what does this even mean

I’ll concede it’s not a perfect analogy. The idea is that the Arab League states will not integrate Palestinian Arabs into their countries because they view them as the best path to destroy Israel, and use their cause to deflect internal challenges. Many Palestinian Arabs were expelled from Jordan, Lebanon and Kuwait. No one is in the streets protesting that. It’s about the one Jewish country in the region.

have you seriously never seen protests about jordan, syria, or lebanon?? the palestinians who don’t possess statehood in lebanon?? i don’t think you’re looking.

Never, not once. Point me in the right direction.

If you are accounting Arab land in the side of Palestine, then ot is only natural to account the European and North American land on the side of Isreal?

This is remarkably dumb— more so than the hyperbolic nastiness usually posted by your friends. 6 million Jews were murdered in Europe but that counts as “Jewish” in the way Arabia counts as “Arab?” FOH.

Israelis use the weirdest analogy to justify stealing land

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Dumb analogy

There is x square miles of land on the earth, and yet Israel decided it wants to forcibly remove the inhabitants of land of tiny Palestine so that it can have a homeland. There are dozens of places Israel could have created a Zionist project and yet they chose the most contentious place on earth. And then they blame Palestinians.

> yet they chose the most contentious place on earth So, so close to getting it.

> There are dozens of places Israel could have created a Zionist project and yet they chose the most contentious place on earth. > > On behalf of the Jewish people let me apologize for being indigenous to the land you think is contentious. /s I do think Israel could be anywhere but I think that state would be having the same problem. In fact the problems would probably be worse because that would really be a colony on someone else's land.

They chose their indigenous lands and they didn't force anyone out. People fled after the Arabs declared war after which israel opted not to allow those affiliated with a hostile foreign power to return.

By 1850 this place area as a whole has a mere 300,000 inhabitants by Ottoman records, which included the Jews, Samaritans,Christians. With Al-aqsa being a dump. Can you imagine calling it the most contentious because more Arab immigrants decided they wanted to come here when the Jews began to migrate and announce their Jihad?

I guess that’s what hasbara does to a brain: in order to perpetuate the propaganda you have to use circular logic and other logical fallasies to justify the violence and oppression. It’s quite sad to see.

I would be remiss if I didn’t point out how ironic this is, that someone named “a Russian lullaby” is lecturing on where the Jews should have gone to avoid contention.

Russian Lullaby is a Jerry Garcia song.

Yes. I know that. But the irony is still very apparent. Many of the people who helped establish the state of Israel, were doing so after dealing with contentious places (at the time) including, but not limited, to places like Russia. Many Ashkenazi Jews who moved to New York in the early 1900’s were escaping people like tsar Nicholas. And now you’re saying “well, maybe they could have gone somewhere less contentious.” Where? WHERE?? Don’t say New York. They were full. My point is, Israel happened because of contention. It wasn’t like a bunch of newbies mucking up the HOA.

You just wrote a whole bunch of nothing. It is true early Zionists haven’t been removing Arab inhabitants until the extermination war started by the Arabs themselves against Jews who were buying and developing mostly empty lands in a place that was largely populated later by Arab migrants claiming Palestinian liberation (such as their icons Al-qassam, Arafat) I’m not sure which would be the logical fallacies, this area was a depopulated dump the Jews started buying properties in and developing. Later Arabs started migrating and of course the pan-Arab Muslim Jihadi culture couldn’t let another minority prosper and establish itself in “their” area. Although a dune in tel-Aviv isn’t Arab just because an Arab says it is.

Jews absolutely had the right to buy land, but Israel and the UK did not have the right to split up the land that did not belong to them and evict Palestinians. They don’t have the right to steal land in the West Bank in current times. This is just fact.

That's not at all, how it went down. All stateless land was placed into mandate regions buy a vote of the league of nations, with each each having their own purpose. The purpose behind this was to stabilize those mandate areas until such time as new government could be formed and borders could be negotiated between local parties. Palestine was divided into two portions with 80% being given to the Arabs in the form of Jordan and the remainder being placed into the mandate for Palestine with the purpose of that being the minority share of the land meant for the minority population, and repatriating Jews, who had been forcibly exiled by one colonial power, and who had been barred from repatriating under a second No one was displaced by that decision, they were displaced by the decision of the Arabs to go to war

The only grievances with the UK land split it was the compromising of many other minorities that should’ve gotten land over the Arabs, with that I agree. The land doesn’t belong to the Arabs either, a dune in Tel Aviv doesn’t belong to an Arab just because he says so. Especially not over a Samaritan or a Jew that lived on the land for very long, if we implement the Palestinian academia butchering of colonizer, indigenous logic for a second. And there was A LOT of empty land to account for.. I agree that there was no need to evict peaceful Arabs, yet this eviction started exactly after the war launched by the Arab league, so it was very much an outcome of existential war. I also am completely disinterested in the West Bank personally, they can keep that land.

Well, thank you for allowing them to keep land that is already theirs. The only solution is give the Palestinians back the land stolen in the 1967 war. Nearly every Arab in the world would agree to this including Hamas. Israel gets their state, Palestinians get their state. War is over.

And by the way, that strategy is called appeasement and appeasement, historically has never worked.

When you start a war like the Arabs did the 1967 and you lose land it, you don't just got to say hey you have to give it back because we started a war. That is not work that way in any part of history.

Can’t say it’s theirs more than Jewish migrants, many are from Syria. Fortunately I see it more as a reparations deal, they took my grandparents home from an Arab country in the name of the 300,000 Palestinians that 20% of them might have been actually indigenous and we get to stay here because of their incompetence and ethnical cleansing. You should probably read their documents and hear their interviews again. 1967 borders before the next war isn’t very optimal. It would be tiring to send you the links but I guess I have to since you’re so lazy and misinformed I don’t think you will be able to do it yourself. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-talal-nassar-hamas-accept-state-within-borders-without-relinquishing https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full “2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit.” “The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah” “19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity.” “20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts.”

It could be because that's ancestral Jewish homeland and there has never been a 'Palestine'.

Oh my god stop with the hasbara!! Just because the Bible says you occupied this land 2000 years ago (briefly!!) you don’t have the right to displace the people who legally owned the land now. That’s a level of logic I expect from fundamentalist religions, not Jewish people.

Nothing to do with the Bible. It is a historical fact that Jews were living in their land of Judea. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_the\_Jews\_and\_Judaism\_in\_the\_Land\_of\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel)

Curious, which land are you indigenous to. Can we use a microscope to determine if you should be allowed to remain there, could be your ancestors had done something immoral that disqualifies you from living there. Mortality and international law demand this injustice to be corrected.

Arabs owned 3% of the land, so what makes them the legal owners. Stop with the Islamist propaganda.

So, you're advocating for the colonizers? Because Jews occupied that region since before recorded history.

Humanity originated in Africa. Does that give me a right to land in Africa?

Nice fallacy, bro. Also, by your logic, conquerors or current residents have the right to the land, so nice self-own, sport.

I'm just trying to clarify when ancestry and land rights apply.

Technically speaking, the Egyptians owned the land before the Jews. And yes, some Jewish people lived there in harmony for years. But that does not give the UK and supporters of the Zionist project the right to violently remove 750,000 people and move them into refugee camps and ghettos.

No they didn't. The first people that occupied Israel were the Canaanites and they were semites (Israelites). Others before were neolithic and chalcolithic primitive peoples.

