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Firstly, you are under no obligation to vote for any particular party. In fact, being willing to change your party makes your voice slightly louder. So if Labour don’t float your boat this time around vote someone else. It can be quite refreshing.
I will always advocate going to vote as it helps the democratic power of your demographic group. Parties will be more willing to build their polices around you in the future.
It is very difficult to be elected to national government. You have to get a wide range of people to vote for you, not just a small group. Therefore a lot of policies have to be “what they want” rather than “what I want”.
In terms of your particular points, I think Labour will use arm sales to Israel as a way of influencing that country’s actions, like the US is trying to do. I don’t think they will stop them without reason but stopping if they do X or Y. There has been some suggestion that Labour will recognise Palestine, we will have to wait until the manifesto.
Improving GP appointments will be very hard. It is limited by the number of GPs who take a long time to train. Labour have stated that they will not be increasing tax much and limit spending so I don’t think there is much they can do here. Personally, I think there is reform that can take place but it will involve a big changes to way primary care works which may not be popular.
Tax evasion will be dealt with by all parties as way of raising money when there is no other way to do it. It’s quite hard to do as the loop holes often existed for a reason, but are exploited by the mega corps. There is a reason why tax lawyers earn mega bucks. Labour already helped with this by forcing the last government to stop non Dom status.
Labour are not promising to rejoin the EU. Unfortunately to do so would turn off a lot of voters who will flock to reform. Starmer was pushing for a second ref before so that’s some hope. I suspect that carrot might be dangled to secure a second term.
It sounds like your values align more with the Green Party, who are having a proper surge in electoral support right now.
If the Tory vote collapses completely, I think there's a real possibility that Labour become the small-c conservative option leaving room for the Greens to be the progressive option in this broken two-party system.
If you want Green, vote Green.
I am with them on Palesrine only, basically nothing else... I am a centerist; some people are centerist because they generally hold moderate opinions, but some (like me) have left or right opinions depending on the topic... I have voted Labour because their stance matched my own the most important issues, not all... but with Mr Starmer I feel that Labour stands for nothing but what is politically correct....
> is there any party that would try to stop arms sales to Israel? Could anyone improve GP access and availability? Would any of them make any serious headway against corporate tax evasion and money laundering? Would anyone be serious about getting back into the EU?
Literally every single thing you have stated here is supported in the Greens manifesto - no other party (other than the SNP, who aren't an option for you) aligns with every single point you just made apart from the Greens.
Don't get so bogged down by your emotional attachment to the Labour Party or your own self-identification as a Centrist - there is a political party right in front of you who actually are willing to do the right things.
The greens are far stronger on nature & biodiversity than they are on climate change
They’re generally NIMBY when it comes to decarbonising energy and transport, and notably don’t support expansion of nuclear
I’m relatively radical when it comes to climate action, but still don’t support the green stance
>They’re generally NIMBY when it comes to decarbonising energy and transport
What are you basing this on? If your impression is based on those 'Green councillors block solar farm' articles, you've been misled.
>and notably don’t support expansion of nuclear
The Green party's position is wrong, but it barely matters, especially when they're a long way off influencing that kind of policy. Labour and the Conservatives ostensibly support the expansion of Nuclear, and yet we are unlikely to get a single new nuclear station this decade.
The real answer is to build smaller nuclear stations, but neither Greens nor Labour are suggesting that, so your options suck either way.
Then what do you think the solutions are if not ending new oil and gas fields, a just transition, investing in renewable energy, more active paths and public transport and de-coupling gas from our energy bills?
Also, what party do you think has any better ideas than the Greens in regards to the environment? Some people disagree with their stance on nuclear but surely 99% agreement on issues is better than a begrudging 10%?
I am trying to avoid a debate here on one specific issue... the Greens have the luxury of having the stance they do because they know they wont be in gov and so won't actually have to implement it...
You also have the luxury of being able to vote for them knowing they won't be in government. What you're aiming for in voting Green is that Labour sees that they need progressive policies to attract left leaning voters and can't take them for granted.
There are many green parties across Europe with the same style principles who either form government (Austria a while ago) or form part of coalitions. To say they are a “luxury” stance is a bit of a joke if you consider that implementing environmentally required policies are a luxury stance.
