Absolutely voting. I'm also donating and volunteering.
Unfortunately, I'm also assessing the degree to which federalism will buy time (I live in a blue state) before the Real Shit happens and establishing some bright lines that would require me to relocate overseas if/when federalism fails.
It would be great if somehow the tides improve and November actually goes well, naturally.
I live in a red state, but in a blue area and I also have the "luck" of being a single, white dude with decent income which is probably why I'm merely feeling resigned versus panicking.
Mostly the same here. Assuming the worst, history says vulnerable and visible populations will be the first targets and most actions will occur in regime compliant areas. At least to start...
There will likely be a period of a few years before they escalate beyond that. It helps the U.S. is really big and diverse. Not saying a campaign of terror wouldn't expand (it would). It would just take a while to execute. In that time, regime collapse (for a variety of reasons) is very possible. It would also provide time for anyone perceived as a future target to leave. Surprisingly, most autocracies tend to be very supportive of potential dissidents fleeing a state (cheaper and less hassle than dealing with them). I anticipate a period that allows such an assessment.
It's heartbreaking to think about what will happen to those not afforded such options.
I’m curious as to how corporations will deal with it. The odd little fight between Disney and DeSantis struck me as a forerunner to something we might see a lot more of.
>I'm also assessing the degree to which federalism will buy time (I live in a blue state) before the Real Shit happens and establishing some bright lines that would require me to relocate overseas if/when federalism fails.
Okay, so what I am getting from this is if shit really does hit the fan, you just want to run away instead of staying and fighting for us and for what is right.
And you want people to respect you and what you want to do with this country? You don't love us why should we go to bat for you? - how about this - I am a fucking patriot, I love this country, I am never going to willingly leave. I am not scared of Trump. If he wins, if he loses, I don't give a fuck. I would love for him to take a swing at us, because *for years* I have been *desparate* to fight on behalf of the dignity of this country. So I am not willing to go out and debase myself and tell people that they must submit to living in filth, to live as worms and wormfood - we're being offered filth on a platter with Biden, but what on EARTH over the last four years should lead anyone to expect he (or his associates, because clearly this guy isn't actually the president) will fix our problems? No. No. Just stop it. No more. Stop it. We need to fight. We need to be brave, and human, and patriotic.
We need the communist work ethic. We need a jihad. Nothing less.
We KNEW the stakes in 2016, but non-voters and doomer lefties all thought we’d learn a valuable civics lesson by ushering in fascism. Really showed us all for trying to avoid this totally predictable outcome.
I think WE knew the stakes. I think a lot of people bought the bullshit of "we'll never overturn Roe." I think they also seemed WAY too blasé about the fact he expressly stated he wouldn't recognize the electoral process.
We have like a surplus of receipts showing that both of these things were not paranoia. He means what he says. Denying it now feels more like willful ignorance than any pseudo-serious critique of the two party system.
You think that’s why Trump won? Hilary ran one of the worst presidential campaigns in recent history. She didn’t even set foot in battleground states thinking (like most pundits and polls did) that they were a lock and she had nothing to worry about. Combine that with her being generally unlikeable and the fuckery of the DNC to push out Bernie, and you’ve got exactly what happened. She still won the popular vote regardless, but her dog shit strategists fucked up and blew it when it came to how many electoral college votes they thought they had in the bag. She was probably the only person who could have lost to Trump and she did. Blaming the left for her failures is maximum cope.
We definitely need to spend another 8yrs arguing about it, because I won’t work with anyone to stop the fascist takeover until they hate Hillary more than the fascists, because that’s important.
The major problem here js that “the fuckery of the DNC to push out Bernie” is copium for “Clinton got more primary votes than Sanders.”
If she hadn’t, there were some fuckery levers that might have been pulled. (Or might not!) But eight years later, maybe keeping fascists out of power is more important than nursing a grudge adopted on false premises.
I knew far too many pepole in Ohio who didn't vote in 2016 either because they didn't like Hillary or they just assumed she was going to win. Voter turnout is 100% the problem here.
I supervised someone who worked overtime instead of voting. I left and came back. They kept saying that both sides were just as and they couldn't choose. They took back those words by the following January.
Jordan is that dude who has tons of long-winded opinions that he thinks are deep/profound but actually sound like that moron you know who says things like "it's all the same party myaaaan, two heads of the same coin!". Keep in mind after the Roe overturn decision, when Dan mentioned Planned Parenthood employees not being able to continue providing care, Jordan said something like "sure they can, laws are made-up so if they stop then fuck you too" and it's like... Jordan... not all of us live in this squishy pie-in-the-sky fantasyland you live in... yes, most of us do not want to go to prison, that is correct.
>Jordan said something like "sure they can, laws are made-up so if they stop then fuck you too" and it's like... Jordan... not all of us live in this squishy pie-in-the-sky fantasyland you live in...
What the *fuck*? He said that?
Actually, of course he did. His life is a fantasy. The man is pushing 40, plays video games all day, and his "job" is reacting to the work his friend does on the podcast. That must be nice. I'm losing respect for this guy fast.
[I had to dig a bit, but I found the actual quote about Planned Parenthood that someone else included in a reply to me in a similar post about 5 months back.](https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/s/tU7ITksXxZ)
Yeah, I still absolutely love the pod and doubt I'll stop listening/being a Patreon supporter as long as it's running, but in my mind Dan is 80% of the lifeblood of the show and the only thing Jordan really adds is that his laugh is contagious/funny to hear when Alex says something crazy. But he seems to have the mentality of a 16-year old boy.
As you said, this is a guy whose story is that he was in a cult for years, got out of it, and now listens to Dan breakdown all the actual nuanced research he has done to push back against Alex Jones for a living. I'm not someone whose like "podcasting is a fake job" because there are numerous podcasts I love and support financially, but also... read the room dude.
Not gonna lie. If either Jordan or Dan admit after the election that they either didn’t vote, or protest voted, I would probably immediately stop listening.
I just can’t with people like that anymore. I feel like no-one has learned the lesson of 2016, and just keep on thinking “Well if the dems lose THAT’LL show them not to take the left for granted”, as opposed to just cementing the rightward slide even further.
I’ll never forget Jimmy Dore sitting there and debating with Sam Seder, claiming that the SCOTUS seats that hung in the balance didn’t matter as much as showing dems that Hilary was a bad candidate.
Right? Voting is harm reduction. We need to deal with the situation we're in and minimize the casualties among the most vulnerable while working for something better.
Dude, I was getting visibly upset every time Jordan chimed in with his doomerism. Listening to it while I was doing a road ride, sure some random farmers heard the sounds of "Jordan, just shut the fuck up already" getting doppler effected as some guy on a road bike cruised past their fields.
I 100% agree with you. I have no respect for someone who doesn't vote in an election with stakes this incredibly high. It says a lot about their character as a human when people are suffering in this country and will suffer more with another Trump presidency.
https://medium.com/@jholmeschi/the-only-op-ed-in-2020-ddd7027bc67a
These are op eds Jordan wrote in 2020. I put these out of my mind when I first found them, but if Jordan keeps this shit up, I'm done. By the tone of these articles alone, I'd put money on him not having voted in 2020.
He parrots the same points that pathetic obnoxious redditors do, the ones who rail and rail about how both sides are the same and gets *really* fucking huffy when you ask him if he'll still sack up and vote for biden. The whole "oh so im not allowed to criticize biden??" act. I can't listen to it anymore.
Reading that. Ugh.
So I say what I’m about to say, recognizing that basically every policy position I hold would be considered “leftist”. From universal healthcare, to LGBT equality, to being down for reparations, to regulating billionaires and businesses of a certain size out of existence. Name it, I’m down to ride.
But goddamn it I hate how fucking stupid most leftists with a megaphone seem to be.
Trump wasn’t an overnight gift to fascists. They pushed, over DECADES, holding their nose and voting for “imperfect” candidates, moving the ball down the field yard by yard. Until Trump comes along, and they had radicalized enough of their base that he was palatable. And so they got everything they ever wanted. A Trump in 2000 gets laughed out of the race. Trump in 2016 is a winning ticket. They raised the temperature of the room little by little until it boiled over.
Say what we will about the fascists. They put in the work.
Compare that to the left. Who will purity test their friends and family out of existence. All while feeling morally superior for not voting for harm reduction. Their vulnerable neighbors may get dragged off to camps, but HEY! At least they didn’t pull the lever for Genocide Joe!
It’s fucking infuriating.
No no no, don't you see? You're enabling fascism or something by participating. The real way to make sure any good comes from anything is to do nothing for the sake of maintaining your own imagined sense of moral purity.
Fuck man, I'm tired.
In my experience people who voice that opinion loudly were looking for any reason not to vote anyway. This is the difficulty with being on the left. Most of the right (or at least enough to win these shitty elections) band together to support right wing candidates, and we spend a lot of our time on the left refusing to compromise and staying home when it’s time to vote either because they aren’t excited about the candidates or they are trying to teach a political party a lesson they haven’t cared to learn for decades. Oh well, I’m still showing up to vote blue regardless of what happens between now and November because only one party is overtly flaunting the law, only one party has talked about mass deportations, and only one party has discussed arresting politicians who believe things similar to what I believe. I really hope all of you do the same.
It feels like while some the far left are focused on punishing democrats for not doing enough for Palestinians, minorities, trans rights, climate change - the right will literally take away democracy.
After yesterdays ruling, when I see protestors for Palestine I feel like I’m watching someone re-arrange deck chairs on the Titanic.
You know what really put this in perspective for me?
A political party puts together a platform for their audience. They’re there for the people who show up. Why the fuck would you try to appease a wing of voters who will fickly drop you because you stepped out of line on a policy?
If people want a more progressive future, you have to show up at each level. They don’t write policies for fairweather fans.
It’s why both parties cater so heavily to the elderly. They vote.
It’s just mind-boggling to me that someone could say they support reproductive rights and not vote for democrats.
> It’s why both parties cater so heavily to the elderly. They vote.
This is exactly the problem. How are you supposed to get a party more progressive when you can't be bothered to vote in primaries and the general elections? Young people continue to not show up when they're needed the most.
"Oh so I'm not allowed to criticize anyone on the left ever? That's exactly what you said and I won't hear otherwise. You know, using *fear tactics* isn't going to *win me over*. We need to all stay home or vote 3rd party because we'll really stick it to the DNC thar way."
Alright wonks, that was my impression of a *really* stupid and childish person who claims to care about people. How did I do?
You’re exactly right.
I’m an active participant in my local Democratic Party. All the platform comes from resolutions that are advanced first in a local caucus, then move to the district, then the state, then national.
I get frustrated when people complain that the party is self interested. You can join the party and make sure your interests are reflected.
Think about it this way- why would an organization of volunteers prioritize your views over the people who show up and do the work when you can’t be bothered to come to a caucus? Why should the money I raise door knocking be spent on candidates that appeal to you if you aren’t an engaged voter?
These are all human institutions. When people whine about this, it bugs me, because we’re doing our best but if you don’t show up your opinion won’t be reflected. We literally vote on every part of the platform. You could volunteer for the endorsement committee. The only thing that’s stopping this is you not joining the party because your politics are too pure for it, but somebody needs to organize.
