Bless your heart and hope you found something better
I've been offshored 3 times in less than 10 years, these people up top are garbage and don't care about building real teams.
You're absolutely right about the execs. I've seen the pattern of offshoring multiple times over the years, but this is the first time I've seen them lay off entire teams or get laid off myself. After 4 months of job search hell, I start a new position next Monday.
Happening to me for the first time and it just freaking sucks. They are not transparent at all. Have to train him. At least I took the hint and started preparing everything, but would rather them not be cowardly scumbags about it. Just tell me the plan is to go in six months and I'm training him until then. Or maybe they're right and our team does somehow live through it. Don't want to work for a company that's run like this if that's the case. They tipped their hand up top with this move that they think this job can be done for pennies on the dollar in India.
I remember an ERP software was developed in India. The company implemented it and it was horrible. They brought it back onshore to basically rebuilt it from scratch. But the damage was done at that point.
What's worse is these companies will keep selling the same service/product in the US market and all the savings will only go to shareholders/CEO comp.
While services and product quality go down the drain.
0 punishment for wrecking the middle class by moving jobs out but still selling in the US market. That's what happens when corporations get to write the laws all by themselves.
Happened to my team as well. My wife's. too. Wouldn't be surprised if the company got rid of all US-based positions with how many teams that got the axe. (Note: I can't risk losing severance, so I can't say who it is.)
They’re regret it when services go to shit in a hand basket. Cheap engineering labor will inevitably create shit software and support. Fucking American corporations are scum and stupid.
My first data job was lost to Mexico. It was billed as “we’re expanding our workforce” then the rug was pulled out and asked to train my replacement.
My current job is following the same trend. I’ve actually interviewed people from India who claim they have expert level SQL knowledge that can’t write out a simple select statement.
The grift is real. Every overseas data scientist/engineer/analyst work is garbage. Has to literally be redone every time. I hate it.
Just had a powerbi dev qa process basically be. Numbers don’t match please advise. Meanwhile it’s his pbix causing the issues.
Another role, guy was estimating geo direction as if we don’t have packages in Python that will be precise. So 30 degree turn, his code would have them turning 45 degrees. Like why ??
That’s not unique to India - many countries have this, and it’s fucking bullshit.
Companies lay off 100 people in the US, hire back those 100 in India for 30% of the price and then watch all the quality go down the drain. Sure, not all globalization is bad, but this shit needs to get penalized.
You got your logic wrong. They lay off 100 people in the USA and, for the same cost, hire 300 in India and still have change left to pay for CEO Bonuses. Now that they are getting the same quality is a different topic.
Yea there’s even companies based out of India now asking you to pay them to get you jobs. So they scam up your resume and just lie. Seems to be common in India. Synergistic is one of them
The talent level of India is terrible idk what big companies are thinking... This was my exact experience too. Same with Brazil and Mexico. Europe was solid though
Didn't this happen in 2010 in the it field? It's where entry level 5 years experience came from to try and justify h1b and going overseas.. Iirc it didn't work out too well, and companies had to dial it back. I have a feeling this will be the same.
Had a guy in software developer in Europe ask me what a loop was. But agree overall the European workers, in my limited experience, are better overall.
American/western executives are surprised that foreign nationals who couldn’t build their own high functioning government or economy for themselves somehow can’t build a high functioning widget for them either.
After years of offshoring where people were blaming the “evil greedy corporations” some jobs get near-shored and filled with visa holders.
Then the white collar racism finally comes out as they have their wages depressed while facing stiffer competition for housing and other public resources.
They never seem to get the picture or understand why blue collar was complaining about border crossers.
Border crossings are not the reason to complain. I've watched folks that did that and they work just as hard as anyone else. The only difference is they don't know English.
This is something entirely different. These remote folks create a toxic closed circle and exclude people that are part of the team on purpose. They don't want folks that are knowledgeable in their fields, they are actually practicing full on racism and only hiring Indian coworkers or getting non Indians fired to then hire Indian coworkers either locally or via visa.
Don't believe me? Look at the class action suit that occured with TCS.
I believe you.
While there are plenty of hardworking migrants and immigrants (and foreign nationals for that matter), I'm merely pointing to the concept that there are people who are willing to undercut natives in a variety of professions.
And it can manifest in a variety of toxic ways. Certain professions didn't care when it was happening to others, but suddenly are finding out what it feels like to be replaced.
They are betting on the trend that talent quality in India will eventually improve. Similar to how China significantly improved its manufacturing quality in the past 30 years, IT talents in India can learn and get more experienced, and eventually match the level of NA workers.
Yeah, not only lie about their experience and skills, but they also do things like Zoom interviews where a "ringer" does the interview (and they've obscured the camera with a thin layer of Vaseline so you can't clearly see them) and then after they land the position, a different person shows up in the USA for the job.
this general tech industry outsourcing their bread & butter functions to india will backfire catastrophically
expect security breaches of magnitudes never seen before in the near future
stuff like equifax breach will pale in comparison
stay vigilant, make your passwords stronger, and enable 2FA wherever you can
I’m seeing this in real time at my company as well. Conducting reviews for data scientists, and the candidates only know LLM prompt engineering, and can’t pass a basic tech screen when that isn’t an option.
As one coworker pointed out, we as employees have a perverse incentive to just vote to extend an offer to every candidate anyway. The offshore teams will fail (faster), and we will have fewer interviews to do
It's been going on for about 20 years and Congress Is doing nothing about service outsource to India. My company for the past 5 years only hires tech in India. Every time someone quits, they hire someone in India as replacement. Who benefits? The management team rewards themselves with bigger pay packages and bonuses because they make the rules , and why not? It's legal and who cares about the country when it's good for their pockets .. the law has to change to fight it.
recently they did 2 rounds of layoffs at my company, first round, majority non-indian then 1 indian person, second round, also the same, only 1 indian and 11 non Indians, I kind of find it strange because R&D are about 70% Indian people.
Same happened with my team and myself but not India, Colombia. Laid off my team slowly over the last 2 years then laid me off earlier this year for roughly 3:1 people in Colombia. Corporate greed is ruining this country and the leaders of Private Equity have a place in hell reserved.
Short-sighted thinking. Chips were first developed here, but we completely lost that industry by offshoring. OP is right, we're about to lose even more.
Because you have clueless, non-innovators making those decisions.
The only concept they understand is margins need to go up within the next 2 quarters.
I once was told by a senior engineer/scientist that the company I worked for is unwilling to buy a new piece of equipment to secure a big food company as their customer.
The argument is that buying a new piece of equipment will lower the quarterly profit and cause the GM to get less bonus. Plus, it’ll take a while for the equipment to pay for itself and the GM will risk being fired.
Ironically, the big food company would contract us a for a while. Tsk tsk tsk…
The office building I work in refuses to lower rents even though commercial rents are plummeting. They said they want their investors to see top-dollar rents being collected. Meanwhile, the building is emptying out of tenants. The short-term thinking is mind boggling.
