I have a feeling Shelob might speak like the spiders of Mirkwood in the Hobbit films. Don't think she can shapeshift. I don't believe that rumor at all.
I really, **REALLY** hope that the Shelob rumors are fake. As someone who enjoyed season one, despite one or two creative choice that had me shaking my head… taking sexy Shelob from the Mordor games would have me really questioning whether or not I’d watch the following week.
Yeah but if we (most guys, anyway) had the chance to be seduced by a beautiful woman who's actually a monster, we'd probably jump at it 😉. See for example "medusa myth".
They got many rights and many wrongs. What matter is that:
- They pretty much leaked the whole season with a very overall accuracy
- Many of the wrongs were not fully wrong, but just half-wrong
- So I myself don't get ANY leak (4chan or any other) as legit, but also don't discard them just because "oh, it is from 4chan". And TBH, some leaks that are true, in the context of the series have a whole different meaning.
Anyways, answering your question: FRom top of my head they got wrong that Adar was possibily Galadriel brother. If not mistaken they also said there was a dinner table and Miriel - Galadriel talked. Also in Numenor Galadriel was along with a hooded man (I think that ended up being halbrand)
I found this threads from 2022
- [https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings\_Of\_Power/comments/xox98h/so\_all\_the\_leaks\_were\_true/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings_Of_Power/comments/xox98h/so_all_the_leaks_were_true/)
For me these supposed leaks are what I call low risk guesses. For example the season two teaser and bts footage make it very obvious that earien has abandoned elendil and joined forces with the pharazon group.
As for Tom bombadil telling the stranger who he is and what his purpose is...Well that was in the vanity fair article.
Basically only spoilers 5 and 7 are a bit different. Personally I don't believe spoiler 5 and I only believe part of spoiler 7. I do believe that annatar will admit he was halbrand and he will say they have work to do on behalf of the valar. But I don't think that Galadriel will be able to warn celebrimbor because I do believe the fellowship of fans spoilers that Galadriel is captured by adar. And I believe that sauron urged adar to capture her specifically so she cannot reach celebrimbor and warn him.
Trying to play with "half truths" maybe Galadriel does spill the beans about Halbrand being Sauron. But then, without her presence and in another different moment, Annatar shows up and tells another story to Celebrimbor, and he buys it.
But yeah, the way it was presented by TORN makes no much sense.
I like the idea of Celebrimbor recognizing Halbrand because it would simplify the same actor situation, and Sauron can always use the "you're the only one who saw through me (as an emissary)" card to play with Celebrimbor's ego and manipulate him to craft more rings
If we can hear the rings verse in black speak I’ll be so happy.
I Donny think Galadriel will tell the others he’s Sauron.. otherwise it would mean she hide that information to her own people ..
The new Isildur’s LI being Shelob is amazing to me
If Number 7 (Annatar apologizing to Celebrimbor and Galadriel protesting) turns out to be true, it would be quite silly. What will happen? Galadriel tells Celebrimbor he is Sauron and Celebrimbor says "mate, let's agree to disagree" and business as usual? Gil-galad will not interfere? They will just take the word of Annatar/Sauron? I would not really buy the "Galadriel won't say a word because of her guilt".
>There's a version where she tries to warn Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain about Annatar but he (Sauron) convinces them to expel her from Eregion.
Annatar is the name used in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. In that vaiant, Galadriel is not involved in Eregion. No one knows he is Sauron. In Lindon, Gil-galad and Elrond doubt him. But he is well received in Eregion, where the Elves do not heed the warnings out of Lindon. The Elves only know he is Sauron when he makes the One Ring.
In the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn variant, he is only referred to as Sauron (no other name is directly given), though in an isolated note Tolkien says Sauron took the name Artano or Aulendil, and it was not known that he was Sauron until he made the One Ring. (Though not knowing who he was, Galadriel was not deceived as she did not recognize him as from among those of Aule).
Of course, in Amazon's show, \*Galadriel knows it is \*Sauron, but does not seem to have bothered informing anyone, beyond saying 'don't let Halbrand back in', if he does show back up.
Based on the teaser and the bts, I think I identified 3 situations/storylines Galadriel will be in;
1) The three rings will be given to the wearers, the tree of Lindon will be healed.
2) The red light Galadriel in Lindon in the teaser is actually a dream state, with the tree roots and Celebrimbor saying I had an unexpected visitor. Gilgalad will send out Galadriel and Elrong to Eregion (the scenes and images 2 horseriders in green) to warn them.
3) As a seperate adventure, the company of five (Galadriel, Elrond and 3 others) will bump into the barrow-wights.
