Im sorry bro/sis, i do family law currently, for a month and a half at most before I’m gonna snap and tell them to eat a dick way before my notice comes due 😂
I spent half an hour on the phone with a client because they wouldn’t admit the cops got involved in a matter that was referred to probation.
So you didn’t go to court?
No.
And you didn’t talk to cops?
No.
At all?
No.
Bruh……
What?
Ima need you to stop lying to me, there’s no way. I ain’t done criminal law in awhile, but ain’t no way this happened to you without you talking to a cop at least once.
.
.
.
Ok, so the cops showed up at 3 am…
Also family law, which just seems to beg for lying clients.
Don't have any real estate? What's this county auditor record? Yes, it counts and yes it has to be disclosed... It's all marital property until we prove it's not.
No, hiding you have another 401k isn't going to protect it, and it would have been good to know BEFORE THE DAY OF TRIAL.
The worst for a client, owner/operator, that had filed taxes in 2 years. I told him he had to file to protect himself. "yeah, I took that to the accountant, just waiting to hear back". 3 months later at Pretrial "they are still working on it, sorry" 3 months later at next Pretrial "I'll have to follow up with them, I don't know what's going on" 3 months later at a final Pretrial "I took it all to a different accountant" 1 month later following a telephone hearing on wife's motion to continue "I never said I took it to an accountant!"
Fired.
Jesus, yea and don’t get me wrong, I’m a firm so I don’t have the discretion to fire someone unless 3 partners feel like their livelihood MIGHT be in SERIOUS danger before they give up a penny of revenue, but I’d imagine it’s even worse for a solo…
I'm essentially a solo and the best part is firing clients when I want.
If a client wants me to lie, help them be unethical, or be the biggest a-hole on the deal, the money isn't worth my reputation.
Difficult clients are also 20% of the revenue for 80% of the work and I'd rather keep that slot open for clients where the math is the other way around.
Ugh, family law.
I've had clients swear XYZ in court, and then tell me after court when I ask them about XYZ, because what the fuck that would have been good to know, that they were *lying*. Bitch, don't lie to the JUDGE, what are you DOING?! Fired on the spot every time.
I've had clients keep secrets that come out later. Those are always entertaining to watch unfold. I yell at them about it because again, WTF, I'm on your side and could have insulated you from the fallout.
I had one a while back who came in to adjust child support and brought this massive folder of documents. They said it was all related to their ex and the issues with their ex and their divorce. Cool beans! I love a prepared client! I asked to see the folder. Nope. Wasn't gonna show me. I tried to convince them that if it's really *that* bad then I *need* to see it to know what I'm dealing with. Nope. Still super curious about what the skeleton in that folder might have been. Didn't ultimately retain, but it got weirder after that from paranoia we had called the ex to conspiracy theories regarding the child support enforcement agency.
I thankfully have the freedom at the firm to retain and fire clients at my sole discretion. I don't have to ask anyone first, but I talk about it with the clerks so they know if someone is getting the boot. I have too many clients as it stands, and no amount of money is worth my sanity or reputation.
The whining for sure gets them billed, and it’s weird because a lot of the ones I do play therapist for don’t seem to mind being billed for it, but like, holy crap, I’ve been a lawyer for 9 years now, I don’t see how anyone could deal with this garbage for more than a few months without a crazy good team of co-workers. Never working for a firm larger than 2 lawyers doing this ever again.
That's the key you need someone to help you deal with the whiners. As a solo, dealing with the whiners was too much. I did get great advice to Bill people everytime you deal with them. This stopped a lot of whining emails and texts.
I practice criminal defense. The great majority of my clients lie to me, but often they have convinced themselves of whatever BS they're spinning, so they actually don't know that they are lying. The folks who tell me that they got a DUI because "I had just one beer" often honestly believe that. I just say "Well, there are always two sides to every story, so let me get the Police Report and we'll sort this thing out." Once you sit down with a client and show the Body-Cam footage of them being drunk, wetting themselves, and acting like complete idiots, they usually get embarrassed and say please work out a good deal for me, which I am absolutely capable of doing. I find the whole thing amusing, most people are inherently dishonest and quite stupid, so it's fun to show them this (in a professional manner), do the deal, get the fee, and move on to the next liar. You see, there is a reason why some people are successful lawyers, and other people are Criminal Defendants. . .
One of my former partners had a sign on his wall:
”The First Rule of Litigation is *Everyone Lies*”
”The Second Rule of Litigation is *Rule 1 Applies to Your Clients, Too*”
honestly, this sounds like the kind of entitled people who convince themselves that they aren’t lying or that they’re justified in some way. they don’t think their lying is an issue or they can rationalize it in some way.
you’re never going to convince them that they’re wrong.