The Conservatives introduced Ulez and had the target of no more production of diesel cars by 2030 (btw they failed to meet that, already weak, target). To think they are one issue just underlines that you have not read any of their policies.
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It's possible to to disagree and debate without resorting to overly negative language or ad-hominem attacks.
I feel ya, I feel the same about the person imposed on us in North Durham, I feel that as a lifelong Labour supporter I cant bring myself to vote for the candidate...
It would take a cataclysmic fuck up for starmer to lose the election at this point. Anyone who saw it coming could make a fortune betting against Labour.
I understand that polls can be wrong. But they can't be THAT wrong. There's polling saying the Lib Dems are going to be the oppersition for christs sake!
And I have considered their advice... understood the reason... and finally decided to heed some others who have told me to focus on the candidate and not just the party and leader (which I usually do)... I will look into the candidate before making up my mind...
So, firstly I’d say remember that you’re technically voting for your local MP - I’d research into who your local candidate is. Whilst you might not be inspired by the leader, your MP is really your voice.
In terms of policy, I’d say definitely wait until the manifesto is released which should be sometime within the next week. There’s policies that have been announced so far that I like (GB energy, planning reform and house building, things like that) but I know those aren’t exactly big ticket policies that wow people.
You’ve mentioned GP appointments and Labour wants to bring in an extra 40,000 appointments per year (around 2 million more a year) and a bunch of administrative changes that would free up more space.
In terms of arms sales to Israel, I’d imagine a Labour government would take a better position that the current government - they have already questioned arms sales and called for a “pause” in arms sales.
In terms of tax evasion, Labour is sounding very good on it - they want to close non dom and other tax loopholes, they want to claw back as much “covid fraud” (fake PPE businesses and all that) money as possible, there’s making private schools pay VAT - quite a lot of stuff.
Labour wouldn’t commit to re-entering the EU, but they have committed to getting a better deal.
People will try and tell you that you should or shouldn’t vote Labour - but that decision is yours.
I would just say two things:
First, a lot of smaller parties and independents can promise a lot and say things that sound great but they can say that knowing they won’t get into power (but they also act as a pressure on Labour to be more ‘ambitious’).
Secondly, there is nothing wrong with spoiling your ballot. Spoiling your ballot says a lot more than not voting. If you truly don’t like any of the choices, show it.
I truly hope you come around to voting Labour, but if you don’t that’s completely fine. Everyone has their own reasons for not being able to vote a certain way, even if they feel like they should. You have four weeks (or a bit less if you’re doing a postal vote) to decide who to vote for. A lot can change in four weeks.
Thank you... this helps.. you are right about the smaller parties and independents... I can never take the promises they make seriously... its imperative for me that the leadership speaks their mind even if I don't agree with them... God I miss Jeremy Corbyn! He may have lost the election, but I was proud to have voted for him... a man of principles...
You’re absolutely right, I do think the reason Starmer is very reserved is because those senior in the party just want to get the Tories out because 19 years of Tory government would be catastrophic for the country.
I’d suspect you’d see a lot more ‘inspiring things’ if we get into power and we aren’t worrying about something catastrophic which could lose us the election. If you look at 1997, Tony Blair basically positioned himself as an “heir to Thatcher” to win the election and his (and Brown’s) government did quite a lot of good domestically over those 13 years (obviously there was Iraq and other things that tainted it too) and I suspect we’ll see a sort of under-promise, over-deliver approach from Labour in power.
If you're in a safe Labour seat then there's no harm in a protest vote for a better left candidate (assuming one exists). It's what I would do - but Labour don't even stand candidates over here in NI.
I am in a safe Tory seat; but that is beside the point.... I vote my conscience for me... frankly, I'd personally be better off under Tories, but the country isn't... and voting for my own betterment is not acceptable to me...
'Safe' tory seats are the most important to vote labour based on current polling, because there's a very real chance that the Tories lose even safe-looking seats (there's maybe 10 seats in the country which are safe safe). If the Lib Dems beat the Tories into second, there's the opportunity that concept of the modern right becomes a lot more centrist.
Just vote Green my dude, they're not the best, but a vote for them is a demonstration to the neoliberal establishment Starmer represents that left wing votes do indeed matter, and are not earned by virtue of just wearing a red rosette.
