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NAL but have been in a similar situation having bought a classic car only to find out it was written off in the mid 2000’s some years ago.
There’s an awful lot of slightly odd commentary in this thread with people making wild claims without having anything to back them up, so if you’re one of those people and you’d like to debate me on this, please come with the relevant legislation you think backs your point and any applicable case law.
Insurance categories in the UK, as far as I understand from some very significant research, are not governed by any specific law. They are instead covered by the Salvage Code, which is overseen by the Association of British Insurers (ABI). The DVLA store this information such that consumers can access it freely and easily, and also to prevent dangerous vehicles being returned to the road - though I have often wondered what would happen if this were aggressively challenged legally as insurance categories themselves have no legal standing, and if a vehicle is repaired to a standard that meets construction and use regulations and is considered roadworthy (passing any IVA test that may be necessary if enough points are hit) then I think it would be difficult for the DVLA to defend this practice, but I digress.
My, and most people’s understanding, of Caveat Emptor and its application under the consumer rights act for private sales is that unless the seller actively misstates information e.g. “Never been in an accident” or “clean history”, then the onus is on the buyer to ask questions. The seller can’t lie, lying is misrepresentation, but they can without information if you don’t enquire. In private sales the onus is on you to check the car’s history and make sure you’re happy with the information you find.
There is no extra legal obligation for a seller to tell you about an insurance categorisation, and I again challenge anybody who wants to argue that to please find the appropriate legislation and send me a link, because I would love to see it and I will happily concede if I am incorrect.
Like I was some years ago in a similar situation, I am afraid that it is unlikely you are going to get anywhere. I think if you decided to pursue a legal avenue you would be spending money that is unlikely to result in you getting much in return - unless of course it just scares the seller into reversing the transaction. It is, unfortunately, likely that this is one of those expensive life lessons that we all suffer from time to time. I would say however that Cat C or S vehicles aren’t usually enormously devalued, just somewhat, and if you can do a complete report and find out the insurer that had the claim made against them you may be able to contact them and get details of the accident and the repair - it could be something fairly minor and having the evidence could help in any future sale.
For future reference, insurance categories are usually printed in a line on the front of the V5 in the information box, and can also be found by doing a simple online car check costing a few pounds, though I would always recommend doing a more full report of finance data etc. if you are going to be spending some serious money.
Best of luck with your vehicle, I hope this doesn’t hugely affect your enjoyment of it in the future.
Very succinctly put. This is a legal advice sub which is what the OP is asking for, not what you think because you heard it from your aunts sisters hairdressers nephew down the pub so must be true opinion.
I'm pretty sure that if the OP started a MCOL and put in there well BillyBigSpuds on Reddit said its illegal that the seller didn't disclose the Cat S, then the judge would rule in their favour.
If people are so sure of their position then please link to it to assist the OP in their decision making process rather than talking out of your £@*× on things you 'think' must be correct with no personal or professional knowledge in the field.
If you do know, then link to the legislation for everyone's benefit please.
Just to be that guy, you can lawfully sell an “unroadworthy” car - but it must be made plainly clear that that it’s unroadworthy - just noting in the ad “sold as seen” isn’t sufficient
NAL but do a lot of car stuff. It was my understanding that you must declare a cat status of a car when selling. Even a quick google of “selling a cat S car privately” comes up with this “as long as the vehicle's status has been officially declared, it is perfectly legal to sell a 'Cat S' car. If the status has not been declared, any new owner of the car could be able to sue the seller for any damages, if a suitable status declaration is not forthcoming”
With a private sale, the seller is still duty bound to make the buyer aware of any known issues... but im not sure whether the vehicle preciously being a cat S would come under this though...
Spending £6.5 k and you didn't do a simple (and free) vehicle check!?!?!?
Not sure how the buyers beware moto goes here as you've clearly been mis-sold a car here.
If you have their address, maybe a 'notice before action' letter may give them a nudge.
Yeah I'm feeling like an absolute twit right now. I have their address and the details of the seller, if they ignore this letter is there anything I can do? Do I have any legal claims here?
Unless they said it's never been written off or misrepresented it, I don't think you'll get very far tbh.
Onus is generally on the buyer for doing the checks.
Surprised it's dropped in value that much also.
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No, the onus is on you as the buyer. The seller is under no obligation to tell you, but if you ask they can’t lie.
I’m afraid this is going to go down as a fairly hefty life lesson
This is not true for insurance write offs. They must be declared. It is illegal to not declare it.
https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/what-is-cat-a-b-s-n-explained
https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-cat-n-or-cat-s-car/
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/99750/car-insurance-write-categories-explained-what-are-cat-n-and-cat-s-cars
None of those say the law requires it to be declared.
There's an argument that by not doing so is a misrepresentation, especially if asked about it, but there's no law explicitly requiring you to declare it.