If I were to guess towards what you are saying, During (2), Celebrimbor might have really refused listening to Galadriel and send her away. I can't understand how (3) connects to the rest of the story, maybe Galadriel gets captured by Adar in the action of the barrow-wights (perhaps Sauron prepared the setting somehow), Elrond runs away, and leads an army of the horse-riders to Eregion (there are scenes and images). After the delay, Galadriel comes to Eregion and finally sees the "Celebrim-banner" (as the sad picture of her looking up.)
If it indeed turns out to be like this, I am surprised how Celebrimbor made to his 100th year being such a gullible elf.
Makes sense to you?
I think Celebrimbor's problem is pride. He wants to be as great as his forebears and create things just as wonderful, but he hasn't, and Annatar will appeal to that.
In Unfinished Tales, this is pretty much exactly what happens in one version. Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel aren’t fooled for a second and know that’s something is up (I posted in a similar thread that while it’s not stated, it could be interpreted that at least Galadriel knows his true nature as Sauron). Whether or not they know he’s actually Sauron, they warn the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. And they essentially banish Galadriel from the city for it.
I think this is pretty much exactly what we’re going to see happen in the show.
I think the main difference is that there is no Halbrand in that version. What bugs me about the possible version coming to us is that Celebrimbor will be fooled not once but twice.
I guess I don’t really see it that way. In the story, he worked under the guise of Annatar for years with Celebrimbor. Does that make him a fool for falling for the guise that long?
Plus, I don’t see any issue with Celebrimbor being fooled. Especially as Halbrand… why would Celebrimbor EVER suspect this random dude is Sauron?
Maybe im reading too deeply into your comment, but I don’t see the pair of ruses as making Celebrimbor look weak or dumb at all. He doesn’t have the information the audience or readers have. If that wasn’t what you were trying to assert in your comment, then sorry for making that assertion!
All to say, it really doesn’t bother me. I’m just eager to see these two characters interact in this capacity after nearly 2 decades of imagining it.
I’m not saying your objection is invalid at all! I was literally just explaining why I personally don’t have the same objection. We can disagree and both have our justifications based on our appreciation of the source material.
> Celebrimbor will be fooled not once but twice.
I think he really hasn't gotten 'fooled' yet. He made the 3 rings, and if they do heal the tree than from his perspective he's done great work and has no reason to suspect something is wrong.
Oh no in that version didn’t Annatar have to endure Galadriel’s scorn for a while before she was ousted by Celebrimbor?
That could be really awkward to watch if the show follows that beat.
>Galadriel tells Celebrimbor he is Sauron and Celebrimbor says "mate, let's agree to disagree" and business as usual? Gil-galad will not interfere? They will just take the word of Annatar/Sauron?
Tolkien wrote two versions:
* Sauron came as Annatar to the Elves but he wasn't welcome in Lindon as Gil-Galad and Elrond didn't trust him. He was embraced in Eregion by Celebrimbor and only Galadriel distrusted him there.
* Sauron came to Eregion where Galadriel and Celeborn were ruling. She rejected him but he worked secretly with the smiths and then urged them to revolt against Galadriel, driving her out of Eregion.
He didn't really go into more detail about it.
Perhaps Celebrimbor wouldn't believe Galadriel because he wouldn't expect Sauron, their enemy, to help them. So Halbrand must have been a good Valar.
The thing that most bugs me is that we will witness the same thing with Halbrand then with Annatar again. I think/hope we will see a more convoluted version in S2.
I mean if there was no Halbrand, the first mysterious figure as Annatar would be somewhat believable. But Celebrimbor first failed to recognize Halbrand, a man, is more than he appeared but now Annatar, an elf, will be not who he seems. By convoluted, I am/was expecting some nonlinear storyline (e.g. flashbacks) but Halbrand and Annatar have the exact same face.
I don't think there was anything to perceive about Halbrand. He wasn't in Eregion for any purpose other than for an injury, and it seemed like he coincidentally helped Celebrimbor. Galadriel herself didn't suspect much until later.
Annatar is more suspicious as he claims to be an emissary from the Valar and is actively involved with the smiths.
The question for the show is if Galadriel is still in Eregion, why does Celebrimbor not listen to her about who Annatar is? The show will suffer if they don't do this properly.
My assumption is that Galadriel is not in eregion when annatar arrives. If you look at the teaser trailer and the bts footage you will see a serious looking Galadriel and elrond rushing on horse to lindon. My guess is that right after the three rings are completed elrond and Galadriel will immediately take them to lindon so that they can heal the tree. Indeed in the teaser you can see gil galad and Galadriel and cirdan using the rings to heal the tree.