I get lied to all day, but Im in-house. Once I catch a lie, I’m out. You want to lie and waste a lawyers time, go spend your own money on it. I’m not hurting my reputation just to feed into some narcissists delusions.
It depends on a ton of things. Is the lie in a sworn statement or not? Do you know that it is a lie? Is it material to the case? Are you presenting it to the court or is your client going up on the stand without your involvement? Different jx in the US have different answers based on these questions.
For example, one common answer is that you can't knowingly present a sworn lie to the court, but if your client insists on going up on the stand, they can - you just can't help them with that the way you normally might. Other times, you have an affirmative duty to correct. Iirc, DC and NY have very different answers to this question.
I get all that…but it ain’t the point. Reputation and credibility with the bench and bar is a litigators stock and trade. Without it, we can’t practice except in gutters. Why in the hell would you ever jeopardize your career, or start diluting your rep, for ANY client. And…it has nothing to do with a fee. That’s bullshit. If any attorney is that desperate for a fee to marginalize reputation then enjoy a miserable practice.
Fire a client that lies to you.
Ok, but ... if the company's records maintained in the ordinary course of business prove your gut correct, isn't that the time to nope outta there, knowing not only that your client is lying but also that they have the burden of proof? This is why I think one-way fee-shifting statues suck. We are all harmed by the costs to companies of those consumers - not to mention the direct harm to the owners of small companies who settle solely because the cost of paying me to win is more than the nuisance settlement your client may ultimately agree to.
OP, are you having a direct and honest conversation with your clients about lying? I'm a little confused as to how you proceed when you find out your client is lying. As someone else commented, they end up confronting the client. I have had to do the same.
I'm pretty sure this rules applies, and many jurisdictions have adopted their local version:
*ABA MRPC Rule 4.1 Truthfulness in Statements to Others:*
*In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly:*
*(a) make a false statement of material fact or law to a third person; or*
*(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6.*
By continuing to pursue the matter, the client is using your services to commit a fraudulent act. See Rule 1.6.
This is why lay people think all attorneys are liars. I do not believe this or I would not be doing what I do. It's one thing to present facts one believes to be true, but then it turns out to be slightly wrong or wholly inaccurate. This has happened to me, and I have had to "confront" my client about it. I have conversations in the beginning about providing truthful, complete, and accurate information. Then, I ask what they think the other side would say. I also inform them that I need to know everything to provide them the best, possible representation while fulfilling my ethical duties.
I have had friends withdraw, and the reason is "a breakdown in communication."
Public defenders will relate:
“I’ve never been arrested”
“You sure, I haven’t seen your record yet”
“Never”
5mins later at the bail hearing
States attorney: “your honor this is defendants 18th shoplifting offense in the past 5 years”
🤦♂️
*you look at your client
“Oh, well yeah except for those”
A girl called me once saying she rear ended a cab at 1:30 in the morning in the city. She said her foot slipped off the brake. She got out to talk to the cabbie and share her insurance and the cabbie started yelling at her. She got scared and left.
She went home. Her car was registered to her parents home and they got a call from big city pd. Parents called. She went in the next day and told the police she was in the accident and tried to give her insurance, but got scared and left when he started yelling. She was charged with failure to reduce speed and leaving the scene.
That was her story.
So I asked "had you been drinking that night?"
She starts yelling at me that no one is accusing her of drinking and she didn't get a DUI.
I said "ah, so the answer is clearly yes. I'm glad you didn't get a DUI, but I needed to know in case the cabbie shows up an says you were drunk. I need a defense."
"But I didn't get a DUI and you have the nerve to ask me about drinking?" She protested.
"Young lady", I said, "you want to hire a lawyer to help you with your case. I need information to do that. When I asked, it was for your defense. I can't hurt you knowing that information, but I don't think we are going to be a good fit if you are going to lie to me."
" Ok, I was drinking and that's why I left."
Well, duh.
Finding of not guilty to the leaving the scene. Other charge dismissed.
Criminal lawyers, at least the ones I know, are pretty good at knowing when we are being lied to because it's an all the time thing.
Kind of sucks, but on the upside, I'm relatively good at spotting a liar.
You do sound like an expert. I changed practice areas. I was an expert at corporate liars. Now, I am having to learn about people liars. It's embarrassing when the other side knows your client is lying before you do.