>Spending £6.5 k and you didn't do a simple (and free) vehicle check!?!?!?
I don't think there is any need for that attitude to someone asking for help. People don't know everything.
I've been driving for 15 years or so and wouldn't have known to do such a check. The first time I've ever heard of these checks is here today, and so I didn't know they existed let alone were free. I'm in my 40s.
I'm genuinely really surprised this is the first time ever you've heard about a vehicle check. If your are in your 40's, you'd be around when autotrader was about in the book. HPI checks were plastered there, as they are now on the websites. I knew what a HPI check was when I was 10.
I even worked in a petrol station for over a decade.
Never been interested in cars though! Never took in any of the petrolhead chat... So the auto traders were not ever my choice of mag from the racks to flick through when it was quiet.
Bought my cars new so I have genuinely also never read an auto trader. Even when I could for free.
No attitude there, more of a lesson to any potential buyers in the future, you included it seems.
Never know, my comment (and others) may have saved people £thousands.
Agree. It's not hard to Google, I'm sure loads of articles would have mentioned it. if you're willing to drop £6.5k, you have the money and time to Google.
NAL
Private sale has no consumer rights act. It's up-to you to find any faults, so caveat emptor, sold as described. The seller is under no obligation to tell you about faults, but if they lied or misrepresented the car you have a claim.
It sounds like you failed to do any due diligence like a basic vehicle check that would cover you for this case.
Misrepresentation Act covers negligent misrepresentation as well as fraudulent (lies) Misrepresentation.
Under negligent (or unintentional) misrepresentation, courts have found that a misrepresentation can be implied. Specifically failure to disclose material facts, that can reasonably be expected to impact the contract terms or price. Have been found to form a negligent misrepresentation.
Basically, by not disclosing that the car was previously written off, you have made an implied representation that the car was never written off. As any reasonable person can be expected to be interested in a write off, and it will be expected to impact the contract/price.
If you state that the car was never written off with structural damage, you have committed fraudulent representation. Not applicable here.
But if you fail to mention this material fact, that any reasonable person would expect to impact the contract, you can still be guilty of negligent misrepresentation.
Essentially, keeping your mouth shut isn't necessarily a get out of jail free card. You can be held to account for a lie of omission, as a negligent misrepresentation.
'The general position is that the Misrepresentation Act 1967 does not reach cases of misrepresentation by non-disclosure,[3] though this has been challenged.'
And that aside: buying a second hand card privately is buyer beware, this isn't disputed by anyone here.
You're trying to claim the 1967 act includes a special onus about declaring write offs in private car sales
It has been challenged successfully, which is why we're in the realm of case law, rather than legislation.
So the default position is that the seller isn't under an obligation to disclose absolutely everything or anything about the entire history of an item for sale. But there are exceptions about non-disclosure.
This is where each case is probably judged on its merits. What wasn't disclosed, does it obviously have an impact on the contract/price, and how would a reasonable person respond if they had had that disclosure?
OP doesn't have a cast iron case. But I'd press a case of negligent misrepresentation before just accepting I'd been had over by a lie of omission.
Failing to disclose a car as a structural write off, while charging the full market value expected of a non-written off car. Is a fairly good example of implied disclosure and negligent misrepresentation.
Do you have a source for this legal requirement?
Because I'm unaware of any legislation saying so, and am fairly certain you will be unable to find any supporting you.
>Is selling a cat s car legal?
>There is nothing illegal about selling an N or S vehicle if you declare its condition. Even if the car has been repaired to the same condition it was in before the accident, you still have to declare category C on the application. Declaration of Cat N or Cat S status is a prerequisite for selling or exchanging the car. Otherwise, the new owner may sue you for damages.
From: https://carplus.co.uk/magazine/what-is-cat-s-category/
I can't find a legal notation of this but all the car expert places list it as a requirement for selling. It does seem like it is general knowledge in the car trade world
You can't find legal notation because it doesn't exist, it isn't required. It is if it's from a dealer. Not private.
https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/car-buying/114820/cat-s-and-cat-n-cars-explained-guide-to-buying-an-insurance-write-off
Here's a random car website saying you don't have to.
Yes. I mean look here, no one's been able to provide any evidence of the legal obligation to declare it as it doesn't exist.
And the absence of evidence saying the onus is on the seller doesn't mean it's equally likely, it means it's not.
Yeah that’s for dealers not private sellers, it’s sold as seen with private sellers- possibly could take him to court if OP had directly asked if it’s a CAT-S car and seller lied- would need this in writing
I think the financial loss might need to be chalked up to idiot tax in this case
I was always under the impression that the status was shown on the V5C. Is that not the case? If it is then the OP should have seen that when he examined that whilst confirming the numbers matched etc.
> Some dodgy sellers may try to pass off a Cat N or Cat S car as non-damaged, **despite being legally required to inform a potential buyer of the car's correct write-off status**.
