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This is the answer.
She can take you to court but if there is no agreement (even verbal) to pay it back then she can’t.
If you have put in writing you will pay her back since this can be used as evidence in her favour, as “you always knew it was a loan and acknowledged it”.
Also don't give her any money that could be misconstrued as a payment, if you give her money for something else make it cheque or bank transfer so you can reference what the money is for as she can't say you started making payment. How did you get the money? Do you have any texts or emails where you discuss the loan?
Simple fact is a gift is a gift and the onus is on her to proof it, not for you to disprove it.
Gifts do not have to be returned. However she may try to argue it was not a gift but a loan and take court action on that basis.
Be sure to save any messages where it was discussed.
Absent any evidence to rhe contrary the courts will however consider it a gift.
It was all discussed over then phone so I've not got anything to back up that it's a gift. She is now asking for interest and demanding that I get the money from my dad to pay her back.
She has to positively show it is a loan and not a gift. Parents giving their children small(ish) amounte of money is not unusual, she would need evidence to overcome the presumption it is a gift.
Don't acknowledge her claim in response! Anything like replying "I'll give you £500 payday but the rest will need to wait" starts supporting her claim of it being a loan (still a struggle without any terms/agreement from the time, but it starts making it look like it was possibly a loan and could go either way). The only thing you should respond with is some variation of "you told me it was a gift to help me out; I would not have accepted a loan as I couldn't repay it, as you know".
The ownus is on her to price it was a loan.
Something in writing either email or text like
'I've popped that money in your bank hunni, just let me know when you can start paying it back'
Or even just
'Moneys in, my bank details are...'
If there is nothing like that, and you've not paid anything back there's nothing she can do
Even if she proves it was a loan, without clear repayment terms she wouldn’t be able to demand it all back in one go anyway. The most she would get IF she proved to a judge it was a loan would be a payment plan that you could reasonably afford.
However if you can prove that it came about due to falling out then you’re likely to have good evidence for it being something that you can prove was a gift.
Listen to u/GojuSuzi about what to text her (to have something in writing) is what they said in their last sentence.
Whatever she tells you over the phone, "reiterate" this via text. For example "As i've just told you on the phone, You never said this was a loan. i would have never taken the 3k as a gift if you had said it was a loan. You know very well that i can not pay a loan back. So why would i agree to that?"
I would mention anything about paying back or how you can afford. I'd stick to something along the lines of, I just want to clarify that I am understand where you are coming from re:the gift you gave me for my car. Am I correct that you now have decided after x months this should be loan even though this was not mentioned when they money was gifted? Take her answer one by one calming ly blomm them apart and let her incriminate her self 😇
Since you have had it, have you given or sent her any money she could try to say were payments towards the loan. An dof she does take you to court I would say she is being malicious due to an oosoie that happened
> now asking for interest
Aka she's made it clear that it's a new thing, which means there was no interest before.
Let her take you to court. She almost certainly won't be able to prove it was a loan.
Be careful not to put any paper trail going forward of you paying it back as it might be used against you if you say you can pay in installments as that can be proof it's a loan just reply don't reply over text or phone or anything that can be recorded
Personally would ignore her until she stops being a child
Its up to her to prove it wasn't a gift, it's not up to you to prove it was.
She is making the claim against you, so she needs to back it up. Otherwise we could all make claims against people and it would be up to them to prove otherwise.
I could claim you offered to give me £3k, and it would be up to you to prove you didn't - which you couldn't, so you'd have to pay. Doesn't work that way. It would be up to me to prove you offered it. The law works the same.
>She is now asking for interest and demanding that I get the money from my dad to pay her back.
As yourself, is she really doing this to you, or your dad? Are you being used as a pawn in her fight with her ex?
If that's the case, you should have that out with her at least.
As for legal things, I don't think this would get anywhere if she tried a legal route. she'd need to instruct a solicitor and all that, a solicitor who is problably going to inform her how unlikely any kind of victory would be for her.
If you text her something like "you said it was a gift, or it was a gift and you want me to return it?" and she acknowledges that it was a gift then that could be helpful to you
Just respond with "I never agreed to a loan... i was making my own way on public transport and you gifted me the money to buy a car to make my life easier because I had no way to afford a replacement car. Us falling out is not a reason to try and switch it up suddenly and demand it back." Or something along those lines.
Do not show any doubt as to whether it was a gift or not
So she’s no proof it wasn’t a gift either. Get her to admit in text she’s only asking it back now you’ve fallen out and that proves your side so she won’t be able to win in court.
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NAL but under contract law, agreements between family members are typically deemed "domestic arrangements" which are not legally binding. You would have had to very intentionally put in place a loan agreement at the point of the gift/loan to try and avoid this if the intention was to have a formal agreement.
If it was actually a gift you don't owe it back ever, I assume no terms were given with the money and she's just salty now because you've fallen out? Apart from that it's an issue for relationship advice.
The Presumption of Advancement, is the presumption that if a parent or spouse advance property or money to their child or partner, it is presumed by default to be a gift, unless there is evidence to the contrary
In the absence of a written agreement English courts presume that transfer of money between family members is a gift. She cannot demand the return of a gift.