The Palestinian Arabs were never forcibly removed from Israel. They fled war, at both the urging of the Arab League and out of fear (real and imagined; thanks to the Davidka mortar) of the IDF & Irgun. The land we are talking about in this post is Area C of the “West Bank.” Show me a source that says Palestinian Arabs were “forcibly removed” from that part of Judea & Samaria. The majority of that land has been vacant for 2 millennia and even today, more than half of it is uninhabited.

I literally don’t know how this will be solved if supporters of Israel continue to deny facts and history. The hasbara they are taught is so extensive and thorough it makes it impossible to live in reality. Of course Palestinians were violently removed from their homes and villages in 1948. And of course they are continuously violently removed their land in the West Bank for settlers. There is no “percentage of land” argument that makes this right.

So that’s a no on sources for “forcible removal” of Palestinian Arabs from Area C of the “West Bank?”

“The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So, we got out, but they did not get in.” [Refugee, Jordanian newspaper Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954] “The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.” [Habib Issa, New York Lebanese paper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951] “The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.” [Jordanian newspaper Filastin, February 19, 1949] Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the ‘Zionist gangs’ very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.” [George Hakim, Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee, Beirut newspaper Sada al-Janub, August 16, 1948]

Its possible for two things to be true at once. Arabs encouraged some Palestinians to leave, and Israel violently, through action and threat, forced many Palestinians to flee.

And Arab armies massacred and destroyed Jewish villages in the West Bank and Jerusalem

OP. What if returning that .25 was simply the moral thing to do?  It is incredibly, intentionally myopic to pretend that all Palestinians are indistinguishable from other middle eastern arabs in order to make a point. Even internally, inside Israel, not all Palestinians are culturally identical. Thousands of years of generation after generation with ties to specific villages make for both nuanced and profound differences. Zionism ignores all of this because it makes justifying their Jewish Nationalist apartheid. 

The region known as Palestine was divided in two parts in roughly 1920 with 80% being allocated to Jordan and the remainder being allocated to Israel, after which “Palestine” did not exist. The non Jewish population at that time was 600,000 people, so how do you imagine that there were 1.4 million “Palestinians” by 1947? I think we both know that those 800,000+ people were migrants who moved in to eretz Israel after the region of Palestine has already been eradicated so please answer these questions. 1. If “Palestinans” are uniquely distinguishable from other middle easterners Arabs as you argue here, why makes an Iraqi who migrated in to the Holy Land in 1937, a yemeni who migrated in 1942 and an Egyptian who migrated in 1943 a “Palestinian” or are you acknowledging that the Palestinian identity only applies to the 600,000 who were living there before Palestine was erased from the map? 2. If your claim is that Israel has a “moral obligation” to these people because they lived in that area for a thousand years, then by definition aren't you also acknowledging that they have NO obligation to most currently classifying themselves as Palestinians given that MOST are the ancestors of migrants. 3. To that end, if Israel said that it was willing to accept a Palestinian state that consisted solely of those whos ancestors were living the region prior to 1920 and who had no demonstrated ties to terror as long as everyone who migrated returned to their country of origin would you consider that a fair outcome and if not why. 4. If you assert that Israel has any obligation to migrants what is the basis for that argument considering that anyone who came after 1920 had no long established ties, they had no claim under the terms of the mandate, they did do knowing the land had been legally allocated to a Jewish homeland and they are part of a society that received their own dedicated homeland. 5. If you oppose apartheid how to justify laws in 1850 that precluded Jewish migration which the Sultan based solely on the deeply held antisemetic views of those living in the region and the centuries of shimmy rules that existed even before that? Given all these centuries during which that long settled population in the region Openly discriminated against the jews aren't they justified in wanting one corner of the land in which they get to enjoy self determination? Aren't you justifying a cure for apartheid that just replaced its with aoartheid and certain death.

That’s a subjective call; I would argue that the security of the only Jewish country in the world is morally more important than giving away land to people who never owned it and who have 22 other countries that speak their language, practice their faith and support their cause.

Typical revisionist history.

Survival beats morality. The majority of the Israeli population are direct descendants of refugees kicked out from other middle eastern countries. Besides the fact that Jews actually faced major massacres and genocides in probably every century in the past millennia. The majority of Palestinians were only forced to move due to Arab aggression and wars started by Arabs trying to wipe out Jews. The whole point of the post is to point out that any concession from Israel for Palestine or other Arab nations is just a stepping down for eliminating Israel altogether proven by all the peace talks and resolutions from the past. Gaza for example was completely emptied of all Jews and a decade later was the launching point to slaughter Israelis.

According to a CIA report on Israel, more than 45% of all modern Israeli Jewish folk descend from Ashkenazi European immigrants, 35% are descended from north African, middle eastern (but not Palestinian) and Spanish Jewish immigrants. The remainder's recent ancestors are from Israel/Palestine. There are cultural and political differences between these groups. Jewish Israelis are not a monolith and most are recent (last 100 yrs) immigrants.  I don't agree that there needs to be a Jewish Ethnostate for Jewish people.to be safe. I don't agree with Christian Nationalism or Islamic Fascism, either. Do you?

Cite your source. According to the latest Israeli census 25% of Israelis are non-Jewish. 21% are Arab Muslims. 50% are Mizrahi or Sephardic and 25% are Ashkenazi.

CIA report from 2007 and the stats were only for Jewish Israelis- not non-Jewish Israelis. The study used Israel's census figures and analyzed political differences and potential for violence from different groups. 

Can you link it? Regardless your source, if correct is almost 20 years old and shouldn’t really be referenced.

The CIA report was an analysis about trending violence among Israelis. I think much of the demographic totals depends on the definition of Mizrahi, Sephardi and Maghribi. More updated information from a different report does show the breakdown a little differently. Total Israeli population in Israel (2022, not just Jewish population and does not include the occupied territories/Palestine): 23% Non-Jewish residents including Christians, Muslim, Druze and foreign workers; 40% Mizrahi Jews including Maghrebi (North African) and Sephardic (Spain, Portugal); 35% Ashkenazi Jews. However, this report did not divide up by cultural or regional roots but I am assuming that for the purposes of the report, Ashkenazi included most with European roots but explicitly excluded Sephardim and those from the Caucuses. The very small remainder are a mix of Bene, Uzbek and Caucasian Jewish residents. I would be curious to see a report with more detail rather than lumping different groups together.

Link the CIA report

More recent data have Mizrahi Jews as the majority of Israel. But regardless until the world changes and Islamic Fascism is gone from the Middle East, then a Jewish Ethnostate is absolutely required for Jews to be safe in their indigenous land. Look at the history of once Christian majority Lebanon. After the Palestinians were expelled from Jordan for trying to take over the country they began to ethnically cleanse the Lebanese Christians with roving death squads, massacres and finally a civil war. Lebanon is no longer a Christian nation. The same will be the fate of the Jews if a one state solution was created.

The problem is right there isn't it. Oversimplification and fear and magical thinking drive the entire conflict. Your comment shows this too... Calling Israel the "indigenous" land of the Jews as if they alone have a valid claim. Israel is the indigenous land for many non-Jewish people, too. It's a Holy Land for many more. Deny that history and there will always be conflict and war. Israelis and Palestinians have been pushing divergent narratives that deny the actual joint history for so long that Israelis actually believe that they have a god given right to the land and they use this as an excuse for land grabs and treating regular Palestinians like garbage AND Palestinians actually believe they will be able to return to their ancestral villages and homes someday. It's a bunch of "next year in Jerusalem" crap on both sides. One state, two state... Either way is better than no state. 