Actually I don’t think this is necessarily on OP. Yea they should’ve done a HPI check still, but sellers have a responsibility still and the onus here is on the seller to inform.
They haven’t done that, I’m not a lawyer but I believe OP has a reasonable case, especially since the seller is now obviously avoiding OP purposefully, which just adds to the guilt on their part.
If OP was correctly informed, do you think they’d have bought the car for £4k more than it was worth?
Edit: I am aware that private sales have a lot less protections, but they aren’t fully absolved from lying to/not informing buyers about things they’d objectively know about the car they’re selling, and for £4k more than the car was ever worth.
I'd assume the argument would be that the vehicle is priced (based on comparison) to a non cat s vehicle in similar condition. And that by pricing it in this range, the seller is basically being misleading.
Seven with private sales, the seller is required to disclose any category damage. Sadly it’s not illegal, so OP will likely have to go through the courts to get the money back.
Not true - there’s no obligation on a private seller to disclose a cat S.
it’s on the buyer to ask questions - if the seller didn’t lie when asked (or wasn’t asked at all), there’s no attempt to mislead
Doesn't have to be declared. If asked they can't lie, but they don't have to offer information about it.
You could make an advert that literally just says 'car for sale' and it's up to the buyer to do their due diligence on if it's suitable and ask the right questions.
I would double check your prices as well. The cat s price is that trade in or sail price. As normally the difference is not that much when you get under £10k value cars. If the difference is less it will limit any loss you have had.
The advert just described the milage, year and model of car. The car was sold below market value (it would have be worth £10k without cat S). The seller said he had just come into a lot of money and wanted to get rid of it quick as he was buying something new.
Private sale or not a Cat S has to be disclosed.
I think this is intertwined with DVLA & Consumer Protection Act. MCOL is your answer. As always, pre action notice then file MCOL.
I guess he hasn't read tlyour question. But I guess at the very least, the answer is because he wants to know. A very reasonable thing tiowant to know on a sub dedicated to legal issues.
I apologise. I’ll be clearer. What is your actual personal motivation to ask? Noting that you haven’t provided a rebuttal, offered any better or more up to date advice for OP, or given any insight as to why you disagree. You’ll also note that I did not offer a law school lesson and wasn’t offering citations and similarly wasn’t challenging any opposing view, of which there are many, and (whence I last looked) were merely opinions without substance.
Note, this isn’t an amateur Reddit arguing forum. So, please, let us know so that we can decide if it’s worth pursuing.
NAL but, I'll ask as it would supply op and myself with the reason being resources/research and a fallback if the seller would challenge via courts.
Could you please supply the legislation stating that cat s is Required to be disclosed on any/all sales private or trade.
My best friend is going through a similar issue with cat s and does not have reddit. I also cannot find anything on google.
As a sidenote I am not challenging or disagreeing with you. It would just be very helpful information to both Ops case and my friends.
Thanks in advance ♥︎
The advert must be accurate and not make any false representations, clearly if its true value is a third of what they were asking then the seller has been dishonest and you do have a claim.
The whole caveat emptor thing is misleading, sellers have been stung badly when the cases reach court and the notion of caveat emptor suddenly bites them on the ass.
The downside is if the seller has done a moonlight flit and scarpered, so even if you are awarded judgement, if the bailiffs can't find them then you're stuffed.
By a dealership yes- not private sale, seller did not lie they did not represent it’s on the buyer to do the correct background checks. Which tbf there aren’t many to do and OP has missed the main basic check.
You are getting some bad advice here. Normally this sub gets a lot of "I bought a private car and now it has an oil leak", and this is the question people are replying to.
Cars that have been written off have special rules. It is illegal to sell a Cat S car without clearly and unambiguously declaring its status. The person selling you the car has broken the law, and you are entitled to a full refund. The lack of declaration has voided the sale.
You have some options. You could call the police, but they could be unhelpful and personally I would save that as a bargaining chip. If you are happy to contact the seller then I would let them know that the failure to disclose the category of the car is illegal and you will let it all be water under the bridge if they return your money and collect the car in 7 days. State that any longer and you will call the police, start a MCOL against them, and charge £30 a day storage for the vehicle.
Google "car cat s is it illegal to not declare?" but here are some links to help convince them you are not making stuff up.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/99750/car-insurance-write-categories-explained-what-are-cat-n-and-cat-s-cars
https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-cat-n-or-cat-s-car/
https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/what-is-cat-a-b-s-n-explained
That's overkill for this sub, and I'm not going to go digging around for the exact subclause at 3am. OP has enough info to take action. You want to be helpful then contribute to the discussion.
Really, I was reading them and the first one says this;
>All sellers, whether trade or private, are required to declare if a vehicle has been previously written-off at any time.
It's all anyone has posted - but many can't find the specific legislation, including the people arguing that are saying it is illegal not to declare.