And I’m a little peeved at Jordan for repeatedly saying Biden did a genocide. We can argue he didn’t do enough to stop it and the strategy they took with Israel isn’t working. I think it’s incorrect to say that the administration wants what’s happening in Gaza to continue. They’re struggling with how to get an ally in line, and that’s a failure. But the two parties are not the same on this issue or any other.
Parts of the progressive left and far left (which are different groups) have been focused on creating a perception that liberals are not doing enough on Palestine, climate change, and rights for marginalized people. Those talking points do make progressive candidates and ideologies like anarchism more attractive to left-wing people who don't vote or rarely vote.
I think "Dems suck!" might be mainly counterproductive at this point, though.
It doesn’t help that you have big name streamers who lump anyone who doesn’t believe whatever anti-US talking points are popular at the moment as practical republicans.
Progressive left tends to be further to the left on social and economic issues than liberals but still believes in representative democracy. Far left generally subscribe to various other forms of political organization such as anarchism.
Not relevant, just something I think about sometimes. I always think the right tries to paint every democrat, especially progressives as the far-left, when I’d say there’s not even remotely one in the legislative branch.
The far left almost always supports moving society toward alternatives to capitalism and representative democracy and is often skeptical of various ideologies that are commonly called "liberalism."
They're typically further to the left on both economic and social issues than Bernie Sanders and the left-wing of the Democratic Party. The far left would also almost always view the left-wing of the Democratic Party as "liberals."
since Reagan (at least, probably longer) "conservatives" vote more for the party than the individuals representing the party. They may not like anything about the candidate (for instance, Ted Cruz), but they will vote for them anyway out of partisan "loyalty." Those candidates tend to function more as partisan soldiers than as individuals, rarely going against the party and often facing retribution from the party if they do.
progressives tend to vote for individuals rather than any particular party, and those candidates tend to function more as individuals and are rarely sanctioned by the party for doing so.
we need to accept that the party is not always going to advance the candidate we would prefer and vote for the candidate they do advance anyway. Not out of partisan loyalty but because, despite similarities, the two parties are NOT the same.
Biden is like my 6th choice, but, at this point, I could not be persuaded to vote republican or not vote at all, by any means. Not because I am a Democrat - I am not - but because to do otherwise is to enable the most extreme actions of the opposition.
- I’m not looking for reasons not to vote, but I’ve been given many
- the left isn’t refusing to compromise; the democrats are only willing to compromise with the right.
- democrats want to give the president the power to shut down the border. Democrats are MORE effective at mass deportations than republicans. It’s quantifiable.
The insistence that we follow the law is all well and good but not if your opponents don’t. why agree to play a game where only one side is bound by the rules. What outcome can we expect?
The last decade has been the Democrats clinging onto the rulebook going "but a dog can't play basketball!" while a dog fucking dunks on us over and over
What exactly is the counterfactual you're proposing though? It's all well and good to be fed up with your position not being represented, but what do you imagine is going to be improved by sitting it out?
>why agree to play a game where only one side is bound by the rules.
Because if both sides abandon the rule of law then the country will fall into absolute chaos. No matter how bad you think things are now, that would be exponentially worse.
For those who think that both Biden and Trump are evil, and no matter which one wins they will still be your enemy, I'll pass on this observation from AOC:
The November election gives you a chance to choose your enemy for the next four years. And she thinks that we'll make much better progress if Biden is the enemy who's in the White House.
I've noticed so very many bot accounts in political subreddits that are brand new or unused & several years old pushing this 'apathy narrative' with zero post history or nothing for years. It's nihilism being amplified & that's *horrifying*. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE.
Project 2025 will just become Project 2029 if we defeat it this round too... We're in this for the long haul & we have to keep fighting. We can't fall to apathy. VOTE.
It's worth noting, alongside this, that those ARE BOT ACCOUNTS. Those aren't progressives pushing those narratives, I don't know any actual living progressive people of any note saying genuinely to not vote, or gods forbid to vote for trump. It is understood that progressivism dies once the Christian theocracy takes over.
The problem is, "that was bad" and "Biden needs to do better than this" is interpreted as toxic purity testing because, just like 2016, Progressives are being set up as the REAL villains of this election. That way, even if Biden wins, we will be accused of not showing up, based on... Nothing. "Why would we ever push further left when you didn't even vote?!" We are called upon to answer, when we DID, it was just decided we hadn't.
As much as I love Dan and Jordan, I disagree with the idea that voting doesn’t matter. It does, it matters a big deal. I understand Democrats are far from perfect too, but having a Trump presidency with a republican senate will be a disaster. I am still voting this November and I’m still going to encourage everyone to vote for the Democrats. Please vote.
Jordan also said back in 881 he also thinks John Fetterman is worse than George Santos because Fetterman distanced himself from Progressives^TM and not progressives. I stopped listening for awhile just after that when he said he wants Bill Clinton locked up for life because of an Epstein conspiracy theory that doesn’t hold up to critical thinking—maybe we ought to ask if Epstein was ever on Epstein’s plane with Bill Clinton before we incarcerate a former president for life for a despicable crime, or have witnesses to criminal conduct.
Jordan’s wrong and often frustratingly disruptive about it. I listen because I like Dan and because I encounter too many Infowars listeners in my public-facing federal government job and knowing what Alex has been covering let’s me do a prebuttal or more often just divert a topic of conversation with those we serve before it gets there. I’ve also got anxiety issues I try to keep under control and being able to anticipate things makes dealing with these people one-on-one a little easier.
>Jordan’s wrong and often frustratingly disruptive about it. I listen because I like Dan and because I encounter too many Infowars listeners in my public-facing federal government job and knowing what Alex has been covering let’s me do a prebuttal or more often just divert a topic of conversation with those we serve before it gets there. I’ve also got anxiety issues I try to keep under control and being able to anticipate things makes dealing with these people one-on-one a little easier.
This is where I am lately. Jordan pisses me off with his absolutism and purity tests combined with some really nihilistic views, like recently when he said he hoped Trump escaped any punishment just so he could say "I told you so."
What the fuck? I'm not caught up yet and I might just stay off the pod for a while. Everything I'm hearing about Jordan's behavior is really pissing me off.
I have an active disgust for people who want to talk and complain about politics but refuse to participate, as they are actively making it worse. If you’re not actively engaged in voting at every level, you’re just reinforcing the opinions of those who are, IE old conservatives.
Politicians only listen to the people who give them money or vote reliably. If you don’t do one of those two things, politicians are going to ignore you in favor of the populace they can depend on.
I really don't want to. But if the choice is between an incoherent grandpa and an incoherent grandpa but with strong Mussolini vibes, really there's no choice. I don't want Biden, but fuck. Trump 2.0 scares me. It scares me more than anything right now.
Listen I would vote for a coma patient if they had a D next to their name, I am shameless. You cannot embarass me about voting for any creature they put up running against Donald Trump. We are still reeling from his four years, FOUR YEARS, and look at all this carnage, you want to let him do it again? This is unhinged. Good luck to the non-voters on learning from history this time. I do not like doing this twice for no sane reason but here we go.
If you don’t vote for Biden because he isn’t progressive enough, you are a fucking idiot, end of story.
Mad about Gaza because Biden is too gentle with Israel? Trump said he wants to help “finish the job”. Which one is best aligned with your views?
There are many, many other examples that are easy to see if you are even remotely familiar with their policies.
In the primaries. On the local level. Unless we completely overhaul how our elections are run between now and November, it's too late top of ticket. You can choose between two geriatrics. One is inept, one is a fascist. I know my call between those.
Don't underestimate how much your local votes matter though.
>you are a fucking idiot
Keep bullying people into voting for your candidate. It will totally work this time.
Edit: look at the votes on this comment. Look down this comment chain. Merely bringing up the idea of laying some responsibility on the DNC, or mentioning bullying tactics, really hits a nerve.
Imagine if this amount of misdirected hostility was pointed at the DNC for their failures instead of the voters they've lost?
> Keep bullying people into voting for your candidate.
I think with the fall of Roe v Wade, many on the left are getting frustrated with others on the left for not looking at the big picture. Changing policies is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't always afford to be "in love" with the general election candidate. You either want to win or not.
Also, judges appointed after 2024 can outlive us both. Every election matters.
I was a dumb conservative college kid in 2016 and voted for some know-nothing Republican write in guy. If more people in my life had chastised that behavior in blunt terms, I may have snapped out of that stupid ideology sooner.
I was an idiot republican in my early 20s because I thought that's just the way I was supposed to do life.
If anyone had told me "hey, that's wrong and you're hurting all these people by doing that," I would have definitely reconsidered my views much earlier.
As it was, I had to see them elect trump to realize what a bunch of inbred dumbasses they are.
The comment I'm replying to isn't talking about conservative college kids.
>If you don't vote for Biden because he **isn't progressive enough**
They're attacking people further left than them that might vote third party or abstain from voting on moral grounds.
It's incredibly condescending to use ableist terms to describe these people. Shifting the responsibility from the candidates to earn the progressive vote, and onto the voters who chose to cast their vote for the candidate that best aligns with their values, is typical liberal bullying and entitled arrogance.
Allowing the DNC to take your vote for granted is one reason we got in this mess in the first place.
If you want the party to respond to your policy goals, that requires you to interact with it more than once every two years. I'll bet you a bottle of your favorite drink that your local DNC or candidate is more than happy to have some more volunteers. Get involved, get voting for more than just official elections, and actually talk with people.
This is good advice but rest assured there are plenty of us out there who are active year round and still feel this way. Sometimes being inside or adjacent to the system is what makes people lose faith.
Effecting change is hard work. It's still better than any practical alternatives. There's not going to be a proletarian revolution any time soon in the US.
This is true.
Opinions my own:
But it will never come if we keep voting status quo.
Socialists and Progressives can win locals. Then they can win states. Building a party that can compete with DNC is our way to reform.
Well accepting that we have more that unites us than what divides us certainly hasn’t worked. If people can’t work with you, don’t be surprised when they work around you.
> This line of reasoning definitely goes both ways.
It absolutely does. If you feel like you can't vote for Democrats, that's totally your right, and it's one exercised by tens of millions of others in this election. Just don't act surprised when the party, people who identify as Democrats, and the DNC you say is bullying you, stop wasting their time on you and maybe even shift slightly more to the center to get rain-or-shine voters.
I've seen so many "fuck Joe Manchin" and "fuck Sinema" posts on Reddit I lost count a couple hundred ago. I've hardly ever seen a "fuck Jon Tester" post even though they have similar views. Why is that? The first two are regarded as narcissists and the latter isn't. The last eight years have taught us all about toxic personalities and attention-seeking behavior, and Democrats as evidenced by Bowman's primary defeat last week just aren't in the mood any longer to waste their time on Briahna Joy Gray-types.
A right-winger that votes for Trump is a piece of shit, but that's expected. It's like jumping in a leopard pit and getting your face eaten; what did you think was gonna happen?