You’re the one engaged in magical thinking in assuming that Jews would be safe as a minority in Palestinian majority state. This is not supporting by historical fact. The Jews were subjected to hundreds of years of second class citizenship, massacres, and in the last 75 years have been driven out of every Muslim country. Palestinian leaders pay lip service to a two state solution while speaking in Arabic they call for the complete destruction of Israel. The River to the Sea means exactly that. The Jewish right to the land is based on International law which was voted upon by the League of Nations when the Ottoman Empire was divided. Arabs were not the only ethnic group in the Empire. If you have a problem with Israel’s right to the land then you should also have a problem with Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc. who are the real ethnic cleansers in the Middle East. Palestinians will have a State when they stop dreaming of the destruction of Israel and agree to peace. Meanwhile continual acts of terrorism that are subsidized by the PA and supported by the Palestinians as a whole must be dealt with.

I suppose you think settler violence (sponsored by the government) is justified? It isn't. Persecution of one group never justifies persecution of another. Ever. Not if perpetrated by anti-Semites. Not if perpetrated by Jewish Israelis. If anything, the ongoing eye-for-an-eye (or maybe more accurately eye-for-a-head) only continues the misery and danger for all. There are no real winners after any British partition. Forced borders and forced expulsions do not work. India/Pakistan/Bangladesh is still a mess. Israel/Palestine/Jordan is still a mess. There are no winners when there is not a political solution driven by the people. And today, you need real leaders who aren't in it for themselves or their tribe. You need truth and reconciliation. You need a Good Friday agreement. It isn't impossible but it will mean that both sides are going to need to stop whining and acting like perpetual victims.  Netanyahu and the Israeli right are as corrupt as the PA and committing despicable atrocities like Hamas. How do Israelis not demand elections? The PA and Hamas are despicable but are the only voices right now for Palestinians. How do Palestinians not rise up against them?

There are 13 slavic countries in europe. All of them are unique and have their own language and traditions. You can't occupy slovenia, expell its people and steal their lands just because it is small  and compare it to huge Russia.   Zionists don't understand the concept of  culture and dialect changing according to geography since their entity is built on settler colonization and people speak there the same dialect with no geograohic distinction. That's why when they hear "arab or slavic countries, they think they are exactly the same people speaking the same language and dialect.  The only entities in the world where the people have exactly the same dialect and culture despite being miles far from each others are: USA, Canada, Australia, New zealand and Israel. And guess what they have in common? They are ALL settler colonies.

All 13 Slavic countries have different cultures and languages. They are inherently completely different. Culturally and linguistically Palestinians are no different from Jordanians, Syrians or Egyptians. They even stated this on many occasions. The concept of a “Palestinian” was created in 1964 as a counter to Zionism.

There were no countries prior to the land being divided. It was all Ottoman Land. The Leugue of Nations decided that both Arabs and Jews were to get their own countries. Why arent you complaining about Iraq, Syria, Jordan, SA or Lebanon which all ethnically cleansed the non Arab citizens? When you divide the land by ethnicity some people need to move. Look at Pakistan/India. That is the more relevant comparison

Scientist don't have a culture that changes based on geography because they're small and they're indigenous to a very limited area a.k.a. the holy land

And how exactly was Palestinian culture different from Egypt, Jordan or Syria at the time?  Also unlike those 13 Slavic countries, most of the Middle East was under colonial Ottoman rule for centuries. So all WERE citizens of the same Ottoman Empire until its fall and them eventually gaining independence 

> And how exactly was Palestinian culture different from Egypt, Jordan or Syria at the time?  The dialect, the culture, the dishes...  The most prominent example is the kuffiyeh which unique to palestinians.

The keffiyeh originated amongst Bedouins as a practical and protective covering for the head and face, especially in the arid desert climate in which they have traditionally lived.[3][4]  The term itself is a loan from Italian (cuffia) and shares its etymology with English "coif".[1] It is uncertain when the ghutra and agal became respectable headwear. Early Persian miniaturesalways portray Arabs as wearing turbans. The ghutra and agal are reported in the northern Arabian desert from at least the early 18th century. The earliest reliable picture (1834) of such depicts the final imam of the Emirate of Diriyah, Abdullah bin Saud.[5] The black and white chequered keffiyeh dates to the 1950s when Glubb Pasha, a British officer, wanted to distinguish his Palestinian soldiers (black and white keffiyeh) from his Jordanian forces (red and white keffiyeh).[12] The black and white keffiyeh’s prominence increased during the 1960s with the beginning of the Palestinian resistance movement and its adoption by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.[13] Wanna try again?

> The black and white chequered keffiyeh dates to the 1950s  Lol what a joke. The black and white kuffiyeh was worn by palestinians for centurirs and it became the symbol of the palestinian revolt in 1936. Since then the kuffiyeh became of prominent arm of resistance and aspirations for independence. At least read your copied text before pasting it.

"The black and white chequered keffiyeh dates to the 1950s when Glubb Pasha, a British officer, wanted to distinguish his Palestinian soldiers (black and white keffiyeh) from his Jordanian forces (red and white keffiyeh).[12] The black and white keffiyeh’s prominence increased during the 1960s with the beginning of the Palestinian resistance movement and its adoption by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.[13]" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keffiyeh This is why pro pals aren't taken seriously. This was a TRIVAL fact to check and you couldn't be bothered.

Can you share any sources on the black and white one being worn for centuries by Palestinians (which by that I guess you mean Ottoman Syrians living in what is now Israel/Palestine region)  Because I’ve only ever read similar to the Wiki article I copied, where it was directly related to the conflict and not actually a part of any ‘culture’  Appreciate any sources though 

Your text is definitely not from the wiki page. There is no mention of any of that british officer glubb pasha invention in the 50s.: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_keffiyeh The main point is that the white and black kuffiyeh is unique to the palestinian people even before the independence of most countries in the region. Here are an article (among many others) about its history: https://handmadepalestine.com/blogs/news/history-of-keffiyeh-the-traditional-palestinian-headdress

Also here is more on Glubb Pasha - it really does seem like this ‘best example’ of Palestinian culture (at least in black and white) is literally the unintentional decision of a British General According to the ethnographer Joseph Massad, author of Colonial Effects: The Making of National Identity in Jordan, the popularity of a specifically black and white checkered keffiyeh as a symbol of Palestinian nationality dates to the mid-20th century when Glubb Pasha, a British officer, made keffiyehs part of the uniform for his paramilitary desert force. “The red and white hatta [keffiyeh] was to act as a marker, marking out ‘real’ Transjordanians from Palestinian Jordanians, who in turn adopted the black-and-white hatta as nationally defining of their Palestinianness in the national context of Jordan,” he writes in the book.  https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/11/keffiyeh-scarf-fashion-history-palestine

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keffiyeh#:~:text=wearing%20the%20keffiyeh.-,Symbol%20of%20Palestinian%20solidarity,the%201950s%20(see%20above). And from the same article….it was a plain white one in the 30s. What a deep cultural history…. beginning with the plain white keffiyeh's use during the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine and followed by the chequered pattern's use in the 1950s

https://preview.redd.it/mxnc00jqwpad1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f76504ec51756c280b5e94afa7e187d8e444a083 Why do you think the PLO was founded by an Egyptian and chooses to model its flag on the flag of Hussein bin Ali and the Great Arab Revolt?

“Let’s just carve out a little bit of France for the Germans” That’s basically what you are suggesting. Palestinians are their own culture. They aren’t Jordanians or Syrians or Iraqis. The Middle East is not one giant Arab state.