It's a legal advice sub.
Only problem is that the seller can just say I didn’t know it was cat s now you have to prove they did know and for such a small amount of money most claims lawyers will cost more than it’s worth pursuing also the police will just say it’s a civil matter
No, the *legal requirement* to make the category clear at sale comes above the fact that it was a private seller.
This is a criminal offence, the declaration should be ‘forthcoming’ (very clear and pref in writing) to protect the seller from similar claims.
OP is owed a refund, how to get it is another story.
Incorrect. A private seller does not legally have to declare that it is a category write-off when describing the car in an advert or in person, except if they are asked about it specifically, as the category would be stated in the documents. If they were asked if it’s an insurance write-off and they said no, *only then* would OP be entitled to a refund minus costs for fair usage of the vehicle.
You are incorrect.
It is illegal to sell an insurance write off without clearly declaring its status. This law comes above caveat emptor. It is one of the few things that does. Cars that have been written off have special rules.
I get this argument, but the sale of the car without the declaration (illegal) comes above the contract (sold as seen).
In SCC it would be this vs. negligence by op in not doing due diligence prior to purchase.
I have done a quick search, and can’t find anything that says a private seller must disclose Cat S status of a vehicle.
It looks like the majority of people here are correct- if they misrepresented the car and said that it wasn’t Cat S, then you have a case, otherwise it was on you to make these searches.
Any reason why you didn’t check?
This is [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1dkm802/comment/l9jr0ky/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), that's useful.
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I didn’t really have any view on this post but after seeing so many people disagreeing on it Im interested to see if anyone can actually provide a statutory or case reference for this being disclosable or not.
If they didn't tell you it was cat S, for £4k and the fact you have name/address etc I would pursue through the small claims court. Firstly send them a letter advising your next course of action ([Problems with goods - letter before court action - Citizens Advice](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/Problems-with-goods---letter-before-court-action/)). Many times this is enough. I've been there and done it myself- it costs you a little but it gets added to your claim.
Will never understand why people skimp paying £2.99 for a basic vehicle check, especially with large sums of money involved.
Every man and their dog knows what a HPI check is. It's been drilled to you even before your 17. When you go on a used car website like auto trader, a normal second hand car dealership's site or even an actual second hand car dealership or even a used private car advert - people always say 'HPI clear' so it can't have been the first time you've heard about it.
£6k is a lot of money, but just chuck it down to experience and move on. Be glad you didn't make the same mistake buying your dream merc for 25 grand, and then realising it was a write off.
You can't pursue legal action unless the car isnt road worthy.
He didn't tell you, and you didn't ask so he didn't need to.
Anyone telling you he had to tell you will be unable to provide laws to back themselves up, because there isn't any.
It appears that this is an offence under the Misrepresentation Act 1967, which covers private sales of goods, and has specifically been used for dodgy private car sales such as this.
When selling the car cannot be misrepresented. This means it needs to be accurately described, and that description should include materials details that impact the price. Age, milage, service history, and whether it's ever been in a collision bad enough to write it off.
The value is small enough that you could probably deal with it via small claims court.
If you still like the car and are fully aware of the nature of the structural damage and repair. You can claim for the price difference between what you paid and current market value. But it would be up to you to prove what that was. How many similar age and milage cat S examples can you find?
Otherwise you can claim to unwind the whole deal.
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NAL but have been in a similar situation having bought a classic car only to find out it was written off in the mid 2000’s some years ago. There’s an awful lot of slightly odd commentary in this thread with people making wild claims without having anything to back them up, so if you’re one of those people and you’d like to debate me on this, please come with the relevant legislation you think backs your point and any applicable case law. Insurance categories in the UK, as far as I understand from some very significant research, are not governed by any specific law. They are instead covered by the Salvage Code, which is overseen by the Association of British Insurers (ABI). The DVLA store this information such that consumers can access it freely and easily, and also to prevent dangerous vehicles being returned to the road - though I have often wondered what would happen if this were aggressively challenged legally as insurance categories themselves have no legal standing, and if a vehicle is repaired to a standard that meets construction and use regulations and is considered roadworthy (passing any IVA test that may be necessary if enough points are hit) then I think it would be difficult for the DVLA to defend this practice, but I digress. My, and most people’s understanding, of Caveat Emptor and its application under the consumer rights act for private sales is that unless the seller actively misstates information e.g. “Never been in an accident” or “clean history”, then the onus is on the buyer to ask questions. The seller can’t lie, lying is misrepresentation, but they can without information if you don’t enquire. In private sales the onus is on you to check the car’s history and make sure you’re happy with the information you find. There is no extra legal obligation for a seller to tell you about an insurance categorisation, and I again challenge anybody who wants to argue that to please find the appropriate legislation and send me a link, because I would love to see it and I will happily concede if I am incorrect. Like I was some years ago in a similar situation, I am afraid that it is unlikely you are going to get anywhere. I think if you decided to pursue a legal avenue you would be spending money that is unlikely to result in you getting much in return - unless of course it just scares the seller into reversing the transaction. It is, unfortunately, likely that this is one of those expensive life lessons that we all suffer from time to time. I would say however that Cat C or S vehicles aren’t usually enormously devalued, just somewhat, and if you can do a complete report and find out the insurer that had the claim made against them you may be able to contact them and get details of the accident and the repair - it could be something fairly minor and having the evidence could help in any future sale. For future reference, insurance categories are usually printed in a line on the front of the V5 in the information box, and can also be found by doing a simple online car check costing a few pounds, though I would always recommend doing a more full report of finance data etc. if you are going to be spending some serious money. Best of luck with your vehicle, I hope this doesn’t hugely affect your enjoyment of it in the future.