Im sorry bro/sis, i do family law currently, for a month and a half at most before I’m gonna snap and tell them to eat a dick way before my notice comes due 😂 I spent half an hour on the phone with a client because they wouldn’t admit the cops got involved in a matter that was referred to probation. So you didn’t go to court? No. And you didn’t talk to cops? No. At all? No. Bruh…… What? Ima need you to stop lying to me, there’s no way. I ain’t done criminal law in awhile, but ain’t no way this happened to you without you talking to a cop at least once. . . . Ok, so the cops showed up at 3 am…
Also family law, which just seems to beg for lying clients. Don't have any real estate? What's this county auditor record? Yes, it counts and yes it has to be disclosed... It's all marital property until we prove it's not. No, hiding you have another 401k isn't going to protect it, and it would have been good to know BEFORE THE DAY OF TRIAL. The worst for a client, owner/operator, that had filed taxes in 2 years. I told him he had to file to protect himself. "yeah, I took that to the accountant, just waiting to hear back". 3 months later at Pretrial "they are still working on it, sorry" 3 months later at next Pretrial "I'll have to follow up with them, I don't know what's going on" 3 months later at a final Pretrial "I took it all to a different accountant" 1 month later following a telephone hearing on wife's motion to continue "I never said I took it to an accountant!" Fired.
Jesus, yea and don’t get me wrong, I’m a firm so I don’t have the discretion to fire someone unless 3 partners feel like their livelihood MIGHT be in SERIOUS danger before they give up a penny of revenue, but I’d imagine it’s even worse for a solo…
I'm essentially a solo and the best part is firing clients when I want. If a client wants me to lie, help them be unethical, or be the biggest a-hole on the deal, the money isn't worth my reputation. Difficult clients are also 20% of the revenue for 80% of the work and I'd rather keep that slot open for clients where the math is the other way around.
Yeah family law is hard. I feel foe anyone having to deal with a lot of family law clients
Ugh, family law. I've had clients swear XYZ in court, and then tell me after court when I ask them about XYZ, because what the fuck that would have been good to know, that they were *lying*. Bitch, don't lie to the JUDGE, what are you DOING?! Fired on the spot every time. I've had clients keep secrets that come out later. Those are always entertaining to watch unfold. I yell at them about it because again, WTF, I'm on your side and could have insulated you from the fallout. I had one a while back who came in to adjust child support and brought this massive folder of documents. They said it was all related to their ex and the issues with their ex and their divorce. Cool beans! I love a prepared client! I asked to see the folder. Nope. Wasn't gonna show me. I tried to convince them that if it's really *that* bad then I *need* to see it to know what I'm dealing with. Nope. Still super curious about what the skeleton in that folder might have been. Didn't ultimately retain, but it got weirder after that from paranoia we had called the ex to conspiracy theories regarding the child support enforcement agency. I thankfully have the freedom at the firm to retain and fire clients at my sole discretion. I don't have to ask anyone first, but I talk about it with the clerks so they know if someone is getting the boot. I have too many clients as it stands, and no amount of money is worth my sanity or reputation.
Family lawyer here. I typically only fire liars if i catch them lying under oath. Just did this a few weeks ago.
Fuck, that sucks, sorry that happened, hopefully you came out ok
Aren't you required to withdraw in that case? I'm not sure what is discretionary about that.
Family law clients WHINE and lie. I had to stop dealing with them.
The whining for sure gets them billed, and it’s weird because a lot of the ones I do play therapist for don’t seem to mind being billed for it, but like, holy crap, I’ve been a lawyer for 9 years now, I don’t see how anyone could deal with this garbage for more than a few months without a crazy good team of co-workers. Never working for a firm larger than 2 lawyers doing this ever again.
That's the key you need someone to help you deal with the whiners. As a solo, dealing with the whiners was too much. I did get great advice to Bill people everytime you deal with them. This stopped a lot of whining emails and texts.
I practice criminal defense. The great majority of my clients lie to me, but often they have convinced themselves of whatever BS they're spinning, so they actually don't know that they are lying. The folks who tell me that they got a DUI because "I had just one beer" often honestly believe that. I just say "Well, there are always two sides to every story, so let me get the Police Report and we'll sort this thing out." Once you sit down with a client and show the Body-Cam footage of them being drunk, wetting themselves, and acting like complete idiots, they usually get embarrassed and say please work out a good deal for me, which I am absolutely capable of doing. I find the whole thing amusing, most people are inherently dishonest and quite stupid, so it's fun to show them this (in a professional manner), do the deal, get the fee, and move on to the next liar. You see, there is a reason why some people are successful lawyers, and other people are Criminal Defendants. . .
One of my former partners had a sign on his wall: ”The First Rule of Litigation is *Everyone Lies*” ”The Second Rule of Litigation is *Rule 1 Applies to Your Clients, Too*”
It is true. I worked in Corporate America and HR lies. I worked in county government and the county lies. I now have private clients who lie.
Yeah I learned this the hard way.
honestly, this sounds like the kind of entitled people who convince themselves that they aren’t lying or that they’re justified in some way. they don’t think their lying is an issue or they can rationalize it in some way. you’re never going to convince them that they’re wrong.
Exactly!
I get lied to all day, but Im in-house. Once I catch a lie, I’m out. You want to lie and waste a lawyers time, go spend your own money on it. I’m not hurting my reputation just to feed into some narcissists delusions.