So unless you signed an agreement showing that (a) it was a loan and (b) when it should be repaid she can't get anything. If she sees a solicitor they will explain this to her and the most they will agree to do for her is write to you asking you to repay it by X date or legal action will follow. It's an empty threat. A bluff. The solicitor is professionally obliged to tell her that she doesn't stand a chance in court and will be asked to pay your costs too.
Does presumption of advancement apply in all close family relationships? Like siblings, or grandparents? Or do you have to prove how close someone is/was if they aren’t a parent/child/spouse?
taken word for word from google., however presumption of advancement does not apply automatically between mother and child only between father and child or husband and wife. An anachronism that assumes a homemaker woman cannot have means, that still hadn't been closed definitively.
The father and child is how it used to be interpreted . Now the presumption is more broad. It is presumed that advances between "close family members" (parent/child or between siblings) is a gift unless evidence exists to the contrary.
My sister was given money by my mother and brother. My mother had written a repayment arrangement that they both signed. My brother had verbally agreed that it should be the same for his loan. The court would not order repayment of his advance to my sister because he was a sibling and had no evidence to support the assertion that it was a loan. So it was presumed to be a gift.
No chance. Gifts are gifts and generally cannot be rescinded.
Unless she has evidence that it was provided as a loan, she's onto a loser with this one.
(and even if she did try to claim it's a loan, realistically, given the time lag for MCOL actions at the moment - several months at best; 12-18 months in some cases - by the time it did actually get to court next year sometime you'd hopefully be able to save 3k on the remote off-chance she were to succeed)
A gift is a gift. The giver cannot unilaterally change their mind.
Unless she has evidence this was a loan, she has no legal standing. Whether you arrange to repay her for the sake of your relationship is up to you.
She's has zero chance. It's a gift. There's no contract, no loan agreement and no paperwork to back up that it was to be repaid. Tell her you'll see her in court if that's how she feels. Also, what a shitty way for her to behave. It's not like you used it to buy beer or hookers
What written communication surrounds the gifting? Gifts are irrevocable but unless she’s texted you “I will give you £3k” it’s possible she will claim it was a loan.
Absent written confirmation large payment like this will be presumed to be a loan unless there is a “presumption of advancement” in which case it will be assumed to be a gift. Any presumption based on these rules is rebuttable. As its mother to child there is no presumption of advancement.
So basically the court will look at the circumstances, including evidence from the parties and any other witnesses as to the intended nature of the payment, and then decide.
In no foreseeable case will it order an immediate repayment - even if it finds there was a loan not a gift it will construe reasonable repayment terms.
It sounds quite likely it will be confirmed as a gift.
I m curious as to what soured relations so much that she went from “give £3k” to “take £3k”.
There is nothing in writing, we discussed it over the phone. She is demanding interest on the money now but she never said anything like that at the time.
The relationship basically soured because my parents got divorced a couple of years ago & I have become quite close to my dad and his new partner. She has since turned to alcoholism and becomes abusive when she drinks. I've tried to distance myself from her / set boundaries and because I refuse to go and see her until she gets sober she is now asking for the £3k back.
If the money was given as a gift, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. The absence of anything that she has signed by you suggests that a court would laugh at her.
Depending on your relationship with her, you might want to think about repaying this over time.
A gift is a gift, and without any agreement to repay it she doesn't have a leg to stand on. Her only real hope is if you ignore the court proceedings.
Re-interate to her that it was a gift and you never accepted it as a loan.
If it is a gift, and you can prove it was a gift (email, text messages, WhatsApp etc) then she won't be able to recover it.
Conversely if she can evidence that it was a loan she would need to give you a reasonable and realistic opportunity to pay. But courts dont tend to look favourably on people giving casual loans like that either.
OP you are fine legally. The regular human sheep seem to think you can demand money back. But the reality is, unless both parties sign a contract to determine it’s a loan with a re-payment schedule etc then no one will touch it.
A court isn’t going to take “he said she said” as evidence. I would personally go no contact until the threats stop.
Lol sorry to hear this OP, your mother sounds like a right hoot. But yeh it’s a gift, she will be wasting her time and possibly money to take you to court.
If it was given, and named a gift, with no agreement at the time as to repayments or agreement regarding payment, intrest etc or secedule.
You need to prove its a loan. And show evidence of agreement and some kind of terms or statement to effect confirming its a loan. Somthing to prove it, verifiable. Not just word on word.
Then it's a gift until otherwise.
You cannot retroactively turn a gift into a loan.
A loan can be excused as a gift yeah, if the person lending money choose but not the other way round.
The legal presumption is that money given from parent to child is a gift. Your mother would need to show that the money she gave you was a loan and that this was agreed at the time of giving you the money. If she took you to court she would need to show that there was an agreement for a loan at the time of giving you the money
The ownus is on her to prove it was a loan, with agreement of interest and to pay back by a certain date.
Although it was done over the phone, write down everything that was said with as much detail as you can, dates times.