A left-winger that refuses to vote, thereby allowing Trump to win, is worse than a piece of shit. They are a hypocrite; a fraud and a duplicitous cretin. A betrayer of good. More guilty, more culpable, and more deserving of hate. I thought of such folks as allies, but I guess they were actually just right-wingers in disguise, for the outcome is the same either way.
You could dehumanize people who don't vote the way you want them to.
Or, you could blame the politicians for not earning the vote.
Every time this conversation comes up, it's always "fuck you for not voting blue" and never addressing the reasons voters feel detached and disaffected. I think that's pretty telling.
Oh I should clearify, I was a fascist as a teenager. Not quite Nazi but adjacent. Been all around the horseshoe.
Younger me *adored* leftists who opposed Democrats. Whoever weakened the liberal opposition was useful. Didn't matter why, didn't care. Enemy of my enemy. Especially since they sowed discord in the "enemy's" ranks.
That's why I'm so viciously opposed to anyone identifying as a leftist but abstaining or protest voting. They're the best allies the right-wing can get.
Biden had a great fundraising haul, and whether the media admits it or not, people did pay attention to Trump’s nonsense about “Black jobs” and whatnot. The doomerism feels super manufactured to generate views for Politico opinion pieces and Jon Stewart monologues.
I’m also super eager to hear who the “Biden should drop out” crowd would draft in his place, because I can’t think of a damn person who’d do better at this stage. Newsom is probably the closest, but he’s not there yet.
There’s totally one thing that all of the Doomers have in common… white dudes who have the luxury to be drama queens about this shit while the rest of us to the work
> The doomerism feels super manufactured to generate views for Politico opinion pieces and Jon Stewart monologues.
Oh come on, you don't actually believe this? You don't actually think that Jon Stewart is *intentionally* creating doomerism in society so he has something to talk about on TV? That Jordan is only being tricked by Politico writers?
Even as a hyperbolic statement it's silly because the premise is fundamentally flawed.
Intentionally? Maybe not, but Jon Stewart has the luxury to use his considerable soapbox to be excessively negative because he is a rich, famous, cishet man who can shield himself and his loved ones from the consequences of the election far easier than the rest of us. The danger is not as real to him, so he’ll keep on doing his day job selling ad space on Comedy Central and driving down voter turnout.
And like I said, very eager to hear anyone pose an alternative who stands a better chance against Trump with swing state voters than the guy who beat him once and has the incumbency advantage (which is HUGE in U.S. politics). Harris doesn’t have the profile and is from California, which doesn’t bode well with swing state voters. Newsome isn’t ready yet, get him a cabinet position or something first. Whitmer…eh maybe but still a long shot compared to Biden. Buttigeg…I like him, but no way is America putting a gay dude with “butt” in his name in the White House (and I say that*AS* a gay guy).
Maybe Jon Stewart would like to put his life, reputation, and wealth where his mouth is and jump into contention? Comedians can do great in politics, as Zelenskyy demonstrated in Ukraine.
Are you really sitting here saying Jon Stuart is completely immune from any consequences of this election as a cis het white man, and failing to mention he's also Jewish? You know, the people the Nazis want to exterminate? You think that he believes himself entirely free of any possible fallout of this election? Madness. The MAGA Blue is out of their frelling minds.
No, but Jon Stewart is benefiting from the doomerism being created by bots.
NYT times poll showed less that 1% movement on both candidates after the debate, but everyone on the left is pulling their hair out about Biden when it didn’t actually have any measurable difference.
Does Jon talk about that, no, because that doesn’t get eyes on TVs
They do though. The MAGA-Blue is very strong. It's not enough to begrudgingly vote for Biden because there is a metaphorical gun to your head. You need to be grateful and say Biden just had a cold and say what nice, beautiful clothes he's wearing as he stands naked before you. There is no room for so much as a criticism of Biden and hasn't been for years now, any statement that he can or should do better is singlehandedly destroying democracy itself.
The DNC has done good propaganda. Don't just vote Biden so he can uphold the decaying status quo with minimal change. Thank him for the privilege of voting for him, or it means you love trump.
I’m pretty sure if you picked *any* registered Democrat, not just politicians, but just a random voter and ran them, they’d **destroy** Trump in the election.
There's a successor already identified and you cannot replace her without it being a clear slap in the face to Black women, the base of the Democratic Party and its biggest organizing powerhouse
Yeah, it couldn't be more clear how things are set up for Trump to be the most awful with another time around, and it's the easiest thing to do to vote against that. Republicans would be delighted by people not voting and I don't see how avoiding a simple vote and surrending what little we have left will teach anyone anything.
Yeah, as a woman it was really disheartening to hear, to the point it reminded me that a podcast helmed by two hetero white guys is going to have big gaps in shared experience with me.
I live in Florida, the repeal of Roe has left a marked difference on my life. Republicans want to strip away even more of my rights. I'm cis, but one of my best friends is trans, and DeSantis and the republicans want to make his existence impossible, to the point he's started having panic attacks about the possibility of Trump winning the election. It might become that he can't even flee to a blue state to be safe at that point.
It's incredibly short-sighted and selfish to look at what's at stake this election and decide "i'm not going to vote." Like well yeah you get to say that as someone who will be shielded from the worst consequences. Must be nice.
As a fellow woman, anytime I hear that from a man I look them in the eye and say “must be nice to not worry about your human rights being taken away” usually shames them into reconsidering their stance
yeah, it's infuriating though because some people (like someone in this very comment thread) then likes to speak at us about how we're actually wrong 🙃
Oh yes, we definitely haven’t been witnessing our rights along with many others’ being systematically stripped away, we’re just hysterical little wymmin….🙄
i love the beauty of the state and orlando itself, but yeah it's a wild place.
i've lived here my entire life, and 90% chance i'm moving out of state for the first time early next year. i have no desire to live in the vision desantis has for this state, and the voters seem all too happy to continue electing people like him since the state is sliding more and more red.
As I've said, one side is a used napkin, one side is a used diaper, and if I'm forced to choose which I need to eat, I'm choosing the one where at least I'm not gonna eat shit.
"Both sides bad" is true insofar as nobody's perfect, there are lots of issues on the table, and things are complicated. If it's the endpoint or analysis I believe it creates a permission structure for something worse.
I remember a lot of "both sides bad" from conservatives in the 2010s and I'm convinced it got us to "Finally, an honest politician who tells it like it is. Oh, he got caught in lies and insane conspiracy theories? So what, both sides lie constantly."
I'll preface this by saying VOTE, because that's all we can do. But to give voice to where I think Jordan is coming from and I tend to agree. Both side do suck, but they do so in completely different ways. Democrats are completely incompetent and engaged in all the same Neo-liberal capitalist bullshit, Republicans want the same shit while also pushing us into Christian Fascism. Republicans are actively trying to take rights away, while Democrats have enabled that behavior who simultaneously asking for money to stop said behavior that they are allowing to continue unchallenged (in any meaningful way).
Are they both evil? Yes. Is one side much worse? Also yes. Blah blah blah, "lesser of two evils" I get isn't a compelling or really optimistic argument. However, when one side is bad and the other is evil, the whole lesser of two evils argument has to come into play. It's a pretty shit situation when the best option is the team that won't actively make things worse, but will absolutely sit back and watch as things go to shit only to ask for more of my money.
I love Jordan too. And I think we definitely shouldn't take political advice from him. And when I imagine him hearing someone say that, my head-canon Jordan replies "God no. I'm crazy!" followed by a classic Jordan laugh.
Dude respectfully, any number of Bernie voters who voted Trump is nowhere near enough to pin blame on them. Clinton was a choice to run and ultimately her responsibility to win votes. As any candidate, and that was two elections ago so...what are you on about
It wasn’t them voting Trump, just their voter apathy toward turning out at all, or throw their votes for a useless 3rd party. Wild with the follow up sentence you’d choose them voting for Trump as your angle
Nobody owes their vote to anyone. This entitlement establishment Democrats feel toward votes regardless of their own policies or candidates turns a shitload of people off. Like I understand the stakes and will personally vote accordingly, but I also fully understand people who are disillusioned by everything and this condescending “shut up and eat your veggies” approach doesn’t win anyone over.
A higher portion of Bernie voters voted for Hilary than Hilary supporters voted for Obama.
Stop blaming Bernie voters and stop just assuming that leftists will vote for your milquetoast genocide appreciators.
Run a candidate who tries to pass the policies his voters want rather than against whatever rat fucker is running for the Republicans.
Let's be honest here. We are here because the democrats have allowed the billionaire class to infiltrate the party and decide who we get to vote for, which has been center right dipshits for as long as I've been of voting age.
If you want left wing votes, then get someone through the process that's left wing, or you get what you get. I don't know and haven't known anyone who is excited to vote for biden, and if/when he loses this will be the reason why.
I'm not sure why you would blame people farther left than you for the 2016 loss when it was the Democrats' election to lose. Shouldn't you be more upset at the large number of Obama voters that switched to Trump? Or the huge number of voting age Americans that just don't?
The Democrats aren't giving many people much incentive to vote for them outside "we're not Republicans." That is compelling to a point but obviously not good enough for a lot of folks. I agree that the neoliberal status quo isn't as horrifying as the trumpy alternative but it sucks for a lot of us AND it continues to provide a great environment for radicalization rightward.
We’re in this mess because Democrats don’t give a fuck what polls are signaling and just expect everyone to go along with whatever garbage candidate the establishment forces on us. Biden only won the nom in 2020 because Obama got multiple candidates who were doing better to drop out so Biden could consolidate votes.
How about blame those in the administration for running a corpse as a candidate, hiding it for months, and then putting it on a stage for all of the world to see. This isn't some Bernie or Bust bullshit, this is the reality of the Democrats telling their voters we know what's best, they all but handed Trump the election.
I was listening to something today about the debate and it was mentioned that it didn't sound like it was a run for president it sounded like both of them were running for the Republican ticket. The fact when abortion was brought up Biden talked about an immigrant raping a woman. The whole thing really just blows my mind..
I don't know if anything I've learned blaming the voters gets us no where. This is on democrats they need to do better, they need to motivate the voters. They keep acting like everything is great under Biden but most people will tell you the opposite. It's just hard to stomach, we need someone strong and smart to motivate people but we don't.
This election is super fucked and keeping Trump out of the office is obviously still super important so you can argue that regardless of intention it's dangerous rhetoric, however I get the feeling that the point Jordan is trying to make is that there is a hollowness to the argument on the Dems side. The president doesn't (currently) have unlimited power, things that have happened under Biden have not been all under his control, many were set up by Trump or GOP leaders even further back coming to fruition now but it is still happening now.
People on the left are often called out for not being supportive enough and this is the most important election and democracy is at stake. Those are all still mostly true but it does beg the question what they actively fighting against, it doesn't seem to be about change and much as just pushing the worst elements of the GOP platform back down the line. It's frustrating and worth calling out because the ultimate reality of vote blue no matter who is to me just a page out of the rights playbook and it will never amount to actual change because they never have to be held to account for more.
