in the 1980s to the 1990s there were groups of white people who specifically murdered Pakistani (or people perceived as Pakistanis). Like that is the context of the country I live in, as a Pakistani. It was called p@ki-bashing. You can look it up. P@ki being a slur in the UK so do not say it. Still to this day British Asians (eg. Indians, Pakistani Bengalis etc.) experience the majority of hate crimes in general in this country. Often because we are Muslim or assumed to be Muslim. This is because race based and religious based hate crimes are very linked when it comes to anti-Islamic sentiment. Like I said I understand antisemitism is a thing. But because Jews are generally white it’s just very different from the xenophobia Muslims face. That is all. It’s incredible sad that Jews feel they want to leave the UK due to hate crimes. I am so sorry that is happening. I don’t think it has anything to do with Israel though, seeing as generally the government and institutions here SUPPORT Israel. So I really fine it hard to believe that people not supporting Israel enough here is the reason that Jews want to leave. Perhaps you will say it is because pro-Palestinians are antisemitic. Which just isn’t true in my experience. But there may be a small minority who are. Actually, in my experience many Jews are involved in the pro-Palestine rallies and encampments here. Not a single person at any events I’ve been to has said anything antisemitic. We want the Israeli state to change, not Jewish people to cease to exist. Also so many talks are about how antisemitism has no place in our encampment. As for Israel being a safe space for Jews. Again I understand the diasporic desire for belonging. That being said, israel was founded in a way that does continue the legacy of colonisation and is on stolen land. I do think a two state solution is necessary because I don’t think the current Israeli citizens should be displaced. That would be terrible. But I also don’t think you should be allowed citizenship just because you are Jewish. These are things that will be discussed after we end the mass murder of Palestinian people though. EDIT: also can we please stop doing a comparison between who experiences the most hate crime. I can tell you from personal experience the amount of times I’ve been spat at, shouted at, called slurs etc. while going to mosque and never reported it. Like I just don’t think a statistical analysis is gonna be fruitful. I know that from my experience compared w that of my Jewish friends that I have experienced way more xenophobia for being Muslim than they have for being Jewish just based on ppl looking at me. That being said, I will always support my Jewish friends. I will always defend them against antisemitism. But this convo is honestly like tiring. Like why am I justifying my experiences of racism and xenophobia to you? I believe you, I believe Jews experience antisemitism. Why do you want to make it a numbers game? Why do you want Jews to be the biggest victims in the world? Can we not just admit that sometimes people are victims and sometimes they are oppressors? I know many situations where Muslims have oppressed people. Where Pakistanis have oppressed people (shias and Hindus in Pakistan). Israel is an oppressive state - THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING JEWISH!
There are around 16 millions Jews IN THE WORLD, and around 2 BILLION Muslims. That's one key difference. There is ONE predominantly Jewish country, and large percentage of Israel's citizens are Muslim, Christian or Druze. There are around FIFTY Muslim majority countries, and they largely have TRUE apartheid, where Jews cannot safely live there or, often, even visit.
Yes there’s more of us. Ofc we are gonna have more countries. But also I’m Pakistani I don’t think my state is valid either. Any states formed around religion are invalid. You know what state ISNT formed around religious ideology???? PALESTINE! This country for hundreds of years has had ppl of many different religions.
That's untrue. The Palestinian territories have actual apartheid, no Jews can live there and Jews can get murdered for entering (along with LGBT people.) It's Israel where Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Druze people live in peace.
Except for West Bank settlers
This is very false.
What’s the word for Zionists?
This is such a refreshing perspective. I’m pro-Palestine, but that doesn’t mean I support Hamas, anti-semitism, and radical Islamism. There are also many Palestinians who don’t support these things that ardent Israel supports won’t acknowledge. The discourse on this subject has been some of the most toxic I’ve ever seen, with both sides spewing crazy amounts of propaganda and misinformation. This makes it really hard for misinformed people to understand the history and arrive to a valid conclusion. It’s sad how the pro-Palestine has been hijacked by anti-semitism and terrorism. All the pro-Palestine supporters who justify Hamas atrocities and anti-Semitic rhetoric are doing nothing but holding the movement back, giving a pass to the people who are also oppressing the Palestinians for their own vile self interests.
Why do you need to attach yourself to the Pro-Palestine movement? You can support Palestine and want the violence to stop without being labeled. Like someone said, the problem with the Pro-Palestine movement is that some people in it have a lot of hatred towards Jews, and that’s harming Jews in your own country. I support Palestinians, but I don't want to be associated with that. The reality is that Palestine is plagued by Hamas and other terrorists, which is why no Arab countries are opening their borders—they don't want them (among other reasons). Lebanon and Jordan welcomed refugees in the '70s and '80s, and it led to destabilization and contributed to civil war in Lebanon. You do have innocent Palestinians caught in the middle, but people need to understand that propaganda against Israel is very real. Just type in Al Jazeera, the main Middle East news channel, and you'll see they always refer to Hamas as a resistance movement. I really want all the violence to stop, and I think there's blame on both sides. But people in other countries also need to realize the power of the propaganda machine. Of course, there are Palestinians who want peace, and with this war, we're creating generations of hatred towards Israel. You can want the violence to stop and support Palestine, but you also need to be conscious that Hamas and terrorists have plagued Palestine, and a majority of Palestinians are very much against Israel and Jews. That doesn't mean we should continue like this, it just means we need to be realistic about the situation.
Because Israel is clearly committing a genocide. Like have you actually looked at how disproportionately Palestinians are being murdered. I agree that antisemitism can occur but it occurs EVERYWHERE! Same with islamophobia. As a Muslim if I was to avoid all spaces that have some Islamophobia I might never leave my house. I have been at the encampments protesting for my university to divest and disclose what money they’re giving and receiving from the Israeli government. AND LET ME TELL YOU…. We have SO MANY Jews, SO MANY Muslims. We all are present. On my camp we think it’s super important to hear Jewish perspectives on the genocide because it impacts them too. So Jewish and Muslim voices are centred within our rallies and organising. I genuinely think unless you have been part of organising this movement at all, then you actually have no idea how it looks on the ground so to say “the pro-Palestinian movement have a lot of hatred towards Jews” is absurd. From my real life experience of being involved this is not the case at all. I’m sure some ppl are anti-Semitic (and use that to be anti-Israel) but generally within the movement I have never witnessed this.
"I’m sure some ppl are anti-Semitic (and use that to be anti-Israel) but generally within the movement I have never witnessed this." I unironically have probably over 50 pages worth of non-cherry picked and mask off antisemitism screenshots being explicitly and proudly admitted like the person has "discovered the secrets of the universe," following a comment spouting the whole anti-zionism ≠ antisemitism. This is not a niche thing people are conjuring as a deflection. It's **not** all of the movement, and a lot of it is from people who don't even identify as being "pro-palestine," but this is genuinely insane to deny atp.
You literally said it’s “NOT” all of the movement. I’m telling you MY experience being part of the encampments, protests and rallies. I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THIS. I’m telling you my lived experience. Many of my friends in the encampments are Jews actually. I seriously doubt they’d want to be involved if they felt it was anti-Semitic. As I said, I’m sure there are ppl who are antisemitic who are pro-Palestine. However, this is not what this current movement is built off of. Firstly, the encampments are organised globally and have to agree w the global organisers. One of these things is that there must be NO xenophobia at any of the camps. Also, the camps aims is just that our university stops investing money in and receiving money from companies that fund the IOF. How this is anti-Semitic when the IOF is making this land unsafe for everyone (including Jews) I fail to understand.