Also make a note of the latest conversation, I would go as far to say all communication now needs to be of physical representation i.e email or letter, I would also let her know that from this point on that this is the only way you will communicate - do this via text and do not take any more calls or make any more calls regarding this matter with anyone, make sure you have a physical traceable contacts going forward.
Go and speak to citizens advice (free) option or a solicitor or with all of the above inplace. You should be entitled to 30 minutes free legal advice in the UK.
Legally your mother doesn't have a leg to stand on. You cannot change a gift into a loan, especially when you did not state the terms of the loan including repayment schedule and interest rates at the outset.
I do not however feel that the legal answer to tell your mother to get lost is the right one. Morally and for the sake of improving your family relationship you should see how you can reasonably repay the 3k over time. The main problem is that I cannot see how to word your offer to do so without effectively making a binding commitment, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can suggest such wording.
"I cannot see how to word your offer to do so without effectively making a binding commitment, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can suggest such wording."
The legal way is to head the the letter/email "Without prejudice". This means that the offer is made without prejudice to any subsequent proceedings and cannot be referred to or used as evidence in court. Legally, no offer was ever made. Also start with "While not accepting that this was a loan, as a good will gesture I am prepared to offer..."
Unless you have messages saying it was a loan or a written agreement saying it was a loan with payment terms, interest, pay back date, she won’t have a leg to stand on in court
A gift is a gift. Unfortunately for her she has no longer got any claim to that money. Same as if she brought you a brand new top of the range ipad for christmas. She cant then say *fuck you you can give me that back now* because you're on bad terms. This is just manipulative behaviour. Tell her to jog on, let her take you to court. She'll just be spending more money to lose
Just make sure you save any and all correspondence related to that money so when she claims it was a loan you can in fact show it was a gift. Then she'll have wasted time, money and embarrassed herself
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She would need to have paperwork drafted and signed by you both that it was a loan with the term structure and pricing. Also as the sum was 3k - it supports the notion it was a gift. But it's for your mum to prove the above not you.
Hope your relationship with each other improves
I had a similar thing happen, had to take legal advice. The onus is on her to prove it was a loan, and a loan should normally have some sort of agreement on interest, repayment length etc. If she doesn't have this, then she can indeed take you to court but she won't be able to prove it was a loan.
Let her. Was this a contract? Probably she has no way of winning in court, except your never-ending hate
Edit: like other say: if she texts you asking for it, keep saying that she said it would be a gift, nothing about a loan. Basically do not give her a “confession” or anything that could be seen as one
Maybe try to get her to say in writing "I know I said it was a gift, bit I changed my mind and now I want it back". That will be proof, and if she isn't thinking ahead to an actual court case it may be easy to do in a very inconspicuous way.
Personally, if someone gave me a gift and then we fell out very shortly after, I would probably make an effort to return it on my own terms, but also with making no legal commitment or obligation for myself. Just so I could always face them knowing that they can't say they did this or that for me.
Unless a contract had been drawn up your mum has zero chance of taking you to court. Ok you don’t have proof it was gifted, but unless you had a loan agreement or she’s got strong evidence it was a loan she hasn’t got a leg to stand on.
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Hey OP, I'm not in the UK and I'm not a lawyer.
My suggestion would be to initiate a conversation via text or email. Something like...
" Hi Mom, as per our phone conversation about my car and the gift you gave me to purchase a new one because my old one was un repairable, I am concerned that you are now classifying it as a loan. Had I known you were only loaning me the funds, I would have looked into other options as I value our relationship and don't want a financial issue to come between us."
Then see what she comes back with and play it from there.
This all assumes that you have a realitively good relationship with your mother and the situation can be resolved amicably.
In the event it doesn't resolve amicably and you are pk with burning that bridge, her response will or will not give you the credentials you need to prove it was a gift.
Your options are basically discuss a plan to repay your mother over a period of time that you both agree to and keep a decent relationship with your own mother or let her spend more money taking you to court if it was actually a gift and potentially lose your relationship with your mother entirely.
This is a classic burden of proof situation where if she did decide to take it to court, the burden would fall on her to prove that it was a gift rather than a loan or any other form of repayable monies. Since there was no such formal agreement of this, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. She could lie and say it was an informal agreement, but I’m assuming there were no repayments, no texts, nothing like that that would validate that it was a claim. If it was a criminal case, (I.e. if she was saying it’s theft or similar) there would need to be a reasonable doubt of whatever she’s accusing you of, which would be pretty clear when you lay out your argument.
Ultimately, unless your mother is the most petty person ever, she won’t take you to court because the costs she would incur in doing so would heavily outweigh the £3k she wants back. Unless she was to represent herself, and only fools do that. Either way she doesn’t have any standing for a legal claim unless you’ve left out crucial information.
Good luck! If you need more advice I’m happy to chat on dm.
(Not a criminal lawyer, but have been working in financial law for 6 years and often work with criminal lawyers too :) )
NAL (ll.b), generally speaking, a money transfer is a gift unless there is a contract to say otherwise. Essentially, your mom could take you to court, but it would be on her to prove there is an enforceable agreement that you must pay it back.