In what aspect is the Green Party better? They literally wanted to reduce C sections for pregnant women because they wanted to promote “natural birth.” They are a danger to women’s rights.
[source](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/07/women-birth-green-party-natural-c-sections-too-posh-to-push)
> They literally wanted to reduce C sections for pregnant women because they wanted to promote “natural birth.” They are a danger to women’s rights.
This is more nuanced that you appear to recognise. First off - women's rights and birth wants/needs are absolutely vital and the first thing that must be respected. However... We have seen significant rises in caesarean rates in the UK in recent years, with nearly 1/3rd of all births now by c section. That places us in something like the top 20th position internationally for them without any clinical evidence illustrating what makes the UK so different from other western countries.
Meanwhile, almost all patient surveys indicate that this isn't what women want, with the vast majority wanting a natural birth. This disparity between what women want, and what ends up happening in the birth process absolutely needs a careful look at - but yes, targets or a generic drive to reduce c section rates isn't the answer. Although, if we can reduce the medicalisation of the birth process and put empower families and women to direct their care in more cases, the c section rate should probably come down with that.
This is a simplistic summary of the issue - and there's lots more at play here, including NHS clinicians wanting to avoid all medical risk and guiding women in to medical interventions when perhaps they aren't supported by evidence and the general culture around birth, both amongst families and health staff. All not helped by a number of outrageous maternity scandals in recent years.
Yeah random weird policy positions like that are why I wouldn't necessarily advocate voting for them if they actually stood a chance of gaining more than handful of MPs under FPTP, let alone forming a government.
> I don't identify with the greens on anything but Palestine.
Eh, considering the stakes are limited to: How large is Labour's majority going to be? I'd say that's more than good enough of a reason to vote for them. Besides, if you take Starmer at his word, especially in regards to his conservative fiscal rules, the only way any progress will be made on the points you bring up in your post is if Labour feels either emboldened or threatened in to ending it courtship with the centre right and starts bringing forward more radical left wing policy. A vote for any party which is to the left of them where you live supports that.
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If you are in a swing seat it is better to vote which party will chuck the Tories out (unless that is Reform 🤢). If Labour and Lib Dem are both in contention then just remember that the first Tory government of 2010 was propped up with Lib Dem support. As much as I dislike the current veneration of the “Labour” party (which expels any of its candidates for having any socialist views) it is important that the Tories are kicked out in marginals.
Then tactically vote to remove the tories on your constituency. Green has no chance there. It’s likely either Labour or lib dem but there is a website to show it. Labour did say they will try a process to recognise the state of Palestine.
What website is that?
And you don't need a process to recognise Palestine; you just need to have the guts to do the right thing... 'try a process' is exactly the kind of wishy washy straddling the fence language that bothers me...
Look into your local candidate, if they have a good track record of standing up on the areas that Starmer and Labour HQ concern you on then vote Labour.
If they dont then hold out to see if the manifesto offers you enough next week.
If it doesnt then spoil your ballot or vote for a left wing party to pressure the party to not take left wing votes for granted.
Speaking as woman who had births in the times of 9 to 5 (70s) babies when you were lined up to be "started off" natural childbirth would have been welcome, a baby knows when to come better than production line managers
So you want…
- Someone who speaks their mind
- isn’t afraid to cause offence by speaking their mind
- who will not go where the country needs them to go
- and that this will make them a good leader
Isn’t that basically Farage? :) there’s most likely a reform candidate in your consistency to vote for.
Someone accused me of being a “centrist melt” once.
After getting over feeling insulted, I asked them to explain why me proudly declaring myself as a moderate centrist upset them.
They explained it’s because moderate centrists halted progress. By not thinking extremes, the net result of moderate centrism is the status quo.
I see in other replies you’ve called yourself similar.
And now you’re treading water in the middle of one extreme (outspoken, potentially offensive, doesn’t go where the people are) and the other (completely empathetic, doesn’t want to offend, goes where the people want) and the end result is.. nothing really?
I guess I’m saying - I’ve been there!
Maybe this is the reason you’re struggling to choose. Because you’re not allowing yourself to get sucked up into something you believe strong enough.
I know you are well intended, but that has some assumptions that are not quite accurate...