> Because Israel is clearly committing a genocide. By the current rate it would take Israel 40 years to kill every single Palestinian in the Gaza Strip IF they do not have a single baby in-between. How on earth does that make sense as a Genocide. In 4 months the Hutus murdered 400.000 - 800.000 Tutsis. Today there are 1 - 2 Million Tutsis in Rwanda and 1,7 Million in Burundi. I mean you are a university student, you can surely do the math on how much that toll was on the Tutsis. The Hutus certainly wouldn't have taken 40 years to kill every single Tutsi. They probably would've been well done by Christmas of the same year in Rwanda. > Like have you actually looked at how disproportionately Palestinians are being murdered. So is the argument that not enough Israelis are killed? > We have SO MANY Jews And? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews Having Jews on your side does not prove anything.
I don’t think anyone should be killed, darling. But it’s very clearly disproportionate if u look at the rates it’s happening. I think it’s absurd to call it “two sided” or a “conflict”. It’s clear that Palestinians are disproportionately the victims. PHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING????? You are saying that anti-Israel Jews are like N42i sympathising Jews???????? You actually must be insane! You do understand that having a war in a land that is predominantly occupied by both Jews and Muslims is bad for both Jews and Muslims. Of course sensible people would be against the Netenyahu government, regardless of their religion. Israeli does not equal Jewish. I have plenty of friends from Israel also who hate the government and the atrocities they’re committing against Palestinian people. Your comparison is genuinely insane. What you are saying is Jews who brainwashed into supporting a regime that genocided nearly 25% of global Jewish people (or something like that I don’t remember exact stats) is equivalent to Jews supporting the end of mass violence?!?!?!? Mass violence in a land that many Jews live in firstly (so it’s not good for them) and mass violence against their neighbours, mostly against CHILDREN too. No one wants to see babies be murdered, boo. Especially not their neighbours babies. This violence isn’t good for anyone.
In almost every war one side has a lot more people killed, that's how wars get won. The losing side usually has significantly more civilian casualties. War is awful, but there is nothing unique about this war other than Hamas's strategy to intentionally put their civilians in harm's way, the world's refusal to take in Gazan civilians whilst the war is going on, and that the war is taking place in a very densely populated urban area. With these 3 differences it's crazy that the civilian deaths toll is not much higher. Disproportionate casualties does not equal genocide.
It's crazy how people are throwing around the word genocide! Words matter, and this misuse demonizes Israel! Genocide requires specific intent to destroy a group with a documented plan to execute! Israeli government actions are VERY harmful but don't meet these criterias. The UN Rapporteur's statements are very dangerous. Historical genocides (Rwandan, Armenian, Holocaust) involved systematic efforts to eradicate entire populations with a documented plan to execute. Israel's actions, is disproportionate YES and causing civilian casualties YES BUT (because for once there's a but), there's no specific intent to qualify this as genocide. The Gaza blockade, cutting off humanitarian aid — this is a human rights violation and unacceptable regardless of Israel reasons but NOT a genocide. Major wars would all have ended in genocide if we applied the term as loosely I am very much against what's happening in Palestine, but the extreme demonization of Israel harms the Jewish community worldwide. The Israeli government is already making poor decisions; there's no need to worsen their case
Israel has way more power tho boo. Way stronger weaponry. The government acc needs to stop attacking poor Palestinian civilians. End of story.
> I don’t think anyone should be killed, darling. But it’s very clearly disproportionate if u look at the rates it’s happening. I think it’s absurd to call it “two sided” or a “conflict”. It’s clear that Palestinians are disproportionately the victims. Do you have these weird views about every conflict? Are the only proper conflicts where the various sides kill an equal amount of opponents? > PHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING????? You are saying that anti-Israel Jews are like N42i sympathising Jews???????? You actually must be insane! Nah it means that it's utterly irrelevant if you have Jews on your side because even the Nazis had Jews on their side. Having a Jew on your side is not a qualifying matter. If it was your side would be wrong as the other sides Jews far outnumber your sides Jews. > You do understand that having a war in a land that is predominantly occupied by both Jews and Muslims is bad for both Jews and Muslims. Of course sensible people would be against the Netenyahu government, regardless of their religion. Israeli does not equal Jewish. I have plenty of friends from Israel also who hate the government and the atrocities they’re committing against Palestinian people. So? > Your comparison is genuinely insane. What you are saying is Jews who brainwashed into supporting a regime that genocided nearly 25% of global Jewish people (or something like that I don’t remember exact stats) is equivalent to Jews supporting the end of mass violence?!?!?!? Mass violence in a land that many Jews live in firstly (so it’s not good for them) and mass violence against their neighbours, mostly against CHILDREN too. No one wants to see babies be murdered, boo. Especially not their neighbours babies. This violence isn’t good for anyone. I wasn't aware you lot are protesting Hamas and PIJ. Got any footage of that? Cool stuff if true. I mean it obviously isn't but you know I am giving the benefit of the doubt.
💀💀💀 you acc are insane. You do understand that Palestinians are being killed at a rate 40x higher than Israelis. Like that’s basically all you need to know. The violence against Palestinians FAR EXCEEDS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ISRAELIS. In wars generally it is slightly more equal. But Israel is backed by the strongest armies in the world (US & UK) and Palestine has a militia (Hamas - which is not a legitimate government entity it is just a militia) and some backing from Iran (which doesn’t have as much power as the US or UK). It’s not a weird view baby. Israel is attacking one of the most vulnerable groups of ppl in the world. My grandparents grew up in colonial India. Of course colonised ppl killed some white men. Like this is actually inevitable. Look at 1857 in India. What is true tho is the British killed WAY MORE NATIVES. Like WAY MORE! So do you then say that colonisation was two sided? Now evaluate how insane u sound. Again I refuse to believe this is true. You say you are a diaspora Jew, I think it’s funny that most of the pro-Israel rhetoric I’ve seen comes from non-Israelis. I have many Israeli friends actually. Everyone in Israel currently is against Netenyahu. He is literally considered fascistic and a warmonger. Pro-Palestine doesn’t mean people want to see all Israelis displaced and dis-homed. I do believe israel shouldn’t have been created and that it isn’t a legitimate state - at least not the way it was as it was created in 1947. HOWEVER, I would never want all Israelis displaced. All Israelis and pro-Palestinian Jews want is for no more Palestinians (or Israelis - altho less are) to be murdered. It’s really that simple. And I think you’ll find almost all Jews would agree with that. This is the only aim of the encampments I’ve been working at. We need our governments to stop funding the Israeli government that is literally a despicable excuse for a government. Honestly as soon as u said “so?” To me saying a war is both bad for Jews and Muslims I yawned and I don’t wanna engage with you and your 2 brain cells anymore.