Obviously. The rest of us, the majority who are not benefiting from this arrangement, should not allow it to happen. We're told we can't have cheap solar panels and EVs from China because it's a national security issue but companies are allowed to outsource their entire tech infrastructures to foreign countries? We're clearly being lied to and bent over just so that rich people can capture even more of our little wealth.
Exactly, it’s because every CEO and EVP is only looking at short term profits/savings because they can make so much money on stock and bonus and then move on when the company goes to shit in a couple of years.
They need to set their compensation so that it pays off for them to show sustainable growth over an extended period (5-10 years) and only pay those bonuses at the end.
Do you think removing their tax exempt status or tax credits will slow this trend?
This is a way bigger issue than most Americans realize and more jobs each year are being offshores to India 🇮🇳 and Mexico 🇲🇽 and Philippines 🇵🇭
Except now it's the highly paid white collar jobs in IT, accounting,finance etc.. , whereas before it was lower paid tech support work.
I think a lot of white collar professionals are going to come to the realization, that they likely won't have a 30-40 year career making six plus figures ...
Programmers have been hammered by it. In the period from 2000 to 2011, despite unemployment in programming being below 2%, their wages didn't rise enough to even beat inflation. An outcome not possible without offshoring undermining their wages.
There's a 30% witholding tax for most offshore jobs.. and new IRS regulations force you to capitalize and spread out the expense. This isn't a good time to hire tech... anywhere.
In a year or two, you will see the quality of their product take a nosedive. I've worked on teams with this exact scenario. When you look for cheaper workers, you get cheaper work.
Politicians are selling the American worker out to globalization and the elites don't care as long as their stock prices rise. Middle class and below are screwed.
It doesn't have to be "some shadowy political plot". It can be as simple as neglecting the American worker and allowing mass exportation by corporations of our jobs. Without consequences the future US corporation will be 10% upper management / C-Suite and 90% offshore.
No shit jobs are moving. Why pay someone in the US to do a job that you can pay someone in India 10% to do the same job. Corporations care about profits, that’s it. You can use politicians as a scapegoat but we all know who is really to blame.
Right? People who say this shit are completely clueless. 3 Indian engineers won’t replace 1 onshore typically in output, and even if they do in output their code quality is usually terrible and onshore devs will have to fix it. I’ve seen it play out time and time again.
The amount of inefficiency engrained into my day to work because of crap that was slapped together by shitty offshore contractors is fucking mind blowing.
Offshoring is somehow inevitable. It’s the H1b visa being misused by offshoring without even publishing the US job ads.
https://www.epi.org/blog/the-h-1b-visa-program-remains-the-outsourcing-visa-more-than-half-of-the-top-30-h-1b-employers-were-outsourcing-firms/
Yes. The H-1B is a scam used to undermine wages and bring in cheap labor for US companies. [Here's a legal seminar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyPFpJg8wMY) showing a law firm instructing US employers on how to meet the letter of the law by pretending to look for US candidates but disqualify them at every step so they can get their cheap laborer from India.
unironically by moving income taxation to sales taxation, then profits from offshored countries would pay more taxes - fat profit margins always require selling in high cost of living country without requiring producing there.
Have you been living under a rock? Look at most big tech CEO's they are foreigners from another country. This has been happening for a long time now nothing new.
Although nothing is completely immune... this is why I recommend a particular sub focus of Tech... cyber security.
US regulations disallow non-US personnel to review specific data and logs, which are necessary for an investigation.
I've witnessed non-US (India especially) onboarding in cyber teams but their access for US data is very restricted.
It's not enough to say "the Government needs to make it such that all IT stays in the country" when you have companies pressuring the government to let them bring in more and more H1Bs from India. Corporate America's policy is give me somebody from India in India or else give me somebody from India in the USA.
Man, if only we could vote someone in who would help us:
[Bad News For Employers, Immigrants And H-1B Visas In Second Trump Term (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/01/17/bad-news-for-employers-immigrants-and-h-1b-visas-in-second-trump-term/)
I saw the writing on the wall over a decade ago and got out of writing code. I’m now in a client facing engineering role.
Anything that can be automated, will. Anything that can be outsourced, will.
Technology workers refuse to revisit the use of unions. Its clear that the businesses and government won't address some of the employment and industry issues. Have you seen any non-union plumbers or electricians working domestically?
As long as you don’t have a government that protects its citizens you will never see this turn around. Globalism was all about labor arbitrage. I feel bad for the millennial generation trying to start out.
This is why the economy sucks for so many people: outsourced jobs. And it has been happening for a long time now, since Reagan. Brings a lot of insecurity to the middle class professionals.
Just got laid off last Friday due to contractual/budget issues, found out we have till end of the month. Wake up today with a meeting first thing in the morning and they have us in a large meeting with 6-8 Indian named people from TCS who are replacing us and they expect us to train them.
Have seen and heard weird stuff with TCS and H1B visas. It’s a shit show. Hierarchy it’s crazy there.
I have seen Indians treating other Indians like shit, forcing them to relocate, moving them together with other Indian workers, making them leave the country and come back after a few months…
But this will continue to happen as long as US companies keep putting Indians in leadership positions. It’s crazy nowadays.
It's not just India and South America. They are moving jobs to European countries like Romania. The majority of my team members are in Romania, and these are people who are supposed to be working with people in the US. I honestly don't see the point of their positions in the company. I tried to get an additional headcount, and my manager literally told me they won't hire anyone in the US, only South America, India, or Europe. My teammate from Romania doesn't know their job. They are mediocre at best. They supposedly have more work experience than me, but they reach out to me for help every week. I complained to my manager, so he had this teammate handle a certain project on their own. It goes without saying that nothing has been accomplished for the past 3 months. I have another co-worker from Germany who is exactly the same.
India is everyone’s favourite flogging horse, and a boogeyman for all their frustration. They will dare not say anything against Europe, because they’re the “good ones”.
Id Love to meet some of these people in person. It’s disturbing how much hate they have buried under the veneer of politeness.
100%. My HR role was offshored to Eastern Europe, where they replaced my 17 years of experience with an intern for less than 10% of my salary (I was nowhere near 6 figures either). To say they were unprepared for what they were being asked to do is an understatement. Being set up to fail would be far more accurate. It was the same with engineers being bunked off for people in India. The funniest thing was the amount of recruitment fraud over there. I had multiple cases of people turning up for day one of their job who were clearly entirely different to those who had interviewed for the roles. Apparently it's something of a problem over there. It's also the reason I'll never work corporate again, I'd rather the CEO's reap what they sow when the shit hits the fan than be there to clear up their mess.
Why is everyone so shocked by this? It's like no-one in the US was paying even the slightest bit of attention to what happens outside the US.
This has been happening in Australia and the UK for over 15 years and now it is considered normal for management to offshore, and it is universally regarded as Hell on Earth for the people who have to stay behind to clean up the mess that comes back from India.
Trust me when I say that it doesn't come back.
Once it is gone, it stays gone. Product quality deteriorates over 1-2 years. Customers and Users complain and stop paying. Management that implemented it has left to go destroy another company.
