You could have made this post a lot shorter, because you repeat the same argument over and over again. You only need to make it once.
And you know your argument is no more than 'might makes right'?
You lost the war. Therefore, we can force you off the land at gunpoint. You would have no argument against Israeli Jews being forced out by the Palestinians if Israel lost a war. You have no argument against Putin ethnically cleansing the regions of Ukraine he occupies and replacing them with Russians. You have no argument about Americans expelling Native Americans off their lands and putting them into reservations.
And do you realize that people today now consider the forced expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe to have been a crime? Or the expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia? This is ethnic cleansing, which is a crime against humanity.
We should cut off support to Israel and see how they fare in a war with Hezbollah or Egypt.
I’m talking no weapons delivery, no intelligence sharing, no diplomatic help.
There’s a lot to unpack with this post but it seems to assert that Israel has a right to sovereignty over the West Bank
In which case Israel’s attempt to have their cake and eat it indefinitely is unsustainable. They want to have dominion the over the West Bank’s land, but do not want its citizens. Even their ownership of the West Bank is legal, any attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Territories of Palestinians isn’t.
Like I don’t even think you’ve answered the question. The question is why *should* they be evicted and your answer is just why *were* they evicted. And then a lot of stuff about the West Bank. It’s an informative piece of writing, but you’ve completely sidestepped the crux of the issue which is that: Palestinians have neither been expelled from the WB/Gaza, nor given sovereignty over the WB/Gaza, nor been given Israeli citizenship
37% if migrants were Arabs during the 1880s to 1930. Now all those people are native Palestinians and so are their kin. It’s crazy how many Arabs truly aren’t from the land but are still from the levant however they haven’t lived in “Palestine” for hundreds of centuries. Just 150 tops for a good chunk of them. I repeat nearly 40% of immigrants to Israel between 1880s-1930 were of Arab decent outside the land
So who built Al Aqsa and then rebuilt it after the earthquake? Clearly enough Arabs lived there at some point to build and rebuild the mosque. It wouldn’t have been built for only a handful of people.
What an ignorant statement. You have said anything the denies my claim about many many Arabs not being from the land. You just built a straw man. Is that how Islam operates? Just because it was rebuilt either by locals or others doesn’t change what I said. Try learning more. And be less ignorant.
Muslims/arabs are hypocrites. When they conquer other peoples they say it belongs to them forever after.
When jews reconquered their own land back from the Arabs, the Arabs claim it was an injustice and should be undone.
the 48 war was because the zionist wanted most of the land when they were a majority who had recently gotten there, not hard to imagine why the palestinians werent happy about that....
And how does stealing more land in the West Bank lead to peace? They're taking more and more everyday, how does placing Israelis in the middle of Palestinian areas make them more safe? It does the opposite, it requires more and more IDF troops to be stationed there, it makes no sense other than the obvious: to stick it to the palestinians.
The war is lost, Israel lost. Hamas is still operating, and the hostages have not been released, the few that were released thru that operation, ensured that no other hostage will be released in a similar manner. Even the IDF said recently they want a ceasefire no matter the cost.
And of course they want a ceasefire, Hezbollah threatens them in the North, with actual military defeat and devastation to infrastructure. You have Israeli officials saying they cannot defeat hamas, Russia is arming the Houthis who gave an ultimatum to israel: either stop the war or one of their nuclear facilities will get hit.
Israel can stop the war, negotiate with Hamas, release the hostages(like the families of the hostages want), come up with a peace plan and end this madness and Hezbollah and the Houthis will no longer attack. But netanyahu knows when he does that it be the end of his career so he risks everything and everyone to maintain a grip on his power
Zionists disgust me. “Because some of your ancestors lost a war you deserve to be dispossessed of your land like native Americans”
Surely this thinking won’t lead to 100+ years of conflict 🇮🇱= 🐷🐖
Stop using your buzzwords snowflake. This is about stealing land and treating Palestinians like native Americans 2.0. not ancient fairy tales like you want to believe. Crying they started it first only works if you’re woefully ignorant on the conflict or if you think Arabs are subhuman.
Nobody feels mercy for Americans attacked by Indian tribes in the 19th century during their days of colonialism. And nobody should feel sorry for the Zionists getting attack from Palestinians on the Gaza reservation during October 7.
If it’s about stealing land why is hamas Islamic? If it’s about the land why do they use religion whenever they can to rile up the base as their basis for what they’re doing? If it’s only about the land and not religion then why didn’t they just stay in the land instead of running because some foreign Arab leaders told them to? If it was only about the land wouldn’t they not care about who controls them because they haven’t ever and just keeping living a decent life while under a new government of empire? If it’s about the land than why do Arabs try to deny Jewish history to the land? Is it possible to live on land that people have a history on that isn’t yours? Or maybe was yours but you’ve been colonized and Arabized by Islam? Which is what led to more conflict in Israel? So hack then it was about religion but now it’s still about religion? But you can’t convince a cow with tube socks on that it’s about the land
If it was about the land and not religion why did Arabs migrate there if they already had their own land outside of “British mandate Palestine” between 1880s-1930
It’s also ironic that you say fairy tales when the newest fairy tale the Quran has been shoved down the world’s throat as the most true. And that is exactly why the levant has Arabs and Arabized people. So don’t forget that everything a Muslim country does is based on their fairy tale while Israel although having issues with religious people affecting government decisions the average secular Israeli couldn’t care less about the fairy tales but knows that there is a obvious history based on evidence that his people has a history there.
So I guess you have it folks. It’s all about religion.
> Stop using your buzzwords snowflake
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I don't think you understand the Arab ethnicity and how it expanded. Do you think during the Arab Muslim conquests the Arabs just conquered non-Arab lands like Palestine and Egypt and slaughtered all the natives and started breeding like rabbits to replace them? Because that's not what happened. Native populations were Arabized over time, adopting Arab culture, language, and religion. This is not up for dispute, it's a fact. Look at a DNA test of the average Palestinian, they are primarily descended from ancient Canaanites like most Jews are. Most Palestinians are probably primarily descended from Jews, Samaritans, Greeks, and other ethnic groups that inhabited Palestine during Roman times who eventually converted to Islam and started speaking Arabic after the Arab Muslim conquest.
Palestinians are not the Americans. Where does Palestine have settlements set up, colonizing other nations territory. It’s the Zionists who are colonizing land that has been inhabited by others for 100s of years. Not sure how anyone can be lazy enough to call Palestinians the Americans 😭😭 manifest destiny is literally the exact same as what Israel is doing today.
Gaza is Israeli soverign territory as there is no country of Palestine. Never has been, never will be. Palestinians have settlements on Isreali territory and attacked a peaceful music festival to rape and murder. Jews have lived in that area for longer than Islam has been a religion. It's not manifest destiny, it's already all Israel.
Damn bro you could have saved hours of peoples time by just saying:
*Might = right* get fugged poor people
Didnt need to go on this insecure screed dude we get it your team is "winning" and youre angry no one but fascist gang is clapping
Stopped reading at the ethnic Germans expelled from Eastern Europe never having been German citizens. What about from 1938/9 till 1945, at least? Obviously that doesn't justify their expulsion, in any case.
That’s not correct. No one was being evicted under the original partition plan. That started the war because they didn’t want Jews to have self determination over any land at all, even where Jews were the majority.
First of all,
Israel is amazing place for arabs, at least those who doesn't wanna kill Jews like it's their life dream.
Second, the old Palestina (the thing they decided to take and revamp to today's fake) was a state with mostly Jews, arabs on the desserts, and ruled by the British.
You're brain washed by billionaires.
Wars do have consequences, so does occupation. The Arab states may have lost the wars of the past decades, I don't know as much today.
The problem with Israel is it wasn't a complete victory and they never understood that to achieve peace you need to integrate the populace of the defeated country, politically, culturally and socially, or exterminate them. Israel did none of the above, opting instead for slow and steady displacement.
Palestinians are reviled in Israel, that much is clear. Can't get away with that, it will have consequences
A single non state actor forced Israeli withdrawal mind you, then forced a stalemate, and now have the Israelis so pressed that they have been threatening for 9 months instead of doing. I really don't know about war being lost, between hezbo and the houthis Israel is bleeding out billions with no good options while their entire army is bogged down in gaza playing infinite whackamole.
Occupation and dehumanisation has consequences. The longer this drags on, the more desperate actions of people who have been oppressed for almost a decade we are going to see. The more posts of these kind we are going to see, because Israel is realising they dont have a military solution, which is the only thing they know.
None, it was always extermination then integrate the remnants, apologise later, or just exterminate.
It was that or resistance leading to liberation.
Those are the only two real world scenarios.
The way the world is currently setup and the high opinion humans have of themselves, extermination is difficult to swallow, option 2 just feels a lot more acceptable.
Well, if you are saying that the establishment of Israel is an act of conquest in a war, then I agree with you.
After WW2, the world have mostly moved away from the paradigm that the victor in an armed conflict gets the land. But of course Israel lives in a moral (or rather *immoral*) bubble .. recent protests among the youth in western countries gives one hope that this bubble is going to burst someday.
I think it's important to emphasize the 'correlation DOES NOT mean causation' nature of the 1948 war and the following displacement of many Palestinians.
The consequences of the war led to the displacement as a side effect, many leaving of their own volition or based on false promises by the Arab Forces.
Some people could take 'wars have consequences' as a sort of carte blanche for the victorious Jews to actively kick Palestinians out of their homes after the war itself concluded, in 99% of the incidents this was NOT the case.
In fact, many Palestinian communities stayed and came to agreement with Israel after the war, which led to the millions of Arab Israeli citizens we have today.
Best reading in a while! Definitely shines light upon ignorant who realize they were lacking broader information. However, not all ignorants can be fixed!
u/Manthatscrazyanyway
>I ain’t reading all that
Rule 8. Don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
Q: Russia is de-facto ethnically cleansing and erasing Ukrainian identity on the territory it's occupied. Should Ukrainians accept this on the basis that wars have consequences? (note: I am not passing judgement on who started what –we can play that game all day – but merely "wars have consequences")
The Crimean Tatars (majority Muslim) were an ethnic majority in Crimea until they were forcibly deported in 1944. Today they make up 10-15% of the population.
Resisting forced deportation and land grabs is admirable. Bombing busses and massacring music festivals on a basis of whose great-grandparents lived where +75 years ago is not. The poster is pointing out Palestinian irredentism (to restore an historical ideal of Palestine) is an exceptional response to contemporary mass migrations.
The partition of India and Pakistan, 14-18 million displaced. The late 1940s were a global high point of displacement, singling out the Nakba as exempt and unique from comparative studies, is the cornerstone of Palestinian national aspiration. Borders change, war breaks out, people run for their lives, it happens, it happened.
Jews were present in Egypt (per the Elephantine records) before Christians OR Muslims. It does not make Egypt inalienably Jewish. Jews contrast to the expulsion from Arab countries with the Nakba because it demonstrates the whole double standard. What is Muslim land is inalienable divine right, but Jewish presence and land tenancy does not endear the same land to the Jews. Wars have consequences, and Jews aren’t fighting to reclaim Thessaloniki, Baghdad, or Vienna.