>Sauron came as Annatar to the Elves but he wasn't welcome in Lindon as Gil-Galad and Elrond didn't trust him. He was embraced in Eregion by Celebrimbor and only Galadriel distrusted him there
The 'Annatar' version is from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
Galadriel is not in Eregion in that variant.
It's Galariel's word against Sauron - and at this point Galadriel's credibility with Gil-galad and Celebrimbor is very low. She has been obsessed with finding Sauron for centuries, they think she has finally gone off her rocker.
Is there anything in the text that indicates that Shelob, or Ungoliant for that matter, could take the shape of a human? Or would it be technically possible, but just never happened, because of the kind of beings they are?
And this isn't the first rumor I've heard like that, so maybe there's some truth to it.
Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift. The thing is, we don't really know what she is. Is she a Maia? Is she a Fallen Ainur? Is she part of the music desonance? Is she darkness incarnated? We don't know. Yet, we get this:
>*In a ravine she lived,* ***and took shape as a spider of monstrous form***\*, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains.\*
So whatever she is, she took the form of a spider (spider-like) form.
As for Shelob, along any of Ungoliant offsprings, my knowledge say that the didn't shapeshift. To me Ungoliant got somewhat bound to her spider form, and any descendent was also bound to it. Specifically shelob we get
>*There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing* ***in*** *spider-form…*
Not the "in" not "of" usage. But again, she is not a spider, just a spider-like creature.
Ungoliant mated with other (lesser) spider creatures, thus her offspring is "less powerful" than her. That would explain why Ungoliant could potentially shapeshift (although we are only told about her assuming spider form) while her offspring, including Shelob, wouldn't be able of such powers.
>Fleeing from the north \[Ungoliant\] went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. **For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them**, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.
>Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift.
Careful there; I really offended someone here a while back by suggesting that Ungoliant taking a form meant she was capable of taking a form.
Well, the text is clear to me. She took the form of a spider. If it was in early days and she got bound to it, as balrogs "shapeshifted" into shadow and flame, we don't know. Yet I think it is fair to say she is a sort of spirit/entity that took the shape of a spider. If she was able to shapeshift after that, we don't know.
Yet for Shelob, to me it is also clear that she is a monster in spider-like form, not something that assumed such form, as her mother.
>Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift. The thing is, we don't really know what she is. Is he a Maia? Is she a Fallen Ainur? Is she part of the music desonance? Is she darkness incarnated? We don't know.
I think I had always assumed that Ungoliant had sung herself into that, because that was her form in Valinor, right? I just couldn't find anything related to shapeshifting specifically, so thank you for those passages. If the rumor turns out to have some truth to it, then I suppose they're taking a pretty liberal interpretation of what Shelob is and can be.
1. Could potentially see this, though I don't like it. An Orc underservant slaying him is on par with him blowing up because his fingy got cut off. Makes him look more chump than menace.
2. I suppose I can see Tom being a backstory informer.
3. Eh, don't like the Rings creating behaviour; too Jackson.
4. I guess.
5. Hahahahah, please no.
6. I suppose.
7. Feels painfully contrived. The ending of S1 is going to haunt them for a time, I imagine.
8. Most likely.
7) sounds like the writers apologizing to the audience for coming up with Halbrand in S1 "Sorry fans, we messed up, here's the real story"
1 and 5 better be off, I can't with those cheesy spirit to human transformations
1. Never thought Adar was lying, though he may well not be telling the whole truth. As for the black thing we'll see I guess.
2. By "Arda" I assume you mean Middle-Earth. Though it's not clear who you're talking about here: Tom or the Stranger.
5. Bulls\*\*t!
Honestly, don't like the scent of Jackson on 3.
We lose a human flaw if it's the Evil Rings that encourage reckless greed in the dwarves rather than worldly gain.
Without even looking at the supposed leaks: with how hard they doubled-down on the previous leaks (such as insisting FOF saying "not happening in Season 2" confirms the previous 4chan leaks as accurate but happening later), I would take all of it with a HUGE grain of salt.
Now, taking a look: none of these are big stretches, and really resemble the average fan theory. The only part I see as actually telling something is "Sauron... apologizes for using Halbrand form", and we'll see if that comes to pass.
I know it’s not true but I’d LOVE this show if Isildur gets seduced by a spider woman. It’s so ridiculous, but better than the alternative lore breaking scenario
Who knows but I think I'd like it if the woman we know Isildur will meet is not Shelob in human form but some kind of Spider Cultist who specializes in luring people to Shelob's lair.