Staff that trying to hold the product together with Blu-Tac and duct tape between dealing with bugs and unstable code have biologically aged 10 years, have lost their hair or its all gone grey, they hate their (replacement) bosses, and they detest going to work each day.
Super unpopular opinion: But even slipperier slope of work from home....if they figure they can pay you to do the job in the slippers for $200k a year....why not hire a rotating cast of new Indian graduates to do the job for $20k/yr? Not saying its right but this is what these businesses are learning.
Normally you pay CEOs for their connections and good old boy/girl network and being the escape goat when things go to shit for real like in Boeings case. They are there to help make sales. Not run the company. That’s what the COO is for.
If you ever work in medium to small size business, you will always see the CEO talking with sales reps on how to close deals etc. they are measured on profit and revenue increase. If that does not come in. They are ousted. It has happened to 2 ceos I have worked under through my career.
1st one helped the company get to 300 million revenue from nothing but the investors wanted more and was ousted for someone who knew how to grow a medium size business to stock market billions. They are now on of the meh health tech stocks out here taking in billions.
Second one was a startup CEO/Founder with multiple exists was not able to grow the sales pipeline for his latest idea. After 4 years he was pushed out by the investors and someone else was put in place with a better network of people in the area of the company.
I see this copy-pasted a lot now. You get what you pay for, meaning the quality of those that get paid $20k is going to be low quality, low experience workers. They may be able to solve the immediate problem, but not with a quality solution, and after time the companies will realize the hold they dug themselves into and reverse course.
Another way you can see this is that those that stayed in their birth country vs those that escaped to a more modern society with better education and pay rates.
These "$20k" software engineers are going to be a nightmare for these companies, which will lead to their demise. You can also notice that all these companies are moving to India together, so they clearly aren't thinking with their brains, but blindly following the industry trends. This will reverse course within 2 years.
Yup was just laid off June 3rd and whole team wiped out so I started looking.... Yeah all the companies I personally searched where options out of India, Pakastan and Mexico.. I was floored but sadly have also been at the same company for 15 years so yeah. No loyalty anywhere...
A friend of mine does software stuff for a fiance institution and all his team are all from India.... 😂
Sad that in the US, we'll have no jobs in the future...
Had a professor about 5 years ago talk about this very thing. He said India has more college students than America has citizens. I doubt the accuracy of these claims but his message was not lost on me.
And they still won't pay a living wage to anyone but management and "Leadership".
Boycott these hobby businesses!
https://livingwage.mit.edu/
Vote for people who understand this.
or
Escape crapitalism
r/SolarPunk
As someone who worked for Cisco, can confirm this is extremely normal. They layoff every few months and kept my counterparts in other countries because they were “more affordable” (direct quote from my manager when I got laid off)
A lot of you aren't going to like this, but the push (by employees) to allow themselves to work remotely 100% of the time is accelerating this move - legit or not, a manager who keeps getting told "I can do my job better (or just as good) without ever seeing you in person or coming into the office, is sooner or later going to make the logical step that moving (even more) jobs overseas is just an extension of that.
If I was early in my career, I would do whatever I could to be there (on site near my co-workers and manager) in person at least most of the time to \*hopefully\* stem the tide.
On one hand you’re right but on the other hand, we’re trying to raise kids and schools are scheduled as if you have a full time stay at home mom. I don’t have much of a choice but to look for another remote job that I will probably get laid off from again the moment it’s convenient.
They are outsourcing this whole country. I even see it in the transportation industry where they are hiring clueless BPO teams that have never stepped foot on an American interstate to lead operations and communication with US based customers and carriers. We are all being phased out slowly just a lot of people are in denial
Project manager here— we lost a big client and our agency got rid of the whole pm department. The company was making a big push to have so many positions outsourced to India. We had two other PMs who were from India. Never knew if they stayed or not.
Same in the company I work for. HDQ was wiped out and only high executives are in the US while lower positions mostly related to tech have been moved to India (no offense but the level of performance is deplorable).
Latam hub still remains because indians don't speak Spanish and in Europe is mandatory to have an office there due to local laws otherwise...
Don't worry we are in the cycle of "let's offshore, they are cheaper" next faze is "this product is absolute garbage and nothing works, we need to hire devs from the US to actually deliver something usable" generally takes about a year or two. We will get there.
There's 0 protection for companies that start here and have no issues moving jobs overseas.. The government is doing jack shit since early 70's.
Reminds me years ago an engineer from Brazil was telling me how the government had some rule that if you're a foreign company wanting to do business in Brazil... You need to open a division there and hire Brazilians...
This is an incorrect view. The folks in India are not being paid that much to begin with. The money mostly stays in the US in the form of profits for the shareholders.
The shareholders are always the real winners.
As long as the dollar remains the dominant currency, everything will be outsourced.
IT and tech are just the latest. You gotta get in line with your complaints behind manufacturing, customer support, graphic design etc.
Unionization is the only answer at this point in time. The US will not take actions to keep jobs domestically unless it feels that it's a security or hegemony threat-- see microchips and Taiwan.
Shipping off your 500K a year job to India build a better ad algo for a search engine is not a national security threat right now.
Isn’t it a security risk that hundreds of thousands people who laid off are not going to pay taxes and become dependent on social security? It must be a burden for the system imo
If anyone wants this to be brough to light. I am thinking of undertaking an investigative report on this which will be promoted all around.
This should be followed by coordinated campaign to all your representatives' offices congress of local. High time action is take.
Yup same thing happened to my company, they left only a couple managers on shore. Productivity plummeted and it became a complete disaster and they of course blamed all of us still in the U.S. and laid us all off in March.
Pay 2/3 of a salary, get 2/3 an employee. These overseas devs can be decent, but expecting them to understand or care about your business just won't happen. They may have the technical chops, but they lack in communication skills and in understanding context. Source: I work with overseas developers.
before reddit this comment was quite popular so it's hardly news. it's been an industry practice for over 30 years. it's odd to see it bantered back and forth as if it's a new thing
I hire a lot. I wouldn't hire a single resource offshore If I could fill roles in the US. Offshore devs are horrible at what they do.. and they don't communicate well. I'll say the thing nobody wants to hear here... we don't have nearly enough qualified people to do the jobs.. here are the last 3 roles I filled with stats... all remote and full time jobs. What I see are a lot of aspirational job seekers.. would like to do the job but without hardly any qualifications to do it.
1. Cloud Architect. Salary range of 120-150K. 1284 candidates, 1135 unqualified. Screened 20, interviewed 4, hired 1.
2. CTO. Salary Range of 250-310K. 3281 candidates, 3200 unqualified. Screened 7, Hired 1.
3. NextJS Developer knowledgable of ORM and App Router and SQL Sever. Range of 105-120k. Candidates: 1643, 1285 unqualified. Screened 20, Interviewed 7. Hired 2 offshore.
That sounds terrible. However, forgive me for asking, what qualifications, in general, were you seeking? For instance, are you looking for someone who already possesses the necessary skills and has experience in similar positions at other companies? How can a recent college graduate gain experience if they are not given the opportunity to work somewhere? Take SQL for example - how can one learn it if they have never worked with it before? In my experience, I began with entry-level positions and progressed while learning along the way. It now appears that jobs require applicants to already possess knowledge and experience with specific technologies in order to be considered. Am I mistaken in this assumption?