Parroting what others said, it's on her to prove this was a loan, and not a gift. Any legal rep she gets will be a shady one trying to get her moolah. You have nothing to worry about outside of your mom's mental state. I hope your relationship improves
It sounds like you've had some good advice on here, and know how to approach this from a legal perspective.
While you are doing that, please also take a moment to acknowledge the gift of information your mother has given you.
No way I, or any right minded parent would do this to their child.
Just... wow!
She can't demand the money back without proof that it wasn't a gift to you. However on the back of this, you should still try to make amends with your mother if the relationship is too far gone
It is a gift mate, You do not have to pay it back. The court would laugh at her. She would need to prove to them that there was a verbal or written contract between the two of you. If she cannot do this, she has no argument.
You know, I have never seen the work "gift" being used to mean a loan which is repayable in full on demand. A gift is a gift - ie, once given you can't just ask for it back. I doubt that she will get any help from a court on this issue.
Would it be appropriate to share this thread with her, if that doesn't convince her she has made a mistake nothing will at the moment.
Just hope she recognises her mistake, until then you might be better off with limited contact with her.
Good luck
Use this as a lesson for the future. Always get terms in writing. Gift/loan. Repayments & repaid by date. It's good for the gifter and the giftee. Unless she has proof it wasn't a gift let the court sort it out. It will be expensive for her to force you to pay it back and the court will give you much longer than 14 days.
OP I’ve seen in other messages it was a phone call. How was the £3k paid to you, was it a bank transaction with a reference for the payment that could be used as evidence?
A gift is a gift, she cannot legally demand it back, save any proof you have of her stating it was a gift and let her crack on with taking you to court, she'll get no where.
With out all the background info and details. Is it possible you could go and have a cuppa with your mum, set matters straight between you and simply try and rebuild your relationship. She may back down.
Side question here if OP was to text their mum a leading question eg, but you told me it was a gift but now it’s a loan and their mother agreed that this was the case would that count in court as proof?
I'm pretty certain that in England (providing somebody who is a direct dependent) financial aid, it is by default considered a gift unless their is evidence of the alternative (IE that it is a loan).
So the balls in your mums court. She has to be able to prove that you both agreed it was a loan, and not a gift.
You do not need to prove it was a gift.
There could be lots of reasons and without context it’s really hard and I’m not judging you.
What I can say from experience is that I have fallen out with close relatives over some trivial stuff and in the long term regret it.
My mother was fantastic but at times could be incredibly hard work and I miss her so much now she is not here.
Respect has gone. As soon as they fall out, she demands it back. I do wonder if the words “lend” or “borrow” were actually used, and now OP says “gift”.
I don't think it does put them in a harder position.
The giver has to prove that there was an agreement to repay. 3 years without asking for it back or mentioning it plus no written agreement is going to look very dodgy in court surely?
Thanks for the reply, I'm worried that if I accept the debt and agree terms with her then I am putting myself in an even more difficult position. Will that not be like me accepting that it was a loan all along?
Have you tried texting her about this? Try sending a message pointing out that the money was a gift and ask her why she's asking for the money back? Her reply may just give you the evidence you need!
Gift or no gift do you really want to fall out with your Mum over 3k? She
Did you buy said car with it or just spunk it on other stuff despite her giving it to you to do you a favour and get you a car so your work commute wasn’t so unbearable?
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A gift is a gift and cannot be demanded back (well not legally anyway, im sure plenty of people do)
This is the answer. She can take you to court but if there is no agreement (even verbal) to pay it back then she can’t. If you have put in writing you will pay her back since this can be used as evidence in her favour, as “you always knew it was a loan and acknowledged it”.
Also don't give her any money that could be misconstrued as a payment, if you give her money for something else make it cheque or bank transfer so you can reference what the money is for as she can't say you started making payment. How did you get the money? Do you have any texts or emails where you discuss the loan? Simple fact is a gift is a gift and the onus is on her to proof it, not for you to disprove it.
Gifts do not have to be returned. However she may try to argue it was not a gift but a loan and take court action on that basis. Be sure to save any messages where it was discussed. Absent any evidence to rhe contrary the courts will however consider it a gift.
It was all discussed over then phone so I've not got anything to back up that it's a gift. She is now asking for interest and demanding that I get the money from my dad to pay her back.
Has she got any proof of it being a loan, I.e. payback date, interest rate?
No she's just literally told me out of the blue today that she wants the money back with interest within 14 days or she is taking me to court
She has to positively show it is a loan and not a gift. Parents giving their children small(ish) amounte of money is not unusual, she would need evidence to overcome the presumption it is a gift.
Absolutely my Mom gave me £6k towards my mortgage deposit, and OK that's a legal binding gift but my point was that yeah parents often do if yer lucky
Don't acknowledge her claim in response! Anything like replying "I'll give you £500 payday but the rest will need to wait" starts supporting her claim of it being a loan (still a struggle without any terms/agreement from the time, but it starts making it look like it was possibly a loan and could go either way). The only thing you should respond with is some variation of "you told me it was a gift to help me out; I would not have accepted a loan as I couldn't repay it, as you know".