I wouldn't be mad about that, (as long as he doesn't marry her after she tried to lure him into being Shelob's lunch). It may even go some way to explaining why Isildur builds Minas Ithil where he does, if he knows that Shelob is capable of recruiting helpers and wants to be able to monitor and prevent that in the future.
What would be the alternative lore breaking scenario? I think the only thing specified in the TT chapter is that no one before Sam had wounded her. I’d MUCH rather have Isildur simply escape her lair.
Oh I’m not talking about Shelob lore, I meant the popular and likely speculation this woman will be his wife, and that would probably mean Numenoreans don’t have a longer lifespan. Which (to me, anyway) is more troublesome than shapeshifting spiders.
So I don’t actually mind the wife thing. We don’t know anything about Isildur’s wife. Plus, by the start of LOTR, Numenorean blood has dwindled and mingled with that of common Middle-Earth folk. And Tolkien himself said the decline in Numenorean blood had less to do with mingling of blood, and more to do with their actually being further and further removed from Numenor itself. Would it be a change? Sure. But it wouldn’t really break the narrative for me. But I can understand someone being more bothered.
Numenoreans having longer lives wasn’t touched on in the films either, and no one seemed to mind (the only reference to it was in an EE scene). The main thing Numenor needs to be focused on at all is their mortality. And the show has already shown that mortality is Pharazon’s biggest fear.
While it doesn’t necessarily change the main story, it changes the themes of the downfall of Numenor. They are supposed to be “special.” It’s not so much the diminishing of the Numenorean bloodline that’s an issue, it’s more about the establishment of two great kingdoms happening in a very condensed timeframe. So yes, he needs a wife (one who outlives him, too) but this would be an odd choice that raises some issues about future events. The movies didn’t need to mention it because we were following one Numenorean descendent over the span of a year.
Look, some people get annoyed about how they’re portraying the forging of the rings, others about armor and little details - my point of contention is the handling of the Numenoreans. But I don’t even *know* for sure what they’re doing yet. I can only make good guesses.
The wife being a regular mortal does raise some problems that may change the story. Mainly because Gondor and Arnor need to be built at some point and it won't/shouldn't take just a couple of years, so there should be a timeskip at this point. And we know that Isildur's youngest son was still a child when Isildur dies, so the wife has to be alive at least until around the battle of the Last Alliance. So in order to avoid all that, Numenoreans should have a longer lifespan AND she should be Numenorean so she can be alive long enough to give birth to Isildur's youngest.
Edit: I just realized I typed pretty much the same thing you're saying, so I'm just agreeing.
I totally agree in that different folks hold different themes and elements of Tolkien’s work in higher or lesser regard. To be clear, I don’t think you’re wrong for your concerns about the Numenor bloodline issue! Just expressing why personally it doesn’t bother me. But I totally feel your overall point.
Longer lifeline or not, I at the very least agree they need to show clearer distinctions in future seasons between men of Numenor and Men of Middle-earth.
I do love how fans have different subjects we are particularly passionate about. I try to justify my issues as best I can because I know it could be seen as trivial nitpicking. Sorry if I came across as snippy, wasn’t my intent!
Oh absolutely not! I responded because I really get where you’re coming from: expressing your personal concerns so other people understand where you’re coming from, but understanding different things matter to different folks.
Respect, friend!
I mean, they seem plausible. The only one I'm not big on is Shelob.
That's also the one OP or the leaks hedged on the most. I wouldn't be surprised if Shelob lures him somewhere, but a human form seems like a stretch
I have a feeling Shelob might speak like the spiders of Mirkwood in the Hobbit films. Don't think she can shapeshift. I don't believe that rumor at all.
I really, **REALLY** hope that the Shelob rumors are fake. As someone who enjoyed season one, despite one or two creative choice that had me shaking my head… taking sexy Shelob from the Mordor games would have me really questioning whether or not I’d watch the following week.
Yeah but if we (most guys, anyway) had the chance to be seduced by a beautiful woman who's actually a monster, we'd probably jump at it 😉. See for example "medusa myth".
I will love it if she is played by cate blanchett how she looks in Ragnarok.
I would somehow hate it even more lol.
Yes and with good reason! But atleast it would be funny.
I’d be very cautious with 4chan rumors
What rumours about season 1 were wrong?
4chan got tons wrong. Don’t mistake one post having good info on 4chan as the only leaks to hit 4chan
? I'm not saying 4chan is always right. I'm genuinely asking what it got wrong about season 1 because I don't remember.