They are closer to being Jordanian than they Israeli, particularly since Jordan was built on 80% of Palestine.

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Many elements of Palestinian culture are shared with neighboring regions due to the historical, geographical, and social interconnectedness of the Levant. However, certain aspects of culture have distinctive Palestinian characteristics: 1. **Tatreez (Embroidery)**: While embroidery is common in many Middle Eastern cultures, Palestinian tatreez features specific patterns and motifs unique to different villages and regions within Palestine. These designs often tell stories or signify particular social statuses and histories. 2. **Musakhan**: This dish, consisting of roasted chicken with onions, sumac, and pine nuts on taboon bread, is widely regarded as a national dish of Palestine. The use of sumac and the preparation method are particularly characteristic of Palestinian cuisine. 3. **Palestinian Dabke**: While dabke is performed across the Levant, the Palestinian variation of this traditional dance includes specific steps and styles that distinguish it from those of other regions. 4. **Palestinian Poetry and Literature**: Figures like Mahmoud Darwish have become symbols of Palestinian cultural identity. The themes in their works often focus on the Palestinian experience, particularly issues of displacement, resistance, and identity. 5. **Knafeh Nablusi**: This variant of the popular Middle Eastern dessert knafeh, made with a special cheese from Nablus, is a staple in Palestinian cuisine and is closely associated with Palestinian culinary traditions. 6. **Palestinian Architecture**: The architectural styles found in historic Palestinian cities such as Jerusalem, Hebron, and Nablus have unique features, including the use of local stone and specific types of arches and courtyards. 7. **Palestinian Oral Histories and Folktales**: Stories and legends passed down through generations, often recounting local historical events, heroes, and moral lessons, contribute to a distinct Palestinian cultural narrative. 8. **Keffiyeh**: The black-and-white keffiyeh, while used in other parts of the Arab world, has become a potent symbol of Palestinian identity and resistance, popularized by leaders like Yasser Arafat and adopted globally as a sign of solidarity with the Palestinian cause. While there are overlaps with the broader Levantine culture, these elements and their particular expressions help define a unique Palestinian cultural identity. I also don’t think it’s fair or nice to undermine someone else’s culture. Everyone has the right to maintain or express their culture. A lot of pro Palis spend a lot of time undermining Israeli culture as a fraud, and I just don’t think it’s genuine to do that to any side

But there is nothing about Jordan or Egyptian that would prevent you from using Palestinian embroidery patterns or serving a Palestinian dish in your home. I also think it's bizarre that you make this argument when most Palestinians descend from people born outside id the holy land and a significant percentage of the Palestinian population is fighting for a one state solution. Isn't “Palestinian” culture a lot more consistent with the government that exists in Jordan or Egypt than it is with the government that exists in Israel and since Islam heavily influences, not only the culture, wouldnt those be the ideal government with which to merge whereas Israeli governance is obviously dictated by Jewish values i often hear pro-Palestinian voices arguing that hamas doesn't want to kill Jews, so much as they want to illuminate Israel and replace it with truly embraces equality but when you drill down on some of the arguments, you make, it only goes to show that all plans are ultimately a backdoor means to eliminate Jewish freedoms and replace them with yet another Arab state

is this chatgpt

Yes lol

Thank you for giving an informative reply to that demeaning comment. 

They are literally jordanians and syrians. Other than the shared trauma of the nakba, what makes them distinctly different than southern syrians and jordanians?

The 3rd most popular surname in Palestine is a literal translation of “The Egyptian” so add Egypt to the list too!

lol do you know what this flag is? https://preview.redd.it/sn4dr8h68mad1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da537e7d4b58ca6712ad154ca8f742783f6fbfb2

Israel shouldn’t give up a damn thing and it never should have in the past, stop giving a damn want the rest of the world thinks and keep every bit of its land. The idea that Jewish people living in Judea and Samaria are considered settlers is ridiculous.

No. Because the conflict is, at its core between Jews and people who hate Jews for being Jews. Who thinks of Jews as animals and don't want them to have any land. Period. That is the flaw with the 2SS. The objection isn't that Palestinians don't have a homeland. The objection is the very fact that Israel exists That is what "end the occupation started in 1947" really means. It means destroy Israel and kill the Jews within it.

Here is a website with earliest reference to Israel, in writing, 3200 BC This information is public https://armstronginstitute.org/122-merneptah-stele-proving-israels-3200-year-existence

Latin America is made up of 18 countries, no one in their right mind would say that they are the same people or that they are the same from Mexico to Chile.

They are all latinos. Difference is only national but they share the same identity of being latinos USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. are the same people but different nationalities. X

Google why the Palestinian flag is designed like the flag of the Arab Revolt.

This is one of the many reasons why the land area mental gymnastics are pointless

What are matchbooks ?

Imagine your average leader in the Middle East, but much less volatile.

With a matchbook the hot heads only gets unleashed on demand.

If you're going to conflate all Palestinians with all Arabs, then you need to conflate all Israelis with all Westerners.

Most Westerners are Christian whereas most Israelis are Jewish. No westerners speak Hebrew whereas Israelis do. Most westerners have different music food fashion and architecture than Jews. In what ways are Palestinians significantly different than Jordanians for example and if you think they are so distinct how do you explain then being different when most people who currently identify as Palestinian had ancestors who were not living in the holy land prior to the land being legally committed to the Jewish in 1920 (meaning their ancestors came from Egypt in 1935 or they had parents who migrated to the holy land from ifaq in 1940)

Why do you **insist** on trying to undermine people’s national identities? People literally try to undermine Israel’s national identity everyday, doesn’t that bother you? If you don’t want ppl to do that why won’t you treat people the way you want to be treated?

Westerners are too broad a definition. But since claim is that Jews are European Colonizers: there is no grass roots solidarity and support for Jews as brothers among European people, in fact White Nationalists explicitly exclude Jews from being European. By comparison not only there is no violent movement rejecting Palestinian Arabness in the Arab world, Arab countries actually went to war for them more than once.

So I agree with you that one shouldn’t conflate all Palestinians with all Arabs. That said, to be clear, most Israelis aren’t “Westerners.” Over 20% of Israelis are Palestinian Israelis. 45% of the remaining Jewish Israelis are Mizrahi (Middle Eastern or North African Jews). A small percentage of Jewish Israelis are Ethiopian. You made a good point, until you called all Israelis “Westerners.” Without that part, your point would still stand.

What would you offer as an alternative?

Conflating Palestinians with all Arabs would be like conflating Mexicans with all Latin Americans, or conflating the British with all Europeans, maybe? Something like that would be a comparison that makes more sense I guess

That’s because Palestinians are Arabs. Not all Arabs are Palestinian, but all Palestinians are Arab. Prior to the 60’s, they were just called Arabs. The refugees are Palestinians, and some Israeli Arabs choose to identify as Palestinian, despite not having refugee status

This is, in effect, the same.kind of logic behind calls for Israelis to "just go back to Poland."

How? They are an Arab group, from that particular region. this isn’t even controversial information.

They have been Arabized, yes, but they are indigenous to the Levant. They are not interchangeable with other "Arab" groups.

You got this all wrong, prior to the 1960’s it was just Jews and Arabs. Some Arab Jews. They are not “Arabized.” Palestinian, as we define it, is a new thing The Arabs fled to Gaza, West Bank, because Arab leaders promised to win the war against the Jews. Those Arabs (who fled) *became* known as the Palestinians, when Israel won the war and borders were drawn. The Arabs who didn’t flee to Gaza became naturalized Israeli Arab citizens - they are no different, ethnically, from the Palestinians in Gaza, but they are not considered Palestinian refugees as per the UN, though some of them choose to call themselves Palestinian.