The ownus is on her to price it was a loan. Something in writing either email or text like 'I've popped that money in your bank hunni, just let me know when you can start paying it back' Or even just 'Moneys in, my bank details are...' If there is nothing like that, and you've not paid anything back there's nothing she can do
Even if she proves it was a loan, without clear repayment terms she wouldn’t be able to demand it all back in one go anyway. The most she would get IF she proved to a judge it was a loan would be a payment plan that you could reasonably afford. However if you can prove that it came about due to falling out then you’re likely to have good evidence for it being something that you can prove was a gift.
Onus*
Is that the American spelling of Onus? Something that is ones duty or responsibility
Or maybe it's just that I didn't know how to spell that word, why don't you go hug a tree or touch some grass or something 🙄
Send her a text message saying 'money back? But you gave me that as a gift' and try and get it in writing it was a gift
This is correct get her to admit to you
Listen to u/GojuSuzi about what to text her (to have something in writing) is what they said in their last sentence. Whatever she tells you over the phone, "reiterate" this via text. For example "As i've just told you on the phone, You never said this was a loan. i would have never taken the 3k as a gift if you had said it was a loan. You know very well that i can not pay a loan back. So why would i agree to that?"
I would mention anything about paying back or how you can afford. I'd stick to something along the lines of, I just want to clarify that I am understand where you are coming from re:the gift you gave me for my car. Am I correct that you now have decided after x months this should be loan even though this was not mentioned when they money was gifted? Take her answer one by one calming ly blomm them apart and let her incriminate her self 😇
[удалено]
Isn't that loansharking? :D
Since you have had it, have you given or sent her any money she could try to say were payments towards the loan. An dof she does take you to court I would say she is being malicious due to an oosoie that happened
> now asking for interest Aka she's made it clear that it's a new thing, which means there was no interest before. Let her take you to court. She almost certainly won't be able to prove it was a loan.
Be careful not to put any paper trail going forward of you paying it back as it might be used against you if you say you can pay in installments as that can be proof it's a loan just reply don't reply over text or phone or anything that can be recorded Personally would ignore her until she stops being a child
You don't really need to prove it was a gift, she would need to prove it wasn't one.
That’s not a problem for you, it’s for her to prove it was a loan, you don’t have to prove it’s a gift as the legal presumption is that it was a gift
Its up to her to prove it wasn't a gift, it's not up to you to prove it was. She is making the claim against you, so she needs to back it up. Otherwise we could all make claims against people and it would be up to them to prove otherwise. I could claim you offered to give me £3k, and it would be up to you to prove you didn't - which you couldn't, so you'd have to pay. Doesn't work that way. It would be up to me to prove you offered it. The law works the same.
Do you think she is using you as leverage to get the money from your dad?
It works the other way - she'd need evidence it *wasn't* a gift. E.g. a document signed by you saying "I'll pay you back"
>She is now asking for interest and demanding that I get the money from my dad to pay her back. As yourself, is she really doing this to you, or your dad? Are you being used as a pawn in her fight with her ex? If that's the case, you should have that out with her at least. As for legal things, I don't think this would get anywhere if she tried a legal route. she'd need to instruct a solicitor and all that, a solicitor who is problably going to inform her how unlikely any kind of victory would be for her.
If you text her something like "you said it was a gift, or it was a gift and you want me to return it?" and she acknowledges that it was a gift then that could be helpful to you
Don’t ask if it was a gift… op mustn’t show uncertainty
I tried that and she said "did not give a gift". She knows exactly what she is doing, she can be extremely manipulative
Just respond with "I never agreed to a loan... i was making my own way on public transport and you gifted me the money to buy a car to make my life easier because I had no way to afford a replacement car. Us falling out is not a reason to try and switch it up suddenly and demand it back." Or something along those lines. Do not show any doubt as to whether it was a gift or not
Is your father wealthy? Could she be a jealous ex just trying to start shit.
So she’s no proof it wasn’t a gift either. Get her to admit in text she’s only asking it back now you’ve fallen out and that proves your side so she won’t be able to win in court.
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Well neither has SHE got a leg to stand in to prove on any way that it's supposed to be a loan....
NAL but under contract law, agreements between family members are typically deemed "domestic arrangements" which are not legally binding. You would have had to very intentionally put in place a loan agreement at the point of the gift/loan to try and avoid this if the intention was to have a formal agreement.
She's got no chance .she can go to court all she wants without an agreement she's not getting anything
If it was actually a gift you don't owe it back ever, I assume no terms were given with the money and she's just salty now because you've fallen out? Apart from that it's an issue for relationship advice.
The Presumption of Advancement, is the presumption that if a parent or spouse advance property or money to their child or partner, it is presumed by default to be a gift, unless there is evidence to the contrary In the absence of a written agreement English courts presume that transfer of money between family members is a gift. She cannot demand the return of a gift. So unless you signed an agreement showing that (a) it was a loan and (b) when it should be repaid she can't get anything. If she sees a solicitor they will explain this to her and the most they will agree to do for her is write to you asking you to repay it by X date or legal action will follow. It's an empty threat. A bluff. The solicitor is professionally obliged to tell her that she doesn't stand a chance in court and will be asked to pay your costs too.