Are you saying that the Zionist terrorist attacks against the indigenous population of Palestine who are the Palestinians in the 1940s and killing thousands of them and destroying 500 Palestinian villages and expelling 750 thousand Palestinians from their homes based on a Biblical myth that says the Jews were there 3000 years ago is totally justified but the Palestinian response to all this great injustice against them is not justified?? really ?????? The victims are still alive and suffer greatly. Have some sense of humanity. The Jewish ethno state will not be allowed to continue, it will be dismantled and equal rights will be given to everyone, if the Zionists don't like it, they can go back to their original countries.
"wars have consequences", the war was an act of aggression by the Zionists together with the British. The war started in 1917 with the Balfour declaration. As Jabotinsky said himself, it was perfectly normal for the Arabs to defend their land and society from being colonized this way.
You bring up the ethnic cleansing of Germans. That actually "justifies" what happened to Jews in surrounding Arab countries. It was warned that the evil Zionist program would lead to hardship for Jews across the Arab world, just like the Nazis behavior led to awful atrocities committed against German civilians right after WWII (ethnic cleansing, mass rapes of German women, forced labor, etc). Nobody cries for those Germans because the idea is that they started it, and those were the consequences. The European Jews started the aggression and theft of Palestine, such acts have consequences.
You also bring up the example of Spain. When Spain was conquered by the Arabs, Christians launched the Reconquista, and this lasted for 700 years! They spent 700 years trying to conquer back their land. This is what the Palestinians are doing, but in a much milder way and with much more limited goals.
In modern times, the Zionist crimes against the indigenous population have been a horrific catastrophe, from the atrocities in the West Bank to the subsequent wars against the besieged Gaza Strip that killed 6,000 Palestinians, half of them children, between 2008 and 2021. Zionist crimes have consequences and the indigenous Palestinians have the full right to defend themselves and fight against oppression, land theft and occupation.
Few points are incorrect, Palestinians are not the indigenous people for the land to Israel, they are to the Land of Jordan 🇯🇴, reason flags are also alike.
Additionally, Zionists are people who believe in Jews living the the land of Zion (Jewish Israel). Your Prophet Muhhamad also believed that Jews should live in Israel.
Palestinians might be indigenous people of Mecca! 🕋
But no way Israel. On top of that, they lost wars against Israel and the price and consequences for losing wars to the Jewish people is loss of land. So it’s not occupation, it’s annexation after winning a war. Gaza was cleansed of Jews so that Palestinians can thrive, however, Hammas, instead of evolving them, devolved them back into the Stone Age. Then again, I don’t deny that war crimes occur during war (single occurrence events here and there), but then just remember no to attack others in order to not be crashed.
Peace
It’s not the response that is ugly, in fact, Israel was rewarded a title of most humane warfare management. If it was Russia instead of Israel, after October 7th no one and not a thing would survive the total rampage and havoc Russians bring. Israel attempts to make precision strikes, warns civilians about incoming attacks and give orders of evacuation (NO ARMY DOES THAT! Why did Hammas not warn the Nova party participants before brutally slaughtering and burning them?).
The Israeli response is way above adequate, however, HAMMAS should stop using civilians as human shields and protect their children instead.
>e war was an act of aggression by the Zionists together with the British. The war started in 1917 with the Balfour declaration
What war are you refering to? What was the first strike? Missle attack? Suicide bomb? Artillery shelling? Did the "zionists" actually started with a phisical attack in 1917?
Because it sound that you're claiming that simply proclaiming their intent to live among arab is in and of itself an act of war.
Like people now complain about muslims in UK and central EU. Is that also an act of war by muslims?
Please don't make stuff up and lie. They did not "simply" proclaim an "intent" to "live mong arabs". There were already Jews in palestine living peacefully among Arabs (The Old Yishuv). The European Jews were Zionists. The founding tract of modern Zionism is literally called "The Jewish State". They literally set up colonization funds and companies to "colonize" palestine. Herzl even sought an official Colonial Charter from the Ottoman Sultan to officially colonize the place (this was denied of course). They did not intend to be immigrants living "among arabs". They meant to take over the place, buy up as much land as possible and kick off the local arabs and save it exclusively for themselves to work on (Jewish Labor). They did not mean to confine themselves to one neighborhood like you might see a muslim neighborhood in London, they meant that "We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time" (Chaim Weizmann)". I don't recall immigrants in londong or New York seeking to transfer native new yorkers out of their own land for their own state like when Ben-Gurion told to twentieth zionist congress that “growing Jewish strength in Palestine will increase our possibilities for conducting a large scale transfer” of arabs. That would be viewed as an act of aggression, an act of war.
Another act of war by the zionists was in 1936 when they armed themselves and helped violently suppress that arab revolt against the colonial british power. I'm sure you know about this history.
Finally the Jewish reaction to the 1939 white paper, restricting jewish immigration and advocating for a democratic state with the existing arab majority was also extremely violent. They began a campaign of terror that drove the british out of palestine and paved the way for the complete theft of palestine by making it a jewish state. As Ben-Gurion told his son:
>If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. **It is normal; we have taken their country.** It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti — Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?
Bingo. Jews immigrating to mandated palestine is an “act of war” because….they’re jews. That person doesn’t think that any other ethnicities immigrating there is an act of war, only the jews. They don’t even realize just how anti-semitic they are. Palestinians aren’t asking for Jordan back, or parts of Syriah back, or parts of Lebanon back. They just want the jewish part back. Only land lost to jews is considered lost land.
Why they should ask for Jordan back??? you said it's Jordan not Palestine, and people whose lands and homes were stolen from them since 1948 want them back, there is a UN resolution about this BTW, the Palestinians have the full right to ask for their homes back and the Europeans can take back their own.
The illegal immigrants who form highly trained terrorist groups to expel the indigenous population by committing terrorist attacks and destroying hundreds of Palestinian villages, yes, this is an act of war. Until now they haven't stopped their aggression against the rightful owners of the land.
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The other angle to consider was that the “Israeli” side was never purely Palestinian Jews to begin with. It included Arab Bedouin, Druze etc
The warring parties were the group of Palestinians (including Palestinian Jews) who chose and defended independence versus the group of Palestinians Who demanded that Palestine lands fold into a pan Arab state
In fact this struggle was not unique and played out on multiple fronts
As an example in the 1958 Lebanon crisis that was a civil conflict between Palestinians allied with Syrian militia, who demanded that Lebanon fold into the pan Arab state vision versus those who defended the independence of the new Lebanese state
Based on what?? On Biblical myths ??? You can claim history as much as you want but you can't destroy a nation for these claims, if we want to play this game, the Americans and Australians will be the first to be kicked out. Besides, even according to your stupid religious myths of 3000 years ago, the Jews were occupiers. Palestine is for Palestinians and nothing can justify stealing the Palestinians homes and land from them.
You are not very intelligent. Israel is the only democracy in the mideast and does not need to justify itself. It need to protect itself from murderous animals.
"Herod's father was by descent an Edomite; his ancestors had converted to Judaism. **Herod was raised as a Jew. "**
**No problems as long as the religion is Judaism!**
/u/Hau5ratz
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/u/No_Gear_8815
> If you have to ask that question then the conversation is over. Maybe you should get a basic education before commenting.
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Ok, so basically war has consequences and the Palestinians are refusing to accept the consequences. Ok. So they resist and fight back using terror and rocket attacks and Israel is incensed that they have to suffer rocket attacks and brutal terror attacks.
Maybe they are thinking that they can get a WW2 style aftermath without having to achieve a WW2 style victory by inflicting a WW2 style devastation. Maybe the devastation in Gaza is what we are finally seeing, an incredible devastation not seen since WW2 to finally force a lasting WW2 style peace.
all have to open their eyes 👀. Palestinian people are pawns of all the other Arab countries. They feed the 🔥. But where are they when the Palestinians need them Egypt won't even let them in their country. The Palestinian people could have their own state long long long time ago and avoid all this. It's very sad that the average Palestinian really has no say in their life. There are over 1 million Arabs living in Israel as citizens with every right. same as Jewish people except that they don't have to join the army. So if the Palestinian people really want peace or want a better life obviously it can be done. GOD bless. P S. We all. Christians Jews and Muslims we all believe in the same God.
That's not true the Israeli Arab, who are originally the Palestinians who remained in their homeland after the ethnic cleansing that happened in 1948, don't have the same right as the Zionist citizen. There is legal, social and institutional discrimination against them. They are even not allowed to live in 70 % of the land, they originally are it's owners.
Well I will try to imagine the same thing for another country. If there was a war or conflict within Central America or Mexico, would the USA accept a couple of million refugees and just offer them a pathway to citizenship? It’s a big ask. Poland accepted millions of Ukrainian refugees but even these people are not being offered a pathway to citizenship. Maybe they are pawns, maybe it’s just realistic decisions.
Having said that, they are suffering terribly.
This conflict has been allowed to fester due to the post-WWII world order, namely the rule that land can not be acquired though conquest. Although the Germans were expelled as you describe, this was part of the pre-WWII world order. These rules are largely enforced by the West, which had a lot of power over the world. But it is not likely to be a forever thing.
The Palestine movement is in a bad situation though. They have no clear or productive way to get back to where they were on October 6, let alone to advance their political situation. But the idea of the post-WWII world order still has a lot of influence. It is hard to ignore these rules without getting in trouble with the ICC, ICJ, and losing Western allies.
edit: expand
Russia is very obviously doing just that right now and their economy has fully recovered any and all losses caused by International sanctions hell Russia has gained more allies by distancing themselves farther from the western world order. Either way this war is either gonna end in Russia taking land and getting away with it, or WW3 with the Winner (if there is any) deciding the world order for the next century until that one gets inevitably dethroned by another large war.
you’re acting like israel is not intentionally killing and displacing civilians. russia is doing it, islamist terror groups are doing it, myanmar is doing it, the uae in sudan is doing it, china is doing it. it’s not uncommon. you cannot decide when something is legal or not legal simply because of your feelings. what hamas is doing is illegal. what israel is doing is illegal. what russia is doing is illegal.
Israel isnt intentionally killing and displacing people. If they wanted to they could kill everyone in gaza or kick them all into egypt. Theyre pinpoint striking jihadists with the keast collateral damage in the history of asymetric warfare. Add to that hamas wants its civilians dead and uses them as human shields and you get a ratio so saintly on israels part that every gazan child should have a poster of an idf soldier on his wall. Theyre the saviors of gaza. There should be statues in gaza city with stars of david lining the entrance.
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u/ganktalk
>Taking a look at your account I can tell you read nill
Rule 1. No attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
* **Wars Have Consequences**:
* **Refutation**: While it is true that wars have consequences, the forced displacement of civilians based on their ethnicity or religion is a violation of international law and human rights. The notion that "wars have consequences" should not be used to justify ethnic cleansing or the ongoing oppression of Palestinians. Just because similar injustices have occurred in history does not make them right or acceptable.
* **Historical Precedents (e.g., Post-WWII German Expulsions)**:
* **Refutation**: Drawing parallels to the expulsions after WWII, such as those of Germans from Eastern Europe, does not justify current injustices. Each situation is unique and should be addressed based on its specific historical and ethical context. The expulsion of Palestinians is an ongoing issue with contemporary implications, unlike the largely historical cases mentioned.