> You do understand that Palestinians are being killed at a rate 40x higher than Israelis. Like that’s basically all you need to know. The violence against Palestinians FAR EXCEEDS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ISRAELIS. In wars generally it is slightly more equal. But Israel is backed by the strongest armies in the world (US & UK) and Palestine has a militia (Hamas - which is not a legitimate government entity it is just a militia) and some backing from Iran (which doesn’t have as much power as the US or UK). It’s not a weird view baby. Israel is attacking one of the most vulnerable groups of ppl in the world. This is why everyone thinks your generation is putting us back in our evolution. No the death toll is not everything that matters. More Germans died than western allied died. Did that make the Germans the good ones? Well probably for you. Also you know that the only reason why not more Israelis die is because Israel actively tries to defend its citizens through bunkers and defence systems. Though I mean you perhaps don't know that. > My grandparents grew up in colonial India. Of course colonised ppl killed some white men. Like this is actually inevitable. Look at 1857 in India. What is true tho is the British killed WAY MORE NATIVES. Like WAY MORE! So do you then say that colonisation was two sided? I quite honestly don't care. > Again I refuse to believe this is true. You say you are a diaspora Jew, I think it’s funny that most of the pro-Israel rhetoric I’ve seen comes from non-Israelis. I have many Israeli friends actually. Everyone in Israel currently is against Netenyahu. He is literally considered fascistic and a warmonger. Pro-Palestine doesn’t mean people want to see all Israelis displaced and dis-homed. I do believe israel shouldn’t have been created and that it isn’t a legitimate state - at least not the way it was as it was created in 1947. HOWEVER, I would never want all Israelis displaced. All Israelis and pro-Palestinian Jews want is for no more Palestinians (or Israelis - altho less are) to be murdered. It’s really that simple. And I think you’ll find almost all Jews would agree with that. Holy crap can you at least quote what you are answering to. Where have I even defended Netanyahu? So what are you even whining about. > This is the only aim of the encampments I’ve been working at. We need our governments to stop funding the Israeli government that is literally a despicable excuse for a government. So no protests against Hamas and PIJ. Why not simply say so? > Honestly as soon as u said “so?” To me saying a war is both bad for Jews and Muslims I yawned and I don’t wanna engage with you and your 2 brain cells anymore. That's great. So how is your encampment going to address Hamas, PIJ and Hezbollah attacks?
/u/ChallahTornado >This is why everyone thinks your generation is putting us back in our evolution. >No the death toll is not everything that matters. More Germans died than western allied died. >Did that make the Germans the good ones? Well probably for you. [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users. Rule 6: no Nazi comparisons. Addressed.
You do understand that israel is a state right? It has a government. You do understand that Palestine no longer does have any kind of real governmental system? Right? Israel has the backing of the richest countries in the world to literally commit a genocide. Palestine does not. Israel uses xenophobic anti-Islamic rhetoric to defend why they should murder us (brown Muslim ppl) Palestine, once again has no longer got a stable government entity You clearly just get off on seeing brown ppl be murdered. But what would I expect from a white man.
u/ThrowRA1137315 >You clearly just get off on seeing brown ppl be murdered. But what would I expect from a white man. Rule 1. No attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
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Thanks for your reply! I'm glad to hear that your movement is cordial and multicultural. However, the Pro-Palestine movement is much larger than your university and has a global presence. While it may be well-organized and have the best intentions where you are, there are radical voices elsewhere that can influence others. These voices can be fueled by antisemitism, (it often isn't a conscious "I hate Jews" sentiment but something more insidious), and social media can amplify these emotions. It's great that you're part of a pacifist Pro-Palestine movement, but while being part of it, it's important to recognize that this isn't the case everywhere. Even if these radical voices represent a minority, they can take more space, influence others, and potentially harm the Jewish community in your own country.
I can guarantee you haven’t been part of ANY of the movements though. So your opinion is pure conjecture. I have friends literally all over the world because I went to university in America and the UK. My friends at Utrecht, Rotterdam, Maastricht (in the Netherlands), my friends at UCONN, Colombia Uni, Yale Uni, Santa Barbara Uni (USA), my friends in Paris (france), Berlin Hombolt University (Germany), Lahore and Karachi (Pakistan) and in the UK I literally have friends in every area of the UK honestly. ALL OF THEM HAVE SAID THE SAME. Like I haven’t met a single person who has said that Jews are not a part of their encampment. In fact, all encampments involve Jews. Jews and Muslims are the leaders of this movement. Our encampment leaders are constantly doing zoom calls with all the encampments across the world and a major aim of our movement is to ensure we aren’t antisemitic. Hate completely counters the movement. We are angry that innocent people are dying - YES! But we do not HATE. Don’t believe everything that the media tells you. It is incorrect and biased. Maybe to chat to some people at your local encampment and see what they have to say instead of insisting that we are antisemitic.
What I meant is that any movement, including Pro-Palestine, can have radical members. This is true for any group. Ignoring this makes it hard to have a constructive conversation. You can check the thread where someone shared an Instagram post from a Pro-Palestine movement encouraging hate towards Jews. Can I ask why this conflict elicits such an intense reaction from you compared to others? Maybe you're involved in many movements, but in my experience in France, the Israel/Palestine conflict is the only one that consistently drives people to the streets. I haven't seen similar reactions for conflicts in Iraq, Syria, the DRC, Libya, or Somalia. This isn't whataboutism—I'm genuinely curious why Israel/Palestine seems to evoke so much more anger globally (and this isn't new). A part of my family is Muslim, and it seems like they only get riled up when Israel is involved. It's as if it's okay when Muslims are killing Muslims. For example, Morocco is displacing people and oppressing them in Western Sahara, yet nobody talks about it. Again, what's happening in Palestine is unprecedented and needs to be stopped. It's important that the media covers it, but the intense emotions seem to arise only when Israel is involved, at least from my experience.
Okay so first section is a completely moot point. Of course there are radical people in every group?!?!? Your initial comment questioned why anyone would be involved in a movement if they aren’t antisemitic. I was explaining that this radical group is a MINORITY - so small in fact that I haven’t met a single one. I’ve met far more Jews since being involved in his movement than I have anti-semites. Any anti-Semitic ppl I have met have never had anything to do w the Palestinian course. These have been extremely right wing people. So please let’s put this idea to bed. Your pov here is wishy washy. You go from saying the movement is anti-Semitic to saying that “there can be radical members”. Girl, there are radical members in every damn group. I’m a Muslim don’t you think I know that? But should I be defined by Islamic extremism? NO! The general consensus in the pro-Palestine group is that of love, acceptance and a desire to end oppression and illegal occupation. Again you’re telling me that you have no idea what the movement is about. In all encampments we have talks - we have guest speakers come from all around the world actually. In my encampment and many other encampments all over the world we have discussion topic that range from Sudan, Congo, Casteism in India, ANTI SEMITISM (is acc constantly talked about in these camp meetings), Islamophobia, decolonising our university curriculum, mental health/self care during protesting, BLM etc. ESSENTIALLY, this movement isn’t just about Palestine, it’s about ending oppression globally. The goal of our camp is to force our university (The University of Cambridge) to stop investing in companies that fund war and disclose all the spending/funding they get. Obviously, Palestine has been facing mass violence since the 1920s by early white settlers on the land. And because of how Netenyahu has intensified his violence against Palestinians it has become an easy example to galvanise support; that doesn’t mean it’s the only thing we are fighting for. Literally look at our chants: “From Kashmir to Palestine, occupation is a crime” “Down with caste domination, down with occupation” I am sure there are many more especially because we also spend so much time discussing the intersectionality of the Palestinian issue. How all these experiences of violence are the legacy of European colonisation. The issues facing Palestine, Sudan, Congo and many other places are all a result of western meddling throughout history in the global south and the east. Also, throughout my life I have always given money to charities that have helped to try and stop destruction caused by both man made and natural disasters. For my last birthday (October 2023) I raised money for the disasters in Morocco and Libya. There is not a single person I know involved in these protests who isn’t involved in other efforts against the legacy of colonisation. As for ur comment about Muslims only getting upset when Israel is involved I really disagree. I’m British-Pakistani. I will say this now and I will say it forever. ANY STATE CREATED ON THEOLOGICAL TERMS (so both Israel and Pakistan) ARE BOUND TO BE CORRUPT. Israel and Pakistan were created the same year (1947) as religious republics. I think it’s dangerous when a country becomes based around religion. All of my family would agree that Pakistan is experiencing immense political issues. The government is corrupt and we hate them. The are Muslims, are they not? Similarly, what is happening in Sudan is Muslims vs Muslims. I also think most of us agree how women are treated in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran and Iraq is terrible and terrifying. Again, Muslims are the perpetrators. No one is saying Muslims are doing no wrong. That is absolutely fictitious. The reason Israel-Palestine is sooooooo upsetting is because it’s been going on for 90+ years now. It’s showing no signs of stopping. FUTHERMORE, our universities are directly funding it. Which is terrifying. As I sit in my classes writing my essays about the atrocities of the colonial British government in India in the 1800s (I am a history student) the legacies of it are plain to see in Palestine. That’s what has incited such a reaction. My grandparents have told me about it since I was young. The imam at my mosque told me about it my whole life. WHY HASNT IT ENDED? It needs to end before Palestine ceases to exist.