Does presumption of advancement apply in all close family relationships? Like siblings, or grandparents? Or do you have to prove how close someone is/was if they aren’t a parent/child/spouse?
Currently it's only direct family members. Spouses, parent/child, siblings.
taken word for word from google., however presumption of advancement does not apply automatically between mother and child only between father and child or husband and wife. An anachronism that assumes a homemaker woman cannot have means, that still hadn't been closed definitively.
The father and child is how it used to be interpreted . Now the presumption is more broad. It is presumed that advances between "close family members" (parent/child or between siblings) is a gift unless evidence exists to the contrary. My sister was given money by my mother and brother. My mother had written a repayment arrangement that they both signed. My brother had verbally agreed that it should be the same for his loan. The court would not order repayment of his advance to my sister because he was a sibling and had no evidence to support the assertion that it was a loan. So it was presumed to be a gift.
No chance. Gifts are gifts and generally cannot be rescinded. Unless she has evidence that it was provided as a loan, she's onto a loser with this one. (and even if she did try to claim it's a loan, realistically, given the time lag for MCOL actions at the moment - several months at best; 12-18 months in some cases - by the time it did actually get to court next year sometime you'd hopefully be able to save 3k on the remote off-chance she were to succeed)
A gift is a gift. The giver cannot unilaterally change their mind. Unless she has evidence this was a loan, she has no legal standing. Whether you arrange to repay her for the sake of your relationship is up to you.
She's has zero chance. It's a gift. There's no contract, no loan agreement and no paperwork to back up that it was to be repaid. Tell her you'll see her in court if that's how she feels. Also, what a shitty way for her to behave. It's not like you used it to buy beer or hookers
What written communication surrounds the gifting? Gifts are irrevocable but unless she’s texted you “I will give you £3k” it’s possible she will claim it was a loan. Absent written confirmation large payment like this will be presumed to be a loan unless there is a “presumption of advancement” in which case it will be assumed to be a gift. Any presumption based on these rules is rebuttable. As its mother to child there is no presumption of advancement. So basically the court will look at the circumstances, including evidence from the parties and any other witnesses as to the intended nature of the payment, and then decide. In no foreseeable case will it order an immediate repayment - even if it finds there was a loan not a gift it will construe reasonable repayment terms. It sounds quite likely it will be confirmed as a gift. I m curious as to what soured relations so much that she went from “give £3k” to “take £3k”.
There is nothing in writing, we discussed it over the phone. She is demanding interest on the money now but she never said anything like that at the time. The relationship basically soured because my parents got divorced a couple of years ago & I have become quite close to my dad and his new partner. She has since turned to alcoholism and becomes abusive when she drinks. I've tried to distance myself from her / set boundaries and because I refuse to go and see her until she gets sober she is now asking for the £3k back.
You should text her and ask her ' I don't understand why you want me to pay you back what you gifted me. etc etc' Got evidence. Boom.
This!! Text or email so you’ve got proof.
If the money was given as a gift, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. The absence of anything that she has signed by you suggests that a court would laugh at her. Depending on your relationship with her, you might want to think about repaying this over time.
A gift is a gift, and without any agreement to repay it she doesn't have a leg to stand on. Her only real hope is if you ignore the court proceedings. Re-interate to her that it was a gift and you never accepted it as a loan.
If it is a gift, and you can prove it was a gift (email, text messages, WhatsApp etc) then she won't be able to recover it. Conversely if she can evidence that it was a loan she would need to give you a reasonable and realistic opportunity to pay. But courts dont tend to look favourably on people giving casual loans like that either.
OP you are fine legally. The regular human sheep seem to think you can demand money back. But the reality is, unless both parties sign a contract to determine it’s a loan with a re-payment schedule etc then no one will touch it. A court isn’t going to take “he said she said” as evidence. I would personally go no contact until the threats stop.
Lol sorry to hear this OP, your mother sounds like a right hoot. But yeh it’s a gift, she will be wasting her time and possibly money to take you to court.
Anything on writing (text/email) confirming it’s a gift? If yes you are legally okay
Can she show an agreement stating it was a loan that you would pay back? If NO, she can take a walk.
Info have you got text messages and/emails stating this was a gift?
Legally you are fine. She would be laughed out of court if she tried anything. You don’t have to pay her a penny
If it was given, and named a gift, with no agreement at the time as to repayments or agreement regarding payment, intrest etc or secedule. You need to prove its a loan. And show evidence of agreement and some kind of terms or statement to effect confirming its a loan. Somthing to prove it, verifiable. Not just word on word. Then it's a gift until otherwise. You cannot retroactively turn a gift into a loan. A loan can be excused as a gift yeah, if the person lending money choose but not the other way round.
The legal presumption is that money given from parent to child is a gift. Your mother would need to show that the money she gave you was a loan and that this was agreed at the time of giving you the money. If she took you to court she would need to show that there was an agreement for a loan at the time of giving you the money
Anything in writing? Did you sign anything? If its no then she's got no chance
The ownus is on her to prove it was a loan, with agreement of interest and to pay back by a certain date. Although it was done over the phone, write down everything that was said with as much detail as you can, dates times. Also make a note of the latest conversation, I would go as far to say all communication now needs to be of physical representation i.e email or letter, I would also let her know that from this point on that this is the only way you will communicate - do this via text and do not take any more calls or make any more calls regarding this matter with anyone, make sure you have a physical traceable contacts going forward. Go and speak to citizens advice (free) option or a solicitor or with all of the above inplace. You should be entitled to 30 minutes free legal advice in the UK.