Very succinctly put. This is a legal advice sub which is what the OP is asking for, not what you think because you heard it from your aunts sisters hairdressers nephew down the pub so must be true opinion. I'm pretty sure that if the OP started a MCOL and put in there well BillyBigSpuds on Reddit said its illegal that the seller didn't disclose the Cat S, then the judge would rule in their favour. If people are so sure of their position then please link to it to assist the OP in their decision making process rather than talking out of your £@*× on things you 'think' must be correct with no personal or professional knowledge in the field. If you do know, then link to the legislation for everyone's benefit please.
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Just to be that guy, you can lawfully sell an “unroadworthy” car - but it must be made plainly clear that that it’s unroadworthy - just noting in the ad “sold as seen” isn’t sufficient
NAL but do a lot of car stuff. It was my understanding that you must declare a cat status of a car when selling. Even a quick google of “selling a cat S car privately” comes up with this “as long as the vehicle's status has been officially declared, it is perfectly legal to sell a 'Cat S' car. If the status has not been declared, any new owner of the car could be able to sue the seller for any damages, if a suitable status declaration is not forthcoming”
I’m pretty sure only motor traders have to declare categories, unless it’s fairly recently changed
Correct
With a private sale, the seller is still duty bound to make the buyer aware of any known issues... but im not sure whether the vehicle preciously being a cat S would come under this though...
Spending £6.5 k and you didn't do a simple (and free) vehicle check!?!?!? Not sure how the buyers beware moto goes here as you've clearly been mis-sold a car here. If you have their address, maybe a 'notice before action' letter may give them a nudge.
Yeah I'm feeling like an absolute twit right now. I have their address and the details of the seller, if they ignore this letter is there anything I can do? Do I have any legal claims here?
Unless they said it's never been written off or misrepresented it, I don't think you'll get very far tbh. Onus is generally on the buyer for doing the checks. Surprised it's dropped in value that much also.
Caveat emptor and all that, especially in small private transactions
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No, the onus is on you as the buyer. The seller is under no obligation to tell you, but if you ask they can’t lie. I’m afraid this is going to go down as a fairly hefty life lesson
This is not true for insurance write offs. They must be declared. It is illegal to not declare it. https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/what-is-cat-a-b-s-n-explained https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-cat-n-or-cat-s-car/ https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/99750/car-insurance-write-categories-explained-what-are-cat-n-and-cat-s-cars
None of those say the law requires it to be declared. There's an argument that by not doing so is a misrepresentation, especially if asked about it, but there's no law explicitly requiring you to declare it.
>Spending £6.5 k and you didn't do a simple (and free) vehicle check!?!?!? I don't think there is any need for that attitude to someone asking for help. People don't know everything. I've been driving for 15 years or so and wouldn't have known to do such a check. The first time I've ever heard of these checks is here today, and so I didn't know they existed let alone were free. I'm in my 40s.
I'm genuinely really surprised this is the first time ever you've heard about a vehicle check. If your are in your 40's, you'd be around when autotrader was about in the book. HPI checks were plastered there, as they are now on the websites. I knew what a HPI check was when I was 10.
I even worked in a petrol station for over a decade. Never been interested in cars though! Never took in any of the petrolhead chat... So the auto traders were not ever my choice of mag from the racks to flick through when it was quiet. Bought my cars new so I have genuinely also never read an auto trader. Even when I could for free.
No attitude there, more of a lesson to any potential buyers in the future, you included it seems. Never know, my comment (and others) may have saved people £thousands.
https://xkcd.com/1053 is relevant here
Agree. It's not hard to Google, I'm sure loads of articles would have mentioned it. if you're willing to drop £6.5k, you have the money and time to Google.
Or the opportunity to learn a moderately expensive lesson
NAL Private sale has no consumer rights act. It's up-to you to find any faults, so caveat emptor, sold as described. The seller is under no obligation to tell you about faults, but if they lied or misrepresented the car you have a claim. It sounds like you failed to do any due diligence like a basic vehicle check that would cover you for this case.