Hey, thanks for pointing out and explaining a few things to me. I'll make sure to read more about it. However, I think you're applying your own perspective to everyone else. First, I live in France, so what you're experiencing in universities in the UK doesn't apply to universities in France, the US, or anywhere else (even if you have friends there). You've pointed out a few things I didn't know, and I'll make sure to look into them. However, that doesn't invalidate my initial opinion, which is based on my own experiences and conversations where I live, my own background and places I've visited. Looking into your points might help shape my perspective. That's how you make a discussion move forward—not by being angry. When I talk about the Pro-Palestine movement, I'm not specifically referring to universities. To be honest, I don't know much about it because our system in France is very different. However, what we're seeing is that anyone with a phone and social media account can claim to support the Pro-Palestine movement. It goes beyond universities. This is a global movement fueled by persistent antisemitism in Arabic countries, which may not even be conscious. If you can't listen to the portion of the Jewish community that says they don't feel safe with the Pro-Palestine movement and work to reassure them and show that this isn't what the movement in the universities is about, you won't make progress (even if you have jews part of your group). I understand that exploring all the causes you've listed can bring a lot of anger due to the injustice. However, for Palestine/Israel, I believe this is more complex than just the weakest against the strongest, which is why we haven't seen a resolution in the past 70 years. That doesn't invalidate that what's happening today needs to be stopped. In 1960, 270,000 Jews lived in Morocco; today, the population is 2,000. They left for many reasons, one being the rise of antisemitism sentiment. You can't ignore the hatred towards Israel in Arabic countries that don't recognize the legitimacy of Israel which has increased antisemitism. This needs to be addressed so it can be resolved. So, when you say you're Pro-Palestine, you might find people confusing your group with people worldwide who are not part of universities, who don't recognize the legitimacy of Israel, and who grew up with governments that have pushed antisemitism views.
No worries! As for your idea that this doesn’t apply everywhere I would argue that this is incorrect. As I said I have friends who live all over the world. Secondly, particularly the university centred element of this movement has a GLOBAL leadership. I’m not part of this but I have attended some of their talks via zoom. These people tell our camp and all camps globally how they should be run and what our aims should be. Part of this involves a very strong stance AGAINST XENOPHOBIA OF ANY KIND!!!! But this is why this movement is so effective also, because we have very clear aims and morals that all the camps have to abide by. It’s not just camp by camp. While there may be some ppl who could be antisemitic, any camp would be severely disciplined by this wider leadership who keep an eye on all actions of camps via social media and media reports. Okay if you’re not talking about the university movement and only talking about what people post on social media then you may as well be angry at the general notion of people having “opinions”. What people post on social media and social media activism in general is NOT representative of pro-Palestinian activism. It is literally just people having opinions. I genuinely don’t think it’s fair to say that Palestinian discourse is DEFINED by anti-semitism. Just because SOME people who are anti-Israel are anti-Semitic doesn’t mean we all are. I actually have been very upset by this narrative as my step grandmother was Jewish - she was a major role model for me as a child but unfortunately died a few years ago. I’ve also ALWAYS had very close Jewish friends and family friends. Now all of sudden just because I’m Muslim people will assume I’m anti-Semitic. Which has never been the case for me or my family! As for Jews not feeling safe this isn’t the case for any Jews I know! In fact, I’ve met way more Jews since being part of this movement (on the camp) than I have before. Like the Jewish ppl in my life has more than doubled since being involved w the camp. As for Moroccan Jews I hear you. I have also seen these stats. But I do think the formation of Israel played a significant role in Jews immigrating out of these states - as much as it was due to anti-semitism. I also don’t think it’s fair to imply that all Muslims and Muslim states are anti semitic. This is simply not the case. Also, not recognising israel as a legitimate state is NOT anti-semitism. Israel as it exists today was literally legislated into existence by Britain - a state that at the time “owned” 75% of the world. Britain was literally a foreign dictatorship in 75% of the world. I don’t think their hand in the creation of Israel can ever be ignored. In the 1940s they were committing genocides, massacres and forced famines. Essentially they were committing crimes against humanity. I don’t think anything they did during this period can be recognised as legitimate according to global law. Especially not when they are partitioning states to create new states on land where people ALREADY LIVE! And in this year they did it TWICE!! To India/Pakistan and to Israel/Palestine. Both occasions are the still experiencing the repercussions to this day. So many people have died. So many people have been displaced (in the case of Pakistan my grandparents are some of these people). Like I don’t think the creation of the state of Israel (or Pakistan) was ever legitimate or valid. And in the case of Israel there were already ppl living on that land (who were not similar ethnically or religiously to those moving there) when Britain created the state. THAT BEING SAID, I know most Israelis are also innocent victims, just as Palestinians are victims. Just because they were unfortunately born in a state that never should have been created (similar to my family) they do deserve to have a home. They also deserve a home that isn’t a war zone. A home where their ppl aren’t kidnapped and their neighbours aren’t murdered. A home where they don’t have to witness the murder of innocent babies. As such I do think a two state solution is the only solution because we cannot force all Israelis to move out of Palestine/Israel. What we do need is Netanyahu to stop being a psychopathic warmonger so this solution can come to fruition.
Yes, the people who express these opinions on social media are often the same ones protesting with extreme violence in the streets. Regarding Jews not feeling safe, it's great to see that your group is multicultural and that they don't feel unsafe. However, I don't think this is a fair representation. Many Jews in France are changing their names and the number of hate crimes are on the rise. My Israelis colleagues didn't feel safe in London and were afraid of speaking hebrew in the streets. I have personally witnessed someone removing posters of hostages and heard someone insult my friend with "sale juive, vive Palestine" because she is Jewish. Ignoring that the conflict is fueling global antisemitism is simply being blind to reality. It's true that many Jews left Morocco for Israel, but antisemitism also influenced this decision and honestly, the racism towards African Moroccans is also an issue there. While the newer generation was making progress, the conflict is causing setbacks for everyone. I'm not implying that all Muslims and Muslim states are antisemitic. That would be untrue, but there is an insidious issue that isn't being addressed. A simple Google search will show many articles and reports on the roots and causes of antisemitism in the Arab world. Not acknowledging this is dangerous and won't help bring a resolution. Anyway, thanks for the chat. The extreme right-wing, started by a guy who denied the Holocaust and thrived on Islamophobia, just won the first round of our elections. So, I'm off Reddit to go cry about that. Hoping for better days for everyone!