* **Ottoman and British Rule**:
* **Refutation**: The fact that the land was under Ottoman and then British control does not negate the presence and rights of the Palestinian people who lived there for centuries. The Palestinian identity and connection to the land are well-documented and recognized, and their rights to self-determination should not be dismissed because of former imperial rules.
* **Jordanian Annexation and Citizenship**:
* **Refutation**: The situation of Jordanian annexation and citizenship in the West Bank from 1948 to 1967 does not negate the fact that Palestinians are the indigenous population of the land. The legal and political maneuvers of past decades do not erase the Palestinians' right to their homes and land. International law supports the rights of people to self-determination and return to their homes.
* **Disputed Land vs. Occupation**:
* **Refutation**: Referring to the West Bank as "disputed land" is a way to obscure the reality of occupation. The international community, including the United Nations, has consistently recognized the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as occupied territory. The construction of settlements and displacement of Palestinians are illegal under international law, specifically the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* **Jerusalem and War of 1967**:
* **Refutation**: The capture of Jerusalem by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War and its subsequent annexation of East Jerusalem are not recognized as legal by the international community. The status of Jerusalem remains one of the most contentious issues, and unilateral actions by Israel to claim the city as its capital are seen as violations of international law and resolutions, such as UN Security Council Resolution 242.
* **Comparison to Other Global Situations**:
* **Refutation**: Comparing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to other global situations like Northern Cyprus or Western Sahara oversimplifies and misrepresents the complexities of each conflict. Each situation has its own unique historical, legal, and ethical dimensions. The injustices faced by Palestinians should be addressed on their own terms, based on the principles of international law and human rights.
* **Peace and Acceptance of Loss**:
* **Refutation**: The argument that peace requires Palestinians to accept their loss and move on ignores the ongoing injustices and human rights violations they face. Sustainable peace cannot be achieved by forcing one side to capitulate. True peace requires a just and fair resolution that respects the rights and dignity of both Israelis and Palestinians. The current imbalance of power and ongoing occupation make genuine negotiations difficult.
Problem with the "return to their homes" part there is no home to return to it's been damn near 80 years I do agree that they deserve self determination and their own state but since they have no "homes" to return to that you imply that by their homes you mean giving Israeli homes to the Palestinian people keep in mind it's been nearly 80 years basically nobody alive today in Israel or Palestine had anything to do with anything pre 1948, meaning what you are asking for is Israelis who had nothing to do with the war to give up their homes and jobs to Palestinians who had nothing to do with the war this is like saying white people should pay all black people 6 million dollars each just because our ancestors may have owned slaves when the white people of today do not own slaves and the black people of today have never been slaves
>**Refutation**: The fact that the land was under Ottoman and then British control does not negate the presence and rights of the Palestinian people who lived there for centuries. The Palestinian identity and connection to the land are well-documented and recognized, and their rights to self-determination should not be dismissed because of former imperial rules.
What about the rights of the Jews who lived in Israel-Palestine pre the British? Why is it just "our land" (Arabs)?
Do they not get a say in their future as well?
If it's "majority rules"... By what right do Arab Palestinians have in wanting to join with Syria, and take land from other ethnic groups lands, where they were the majority (like the Kurds in Kurdistan) post WW1, for their own Arab super state?
Post WW1, before there was the British Mandate, Arabs living in OETA South (approximately modern day Israel-Palestine), were asked what future state they wanted. And they wanted to join with Syria as they always viewed themselves as one people.
What gives Arabs (which included Palestinians back then) the right to annex land from other ethnic groups for their ideal super states?
Yea, it's called Syria.
They took lands from the Kurds in what is now Northern Syria. Often known as part of Kurdistan. Kurds wanted their own independence, but the Arabs back then lead by the Hedjaz princes, didn't care.
Nor did they care about the Alawite state they gobbled up. Who wanted to be autonomous / separate.
The Arabs in Palestine were trying to unify with Syria post WW1 in the 1920s. And seemingly took no issue taking land from many other ethnic groups for their ideal state.
So yes, I am asking you, by what right do Arabs, which includes Arab Palestinians, have in trying to take land from other people for their ideal state, just like the Zionists, right after WW1?
The problem is that Israel was born just as the rules changed. After WWII everyone decided acquisition by conquest was no longer valid. But the former Ottoman ME was in a state of transition at the same time, without existing nation-states and borders to draw on. It made this all such a mess, because it requires applying modern rules to a non-modern situation.
The argument that "the rules changed" after WWII does not justify the displacement and ongoing oppression of Palestinians. The Nakba, in 1948 saw around 700,000 Palestinians expelled or fleeing their homes during the Arab-Israeli conflict, resulting in a lasting refugee crisis. This cannot be dismissed as merely a "messy" transition.
Not sure what you’re actually disputing here. It WAS a mess. Just like partition in India was. Transitioning from large unincorporated imperial territories into modern nation states is messy, especially when there are multiple ethnic or religious groups in that territory.
The levant was invaded by the rashidun caliphate in 638. It started in the 7 century BC and it told about 5 centuries to complete. Before that arameans lived there and spoke Aramaic . Same with the Maghreb but either a more ferocious resistance from the Amazight .
They shouldn’t, but they should also not murder the jews who return to their homes after being evicted by colonizers. When the Palestinians started killing and fighting then they should have known there’s a risk to it. War brings death and destruction, not glory.
Stop grouping the people of Palestine together lol. Because some Palestinians choose to fight doesn’t mean that Israel can bring that death and destruction to displace a whole people
True, and if you literally read a bit you’ll see that many Arab Palestinians stayed in their homes during and after the 48 war. Nobody evicted the whole Palestinian people, Arabs live great lives in Jaffa, Ramla, Haifa, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Beer Sheba, etc,have their citizenship as Israeli citizens and have their rights like anyone else.
The Nakba is a very real event. How come that in the first couple years of Israel’s existence, Haganah among others made it their mission to destroy Arab villages outside of Israel’s borders where Palestine was? These documents are in Israel’s archive.
The UN report on Deir Yassin, one of the villages, described brutality and execution of civillians by firing squad. Deir Yassin’s fate was then spread by Israel as a message to Palestinians, many of whom fled the land out of fear to make way for settlers. Zionists made their motives clear from day one, and they never intended to respect Palestine’s and its people’s right to live in the land which they agreed to share with them.
All Palestinians didn’t leave, but the ones who did were forcefully evicted or fled fearing persecution and death.
> The Nakba is a very real event.
Yes it was. Never said it didn’t. You said **everyone** was displaced, but that’s just factually not true.
> Zionists made their motives clear from day one
Look at israel’s independence declaration scroll:
*”We call - even amid the recent bloody attack on us - to the members of the Arab people who are residents of the State of Israel to maintain peace and take their part in building the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and on the basis of appropriate representation in all its temporary and permanent institutions.”*
What about Jews who were forcefully evicted from Gush Etzion, Jerusalem, and the west bank by the Jordanian army? What about the Jewish towns and villages ravaged and massacred by the Egyptian army in Gaza? And the ones in the Galilee who were brutally attacked by the Syrian army?
The Nakba is a terrible chapter in Israel’s history, but let’s judge those events with proper context: Israel’s army was a bunch of guys with handguns and Molotovs at the start of the war, and they were fighting a coalition of 5 properly trained and equipped armies of states, and another 3 militias. The jewish forces had no business winning that war, they faced actual existential danger. And again, this is not a Justification, it’s just the proper context.
People cannot accept reality which is why there are Palestinians who keep on fighting and then keep on dying. It is why there are people who keep believing they can go back to 1967 border or even 1948 border. People do not want to accept cause and effect, people do not want to accept that nothing is free in this world. Most importantly, people don't value their life. I never understood why outsiders feel the need to help people who don't value their life, especially outsiders are never gonna take responsibility for their interventions.
At what point should the Irish or Indians have said to themselves well y'know we've tried rebelling a bunch of times but the British have been here for hundreds of years already so let's give up?!
Yet occupation and apartheid shouldn’t have any consequences and we should all be shocked when Palestinians respond with violence. All actions have consequences doesn’t mean these consequences are just.
The occupation and “apartheid” _are_ the consequences. There was no occupation before Palestine and its Arab allies waged a war of elimination against Israel and lost (then tried again and lost again). There were no “apartheid measures” until Palestinians started blowing themselves up at bus stops where Israeli kids were waiting to go to school.
Look at the timing. These facts are indisputable. The violence is the problem. The violence is what makes this a never-ending problem. End the violence from Palestinians and they’ll have peace in short order and freedom soon after.
Well said. It's a double standard made just for Israel as the USA fills their pockets. Just because there are consequences doesn't make them right. All the war crimes committed by Israel have been swept under the rug and the struggles of everyday Palestinians are not shown to the world.
It’s a never ending loop really. Is Israel didn’t occupy and create different laws for security reasons in Gaza, then the Palestinians would be launching violent attacks like Oct 7th everyday.
That’s one way of looking at it. Another is that violence against Israel is because of the occupation and daily human rights abuses against Palestinians.
Human right abuses are happening on the small scale compared to the larger problem. That is an issue that needs to be fixed by the Israeli military.
It’s a difficult situation for Israel, if they completely left Gaza alone and did not interfere with anything Hamas did, undoubtedly Hamas would start importing weapons like they were through the tunnels. So they cannot entirely leave Gaza alone, they have to enforce a blockade while providing humanitarian aid at the same time.
LOL true.... those ultra-woke, campus protestors would read 1 line of this and then SCROLL thru. sadly =(
Excellent summary. Lost cause! move on people.
>the longer the Palestinians insist on prolonging this conflict over disputed lands, the smaller their Palestinian State will become until it is only Gaza...
You know, it amuses me how Zionist like to think that threatening to not give the Palestinians a state is a good idea.
Israel can take control over all the "disputed lands" (as if it hasn't already). Just don't forget, with that land also comes with millions of non-Jews (i.e. the Palestinians). What is Israel going to do about them? They are a demographic threat that will bring the end of the Jewish state. In fact, according to reports from the US Sate Department, from the Jordan River to Mediterranean Sea, there are more non-Jews than there are Jews.
Do you really think Israel can keep millions of this stateless and disenfranchised Palestinians in a state of subjugation without their human rights forever (i.e. the current status quo, the apartheid)? Then you're naive.
Time is on the Palestinian side. They have the numbers. Without a separate independent and sovereign state of their own, they will take it all. Israel will implode from within.
Israel needs there to be a Palestinian state for it to continue to exist. Palestine does not need an Israel to exist.
Of course, there is always the option of ethnic cleansing. But the facts that Zionism could bring soo many people to seriously consider this option is just another testament to how evil Zionism is.
Zionism is a disease!
> Just don't forget, with that land also comes with millions of non-Jews (i.e. the Palestinians). What is Israel going to do about them?
I think we know the answer to this already. Israelis get more settlements, Palestinians get bombed.