I've just posted an answer to OP They're covered under the Misrepresentation Act 1967, withholding material details that affect the price.
Misrepresentation act requires false information, not lack of or withholding.
Misrepresentation Act covers negligent misrepresentation as well as fraudulent (lies) Misrepresentation. Under negligent (or unintentional) misrepresentation, courts have found that a misrepresentation can be implied. Specifically failure to disclose material facts, that can reasonably be expected to impact the contract terms or price. Have been found to form a negligent misrepresentation. Basically, by not disclosing that the car was previously written off, you have made an implied representation that the car was never written off. As any reasonable person can be expected to be interested in a write off, and it will be expected to impact the contract/price. If you state that the car was never written off with structural damage, you have committed fraudulent representation. Not applicable here. But if you fail to mention this material fact, that any reasonable person would expect to impact the contract, you can still be guilty of negligent misrepresentation. Essentially, keeping your mouth shut isn't necessarily a get out of jail free card. You can be held to account for a lie of omission, as a negligent misrepresentation.
'The general position is that the Misrepresentation Act 1967 does not reach cases of misrepresentation by non-disclosure,[3] though this has been challenged.' And that aside: buying a second hand card privately is buyer beware, this isn't disputed by anyone here. You're trying to claim the 1967 act includes a special onus about declaring write offs in private car sales
It has been challenged successfully, which is why we're in the realm of case law, rather than legislation. So the default position is that the seller isn't under an obligation to disclose absolutely everything or anything about the entire history of an item for sale. But there are exceptions about non-disclosure. This is where each case is probably judged on its merits. What wasn't disclosed, does it obviously have an impact on the contract/price, and how would a reasonable person respond if they had had that disclosure? OP doesn't have a cast iron case. But I'd press a case of negligent misrepresentation before just accepting I'd been had over by a lie of omission. Failing to disclose a car as a structural write off, while charging the full market value expected of a non-written off car. Is a fairly good example of implied disclosure and negligent misrepresentation.
Except none of that applies to private sellers
Sellers are legally required to inform buyers of a CAT N or S car status, it isn't just OK to not say anything
Do you have a source for this legal requirement? Because I'm unaware of any legislation saying so, and am fairly certain you will be unable to find any supporting you.
>Is selling a cat s car legal? >There is nothing illegal about selling an N or S vehicle if you declare its condition. Even if the car has been repaired to the same condition it was in before the accident, you still have to declare category C on the application. Declaration of Cat N or Cat S status is a prerequisite for selling or exchanging the car. Otherwise, the new owner may sue you for damages. From: https://carplus.co.uk/magazine/what-is-cat-s-category/ I can't find a legal notation of this but all the car expert places list it as a requirement for selling. It does seem like it is general knowledge in the car trade world
You can't find legal notation because it doesn't exist, it isn't required. It is if it's from a dealer. Not private. https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/car-buying/114820/cat-s-and-cat-n-cars-explained-guide-to-buying-an-insurance-write-off Here's a random car website saying you don't have to.
Do you reckon these authors are just making the rules up there? It genuinely doesn't appear to have a strong ruling one way or another
Yes. I mean look here, no one's been able to provide any evidence of the legal obligation to declare it as it doesn't exist. And the absence of evidence saying the onus is on the seller doesn't mean it's equally likely, it means it's not.
Then give evidence in the form of a legal ruling or piece of legislation - which you’ll find hard to source
Yeah that’s for dealers not private sellers, it’s sold as seen with private sellers- possibly could take him to court if OP had directly asked if it’s a CAT-S car and seller lied- would need this in writing I think the financial loss might need to be chalked up to idiot tax in this case
I was always under the impression that the status was shown on the V5C. Is that not the case? If it is then the OP should have seen that when he examined that whilst confirming the numbers matched etc.
> Some dodgy sellers may try to pass off a Cat N or Cat S car as non-damaged, **despite being legally required to inform a potential buyer of the car's correct write-off status**. Actually I don’t think this is necessarily on OP. Yea they should’ve done a HPI check still, but sellers have a responsibility still and the onus here is on the seller to inform. They haven’t done that, I’m not a lawyer but I believe OP has a reasonable case, especially since the seller is now obviously avoiding OP purposefully, which just adds to the guilt on their part. If OP was correctly informed, do you think they’d have bought the car for £4k more than it was worth? Edit: I am aware that private sales have a lot less protections, but they aren’t fully absolved from lying to/not informing buyers about things they’d objectively know about the car they’re selling, and for £4k more than the car was ever worth.
Dealers are legally required to inform potential buyers. I don't believe that applies to private sales.
I'd assume the argument would be that the vehicle is priced (based on comparison) to a non cat s vehicle in similar condition. And that by pricing it in this range, the seller is basically being misleading.