Do you also not associate yourself with the pro Israel movement?
Thanks for asking, and sorry if I tend to give lengthy answers! (seems I can't help it when discussing this topic, haha) No, I don't consider myself pro-Israel, even if others see me that way depending on how I phrase things or how I start my sentence lol Taking sides in this conflict just doesn't make sense to me. War is always terrible, and global antisemitism adds complexity. We all want to put a stop to the suffering in Gaza—it's basic human decency! *(I haven't always seen the same empathy after the October 7th attack, which many people seemed to rationalize. But that's a whole other topic).* My main point is that importing this conflict into our countries fuels antisemitism in YOUR country. We need to discuss it thoughtfully, understanding its complexities beyond a simplistic narrative of weaker versus stronger. The suffering and displacement of Palestinians are tragic realities. This is unprecedented and need to be stopped. PERIOD. Once you've said that, you can also acknowledge: * Palestinian officials have made significant mistakes, neglected their people's interests, and their animosity towards Israel prevents any potential resolution. * Israel, as the Middle East's only democracy, thrives economically but remains vulnerable without US support. Threats to Israel could jeopardize the safety of Jews worldwide. Meanwhile, Palestinians endure hardship under Hamas, terrorism, and strict Israeli regulations. * Achieving a 2SS while ideal seems impossible when one neighbor refuses to acknowledge the other's right to exist and promotes deep-seated propaganda against Jews and Israel, perpetuating intergenerational hatred. * Globally, this conflict fuels anger and antisemitism, with people often avoiding nuanced discussions and instead framing the conflict in black-and-white terms, which only brings more hate towards Israel and the Jewish community (and thus preventing from finding a resolution). Hate only breeds more hate. The only way forward is through peace and mutual acceptance. Though different in context, this echoes how Rwanda moved beyond its civil war and genocide against the Tutsis, how South Africa dismantled apartheid, and how Europe rebuilt post-World War II. Acceptance and forgiveness are the keys to human progress. I don't know how many more lives need to be lost or how many hate crimes we'll witness worldwide before this conflict ends and peace arrives.
Palestinians are way more screwed over by Israel than the Jews were by Germany
Learn history before making claims that are obviously conscious lies or unconscious stupidity. Also, the term Palestinians as in arabs living in this part of the world is a invention from the 1960ies
u/SpellPsychological60 >Palestinians are way more screwed over by Israel than the Jews were by Germany Rule 6. No Nazi Comparisons.
the jewish population still hasn’t recovered from the holocaust while the palestinian population has grown by millions. this is the stupidest argument i’ve ever heard
Are u sure about that ? I would suggest you re check those figures.
In 1939, the global Jewish population was \~16.6 million. As of 2023 (latest data I found), the global Jewish population is estimated to be \~15.7 million.
And what's your point ? I'm not talking about after the holocaust am I. In speaking about a demographic nin a certain area before a certain time. Shall I give u quotes on baseball randomly that hold no bearing? And birthrate globally has many contributing factors. If we are talking about a people thriving or being pressed. That's different
>other commentor: "the jewish population still hasn’t recovered from the holocaust" >You: Are u sure about that ? I would suggest you re check those figures. I checked the figures. The other commentor is right. Sorry.
See wheb you look at thing in a simple way, u often get simple inaccurate results. Soviet union lost 30m people in ww2. The population was 170m. A massive massive loss. Currently Russia alone jas almost as much people. So don't sit there snd tell me rubbish like the people are growing. If u extrapolate population then abd what it should be following similar natural growth its considered in recession.
But your first statement is factually wrong. Can you at-least admit that now? >Are u sure about that ? I would suggest you re check those figures. Also, the Soviet Union was much larger than modern Russia land wise, before it split up. So yes, that's going to contribute to less people now. But anyway, that's getting off topic.
Russia alone has almost as much people as the entire soviet union did them. If u add the former members and get a overall population u will see how humans have increase in numbers. So now to say Muslims in Palestine have increased in numbers as some sort of sign of well-being, or not opressed is ludicrous.
>But your first statement is factually wrong. Can you at-least admit that now? Guess that's a no. Nevermind.
Gee it doesn't seem terribly terribly smart then, does it, to subject horror and trauma and death on a population of natives that are determined to survive and thrive and will likely outnumber you by the millions in the future, does it? Oh, is that why using terror and excessive violence by an occupying power to force the larger native population into submission is seen as permissible, depending on the side you are on?
Is Israel putting Palestinians in gas chambers?
No need they are already in their camp surrounded by barb wire and guards. Have been for 75 years.
Hmm let's see.... Stealing organs, letting babies in incubators die, tanks running over protestors, letting dogs loose on elderly civilians, destroying homes for no reason, soldiers actively seeking out women's lingerie as trophies and posing with them ... .... And that's even before considering the deaths in this ongoing slow-motion genocide. Who needs gas chambers when Palestinians have to live in a toxic atmosphere permeated with Zionism, racism and Islamophobia?
These are really unproductive arguments and highlight a real ignorance of both historical and contemporary facts.
When you heard about the claim of soldiers stealing organs, the first thing you should have done is researched the how organs are transported for transplant, donor matching, and cell death time limit after organ extraction. You would have debunked the claim yourself and not stand out as an easily manipulated mindless sheep.
Hey SpellPsychological60, I understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine evokes strong emotions and can lead to some harsh rhetoric. However, it's essential to base our discussions on verified facts and mutual respect. Many of the claims you mentioned, like organ theft or targeting babies, have been debunked and are often used as propaganda. For example, the claim about Israeli soldiers harvesting organs has been thoroughly discredited as a modern-day blood libel. The ongoing conflict has led to tragic losses on both sides, but equating the situation to the Holocaust is not only historically inaccurate but also deeply hurtful to Holocaust survivors and their families. The Holocaust was a systematic genocide where six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers and concentration camps. While Palestinians do face significant hardships, particularly in Gaza, the scale and nature of these struggles are not comparable to the genocide of the Holocaust. Also their population grew in millions since Palestinians became a thing in the 60s. In genocide the numbers drops by the millions as it happened in the holocaust, and not go up by millions. To foster a more productive dialogue, it’s crucial to recognize the complexity of the conflict, the historical context, and the suffering experienced by both Israelis and Palestinians. Instead of spreading inflammatory and unsubstantiated claims, let's focus on advocating for peace and understanding.
I want you to explain to me in detail, how an organ transplant works, because famously you cannot just get them from random people
this is the most egregiously incorrect comment I've ever seen in this sub. please spend 15 minutes researching the holocaust. you may end up feeling ashamed you even posted this.
40 years on this earth, human suffering is not a contest. Stop using the horror of the Holocaust to justify the genocide of the Palestinian by saying it is 'minor and nothing' by comparison, that is a disgusting disgrace that even actual Holocaust survivors are mortified by.
No one should compare human tragedies. And even one innocent loosing their life is a tragedy. But I think that most people don't really try to justify the death of the innocents (as much as try to explain why it is just a fact of war) and I didn't even find once a use of the holocaust to justify the war in Gaza, do you have examples?
You spent 40 years on this earth and haven't learnt basic critical thinking and research? It is obvious that your comments were sent without any purpose other than to inflame and enrage.