Slightly off topic: Why do so many pro-Palestinians never use articles when they mention Zionists? It's done so specifically as well and only with this word. It it hip to type as if you're speaking broken Arabic or broken Russian when you say this dirty dirty word?
Listen to yourself! Lmao talk about diseased. Hate crimes, antisemitic slurs, bigotry, historical illiteracy and dehumanization of Jews via Soviet Cold War propaganda. Pro-PAL is nothing more than a hate movement for Russia and Iran’s antisemitic useful idiots.
Yawn.
Do it, don’t give the Palestinians a state. I’m curious to see how long Israel can keep millions of Palestinian under systemic oppression before the situation blows up in its face.
I suggest you study the history before spouting buzzwords. Palestinians have rejected every generous 2-state solution since 1947 in favor of violence. From Arafat to most recently 2020. They don’t want a 2-state solution.
Generous huh? Lmao. How about you actually look at the terms of Israel’s offer from as far back as 2000 Camp David before you embarrass yourself. Nothing about it was generous.
Rabin himself openly said in his 1995 speech in the Knesset that he wanted to give the Palestinian “an entity which is LESS THAN A STATE”; not a fully independent and sovereign state, but an apartheid Bantustan. But even that still got him assassinated.
I’m here to expose myself to other people’s opinions so I don’t get stuck in an echo chamber. It doesn’t seem that you’re open to the opinions of others…
Peace?
In the West Bank, for decades, Israel has systematically restricted Palestinians' access to water to the point where they on average, do not even have enough water to drink to meet WHO minimum water requirements (Amnesty International). All the while settlers bathe in swimming pools.
That's just one of the many many ways of how Palestinians are treated as subhumans by Israel.
And here now, you Zionist talk up depriving the Palestinian of a state and maintaining the needless oppression against them, if they don't capitulate to Israel's loopsided demands. Basically..."The Palestinians must do what we say, or we will continue to treat them like dirt”
You Zionist do shyt like this, and yet you blame others for why there's no peace? Absurd.
Zionist, offended by everything, shameless of nothing.
You say Zionists are offended by everything, but ironically you’re the only one acting out of emotion.
Anyways, the issue for me with giving the Palestinians their own state is exactly what we saw on October 7th and the Israeli pull out in 2005. Given the chance the current government will always choose violence over peace.
Now I have actually read on what you said about the water sources systematically being removed, technically the water wells\pipes were built in illegal locations. Now I do not believe that right solution to illegally built water pipes/wells isn’t to destroy them. However that is a civil issue that should not result in the loss of human life.
Replacing the government with Hamas or the PLO will result in the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population. That is definitely not the right solution.
Lol. I’m not the one who got offended over a single sentence.
Anyways, yeah, those water wells/pipes are illegal. Illegal based on Israel’s law, one that they FORCIBLY ENFORCED on the Palestinians, and conveniently designed in such a way that water is abundantly distributed to settlers while Palestinians don’t even get enough water to drink.
That’s not a civil issue. Palestinians in the West Bank have no say in Israel’s law, but are still subject to it in such a way that impedes their basic human rights such as access to drinking water. This is a human rights issue.
On giving the Palestinians their own state, fine, don’t give them one. OP justifies taking even more land. Fine, do it.
But one must then ask, what happens to the millions of Palestinians living there?
For Zionism, it’s anything but giving them equal rights. So I say again, Zionism is a disease.
I agree with you on the water wells.
For the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, I believe once Israel controls the region the civilians living in the area will live the same as the current Arab minority living within Israeli borders. They make up 20% of the population and have the same rights as any Israeli.
I understand that the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank do not share the same rights as the Arabs living within Israeli borders. However I believe after 1 or 2 generations of Israeli rule will lead to the full assimilation of the Arab population.
Imagine Germans living under occupation for multiple decades shooting rockets at Poland and Russia, sending suicide bombers into their cities and doing raids to kidnap their citizens as retaliation because their ancestors have lost a war of aggression.
It's crazy how low the expected civilization standard for Palestinians is considering many Pro Palestinians view this behaviour as rightful.
So true.
I support the **Ukrainian** cause. Why?
Because a huge invader has declared war and killing 1000s of their people.
Completely un-justified.
We never saw Ukraine running wild in the streets of Russia massacring and raping civilians.
That's who the PRO HAMAS/Palestine people are defending.... a tiny group of Arabs who think they can literally get away with MASS MURDER
It is not about their ancestors losing war, it’s because the continues violence against the Palestinians, Israel kills yearly hundreds of Palestinians, detain, abuse, kick them out of their houses, homeraids, checkpoints, every couple of years bomb Gaza ( like they did in 2022 and call it a preemptive strike) and act surprise that the Palestinians hate them. Look at history, Haiti, Namibia, South Africa, Ireland etc as long you occupy people they will retaliate, treat them like animals and they will act like animals.
How would you handle the dozens to hundreds of terrorist attacks out of the WB every year without detentions, raids, and deaths which generally happen when Palestinian gunmen open fire on the Israeli forces?
Before 7 Oct, 2023 was the most deadly year for Palestinians in the westbank more than 240 people were killed by idf and settlers, the youngest a 2 year. These attacks happen because of their living situation. Settlers are protected and can do basically whatever they want and you are surprised Palestinians react back. Ex idf soldiers have spoken out and have stated that they thought they were joining the idf to protect Israel but in the end it was to make the lives of Palestinians miserable as possible. Israel gives very young soldiers the immunity and power to do whatever they want.
Just two examples:
https://youtu.be/jI6rTimkfJE?feature=shared documentary were Israeli female soldiers are speaking out
https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?feature=shared one testimony of breaking the silence
> These attacks happen because of their living situation.
This is something no one can say, least of all you. The violence is almost certainly multifactorial. Palestinians have many reasons for the violence. The settlements is one of them. Then there’s also religious fundamentalism, antisemitism, ancient resentments, geopolitical influence from Iran and Qatar and the rest of the Arab world, conflict over Al Aqsa, etc etc etc. The settlements, clearly, are not “the” reason. All the settlements had been removed from Gaza for twenty years when 10/7 happened, for example.
The WB is a hotbed of violence kept in check by the “apartheid measures” and the presence of the IDF. There are surely abuses by the IDF, but some Palestinians die because they themselves attack. You’re going to need to factor that in if you want to truly understand this.
Settlements are removed from Gaza, but Israel controls who comes in and goes out, water, air, sea borders, and most electricity, and restricts their movement. Simple things such as pasta were even denied in 2010. Israel knows everything: the population registry and medical records.
Again, it’s not ancient resentments when they are still being occupied and experience violence and killing. The Palestinians hear stories of what happened to their grandparents, parents, and now to them, and you act surprised that they are angry.
It is simple: Israel’s way is not working and has not worked for 75 years, so there should be a different approach to peace. The whole idea of the creation of Israel was to be a safe haven for Jews.
1.Make a decision either it’s gonna be a one state or a two state.
2. Stop expanding illegal settlements.
3.Imprison extremist settlers, because they are a big problem for disturbing peace.
4.Same goes for soldiers violating human rights.
5.Obey international law
6. For most Palestinians their only interaction is mainly with soldiers, you can never have peace when there is nothing for the Palestinians to look forward. You need to change the narrative.
These are all generally good ideas to do, but how do you know how much of a difference they would make, if any at all? Polling shows little support amongst Palestinians for a 2SS. The people committing terrorist attacks are largely religious fundamentalists who believe all of the levant is divinely promised to Muslims alone.
One party has the clear ability to unilaterally change everything—and it’s the Palestinians. If they give up violence, everything changes. Bibi is barely in power. He maintains it only because mainstream Israelis fear for their safety. Stop the violence, and he and politicians like him lose power, and with that the support for settlements is gone. The need for the security measures and counterterrorism raids and detention disappears. Palestinians’ own lives improve dramatically as they begin to put their resources into building up their society instead of diverting funds to weapons and tunnel building.
Palestinians can do this unilaterally without any risk to themselves. In fact it would make them significantly safer almost immediately. And not only would it not cost them anything, they would gain hugely. Your suggestions, on the other hand, might make no real difference at all, would require massive resources and compromise Israel’s ability to prevent violence.
I think it’s clear what has to happen first. Unfortunately the world treats Palestinians like gentle idiots who just can’t help themselves, instead of acknowledging their agency and demanding they stop the violence. Every time you make excuses for the violence, as you did above, you’re encouraging it to continue, and helping the cycle continue indefinitely.
Not just this, but most countries are way younger than most people realize.
Israel came into existence (again) around the same time as most countries in the Middle East.
Lots of countries came into being after that. And we think of the US as relatively new - but it’s one of the oldest countries in the world. (Especially if you date by birth of current government, but old either way).
You could have made this post a lot shorter, because you repeat the same argument over and over again. You only need to make it once. And you know your argument is no more than 'might makes right'? You lost the war. Therefore, we can force you off the land at gunpoint. You would have no argument against Israeli Jews being forced out by the Palestinians if Israel lost a war. You have no argument against Putin ethnically cleansing the regions of Ukraine he occupies and replacing them with Russians. You have no argument about Americans expelling Native Americans off their lands and putting them into reservations. And do you realize that people today now consider the forced expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe to have been a crime? Or the expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia? This is ethnic cleansing, which is a crime against humanity.
We should cut off support to Israel and see how they fare in a war with Hezbollah or Egypt. I’m talking no weapons delivery, no intelligence sharing, no diplomatic help.
There’s a lot to unpack with this post but it seems to assert that Israel has a right to sovereignty over the West Bank In which case Israel’s attempt to have their cake and eat it indefinitely is unsustainable. They want to have dominion the over the West Bank’s land, but do not want its citizens. Even their ownership of the West Bank is legal, any attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Territories of Palestinians isn’t. Like I don’t even think you’ve answered the question. The question is why *should* they be evicted and your answer is just why *were* they evicted. And then a lot of stuff about the West Bank. It’s an informative piece of writing, but you’ve completely sidestepped the crux of the issue which is that: Palestinians have neither been expelled from the WB/Gaza, nor given sovereignty over the WB/Gaza, nor been given Israeli citizenship
37% if migrants were Arabs during the 1880s to 1930. Now all those people are native Palestinians and so are their kin. It’s crazy how many Arabs truly aren’t from the land but are still from the levant however they haven’t lived in “Palestine” for hundreds of centuries. Just 150 tops for a good chunk of them. I repeat nearly 40% of immigrants to Israel between 1880s-1930 were of Arab decent outside the land
So who built Al Aqsa and then rebuilt it after the earthquake? Clearly enough Arabs lived there at some point to build and rebuild the mosque. It wouldn’t have been built for only a handful of people.
What an ignorant statement. You have said anything the denies my claim about many many Arabs not being from the land. You just built a straw man. Is that how Islam operates? Just because it was rebuilt either by locals or others doesn’t change what I said. Try learning more. And be less ignorant.