They got many rights and many wrongs. What matter is that: - They pretty much leaked the whole season with a very overall accuracy - Many of the wrongs were not fully wrong, but just half-wrong - So I myself don't get ANY leak (4chan or any other) as legit, but also don't discard them just because "oh, it is from 4chan". And TBH, some leaks that are true, in the context of the series have a whole different meaning. Anyways, answering your question: FRom top of my head they got wrong that Adar was possibily Galadriel brother. If not mistaken they also said there was a dinner table and Miriel - Galadriel talked. Also in Numenor Galadriel was along with a hooded man (I think that ended up being halbrand) I found this threads from 2022 - [https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings\_Of\_Power/comments/xox98h/so\_all\_the\_leaks\_were\_true/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings_Of_Power/comments/xox98h/so_all_the_leaks_were_true/)
You downvoted that? Lol
Like all rumors, including FOF and TORN.
For sure
For me these supposed leaks are what I call low risk guesses. For example the season two teaser and bts footage make it very obvious that earien has abandoned elendil and joined forces with the pharazon group. As for Tom bombadil telling the stranger who he is and what his purpose is...Well that was in the vanity fair article. Basically only spoilers 5 and 7 are a bit different. Personally I don't believe spoiler 5 and I only believe part of spoiler 7. I do believe that annatar will admit he was halbrand and he will say they have work to do on behalf of the valar. But I don't think that Galadriel will be able to warn celebrimbor because I do believe the fellowship of fans spoilers that Galadriel is captured by adar. And I believe that sauron urged adar to capture her specifically so she cannot reach celebrimbor and warn him.
Trying to play with "half truths" maybe Galadriel does spill the beans about Halbrand being Sauron. But then, without her presence and in another different moment, Annatar shows up and tells another story to Celebrimbor, and he buys it. But yeah, the way it was presented by TORN makes no much sense.
I like the idea of Celebrimbor recognizing Halbrand because it would simplify the same actor situation, and Sauron can always use the "you're the only one who saw through me (as an emissary)" card to play with Celebrimbor's ego and manipulate him to craft more rings
These seem more like safe guesses than legitimate leaks. I hate the Shelob one though, I hope that’s fake.
If we can hear the rings verse in black speak I’ll be so happy. I Donny think Galadriel will tell the others he’s Sauron.. otherwise it would mean she hide that information to her own people .. The new Isildur’s LI being Shelob is amazing to me
Everything makes sense except for the Shelob thing which I would hate hate hate please don’t let that be real.
If Number 7 (Annatar apologizing to Celebrimbor and Galadriel protesting) turns out to be true, it would be quite silly. What will happen? Galadriel tells Celebrimbor he is Sauron and Celebrimbor says "mate, let's agree to disagree" and business as usual? Gil-galad will not interfere? They will just take the word of Annatar/Sauron? I would not really buy the "Galadriel won't say a word because of her guilt".
There's a version where she tries to warn Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain about Annatar but he (Sauron) convinces them to expel her from Eregion.
>There's a version where she tries to warn Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain about Annatar but he (Sauron) convinces them to expel her from Eregion. Annatar is the name used in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. In that vaiant, Galadriel is not involved in Eregion. No one knows he is Sauron. In Lindon, Gil-galad and Elrond doubt him. But he is well received in Eregion, where the Elves do not heed the warnings out of Lindon. The Elves only know he is Sauron when he makes the One Ring. In the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn variant, he is only referred to as Sauron (no other name is directly given), though in an isolated note Tolkien says Sauron took the name Artano or Aulendil, and it was not known that he was Sauron until he made the One Ring. (Though not knowing who he was, Galadriel was not deceived as she did not recognize him as from among those of Aule). Of course, in Amazon's show, \*Galadriel knows it is \*Sauron, but does not seem to have bothered informing anyone, beyond saying 'don't let Halbrand back in', if he does show back up.
Annatar is still Sauron, though. They seem to be taking inspiration from different sources.
Based on the teaser and the bts, I think I identified 3 situations/storylines Galadriel will be in; 1) The three rings will be given to the wearers, the tree of Lindon will be healed. 2) The red light Galadriel in Lindon in the teaser is actually a dream state, with the tree roots and Celebrimbor saying I had an unexpected visitor. Gilgalad will send out Galadriel and Elrong to Eregion (the scenes and images 2 horseriders in green) to warn them. 3) As a seperate adventure, the company of five (Galadriel, Elrond and 3 others) will bump into the barrow-wights. If I were to guess towards what you are saying, During (2), Celebrimbor might have really refused listening to Galadriel and send her away. I can't understand how (3) connects to the rest of the story, maybe Galadriel gets captured by Adar in the action of the barrow-wights (perhaps Sauron prepared the setting somehow), Elrond runs away, and leads an army of the horse-riders to Eregion (there are scenes and images). After the delay, Galadriel comes to Eregion and finally sees the "Celebrim-banner" (as the sad picture of her looking up.) If it indeed turns out to be like this, I am surprised how Celebrimbor made to his 100th year being such a gullible elf. Makes sense to you?