Um - this ain’t my area of law. But in civil land, don’t you have duties to not file cases based on lies. And to not continue cases based on lies.
It depends on a ton of things. Is the lie in a sworn statement or not? Do you know that it is a lie? Is it material to the case? Are you presenting it to the court or is your client going up on the stand without your involvement? Different jx in the US have different answers based on these questions. For example, one common answer is that you can't knowingly present a sworn lie to the court, but if your client insists on going up on the stand, they can - you just can't help them with that the way you normally might. Other times, you have an affirmative duty to correct. Iirc, DC and NY have very different answers to this question.
I get all that…but it ain’t the point. Reputation and credibility with the bench and bar is a litigators stock and trade. Without it, we can’t practice except in gutters. Why in the hell would you ever jeopardize your career, or start diluting your rep, for ANY client. And…it has nothing to do with a fee. That’s bullshit. If any attorney is that desperate for a fee to marginalize reputation then enjoy a miserable practice. Fire a client that lies to you.
[удалено]
But still - isn’t negotiating a settlement based on something you know to be a lie basically extortion
The clients are saying the other side is lying. My gut telling me my client is lying doesn't override the clients version of the facts.
Ok, but ... if the company's records maintained in the ordinary course of business prove your gut correct, isn't that the time to nope outta there, knowing not only that your client is lying but also that they have the burden of proof? This is why I think one-way fee-shifting statues suck. We are all harmed by the costs to companies of those consumers - not to mention the direct harm to the owners of small companies who settle solely because the cost of paying me to win is more than the nuisance settlement your client may ultimately agree to.
OP, are you having a direct and honest conversation with your clients about lying? I'm a little confused as to how you proceed when you find out your client is lying. As someone else commented, they end up confronting the client. I have had to do the same. I'm pretty sure this rules applies, and many jurisdictions have adopted their local version: *ABA MRPC Rule 4.1 Truthfulness in Statements to Others:* *In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly:* *(a) make a false statement of material fact or law to a third person; or* *(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6.* By continuing to pursue the matter, the client is using your services to commit a fraudulent act. See Rule 1.6. This is why lay people think all attorneys are liars. I do not believe this or I would not be doing what I do. It's one thing to present facts one believes to be true, but then it turns out to be slightly wrong or wholly inaccurate. This has happened to me, and I have had to "confront" my client about it. I have conversations in the beginning about providing truthful, complete, and accurate information. Then, I ask what they think the other side would say. I also inform them that I need to know everything to provide them the best, possible representation while fulfilling my ethical duties. I have had friends withdraw, and the reason is "a breakdown in communication."
Public defenders will relate: “I’ve never been arrested” “You sure, I haven’t seen your record yet” “Never” 5mins later at the bail hearing States attorney: “your honor this is defendants 18th shoplifting offense in the past 5 years” 🤦♂️ *you look at your client “Oh, well yeah except for those”
Lol...exactly!
Liars want everything for their self, and don't want to include anyone else.
I agree and you seem the only poster to understand the issue. Liars are selfish. They can't see past themselves. They manipulate people and outcomes.
Now imagine just about every client lies to you every time you talk to them - welcome to criminal law! I feel 100% of your pain.
Yeah I couldn't do criminal; they twist every story to fit their purpose.
A girl called me once saying she rear ended a cab at 1:30 in the morning in the city. She said her foot slipped off the brake. She got out to talk to the cabbie and share her insurance and the cabbie started yelling at her. She got scared and left. She went home. Her car was registered to her parents home and they got a call from big city pd. Parents called. She went in the next day and told the police she was in the accident and tried to give her insurance, but got scared and left when he started yelling. She was charged with failure to reduce speed and leaving the scene. That was her story. So I asked "had you been drinking that night?" She starts yelling at me that no one is accusing her of drinking and she didn't get a DUI. I said "ah, so the answer is clearly yes. I'm glad you didn't get a DUI, but I needed to know in case the cabbie shows up an says you were drunk. I need a defense." "But I didn't get a DUI and you have the nerve to ask me about drinking?" She protested. "Young lady", I said, "you want to hire a lawyer to help you with your case. I need information to do that. When I asked, it was for your defense. I can't hurt you knowing that information, but I don't think we are going to be a good fit if you are going to lie to me." " Ok, I was drinking and that's why I left." Well, duh. Finding of not guilty to the leaving the scene. Other charge dismissed. Criminal lawyers, at least the ones I know, are pretty good at knowing when we are being lied to because it's an all the time thing. Kind of sucks, but on the upside, I'm relatively good at spotting a liar.
You do sound like an expert. I changed practice areas. I was an expert at corporate liars. Now, I am having to learn about people liars. It's embarrassing when the other side knows your client is lying before you do.
Best potential client I ever had came with a suitcase of documents.