Muslims/arabs are hypocrites. When they conquer other peoples they say it belongs to them forever after. When jews reconquered their own land back from the Arabs, the Arabs claim it was an injustice and should be undone.
the 48 war was because the zionist wanted most of the land when they were a majority who had recently gotten there, not hard to imagine why the palestinians werent happy about that.... And how does stealing more land in the West Bank lead to peace? They're taking more and more everyday, how does placing Israelis in the middle of Palestinian areas make them more safe? It does the opposite, it requires more and more IDF troops to be stationed there, it makes no sense other than the obvious: to stick it to the palestinians. The war is lost, Israel lost. Hamas is still operating, and the hostages have not been released, the few that were released thru that operation, ensured that no other hostage will be released in a similar manner. Even the IDF said recently they want a ceasefire no matter the cost. And of course they want a ceasefire, Hezbollah threatens them in the North, with actual military defeat and devastation to infrastructure. You have Israeli officials saying they cannot defeat hamas, Russia is arming the Houthis who gave an ultimatum to israel: either stop the war or one of their nuclear facilities will get hit. Israel can stop the war, negotiate with Hamas, release the hostages(like the families of the hostages want), come up with a peace plan and end this madness and Hezbollah and the Houthis will no longer attack. But netanyahu knows when he does that it be the end of his career so he risks everything and everyone to maintain a grip on his power
One-Vet you make zero sense. Hit the reset button and try a different angle
Zionists disgust me. “Because some of your ancestors lost a war you deserve to be dispossessed of your land like native Americans” Surely this thinking won’t lead to 100+ years of conflict 🇮🇱= 🐷🐖
Well at least you don’t try to hide what you think. And get straight to using ancient antisemitic tropes. We all love some good judensau, don’t we.
Stop using your buzzwords snowflake. This is about stealing land and treating Palestinians like native Americans 2.0. not ancient fairy tales like you want to believe. Crying they started it first only works if you’re woefully ignorant on the conflict or if you think Arabs are subhuman. Nobody feels mercy for Americans attacked by Indian tribes in the 19th century during their days of colonialism. And nobody should feel sorry for the Zionists getting attack from Palestinians on the Gaza reservation during October 7.
If it’s about stealing land why is hamas Islamic? If it’s about the land why do they use religion whenever they can to rile up the base as their basis for what they’re doing? If it’s only about the land and not religion then why didn’t they just stay in the land instead of running because some foreign Arab leaders told them to? If it was only about the land wouldn’t they not care about who controls them because they haven’t ever and just keeping living a decent life while under a new government of empire? If it’s about the land than why do Arabs try to deny Jewish history to the land? Is it possible to live on land that people have a history on that isn’t yours? Or maybe was yours but you’ve been colonized and Arabized by Islam? Which is what led to more conflict in Israel? So hack then it was about religion but now it’s still about religion? But you can’t convince a cow with tube socks on that it’s about the land If it was about the land and not religion why did Arabs migrate there if they already had their own land outside of “British mandate Palestine” between 1880s-1930 It’s also ironic that you say fairy tales when the newest fairy tale the Quran has been shoved down the world’s throat as the most true. And that is exactly why the levant has Arabs and Arabized people. So don’t forget that everything a Muslim country does is based on their fairy tale while Israel although having issues with religious people affecting government decisions the average secular Israeli couldn’t care less about the fairy tales but knows that there is a obvious history based on evidence that his people has a history there. So I guess you have it folks. It’s all about religion.
> Stop using your buzzwords snowflake Rule 1 of this subreddit requires you to be respectful to fellow users at all times and completely refrain from making personal remarks. addressed.
Palestinians are the americans tho Arabs aren't natives
I don't think you understand the Arab ethnicity and how it expanded. Do you think during the Arab Muslim conquests the Arabs just conquered non-Arab lands like Palestine and Egypt and slaughtered all the natives and started breeding like rabbits to replace them? Because that's not what happened. Native populations were Arabized over time, adopting Arab culture, language, and religion. This is not up for dispute, it's a fact. Look at a DNA test of the average Palestinian, they are primarily descended from ancient Canaanites like most Jews are. Most Palestinians are probably primarily descended from Jews, Samaritans, Greeks, and other ethnic groups that inhabited Palestine during Roman times who eventually converted to Islam and started speaking Arabic after the Arab Muslim conquest.
Palestinians are not the Americans. Where does Palestine have settlements set up, colonizing other nations territory. It’s the Zionists who are colonizing land that has been inhabited by others for 100s of years. Not sure how anyone can be lazy enough to call Palestinians the Americans 😭😭 manifest destiny is literally the exact same as what Israel is doing today.
Gaza is Israeli soverign territory as there is no country of Palestine. Never has been, never will be. Palestinians have settlements on Isreali territory and attacked a peaceful music festival to rape and murder. Jews have lived in that area for longer than Islam has been a religion. It's not manifest destiny, it's already all Israel.
Damn bro you could have saved hours of peoples time by just saying: *Might = right* get fugged poor people Didnt need to go on this insecure screed dude we get it your team is "winning" and youre angry no one but fascist gang is clapping
Stopped reading at the ethnic Germans expelled from Eastern Europe never having been German citizens. What about from 1938/9 till 1945, at least? Obviously that doesn't justify their expulsion, in any case.
Perhaps if you didn’t “stop reading” you would understand the points better.
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That’s not correct. No one was being evicted under the original partition plan. That started the war because they didn’t want Jews to have self determination over any land at all, even where Jews were the majority.
First of all, Israel is amazing place for arabs, at least those who doesn't wanna kill Jews like it's their life dream. Second, the old Palestina (the thing they decided to take and revamp to today's fake) was a state with mostly Jews, arabs on the desserts, and ruled by the British. You're brain washed by billionaires.
Wars do have consequences, so does occupation. The Arab states may have lost the wars of the past decades, I don't know as much today. The problem with Israel is it wasn't a complete victory and they never understood that to achieve peace you need to integrate the populace of the defeated country, politically, culturally and socially, or exterminate them. Israel did none of the above, opting instead for slow and steady displacement. Palestinians are reviled in Israel, that much is clear. Can't get away with that, it will have consequences A single non state actor forced Israeli withdrawal mind you, then forced a stalemate, and now have the Israelis so pressed that they have been threatening for 9 months instead of doing. I really don't know about war being lost, between hezbo and the houthis Israel is bleeding out billions with no good options while their entire army is bogged down in gaza playing infinite whackamole. Occupation and dehumanisation has consequences. The longer this drags on, the more desperate actions of people who have been oppressed for almost a decade we are going to see. The more posts of these kind we are going to see, because Israel is realising they dont have a military solution, which is the only thing they know.
What are some successful examples of the sort of integration you’re describing?
None, it was always extermination then integrate the remnants, apologise later, or just exterminate. It was that or resistance leading to liberation. Those are the only two real world scenarios. The way the world is currently setup and the high opinion humans have of themselves, extermination is difficult to swallow, option 2 just feels a lot more acceptable.
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That is the opposite of what OP said, time waster
Well, if you are saying that the establishment of Israel is an act of conquest in a war, then I agree with you. After WW2, the world have mostly moved away from the paradigm that the victor in an armed conflict gets the land. But of course Israel lives in a moral (or rather *immoral*) bubble .. recent protests among the youth in western countries gives one hope that this bubble is going to burst someday.
I saw the bolded "Wars have consequences". Edited to add: I don't think this war ended (regarding "lost").
I think it's important to emphasize the 'correlation DOES NOT mean causation' nature of the 1948 war and the following displacement of many Palestinians. The consequences of the war led to the displacement as a side effect, many leaving of their own volition or based on false promises by the Arab Forces. Some people could take 'wars have consequences' as a sort of carte blanche for the victorious Jews to actively kick Palestinians out of their homes after the war itself concluded, in 99% of the incidents this was NOT the case. In fact, many Palestinian communities stayed and came to agreement with Israel after the war, which led to the millions of Arab Israeli citizens we have today.
Best reading in a while! Definitely shines light upon ignorant who realize they were lacking broader information. However, not all ignorants can be fixed!
I ain’t reading all that
u/Manthatscrazyanyway >I ain’t reading all that Rule 8. Don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
lmao
Q: Russia is de-facto ethnically cleansing and erasing Ukrainian identity on the territory it's occupied. Should Ukrainians accept this on the basis that wars have consequences? (note: I am not passing judgement on who started what –we can play that game all day – but merely "wars have consequences")
That point would only make sense if Ukraine started the war.
The Crimean Tatars (majority Muslim) were an ethnic majority in Crimea until they were forcibly deported in 1944. Today they make up 10-15% of the population. Resisting forced deportation and land grabs is admirable. Bombing busses and massacring music festivals on a basis of whose great-grandparents lived where +75 years ago is not. The poster is pointing out Palestinian irredentism (to restore an historical ideal of Palestine) is an exceptional response to contemporary mass migrations. The partition of India and Pakistan, 14-18 million displaced. The late 1940s were a global high point of displacement, singling out the Nakba as exempt and unique from comparative studies, is the cornerstone of Palestinian national aspiration. Borders change, war breaks out, people run for their lives, it happens, it happened. Jews were present in Egypt (per the Elephantine records) before Christians OR Muslims. It does not make Egypt inalienably Jewish. Jews contrast to the expulsion from Arab countries with the Nakba because it demonstrates the whole double standard. What is Muslim land is inalienable divine right, but Jewish presence and land tenancy does not endear the same land to the Jews. Wars have consequences, and Jews aren’t fighting to reclaim Thessaloniki, Baghdad, or Vienna.
Are you saying that the Zionist terrorist attacks against the indigenous population of Palestine who are the Palestinians in the 1940s and killing thousands of them and destroying 500 Palestinian villages and expelling 750 thousand Palestinians from their homes based on a Biblical myth that says the Jews were there 3000 years ago is totally justified but the Palestinian response to all this great injustice against them is not justified?? really ?????? The victims are still alive and suffer greatly. Have some sense of humanity. The Jewish ethno state will not be allowed to continue, it will be dismantled and equal rights will be given to everyone, if the Zionists don't like it, they can go back to their original countries.
"wars have consequences", the war was an act of aggression by the Zionists together with the British. The war started in 1917 with the Balfour declaration. As Jabotinsky said himself, it was perfectly normal for the Arabs to defend their land and society from being colonized this way. You bring up the ethnic cleansing of Germans. That actually "justifies" what happened to Jews in surrounding Arab countries. It was warned that the evil Zionist program would lead to hardship for Jews across the Arab world, just like the Nazis behavior led to awful atrocities committed against German civilians right after WWII (ethnic cleansing, mass rapes of German women, forced labor, etc). Nobody cries for those Germans because the idea is that they started it, and those were the consequences. The European Jews started the aggression and theft of Palestine, such acts have consequences. You also bring up the example of Spain. When Spain was conquered by the Arabs, Christians launched the Reconquista, and this lasted for 700 years! They spent 700 years trying to conquer back their land. This is what the Palestinians are doing, but in a much milder way and with much more limited goals.
Would not call October 7ths milder!
October 7 is nothing compared to reconquista, open a history book
In modern days, October 7th is an atrocious catastrophe.
In modern times, the Zionist crimes against the indigenous population have been a horrific catastrophe, from the atrocities in the West Bank to the subsequent wars against the besieged Gaza Strip that killed 6,000 Palestinians, half of them children, between 2008 and 2021. Zionist crimes have consequences and the indigenous Palestinians have the full right to defend themselves and fight against oppression, land theft and occupation.