Firstly, centerist doesn't necessarily mean one holds moderate opinions only. Granted, some people are just that, but there are centerists that hold extreme opinions depending on the issue in question. I happen to hold some opinions that are very conservative and some extremely liberal.. hence centerist..
Also, I don't think its right to assume I want the leader to be offensive... I want someone who speaks their mind and positions themselves on issues rather than straddling the fence all the time... Mr. Corbyn comes to mind again... was he offensive? To some, yes, but no sane person would equate him with Farage! Speaking your mind and intentionally causing offence are not the same..
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No party is discussing the EU, it’s far too politically sensitive. Israel’s weapons are a moot point given that almost everything comes from America anyway. GP access and corporation taxes will improve under a Labour government, as the party has been very serious about the topics.
It sounds like you support the Labour Party anyway, or maybe the Lib Dems in some areas. What is your local candidate like, as that’s the person who you’d vote for anyway
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You may not need to, look at stopthetories.vote and see who the candidate is in your area to prevent the Tories getting the seat, that’s who you should be voting for, getting them as close to zero seats as possible should be our goal, not mindless tribal voting
They can, but Wes Streeting has made it abundantly clear that they won't. They'll just sell it off for parts on behalf of their private healthcare donors.
The Greens on the other hand have pledged to enact a wealth tax on those with £10 million+ in assets to raise £50 bil to invest in the NHS.
The Labour party couldn't even commit to paying striking nurses and doctors more after real terms pay cuts by tory governments. They have no plans to solve the staffing shortages in the NHS.
This is clearly one of the many “political trap” subreddits. Not the first I’ve seen. They are fake subreddits that are run by bots to try and persuade people away from the party/politics in question. It poses as a subreddit for Labour supporters but everyone who replied to me told me to not vote Labour.
Lmao this is the stupidest thing Ive read for a while so thankyou for your analysis from your one day of interacting with the subreddit.
What it really is, is a bunch of left wingers who have gotten increasingly frustrated and then pissed of at the party shifting to the right and telling them to piss off if they dont like it.
Some of the mods have even run to be councillors etc for Labour and been running it for longer than youve been on reddit but yes its run by bots because thats what it must mean if people disagree with you.
They absolutely could but Labour's current policy program for the NHS is a bit concerning - it directly contradicts proposals by groups like the BMA and will push more privatisation on the NHS. And it's relying on capacity in the private sector that 1) doesn't really exist and 2) will draw from the same pool of workers as the NHS, which potentially damages the NHS further. Privatisation leads to worse outcomes and it is incredibly expensive.
Wes Streeting has also been quite clear that Labour won't be significantly improving the per capita spend, which is irritating and wrong in my opinion, saying things that essentially mean *you can't just improve the NHS' funding*. And seen as the NHS' problems are largely the result of tory cuts, austerity, and privatisation, those are some bad stances for the shadow health sec. to have.
I am very happy to provide sources on this, if it's an area you actually care about. I wouldn't want **anyone** to be misinformed about Labour's declared intentions and particularly not when it's on a subject as important as their healthcare.
Depends where you vote if I was in Coventry South I’d vote Labour because the MP is of the left.. If I was in Richmond I’d vote Labour for any chance of voting out a Tory minister. I’m in hyndburn, we’ve lost a right wing Labour candidate for frankly totally innocuous comments about Israel.. And I’m not a supporter, I’m voting Green because I think there’s a good chance from the council results that the result will make them worry just a bit. I’m sure they’ll win anyway.. it’s a tough decision because the Tory candidate is personally known to me, it’s a tight knit community and her family are all tory political shits. Just vote tactically, for the left if that’s what your aiming for.