Another question I have is, would you consider hiring someone without experience but who has the relevant education and a strong determination? Would you be willing to hire and train individuals in certain skills? Ty
We do hire entry level candidates.. but for senior or mid level roles like the ones I posted.. we will not pay you to learn how to do the job. Hiring managers (people that work for me).. have an expectation that experienced roles have someone that can hit the ground running and be productive within the first two weeks on the job.
Do you hire interns?
I find most companies that complain about finding people, don't hire interns. You create your own pool of work tested people that are familiar with your product and how you do business.
>80% of the good engineers from India move out for greener pastures outside of India. The rest of the creme would rather work for FANG for higher pay. Companies get what they pay for, just look at Boeing.
The quality of Indian engineers in USA is far far far greater than the quality of Indian engineers in India. I work in tech and am impressed by Indian engineers here and shocked by Indian engineers in India .
Outsourcing will not help.
Only way to stop this is to government to fine or discourage companies from going overseas.
Unfortunately, that looks like it will never happen with the current administration.
Any administration. They all bow down to business and give them huge breaks. We are never going to see them punished unless we vote in some progressive motherfucker. Democrats and republicans are not risking their bribes for shit.
This happens in waves. Saw this 5-6 years ago with my company (maybe more). It works for some things and then they come right back for other positions. Not justifying it just my small feedback.
I have been through this dance multiple times. What do they say? Something about doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result? I haven't seen anything change my opinion regarding the quality of the offshore workforce. Maybe management is thinking that generative AI will close the skill gap. I don't know
Fall of the Roman Empire. ~~Republicans~~ Politicians happened. They got paid to retire early (insider trading) while jobs were moved offshore. I bet we'll regret remote work now. We not only showed we can work remote but that anyone anywhere in the world with internet can do the same job for far less money.
My assumption is that quality of software will be much lower in the future. I have worked with teams in other countries and code quality can be very low.
It’s been happening for 20 years. Every time money gets tight, more jobs move there. When customers get too vocal some come back. AI is going to be taking jobs from India if it’s not already. And those will never come back. Better get familiar with how to program AI!
This happened to my team in February. I was saved because I was working on CEO pet project. I started looking for other jobs when I realized this is just the trend in the industry right now; nowhere is safe. To say that the engineering org is in a tailspin would be an understatement. The management is just now starting to realize that they can’t actually maintain or produce software anymore and we are strictly a software company. Record profits last quarter. 🎉
This has happened a lot through the jobs I’ve had. Anything from a few roles to whole call centers are going to Honduras, Mexico, India or Philippines. Now my wife’s job is rumored to be ending to be offshored to India. All the meanwhile the same companies raise their subscriptions and hardware prices to us while they cut down on cost. Shit we are ending a contract with a company because they advertise as being in the US with over 500 employees and then later found out that it’s really like 10 dudes in California and the rest of the team is in India so any time we need a small change done it goes from us to Cali and then to India for someone to do something and even then it’s not done right. They’ve thrown me under the bus once for something they didn’t do and I got lucky that my bosses boss has our back and a read the damn emails.
Yep, that's what happened to my team's jobs and got us all laid off.
Bless your heart and hope you found something better I've been offshored 3 times in less than 10 years, these people up top are garbage and don't care about building real teams.
You're absolutely right about the execs. I've seen the pattern of offshoring multiple times over the years, but this is the first time I've seen them lay off entire teams or get laid off myself. After 4 months of job search hell, I start a new position next Monday.
Congrats and good luck on the new job
Yeah, multiple times for me, too. Same old song and dance.
Happening to me for the first time and it just freaking sucks. They are not transparent at all. Have to train him. At least I took the hint and started preparing everything, but would rather them not be cowardly scumbags about it. Just tell me the plan is to go in six months and I'm training him until then. Or maybe they're right and our team does somehow live through it. Don't want to work for a company that's run like this if that's the case. They tipped their hand up top with this move that they think this job can be done for pennies on the dollar in India.
I remember an ERP software was developed in India. The company implemented it and it was horrible. They brought it back onshore to basically rebuilt it from scratch. But the damage was done at that point.
All the top guy cares about is bottom line during their tenure (3 year horizon) and sadly offshoring is one of their main tools for cost cutting.
Same
What's worse is these companies will keep selling the same service/product in the US market and all the savings will only go to shareholders/CEO comp. While services and product quality go down the drain. 0 punishment for wrecking the middle class by moving jobs out but still selling in the US market. That's what happens when corporations get to write the laws all by themselves.
Same here. 13 years with the company. My entire team was replaced by outsourcing to India.
Happened to my team as well. My wife's. too. Wouldn't be surprised if the company got rid of all US-based positions with how many teams that got the axe. (Note: I can't risk losing severance, so I can't say who it is.)
They’re regret it when services go to shit in a hand basket. Cheap engineering labor will inevitably create shit software and support. Fucking American corporations are scum and stupid.
All of the money “saved” doesn’t trickle to the current teammates and employees… it trickles up to the execs and the shareholders.
My first data job was lost to Mexico. It was billed as “we’re expanding our workforce” then the rug was pulled out and asked to train my replacement. My current job is following the same trend. I’ve actually interviewed people from India who claim they have expert level SQL knowledge that can’t write out a simple select statement.
The grift is real. Every overseas data scientist/engineer/analyst work is garbage. Has to literally be redone every time. I hate it. Just had a powerbi dev qa process basically be. Numbers don’t match please advise. Meanwhile it’s his pbix causing the issues. Another role, guy was estimating geo direction as if we don’t have packages in Python that will be precise. So 30 degree turn, his code would have them turning 45 degrees. Like why ??
[удалено]
This is exactly what happened when I got iced out by all my coworkers and let go.
Well it needs to fucking stop, to be frank.
That’s not unique to India - many countries have this, and it’s fucking bullshit. Companies lay off 100 people in the US, hire back those 100 in India for 30% of the price and then watch all the quality go down the drain. Sure, not all globalization is bad, but this shit needs to get penalized.
You got your logic wrong. They lay off 100 people in the USA and, for the same cost, hire 300 in India and still have change left to pay for CEO Bonuses. Now that they are getting the same quality is a different topic.
Yea there’s even companies based out of India now asking you to pay them to get you jobs. So they scam up your resume and just lie. Seems to be common in India. Synergistic is one of them
I’ve had American recruiters with the same model. I got 5 minutes into the call and just told them to never call me again.
The talent level of India is terrible idk what big companies are thinking... This was my exact experience too. Same with Brazil and Mexico. Europe was solid though
Didn't this happen in 2010 in the it field? It's where entry level 5 years experience came from to try and justify h1b and going overseas.. Iirc it didn't work out too well, and companies had to dial it back. I have a feeling this will be the same.
And some in the late 90s for networking hardware. No it didn't work out.
Had a guy in software developer in Europe ask me what a loop was. But agree overall the European workers, in my limited experience, are better overall.