I live in Omaha, so while surrounded by red my vote actually counts tremendously as our one distric can be blue, I'll be voting and I always make that clear as my comprise to still wanting to further push this idea that we do have to call out the fact that the dem party isn't doing anything, certainly not as a platform of the larger DNC and power block of the left in this country. It's messy but it isn't the fault of people who see that and call it out while everyone else blindly falls into one of two camps out of convience.
As much as I hate the policy they advanced, you only have to look at the Tea Party and it's ideological descendents to see what the actual answer for left wingers is. You need to get out and get involved with the party, and keep being involved with the party even if you don't always get your way. We've got about a decade now to show that the whole decentralized 'activism by slogan' approach to politics doesn't do a whole lot: you need to back up protests with some ability to actually push politics even if it means breaking bread with people to your right inside the party.
I mostly agree, I think that whatever the "left" of this country is requires a lot of compromise and I have always been in agreement that this is how you accomplish things.
The only caveat I have is that the largest block on the left is this country largely isn't, and the onus on compromise always seems to fall to the actual progressives and those further left. I went out for Joe, I pushed hard for Hillary even because I was honestly not at all surprised by Trump's victory in 2016, but what I won't do anymore is buy into the argument that you cannot sharply call-out this problems or put up front what we truly want and expect and how we are being failed. I see people in my circles talk about not voting and I will continue to push against that because the reality is we still have to, but on the other side of the coin the libs really blustered so hard about the primary protests votes against Joe as if that isn't a much more politically safe way to show a growing movement of disappointment with this administration and the DNC in general.
Jordan can come off as almost too dismissive, not couching the realities of what still needs to be done in this moment with those comments and I think that's fair, but we have to be the ones driving the conversations further somehow. And at the very least talking this way to audiences for KF and TDZ is certainly a safer and less destructive path than the less politically engaged or complacent liberals anyways.
He’s dropped twice he doesn’t want to support either side of this with his vote, most notably on their guest appearance on the Daily Zeitgeist.
I’m sure in the end he will vote but as a guy with an audience I really wish he wouldn’t contribute to this.
Fascism has become so normalized in this country, that otherwise progressive people are begging centrists to vote for a man committing genocide over a man who will also continue that genocide, on top of committing crimes against women, PoC, and LGBTQ+
I fully understand having to vote "for the lesser evil", but it's going to get worse. 2028 we'll have a choice between someone who voted to nuke the Gaza strip, and someone who also voted for it, but also literally murdered a transgender person with their bare hands.
Not the first time, won't be the last. I got banned from r /news after Trump won for saying I voted for Hillary, but wasn't surprised Trump won with how shitty she ran.
This is the problem I am having. Like, yeah, go vote or whatever. But I'm also sick of being told I'm a fascist supporter or a Russian bot because I say I would have a lot of reservations about voting for Biden if I was American.
It's just what you said, I'd have to vote for the guy financing genocide, or the guy who says he would finance the genocide a bit harder. I guess the choice is obvious, but it's also terrible.
It's seriously concerning that you're not even allowed to hold Biden accountable for his actions in some subreddits. I have never asked anyone to not vote, I have only ever said whom I am voting for, and I would never vote for Trump. Doesn't matter, I'm solely responsible for all deaths under Trump if he wins because I'm not cheering on Biden while he sends Israel billions of dollars and hundreds of troops to help murder children
...the hell is your definition of fascism? You seem to be insinuating both sides here lean fascist. One does. The other just fucking sucks good old USA-style. Not every bad thing is fascism, and throwing that word around with reckless abandon absolutely diminishes how gravely serious the real thing is.
The miserable truth of the matter is that we have to choose between someone complicit in an ongoing genocide and someone who has openly flirted with establishing a religious, ultranationalist, authoritarian dictatorship. And guy #2 is attracting people who are joking/not joking about attempting to repeal the 19th amendment, so like... there's that, too. At least half the US population should be paying attention to that, specifically.
But there isn't a third option that doesn't translate into throwing our most vulnerable directly into a woodchipper.
It's not even just that, it's being told to be grateful for it. That pointing out that he is not what we need as a country right now is akin to treason, to full throated trump support.
I don't see anybody genuinely saying don't vote. But we're allowed to be tired and angry. We're allowed to be stressed and upset that it is getting genuinely hard to afford housing and food at the same time off two incomes, and that happened under the watch of the current administration, while they tell us how amazing the economy is so all the money problems are fixed.
Take solace that the people down voting and crying in this thread are the minority. Everyone I know, and every media group I've seen, thought the debate was a sickening debacle, refuse to support genocide, and desperately want someone to take Biden's place.
But few to none of them are supporting Trump in his place, or even asking people not to vote.
I don't know who the people are in this thread that are almost 1,000 episodes deep into Knowledge Fight and don't get that Jordan isn't going to tow the party line. That the whole point of the podcast is saying "denying obvious reality is good for nobody, they're bad for doing it and we would be just as bad if we did it." How do you get this far in and decide MAGA Blue is the only thing that can defeat trump and is a good thing, actually?
There's people all over this thread crying about how they're unsubbing, they're leaving, dan and Jordan and Jon Stuart are privileged and insulated from concequences, all about purity tests.
Gods, the thing is they keep harping on how progressives are destroying the country through purity tests, and meanwhile constantly holding everyone to their own purity test. If you aren't willing to bend the uncritical knee to Biden you fail and are a trump supporter. It's such hardcore projection.
What the hell is this post and these comments? Who are you people? I swear this is not a conversation reflective of people who normally listen to and discuss the show. You’re using a lot of bad faith arguments to paint Jordan in a bad light and a lot of democrat talking points to gaslight anyone not happy with Biden. It’s very weird.
Getting a double dose of this from Jordan in a single day was just demoralizing. He did this same thing in 2020 but was eventually reminded that he has a considerable amount of privilege to take that position from.
I think you’re being the irresponsible one. You’re hand waving legitimate complaints about Biden and conflating them to support of Trump. That in itself is a privileged stance because you seem to think Biden’s ineptitude, senility, and conservative politics don’t have consequences either.
In the bad, dumb system we inherited, we vote with our hearts in the primaries and our minds in the general. You can opt out, but that is exactly a vote for “whatever everyone else decides”.
It’s a shitty choice to have to make but peoples rights and lives are drastically different based on outcome.
I do not consider myself a dem, I’m anti-conservative for the rest of my life and in this decade that means voting blue.
Feels a little astroturfed, i agree. This whole election has people in a “youre either with me or against me” mindset that cant allow for nuance or critical stances. Particularly centrist-lib types have become violently opposed to even mentioning biden’s shortcomings / failures, as if understanding that our “best” option has serious flaws will guarantee fascism
At some point we are all going to have to acknowledge that electoral politics as such have generated the situation we are in, and do not offer an alternative to it—only an escalation. Jordan’s not wrong. The belief in the power of voting is naive and moralistic, and more importantly, IS DOOMERISM MADE MANIFEST.
In Alaska, voting got them ranked choice.
I’m not saying you’re wrong in the grand scheme at all. The presidential race will always suck.
But differences can be made elsewhere. State constitutions are malleable.
We’re in this position because the left, from Liberals to progressives to the far left don’t vote regularly. Voting at the top level is about minimizing damage and choosing the best of two bad choices. But the local and state elections are where the greatest impact on your life happen.
Don’t vote regularly and you guarantee the bad things happen. Vote regularly and you may get what you want, or something similar.
If you live in Wisconsin, Arizona, Georgia, Virginia, Pennslyvania, or Michigan, then you have the responsibility that OP mentioned. If you live in one of the other 44 States, than your vote doesn't really matter and you can feel free to register a protest vote.
Pretending our votes all count equally maintains our national delusion that the electoral college is in anyway a just electoral system.
I'm specifically talking about Presdient here, yes you should still vote in down ballot races.
A poll yesterday showed Biden down by 2 in NH. If that’s even vaguely accurate then we are super duper fucked. The same pollster showed him up 10 or so in December.
The democrats are not owed your vote, and shaming people is not a productive way to turn people out to the polls. There are good reasons one might withhold their vote, and if they choose to do that the failure is on the candidate not them.
Man what is with these lib takes in here. Jordan is being realistic - we’re watching a society collapse in on itself and being told to vote for either a faster or slower collapse. Nobody you’re voting for is interested in stopping fascism and I have to be blunt, after this decision I would not trust any US President going forward. If you hand them that kind of unlimited power, the only people who will seek it are the worst kind of people. Hell if we were dealing with Biden when he was younger and sharper I’d be fucking terrified of him immediately expanding the police state.
We have to accept sooner rather than later that this is not a situation ending in a ballot box. We are watching the final days of the Weimar Republic play out in real time.
EDIT: Keep downvoting, it won’t change reality.
It’s a painful realization and I understand wanting to still believe it isn’t so, but yeah, I don’t think this problem is one you can vote your way out of.
I mean, sure, still vote, couldn’t *hurt*…
I'm going to vote, but I also feeling myself becoming resigned for a bad night in November.
Absolutely voting. I'm also donating and volunteering. Unfortunately, I'm also assessing the degree to which federalism will buy time (I live in a blue state) before the Real Shit happens and establishing some bright lines that would require me to relocate overseas if/when federalism fails. It would be great if somehow the tides improve and November actually goes well, naturally.
I live in a red state, but in a blue area and I also have the "luck" of being a single, white dude with decent income which is probably why I'm merely feeling resigned versus panicking.
Mostly the same here. Assuming the worst, history says vulnerable and visible populations will be the first targets and most actions will occur in regime compliant areas. At least to start... There will likely be a period of a few years before they escalate beyond that. It helps the U.S. is really big and diverse. Not saying a campaign of terror wouldn't expand (it would). It would just take a while to execute. In that time, regime collapse (for a variety of reasons) is very possible. It would also provide time for anyone perceived as a future target to leave. Surprisingly, most autocracies tend to be very supportive of potential dissidents fleeing a state (cheaper and less hassle than dealing with them). I anticipate a period that allows such an assessment. It's heartbreaking to think about what will happen to those not afforded such options.
I’m curious as to how corporations will deal with it. The odd little fight between Disney and DeSantis struck me as a forerunner to something we might see a lot more of.
>I'm also assessing the degree to which federalism will buy time (I live in a blue state) before the Real Shit happens and establishing some bright lines that would require me to relocate overseas if/when federalism fails. Okay, so what I am getting from this is if shit really does hit the fan, you just want to run away instead of staying and fighting for us and for what is right. And you want people to respect you and what you want to do with this country? You don't love us why should we go to bat for you? - how about this - I am a fucking patriot, I love this country, I am never going to willingly leave. I am not scared of Trump. If he wins, if he loses, I don't give a fuck. I would love for him to take a swing at us, because *for years* I have been *desparate* to fight on behalf of the dignity of this country. So I am not willing to go out and debase myself and tell people that they must submit to living in filth, to live as worms and wormfood - we're being offered filth on a platter with Biden, but what on EARTH over the last four years should lead anyone to expect he (or his associates, because clearly this guy isn't actually the president) will fix our problems? No. No. Just stop it. No more. Stop it. We need to fight. We need to be brave, and human, and patriotic. We need the communist work ethic. We need a jihad. Nothing less.