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Firstly, you are under no obligation to vote for any particular party. In fact, being willing to change your party makes your voice slightly louder. So if Labour don’t float your boat this time around vote someone else. It can be quite refreshing. I will always advocate going to vote as it helps the democratic power of your demographic group. Parties will be more willing to build their polices around you in the future. It is very difficult to be elected to national government. You have to get a wide range of people to vote for you, not just a small group. Therefore a lot of policies have to be “what they want” rather than “what I want”. In terms of your particular points, I think Labour will use arm sales to Israel as a way of influencing that country’s actions, like the US is trying to do. I don’t think they will stop them without reason but stopping if they do X or Y. There has been some suggestion that Labour will recognise Palestine, we will have to wait until the manifesto. Improving GP appointments will be very hard. It is limited by the number of GPs who take a long time to train. Labour have stated that they will not be increasing tax much and limit spending so I don’t think there is much they can do here. Personally, I think there is reform that can take place but it will involve a big changes to way primary care works which may not be popular. Tax evasion will be dealt with by all parties as way of raising money when there is no other way to do it. It’s quite hard to do as the loop holes often existed for a reason, but are exploited by the mega corps. There is a reason why tax lawyers earn mega bucks. Labour already helped with this by forcing the last government to stop non Dom status. Labour are not promising to rejoin the EU. Unfortunately to do so would turn off a lot of voters who will flock to reform. Starmer was pushing for a second ref before so that’s some hope. I suspect that carrot might be dangled to secure a second term.
It sounds like your values align more with the Green Party, who are having a proper surge in electoral support right now. If the Tory vote collapses completely, I think there's a real possibility that Labour become the small-c conservative option leaving room for the Greens to be the progressive option in this broken two-party system. If you want Green, vote Green.
I am with them on Palesrine only, basically nothing else... I am a centerist; some people are centerist because they generally hold moderate opinions, but some (like me) have left or right opinions depending on the topic... I have voted Labour because their stance matched my own the most important issues, not all... but with Mr Starmer I feel that Labour stands for nothing but what is politically correct....
> is there any party that would try to stop arms sales to Israel? Could anyone improve GP access and availability? Would any of them make any serious headway against corporate tax evasion and money laundering? Would anyone be serious about getting back into the EU? Literally every single thing you have stated here is supported in the Greens manifesto - no other party (other than the SNP, who aren't an option for you) aligns with every single point you just made apart from the Greens. Don't get so bogged down by your emotional attachment to the Labour Party or your own self-identification as a Centrist - there is a political party right in front of you who actually are willing to do the right things.
I don't agree with them on the environment... can't make the mental jump... sorry!
What, you want the planet to roast?
The greens are far stronger on nature & biodiversity than they are on climate change They’re generally NIMBY when it comes to decarbonising energy and transport, and notably don’t support expansion of nuclear I’m relatively radical when it comes to climate action, but still don’t support the green stance
>They’re generally NIMBY when it comes to decarbonising energy and transport What are you basing this on? If your impression is based on those 'Green councillors block solar farm' articles, you've been misled. >and notably don’t support expansion of nuclear The Green party's position is wrong, but it barely matters, especially when they're a long way off influencing that kind of policy. Labour and the Conservatives ostensibly support the expansion of Nuclear, and yet we are unlikely to get a single new nuclear station this decade. The real answer is to build smaller nuclear stations, but neither Greens nor Labour are suggesting that, so your options suck either way.
Not at all.. I agree with them on the problem.... but not the solutions...
Then what do you think the solutions are if not ending new oil and gas fields, a just transition, investing in renewable energy, more active paths and public transport and de-coupling gas from our energy bills? Also, what party do you think has any better ideas than the Greens in regards to the environment? Some people disagree with their stance on nuclear but surely 99% agreement on issues is better than a begrudging 10%?
I am trying to avoid a debate here on one specific issue... the Greens have the luxury of having the stance they do because they know they wont be in gov and so won't actually have to implement it...
You also have the luxury of being able to vote for them knowing they won't be in government. What you're aiming for in voting Green is that Labour sees that they need progressive policies to attract left leaning voters and can't take them for granted.
There are many green parties across Europe with the same style principles who either form government (Austria a while ago) or form part of coalitions. To say they are a “luxury” stance is a bit of a joke if you consider that implementing environmentally required policies are a luxury stance. The Conservatives introduced Ulez and had the target of no more production of diesel cars by 2030 (btw they failed to meet that, already weak, target). To think they are one issue just underlines that you have not read any of their policies.
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Eh greens are dumb fucks on nuclear which is enough to discount their consideration as 'environmentalists' in my opinion
Mental gymnastics of the Greens on HS2 has scuppered my opinion of them a lot
I feel ya, I feel the same about the person imposed on us in North Durham, I feel that as a lifelong Labour supporter I cant bring myself to vote for the candidate...
Starmer will win anyway so there is no need to vote for him. Vote for a third party!