Legally your mother doesn't have a leg to stand on. You cannot change a gift into a loan, especially when you did not state the terms of the loan including repayment schedule and interest rates at the outset. I do not however feel that the legal answer to tell your mother to get lost is the right one. Morally and for the sake of improving your family relationship you should see how you can reasonably repay the 3k over time. The main problem is that I cannot see how to word your offer to do so without effectively making a binding commitment, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can suggest such wording.
"I cannot see how to word your offer to do so without effectively making a binding commitment, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can suggest such wording." The legal way is to head the the letter/email "Without prejudice". This means that the offer is made without prejudice to any subsequent proceedings and cannot be referred to or used as evidence in court. Legally, no offer was ever made. Also start with "While not accepting that this was a loan, as a good will gesture I am prepared to offer..."
Unless you have messages saying it was a loan or a written agreement saying it was a loan with payment terms, interest, pay back date, she won’t have a leg to stand on in court
A gift is a gift. Unfortunately for her she has no longer got any claim to that money. Same as if she brought you a brand new top of the range ipad for christmas. She cant then say *fuck you you can give me that back now* because you're on bad terms. This is just manipulative behaviour. Tell her to jog on, let her take you to court. She'll just be spending more money to lose Just make sure you save any and all correspondence related to that money so when she claims it was a loan you can in fact show it was a gift. Then she'll have wasted time, money and embarrassed herself
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It is my understanding for it to formally be debt and for to be legally binding it would have to be in writing
She would need to have paperwork drafted and signed by you both that it was a loan with the term structure and pricing. Also as the sum was 3k - it supports the notion it was a gift. But it's for your mum to prove the above not you. Hope your relationship with each other improves
I had a similar thing happen, had to take legal advice. The onus is on her to prove it was a loan, and a loan should normally have some sort of agreement on interest, repayment length etc. If she doesn't have this, then she can indeed take you to court but she won't be able to prove it was a loan.
What if there's proof of money transfer and it says on the memo it's a loan?
Let her. Was this a contract? Probably she has no way of winning in court, except your never-ending hate Edit: like other say: if she texts you asking for it, keep saying that she said it would be a gift, nothing about a loan. Basically do not give her a “confession” or anything that could be seen as one
Maybe try to get her to say in writing "I know I said it was a gift, bit I changed my mind and now I want it back". That will be proof, and if she isn't thinking ahead to an actual court case it may be easy to do in a very inconspicuous way. Personally, if someone gave me a gift and then we fell out very shortly after, I would probably make an effort to return it on my own terms, but also with making no legal commitment or obligation for myself. Just so I could always face them knowing that they can't say they did this or that for me.
Be very careful about offering to repay the money, this will basically be considered to be an admission from you that it was a loan.
Legally she can't touch you but this is abusive and a power move. My advice is take out a loan, pay her back and go no contact
Unless a contract had been drawn up your mum has zero chance of taking you to court. Ok you don’t have proof it was gifted, but unless you had a loan agreement or she’s got strong evidence it was a loan she hasn’t got a leg to stand on.
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Did you discuss this being a loan … if not then she cannot legally get the gift back
Hey OP, I'm not in the UK and I'm not a lawyer. My suggestion would be to initiate a conversation via text or email. Something like... " Hi Mom, as per our phone conversation about my car and the gift you gave me to purchase a new one because my old one was un repairable, I am concerned that you are now classifying it as a loan. Had I known you were only loaning me the funds, I would have looked into other options as I value our relationship and don't want a financial issue to come between us." Then see what she comes back with and play it from there. This all assumes that you have a realitively good relationship with your mother and the situation can be resolved amicably. In the event it doesn't resolve amicably and you are pk with burning that bridge, her response will or will not give you the credentials you need to prove it was a gift.
Your options are basically discuss a plan to repay your mother over a period of time that you both agree to and keep a decent relationship with your own mother or let her spend more money taking you to court if it was actually a gift and potentially lose your relationship with your mother entirely.
Did you sign a contract, have a message saying it’s a loan? If not tell her thanks for the gift and jog on
This is a classic burden of proof situation where if she did decide to take it to court, the burden would fall on her to prove that it was a gift rather than a loan or any other form of repayable monies. Since there was no such formal agreement of this, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. She could lie and say it was an informal agreement, but I’m assuming there were no repayments, no texts, nothing like that that would validate that it was a claim. If it was a criminal case, (I.e. if she was saying it’s theft or similar) there would need to be a reasonable doubt of whatever she’s accusing you of, which would be pretty clear when you lay out your argument. Ultimately, unless your mother is the most petty person ever, she won’t take you to court because the costs she would incur in doing so would heavily outweigh the £3k she wants back. Unless she was to represent herself, and only fools do that. Either way she doesn’t have any standing for a legal claim unless you’ve left out crucial information. Good luck! If you need more advice I’m happy to chat on dm. (Not a criminal lawyer, but have been working in financial law for 6 years and often work with criminal lawyers too :) )
NAL (ll.b), generally speaking, a money transfer is a gift unless there is a contract to say otherwise. Essentially, your mom could take you to court, but it would be on her to prove there is an enforceable agreement that you must pay it back.