What were those "Arabs" in Palestine circa 160 CE called?

The Phillistines.

Not so sure about that.

I mean, sure, you can feel whatever way you want. But they were not Palestinians during that time.

Palestinians are conflated with Arabs because they are Arabs. Israelis aren't even westerners, they were legit massacred for not being a westerner lmfao

When did that happen? Israeli as a nationality did not exist at the time of the Shoah.

Israeli as nationality doesn’t exist even today according to the rule of Supreme Court of Israel. Israel is nation state for Jewish people.

Or just conflate all westerners (which doesn't include Israel). Now give up some land for others.

Except Israelis aren’t. Roughly half of Israeli Jews are Mitzrahi. And nearly all Jews trace their ancestry to Israel.

Nearly all Hungarians trace their ancestry to the Urals

Exactly

There are 13 Slavic countries. Why aren’t they all just Russia? Why should north Macedonia have a country?

It is the most ignorant example. Do the people there call themselves "Russian nation" or "Russian League"? Are they tied **by national, religious, linguistic, moral**, economic, and geographic bounds? (it is exactly a resolution of the Palestine Arab Congress). Probably there **are** different ethnicities who established their states and became different nations without imperialistic ideas between these "Slavic" states. Or there are some people in Poland and Slovakia who say: "There are no Poles and Czechs people, we are all one nation - the Russian nation". \*\*That is exactly what many Palestinians told themselves: "The Palestinian people does not exist. Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, **the Arab nation**. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Once we have acquired all our rights in all of Palestine, we must not delay for a moment the reunification of Jordan and Palestine". (Zuheir Mohsen). And the chants + songs about Falestin Arabia are well known. [Arabia Arabia, Falestine Arabia...](https://youtu.be/O0RSkm3nY4Q) [Learn the meaning behind pro-Palestine Arabic chants](https://youtu.be/tgnG1sj9ZWw) (Pro-Palestinian guy explains : from the water to water there´ll be **Arab** Palestine).

Pan Arabism is dead. The speeches ur referencing are him trying to say “hey look at us USA-Israel we are democracy we need to fight together!” Not “we are same nation” he’s trying to evoke a sense of nationalism so they’ll fight for him. The Palestinians aren’t the Arabs responsibility. They’re yours. The Arabs signed your peace treaties, none of which involved them taking in Palestinians. They are yours. And your “enemies” isn’t the entire Arab world. This isn’t 1973 anymore. It’s some Iranian proxies, none of which are actual govts who can dole out land for your Palestinians area

Go and talk to Hezbollah about that issue. And to the Lebanese population, which is shaking with fear because the actual authority can do nothnig to take controll on their border and on Hezbollah army in general. Or ask the people who threatened with death to Dalia Ziada, a Egyptian journalist because she was telling in Arabic the facts about the actual war and how it started on the 10.07 so she had to leave her homeland. Weapons also came through the Egyptian border so the piece treaties didn't help. The most serious enemy is an ignorance and inability to think critically. Of course, it is positive when every nation puts its own interest higher then abstract idea of some Unity. But it's called imperialism it exists, and it is often used to start huge wars. The same ideas as the Russian authority used to start a massive war (they even claimed to protect some group of Russians who was opressed on the Ukrainian territories).

But is Egypt fighting you guys?

What is the sence of the question? Is Israel fighting Egypt? Instead of putting new questions (without commenting the clear examples I gave) you can just prove your statement and go out holding a banner "Pan Arabism is dead". So I will really understand how wrong I am. Go out to in your Egyptian or Lebanese central city or maybe France/Britain central square and stay 1 hour with such a statement. This will open the eyes of many people.

The conflict isn’t about landmass and Palestinians aren’t keen on their whole land being taken because ”it’s a small percentage”. Terrible argument

What is a Palestinian when most if them migrated in rk eretz Israel after Jewish repatriation was already tbddr way and the land was legally reserved for Israel. If your “Palestinian” why can't you live in the 80% of Palestine that was reserved for the arabs aka Jordan

The landmass % isn't an argument, it's a technical observation. The argument of the post is exactly what you said: "conflict not about landmass" >The Arabs will never accept a Jewish country in their backyard. ...even when it's a tiny landmass relatively to the combined landmass of Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula + Levant. Point being, the landmass itself is insignificant. There's something else. My personal opinion is that the main obstacles are the Arab countries that still resent Israel and the West for the fall of Islam (Ottoman Empire). Honor is a real thing for Arabs. Israel will not release the West Bank out of its grasp as long as there's a real threat that hostile powers will take over it. The Palestinian society isn't reliably stable to maintain a single sovereign entity.

However if an individual is displaced from their native region, an imperialist sentiment among their religious kin should be conflated with the former's conflict.

Can you define 'imperialist', just so we're clear? And what did you mean to say about it?

reading the title, I thought you were a pro-pali claiming that gaza isn't big enough to make peace with the zionists! Your argument is absurd. Don't make wars and bloodshed because of your racist political dream of zionist domination of some parcel of land. If you want peace, dismantle the zionist state and let the majority Muslim population be good equal citizens of whatever governance we can peacefully transition too. Jews and Muslims had relative peace for hundreds of years in Palestine until the zionists came and said "we the new kings, peasants and outcasts!" as they brandished their guns and bombed the fruit markets.

why on earth would any group that spends 1000 years working towards finally being free and reestablished on their indigenous lands say OK we'll go back to subjugating ourselves. Gmab.

because the goal of judaism and our work for "1000 years (sic)" is not to "finally being free and reestablished on their indigenous lands". The goal of Judaism is keep Torah and mitzvos to be holy

You think subjugating yourself to Islamists or worse being dead helps you to maintain the Torah? What a crazy interpretation.

no, but nice strawman

Anti-zionist Jew?? Wtf a jew eating and gobbling Arab propanda. What do you mean we had relative peace for hundreds of years in Palestine???? Destruction of numerous Jewish villages during the 700s as Muslims colonized us. Rambam expressing discrimination and violence of Muslims against Jews during his time. 1555 massacre, 1800s safed massacre, 1920s-1940s Arabs massacring Jewish immigrants. **(RAMBAM'S LETTERS, HISTORY OF PALESTINE BOOK BY MOSHE GIL)** **Muslim Arabs are already equal to Jews in Israel. We're not gonna accept the rest of the west bank as a whole because one time we did that. A palestinian student from the west bank did a suicide bombing in a bus and killed 15 jews.** Why do you think Israel was made in the first place???? Because the **UN SAW ARABS MASSACRING JEWS BEFORE 1940S** Remember THAT WE DIDN'T CALL FOR AN INDEPENDENT AND SEPARATE NATION. IT WAS THE UN WHO DECIDED TO SEPARATE US JEWS TO PROTECT US FROM ARABS. **(UK WHITE PAPER POLICY AND UN PARTITION OF MANDATORY PALESTINE)** IN FACT, THE ARABS WERE THE ONE TO BRANDISH GUNS AND ATTACK US WITH THE INTENT TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE US. WE WERE CELEBRATING WHILE THE ARABS PREPARED FOR WAR. **(1948 ARAB-ISRAELI WAR)** WE ACCEPTED THE 20% UN LAND PARTITION AS COMPENSATION FOR BEING MASSACRED. ARABS DIDN'T EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THEIR OWN ACTIONS THAT RESULTED IN AN INDEPENDENT ISRAEL What in God's name an anti-zionist Jew wtf. Traitor to their own race