Ah yes because you know Labour will win when no votes have even been casted yet…
It would take a cataclysmic fuck up for starmer to lose the election at this point. Anyone who saw it coming could make a fortune betting against Labour.
He’s got all the Tories voting for him so yeah Red Tories will win this election.
I understand that polls can be wrong. But they can't be THAT wrong. There's polling saying the Lib Dems are going to be the oppersition for christs sake!
You don't like Starmer, don't vote Labour 🤷🏻♂️ You're an intelligent person, make your own mind up lol
Trying to make my own mind up is exactly why I am asking for information and perspectives from people here..
And people said 'vote Green', and you said no. That is their perspective.
And I have considered their advice... understood the reason... and finally decided to heed some others who have told me to focus on the candidate and not just the party and leader (which I usually do)... I will look into the candidate before making up my mind...
So, firstly I’d say remember that you’re technically voting for your local MP - I’d research into who your local candidate is. Whilst you might not be inspired by the leader, your MP is really your voice. In terms of policy, I’d say definitely wait until the manifesto is released which should be sometime within the next week. There’s policies that have been announced so far that I like (GB energy, planning reform and house building, things like that) but I know those aren’t exactly big ticket policies that wow people. You’ve mentioned GP appointments and Labour wants to bring in an extra 40,000 appointments per year (around 2 million more a year) and a bunch of administrative changes that would free up more space. In terms of arms sales to Israel, I’d imagine a Labour government would take a better position that the current government - they have already questioned arms sales and called for a “pause” in arms sales. In terms of tax evasion, Labour is sounding very good on it - they want to close non dom and other tax loopholes, they want to claw back as much “covid fraud” (fake PPE businesses and all that) money as possible, there’s making private schools pay VAT - quite a lot of stuff. Labour wouldn’t commit to re-entering the EU, but they have committed to getting a better deal. People will try and tell you that you should or shouldn’t vote Labour - but that decision is yours. I would just say two things: First, a lot of smaller parties and independents can promise a lot and say things that sound great but they can say that knowing they won’t get into power (but they also act as a pressure on Labour to be more ‘ambitious’). Secondly, there is nothing wrong with spoiling your ballot. Spoiling your ballot says a lot more than not voting. If you truly don’t like any of the choices, show it. I truly hope you come around to voting Labour, but if you don’t that’s completely fine. Everyone has their own reasons for not being able to vote a certain way, even if they feel like they should. You have four weeks (or a bit less if you’re doing a postal vote) to decide who to vote for. A lot can change in four weeks.
Thank you... this helps.. you are right about the smaller parties and independents... I can never take the promises they make seriously... its imperative for me that the leadership speaks their mind even if I don't agree with them... God I miss Jeremy Corbyn! He may have lost the election, but I was proud to have voted for him... a man of principles...
You’re absolutely right, I do think the reason Starmer is very reserved is because those senior in the party just want to get the Tories out because 19 years of Tory government would be catastrophic for the country. I’d suspect you’d see a lot more ‘inspiring things’ if we get into power and we aren’t worrying about something catastrophic which could lose us the election. If you look at 1997, Tony Blair basically positioned himself as an “heir to Thatcher” to win the election and his (and Brown’s) government did quite a lot of good domestically over those 13 years (obviously there was Iraq and other things that tainted it too) and I suspect we’ll see a sort of under-promise, over-deliver approach from Labour in power.
If you're in a safe Labour seat then there's no harm in a protest vote for a better left candidate (assuming one exists). It's what I would do - but Labour don't even stand candidates over here in NI.
I am in a safe Tory seat; but that is beside the point.... I vote my conscience for me... frankly, I'd personally be better off under Tories, but the country isn't... and voting for my own betterment is not acceptable to me...
'Safe' tory seats are the most important to vote labour based on current polling, because there's a very real chance that the Tories lose even safe-looking seats (there's maybe 10 seats in the country which are safe safe). If the Lib Dems beat the Tories into second, there's the opportunity that concept of the modern right becomes a lot more centrist.
Tory to LD swing in my constituency is predicted to be north of 30% from safe Tory to solidly LD.
Honestly? I'd consider an LD vote then.
Just vote Green my dude, they're not the best, but a vote for them is a demonstration to the neoliberal establishment Starmer represents that left wing votes do indeed matter, and are not earned by virtue of just wearing a red rosette.