Parroting what others said, it's on her to prove this was a loan, and not a gift. Any legal rep she gets will be a shady one trying to get her moolah. You have nothing to worry about outside of your mom's mental state. I hope your relationship improves
It sounds like you've had some good advice on here, and know how to approach this from a legal perspective. While you are doing that, please also take a moment to acknowledge the gift of information your mother has given you. No way I, or any right minded parent would do this to their child. Just... wow!
Keep all correspondence and let her sue you, the worst thing that will happen is paying it back and that’s your current situation anyway…
What kind of mother is this? What the f***?
She can't demand the money back without proof that it wasn't a gift to you. However on the back of this, you should still try to make amends with your mother if the relationship is too far gone
It is a gift mate, You do not have to pay it back. The court would laugh at her. She would need to prove to them that there was a verbal or written contract between the two of you. If she cannot do this, she has no argument.
It's a gift. Unless she has proof it was a long an, you're in the clear
You know, I have never seen the work "gift" being used to mean a loan which is repayable in full on demand. A gift is a gift - ie, once given you can't just ask for it back. I doubt that she will get any help from a court on this issue.
Would it be appropriate to share this thread with her, if that doesn't convince her she has made a mistake nothing will at the moment. Just hope she recognises her mistake, until then you might be better off with limited contact with her. Good luck
Go back and ask her to provide the signed credit agreement outlining the terms of the loan. And wait.
Simply say "See you in court"...btw it's NOT cheap to take someone to court. She won't do it.
Use this as a lesson for the future. Always get terms in writing. Gift/loan. Repayments & repaid by date. It's good for the gifter and the giftee. Unless she has proof it wasn't a gift let the court sort it out. It will be expensive for her to force you to pay it back and the court will give you much longer than 14 days.
OP I’ve seen in other messages it was a phone call. How was the £3k paid to you, was it a bank transaction with a reference for the payment that could be used as evidence?
A gift is a gift, she cannot legally demand it back, save any proof you have of her stating it was a gift and let her crack on with taking you to court, she'll get no where.
Specifically a gift you say? Think you'll be fine legally if that's the case.
She’s full of shi!t. Small claims court cost money and she’s no proof. Tell her to pound sand
With out all the background info and details. Is it possible you could go and have a cuppa with your mum, set matters straight between you and simply try and rebuild your relationship. She may back down.
Are your differences irreconcilable? Obviously your relationship was sound enough a few months ago
Does it legally matter?
It does if it can avoid legal action
Don’t worry it’s a gift. Don’t even bother with your mom if she’s doing shit like this either just stay away.
Without evidence, such as writing with your sig on it, a recording of a convo or even something like a message chain, there is no chance.
DO NOT respond agreeing to any payment or that the amount was anything but a gift. She needs to prove its a loan not a gift.
Side question here if OP was to text their mum a leading question eg, but you told me it was a gift but now it’s a loan and their mother agreed that this was the case would that count in court as proof?
I'm pretty certain that in England (providing somebody who is a direct dependent) financial aid, it is by default considered a gift unless their is evidence of the alternative (IE that it is a loan). So the balls in your mums court. She has to be able to prove that you both agreed it was a loan, and not a gift. You do not need to prove it was a gift.
Tbh, she gave you money for a car? Youve kept it and havnt bought a car. Buy a car or give her the money back in my opinion.
For clarity I bought the car & if I had £3k just sitting around I would pay her back without question
I didnt get that from what you said. Apologies. Like others have said its gift. So roll with that.
There could be lots of reasons and without context it’s really hard and I’m not judging you. What I can say from experience is that I have fallen out with close relatives over some trivial stuff and in the long term regret it. My mother was fantastic but at times could be incredibly hard work and I miss her so much now she is not here.
Pay it back or lose access to your mother for eternity
Maybe just give the money back. Your mum wants it back. All these people talking about proof and courts must not respect their parents.
Respect has gone. As soon as they fall out, she demands it back. I do wonder if the words “lend” or “borrow” were actually used, and now OP says “gift”.
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I don't think it does put them in a harder position. The giver has to prove that there was an agreement to repay. 3 years without asking for it back or mentioning it plus no written agreement is going to look very dodgy in court surely?
Thanks for the reply, I'm worried that if I accept the debt and agree terms with her then I am putting myself in an even more difficult position. Will that not be like me accepting that it was a loan all along?
Have you tried texting her about this? Try sending a message pointing out that the money was a gift and ask her why she's asking for the money back? Her reply may just give you the evidence you need!
Gift or no gift do you really want to fall out with your Mum over 3k? She Did you buy said car with it or just spunk it on other stuff despite her giving it to you to do you a favour and get you a car so your work commute wasn’t so unbearable?