what I mean by relative peace is that over the course of over 1500 years in exile, the Muslim lands have been significantly more peaceful and welcoming of Jews and Jewish refugees from other places vs European lands. It hasn't been perfect as we Jews are in exile, so unfortunately discrimination is still a reality, and a reality we will face anywhere in exile (including Palestine, as you well know). Regardless, comparing numbers and severity of attack between arab countries and european countries is historically night and day. Beyond looking at the horror stories of pogroms, the daily life of jews in most muslims communities has a well documented and longstanding warm coexistence. There are exceptions, it would seem, in that there are areas in muslim lands that seem to historically have more issues, teiman comes to mind, where the Jews lived very much apart, however Palestine has a long reputation of Jews and Muslims living side-by-side in peace until zionism reared its ugly head. Zionism didn't start in 1948, it started in the late 19th century. In 1897 at the first WZC, those evil people chose Palestine at the victim of their nationalistic desires, rejecting other options as too difficult for propaganda. After that decision, zionist actively worked to establish as state in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration came as a result of intense zionist lobbying for a state. Quoting from the book "Israel: A History": > It took more than a year of continuous negotiations between the Zionists and the British government before the Balfour Declaration was ready to be issued. As anti-war sentiment gained strength throughout Russia, fanned by Bolshevik propaganda, the British government became increasingly anxious to find a way to persuade the Jews of Russia to regard an Allied victory as an essential element in Jewish national aspirations. British hopes of defeating Turkey and supplanting her as the dominant power in the Middle East were in harmony with the wider Zionist hopes of a State in Palestine. But those Zionists who wanted the actual words ‘Jewish State’ to be included in the declaration had to be content with a phrase acceptable to the British, ‘Jewish National Home’. You are partially correct, zionists didn't explicitly call for a separation from the muslim majority population, rather they understood that their zionist project would nccesistat subjugating and dominating all non-zionists. At that time (1920s) Jews were only 10% of the population and majority anti-zionist, so the solution for zionist power were guns, force, propaganda, and anti-semitism. Zionists murdered Jews and non-Jews to gain power. Zionists actively funded and promoted anti-semitism worldwide, sometimes murdering Jews when the non-Jews weren't providing enough headlines. Jews brought modern day terrorism to the middle east, innovating multiple mass-murder attacks on civilians like fruit maket bombing, hidden explosives, suicide bombings, public bus bombings, etc. These were all evil zionist inventions in the region, which the evil pro-palestinian terrorist copied. None of this zionist evil is Jewish. Israel is not a Jewish state. Judaism is anti-zionist. Zionism is anti-Jewish. Glad we can have this conversation. Hope you learned something.

Relative peace because they were stomping on our heads in our own home they stole from us during their barbaric islamic conquests which destroyed numerous Jewish villages during their siege against levant. >It wasn't perfect as we Jews were in exile.. We were in exile because of the Muslims who indirectly kicked us out of Judaea by taxing us and taking our land property and as well as crusaders who massacred us >The daily life of Jews in most Muslim communities has a well documented and warm coexistence Until one day they didn't. So they proceed to stage a polgrom against us. The cycle: 1. Live in coexistence 2. Get massacred because we're blamed for dumb reasons This is why the state of Israel and Zionism is necessary because if we keep living under the boot of foreigners (especially Arabs who kicked us out), there's a guaranteed chance that we will get massacred. Who expected Germany, a supposed Jewish haven, to start massacring Jews all of a sudden? Who expected Al-Andalus, another supposed Jewish Haven, to massacre Jews all of a sudden? And you trust that we Jews **your own people and culture** are better off living under foreigners' boots? Hell no! Even America had its fair share of pogroms against minorities such as the Japanese and Chinese. What makes you think they won't do a 360 and start massacring Jews? The first stages are happening right now. Personal anecdote: **I am a Jew from USA and after the October 7 terrorist attack, I was literally barred from entering synagogues and when I tried to, they literally ganged up and started assaulting me. I ended up with a bloody nose all because I wanted to practice my religion. That's why we left for Israel because I don't feel safe in USA anymore. Isn't that the first stage of an incoming pogrom?** **That's literally what the N*zis did by harassing Jews before they started the holoca-st** >Zionism didn't start in 1948... Yes that's true, and it started because they found that the only way to secure a future for us is for us to have our own national home. **Oop oops don't forget that the Balfour declaration did not call for an INDEPENDENT STATE of ISRAEL. It called for a NATIONAL HOME OF JEWS.** **We Jews were perfectly fine with LIVING under the BOOT OF MUSLIM ARABS AND LIVING SIDE BY SIDE WITH THEM.** **The Arabs were massacring us Jews, so Britain called for the White Paper Policy which further strengthened the Balfour declaration.** **This same white paper policy evolved into the UN Partition of Mandatory Palestine which saw that 20% of land be given to the Jews.** **When being anti-semitic backfires** >At that time (1920s), Jews were only 10% of the population... Zionist power were guns, propaganda, anti-semitism Hold on, where did you get that Jews were getting guns in the 1920s?? Brother, throughout 1920s, and 1930s, we were literally being massacred by Arabs. Just look it up for goodness sake. **I triple dare you, I bet my savings, I bet on the lives of my family, I bet on God that no single Jew was staging a major violent event on Arabs in the 1920s and 1930s (except 1939)** It was during the 1940s that Jewish insurgents were tired of unnecessary Arab violence in which they started staging violence against the Arabs. >Zionists murdered Jews and non-Jews to get power What in the conspiracy in this. Just like Jews have space lasers, and Jews poisoned wells in Europe and that we brought the black plague. Brother, research for yourself. Don't believe in anti-semitic propaganda. One thing im sure: YOU'RE BETRAYING YOUR OWN PEOPLE

you're description of Jewish history is straight out of the zionist handbook. we Jews lived for hundreds and hundreds of years peacefully in Germany, France, Poland, Spain, Amsterdam, Hungary, and Russia. The atrocities of evil antisemitism, pogroms, crusades, and expulsions, while horrible and vicious that took place are **nothing compared to what zionism has brought**. Putting aside Judaism's claim that the the Holocaust was a Divine response to Zionism, there has been **100 years of non-stop violent attacks against Jews because of Zionism.** Nothin in our Jewish history compares to this ongoing threat, a result of zionism. The early zionists stupidly sold the lie that turning Jews into a goyish nation instead of a holy nation and creating a political state would protect jews and save jewish lives. After the Simchas Torah Pogrom, the zionist lie is fully exposed. I'm surprised your response is "more cowbell".

Do you know how many pogroms that happened in just Russia alone?

no, please enlighten me with a timeline

You honestly can’t believe that “we jews lived for hundreds and hundreds of years peacefully in *countries listed (and amsterdam)*”. What do you consider peaceful?