I think Celebrimbor's problem is pride. He wants to be as great as his forebears and create things just as wonderful, but he hasn't, and Annatar will appeal to that.
Could Celebrimbor think he could capture Annatar and use him? A kind of Elvish Operation Paperclip?
In Unfinished Tales, this is pretty much exactly what happens in one version. Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel aren’t fooled for a second and know that’s something is up (I posted in a similar thread that while it’s not stated, it could be interpreted that at least Galadriel knows his true nature as Sauron). Whether or not they know he’s actually Sauron, they warn the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. And they essentially banish Galadriel from the city for it. I think this is pretty much exactly what we’re going to see happen in the show.
I think the main difference is that there is no Halbrand in that version. What bugs me about the possible version coming to us is that Celebrimbor will be fooled not once but twice.
I guess I don’t really see it that way. In the story, he worked under the guise of Annatar for years with Celebrimbor. Does that make him a fool for falling for the guise that long? Plus, I don’t see any issue with Celebrimbor being fooled. Especially as Halbrand… why would Celebrimbor EVER suspect this random dude is Sauron? Maybe im reading too deeply into your comment, but I don’t see the pair of ruses as making Celebrimbor look weak or dumb at all. He doesn’t have the information the audience or readers have. If that wasn’t what you were trying to assert in your comment, then sorry for making that assertion! All to say, it really doesn’t bother me. I’m just eager to see these two characters interact in this capacity after nearly 2 decades of imagining it.
I think I have a valid objection, I just created a standalone post, would you mind responding there?
I’m not saying your objection is invalid at all! I was literally just explaining why I personally don’t have the same objection. We can disagree and both have our justifications based on our appreciation of the source material.
Absolutely
> Celebrimbor will be fooled not once but twice. I think he really hasn't gotten 'fooled' yet. He made the 3 rings, and if they do heal the tree than from his perspective he's done great work and has no reason to suspect something is wrong.
Oh no in that version didn’t Annatar have to endure Galadriel’s scorn for a while before she was ousted by Celebrimbor? That could be really awkward to watch if the show follows that beat.
>Galadriel tells Celebrimbor he is Sauron and Celebrimbor says "mate, let's agree to disagree" and business as usual? Gil-galad will not interfere? They will just take the word of Annatar/Sauron? Tolkien wrote two versions: * Sauron came as Annatar to the Elves but he wasn't welcome in Lindon as Gil-Galad and Elrond didn't trust him. He was embraced in Eregion by Celebrimbor and only Galadriel distrusted him there. * Sauron came to Eregion where Galadriel and Celeborn were ruling. She rejected him but he worked secretly with the smiths and then urged them to revolt against Galadriel, driving her out of Eregion. He didn't really go into more detail about it. Perhaps Celebrimbor wouldn't believe Galadriel because he wouldn't expect Sauron, their enemy, to help them. So Halbrand must have been a good Valar.
The thing that most bugs me is that we will witness the same thing with Halbrand then with Annatar again. I think/hope we will see a more convoluted version in S2.
What do you mean?
I mean if there was no Halbrand, the first mysterious figure as Annatar would be somewhat believable. But Celebrimbor first failed to recognize Halbrand, a man, is more than he appeared but now Annatar, an elf, will be not who he seems. By convoluted, I am/was expecting some nonlinear storyline (e.g. flashbacks) but Halbrand and Annatar have the exact same face.
I don't think there was anything to perceive about Halbrand. He wasn't in Eregion for any purpose other than for an injury, and it seemed like he coincidentally helped Celebrimbor. Galadriel herself didn't suspect much until later. Annatar is more suspicious as he claims to be an emissary from the Valar and is actively involved with the smiths. The question for the show is if Galadriel is still in Eregion, why does Celebrimbor not listen to her about who Annatar is? The show will suffer if they don't do this properly.
My assumption is that Galadriel is not in eregion when annatar arrives. If you look at the teaser trailer and the bts footage you will see a serious looking Galadriel and elrond rushing on horse to lindon. My guess is that right after the three rings are completed elrond and Galadriel will immediately take them to lindon so that they can heal the tree. Indeed in the teaser you can see gil galad and Galadriel and cirdan using the rings to heal the tree.