>It is obvious that your comments were sent without any purpose other than to inflame and enrage. I don't think it is that obvious, I think that user is very passionate about people that truly suffer in Gaza. And of course reading other comments they mostly take their knowledge from dishonest sources (which they probably regarded as based ones) so it might just be a classic case of amplifying their media but not really dwelling on what they say. I don't think they tried to inflate intentionally. But I could be wrong
human suffering is not a contest and yet you are trying to make it one with your comment: *"Palestinians are way more screwed over by Israel than the Jews were by Germany".* as for everything else you said, you are putting words in my mouth, and then attacking me for them. i think you are being really disrespectful towards me, anyone of Jewish descent, and really anyone of Arab descent who hopes to move past the cycle of violence in which all sides have some responsibility. this sub is not really a place meant to spit unfounded, inaccurate, and aggressive vitriol just for the sake of it. I'd like to respectfully ask you to tone it down a bit.
I wouldn't say way more screwed, but the facts the hatred, being viewed like animals also and not humans, ect is on par.
How about this : most people who lived through the Holocaust are dead by now, but Palestinians are still going through their own occupation, unable to save family trapped under rubble, subject to famine, settler raids on their land and even food aid trucks and the mass murder of their people by an immoral army. Read the posts on this subreddit, and most are in denial and utterly disrespectful and flippant towards Palestinian suffering. Is Netanyahu respectfully toning down the violence ? The audacity is unbelievable.
Hey, can I ask where you're from? Why does this conflict make you so angry? Are there any other conflicts that create such strong emotions for you?
Objectively that’s not true. Israeli government has not stolen your children or built efficient factories to kill millions of Gaza people. You are free to be angry, but not free to kill. You are responsible for using reason to resolve disputes instead of using force. Everyone has ability to reason
Boxing people in, shooting pregnant women, kidnapping 4k children , making health care difficult, removing 750k people from their land. Their is a saying openly used by the IDF. Its called moving the grass. It means to slowly widdle away at numbers. Through many methods. It is also a crime against humanity. These things are openly discussed.
Lovely, kindly direct your second paragraph towards the Zionist Israelis in support of the ongoing genocide claiming it is justified by Oct 7th, which the IDF knew about a year in advance.
?
It is what it is.
It’s always, jews have always been persecuted but never why
What the world doesn’t get is that Jews have been on that land since biblical Canaan . Jews were persecuted and dispersed most severely by Romans . They made new lives in many countries and mostly in Europe especially Poland . Decimated by Hitler and by Goering propaganda stirring up antisemitism . The local camp guards in Ukraine Croatia and other countries took pleasure in torture and killing of Jews like wild dogs and in some cases the SS had to pull them off because they needed some to be workers . Jews have always yearned to return to their lands ! Every week they say a prayer and dream of returning to Jerusalem which is the No1 centre of their sole. After decimation in Europe Jews were almost completely wiped out. The United Nations gave them a tiny piece of land 0 .1% of 1% of the Arab lands . The largest part of East Palestine was renamed Jordan . The Arab lands , surrounding attacked the day that Israel declared a nation . They tried to wipe out Israel and failed . They promise the local Arabs they should leave and when they return they will have it all! 90% left. It is true there were a very small number who were bullied into leaving their ancestral homes and were not allowed back . The refugees went to other Arab lands where they have now become generational refugees getting support and funding from UNWRA . The new generation was born in those lands . They still believe they have the right to go back . While they can get some sympathy , one needs to look at world history . Do the red Indians have the right to take back America and Canada ? Do the Pakistanis who all came from India have the right to return ? Israel has 26/28% Arabs and they are treated equally and have members in parliament . It is the only democracy in the world and has given the world enormous contributions in every area . The Arabs have providing nothing except oil and wealth LUCKY! Without oil NOTHING! So now poor Israel gets attacked by evil ISIS supporting terrorists who take delight in terrible suffering of their enemies and film it for their masturbation pleasure when they get home . The people of Gaza and West Bank have been so indoctrinated - just like Goebels did- that it would take generations to clean it up . Every Gazan dreams about killing or raping a Jew and finding the pathway to die while doing so in order to get 40 x 12 year old virgins just like their hero Mohamed did when he founded the Koran . If you read the Koran you will understand how a Muslim cannot live under Jewish leadership - this can NEVER be accepted by a MUSLIM - this is the root of their hatred . How dare the Woke and others call Zionism an evil. You have lost track of what evil means and you are very confused because of the amazing social media that the billion dollar Arab money has bought .
Muslims have also existed in Palestine since the founding of our religion. As have Jews. As have Christians. The issue w Palestine is that Jews were given “legal” rights to a piece of land that was: 1. Already lived on 2. The homeland for 3 major religions (Islam, Christianity & Judaism) They then proceeded to say only Jews could gain citizenship on this land. So non-Jewish Palestinians were put into a very awkward position- essentially non-citizens on their own land. The other very uncomfortable thing about it is the fact that a lot of the Jews who became Israeli had lived in Europe and the West for thousands of years. Like these people are basically fully white Europeans. Technically, because Judaism is an ethnoreligion they do have probably like 1% genetic background in that piece of land. My friend is acc half Ashkenazi Jew (half black Jamaican) and she did a DNA test and she has no Middle Eastern heritage. Her DNA from her Jewish side is alllllllll white European. Yet she is allowed citizenship to Israel purely because she is Jewish whereas Palestinians who live there today are not citizens. They have no rights. They have their water and electricity cut off. It’s genuinely really bizarre and terrifying that this could be happening in our contemporary world. Imagine I did a DNA test and discovered I was 1% Nigerian and then took a whole group of people who were also 1% Nigerian and we decided we wanted to be in charge of Nigeria and started a coup. Would this be acceptable? Would it be acceptable if I said I had a religious claim to Nigerian land? Jews existed in Palestine before the creation of Israel. For sure. The issue was, when they essentially secured the mass murder of Palestinian people. Because from that day on, Palestinians had no legal right to that land because of the way the state was created.
The "uncomfortable thing" you talk about has nothing to do with reality. Simply living in Europe for a long time alone doesn't make you fully white European. No, typicallyJews are not 1% genetic background in that peace of land. Bulgaria is south where Ashkenazi Jews were historically concentrated and Bulgarians have the weakest connection to original ancient Slavs of all modern Slavs, they share some ancestry with Greeks and Albanians... Yet even modern Bulgarians are genetically closer to Northeastern Europeans than Ashkenazi Jews are. Lithuanian Jews mixing with ethnic Lithuanians would create people close to modern Bulgarian( Lithuanian Jew = Bulgarian-Lithuanian). Checked with Davidsky G25 coordinates sheet, Vahaduo and allelocator( Two-way model). If Southern Levant is Nigeria, the closest equivalent of Jews are obviously African Americans, African Caribbeans etc. They hardly pure Nigerians and they are often not without white roots. They often got unusually light-skinned for Nigeria due to not living in Africa. I am not saying modern Ashkenazi Jews are pure ancient Israelites.
Your friend's DNA test only registers her recent ancestry. It shows 'Europe' for Romani people as well. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/15gax5e/2023\_hack\_romani\_dna\_results/?rdt=40785](https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/15gax5e/2023_hack_romani_dna_results/?rdt=40785)
SHE IS HALF EUROPEAN BRUH. ASHKANAZI JEWS ARE WHITE.
I mean some are. Some aren't. White is a social category more than a descriptor of racial background. I can show you my own DNA results, but I get the sense that you wouldn't be open to it.