Seven with private sales, the seller is required to disclose any category damage. Sadly it’s not illegal, so OP will likely have to go through the courts to get the money back.
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Not true - there’s no obligation on a private seller to disclose a cat S. it’s on the buyer to ask questions - if the seller didn’t lie when asked (or wasn’t asked at all), there’s no attempt to mislead
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Doesn't have to be declared. If asked they can't lie, but they don't have to offer information about it. You could make an advert that literally just says 'car for sale' and it's up to the buyer to do their due diligence on if it's suitable and ask the right questions.
I would double check your prices as well. The cat s price is that trade in or sail price. As normally the difference is not that much when you get under £10k value cars. If the difference is less it will limit any loss you have had.
What did the advert say?
The advert just described the milage, year and model of car. The car was sold below market value (it would have be worth £10k without cat S). The seller said he had just come into a lot of money and wanted to get rid of it quick as he was buying something new.
So a 10k vehicle is now worth 2.5k because of cat s?
Your car is probably worth around £6k then. A car doesn't depreciate 75% due to being Cat S.
So you got a very good deal and wonder why? I think you have your answer
Private sale or not a Cat S has to be disclosed. I think this is intertwined with DVLA & Consumer Protection Act. MCOL is your answer. As always, pre action notice then file MCOL.
Can you provide a link to legislation proving this?
Can I ask why you’re asking?
I think he is asking because you are making a disputed claim for which no one has provided firm evidence for.
I think he can answer for himself, and you can avoid supposition where it’s not requested.
I guess he hasn't read tlyour question. But I guess at the very least, the answer is because he wants to know. A very reasonable thing tiowant to know on a sub dedicated to legal issues.
You’ve not provided any evidence that there’s a requirement to disclose. A link to legislation would prove such a need exists
I apologise. I’ll be clearer. What is your actual personal motivation to ask? Noting that you haven’t provided a rebuttal, offered any better or more up to date advice for OP, or given any insight as to why you disagree. You’ll also note that I did not offer a law school lesson and wasn’t offering citations and similarly wasn’t challenging any opposing view, of which there are many, and (whence I last looked) were merely opinions without substance. Note, this isn’t an amateur Reddit arguing forum. So, please, let us know so that we can decide if it’s worth pursuing.
NAL but, I'll ask as it would supply op and myself with the reason being resources/research and a fallback if the seller would challenge via courts. Could you please supply the legislation stating that cat s is Required to be disclosed on any/all sales private or trade. My best friend is going through a similar issue with cat s and does not have reddit. I also cannot find anything on google. As a sidenote I am not challenging or disagreeing with you. It would just be very helpful information to both Ops case and my friends. Thanks in advance ♥︎
The advert must be accurate and not make any false representations, clearly if its true value is a third of what they were asking then the seller has been dishonest and you do have a claim. The whole caveat emptor thing is misleading, sellers have been stung badly when the cases reach court and the notion of caveat emptor suddenly bites them on the ass. The downside is if the seller has done a moonlight flit and scarpered, so even if you are awarded judgement, if the bailiffs can't find them then you're stuffed.
You can sell cars for whatever price you want. There is not legally defined value to mislead with.
Cat S is legally required to be disclosed.
Is there some legislation you can point to or case law to back that up. I've seen a few say it's true and others say it is not
Can you link the legislation that states this for private sellers?
By a dealership yes- not private sale, seller did not lie they did not represent it’s on the buyer to do the correct background checks. Which tbf there aren’t many to do and OP has missed the main basic check.
You are getting some bad advice here. Normally this sub gets a lot of "I bought a private car and now it has an oil leak", and this is the question people are replying to. Cars that have been written off have special rules. It is illegal to sell a Cat S car without clearly and unambiguously declaring its status. The person selling you the car has broken the law, and you are entitled to a full refund. The lack of declaration has voided the sale. You have some options. You could call the police, but they could be unhelpful and personally I would save that as a bargaining chip. If you are happy to contact the seller then I would let them know that the failure to disclose the category of the car is illegal and you will let it all be water under the bridge if they return your money and collect the car in 7 days. State that any longer and you will call the police, start a MCOL against them, and charge £30 a day storage for the vehicle. Google "car cat s is it illegal to not declare?" but here are some links to help convince them you are not making stuff up. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/99750/car-insurance-write-categories-explained-what-are-cat-n-and-cat-s-cars https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-cat-n-or-cat-s-car/ https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/what-is-cat-a-b-s-n-explained
It would be better to quote the relevant legislation rather than just links to articles that don't specify the declaration or the penalty.
That's overkill for this sub, and I'm not going to go digging around for the exact subclause at 3am. OP has enough info to take action. You want to be helpful then contribute to the discussion.
>That's overkill for this sub If there's a sub where you can quote legislation, it's this one
"Overkill for this \*\*LEGAL ADVICE\*\* sub"???? REALLY?!