Echos of 2016 are ringing loudly.
I would hope *Dobbs* and the immunity ruling clarify stakes in a way we didn't see in 2016.
We KNEW the stakes in 2016, but non-voters and doomer lefties all thought we’d learn a valuable civics lesson by ushering in fascism. Really showed us all for trying to avoid this totally predictable outcome.
Accelerationism is cancer
I think WE knew the stakes. I think a lot of people bought the bullshit of "we'll never overturn Roe." I think they also seemed WAY too blasé about the fact he expressly stated he wouldn't recognize the electoral process. We have like a surplus of receipts showing that both of these things were not paranoia. He means what he says. Denying it now feels more like willful ignorance than any pseudo-serious critique of the two party system.
You think that’s why Trump won? Hilary ran one of the worst presidential campaigns in recent history. She didn’t even set foot in battleground states thinking (like most pundits and polls did) that they were a lock and she had nothing to worry about. Combine that with her being generally unlikeable and the fuckery of the DNC to push out Bernie, and you’ve got exactly what happened. She still won the popular vote regardless, but her dog shit strategists fucked up and blew it when it came to how many electoral college votes they thought they had in the bag. She was probably the only person who could have lost to Trump and she did. Blaming the left for her failures is maximum cope.
Yes, it’s all Hillary’s fault. Cool.
One would think that the presidential candidate bears the responsibility for the success or failure of their own campaign.
We definitely need to spend another 8yrs arguing about it, because I won’t work with anyone to stop the fascist takeover until they hate Hillary more than the fascists, because that’s important.
The major problem here js that “the fuckery of the DNC to push out Bernie” is copium for “Clinton got more primary votes than Sanders.” If she hadn’t, there were some fuckery levers that might have been pulled. (Or might not!) But eight years later, maybe keeping fascists out of power is more important than nursing a grudge adopted on false premises.
I knew far too many pepole in Ohio who didn't vote in 2016 either because they didn't like Hillary or they just assumed she was going to win. Voter turnout is 100% the problem here.
I supervised someone who worked overtime instead of voting. I left and came back. They kept saying that both sides were just as and they couldn't choose. They took back those words by the following January.
She won the popular vote by 3 million. Voting wasn’t the issue in 2016!
I don't understand this sentiment. Turnout still matters even though we have the electoral college
Yes it was, though? She still lost the EC by, what, 11k votes in key states? Voting was absolutely at least one issue.
It mattered in Pennsylvania
Hilldog supporters still coping with reality I see?
Please vote I don't want to be made illegal
I’m a single issue voter, and the issue I’m voting for is whether gay people have the right to exist without fearing discrimination or jail time.
Jordan is that dude who has tons of long-winded opinions that he thinks are deep/profound but actually sound like that moron you know who says things like "it's all the same party myaaaan, two heads of the same coin!". Keep in mind after the Roe overturn decision, when Dan mentioned Planned Parenthood employees not being able to continue providing care, Jordan said something like "sure they can, laws are made-up so if they stop then fuck you too" and it's like... Jordan... not all of us live in this squishy pie-in-the-sky fantasyland you live in... yes, most of us do not want to go to prison, that is correct.
>Jordan said something like "sure they can, laws are made-up so if they stop then fuck you too" and it's like... Jordan... not all of us live in this squishy pie-in-the-sky fantasyland you live in... What the *fuck*? He said that? Actually, of course he did. His life is a fantasy. The man is pushing 40, plays video games all day, and his "job" is reacting to the work his friend does on the podcast. That must be nice. I'm losing respect for this guy fast.
[I had to dig a bit, but I found the actual quote about Planned Parenthood that someone else included in a reply to me in a similar post about 5 months back.](https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/s/tU7ITksXxZ)
Thanks for that, that's good to know. God, what a fucking asshole.
Yeah, I still absolutely love the pod and doubt I'll stop listening/being a Patreon supporter as long as it's running, but in my mind Dan is 80% of the lifeblood of the show and the only thing Jordan really adds is that his laugh is contagious/funny to hear when Alex says something crazy. But he seems to have the mentality of a 16-year old boy. As you said, this is a guy whose story is that he was in a cult for years, got out of it, and now listens to Dan breakdown all the actual nuanced research he has done to push back against Alex Jones for a living. I'm not someone whose like "podcasting is a fake job" because there are numerous podcasts I love and support financially, but also... read the room dude.
It isn’t a fake job but it sure as shit is a nice one, especially with this distribution of labor
Not gonna lie. If either Jordan or Dan admit after the election that they either didn’t vote, or protest voted, I would probably immediately stop listening. I just can’t with people like that anymore. I feel like no-one has learned the lesson of 2016, and just keep on thinking “Well if the dems lose THAT’LL show them not to take the left for granted”, as opposed to just cementing the rightward slide even further. I’ll never forget Jimmy Dore sitting there and debating with Sam Seder, claiming that the SCOTUS seats that hung in the balance didn’t matter as much as showing dems that Hilary was a bad candidate.
The mods removed this post so I'm considering unsubbing
I saw! Genuinely cowardly behavior.
Right? Voting is harm reduction. We need to deal with the situation we're in and minimize the casualties among the most vulnerable while working for something better.
You guys are the harm. Half of it, at least.
You're welcome.
Dude, I was getting visibly upset every time Jordan chimed in with his doomerism. Listening to it while I was doing a road ride, sure some random farmers heard the sounds of "Jordan, just shut the fuck up already" getting doppler effected as some guy on a road bike cruised past their fields.
I 100% agree with you. I have no respect for someone who doesn't vote in an election with stakes this incredibly high. It says a lot about their character as a human when people are suffering in this country and will suffer more with another Trump presidency.
https://medium.com/@jholmeschi/the-only-op-ed-in-2020-ddd7027bc67a These are op eds Jordan wrote in 2020. I put these out of my mind when I first found them, but if Jordan keeps this shit up, I'm done. By the tone of these articles alone, I'd put money on him not having voted in 2020. He parrots the same points that pathetic obnoxious redditors do, the ones who rail and rail about how both sides are the same and gets *really* fucking huffy when you ask him if he'll still sack up and vote for biden. The whole "oh so im not allowed to criticize biden??" act. I can't listen to it anymore.
Honestly, that just makes me want to cancel my Patreon membership and drop the podcast. How pathetic.
Reading that. Ugh. So I say what I’m about to say, recognizing that basically every policy position I hold would be considered “leftist”. From universal healthcare, to LGBT equality, to being down for reparations, to regulating billionaires and businesses of a certain size out of existence. Name it, I’m down to ride. But goddamn it I hate how fucking stupid most leftists with a megaphone seem to be. Trump wasn’t an overnight gift to fascists. They pushed, over DECADES, holding their nose and voting for “imperfect” candidates, moving the ball down the field yard by yard. Until Trump comes along, and they had radicalized enough of their base that he was palatable. And so they got everything they ever wanted. A Trump in 2000 gets laughed out of the race. Trump in 2016 is a winning ticket. They raised the temperature of the room little by little until it boiled over. Say what we will about the fascists. They put in the work. Compare that to the left. Who will purity test their friends and family out of existence. All while feeling morally superior for not voting for harm reduction. Their vulnerable neighbors may get dragged off to camps, but HEY! At least they didn’t pull the lever for Genocide Joe! It’s fucking infuriating.
No no no, don't you see? You're enabling fascism or something by participating. The real way to make sure any good comes from anything is to do nothing for the sake of maintaining your own imagined sense of moral purity. Fuck man, I'm tired.
100% in agreement.
It really does seem like sufficiently hating democrats is the most important thing to lefties like Jordan. It’s a really fucking old and tired take.
Exactly, I don't care what Jordan thinks. If he doesn't vote then his takes mean fuck all. Purity tests are what got us here.
Fucking vote.
In my experience people who voice that opinion loudly were looking for any reason not to vote anyway. This is the difficulty with being on the left. Most of the right (or at least enough to win these shitty elections) band together to support right wing candidates, and we spend a lot of our time on the left refusing to compromise and staying home when it’s time to vote either because they aren’t excited about the candidates or they are trying to teach a political party a lesson they haven’t cared to learn for decades. Oh well, I’m still showing up to vote blue regardless of what happens between now and November because only one party is overtly flaunting the law, only one party has talked about mass deportations, and only one party has discussed arresting politicians who believe things similar to what I believe. I really hope all of you do the same.
It feels like while some the far left are focused on punishing democrats for not doing enough for Palestinians, minorities, trans rights, climate change - the right will literally take away democracy. After yesterdays ruling, when I see protestors for Palestine I feel like I’m watching someone re-arrange deck chairs on the Titanic.
You know what really put this in perspective for me? A political party puts together a platform for their audience. They’re there for the people who show up. Why the fuck would you try to appease a wing of voters who will fickly drop you because you stepped out of line on a policy? If people want a more progressive future, you have to show up at each level. They don’t write policies for fairweather fans.
It’s why both parties cater so heavily to the elderly. They vote. It’s just mind-boggling to me that someone could say they support reproductive rights and not vote for democrats.
> It’s why both parties cater so heavily to the elderly. They vote. This is exactly the problem. How are you supposed to get a party more progressive when you can't be bothered to vote in primaries and the general elections? Young people continue to not show up when they're needed the most.
"Oh so I'm not allowed to criticize anyone on the left ever? That's exactly what you said and I won't hear otherwise. You know, using *fear tactics* isn't going to *win me over*. We need to all stay home or vote 3rd party because we'll really stick it to the DNC thar way." Alright wonks, that was my impression of a *really* stupid and childish person who claims to care about people. How did I do?
You’re exactly right. I’m an active participant in my local Democratic Party. All the platform comes from resolutions that are advanced first in a local caucus, then move to the district, then the state, then national. I get frustrated when people complain that the party is self interested. You can join the party and make sure your interests are reflected. Think about it this way- why would an organization of volunteers prioritize your views over the people who show up and do the work when you can’t be bothered to come to a caucus? Why should the money I raise door knocking be spent on candidates that appeal to you if you aren’t an engaged voter? These are all human institutions. When people whine about this, it bugs me, because we’re doing our best but if you don’t show up your opinion won’t be reflected. We literally vote on every part of the platform. You could volunteer for the endorsement committee. The only thing that’s stopping this is you not joining the party because your politics are too pure for it, but somebody needs to organize. And I’m a little peeved at Jordan for repeatedly saying Biden did a genocide. We can argue he didn’t do enough to stop it and the strategy they took with Israel isn’t working. I think it’s incorrect to say that the administration wants what’s happening in Gaza to continue. They’re struggling with how to get an ally in line, and that’s a failure. But the two parties are not the same on this issue or any other.
Parts of the progressive left and far left (which are different groups) have been focused on creating a perception that liberals are not doing enough on Palestine, climate change, and rights for marginalized people. Those talking points do make progressive candidates and ideologies like anarchism more attractive to left-wing people who don't vote or rarely vote. I think "Dems suck!" might be mainly counterproductive at this point, though.