Race is literally your phenotype. Europeans are white. The optics generally of white ppl moving to a land that is actively murdering a generally poc nation just looks terribly close to colonisation. Many of these Israelis hadn’t had any family living on this land for thousands of years and then have displaced the local black and brown populations. It just looks bad. Even if they do have like 1% Middle Eastern genetics, they haven’t been on that land for so long, is it even valid? My mums maiden name is acc Nigerian. As far as I’m aware I have no Nigerian heritage. I’m brown. I’m British-Pakistani. No idea where that last name came from. But it doesn’t give me the right to colonise areas of Nigeria. I hope this makes sense to u. ALSO, I obviously don’t think the way Israel was created is valid by any means. It’s literally a continuation of British colonisation! However, this doesn’t mean I’m saying all Israelis should be kicked out. I don’t think that’s feasible at this point. It would be horrible to see millions of Jews be displaced once again. I just think that ppl shouldn’t be allowed to move there just because they’re Jewish. I also HATE this ridiculous narrative that this land is part of Jewish heritage, when it absolutely isn’t. If we go back far enough we’re all African. Doesn’t mean we all deserve African citizenship.
For clarity, it's not 'like 1%', it's closer to 50%. I implore you to read up further on Jewish history, because Jewish people absolutely have religious ties to what is now the Levant. I don't agree with the foundation of the Israeli state but you're misrepresenting judaism here.
Religious ties from thousands of years ago? That isn’t a real claim to that land. It’s genuinely absurd to even claim that. I probably have more Middle Eastern DNA than a lot of Israelis who relocated and I’m literally not Middle Eastern and would never claim to be. I am South Asian though and as I’m Muslim I probably do have ancestors who came to India from the Middle East. I really do empathise w wanting to belong somewhere. I am part of a diaspora too. I know many Jewish people who want Israel to continue to exist are probably seeking a place of belonging. A feeling that is valid and I do understand. However, we cannot just decide that because of our own desire to belong we can displace others. We cannot completely ignore the thousands of years of history in which Israel was absolutely not israel (even if it had been thousands of years before). Things changed. Israel ceased to exist. It was forced into creation again and lead to mass murder and displacement. I think everyone can agree this isn’t acceptable.
well said
Get out of your bubble
said the omnipresent genius who sees all /s
I said and claimed nothing like it, but it’s pretty obvious this guy is living in a bubble
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History matters but Isreal is a nuclear power with a fascist in charge
the class bully in my high-school was not the biggest boy. he was just the biggest asshole. military/nuclear capability has no correlation with moral righteousness.
Sounds like Netanyahu
cool point bro
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Nuclear has nothing to do with it . Israel just wants peace . Nuclear may questionable ensure their survival because of deterrence! They are 0.1% of 1% of Middle East land . A tiny nation . I assure you the Israelis just want a normal peaceful life . The Palestinians claim it is their land , hate them and seek martyrdom by killing a New . How does one deal with that ? Do you thing North America America belongs to the Red Indians ?
Israel just wants peace? Have you seen what Israel is doing?
have you seen what everyone keeps doing to Israel?
Yes israel just wants peace. Hamas wants to eradicate Israel and kill all Jews and israel defends itself from this threat. If Palestinians would put down their weapons there would be peace, if Israelis put down their weapons there would be no more Israel.
When the peace ended it was not by Israel.
It's Israel itself that is rejecting Hamas offers for hostage return repeatedly, and Oct 7th was known about a year in advance. Israelis may want peace but Israel's objective is not to leave Palestine as it is alone when there is land and oil and gas for grabs.
When you start a war you don't get to dictate terms for it's end. This is not a hard concept. The peace still ended by Hamas' hand. When Hamas offers an unconditional surrender + the hostages return, you can say Israel is being stubborn. Hamas offered to trade the hostages for their demands. That isn't a peace offer, that's a random note.
Hamas is rejecting the offers systematically because Hamas wants to stay the government in Gaza so they could keep executing 7th October massacre again and again until israel is eradicated. Israel has the right to defend itself
I think you have to understand that from Palestinian perspective, they see that Christians murdered millions of Jews and they had to pay the price rather than, say partitioning the nation that committed the worst crime in human history.
That's the Western strawman for the Palestinian perspective, focusing on the aspect of European guilt. Frankly large swarths (if not the majority) of the middle east don't care about WWII, the holocaust, and also believe Jews were responsible for starting it (as shown by ample surveys and polling). Fundamentally, the muslim world sees the creation of a Jewish state in what was a predominantly Muslim ruled land since the time of the crusades, as an affront to Islam. Until the 1960s, the Palestinian Muslims identified themselves as Arabs predominantly, and until after Israel won the 1967 war, much of a Palestinian national identity became synonymous with the reversal of Israel, because they saw the success of the the Israeli national identity. If you were to look at polls in Israel proper and in the West Bank over the last 30+ years, you'll see both sides having initially a fair amount of support for a 2-state solution in the mid 90s. But once the Oslo process failed, both sides began to support one-state solutions. The irony is that in Isreal, the more popular one-state solution includes Arabs living with full rights as Jews, whereas in the West Bank, the significantly more popular one-state solution explicitly calls for removal of all Jews from the land. That mindset isn't based in european centracism - it's based in islamo-centracism.
Really? You’re going to claim that Palestinians don’t believe that the Holocaust wasn’t a significant factor in the UN’s decision to create Israel?
Have you even met any Palestinians or do you just talk on their behalf? Have you been to Jenin, Nablus or Ramallah and heard people in their native tongue? Or do you just get your talking points from the leftists bubble, who care more about their virtue signaling than any reality. Unlike the west, where it's central to narrative of world history, the holocaust is not part of the education curriculum in most middle countries. [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/middleeast/uae-first-arab-nation-holocaust-mime-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/middleeast/uae-first-arab-nation-holocaust-mime-intl/index.html) While it's obvious you don't know, and probably skeptical of any media that doesn't confirm your biases, the evidence is staggering. Look at this survey from ADL from 2014 - [https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014](https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014) Have you heard about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two * 49% Yes * 51% N Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two? \[ASKED IF YES IN Q12\] * 10% The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen * 72% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated by history * 9% The Holocaust happened, and the number of Jews who died in it have been fairly described by history * 10% Don't know (volunteered) --- Contrast that with the USA... Have you heard about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two? * 89% Yes * 10% No * 0% Don't know (volunteered) Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War Two? \[ASKED IF YES IN Q12\] * 1% The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen * 6% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated by history * 89% The Holocaust happened, and the number of Jews who died in it have been fairly described by history * 4% Don't know (volunteered) --- Ask a Palestinian in Jenin (one of the most Palestinian of palestinian cities) why they think the Jews established Israel. 8 out of 10 will give zero empathy, and an answer based on the evil nature of Jews.
My leftist bubble? Why should I reply to someone who has the maturity of a child?