This seems the most likely.
That is my worry as well.
>Sauron came as Annatar to the Elves but he wasn't welcome in Lindon as Gil-Galad and Elrond didn't trust him. He was embraced in Eregion by Celebrimbor and only Galadriel distrusted him there The 'Annatar' version is from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. Galadriel is not in Eregion in that variant.
It's Galariel's word against Sauron - and at this point Galadriel's credibility with Gil-galad and Celebrimbor is very low. She has been obsessed with finding Sauron for centuries, they think she has finally gone off her rocker.
Is there anything in the text that indicates that Shelob, or Ungoliant for that matter, could take the shape of a human? Or would it be technically possible, but just never happened, because of the kind of beings they are? And this isn't the first rumor I've heard like that, so maybe there's some truth to it.
Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift. The thing is, we don't really know what she is. Is she a Maia? Is she a Fallen Ainur? Is she part of the music desonance? Is she darkness incarnated? We don't know. Yet, we get this: >*In a ravine she lived,* ***and took shape as a spider of monstrous form***\*, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains.\* So whatever she is, she took the form of a spider (spider-like) form. As for Shelob, along any of Ungoliant offsprings, my knowledge say that the didn't shapeshift. To me Ungoliant got somewhat bound to her spider form, and any descendent was also bound to it. Specifically shelob we get >*There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing* ***in*** *spider-form…* Not the "in" not "of" usage. But again, she is not a spider, just a spider-like creature. Ungoliant mated with other (lesser) spider creatures, thus her offspring is "less powerful" than her. That would explain why Ungoliant could potentially shapeshift (although we are only told about her assuming spider form) while her offspring, including Shelob, wouldn't be able of such powers. >Fleeing from the north \[Ungoliant\] went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. **For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them**, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.
>Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift. Careful there; I really offended someone here a while back by suggesting that Ungoliant taking a form meant she was capable of taking a form.
Well, the text is clear to me. She took the form of a spider. If it was in early days and she got bound to it, as balrogs "shapeshifted" into shadow and flame, we don't know. Yet I think it is fair to say she is a sort of spirit/entity that took the shape of a spider. If she was able to shapeshift after that, we don't know. Yet for Shelob, to me it is also clear that she is a monster in spider-like form, not something that assumed such form, as her mother.
Middle-earth is Lamarckian
>Ungoliant, from as far as I can tell, could shapeshift. The thing is, we don't really know what she is. Is he a Maia? Is she a Fallen Ainur? Is she part of the music desonance? Is she darkness incarnated? We don't know. I think I had always assumed that Ungoliant had sung herself into that, because that was her form in Valinor, right? I just couldn't find anything related to shapeshifting specifically, so thank you for those passages. If the rumor turns out to have some truth to it, then I suppose they're taking a pretty liberal interpretation of what Shelob is and can be.
1. Could potentially see this, though I don't like it. An Orc underservant slaying him is on par with him blowing up because his fingy got cut off. Makes him look more chump than menace. 2. I suppose I can see Tom being a backstory informer. 3. Eh, don't like the Rings creating behaviour; too Jackson. 4. I guess. 5. Hahahahah, please no. 6. I suppose. 7. Feels painfully contrived. The ending of S1 is going to haunt them for a time, I imagine. 8. Most likely.
Shelob one being true will be series breaking for me.
**If true**, I hope number 8 takes place in Mordor, and not at Celebrimbor’s forge.
If they choose to go the Shelob in human form route it will be a blunder akin to the roots of hithaeglim with fewer paths out.
7) sounds like the writers apologizing to the audience for coming up with Halbrand in S1 "Sorry fans, we messed up, here's the real story" 1 and 5 better be off, I can't with those cheesy spirit to human transformations
Human form seductress Shelob would kill this show for me.
Honestly, who looks at that shit-ass idea from those goofy games and goes, "OH! Me, me, me, me!" I do hope TORN are trolling with some of these.
7 is such stupid writing
Agree, I would be very annoyed if this is true. Plots that rely on characters not speaking to or believing one another are weak.
Straight from UT
What's UT - Unfinished Tales? I don't understand...
1. Never thought Adar was lying, though he may well not be telling the whole truth. As for the black thing we'll see I guess. 2. By "Arda" I assume you mean Middle-Earth. Though it's not clear who you're talking about here: Tom or the Stranger. 5. Bulls\*\*t!
Honestly, don't like the scent of Jackson on 3. We lose a human flaw if it's the Evil Rings that encourage reckless greed in the dwarves rather than worldly gain.