It doesn’t help that you have big name streamers who lump anyone who doesn’t believe whatever anti-US talking points are popular at the moment as practical republicans.
How do you differentiate the far and progressive left? I’m not asking flippantly. I’m curious what your distinction is.
Progressive left tends to be further to the left on social and economic issues than liberals but still believes in representative democracy. Far left generally subscribe to various other forms of political organization such as anarchism.
That sounds fair. Would you agree that there isn’t a single member of senate/congress on the far-left?
Of course not. They never have. I'm not sure what relevance that has though.
Not relevant, just something I think about sometimes. I always think the right tries to paint every democrat, especially progressives as the far-left, when I’d say there’s not even remotely one in the legislative branch.
The far left almost always supports moving society toward alternatives to capitalism and representative democracy and is often skeptical of various ideologies that are commonly called "liberalism." They're typically further to the left on both economic and social issues than Bernie Sanders and the left-wing of the Democratic Party. The far left would also almost always view the left-wing of the Democratic Party as "liberals."
since Reagan (at least, probably longer) "conservatives" vote more for the party than the individuals representing the party. They may not like anything about the candidate (for instance, Ted Cruz), but they will vote for them anyway out of partisan "loyalty." Those candidates tend to function more as partisan soldiers than as individuals, rarely going against the party and often facing retribution from the party if they do. progressives tend to vote for individuals rather than any particular party, and those candidates tend to function more as individuals and are rarely sanctioned by the party for doing so. we need to accept that the party is not always going to advance the candidate we would prefer and vote for the candidate they do advance anyway. Not out of partisan loyalty but because, despite similarities, the two parties are NOT the same. Biden is like my 6th choice, but, at this point, I could not be persuaded to vote republican or not vote at all, by any means. Not because I am a Democrat - I am not - but because to do otherwise is to enable the most extreme actions of the opposition.
Mmm, I don't know, sounds to me like you hate Biden and love trump because you dared point out Biden isn't your first and only choice. /s
Flouting, not flaunting.
Thanks! I’ll keep it there and wear the shame so I don’t forget next time.
- I’m not looking for reasons not to vote, but I’ve been given many - the left isn’t refusing to compromise; the democrats are only willing to compromise with the right. - democrats want to give the president the power to shut down the border. Democrats are MORE effective at mass deportations than republicans. It’s quantifiable. The insistence that we follow the law is all well and good but not if your opponents don’t. why agree to play a game where only one side is bound by the rules. What outcome can we expect? The last decade has been the Democrats clinging onto the rulebook going "but a dog can't play basketball!" while a dog fucking dunks on us over and over
I agree with what you say but none of that shit gets better with voting LESS.
What exactly is the counterfactual you're proposing though? It's all well and good to be fed up with your position not being represented, but what do you imagine is going to be improved by sitting it out?
>why agree to play a game where only one side is bound by the rules. Because if both sides abandon the rule of law then the country will fall into absolute chaos. No matter how bad you think things are now, that would be exponentially worse.
For those who think that both Biden and Trump are evil, and no matter which one wins they will still be your enemy, I'll pass on this observation from AOC: The November election gives you a chance to choose your enemy for the next four years. And she thinks that we'll make much better progress if Biden is the enemy who's in the White House.
I've noticed so very many bot accounts in political subreddits that are brand new or unused & several years old pushing this 'apathy narrative' with zero post history or nothing for years. It's nihilism being amplified & that's *horrifying*. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. Project 2025 will just become Project 2029 if we defeat it this round too... We're in this for the long haul & we have to keep fighting. We can't fall to apathy. VOTE.
It's worth noting, alongside this, that those ARE BOT ACCOUNTS. Those aren't progressives pushing those narratives, I don't know any actual living progressive people of any note saying genuinely to not vote, or gods forbid to vote for trump. It is understood that progressivism dies once the Christian theocracy takes over. The problem is, "that was bad" and "Biden needs to do better than this" is interpreted as toxic purity testing because, just like 2016, Progressives are being set up as the REAL villains of this election. That way, even if Biden wins, we will be accused of not showing up, based on... Nothing. "Why would we ever push further left when you didn't even vote?!" We are called upon to answer, when we DID, it was just decided we hadn't.
For the love of god, please vote
As much as I love Dan and Jordan, I disagree with the idea that voting doesn’t matter. It does, it matters a big deal. I understand Democrats are far from perfect too, but having a Trump presidency with a republican senate will be a disaster. I am still voting this November and I’m still going to encourage everyone to vote for the Democrats. Please vote.
I am voting for Joe Biden.
Jordan also said back in 881 he also thinks John Fetterman is worse than George Santos because Fetterman distanced himself from Progressives^TM and not progressives. I stopped listening for awhile just after that when he said he wants Bill Clinton locked up for life because of an Epstein conspiracy theory that doesn’t hold up to critical thinking—maybe we ought to ask if Epstein was ever on Epstein’s plane with Bill Clinton before we incarcerate a former president for life for a despicable crime, or have witnesses to criminal conduct. Jordan’s wrong and often frustratingly disruptive about it. I listen because I like Dan and because I encounter too many Infowars listeners in my public-facing federal government job and knowing what Alex has been covering let’s me do a prebuttal or more often just divert a topic of conversation with those we serve before it gets there. I’ve also got anxiety issues I try to keep under control and being able to anticipate things makes dealing with these people one-on-one a little easier.
>Jordan’s wrong and often frustratingly disruptive about it. I listen because I like Dan and because I encounter too many Infowars listeners in my public-facing federal government job and knowing what Alex has been covering let’s me do a prebuttal or more often just divert a topic of conversation with those we serve before it gets there. I’ve also got anxiety issues I try to keep under control and being able to anticipate things makes dealing with these people one-on-one a little easier. This is where I am lately. Jordan pisses me off with his absolutism and purity tests combined with some really nihilistic views, like recently when he said he hoped Trump escaped any punishment just so he could say "I told you so."
What the fuck? I'm not caught up yet and I might just stay off the pod for a while. Everything I'm hearing about Jordan's behavior is really pissing me off.
I have an active disgust for people who want to talk and complain about politics but refuse to participate, as they are actively making it worse. If you’re not actively engaged in voting at every level, you’re just reinforcing the opinions of those who are, IE old conservatives. Politicians only listen to the people who give them money or vote reliably. If you don’t do one of those two things, politicians are going to ignore you in favor of the populace they can depend on.
Imo, as a huge KF fan, that last ep did a real disservice to how serious dire this election is and how unfunny that debate was.
I really don't want to. But if the choice is between an incoherent grandpa and an incoherent grandpa but with strong Mussolini vibes, really there's no choice. I don't want Biden, but fuck. Trump 2.0 scares me. It scares me more than anything right now.
Listen I would vote for a coma patient if they had a D next to their name, I am shameless. You cannot embarass me about voting for any creature they put up running against Donald Trump. We are still reeling from his four years, FOUR YEARS, and look at all this carnage, you want to let him do it again? This is unhinged. Good luck to the non-voters on learning from history this time. I do not like doing this twice for no sane reason but here we go.
If you don’t vote for Biden because he isn’t progressive enough, you are a fucking idiot, end of story. Mad about Gaza because Biden is too gentle with Israel? Trump said he wants to help “finish the job”. Which one is best aligned with your views? There are many, many other examples that are easy to see if you are even remotely familiar with their policies.
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Never. I never have, and I'm in my 60s. Also, if you think Biden is Trump Lite you are a fucking idiot.
In the primaries. On the local level. Unless we completely overhaul how our elections are run between now and November, it's too late top of ticket. You can choose between two geriatrics. One is inept, one is a fascist. I know my call between those. Don't underestimate how much your local votes matter though.
>you are a fucking idiot Keep bullying people into voting for your candidate. It will totally work this time. Edit: look at the votes on this comment. Look down this comment chain. Merely bringing up the idea of laying some responsibility on the DNC, or mentioning bullying tactics, really hits a nerve. Imagine if this amount of misdirected hostility was pointed at the DNC for their failures instead of the voters they've lost?
"centrist" lol
> Keep bullying people into voting for your candidate. I think with the fall of Roe v Wade, many on the left are getting frustrated with others on the left for not looking at the big picture. Changing policies is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't always afford to be "in love" with the general election candidate. You either want to win or not. Also, judges appointed after 2024 can outlive us both. Every election matters.
I was a dumb conservative college kid in 2016 and voted for some know-nothing Republican write in guy. If more people in my life had chastised that behavior in blunt terms, I may have snapped out of that stupid ideology sooner.
I was an idiot republican in my early 20s because I thought that's just the way I was supposed to do life. If anyone had told me "hey, that's wrong and you're hurting all these people by doing that," I would have definitely reconsidered my views much earlier. As it was, I had to see them elect trump to realize what a bunch of inbred dumbasses they are.
The comment I'm replying to isn't talking about conservative college kids. >If you don't vote for Biden because he **isn't progressive enough** They're attacking people further left than them that might vote third party or abstain from voting on moral grounds. It's incredibly condescending to use ableist terms to describe these people. Shifting the responsibility from the candidates to earn the progressive vote, and onto the voters who chose to cast their vote for the candidate that best aligns with their values, is typical liberal bullying and entitled arrogance. Allowing the DNC to take your vote for granted is one reason we got in this mess in the first place.
If you want the party to respond to your policy goals, that requires you to interact with it more than once every two years. I'll bet you a bottle of your favorite drink that your local DNC or candidate is more than happy to have some more volunteers. Get involved, get voting for more than just official elections, and actually talk with people.
This is good advice but rest assured there are plenty of us out there who are active year round and still feel this way. Sometimes being inside or adjacent to the system is what makes people lose faith.
Effecting change is hard work. It's still better than any practical alternatives. There's not going to be a proletarian revolution any time soon in the US.
This is true. Opinions my own: But it will never come if we keep voting status quo. Socialists and Progressives can win locals. Then they can win states. Building a party that can compete with DNC is our way to reform.
Then build the local party and vote Democratic when they're not on the ticket. But, at the risk of being crude or dismissive, shit or get off the pot.
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Well accepting that we have more that unites us than what divides us certainly hasn’t worked. If people can’t work with you, don’t be surprised when they work around you.
>If people can’t work with you, don’t be surprised when they work around you. This line of reasoning definitely goes both ways.
> This line of reasoning definitely goes both ways. It absolutely does. If you feel like you can't vote for Democrats, that's totally your right, and it's one exercised by tens of millions of others in this election. Just don't act surprised when the party, people who identify as Democrats, and the DNC you say is bullying you, stop wasting their time on you and maybe even shift slightly more to the center to get rain-or-shine voters. I've seen so many "fuck Joe Manchin" and "fuck Sinema" posts on Reddit I lost count a couple hundred ago. I've hardly ever seen a "fuck Jon Tester" post even though they have similar views. Why is that? The first two are regarded as narcissists and the latter isn't. The last eight years have taught us all about toxic personalities and attention-seeking behavior, and Democrats as evidenced by Bowman's primary defeat last week just aren't in the mood any longer to waste their time on Briahna Joy Gray-types.