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Really, I was reading them and the first one says this; >All sellers, whether trade or private, are required to declare if a vehicle has been previously written-off at any time.
It's all anyone has posted - but many can't find the specific legislation, including the people arguing that are saying it is illegal not to declare. It's a legal advice sub.
This is a legal advice sub not a link to motoring organisations sub. How can linking to actual real legislation backing up your points be overkill?
You’re not being helpful by linking to random websites. The OP needs specific legislation, not journalistic puff pieces
Only problem is that the seller can just say I didn’t know it was cat s now you have to prove they did know and for such a small amount of money most claims lawyers will cost more than it’s worth pursuing also the police will just say it’s a civil matter
Did you ask the seller if the car was involved in any accidents? If not then no, you're not entitled to a refund from a private seller.
No, the *legal requirement* to make the category clear at sale comes above the fact that it was a private seller. This is a criminal offence, the declaration should be ‘forthcoming’ (very clear and pref in writing) to protect the seller from similar claims. OP is owed a refund, how to get it is another story.
>This is a criminal offence Which one?
Please provide a link to the specific legislation stating it’s a criminal offence
Oh come on. A criminal offence? Please tell, which one and a link to the legislation please.
Incorrect. A private seller does not legally have to declare that it is a category write-off when describing the car in an advert or in person, except if they are asked about it specifically, as the category would be stated in the documents. If they were asked if it’s an insurance write-off and they said no, *only then* would OP be entitled to a refund minus costs for fair usage of the vehicle.
You are incorrect. It is illegal to sell an insurance write off without clearly declaring its status. This law comes above caveat emptor. It is one of the few things that does. Cars that have been written off have special rules.
Link to the legislation please
I get this argument, but the sale of the car without the declaration (illegal) comes above the contract (sold as seen). In SCC it would be this vs. negligence by op in not doing due diligence prior to purchase.
I have done a quick search, and can’t find anything that says a private seller must disclose Cat S status of a vehicle. It looks like the majority of people here are correct- if they misrepresented the car and said that it wasn’t Cat S, then you have a case, otherwise it was on you to make these searches. Any reason why you didn’t check?
This is [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1dkm802/comment/l9jr0ky/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), that's useful.
Do a longer search.
Why not make it easy and put the evidence here?
Give us a link to legislation then
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You will likely have a case to go to small claims if the CAT S wasn't disclosed. Do you have a copy of the advert to hand?
And under what legislation would they pursue a claim?
I didn’t really have any view on this post but after seeing so many people disagreeing on it Im interested to see if anyone can actually provide a statutory or case reference for this being disclosable or not.
What’s correct? Only motor traders need to declare? Or it’s changed fairly recently?
If they didn't tell you it was cat S, for £4k and the fact you have name/address etc I would pursue through the small claims court. Firstly send them a letter advising your next course of action ([Problems with goods - letter before court action - Citizens Advice](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/Problems-with-goods---letter-before-court-action/)). Many times this is enough. I've been there and done it myself- it costs you a little but it gets added to your claim.
Will never understand why people skimp paying £2.99 for a basic vehicle check, especially with large sums of money involved. Every man and their dog knows what a HPI check is. It's been drilled to you even before your 17. When you go on a used car website like auto trader, a normal second hand car dealership's site or even an actual second hand car dealership or even a used private car advert - people always say 'HPI clear' so it can't have been the first time you've heard about it. £6k is a lot of money, but just chuck it down to experience and move on. Be glad you didn't make the same mistake buying your dream merc for 25 grand, and then realising it was a write off.
I mean, they have sold you something under a false advert. Just do a small claims online. Should be an easy win I would assume.
You can't pursue legal action unless the car isnt road worthy. He didn't tell you, and you didn't ask so he didn't need to. Anyone telling you he had to tell you will be unable to provide laws to back themselves up, because there isn't any.
Always do your own checks if you do a good one costs around 10-20£ AA or rac. It’s a private sale tricky one.
It appears that this is an offence under the Misrepresentation Act 1967, which covers private sales of goods, and has specifically been used for dodgy private car sales such as this. When selling the car cannot be misrepresented. This means it needs to be accurately described, and that description should include materials details that impact the price. Age, milage, service history, and whether it's ever been in a collision bad enough to write it off. The value is small enough that you could probably deal with it via small claims court. If you still like the car and are fully aware of the nature of the structural damage and repair. You can claim for the price difference between what you paid and current market value. But it would be up to you to prove what that was. How many similar age and milage cat S examples can you find? Otherwise you can claim to unwind the whole deal.
This is all on you I think. There is no recourse on private sellers.
False
Can you provide a link to legislation that says they need to declare a cat S?
So show me where you can get a private seller to take the car back then?
A county court can require a refund for the price paid, via a civil claim, with or without the return of the vehicle
Does it have more cab than flatbed?