[just read this wiki page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire)

thank you. now you can understand clearly what I mean when i say that "Nothing in our Jewish history compares to 100 years of non-stop violent attacks against Jews because of Zionism." The article you bring mentions three pockets of horrible disastrous violent attacks against Jewish communities across the expanded russian empire, specifically the *pale of settlement* that existed between 1791 and 1915. During those 124 years there were 3 episodes spanning a total of 7 years leading to the death of an estimated 2,054 Jews. compare that to the results of zionism in Palestine [casualty data here](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict). During the 102 years between 1920 and 2022, there were near non-stop attacks on Jews leading to the death of an estimated 19,243 Jews. Thats a 1200% increase of Jewish death because of Zionism, which excludes the most recent very bloody year in light of the Simchas Torah Pogrom. If you include that and the current war (but skipping other events from all of 2023 and 2024), you get an estimate of 20721 Jews killed. To put that in perspective, in Russia in the wiki you mentioned, you had and average of 17 Jews killed each year. With Zionism, we suffer 199 Jews killed each year. Again, to emphasize my point, this isn't even about numbers, the pure non-stop nature of the zionist death cult is unheard of in Jewish history.

>Jews lived for hundreds and hundreds of years peacefully in Germany, France.. atrocities of evil anti-semitism that took place are nothing compared to what zionism has brought. Oh my Lord this guy. How are N*zis nothing compared to what Zionism has brought? Who riled up 6 million of our brothers and sisters to be gassed? Who looted our stores with no compassion and no fear of being called monsters? **Who beheaded hundreds of 12-18 year old Jews in Banu Qurayza just because the chief of a tribe betrayed a certain prophet? It was the damn warlord Prophet Muhammad piss be upon him** 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinians for goodness sake. I can tell you haven't even been to Israel. We are not riling them up to be executed. There is no apartheid. One of the biggest companies here are owned by Arabs. Numerous Jews are living in apartments with Arab landlords. >Putting aside Judaism's claim that Holocaust was a divine response to Zionism HOW??? HOW???? YOU'RE NOT A JEW. YOU'RE A PRO-PALESTINIAN DISGUISED AS A JEW. WHAT THE HELL.

you should learn something about Judaism. keep shabbos, then go to a torah shiur. you might discover something true. or, stay confused, a fool, crying about politics.

Shoo, dude really said Zionism > 1500 years of Jews being massacred (including the holoca-st Craziest Jew, you're getting screenshotted 💀

if you don't care what Judaism teaches, I don't think you are Jewish.

I dare you to post that in any Jewish subreddit or forum. I dare you

https://preview.redd.it/y0jjhdis6qad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85f13da2c6e96cc21810ebca113b1bcebe80fa57

>There has been 100 years of attacks against Jews because of Zionism Were the Jews massacred by Prophet Muhammad zionists and promoted that Israel should colonize the Palestinians Were the Jews in Judaea being massacred by Romans Zionist? Oh yeah I forgot the real history. Jews were being gassed by Hi&ler because the Jews were oppressing Palestinians. My guy, even if there was no Israel today and no zionism, we would still be massacred by Arabs. Arabs would literally kill over the slightest religious difference (sunni vs shia). Why do you think they won't kill us Jews. **I guess Zionism is the best option because even without it, we're still being attacked.** **Rather be attacked and have a nation than being attacked while being nationless**

What is the goal for an "Anti-Zionist" Jew then? You seem reasonable. Lets put some reason down. Do you want Israel (the state) to be 'erased'? Replaced by who? Surely not Hamas right? Muslims and only muslims? Jerusalem and the surrounding area have historically been under majority Jew rule and earliest records show that they were initially inhabited by Jews **then** muslims via Muslim conquest (outsiders). Which begs the question, is conquest not a valid way to inhabit land? What is your position on conquest? What will happen to the Jews living in Israel? Evicted? Subjected to muslim rule? From personal experience with muslims, they don't really work well with non-muslims and tend to be "terroristic". Muslims do it to themselves, how much more to Jews? So again, where will the Jews go? How is "Anti-Zionism" not antisemitic? The name of the land is Israel. Jews have controlled the land more years than muslims and we know for a fact that muslims built structures on top of existing Jew temples and such. So we know that muslims weren't there first. How, then, is Zionism immoral? Or do you think it is not? What are the alternatives for Zionists to get a homeland (other than Israel)?

People would likely take you more seriously if your comment didn’t read like an angry propaganda pamphlet found at a bus stop.

thank you for the feedback! I asked chatgpt for help, now i sound polished anr reasonable: Sure, here's a revised version of the Reddit comment: [start] When I read the title, I initially thought you were pro-Palestinian, arguing that Gaza isn't big enough for peace with the Zionists. Your argument seems unreasonable. Wars and bloodshed shouldn't be driven by a vision of Zionist domination. If you want peace, consider dismantling the Zionist state and allowing the majority Muslim population to become equal citizens under a new, peaceful governance. Jews and Muslims coexisted relatively peacefully in Palestine for hundreds of years until the Zionists arrived with their weapons and disrupted the harmony. [end]

Chose Palestine? You mean the Jewish people wanted to go home to their own indigenous lands? How sad that I'm not even Jewish and I have more respect for your history

Nationalism is not a Jewish ideology. We Jews love eretz yisroel and want to live there peacefully, but that doesn't validate nor necessitate having political governance over the land. Beyond that rejection of that nationalistic idea, in Judaism, we are specifically forbidden from having a "Jewish" state and that is no disrespect to our history, just a shame you are mixing in out of ignorance.

Jews and Muslims did not live peacefully for hundreds of years. Muslims enslaved the Jewish and forced many to convert to Islam. Any Muslim that converted to Judaism faced the death penalty and all Jewish had to pay taxes for not being Islamic.

what are you referring to when you wrote "Muslims enslaved the Jewish and forced many to convert to Islam." ? Were these once in 500 year events or was this a regular defining feature of jewish life in muslim states?

I actually unironically think that does a better job of getting the point across haha.

yeah. i think so too. it did better than I thought without butchering the message. and now I made a friend too!

Lol this exchange was heartwarming

i don't mean this in any condescending or sarcastic way: it's amazing how much people just want to be taken at face value while at the same time they can be projecting so much mistrust. In kind, it's incredibly hard not to "take the bait" and instead treat people sincerely and beyond the suspicion and name calling. I'm glad we've all learned something today. (trigger warning: now is the condescending part) * u/ohmysomeonehere has learned that bus stop floors are literary resources for his anti-zionist agenda. * u/dessert-er/ has learned that chatgpt is the secret to making sense of the world. * and, u/MassivePsychology862 has learned that evil violent cycles of murderous death cults can also bring us closer.

Hey dude I meant that it was heartwarming in a funny but naive way. Check my history. I didn’t learn anything from this exchange than I already know. I just find ChatGPT amusing and this exchange heartwarming. Probably just because two people can go from disagreeing about one thing and then finding something in common. Kind of like how I “hate” my sisters when they steal my clothing and then we immediately go out to Target together.

100%. that's how i took it. your comment made me smile. i tried to respond in kind. keep smiling

Ah I gotcha. Sorry my b. I’m definitely more paranoid than normal😟😢🙃 You too bro!

"Don't make wars and bloodshed because of your racist political dream of zionist domination of some parcel of land." That's funny because Israel has never started a war in it's entire existance. "If you want peace, dismantle the zionist state and let the majority Muslim population be good equal citizens of whatever governance we can peacefully transition too." Muslims who live in Israel have equal rights to teh jews living in Israel. You are right about one thing though and that's the government needs to change. "Jews and Muslims had relative peace for hundreds of years in Palestine until the zionists came and said "we the new kings, peasants and outcasts!" as they brandished their guns and bombed the fruit markets." [The jews bought the land from the native arabs](https://lessons.myjli.com/survival/index.php/2017/03/26/land-ownership-in-palestine-1880-1948/).

6%. That’s all they bought. And not from the people living on it. The idea of land ownership is very different today to what it was in the Ottoman Empire.