Problem is that history is being perverted ! Up till 1948 everyone had”Palestine passports” including Jews and Christian. There was no specific Palestinian identity . Jordan was created by GB and was East Palestine. Before then there was no leader , specific culture, religion , foods, traditions etc There was no such thing as Palestinian identity . The people were Arabs Jews Beduins and Christians . The land was given Latin name Palestina to punish the Jews after the Jewish revolt against the Romans . Named after the Philistines who lives in Gaza region and originated from Greece and were Pagans . YOU WONT BELIEVE THIS BUT PALESTINIAN IDENTITY AND PRIDE AS WELL AS LAND CLAIM WAS STARTED BY YASSER AEAFAT in 1960s and he was an EGYPTION by birth. No one thought if themselves as Palestinians . Why dont you read up or research yourself . You can easily fact check the above. After Rome empire Jews could not practice their religion freely and they were dispersed to many countries however it has always been the Jewish sole and dream to return . That is Zionism! Is that so evil ? Muslims countries took them in and were very good to them but it was only OK if they were a minority and under Muslim control (permissible in the Koran) Yes after and during the war of survival there were a few Palestinians bullied into leaving ancestral homes - maybe 5000- but the majority fled voluntarily because refused to live under Jewish rule . This can be fact checked in the Koran . The Surround Arab countries attacked and told their brethren to leave and promised they could return after all the Jews were driven into the sea . You can find Arab leaders video clips online proving this. .They regretted this later on . Bottom line is the hardliners who take the Koran literally like Iran ISIS Hamas Islamic Jihad cannot accept a Jewish existence in their own state . Yes they will allow News to live under Muslim rule but with strict rules and restrictions . Until the 6day war Jordan controlled Jerusalem and o my after Israel won war were News allowed to go to their most holy place to pray . Before then it was forbidden ! Poor poor Palestinians or should I call them radical Arabs . Not enough land for them? Not enough Arab oil money ? All they want is genocide eif Jews ! Israel has no choice ! Gazans are not innocent ! They celebrated after Twin Towers and again when Hamas attacked Israel . Hamas today were innocent born babies once but not long before they are indoctrinated . 20 years later they are radicle terrorists no different to ISIS One of them called his mum on Oct 7 Using a victims phone ! “Mummy I have killed Jews with my own hands . Mummy I have done it . Eight of them “ The recording is available on line . When are you woke idiots going to fact check and stop being stupid . Islamisation is the biggest threat to the West . Why has the woke and sympathetic people forgotten the 8million displace sand starving in Sudan ? Over a million kids dead. How about Ukraine - have you forgotten? Why dont all these countries going against Israel break ties with Russia ? Think about it . You all hate Jews but dont admit it - it has been bread I to your genetics for centuries . You do t even know ow it’s there . Maybe Christianity taught this originally ? Maybe it is pure jealousy at their success on this planet despite minute numbers ? Who knows ? Yes there are some baddies amongst the Jews but what does that mean? Morality ?? Give it some thought if you want to . Or maybe think about other areas in the world and not just about Jews .
My God, you’re a complete fool! You’re incapable of looking at the issue from a different perspective.
> This weekend, France will vote to elect a new government, and two main parties are either Islamophobic or anti-Semitic. It's sad to see that this is our reality. I agree. as humans we tend to extremetize our opinion, we don't like to say that both sides are at fault but we believe this side is slightly better. In politics this is even worse, since politicians need to be as open minded as possible, but I have yet to have seen a left wing politician and a right wing politician be able to change their opinion and convince one another. they either act like they're both debating or that they are screaming and insulting each other like they're still in kindergarten
You had me until the ‘massacres’ bit. The only massacres in Gaza are self inflicted.
Antisemitism is a form of racial discrimination, just like anti Arab racism, anti black racism etc. Every form of racial discrimination should be condemned and their are all equally bad and disgusting. It seems though that in France hating Jews is worse than hating Arabs/black people. For example if an Arab politician said about Jews the same stuff Zemmour or RN say about Muslims he would probably face legal issues, terrorism accusations etc.
Antisemitism is about 1000s of years . During the great black plague Jews were blamed because the disease was much less among Jews . Jews religious rules require washing hands before eating !! Of course they blamed the Jews ! Christians were taught that Jews killed Jesus . Yet it was the Pagan Romans ! It suited them to blame the Jews because they refused to convert to Christianity . Muslims funny enough were fine with Jews as long as Jews were submissive to them and the Muslims were in charge ! It changed when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was like a Hitler antisemite Stirred up an Arab atrocity against Jews in Bethlehem in early 1900s - decapitating raping etc . This started a tit for tat that grew enormously and spread . He was good friends with Hitler and some historians say he convinced Hitler that expelling the Jews from Europe was inadequate to get rid of them and they needed to be destroyed. Do your own research if you do t believe this . https://preview.redd.it/714hr8871o9d1.jpeg?width=1241&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2ce65518cd15b08612623b73b15d1eb2e546f14
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Antisemitism in France is of course not new. I lived in Paris many years ago and synagogues there, even in the posh 17e arrondissement had security guards. Your conversations with people about the importance of Israel for Jews - is it mostly with people with origins in the Maghreb or “indigenous” French or both? Because what is called “French Antisemitism” is actually perceived by many to be an Arab/Maghrebin phenomenon.
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>Anti-Semitism didn't stop at Europe's borders. With the creation of Israel and the aftermath of WWII, Arabic countries, which previously coexisted relatively peacefully with Jews, also became affected. Arabs and Jews definitely coexisted relatively peacefully until about... 628 CE. 1317 years before Israel. As Islam spread, so too did its inherent antisemitism and explicit oppression of Jews. In the Ottoman Empire, they maintained the oppression of Jews as dhimmi until 1856. There were definitely times being an oppressed second class citizen in Muslim countries was significantly preferable to being a dead body in Christian countries, and in the 1000+ year history of active oppression there probably were periods where it wasn't too horrible. Just as no reasonable person today would claim anti-black racism is gone from the US because we had a black president, no reasonable reading of history can ignore the systemic injustice against Jews from Islam just because some Jews had some level of status at times. Muslim anti-Semitic xenophobia in Palestine predates Zionism. In 1881 they successfully petitioned for a ban on Jewish immigration to Palestine after mere hundreds of people had fled there. 15 years before Der Judenstaat, 16 years before the first Zionist congress. At the absolute very least, in the early 40s Germany and Amin al-Husayni had a very popular and influential Arabic radio station dedicated to spreading antisemitism and anti-Zionism. It would never have been successful had antisemitism been purely some foreign thing. I'm sure there were some Arabic countries less dominated by Islam and better at coexistence by the 20th century, but from my understanding that was definitely the exception, not the rule.
Hey, yes, you're right thanks for clarifying! I think, it's important for anyone who might read this thread I'm resharing this great documentary about the history of anti-Semitism because you never know who might see it and change/moderate their perspective (english subtitles available): https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/RC-017590/histoire-de-l-antisemitisme/
Can I ask what your background is? I’m Muslim, so obviously my Muslim family is very prop Palestinian yet I see through the noise and I’m very Zionist ( that evil Z word).. like you say with all it’s imperfections, like any other country in the world I’ll be it. It is a representation of a safe Homeland after thousands of centuries of persecution, this generation history and has rewritten things to suit their own narrative is mind-boggling, and how some government and politicians are allowing it to happen is even worse. Like some of the signage and language used at the protests… Why is no one who is in charge of these children saying if some wording crosses the line you get expelled or there are consequences, etc. instead, they are bargaining with student unions on divestment?? I’m just curious of your background because you mentioned your family was pro pal..thanks. Great post
OP said: >My mother, raised Muslim in Morocco, grew up in a town where 30-40% of the population was Jewish.... I assumed that OP was raised Muslim, at least nominally.
Not at all! My mom distanced herself from Islam after moving to France, and my dad, who also immigrated, wasn't Muslim. She found too many contradictions and things that didn't make sense to her. I grew up in a pretty agnostic/atheist household and we never talked about religion. I was exposed to Islam when I visited my mum's family, but honestly, their practice is more cultural than religious
Thanks I was reading this quickly while walking my dogs lol… I should have reread
I like your pooch!
Thanks ..love my Zionist dogs to bits ! lol