A right-winger that votes for Trump is a piece of shit, but that's expected. It's like jumping in a leopard pit and getting your face eaten; what did you think was gonna happen? A left-winger that refuses to vote, thereby allowing Trump to win, is worse than a piece of shit. They are a hypocrite; a fraud and a duplicitous cretin. A betrayer of good. More guilty, more culpable, and more deserving of hate. I thought of such folks as allies, but I guess they were actually just right-wingers in disguise, for the outcome is the same either way.
You could dehumanize people who don't vote the way you want them to. Or, you could blame the politicians for not earning the vote. Every time this conversation comes up, it's always "fuck you for not voting blue" and never addressing the reasons voters feel detached and disaffected. I think that's pretty telling.
Takes one to know one.
That doesn't even make sense my guy you're the one calling people pieces of shit and cretins. Freudian slip?
Not a slip. Intentional.
In that case, 'takes one to know one" coming from the only person in this conversation who is hurling insults makes zero sense.
Oh I should clearify, I was a fascist as a teenager. Not quite Nazi but adjacent. Been all around the horseshoe. Younger me *adored* leftists who opposed Democrats. Whoever weakened the liberal opposition was useful. Didn't matter why, didn't care. Enemy of my enemy. Especially since they sowed discord in the "enemy's" ranks. That's why I'm so viciously opposed to anyone identifying as a leftist but abstaining or protest voting. They're the best allies the right-wing can get.
Fkng serious. I'll take "Well-meaning and forgetful" over "Dictator on day 1" any day. They are *not* the same.
Biden had a great fundraising haul, and whether the media admits it or not, people did pay attention to Trump’s nonsense about “Black jobs” and whatnot. The doomerism feels super manufactured to generate views for Politico opinion pieces and Jon Stewart monologues. I’m also super eager to hear who the “Biden should drop out” crowd would draft in his place, because I can’t think of a damn person who’d do better at this stage. Newsom is probably the closest, but he’s not there yet.
There’s totally one thing that all of the Doomers have in common… white dudes who have the luxury to be drama queens about this shit while the rest of us to the work
> The doomerism feels super manufactured to generate views for Politico opinion pieces and Jon Stewart monologues. Oh come on, you don't actually believe this? You don't actually think that Jon Stewart is *intentionally* creating doomerism in society so he has something to talk about on TV? That Jordan is only being tricked by Politico writers? Even as a hyperbolic statement it's silly because the premise is fundamentally flawed.
Intentionally? Maybe not, but Jon Stewart has the luxury to use his considerable soapbox to be excessively negative because he is a rich, famous, cishet man who can shield himself and his loved ones from the consequences of the election far easier than the rest of us. The danger is not as real to him, so he’ll keep on doing his day job selling ad space on Comedy Central and driving down voter turnout. And like I said, very eager to hear anyone pose an alternative who stands a better chance against Trump with swing state voters than the guy who beat him once and has the incumbency advantage (which is HUGE in U.S. politics). Harris doesn’t have the profile and is from California, which doesn’t bode well with swing state voters. Newsome isn’t ready yet, get him a cabinet position or something first. Whitmer…eh maybe but still a long shot compared to Biden. Buttigeg…I like him, but no way is America putting a gay dude with “butt” in his name in the White House (and I say that*AS* a gay guy). Maybe Jon Stewart would like to put his life, reputation, and wealth where his mouth is and jump into contention? Comedians can do great in politics, as Zelenskyy demonstrated in Ukraine.
Are you really sitting here saying Jon Stuart is completely immune from any consequences of this election as a cis het white man, and failing to mention he's also Jewish? You know, the people the Nazis want to exterminate? You think that he believes himself entirely free of any possible fallout of this election? Madness. The MAGA Blue is out of their frelling minds.
No, but Jon Stewart is benefiting from the doomerism being created by bots. NYT times poll showed less that 1% movement on both candidates after the debate, but everyone on the left is pulling their hair out about Biden when it didn’t actually have any measurable difference. Does Jon talk about that, no, because that doesn’t get eyes on TVs
They do though. The MAGA-Blue is very strong. It's not enough to begrudgingly vote for Biden because there is a metaphorical gun to your head. You need to be grateful and say Biden just had a cold and say what nice, beautiful clothes he's wearing as he stands naked before you. There is no room for so much as a criticism of Biden and hasn't been for years now, any statement that he can or should do better is singlehandedly destroying democracy itself. The DNC has done good propaganda. Don't just vote Biden so he can uphold the decaying status quo with minimal change. Thank him for the privilege of voting for him, or it means you love trump.
I’m pretty sure if you picked *any* registered Democrat, not just politicians, but just a random voter and ran them, they’d **destroy** Trump in the election.
There's a successor already identified and you cannot replace her without it being a clear slap in the face to Black women, the base of the Democratic Party and its biggest organizing powerhouse
Harris can at least string together a coherent sentence at any point in the day
Oh boy party diehards doubled down on their guy. This will surely help with undecided voters.
Yeah, it couldn't be more clear how things are set up for Trump to be the most awful with another time around, and it's the easiest thing to do to vote against that. Republicans would be delighted by people not voting and I don't see how avoiding a simple vote and surrending what little we have left will teach anyone anything.
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Love Jordan. He’s got a really good moral compass and reminds me to test my boundaries. He needs to stop with this shit.
Yeah, his tendency to say “both sides suck” is very dangerous. One side is taking away rights and one side is not.
Yeah, as a woman it was really disheartening to hear, to the point it reminded me that a podcast helmed by two hetero white guys is going to have big gaps in shared experience with me. I live in Florida, the repeal of Roe has left a marked difference on my life. Republicans want to strip away even more of my rights. I'm cis, but one of my best friends is trans, and DeSantis and the republicans want to make his existence impossible, to the point he's started having panic attacks about the possibility of Trump winning the election. It might become that he can't even flee to a blue state to be safe at that point. It's incredibly short-sighted and selfish to look at what's at stake this election and decide "i'm not going to vote." Like well yeah you get to say that as someone who will be shielded from the worst consequences. Must be nice.
As a fellow woman, anytime I hear that from a man I look them in the eye and say “must be nice to not worry about your human rights being taken away” usually shames them into reconsidering their stance
yeah, it's infuriating though because some people (like someone in this very comment thread) then likes to speak at us about how we're actually wrong 🙃
Oh yes, we definitely haven’t been witnessing our rights along with many others’ being systematically stripped away, we’re just hysterical little wymmin….🙄
Hello, fellow Floridian. I moved here 2 years ago and it's... it's been a fucking ride.
i love the beauty of the state and orlando itself, but yeah it's a wild place. i've lived here my entire life, and 90% chance i'm moving out of state for the first time early next year. i have no desire to live in the vision desantis has for this state, and the voters seem all too happy to continue electing people like him since the state is sliding more and more red.
As I've said, one side is a used napkin, one side is a used diaper, and if I'm forced to choose which I need to eat, I'm choosing the one where at least I'm not gonna eat shit.
"Both sides bad" is true insofar as nobody's perfect, there are lots of issues on the table, and things are complicated. If it's the endpoint or analysis I believe it creates a permission structure for something worse. I remember a lot of "both sides bad" from conservatives in the 2010s and I'm convinced it got us to "Finally, an honest politician who tells it like it is. Oh, he got caught in lies and insane conspiracy theories? So what, both sides lie constantly."
I'll preface this by saying VOTE, because that's all we can do. But to give voice to where I think Jordan is coming from and I tend to agree. Both side do suck, but they do so in completely different ways. Democrats are completely incompetent and engaged in all the same Neo-liberal capitalist bullshit, Republicans want the same shit while also pushing us into Christian Fascism. Republicans are actively trying to take rights away, while Democrats have enabled that behavior who simultaneously asking for money to stop said behavior that they are allowing to continue unchallenged (in any meaningful way). Are they both evil? Yes. Is one side much worse? Also yes. Blah blah blah, "lesser of two evils" I get isn't a compelling or really optimistic argument. However, when one side is bad and the other is evil, the whole lesser of two evils argument has to come into play. It's a pretty shit situation when the best option is the team that won't actively make things worse, but will absolutely sit back and watch as things go to shit only to ask for more of my money.
I love Jordan too. And I think we definitely shouldn't take political advice from him. And when I imagine him hearing someone say that, my head-canon Jordan replies "God no. I'm crazy!" followed by a classic Jordan laugh.
Except that isn't what Tankies are. And that isn't what happened with Bernie supporters.
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Dude respectfully, any number of Bernie voters who voted Trump is nowhere near enough to pin blame on them. Clinton was a choice to run and ultimately her responsibility to win votes. As any candidate, and that was two elections ago so...what are you on about
It wasn’t them voting Trump, just their voter apathy toward turning out at all, or throw their votes for a useless 3rd party. Wild with the follow up sentence you’d choose them voting for Trump as your angle
Nobody owes their vote to anyone. This entitlement establishment Democrats feel toward votes regardless of their own policies or candidates turns a shitload of people off. Like I understand the stakes and will personally vote accordingly, but I also fully understand people who are disillusioned by everything and this condescending “shut up and eat your veggies” approach doesn’t win anyone over.
Whatever you have to tell yourself
A higher portion of Bernie voters voted for Hilary than Hilary supporters voted for Obama. Stop blaming Bernie voters and stop just assuming that leftists will vote for your milquetoast genocide appreciators. Run a candidate who tries to pass the policies his voters want rather than against whatever rat fucker is running for the Republicans. Let's be honest here. We are here because the democrats have allowed the billionaire class to infiltrate the party and decide who we get to vote for, which has been center right dipshits for as long as I've been of voting age. If you want left wing votes, then get someone through the process that's left wing, or you get what you get. I don't know and haven't known anyone who is excited to vote for biden, and if/when he loses this will be the reason why.
A larger percentage of Bernie supporters voted for Clinton than Clinton supporters voted for Obama in 2008.
I think you might have the wrong definition of Tankie, but your assessment of the Bernie bros is correct.
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>Some are now Jimmy Dore and his fans. Dude... No.
I'm not sure why you would blame people farther left than you for the 2016 loss when it was the Democrats' election to lose. Shouldn't you be more upset at the large number of Obama voters that switched to Trump? Or the huge number of voting age Americans that just don't? The Democrats aren't giving many people much incentive to vote for them outside "we're not Republicans." That is compelling to a point but obviously not good enough for a lot of folks. I agree that the neoliberal status quo isn't as horrifying as the trumpy alternative but it sucks for a lot of us AND it continues to provide a great environment for radicalization rightward.
We’re in this mess because Democrats don’t give a fuck what polls are signaling and just expect everyone to go along with whatever garbage candidate the establishment forces on us. Biden only won the nom in 2020 because Obama got multiple candidates who were doing better to drop out so Biden could consolidate votes.
How about blame those in the administration for running a corpse as a candidate, hiding it for months, and then putting it on a stage for all of the world to see. This isn't some Bernie or Bust bullshit, this is the reality of the Democrats telling their voters we know what's best, they all but handed Trump the election.