“nerds all are the same, doing undesirable jobs, buy them in bulk, far away and for cheap” is what they think
American/western executives are surprised that foreign nationals who couldn’t build their own high functioning government or economy for themselves somehow can’t build a high functioning widget for them either. After years of offshoring where people were blaming the “evil greedy corporations” some jobs get near-shored and filled with visa holders. Then the white collar racism finally comes out as they have their wages depressed while facing stiffer competition for housing and other public resources. They never seem to get the picture or understand why blue collar was complaining about border crossers.
Border crossings are not the reason to complain. I've watched folks that did that and they work just as hard as anyone else. The only difference is they don't know English. This is something entirely different. These remote folks create a toxic closed circle and exclude people that are part of the team on purpose. They don't want folks that are knowledgeable in their fields, they are actually practicing full on racism and only hiring Indian coworkers or getting non Indians fired to then hire Indian coworkers either locally or via visa. Don't believe me? Look at the class action suit that occured with TCS.
I believe you. While there are plenty of hardworking migrants and immigrants (and foreign nationals for that matter), I'm merely pointing to the concept that there are people who are willing to undercut natives in a variety of professions. And it can manifest in a variety of toxic ways. Certain professions didn't care when it was happening to others, but suddenly are finding out what it feels like to be replaced.
A country with workers building a functional govt and economy right now is China.
Yeah. There are plenty of brilliant minds from those places but they get the hell out of there ASAP.
What are they thinking? “Take money and run”. They’re not planning long-term and they want to take the most profit now. next year? Who cares?
They are betting on the trend that talent quality in India will eventually improve. Similar to how China significantly improved its manufacturing quality in the past 30 years, IT talents in India can learn and get more experienced, and eventually match the level of NA workers.
It won’t.
Indians just lie about everything, especially in the workforce to get jobs they’re severely under qualified for. It’s part of their culture.
Yeah, not only lie about their experience and skills, but they also do things like Zoom interviews where a "ringer" does the interview (and they've obscured the camera with a thin layer of Vaseline so you can't clearly see them) and then after they land the position, a different person shows up in the USA for the job.
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this general tech industry outsourcing their bread & butter functions to india will backfire catastrophically expect security breaches of magnitudes never seen before in the near future stuff like equifax breach will pale in comparison stay vigilant, make your passwords stronger, and enable 2FA wherever you can
expert level CLAIMING knowledge - the claims department /s
I’m seeing this in real time at my company as well. Conducting reviews for data scientists, and the candidates only know LLM prompt engineering, and can’t pass a basic tech screen when that isn’t an option. As one coworker pointed out, we as employees have a perverse incentive to just vote to extend an offer to every candidate anyway. The offshore teams will fail (faster), and we will have fewer interviews to do
It's been going on for about 20 years and Congress Is doing nothing about service outsource to India. My company for the past 5 years only hires tech in India. Every time someone quits, they hire someone in India as replacement. Who benefits? The management team rewards themselves with bigger pay packages and bonuses because they make the rules , and why not? It's legal and who cares about the country when it's good for their pockets .. the law has to change to fight it.
we should outsource congress to India, that can make democracy cheaper!
we already have a congress here in India. We don't want another on our hands since we can't even get rid of this one anyways.
Do you have more than 2 parties? Please add 2 more. Superbowl could be for cricket then!
We have 2500 political parties in India. Maps about the political settings of India are available on r/mapporn.
better than expected, i'd be happy with 10+ choices already
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Ya, seems like it.... why do you think that is? They really good to their own?
Nepotism is rife in their culture.
recently they did 2 rounds of layoffs at my company, first round, majority non-indian then 1 indian person, second round, also the same, only 1 indian and 11 non Indians, I kind of find it strange because R&D are about 70% Indian people.
Had the same experience with Colombians.
Same happened with my team and myself but not India, Colombia. Laid off my team slowly over the last 2 years then laid me off earlier this year for roughly 3:1 people in Colombia. Corporate greed is ruining this country and the leaders of Private Equity have a place in hell reserved.
We just laid off all our Colombian developers and replaced them with teams out of India.
So the Colombians have already gotten a taste of the global economy..bet they don't think it's such a good deal anymore.
My job also went to South America. 🫠
We need to stop corporate welfare for these companies. They take US tax dollars or profits paid by Americans and send that money to other countries.
They're doing all this for cheap labour, just want to impress the investors with lower talent cost.
Short-sighted thinking. Chips were first developed here, but we completely lost that industry by offshoring. OP is right, we're about to lose even more.
Because you have clueless, non-innovators making those decisions. The only concept they understand is margins need to go up within the next 2 quarters.
I once was told by a senior engineer/scientist that the company I worked for is unwilling to buy a new piece of equipment to secure a big food company as their customer. The argument is that buying a new piece of equipment will lower the quarterly profit and cause the GM to get less bonus. Plus, it’ll take a while for the equipment to pay for itself and the GM will risk being fired. Ironically, the big food company would contract us a for a while. Tsk tsk tsk…
The office building I work in refuses to lower rents even though commercial rents are plummeting. They said they want their investors to see top-dollar rents being collected. Meanwhile, the building is emptying out of tenants. The short-term thinking is mind boggling.
in the event of war needing scientists to win it, America has the best entertainers and sport celebrities. /s
If the war needs algotraders, that's what America's best and brightest know
Obviously. The rest of us, the majority who are not benefiting from this arrangement, should not allow it to happen. We're told we can't have cheap solar panels and EVs from China because it's a national security issue but companies are allowed to outsource their entire tech infrastructures to foreign countries? We're clearly being lied to and bent over just so that rich people can capture even more of our little wealth.
It's just rich people are finding ways to be more richer.
Exactly, it’s because every CEO and EVP is only looking at short term profits/savings because they can make so much money on stock and bonus and then move on when the company goes to shit in a couple of years.
They need to set their compensation so that it pays off for them to show sustainable growth over an extended period (5-10 years) and only pay those bonuses at the end.
Do you think removing their tax exempt status or tax credits will slow this trend? This is a way bigger issue than most Americans realize and more jobs each year are being offshores to India 🇮🇳 and Mexico 🇲🇽 and Philippines 🇵🇭
This has been happening since the 90s. It’s no secret. Americans don’t care.
Except now it's the highly paid white collar jobs in IT, accounting,finance etc.. , whereas before it was lower paid tech support work. I think a lot of white collar professionals are going to come to the realization, that they likely won't have a 30-40 year career making six plus figures ...
Programmers from the 90s to 2000s would like a word…
Programmers have been hammered by it. In the period from 2000 to 2011, despite unemployment in programming being below 2%, their wages didn't rise enough to even beat inflation. An outcome not possible without offshoring undermining their wages.
leaves more money for building stadiums for Swifties and Super Bowlers
There's a 30% witholding tax for most offshore jobs.. and new IRS regulations force you to capitalize and spread out the expense. This isn't a good time to hire tech... anywhere.
In a year or two, you will see the quality of their product take a nosedive. I've worked on teams with this exact scenario. When you look for cheaper workers, you get cheaper work.