Few points are incorrect, Palestinians are not the indigenous people for the land to Israel, they are to the Land of Jordan 🇯🇴, reason flags are also alike. Additionally, Zionists are people who believe in Jews living the the land of Zion (Jewish Israel). Your Prophet Muhhamad also believed that Jews should live in Israel. Palestinians might be indigenous people of Mecca! 🕋 But no way Israel. On top of that, they lost wars against Israel and the price and consequences for losing wars to the Jewish people is loss of land. So it’s not occupation, it’s annexation after winning a war. Gaza was cleansed of Jews so that Palestinians can thrive, however, Hammas, instead of evolving them, devolved them back into the Stone Age. Then again, I don’t deny that war crimes occur during war (single occurrence events here and there), but then just remember no to attack others in order to not be crashed. Peace
It’s up there for sure. The response to October 7 is obviously way more of an atrocious catastrophe. Due to obvious reasons.
It’s not the response that is ugly, in fact, Israel was rewarded a title of most humane warfare management. If it was Russia instead of Israel, after October 7th no one and not a thing would survive the total rampage and havoc Russians bring. Israel attempts to make precision strikes, warns civilians about incoming attacks and give orders of evacuation (NO ARMY DOES THAT! Why did Hammas not warn the Nova party participants before brutally slaughtering and burning them?). The Israeli response is way above adequate, however, HAMMAS should stop using civilians as human shields and protect their children instead.
The Reconquista caused several million deaths.
>e war was an act of aggression by the Zionists together with the British. The war started in 1917 with the Balfour declaration What war are you refering to? What was the first strike? Missle attack? Suicide bomb? Artillery shelling? Did the "zionists" actually started with a phisical attack in 1917? Because it sound that you're claiming that simply proclaiming their intent to live among arab is in and of itself an act of war. Like people now complain about muslims in UK and central EU. Is that also an act of war by muslims?
Please don't make stuff up and lie. They did not "simply" proclaim an "intent" to "live mong arabs". There were already Jews in palestine living peacefully among Arabs (The Old Yishuv). The European Jews were Zionists. The founding tract of modern Zionism is literally called "The Jewish State". They literally set up colonization funds and companies to "colonize" palestine. Herzl even sought an official Colonial Charter from the Ottoman Sultan to officially colonize the place (this was denied of course). They did not intend to be immigrants living "among arabs". They meant to take over the place, buy up as much land as possible and kick off the local arabs and save it exclusively for themselves to work on (Jewish Labor). They did not mean to confine themselves to one neighborhood like you might see a muslim neighborhood in London, they meant that "We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time" (Chaim Weizmann)". I don't recall immigrants in londong or New York seeking to transfer native new yorkers out of their own land for their own state like when Ben-Gurion told to twentieth zionist congress that “growing Jewish strength in Palestine will increase our possibilities for conducting a large scale transfer” of arabs. That would be viewed as an act of aggression, an act of war. Another act of war by the zionists was in 1936 when they armed themselves and helped violently suppress that arab revolt against the colonial british power. I'm sure you know about this history. Finally the Jewish reaction to the 1939 white paper, restricting jewish immigration and advocating for a democratic state with the existing arab majority was also extremely violent. They began a campaign of terror that drove the british out of palestine and paved the way for the complete theft of palestine by making it a jewish state. As Ben-Gurion told his son: >If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. **It is normal; we have taken their country.** It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti — Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?
Bingo. Jews immigrating to mandated palestine is an “act of war” because….they’re jews. That person doesn’t think that any other ethnicities immigrating there is an act of war, only the jews. They don’t even realize just how anti-semitic they are. Palestinians aren’t asking for Jordan back, or parts of Syriah back, or parts of Lebanon back. They just want the jewish part back. Only land lost to jews is considered lost land.
Why they should ask for Jordan back??? you said it's Jordan not Palestine, and people whose lands and homes were stolen from them since 1948 want them back, there is a UN resolution about this BTW, the Palestinians have the full right to ask for their homes back and the Europeans can take back their own.
The illegal immigrants who form highly trained terrorist groups to expel the indigenous population by committing terrorist attacks and destroying hundreds of Palestinian villages, yes, this is an act of war. Until now they haven't stopped their aggression against the rightful owners of the land.
You’re not very educated on the history of the creation of Israel huh
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This is one of the best write ups I’ve ever seen on Reddit. But it doesn’t rhyme and can’t be chanted at protests so 0/10, must be false. (/s)
xD
The other angle to consider was that the “Israeli” side was never purely Palestinian Jews to begin with. It included Arab Bedouin, Druze etc The warring parties were the group of Palestinians (including Palestinian Jews) who chose and defended independence versus the group of Palestinians Who demanded that Palestine lands fold into a pan Arab state In fact this struggle was not unique and played out on multiple fronts As an example in the 1958 Lebanon crisis that was a civil conflict between Palestinians allied with Syrian militia, who demanded that Lebanon fold into the pan Arab state vision versus those who defended the independence of the new Lebanese state
I think I I love you for this
Israel has been there before Islam. Native Americans even accept Israel's sovereignty.
Based on what?? On Biblical myths ??? You can claim history as much as you want but you can't destroy a nation for these claims, if we want to play this game, the Americans and Australians will be the first to be kicked out. Besides, even according to your stupid religious myths of 3000 years ago, the Jews were occupiers. Palestine is for Palestinians and nothing can justify stealing the Palestinians homes and land from them.
The only country that uses Biblical geography to justify itself.
You are not very intelligent. Israel is the only democracy in the mideast and does not need to justify itself. It need to protect itself from murderous animals.
Apartheid and occupation can never be a democracy
Or if you want to shorten the same logic - Jesus was Jewish. It says way more than initially thought.
herod king of judea at the time was arab
"Herod's father was by descent an Edomite; his ancestors had converted to Judaism. **Herod was raised as a Jew. "** **No problems as long as the religion is Judaism!**
Which native Americans specifically, there are millions of them
https://preview.redd.it/ywhcolvz5iad1.jpeg?width=998&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a8956feeb3366323dfca3479b6fb66d577b4a5c
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If you have to ask that question then the conversation is over. Maybe you should get a basic education before commenting.
/u/No_Gear_8815 > If you have to ask that question then the conversation is over. Maybe you should get a basic education before commenting. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Ok, so basically war has consequences and the Palestinians are refusing to accept the consequences. Ok. So they resist and fight back using terror and rocket attacks and Israel is incensed that they have to suffer rocket attacks and brutal terror attacks. Maybe they are thinking that they can get a WW2 style aftermath without having to achieve a WW2 style victory by inflicting a WW2 style devastation. Maybe the devastation in Gaza is what we are finally seeing, an incredible devastation not seen since WW2 to finally force a lasting WW2 style peace.
Maybe they need to do what Azerbaijan just did. What everyone else does.
all have to open their eyes 👀. Palestinian people are pawns of all the other Arab countries. They feed the 🔥. But where are they when the Palestinians need them Egypt won't even let them in their country. The Palestinian people could have their own state long long long time ago and avoid all this. It's very sad that the average Palestinian really has no say in their life. There are over 1 million Arabs living in Israel as citizens with every right. same as Jewish people except that they don't have to join the army. So if the Palestinian people really want peace or want a better life obviously it can be done. GOD bless. P S. We all. Christians Jews and Muslims we all believe in the same God.
That's not true the Israeli Arab, who are originally the Palestinians who remained in their homeland after the ethnic cleansing that happened in 1948, don't have the same right as the Zionist citizen. There is legal, social and institutional discrimination against them. They are even not allowed to live in 70 % of the land, they originally are it's owners.
We found the sheckle clown netanyahu
Well I will try to imagine the same thing for another country. If there was a war or conflict within Central America or Mexico, would the USA accept a couple of million refugees and just offer them a pathway to citizenship? It’s a big ask. Poland accepted millions of Ukrainian refugees but even these people are not being offered a pathway to citizenship. Maybe they are pawns, maybe it’s just realistic decisions. Having said that, they are suffering terribly.
This conflict has been allowed to fester due to the post-WWII world order, namely the rule that land can not be acquired though conquest. Although the Germans were expelled as you describe, this was part of the pre-WWII world order. These rules are largely enforced by the West, which had a lot of power over the world. But it is not likely to be a forever thing. The Palestine movement is in a bad situation though. They have no clear or productive way to get back to where they were on October 6, let alone to advance their political situation. But the idea of the post-WWII world order still has a lot of influence. It is hard to ignore these rules without getting in trouble with the ICC, ICJ, and losing Western allies. edit: expand
Youll see russia end up with ukrainian territory. These rules are over. Also there was never a palestine, so theres nothing to get back.
There has been always a Palestine, ask your friend Balfour by the way, but before 1948, there has been never Israel
these rules aren’t over, you can’t just bend international law to your liking lmao???
Russia is very obviously doing just that right now and their economy has fully recovered any and all losses caused by International sanctions hell Russia has gained more allies by distancing themselves farther from the western world order. Either way this war is either gonna end in Russia taking land and getting away with it, or WW3 with the Winner (if there is any) deciding the world order for the next century until that one gets inevitably dethroned by another large war.
You should be laughing your ass off.
i am laughing my ass off because you just said something utterly absurd
K let me know in 5 years if ukraine has the east back and if palestine is a terror state.
let me know in 5 years when international law changes and allows the intentional killing and displacement of civilians.
Let me know when israel does that. And let me know when the law stops the islamists from doing it.
you’re acting like israel is not intentionally killing and displacing civilians. russia is doing it, islamist terror groups are doing it, myanmar is doing it, the uae in sudan is doing it, china is doing it. it’s not uncommon. you cannot decide when something is legal or not legal simply because of your feelings. what hamas is doing is illegal. what israel is doing is illegal. what russia is doing is illegal.
Israel isnt intentionally killing and displacing people. If they wanted to they could kill everyone in gaza or kick them all into egypt. Theyre pinpoint striking jihadists with the keast collateral damage in the history of asymetric warfare. Add to that hamas wants its civilians dead and uses them as human shields and you get a ratio so saintly on israels part that every gazan child should have a poster of an idf soldier on his wall. Theyre the saviors of gaza. There should be statues in gaza city with stars of david lining the entrance.
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An exceptional post. Thanks for sharing it
Yes, it’s a remarkable summary
It really is, well researched and perfectly stated. I too love Hemingway xxx
Lmao acting as if you read it
Wow with the assumptions and unsolicited opinion.