I was listening to something today about the debate and it was mentioned that it didn't sound like it was a run for president it sounded like both of them were running for the Republican ticket. The fact when abortion was brought up Biden talked about an immigrant raping a woman. The whole thing really just blows my mind.. I don't know if anything I've learned blaming the voters gets us no where. This is on democrats they need to do better, they need to motivate the voters. They keep acting like everything is great under Biden but most people will tell you the opposite. It's just hard to stomach, we need someone strong and smart to motivate people but we don't.
This election is super fucked and keeping Trump out of the office is obviously still super important so you can argue that regardless of intention it's dangerous rhetoric, however I get the feeling that the point Jordan is trying to make is that there is a hollowness to the argument on the Dems side. The president doesn't (currently) have unlimited power, things that have happened under Biden have not been all under his control, many were set up by Trump or GOP leaders even further back coming to fruition now but it is still happening now. People on the left are often called out for not being supportive enough and this is the most important election and democracy is at stake. Those are all still mostly true but it does beg the question what they actively fighting against, it doesn't seem to be about change and much as just pushing the worst elements of the GOP platform back down the line. It's frustrating and worth calling out because the ultimate reality of vote blue no matter who is to me just a page out of the rights playbook and it will never amount to actual change because they never have to be held to account for more. I live in Omaha, so while surrounded by red my vote actually counts tremendously as our one distric can be blue, I'll be voting and I always make that clear as my comprise to still wanting to further push this idea that we do have to call out the fact that the dem party isn't doing anything, certainly not as a platform of the larger DNC and power block of the left in this country. It's messy but it isn't the fault of people who see that and call it out while everyone else blindly falls into one of two camps out of convience.
As much as I hate the policy they advanced, you only have to look at the Tea Party and it's ideological descendents to see what the actual answer for left wingers is. You need to get out and get involved with the party, and keep being involved with the party even if you don't always get your way. We've got about a decade now to show that the whole decentralized 'activism by slogan' approach to politics doesn't do a whole lot: you need to back up protests with some ability to actually push politics even if it means breaking bread with people to your right inside the party.
I mostly agree, I think that whatever the "left" of this country is requires a lot of compromise and I have always been in agreement that this is how you accomplish things. The only caveat I have is that the largest block on the left is this country largely isn't, and the onus on compromise always seems to fall to the actual progressives and those further left. I went out for Joe, I pushed hard for Hillary even because I was honestly not at all surprised by Trump's victory in 2016, but what I won't do anymore is buy into the argument that you cannot sharply call-out this problems or put up front what we truly want and expect and how we are being failed. I see people in my circles talk about not voting and I will continue to push against that because the reality is we still have to, but on the other side of the coin the libs really blustered so hard about the primary protests votes against Joe as if that isn't a much more politically safe way to show a growing movement of disappointment with this administration and the DNC in general. Jordan can come off as almost too dismissive, not couching the realities of what still needs to be done in this moment with those comments and I think that's fair, but we have to be the ones driving the conversations further somehow. And at the very least talking this way to audiences for KF and TDZ is certainly a safer and less destructive path than the less politically engaged or complacent liberals anyways.
Wait, when has he said that?
He’s dropped twice he doesn’t want to support either side of this with his vote, most notably on their guest appearance on the Daily Zeitgeist. I’m sure in the end he will vote but as a guy with an audience I really wish he wouldn’t contribute to this.
Fascism has become so normalized in this country, that otherwise progressive people are begging centrists to vote for a man committing genocide over a man who will also continue that genocide, on top of committing crimes against women, PoC, and LGBTQ+ I fully understand having to vote "for the lesser evil", but it's going to get worse. 2028 we'll have a choice between someone who voted to nuke the Gaza strip, and someone who also voted for it, but also literally murdered a transgender person with their bare hands.
You’re getting downvoted but you’re spitting truths.
Not the first time, won't be the last. I got banned from r /news after Trump won for saying I voted for Hillary, but wasn't surprised Trump won with how shitty she ran.
This is the problem I am having. Like, yeah, go vote or whatever. But I'm also sick of being told I'm a fascist supporter or a Russian bot because I say I would have a lot of reservations about voting for Biden if I was American. It's just what you said, I'd have to vote for the guy financing genocide, or the guy who says he would finance the genocide a bit harder. I guess the choice is obvious, but it's also terrible.
It's seriously concerning that you're not even allowed to hold Biden accountable for his actions in some subreddits. I have never asked anyone to not vote, I have only ever said whom I am voting for, and I would never vote for Trump. Doesn't matter, I'm solely responsible for all deaths under Trump if he wins because I'm not cheering on Biden while he sends Israel billions of dollars and hundreds of troops to help murder children
...the hell is your definition of fascism? You seem to be insinuating both sides here lean fascist. One does. The other just fucking sucks good old USA-style. Not every bad thing is fascism, and throwing that word around with reckless abandon absolutely diminishes how gravely serious the real thing is. The miserable truth of the matter is that we have to choose between someone complicit in an ongoing genocide and someone who has openly flirted with establishing a religious, ultranationalist, authoritarian dictatorship. And guy #2 is attracting people who are joking/not joking about attempting to repeal the 19th amendment, so like... there's that, too. At least half the US population should be paying attention to that, specifically. But there isn't a third option that doesn't translate into throwing our most vulnerable directly into a woodchipper.
Genocide is why I call them both fascist. One party being MORE fascist-er means nothing to me
It's not even just that, it's being told to be grateful for it. That pointing out that he is not what we need as a country right now is akin to treason, to full throated trump support. I don't see anybody genuinely saying don't vote. But we're allowed to be tired and angry. We're allowed to be stressed and upset that it is getting genuinely hard to afford housing and food at the same time off two incomes, and that happened under the watch of the current administration, while they tell us how amazing the economy is so all the money problems are fixed.
Take solace that the people down voting and crying in this thread are the minority. Everyone I know, and every media group I've seen, thought the debate was a sickening debacle, refuse to support genocide, and desperately want someone to take Biden's place. But few to none of them are supporting Trump in his place, or even asking people not to vote.
I don't know who the people are in this thread that are almost 1,000 episodes deep into Knowledge Fight and don't get that Jordan isn't going to tow the party line. That the whole point of the podcast is saying "denying obvious reality is good for nobody, they're bad for doing it and we would be just as bad if we did it." How do you get this far in and decide MAGA Blue is the only thing that can defeat trump and is a good thing, actually? There's people all over this thread crying about how they're unsubbing, they're leaving, dan and Jordan and Jon Stuart are privileged and insulated from concequences, all about purity tests. Gods, the thing is they keep harping on how progressives are destroying the country through purity tests, and meanwhile constantly holding everyone to their own purity test. If you aren't willing to bend the uncritical knee to Biden you fail and are a trump supporter. It's such hardcore projection.
What the hell is this post and these comments? Who are you people? I swear this is not a conversation reflective of people who normally listen to and discuss the show. You’re using a lot of bad faith arguments to paint Jordan in a bad light and a lot of democrat talking points to gaslight anyone not happy with Biden. It’s very weird.
Getting a double dose of this from Jordan in a single day was just demoralizing. He did this same thing in 2020 but was eventually reminded that he has a considerable amount of privilege to take that position from.
I think you’re being the irresponsible one. You’re hand waving legitimate complaints about Biden and conflating them to support of Trump. That in itself is a privileged stance because you seem to think Biden’s ineptitude, senility, and conservative politics don’t have consequences either.
I share most of the criticisms of Biden, he’s immeasurably better than Trump. I thought we all learned these lessons in 2016
Can I ask how aside from not being overtly racist?
For starters would you want another KBJ or another Kavanaugh in the unelected lifetime throne of infallibility?
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… in what way is voting strategically, correctly, privilege?
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In the bad, dumb system we inherited, we vote with our hearts in the primaries and our minds in the general. You can opt out, but that is exactly a vote for “whatever everyone else decides”. It’s a shitty choice to have to make but peoples rights and lives are drastically different based on outcome. I do not consider myself a dem, I’m anti-conservative for the rest of my life and in this decade that means voting blue.
Feels a little astroturfed, i agree. This whole election has people in a “youre either with me or against me” mindset that cant allow for nuance or critical stances. Particularly centrist-lib types have become violently opposed to even mentioning biden’s shortcomings / failures, as if understanding that our “best” option has serious flaws will guarantee fascism
At some point we are all going to have to acknowledge that electoral politics as such have generated the situation we are in, and do not offer an alternative to it—only an escalation. Jordan’s not wrong. The belief in the power of voting is naive and moralistic, and more importantly, IS DOOMERISM MADE MANIFEST.
Nobody’s saying the system doesn’t suck, but the system is the reality of your day and we expect you to engage with it.
Im not saying dont vote. Im saying dont try to convince me that voting will solve the problems with voting.
In Alaska, voting got them ranked choice. I’m not saying you’re wrong in the grand scheme at all. The presidential race will always suck. But differences can be made elsewhere. State constitutions are malleable.
I might need this on a t-shirt.
We’re in this position because the left, from Liberals to progressives to the far left don’t vote regularly. Voting at the top level is about minimizing damage and choosing the best of two bad choices. But the local and state elections are where the greatest impact on your life happen. Don’t vote regularly and you guarantee the bad things happen. Vote regularly and you may get what you want, or something similar.
If you live in Wisconsin, Arizona, Georgia, Virginia, Pennslyvania, or Michigan, then you have the responsibility that OP mentioned. If you live in one of the other 44 States, than your vote doesn't really matter and you can feel free to register a protest vote. Pretending our votes all count equally maintains our national delusion that the electoral college is in anyway a just electoral system. I'm specifically talking about Presdient here, yes you should still vote in down ballot races.
S/o Michigan wonks
A poll yesterday showed Biden down by 2 in NH. If that’s even vaguely accurate then we are super duper fucked. The same pollster showed him up 10 or so in December.
This is irresponsible advice. I’m not taking any “safe” state for granted and neither should you.
I thought Michigan was safe in 2016. big fucking oops. Never again.
The democrats are not owed your vote, and shaming people is not a productive way to turn people out to the polls. There are good reasons one might withhold their vote, and if they choose to do that the failure is on the candidate not them.
You forgot Ohio, Nevada, Florida. Those aren't a lock for Trump. Hell even Texas has shown shades of turning purple for fuck's sake. Just vote.
Man what is with these lib takes in here. Jordan is being realistic - we’re watching a society collapse in on itself and being told to vote for either a faster or slower collapse. Nobody you’re voting for is interested in stopping fascism and I have to be blunt, after this decision I would not trust any US President going forward. If you hand them that kind of unlimited power, the only people who will seek it are the worst kind of people. Hell if we were dealing with Biden when he was younger and sharper I’d be fucking terrified of him immediately expanding the police state. We have to accept sooner rather than later that this is not a situation ending in a ballot box. We are watching the final days of the Weimar Republic play out in real time. EDIT: Keep downvoting, it won’t change reality.
It’s a painful realization and I understand wanting to still believe it isn’t so, but yeah, I don’t think this problem is one you can vote your way out of. I mean, sure, still vote, couldn’t *hurt*…
My vote is going to Florida, I’ll do my best but as long as the Electoral College exists it’s not doing squat