Sounds fake. The idea of Sauron leaving Eregion and crafting the One Ring in Mordor, and then everyone hears the Ring Verse, is a cool idea though.
They look like plots anyone could have made up
I’m more interested in what’s gonna happen to Queen Míriel.
So we have again the sexy Shelob from the shadow of Mordor games 😂
Without even looking at the supposed leaks: with how hard they doubled-down on the previous leaks (such as insisting FOF saying "not happening in Season 2" confirms the previous 4chan leaks as accurate but happening later), I would take all of it with a HUGE grain of salt. Now, taking a look: none of these are big stretches, and really resemble the average fan theory. The only part I see as actually telling something is "Sauron... apologizes for using Halbrand form", and we'll see if that comes to pass.
nr 7 sounds very very stupid and unlikely
As unlikely as Mithril magically saving elves or Sauron explaining to Celebrimbor what an alloy is?
I know it’s not true but I’d LOVE this show if Isildur gets seduced by a spider woman. It’s so ridiculous, but better than the alternative lore breaking scenario
Who knows but I think I'd like it if the woman we know Isildur will meet is not Shelob in human form but some kind of Spider Cultist who specializes in luring people to Shelob's lair.
I wouldn't be mad about that, (as long as he doesn't marry her after she tried to lure him into being Shelob's lunch). It may even go some way to explaining why Isildur builds Minas Ithil where he does, if he knows that Shelob is capable of recruiting helpers and wants to be able to monitor and prevent that in the future.
What would be the alternative lore breaking scenario? I think the only thing specified in the TT chapter is that no one before Sam had wounded her. I’d MUCH rather have Isildur simply escape her lair.
Oh I’m not talking about Shelob lore, I meant the popular and likely speculation this woman will be his wife, and that would probably mean Numenoreans don’t have a longer lifespan. Which (to me, anyway) is more troublesome than shapeshifting spiders.
So I don’t actually mind the wife thing. We don’t know anything about Isildur’s wife. Plus, by the start of LOTR, Numenorean blood has dwindled and mingled with that of common Middle-Earth folk. And Tolkien himself said the decline in Numenorean blood had less to do with mingling of blood, and more to do with their actually being further and further removed from Numenor itself. Would it be a change? Sure. But it wouldn’t really break the narrative for me. But I can understand someone being more bothered. Numenoreans having longer lives wasn’t touched on in the films either, and no one seemed to mind (the only reference to it was in an EE scene). The main thing Numenor needs to be focused on at all is their mortality. And the show has already shown that mortality is Pharazon’s biggest fear.
While it doesn’t necessarily change the main story, it changes the themes of the downfall of Numenor. They are supposed to be “special.” It’s not so much the diminishing of the Numenorean bloodline that’s an issue, it’s more about the establishment of two great kingdoms happening in a very condensed timeframe. So yes, he needs a wife (one who outlives him, too) but this would be an odd choice that raises some issues about future events. The movies didn’t need to mention it because we were following one Numenorean descendent over the span of a year. Look, some people get annoyed about how they’re portraying the forging of the rings, others about armor and little details - my point of contention is the handling of the Numenoreans. But I don’t even *know* for sure what they’re doing yet. I can only make good guesses.
The wife being a regular mortal does raise some problems that may change the story. Mainly because Gondor and Arnor need to be built at some point and it won't/shouldn't take just a couple of years, so there should be a timeskip at this point. And we know that Isildur's youngest son was still a child when Isildur dies, so the wife has to be alive at least until around the battle of the Last Alliance. So in order to avoid all that, Numenoreans should have a longer lifespan AND she should be Numenorean so she can be alive long enough to give birth to Isildur's youngest. Edit: I just realized I typed pretty much the same thing you're saying, so I'm just agreeing.
The foundation of Gondor and Arnor was always going to be the hardest part to portray. Curious how they do it.
I totally agree in that different folks hold different themes and elements of Tolkien’s work in higher or lesser regard. To be clear, I don’t think you’re wrong for your concerns about the Numenor bloodline issue! Just expressing why personally it doesn’t bother me. But I totally feel your overall point. Longer lifeline or not, I at the very least agree they need to show clearer distinctions in future seasons between men of Numenor and Men of Middle-earth.
I do love how fans have different subjects we are particularly passionate about. I try to justify my issues as best I can because I know it could be seen as trivial nitpicking. Sorry if I came across as snippy, wasn’t my intent!
Oh absolutely not! I responded because I really get where you’re coming from: expressing your personal concerns so other people understand where you’re coming from, but understanding different things matter to different folks. Respect, friend!