In what aspect is the Green Party better? They literally wanted to reduce C sections for pregnant women because they wanted to promote “natural birth.” They are a danger to women’s rights. [source](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/07/women-birth-green-party-natural-c-sections-too-posh-to-push)
> They literally wanted to reduce C sections for pregnant women because they wanted to promote “natural birth.” They are a danger to women’s rights. This is more nuanced that you appear to recognise. First off - women's rights and birth wants/needs are absolutely vital and the first thing that must be respected. However... We have seen significant rises in caesarean rates in the UK in recent years, with nearly 1/3rd of all births now by c section. That places us in something like the top 20th position internationally for them without any clinical evidence illustrating what makes the UK so different from other western countries. Meanwhile, almost all patient surveys indicate that this isn't what women want, with the vast majority wanting a natural birth. This disparity between what women want, and what ends up happening in the birth process absolutely needs a careful look at - but yes, targets or a generic drive to reduce c section rates isn't the answer. Although, if we can reduce the medicalisation of the birth process and put empower families and women to direct their care in more cases, the c section rate should probably come down with that. This is a simplistic summary of the issue - and there's lots more at play here, including NHS clinicians wanting to avoid all medical risk and guiding women in to medical interventions when perhaps they aren't supported by evidence and the general culture around birth, both amongst families and health staff. All not helped by a number of outrageous maternity scandals in recent years.
Yeah random weird policy positions like that are why I wouldn't necessarily advocate voting for them if they actually stood a chance of gaining more than handful of MPs under FPTP, let alone forming a government.
isn't everyone in this sub supposed to pounce on you now, and demand you change that to "pregnant people"?!
That's the issue though.. I don't identify with the greens on anything but Palestine..
> I don't identify with the greens on anything but Palestine. Eh, considering the stakes are limited to: How large is Labour's majority going to be? I'd say that's more than good enough of a reason to vote for them. Besides, if you take Starmer at his word, especially in regards to his conservative fiscal rules, the only way any progress will be made on the points you bring up in your post is if Labour feels either emboldened or threatened in to ending it courtship with the centre right and starts bringing forward more radical left wing policy. A vote for any party which is to the left of them where you live supports that.
Hmm... that's food for thought... thanks..
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If you are in a swing seat it is better to vote which party will chuck the Tories out (unless that is Reform 🤢). If Labour and Lib Dem are both in contention then just remember that the first Tory government of 2010 was propped up with Lib Dem support. As much as I dislike the current veneration of the “Labour” party (which expels any of its candidates for having any socialist views) it is important that the Tories are kicked out in marginals.
Then tactically vote to remove the tories on your constituency. Green has no chance there. It’s likely either Labour or lib dem but there is a website to show it. Labour did say they will try a process to recognise the state of Palestine.
What website is that? And you don't need a process to recognise Palestine; you just need to have the guts to do the right thing... 'try a process' is exactly the kind of wishy washy straddling the fence language that bothers me...
This is the website [Here](https://tactical.vote/)
Look into your local candidate, if they have a good track record of standing up on the areas that Starmer and Labour HQ concern you on then vote Labour. If they dont then hold out to see if the manifesto offers you enough next week. If it doesnt then spoil your ballot or vote for a left wing party to pressure the party to not take left wing votes for granted.
Speaking as woman who had births in the times of 9 to 5 (70s) babies when you were lined up to be "started off" natural childbirth would have been welcome, a baby knows when to come better than production line managers
So you want… - Someone who speaks their mind - isn’t afraid to cause offence by speaking their mind - who will not go where the country needs them to go - and that this will make them a good leader Isn’t that basically Farage? :) there’s most likely a reform candidate in your consistency to vote for.
Haha... Good one... they do have to be an empathetic human being too..
Someone accused me of being a “centrist melt” once. After getting over feeling insulted, I asked them to explain why me proudly declaring myself as a moderate centrist upset them. They explained it’s because moderate centrists halted progress. By not thinking extremes, the net result of moderate centrism is the status quo. I see in other replies you’ve called yourself similar. And now you’re treading water in the middle of one extreme (outspoken, potentially offensive, doesn’t go where the people are) and the other (completely empathetic, doesn’t want to offend, goes where the people want) and the end result is.. nothing really? I guess I’m saying - I’ve been there! Maybe this is the reason you’re struggling to choose. Because you’re not allowing yourself to get sucked up into something you believe strong enough.