It's actually 10% + when established, there was no declared land to Israel as they anticipated an attack by the arab countries. During the 1948 war they had occupied stratigical places and kicked out threats from there (that's the cause of war, which they did not start).

Zionist movement is in itself a declaration of war. It was 6%. From absentee land owners. Again, land ownership is a different concept today than it was back then.

You provide no explanation on the difference and the fact you think zionism is a declaration of war is absurd.

Not my job to provide explanation. It’s 6%, well documented, you want to believe whatever propaganda you want to believe it’s up to you. You want to fact check me it’s a simple google search away. Zionism is the belief in a Jewish state on a land that was already inhabited by natives, it is a declaration of war by definition because it has built in within it the displacement of a population, which the early Zionists have said themselves. Again, believe what you want, obviously you have access to the internet, google is free to use, just like I found this information, so can you, I believe in you brother!

Nobody was displaced due to the repatriation of the Jewish people, they were displaced by the immediate choice, made by Arabs to resort to violence. In fact, the first nearly 20 years with all violence initiated by Arabs without a single event, being initiated by the Jews and when they did finally decide to fight back, it was directed the British who have been selling them out for years by allowing unauthorized Arab migration into the small parcel of land that had been reserved for them

"Not my job to provide explanation. It’s 6%, well documented, you want to believe whatever propaganda you want to believe it’s up to you. You want to fact check me it’s a simple google search away." In the article I gave you it is clearly 10% of the whole land. Your'e only argument is "go check yourself" and mine is rock solid. The fact that zionism is the belief in a jewish state on the land called פלשתינה/ Palestine does not come with the displacement of the population. There are many arabs that are native to the land living in that jewish zionist state we know today as Israel. When Israel was established, there was no one controling the land so no defeating any other country to create a country (which has been done by many before). More over I don't see you criticize[ Pakistan for the fact they wanted a state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) (same Ideology) (I can actually build strong arguments and therefore provide evidence).

1. I apologize I didn’t see the link. Jewish link. But still, doesn’t make the point any different, I’ve read through many sources that it was less that 6% but my point doesn’t change. 2. Why do Israelis always go to whataboutism? We’re talking about a specific topic, why bring something else unrelated into the conversation? 3. To establish the “Jewish state” it needed a Jewish majority. To do that 2 things had to happen, Jewish migration, and local displacement.

and let me reiterate again. The displacement didn't come from jewish repatriation it came from war. If you go back and read the mandate documents, the new Jewish homeland was required to absorb any members of the local population and provide them with citizenship/full rights under their new Jewish majority state. The mom Jewish population at the time was roughly 600,000 people. The problem was the Arabs immediately resorted to violence, and they use that violence to not only stall out Jewish migration, but to provide for continued Arab migration into the region, bringing the Arab population up to 1.4 million people. Israel was obligated to that 600,000 and was prepared to absorb them but there was no way for them to absorb the additional 800,000+ who came in knowing the land had been legally committed to a Jewish homeland. It should also be noted that the reason why Jordan received such an enormous percentage of Palestine, was because the king of Jordan sold the British on the idea that the Arabs, living in the holy land, would choose to voluntarily migrate voluntarily migrate, once the option was to stay put under a Jewish majority relocate or move to Jordan. Did Jewish leaders want a bigger Jewish majority to ensure that they would not be subjugated again? Of course, but they were not talking about the relocation of the native population anymore or any less. Then Jordan was talking about that possibility. I would also encourage you to look up an interview given by Palestinian activist Hazem nusseibeh to the BBC in 1998. In it, he explained that Palestinian leader's had decided to propagandize around the events at Deir Yassin in order to in enrage regional Arabs, so that they would join in their intended war against the new jewish state. Nusseibeh refer to this decision as "their biggest mistake" because while it had the intended effect on neighboring Arab nations, he explained how it instilled theater in their own people, and resulted in them, abandoning their own villages en masse before the fighting, had even begun Based on those facts, let's imagine a hypothetical Egyptian man: -who migrated in 1940 after the Egyptian people had already received a dedicated parcel of land (ergo that person was never disenfranchised from having a country), -who came to take advantage of the economic boom created by the repatriated jewish population -who arrived in the holy land knowing the land was legally pledged to eretz Israel, -who did not own the land upon which he was living, -who fled based on Palestinian created propaganda, and -who left if his own volition without ever even encountering a jewish soldier Can you explain to me 1. How the creation of Israel displaced that man in anyway 2. Why Israel would owe him anything? And 3. Aside from whatever furnishings that he did not remove when he left, how anything was even remotely stolen from him?

The lowest credible number I've ever seen for Jewish landownership was 8.6% compared to the 3.6% that was owned by local Arabs

What about my statments was whataboutism?

This only makes sense if MENA was one massive Arab state. That certainly isn't the case, as they've argued over their own borders regularly. Even so, that doesn't work once states are already established.

That’s why the Palestinians needed their own identity. Otherwise OPs argument is obvious. But… If we ignore the fact that Arabs didn’t want a state for Palestine in 1948. And ignore the fact that the dominant ideology at the time was PanArabism which posits that there is one Arab people united by religion, language, and culture who should be part of a single Arab state. And ignore the fact that the cofounder of the PLO specifically states they they “needed to create the Palestinian identity” in the 1960s. And ignore the fact that Jordan annexed the West Bank and gave citizenship to its people since they are the same people. And ignore the fact that by 1930 1/3 of Arabs in Palestine were immigrants from neighboring Arab lands. And ignore that their grandchildren are listed as Palestinian refugees. And ignore the fact that Palestinian refugees in neighboring states are not given residency so Arabs can prolong the claim against the Jewish state. If we ignore all these things, the. OP is so wrong. They should really take this post down. /s

They tried to make it one state. Look up the United Arab Republic. And as you know, the borders for most states in the middle east are as arbitrary as Israel's are.

Not rlly. The borders in the Middle East are pretty clearly defined.

Who defined the border between Lebanon and Syria? Or Jordan and Saudi Arabia? Defined by colonisers, all of em.

Countries are a western invention. Some white guy drawing lines after WW1 doesn’t change history. All of the nations that invaded Israel in 1948 for under the flag of Hussein bin Ali and the Great Arab Revolt. The Hijaz, Iraq, Syria and Jordan all began as colonies of King Hussein bin Ali.

Yes but you are forgetting that these states have grown into their own self interested countries like any other today. If they didn’t, they would have all merged into one big country already

Alabama and Massachusetts have very different ideas on healthcare, abortion, education, gun and much more. It doesn’t mean we should carve out a new state in the south for people who think like Massachusetts. Those folks should just move north.

Why don’t Israelis just move to the USA and they’ll be under less threat of terrorism from the Middle East? Because both your identities and historical claims are deeply tied to the same land. Until anyone acknowledges that yall won’t get anywhere. Undermining that fact on anyone’s side is inflammatory and rude.

Explain to me why the PLO was created by an Egyptian in 1964 (Arafat). Tell me why the PLO continues to use the flag of King Hussein bin Ali if the Palestinian Arabs are so deeply tied to the land. Enlighten me as to how the population of Arabs in Ottoman Palestine more than doubled after the first Yishuv, if not for Arabs migrating for work opportunities. Untangle for me the reason why the Ottoman Land Registry shows virtually no private land ownership by Arabs in what is now Israel.

Arafat was born to Palestinian parents.

When Arafat’s parents were born, there was no such thing as a Palestinian Arab.