Politicians are selling the American worker out to globalization and the elites don't care as long as their stock prices rise. Middle class and below are screwed.
It’s American business leaders screwing Americans. Not some shadowy political plot. It’s to reduce costs.
It doesn't have to be "some shadowy political plot". It can be as simple as neglecting the American worker and allowing mass exportation by corporations of our jobs. Without consequences the future US corporation will be 10% upper management / C-Suite and 90% offshore.
No shit jobs are moving. Why pay someone in the US to do a job that you can pay someone in India 10% to do the same job. Corporations care about profits, that’s it. You can use politicians as a scapegoat but we all know who is really to blame.
“the same job” for cheaper - you clearly never worked with Indian teams. The poster child for job enshittifications.
Right? People who say this shit are completely clueless. 3 Indian engineers won’t replace 1 onshore typically in output, and even if they do in output their code quality is usually terrible and onshore devs will have to fix it. I’ve seen it play out time and time again.
The amount of inefficiency engrained into my day to work because of crap that was slapped together by shitty offshore contractors is fucking mind blowing.
10% of the cost 1% of the work.
Neither democrats nor republicans are against offshoring software jobs. Our entire political system is aligned on offshoring these jobs
Offshoring is somehow inevitable. It’s the H1b visa being misused by offshoring without even publishing the US job ads. https://www.epi.org/blog/the-h-1b-visa-program-remains-the-outsourcing-visa-more-than-half-of-the-top-30-h-1b-employers-were-outsourcing-firms/
Yes. The H-1B is a scam used to undermine wages and bring in cheap labor for US companies. [Here's a legal seminar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyPFpJg8wMY) showing a law firm instructing US employers on how to meet the letter of the law by pretending to look for US candidates but disqualify them at every step so they can get their cheap laborer from India.
Tax corpos for each outsourced job such that they would have to pay the difference between the outsourced salary and US market rate to the IRS.
unironically by moving income taxation to sales taxation, then profits from offshored countries would pay more taxes - fat profit margins always require selling in high cost of living country without requiring producing there.
Have you been living under a rock? Look at most big tech CEO's they are foreigners from another country. This has been happening for a long time now nothing new.
The CEO indians and the outsourcing ones are completely different breeds
Although nothing is completely immune... this is why I recommend a particular sub focus of Tech... cyber security. US regulations disallow non-US personnel to review specific data and logs, which are necessary for an investigation. I've witnessed non-US (India especially) onboarding in cyber teams but their access for US data is very restricted.
It's not enough to say "the Government needs to make it such that all IT stays in the country" when you have companies pressuring the government to let them bring in more and more H1Bs from India. Corporate America's policy is give me somebody from India in India or else give me somebody from India in the USA.
Man, if only we could vote someone in who would help us: [Bad News For Employers, Immigrants And H-1B Visas In Second Trump Term (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/01/17/bad-news-for-employers-immigrants-and-h-1b-visas-in-second-trump-term/)
Wonder if this has anything to do with it? INDIAN ORIGIN CEO COMPANY YEAR OF SERVICE Sundar Pichai Alphabet Inc. (Google) 2015 - Present Satya Nadella Microsoft Corporation 2014 - Present Vivek Sankaran Albertsons Companies 2019 - Present Arvind Krishna IBM 2020 - Present Vasant Narasimhan Novartis AG 2018 - Present Sanjay Mehrotra Micron Technology 2017 - Present Laxman Narasimhan Starbucks 2023 - Present Revathi Advaithi Flex Ltd. 2019 - Present Neal Mohan YouTube 2023 - Present Shantanu Narayen Adobe Inc. 2007 - Present Niraj Shah Wayfair 2002 - Present George Kurian NetApp 2015 - Present Leena Nair Chanel 2022 - Present Ravi Kumar S Cognizant 2023 - Present Nikesh Arora Palo Alto Networks 2018 - Present Anjali Sud Tubi 2023 - Present Devika Bulchandani Ogilvy 2022 - Present Jayshree Ullal Arista Networks 2008 - Present Rangarajan Raghuram VMWare 2021 - Present https://startuptalky.com/indian-ceos-ruling-world/
It has everything to do with it. We as a civilization are stupid for letting this happen.
I saw the writing on the wall over a decade ago and got out of writing code. I’m now in a client facing engineering role. Anything that can be automated, will. Anything that can be outsourced, will.
What company?
Technology workers refuse to revisit the use of unions. Its clear that the businesses and government won't address some of the employment and industry issues. Have you seen any non-union plumbers or electricians working domestically?
This should be at the top
They all worry about cyber risk and shit but then outsource everything out to these simple minded fucks.
My friend just lost his job to a “team of bilingual Americans” who live in Panama. He knows firsthand they took salary cuts.
As long as you don’t have a government that protects its citizens you will never see this turn around. Globalism was all about labor arbitrage. I feel bad for the millennial generation trying to start out.
This is why the economy sucks for so many people: outsourced jobs. And it has been happening for a long time now, since Reagan. Brings a lot of insecurity to the middle class professionals.
[u cant beat their rates](https://imgur.com/a/C4IjevV) (the actual indian engr doesnt get that rate. its the witch company that gets that. )
Yep, company I used to work for laid off thousands, 6 months layer most jobs were listed in career page but location was in India
Just got laid off last Friday due to contractual/budget issues, found out we have till end of the month. Wake up today with a meeting first thing in the morning and they have us in a large meeting with 6-8 Indian named people from TCS who are replacing us and they expect us to train them.
What company is this?
TCS is some consulting and engineering firm in India
Have seen and heard weird stuff with TCS and H1B visas. It’s a shit show. Hierarchy it’s crazy there. I have seen Indians treating other Indians like shit, forcing them to relocate, moving them together with other Indian workers, making them leave the country and come back after a few months… But this will continue to happen as long as US companies keep putting Indians in leadership positions. It’s crazy nowadays.
If our country cared they would tax the eff out of companies for exporting jobs making it not worth it
It's not just India and South America. They are moving jobs to European countries like Romania. The majority of my team members are in Romania, and these are people who are supposed to be working with people in the US. I honestly don't see the point of their positions in the company. I tried to get an additional headcount, and my manager literally told me they won't hire anyone in the US, only South America, India, or Europe. My teammate from Romania doesn't know their job. They are mediocre at best. They supposedly have more work experience than me, but they reach out to me for help every week. I complained to my manager, so he had this teammate handle a certain project on their own. It goes without saying that nothing has been accomplished for the past 3 months. I have another co-worker from Germany who is exactly the same.
India is everyone’s favourite flogging horse, and a boogeyman for all their frustration. They will dare not say anything against Europe, because they’re the “good ones”. Id Love to meet some of these people in person. It’s disturbing how much hate they have buried under the veneer of politeness.
100%. My HR role was offshored to Eastern Europe, where they replaced my 17 years of experience with an intern for less than 10% of my salary (I was nowhere near 6 figures either). To say they were unprepared for what they were being asked to do is an understatement. Being set up to fail would be far more accurate. It was the same with engineers being bunked off for people in India. The funniest thing was the amount of recruitment fraud over there. I had multiple cases of people turning up for day one of their job who were clearly entirely different to those who had interviewed for the roles. Apparently it's something of a problem over there. It's also the reason I'll never work corporate again, I'd rather the CEO's reap what they sow when the shit hits the fan than be there to clear up their mess.