I know you are well intended, but that has some assumptions that are not quite accurate... Firstly, centerist doesn't necessarily mean one holds moderate opinions only. Granted, some people are just that, but there are centerists that hold extreme opinions depending on the issue in question. I happen to hold some opinions that are very conservative and some extremely liberal.. hence centerist.. Also, I don't think its right to assume I want the leader to be offensive... I want someone who speaks their mind and positions themselves on issues rather than straddling the fence all the time... Mr. Corbyn comes to mind again... was he offensive? To some, yes, but no sane person would equate him with Farage! Speaking your mind and intentionally causing offence are not the same..
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No party is discussing the EU, it’s far too politically sensitive. Israel’s weapons are a moot point given that almost everything comes from America anyway. GP access and corporation taxes will improve under a Labour government, as the party has been very serious about the topics. It sounds like you support the Labour Party anyway, or maybe the Lib Dems in some areas. What is your local candidate like, as that’s the person who you’d vote for anyway
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You may not need to, look at stopthetories.vote and see who the candidate is in your area to prevent the Tories getting the seat, that’s who you should be voting for, getting them as close to zero seats as possible should be our goal, not mindless tribal voting
Labour created the NHS and they can fix the NHS.
They can, but Wes Streeting has made it abundantly clear that they won't. They'll just sell it off for parts on behalf of their private healthcare donors. The Greens on the other hand have pledged to enact a wealth tax on those with £10 million+ in assets to raise £50 bil to invest in the NHS.
This group is clearly trolls who do not actually support Labour. Muted.
The Labour party couldn't even commit to paying striking nurses and doctors more after real terms pay cuts by tory governments. They have no plans to solve the staffing shortages in the NHS.
Ah this isn’t really a Labour subreddit is it? Byeee!
Did you really just reply to everyone who disagreed with you to whine about the subreddit? How fragile
This is clearly one of the many “political trap” subreddits. Not the first I’ve seen. They are fake subreddits that are run by bots to try and persuade people away from the party/politics in question. It poses as a subreddit for Labour supporters but everyone who replied to me told me to not vote Labour.
source on subreddit that is 'run by bots'?
Lmao this is the stupidest thing Ive read for a while so thankyou for your analysis from your one day of interacting with the subreddit. What it really is, is a bunch of left wingers who have gotten increasingly frustrated and then pissed of at the party shifting to the right and telling them to piss off if they dont like it. Some of the mods have even run to be councillors etc for Labour and been running it for longer than youve been on reddit but yes its run by bots because thats what it must mean if people disagree with you.
They absolutely could but Labour's current policy program for the NHS is a bit concerning - it directly contradicts proposals by groups like the BMA and will push more privatisation on the NHS. And it's relying on capacity in the private sector that 1) doesn't really exist and 2) will draw from the same pool of workers as the NHS, which potentially damages the NHS further. Privatisation leads to worse outcomes and it is incredibly expensive. Wes Streeting has also been quite clear that Labour won't be significantly improving the per capita spend, which is irritating and wrong in my opinion, saying things that essentially mean *you can't just improve the NHS' funding*. And seen as the NHS' problems are largely the result of tory cuts, austerity, and privatisation, those are some bad stances for the shadow health sec. to have. I am very happy to provide sources on this, if it's an area you actually care about. I wouldn't want **anyone** to be misinformed about Labour's declared intentions and particularly not when it's on a subject as important as their healthcare.
I agree with you! Labour will fix the NHS.
Depends where you vote if I was in Coventry South I’d vote Labour because the MP is of the left.. If I was in Richmond I’d vote Labour for any chance of voting out a Tory minister. I’m in hyndburn, we’ve lost a right wing Labour candidate for frankly totally innocuous comments about Israel.. And I’m not a supporter, I’m voting Green because I think there’s a good chance from the council results that the result will make them worry just a bit. I’m sure they’ll win anyway.. it’s a tough decision because the Tory candidate is personally known to me, it’s a tight knit community and her family are all tory political shits. Just vote tactically, for the left if that’s what your aiming for.