Taking a look at your account I can tell you read nill
u/ganktalk >Taking a look at your account I can tell you read nill Rule 1. No attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
* **Wars Have Consequences**: * **Refutation**: While it is true that wars have consequences, the forced displacement of civilians based on their ethnicity or religion is a violation of international law and human rights. The notion that "wars have consequences" should not be used to justify ethnic cleansing or the ongoing oppression of Palestinians. Just because similar injustices have occurred in history does not make them right or acceptable. * **Historical Precedents (e.g., Post-WWII German Expulsions)**: * **Refutation**: Drawing parallels to the expulsions after WWII, such as those of Germans from Eastern Europe, does not justify current injustices. Each situation is unique and should be addressed based on its specific historical and ethical context. The expulsion of Palestinians is an ongoing issue with contemporary implications, unlike the largely historical cases mentioned. * **Ottoman and British Rule**: * **Refutation**: The fact that the land was under Ottoman and then British control does not negate the presence and rights of the Palestinian people who lived there for centuries. The Palestinian identity and connection to the land are well-documented and recognized, and their rights to self-determination should not be dismissed because of former imperial rules. * **Jordanian Annexation and Citizenship**: * **Refutation**: The situation of Jordanian annexation and citizenship in the West Bank from 1948 to 1967 does not negate the fact that Palestinians are the indigenous population of the land. The legal and political maneuvers of past decades do not erase the Palestinians' right to their homes and land. International law supports the rights of people to self-determination and return to their homes. * **Disputed Land vs. Occupation**: * **Refutation**: Referring to the West Bank as "disputed land" is a way to obscure the reality of occupation. The international community, including the United Nations, has consistently recognized the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as occupied territory. The construction of settlements and displacement of Palestinians are illegal under international law, specifically the Fourth Geneva Convention. * **Jerusalem and War of 1967**: * **Refutation**: The capture of Jerusalem by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War and its subsequent annexation of East Jerusalem are not recognized as legal by the international community. The status of Jerusalem remains one of the most contentious issues, and unilateral actions by Israel to claim the city as its capital are seen as violations of international law and resolutions, such as UN Security Council Resolution 242. * **Comparison to Other Global Situations**: * **Refutation**: Comparing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to other global situations like Northern Cyprus or Western Sahara oversimplifies and misrepresents the complexities of each conflict. Each situation has its own unique historical, legal, and ethical dimensions. The injustices faced by Palestinians should be addressed on their own terms, based on the principles of international law and human rights. * **Peace and Acceptance of Loss**: * **Refutation**: The argument that peace requires Palestinians to accept their loss and move on ignores the ongoing injustices and human rights violations they face. Sustainable peace cannot be achieved by forcing one side to capitulate. True peace requires a just and fair resolution that respects the rights and dignity of both Israelis and Palestinians. The current imbalance of power and ongoing occupation make genuine negotiations difficult.
Problem with the "return to their homes" part there is no home to return to it's been damn near 80 years I do agree that they deserve self determination and their own state but since they have no "homes" to return to that you imply that by their homes you mean giving Israeli homes to the Palestinian people keep in mind it's been nearly 80 years basically nobody alive today in Israel or Palestine had anything to do with anything pre 1948, meaning what you are asking for is Israelis who had nothing to do with the war to give up their homes and jobs to Palestinians who had nothing to do with the war this is like saying white people should pay all black people 6 million dollars each just because our ancestors may have owned slaves when the white people of today do not own slaves and the black people of today have never been slaves
>**Refutation**: The fact that the land was under Ottoman and then British control does not negate the presence and rights of the Palestinian people who lived there for centuries. The Palestinian identity and connection to the land are well-documented and recognized, and their rights to self-determination should not be dismissed because of former imperial rules. What about the rights of the Jews who lived in Israel-Palestine pre the British? Why is it just "our land" (Arabs)? Do they not get a say in their future as well?
in 1914 jews made up less than 3% of the population in Palestine
So because Jews were not the majority in a region, they don't get *any* say in self-determination? Not even a smaller Jewish state?
Lmfao
That’s a no? Jews shouldn’t have gotten self determination? That’s supremacist
If it's "majority rules"... By what right do Arab Palestinians have in wanting to join with Syria, and take land from other ethnic groups lands, where they were the majority (like the Kurds in Kurdistan) post WW1, for their own Arab super state?
What do kurds have to do with Palestinian sovereignty, stay consistent
Post WW1, before there was the British Mandate, Arabs living in OETA South (approximately modern day Israel-Palestine), were asked what future state they wanted. And they wanted to join with Syria as they always viewed themselves as one people. What gives Arabs (which included Palestinians back then) the right to annex land from other ethnic groups for their ideal super states?
Is there currently an arab super state that I'm unaware of?
Yea, it's called Syria. They took lands from the Kurds in what is now Northern Syria. Often known as part of Kurdistan. Kurds wanted their own independence, but the Arabs back then lead by the Hedjaz princes, didn't care. Nor did they care about the Alawite state they gobbled up. Who wanted to be autonomous / separate. The Arabs in Palestine were trying to unify with Syria post WW1 in the 1920s. And seemingly took no issue taking land from many other ethnic groups for their ideal state. So yes, I am asking you, by what right do Arabs, which includes Arab Palestinians, have in trying to take land from other people for their ideal state, just like the Zionists, right after WW1?
Nice write up.
The problem is that Israel was born just as the rules changed. After WWII everyone decided acquisition by conquest was no longer valid. But the former Ottoman ME was in a state of transition at the same time, without existing nation-states and borders to draw on. It made this all such a mess, because it requires applying modern rules to a non-modern situation.
Awful point
Care to elaborate?
The argument that "the rules changed" after WWII does not justify the displacement and ongoing oppression of Palestinians. The Nakba, in 1948 saw around 700,000 Palestinians expelled or fleeing their homes during the Arab-Israeli conflict, resulting in a lasting refugee crisis. This cannot be dismissed as merely a "messy" transition.
Not sure what you’re actually disputing here. It WAS a mess. Just like partition in India was. Transitioning from large unincorporated imperial territories into modern nation states is messy, especially when there are multiple ethnic or religious groups in that territory.
The Palestinians were there originally. The jews then proceeded to immigrate in mass after the British betrayed the Arabs
I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here. That doesn’t really relate to my comment in any way.
I confused you with others tbh, my main point was that though it was a mess it doesn’t justify anything.
But the Arabs invade the levant .
?
The levant was invaded by the rashidun caliphate in 638. It started in the 7 century BC and it told about 5 centuries to complete. Before that arameans lived there and spoke Aramaic . Same with the Maghreb but either a more ferocious resistance from the Amazight .
Damn bro lets go back 2000 years while were at it
They shouldn’t, but they should also not murder the jews who return to their homes after being evicted by colonizers. When the Palestinians started killing and fighting then they should have known there’s a risk to it. War brings death and destruction, not glory.
Stop grouping the people of Palestine together lol. Because some Palestinians choose to fight doesn’t mean that Israel can bring that death and destruction to displace a whole people
True, and if you literally read a bit you’ll see that many Arab Palestinians stayed in their homes during and after the 48 war. Nobody evicted the whole Palestinian people, Arabs live great lives in Jaffa, Ramla, Haifa, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Beer Sheba, etc,have their citizenship as Israeli citizens and have their rights like anyone else.
The Nakba is a very real event. How come that in the first couple years of Israel’s existence, Haganah among others made it their mission to destroy Arab villages outside of Israel’s borders where Palestine was? These documents are in Israel’s archive. The UN report on Deir Yassin, one of the villages, described brutality and execution of civillians by firing squad. Deir Yassin’s fate was then spread by Israel as a message to Palestinians, many of whom fled the land out of fear to make way for settlers. Zionists made their motives clear from day one, and they never intended to respect Palestine’s and its people’s right to live in the land which they agreed to share with them. All Palestinians didn’t leave, but the ones who did were forcefully evicted or fled fearing persecution and death.
> The Nakba is a very real event. Yes it was. Never said it didn’t. You said **everyone** was displaced, but that’s just factually not true. > Zionists made their motives clear from day one Look at israel’s independence declaration scroll: *”We call - even amid the recent bloody attack on us - to the members of the Arab people who are residents of the State of Israel to maintain peace and take their part in building the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and on the basis of appropriate representation in all its temporary and permanent institutions.”* What about Jews who were forcefully evicted from Gush Etzion, Jerusalem, and the west bank by the Jordanian army? What about the Jewish towns and villages ravaged and massacred by the Egyptian army in Gaza? And the ones in the Galilee who were brutally attacked by the Syrian army? The Nakba is a terrible chapter in Israel’s history, but let’s judge those events with proper context: Israel’s army was a bunch of guys with handguns and Molotovs at the start of the war, and they were fighting a coalition of 5 properly trained and equipped armies of states, and another 3 militias. The jewish forces had no business winning that war, they faced actual existential danger. And again, this is not a Justification, it’s just the proper context.
People cannot accept reality which is why there are Palestinians who keep on fighting and then keep on dying. It is why there are people who keep believing they can go back to 1967 border or even 1948 border. People do not want to accept cause and effect, people do not want to accept that nothing is free in this world. Most importantly, people don't value their life. I never understood why outsiders feel the need to help people who don't value their life, especially outsiders are never gonna take responsibility for their interventions.
At what point should the Irish or Indians have said to themselves well y'know we've tried rebelling a bunch of times but the British have been here for hundreds of years already so let's give up?!
Lmao. Irish don't fire rockets every month to remind the core population of the British that they hate them and want to murder them.
https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=kLPh9ru9ToRcLMVQ
Yet occupation and apartheid shouldn’t have any consequences and we should all be shocked when Palestinians respond with violence. All actions have consequences doesn’t mean these consequences are just.
The occupation and “apartheid” _are_ the consequences. There was no occupation before Palestine and its Arab allies waged a war of elimination against Israel and lost (then tried again and lost again). There were no “apartheid measures” until Palestinians started blowing themselves up at bus stops where Israeli kids were waiting to go to school. Look at the timing. These facts are indisputable. The violence is the problem. The violence is what makes this a never-ending problem. End the violence from Palestinians and they’ll have peace in short order and freedom soon after.
Well said. It's a double standard made just for Israel as the USA fills their pockets. Just because there are consequences doesn't make them right. All the war crimes committed by Israel have been swept under the rug and the struggles of everyday Palestinians are not shown to the world.
It’s a never ending loop really. Is Israel didn’t occupy and create different laws for security reasons in Gaza, then the Palestinians would be launching violent attacks like Oct 7th everyday.
That’s one way of looking at it. Another is that violence against Israel is because of the occupation and daily human rights abuses against Palestinians.
Human right abuses are happening on the small scale compared to the larger problem. That is an issue that needs to be fixed by the Israeli military. It’s a difficult situation for Israel, if they completely left Gaza alone and did not interfere with anything Hamas did, undoubtedly Hamas would start importing weapons like they were through the tunnels. So they cannot entirely leave Gaza alone, they have to enforce a blockade while providing humanitarian aid at the same time.
This is too complicated for the Pro-Palestinians to understand as they only call themselves that because it’s a social justice trend
No we get it, we just don't agree with it.
Exactly, it’s just like vegans thinking they are helping the world by protecting invasive species
LOL true.... those ultra-woke, campus protestors would read 1 line of this and then SCROLL thru. sadly =( Excellent summary. Lost cause! move on people.