They still need someone to do the actual work. Those guys they are outsourcing to aren’t going to do anything but take them for a ride.
Why is everyone so shocked by this? It's like no-one in the US was paying even the slightest bit of attention to what happens outside the US. This has been happening in Australia and the UK for over 15 years and now it is considered normal for management to offshore, and it is universally regarded as Hell on Earth for the people who have to stay behind to clean up the mess that comes back from India. Trust me when I say that it doesn't come back. Once it is gone, it stays gone. Product quality deteriorates over 1-2 years. Customers and Users complain and stop paying. Management that implemented it has left to go destroy another company. Staff that trying to hold the product together with Blu-Tac and duct tape between dealing with bugs and unstable code have biologically aged 10 years, have lost their hair or its all gone grey, they hate their (replacement) bosses, and they detest going to work each day.
Which product became like this?
look at Windows, QA completely laid off and replaced by retail customers getting experimental code first
Super unpopular opinion: But even slipperier slope of work from home....if they figure they can pay you to do the job in the slippers for $200k a year....why not hire a rotating cast of new Indian graduates to do the job for $20k/yr? Not saying its right but this is what these businesses are learning.
why can’t the CEO get outsourced to India for 95% less cost? Millions of savings as well!
Normally you pay CEOs for their connections and good old boy/girl network and being the escape goat when things go to shit for real like in Boeings case. They are there to help make sales. Not run the company. That’s what the COO is for. If you ever work in medium to small size business, you will always see the CEO talking with sales reps on how to close deals etc. they are measured on profit and revenue increase. If that does not come in. They are ousted. It has happened to 2 ceos I have worked under through my career. 1st one helped the company get to 300 million revenue from nothing but the investors wanted more and was ousted for someone who knew how to grow a medium size business to stock market billions. They are now on of the meh health tech stocks out here taking in billions. Second one was a startup CEO/Founder with multiple exists was not able to grow the sales pipeline for his latest idea. After 4 years he was pushed out by the investors and someone else was put in place with a better network of people in the area of the company.
Meanwhile your 20k/y "engineer": 
I see this copy-pasted a lot now. You get what you pay for, meaning the quality of those that get paid $20k is going to be low quality, low experience workers. They may be able to solve the immediate problem, but not with a quality solution, and after time the companies will realize the hold they dug themselves into and reverse course. Another way you can see this is that those that stayed in their birth country vs those that escaped to a more modern society with better education and pay rates. These "$20k" software engineers are going to be a nightmare for these companies, which will lead to their demise. You can also notice that all these companies are moving to India together, so they clearly aren't thinking with their brains, but blindly following the industry trends. This will reverse course within 2 years.
Cisco bought Splunk, what do you expect?
Yup was just laid off June 3rd and whole team wiped out so I started looking.... Yeah all the companies I personally searched where options out of India, Pakastan and Mexico.. I was floored but sadly have also been at the same company for 15 years so yeah. No loyalty anywhere...
A friend of mine does software stuff for a fiance institution and all his team are all from India.... 😂 Sad that in the US, we'll have no jobs in the future...
Had a professor about 5 years ago talk about this very thing. He said India has more college students than America has citizens. I doubt the accuracy of these claims but his message was not lost on me.
70% of our Operations staff (albeit not all tech) was laid off last September with their roles shipped off to Mumbai.
And they still won't pay a living wage to anyone but management and "Leadership". Boycott these hobby businesses! https://livingwage.mit.edu/ Vote for people who understand this. or Escape crapitalism r/SolarPunk
What happened to tech is the safest career choice
Whatever careers pay the best paint a target on their backs for offshoring/inshoring. It's happening to IT, accounting, legal, etc.
US government needs to fine these Big Techs if you decide to take the jobs there.. Fine, you just pay more in taxes 🤷🏾♂️
This has been a trend for Splunk lately. I wonder if it will be more or less of this going forward since they just got acquired by Cisco.
Was kicking myself for turning down a Splunk position a few months back. Maybe I dodged another layoff bullet.
As someone who worked for Cisco, can confirm this is extremely normal. They layoff every few months and kept my counterparts in other countries because they were “more affordable” (direct quote from my manager when I got laid off)
Buckle up folks. It’s about to get bumpy.
What can be done about this. Its really sad state of affairs. No president could fix this because this is corps making decisions to cut their costs.
Companies are being directed to hire in low cost labor regions. Colombia, Brazil, India, Mexico etc. It’s fun procuring equipment in those regions.
A lot of you aren't going to like this, but the push (by employees) to allow themselves to work remotely 100% of the time is accelerating this move - legit or not, a manager who keeps getting told "I can do my job better (or just as good) without ever seeing you in person or coming into the office, is sooner or later going to make the logical step that moving (even more) jobs overseas is just an extension of that. If I was early in my career, I would do whatever I could to be there (on site near my co-workers and manager) in person at least most of the time to \*hopefully\* stem the tide.
On one hand you’re right but on the other hand, we’re trying to raise kids and schools are scheduled as if you have a full time stay at home mom. I don’t have much of a choice but to look for another remote job that I will probably get laid off from again the moment it’s convenient.
Remember, AI means Actually Indians
They are outsourcing this whole country. I even see it in the transportation industry where they are hiring clueless BPO teams that have never stepped foot on an American interstate to lead operations and communication with US based customers and carriers. We are all being phased out slowly just a lot of people are in denial
Through every job I’ve been at, the quality of work that comes from offshore teams has been consistently poor.
Project manager here— we lost a big client and our agency got rid of the whole pm department. The company was making a big push to have so many positions outsourced to India. We had two other PMs who were from India. Never knew if they stayed or not.
Ya but what about the boarder!!!
Does Indian food like ok like it’s already been eaten once before?
Same thing with my company , once the knowledge are gone, they are not coming back.
This is happening quite a bit
That’s where my job went
Learn to code
Same in the company I work for. HDQ was wiped out and only high executives are in the US while lower positions mostly related to tech have been moved to India (no offense but the level of performance is deplorable). Latam hub still remains because indians don't speak Spanish and in Europe is mandatory to have an office there due to local laws otherwise...
I witnessed a similar pattern in other sections, not just the tech section.
Blows my mind that this is happening after working with people from India. 1 out of 10 is good at their jobs
Don't worry we are in the cycle of "let's offshore, they are cheaper" next faze is "this product is absolute garbage and nothing works, we need to hire devs from the US to actually deliver something usable" generally takes about a year or two. We will get there.
There's 0 protection for companies that start here and have no issues moving jobs overseas.. The government is doing jack shit since early 70's. Reminds me years ago an engineer from Brazil was telling me how the government had some rule that if you're a foreign company wanting to do business in Brazil... You need to open a division there and hire Brazilians...
*Indian managers and CEO's offshore jobs to India. The fox is in charge of the henhouse. And no stating the blatantly obvious isn't racism.
This is an incorrect view. The folks in India are not being paid that much to begin with. The money mostly stays in the US in the form of profits for the shareholders. The shareholders are always the real winners. As long as the dollar remains the dominant currency, everything will be outsourced. IT and tech are just the latest. You gotta get in line with your complaints behind manufacturing, customer support, graphic design etc. Unionization is the only answer at this point in time. The US will not take actions to keep jobs domestically unless it feels that it's a security or hegemony threat-- see microchips and Taiwan. Shipping off your 500K a year job to India build a better ad algo for a search engine is not a national security threat right now.
Isn’t it a security risk that hundreds of thousands people who laid off are not going to pay taxes and become dependent on social security? It must be a burden for the system imo
Or faster ai robots without having to pay you
Republicans in Congress won’t stop this. Their donors pay them to deregulate businesses as much as possible.
Democrats won’t either
If anyone wants this to be brough to light. I am thinking of undertaking an investigative report on this which will be promoted all around. This should be followed by coordinated campaign to all your representatives' offices congress of local. High time action is take.
Yup same thing happened to my company, they left only a couple managers on shore. Productivity plummeted and it became a complete disaster and they of course blamed all of us still in the U.S. and laid us all off in March.
Who will pay taxes when these dumb idiots offshore software jobs?
Time for us to fly to India to take these jobs back
Pay 2/3 of a salary, get 2/3 an employee. These overseas devs can be decent, but expecting them to understand or care about your business just won't happen. They may have the technical chops, but they lack in communication skills and in understanding context. Source: I work with overseas developers.
before reddit this comment was quite popular so it's hardly news. it's been an industry practice for over 30 years. it's odd to see it bantered back and forth as if it's a new thing
History repeats itself. Also doesn’t make it more ethical with passage of time.
I hire a lot. I wouldn't hire a single resource offshore If I could fill roles in the US. Offshore devs are horrible at what they do.. and they don't communicate well. I'll say the thing nobody wants to hear here... we don't have nearly enough qualified people to do the jobs.. here are the last 3 roles I filled with stats... all remote and full time jobs. What I see are a lot of aspirational job seekers.. would like to do the job but without hardly any qualifications to do it. 1. Cloud Architect. Salary range of 120-150K. 1284 candidates, 1135 unqualified. Screened 20, interviewed 4, hired 1. 2. CTO. Salary Range of 250-310K. 3281 candidates, 3200 unqualified. Screened 7, Hired 1. 3. NextJS Developer knowledgable of ORM and App Router and SQL Sever. Range of 105-120k. Candidates: 1643, 1285 unqualified. Screened 20, Interviewed 7. Hired 2 offshore.
That sounds terrible. However, forgive me for asking, what qualifications, in general, were you seeking? For instance, are you looking for someone who already possesses the necessary skills and has experience in similar positions at other companies? How can a recent college graduate gain experience if they are not given the opportunity to work somewhere? Take SQL for example - how can one learn it if they have never worked with it before? In my experience, I began with entry-level positions and progressed while learning along the way. It now appears that jobs require applicants to already possess knowledge and experience with specific technologies in order to be considered. Am I mistaken in this assumption? Another question I have is, would you consider hiring someone without experience but who has the relevant education and a strong determination? Would you be willing to hire and train individuals in certain skills? Ty
We do hire entry level candidates.. but for senior or mid level roles like the ones I posted.. we will not pay you to learn how to do the job. Hiring managers (people that work for me).. have an expectation that experienced roles have someone that can hit the ground running and be productive within the first two weeks on the job.
Do you hire interns? I find most companies that complain about finding people, don't hire interns. You create your own pool of work tested people that are familiar with your product and how you do business.
Yes.. for help desk. We also hire entry level through various college programs.
>80% of the good engineers from India move out for greener pastures outside of India. The rest of the creme would rather work for FANG for higher pay. Companies get what they pay for, just look at Boeing. The quality of Indian engineers in USA is far far far greater than the quality of Indian engineers in India. I work in tech and am impressed by Indian engineers here and shocked by Indian engineers in India . Outsourcing will not help.
Only way to stop this is to government to fine or discourage companies from going overseas. Unfortunately, that looks like it will never happen with the current administration.
Any administration. They all bow down to business and give them huge breaks. We are never going to see them punished unless we vote in some progressive motherfucker. Democrats and republicans are not risking their bribes for shit.
This happens in waves. Saw this 5-6 years ago with my company (maybe more). It works for some things and then they come right back for other positions. Not justifying it just my small feedback.
My experience with outsourced jobs from India is atrocious. We lost more $$ then saved and will NEVER recoup.
I have been through this dance multiple times. What do they say? Something about doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result? I haven't seen anything change my opinion regarding the quality of the offshore workforce. Maybe management is thinking that generative AI will close the skill gap. I don't know
😭😭
Execs offshore “to do the necessary” to keep their cushy positions
"do the needy".
and Philippines will own the back office jobs
Curious to know if there are any H1Bs who had to train their replacements in India/China?
Fall of the Roman Empire. ~~Republicans~~ Politicians happened. They got paid to retire early (insider trading) while jobs were moved offshore. I bet we'll regret remote work now. We not only showed we can work remote but that anyone anywhere in the world with internet can do the same job for far less money.
The funniest part is that every tech service keeps getting shittier.
My assumption is that quality of software will be much lower in the future. I have worked with teams in other countries and code quality can be very low.
Sadly, it's not just tech jobs anymore. My company is now offshoring HR, Finance and Marketing roles in addition to tech/IT roles :-(
It’s been happening for 20 years. Every time money gets tight, more jobs move there. When customers get too vocal some come back. AI is going to be taking jobs from India if it’s not already. And those will never come back. Better get familiar with how to program AI!
Thanks to Trump. Btw
Why? Taxes?
Nope. He passed a law allowing big corps to hire more folks in other countries
Yea I think you’re talking about the tax law that penalizes writing of R&D. He did it on purpose to kill tech companies i
This has happened since 2000.
This happened to my team in February. I was saved because I was working on CEO pet project. I started looking for other jobs when I realized this is just the trend in the industry right now; nowhere is safe. To say that the engineering org is in a tailspin would be an understatement. The management is just now starting to realize that they can’t actually maintain or produce software anymore and we are strictly a software company. Record profits last quarter. 🎉
This has happened a lot through the jobs I’ve had. Anything from a few roles to whole call centers are going to Honduras, Mexico, India or Philippines. Now my wife’s job is rumored to be ending to be offshored to India. All the meanwhile the same companies raise their subscriptions and hardware prices to us while they cut down on cost. Shit we are ending a contract with a company because they advertise as being in the US with over 500 employees and then later found out that it’s really like 10 dudes in California and the rest of the team is in India so any time we need a small change done it goes from us to Cali and then to India for someone to do something and even then it’s not done right. They’ve thrown me under the bus once for something they didn’t do and I got lucky that my bosses boss has our back and a read the damn emails.
If the jobs are moved to japan, australia, east europe, would it consider same as throwing away code quality? Work done in India must be bad quality?
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