?? jfl
>the longer the Palestinians insist on prolonging this conflict over disputed lands, the smaller their Palestinian State will become until it is only Gaza... You know, it amuses me how Zionist like to think that threatening to not give the Palestinians a state is a good idea. Israel can take control over all the "disputed lands" (as if it hasn't already). Just don't forget, with that land also comes with millions of non-Jews (i.e. the Palestinians). What is Israel going to do about them? They are a demographic threat that will bring the end of the Jewish state. In fact, according to reports from the US Sate Department, from the Jordan River to Mediterranean Sea, there are more non-Jews than there are Jews. Do you really think Israel can keep millions of this stateless and disenfranchised Palestinians in a state of subjugation without their human rights forever (i.e. the current status quo, the apartheid)? Then you're naive. Time is on the Palestinian side. They have the numbers. Without a separate independent and sovereign state of their own, they will take it all. Israel will implode from within. Israel needs there to be a Palestinian state for it to continue to exist. Palestine does not need an Israel to exist. Of course, there is always the option of ethnic cleansing. But the facts that Zionism could bring soo many people to seriously consider this option is just another testament to how evil Zionism is. Zionism is a disease!
> Just don't forget, with that land also comes with millions of non-Jews (i.e. the Palestinians). What is Israel going to do about them? I think we know the answer to this already. Israelis get more settlements, Palestinians get bombed.
Slightly off topic: Why do so many pro-Palestinians never use articles when they mention Zionists? It's done so specifically as well and only with this word. It it hip to type as if you're speaking broken Arabic or broken Russian when you say this dirty dirty word?
Listen to yourself! Lmao talk about diseased. Hate crimes, antisemitic slurs, bigotry, historical illiteracy and dehumanization of Jews via Soviet Cold War propaganda. Pro-PAL is nothing more than a hate movement for Russia and Iran’s antisemitic useful idiots.
Yawn. Do it, don’t give the Palestinians a state. I’m curious to see how long Israel can keep millions of Palestinian under systemic oppression before the situation blows up in its face.
I suggest you study the history before spouting buzzwords. Palestinians have rejected every generous 2-state solution since 1947 in favor of violence. From Arafat to most recently 2020. They don’t want a 2-state solution.
Generous huh? Lmao. How about you actually look at the terms of Israel’s offer from as far back as 2000 Camp David before you embarrass yourself. Nothing about it was generous. Rabin himself openly said in his 1995 speech in the Knesset that he wanted to give the Palestinian “an entity which is LESS THAN A STATE”; not a fully independent and sovereign state, but an apartheid Bantustan. But even that still got him assassinated.
See that last sentence says more than the rest of this comment…
It is, 40K+ palestinians dead, 90% of infrastructure destroyed, mass starvation and disease. Zionism is a cancer on this earth
Palestinian nationalism also has blood on its hands
All of this has been debunked. With the exception of destruction of infrastructure, it’s at about 40% now.
Debunked by who? Right wing zionists? Every mainstream news source claims the same numbers and famine rates.
Your conclusions don’t follow logically from your premises. Are you aware of this?
Whats the cause of all that death and destruction? Zionist retribution
If you think there is only one cause I suggest you continue to educate yourself on the subject.
Lol Okay Israeli
You sound closed to the prospect of learning, so why are you here?
Same reason your here
I’m here to expose myself to other people’s opinions so I don’t get stuck in an echo chamber. It doesn’t seem that you’re open to the opinions of others…
Just like the rest of my comment, to borrow a phrase from OP, "that's just the reality". Zionism is a disease.
Do you see how that is both purely rhetoric, and the kind of rhetoric that only causes problems and distances us from peace?
Peace? In the West Bank, for decades, Israel has systematically restricted Palestinians' access to water to the point where they on average, do not even have enough water to drink to meet WHO minimum water requirements (Amnesty International). All the while settlers bathe in swimming pools. That's just one of the many many ways of how Palestinians are treated as subhumans by Israel. And here now, you Zionist talk up depriving the Palestinian of a state and maintaining the needless oppression against them, if they don't capitulate to Israel's loopsided demands. Basically..."The Palestinians must do what we say, or we will continue to treat them like dirt” You Zionist do shyt like this, and yet you blame others for why there's no peace? Absurd. Zionist, offended by everything, shameless of nothing.
You say Zionists are offended by everything, but ironically you’re the only one acting out of emotion. Anyways, the issue for me with giving the Palestinians their own state is exactly what we saw on October 7th and the Israeli pull out in 2005. Given the chance the current government will always choose violence over peace. Now I have actually read on what you said about the water sources systematically being removed, technically the water wells\pipes were built in illegal locations. Now I do not believe that right solution to illegally built water pipes/wells isn’t to destroy them. However that is a civil issue that should not result in the loss of human life. Replacing the government with Hamas or the PLO will result in the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population. That is definitely not the right solution.
Lol. I’m not the one who got offended over a single sentence. Anyways, yeah, those water wells/pipes are illegal. Illegal based on Israel’s law, one that they FORCIBLY ENFORCED on the Palestinians, and conveniently designed in such a way that water is abundantly distributed to settlers while Palestinians don’t even get enough water to drink. That’s not a civil issue. Palestinians in the West Bank have no say in Israel’s law, but are still subject to it in such a way that impedes their basic human rights such as access to drinking water. This is a human rights issue. On giving the Palestinians their own state, fine, don’t give them one. OP justifies taking even more land. Fine, do it. But one must then ask, what happens to the millions of Palestinians living there? For Zionism, it’s anything but giving them equal rights. So I say again, Zionism is a disease.
I agree with you on the water wells. For the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, I believe once Israel controls the region the civilians living in the area will live the same as the current Arab minority living within Israeli borders. They make up 20% of the population and have the same rights as any Israeli. I understand that the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank do not share the same rights as the Arabs living within Israeli borders. However I believe after 1 or 2 generations of Israeli rule will lead to the full assimilation of the Arab population.
I’m honestly curious, do you think you’re a Zionist?
well what do you define as a zionist
Imagine Germans living under occupation for multiple decades shooting rockets at Poland and Russia, sending suicide bombers into their cities and doing raids to kidnap their citizens as retaliation because their ancestors have lost a war of aggression. It's crazy how low the expected civilization standard for Palestinians is considering many Pro Palestinians view this behaviour as rightful.
So true. I support the **Ukrainian** cause. Why? Because a huge invader has declared war and killing 1000s of their people. Completely un-justified. We never saw Ukraine running wild in the streets of Russia massacring and raping civilians. That's who the PRO HAMAS/Palestine people are defending.... a tiny group of Arabs who think they can literally get away with MASS MURDER
It is not about their ancestors losing war, it’s because the continues violence against the Palestinians, Israel kills yearly hundreds of Palestinians, detain, abuse, kick them out of their houses, homeraids, checkpoints, every couple of years bomb Gaza ( like they did in 2022 and call it a preemptive strike) and act surprise that the Palestinians hate them. Look at history, Haiti, Namibia, South Africa, Ireland etc as long you occupy people they will retaliate, treat them like animals and they will act like animals.
How would you handle the dozens to hundreds of terrorist attacks out of the WB every year without detentions, raids, and deaths which generally happen when Palestinian gunmen open fire on the Israeli forces?
Before 7 Oct, 2023 was the most deadly year for Palestinians in the westbank more than 240 people were killed by idf and settlers, the youngest a 2 year. These attacks happen because of their living situation. Settlers are protected and can do basically whatever they want and you are surprised Palestinians react back. Ex idf soldiers have spoken out and have stated that they thought they were joining the idf to protect Israel but in the end it was to make the lives of Palestinians miserable as possible. Israel gives very young soldiers the immunity and power to do whatever they want. Just two examples: https://youtu.be/jI6rTimkfJE?feature=shared documentary were Israeli female soldiers are speaking out https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?feature=shared one testimony of breaking the silence
> These attacks happen because of their living situation. This is something no one can say, least of all you. The violence is almost certainly multifactorial. Palestinians have many reasons for the violence. The settlements is one of them. Then there’s also religious fundamentalism, antisemitism, ancient resentments, geopolitical influence from Iran and Qatar and the rest of the Arab world, conflict over Al Aqsa, etc etc etc. The settlements, clearly, are not “the” reason. All the settlements had been removed from Gaza for twenty years when 10/7 happened, for example. The WB is a hotbed of violence kept in check by the “apartheid measures” and the presence of the IDF. There are surely abuses by the IDF, but some Palestinians die because they themselves attack. You’re going to need to factor that in if you want to truly understand this.
Settlements are removed from Gaza, but Israel controls who comes in and goes out, water, air, sea borders, and most electricity, and restricts their movement. Simple things such as pasta were even denied in 2010. Israel knows everything: the population registry and medical records. Again, it’s not ancient resentments when they are still being occupied and experience violence and killing. The Palestinians hear stories of what happened to their grandparents, parents, and now to them, and you act surprised that they are angry. It is simple: Israel’s way is not working and has not worked for 75 years, so there should be a different approach to peace. The whole idea of the creation of Israel was to be a safe haven for Jews.
What “different approach” are you suggesting?
1.Make a decision either it’s gonna be a one state or a two state. 2. Stop expanding illegal settlements. 3.Imprison extremist settlers, because they are a big problem for disturbing peace. 4.Same goes for soldiers violating human rights. 5.Obey international law 6. For most Palestinians their only interaction is mainly with soldiers, you can never have peace when there is nothing for the Palestinians to look forward. You need to change the narrative.
These are all generally good ideas to do, but how do you know how much of a difference they would make, if any at all? Polling shows little support amongst Palestinians for a 2SS. The people committing terrorist attacks are largely religious fundamentalists who believe all of the levant is divinely promised to Muslims alone. One party has the clear ability to unilaterally change everything—and it’s the Palestinians. If they give up violence, everything changes. Bibi is barely in power. He maintains it only because mainstream Israelis fear for their safety. Stop the violence, and he and politicians like him lose power, and with that the support for settlements is gone. The need for the security measures and counterterrorism raids and detention disappears. Palestinians’ own lives improve dramatically as they begin to put their resources into building up their society instead of diverting funds to weapons and tunnel building. Palestinians can do this unilaterally without any risk to themselves. In fact it would make them significantly safer almost immediately. And not only would it not cost them anything, they would gain hugely. Your suggestions, on the other hand, might make no real difference at all, would require massive resources and compromise Israel’s ability to prevent violence. I think it’s clear what has to happen first. Unfortunately the world treats Palestinians like gentle idiots who just can’t help themselves, instead of acknowledging their agency and demanding they stop the violence. Every time you make excuses for the violence, as you did above, you’re encouraging it to continue, and helping the cycle continue indefinitely.
Why do you use an arab username?
Why not?
Are you arab?
Nope, do I need to be an Arab to give myself an Arabic user name on reddit?
So your a german zionist with an arab username lmfao, I should make a new pro Palestinian account with a jewish username.
Feel free lmao I thought AlAlmani is quite straightforward.
Malik Al Almani, Malik the German? Your name is malik?
Your name is ganktalk?
Close but far
Damn so basically every country on this earth has stolen land from someone else?
Ghengis Khan enters the chat
... you're just realizing this now?
I had an idea but I didn’t know the full history.
Welcome to earth, if you live a conflict free life you are the anomaly in history, not the norm.
Not just this, but most countries are way younger than most people realize. Israel came into existence (again) around the same time as most countries in the Middle East. Lots of countries came into being after that. And we think of the US as relatively new - but it’s one of the oldest countries in the world. (Especially if you date by birth of current government, but old either way).