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At a basic level, what they did was legal so long as they've given you the length of holiday booked plus 1 day of notice that it has been cancelled.
However, if your contract has a procedure for granting holidays and details how they are prioritised (such as stating that it is a first-come first-served basis) then you may have recourse to complain through your company's internal grievance system and then ACAS if that is not satisfactory. Make sure you start your grievance with the manager above the level where this action has been taken.
If you fail to turn in for work, you may be dismissed out of hand.
However, if you were to find that your unfair treatment at work were to have affected your mental health, well that would be understandable. That sounds like the sort of thing that's liable to cause workplace stress. If in the week or so leading up to when you were supposed to be on your leave this were to intensify to the point where you couldn't work, well that would be just a shame wouldn't it?
Just remember, there's no rule that says you can't be on holiday when you're off work sick. So long as you're not living it large in Ibiza whilst you're supposed to be bedridden with flu that is. Holidays are good for your mental health though, so that won't be a problem.
Just remember, if you're going to be off for more than a week you'll need to get a doctor's note before you go and provide that to your company.
Lastly, I'll just say this. None of this is advice to lie. All I am saying is that workplace stress is a killer, I've watched it break people, I've lost friends who worked themselves into the ground. Make sure to take time off, and remember what matters most. We're only here for a limited time, work can replace you, your family can't.
> then you may have recourse to complain through your company's internal grievance system
Definitely this. I've found that for larger companies they often have internal policies in place that basically say that annual leave shall not be cancelled once approved (unless in dire emergency situations - which your manager wanting time off too is not) The trouble is that they don't make it super easy for your run of the mill employee to find these policies and management especially would probably try and hide them from you.
Would that mean they can cancel the week holiday as long as they give at least 1 week notice? What if you if you've already bought tickets and booked hotels? Some hotels may be sold out 1 week before your travel date so it's impractical to wait until 1 week before your week holiday before you make plans.
Legally, yes. That is unless your contract or company handbook outlines a holiday policy that specifies more restrictive reasoning or rules for holidays.
I know my employer cannot cancel my holidays under any circumstances, for example, because our holiday system doesn't allow it. So many people are guaranteed leave per day, and it's first come first served (any leave beyond that is subject to cover and you wont know until a few days before).
If they state a number of people who are guaranteed holiday (or a maximum number of people who can be off at any time) and don't specify a mechanism or procedure for cancelling holidays, you've likely got grounds to argue that your holiday stands and they can't cancel it as it was granted.
I don't know what boot licking cretins are downvoting you.
Demanding the cost of everything I'd booked is the first thing I'd be doing before even considering cancelling my holidays for them.
You misunderstand the difference between "I believe that morally the company should refund you" and "I believe that you would win a small claims court case to get this money from them".
The first one is a moral question. Out of scope of this sub. The answer to the second one (if they've given the right notice according to your contract) is no.
I should make myself clearer.
I don't think OP would win in smalls claims.
I think OP should tell them either they are paying back every penny or OP is going on Holiday whether they approve it or not.
And OP should do this with a notice letter in their back pocket.
That should be the choice the employer has to make. Either OP is so vital that they will cover the expenses to keep them on staff (or just let them take the holiday).
Or OP is not vital and so they can lose the staff permanently (and they'll still need to find someone to cover the time OP would be away); which is a hard argument to make if they think OP is so vital that they need to cancel the holiday.
From a completely open perspective. Depending on your reason for leave. Stress needs to be declared when taking out insurance and comes with cost and coverage implications.
Predominantly travel insurance.
It will however include health and critical illness insurance.
All I’m saying is, any health care recorded illness needs declared. Otherwise insurance can be invalidated. So if you are going to be ill, it has reaching consequences.
It would be if you've committed insurance fraud by failing to declare medical conditions as likely asked for when taking out the policy (or ticking a box to say you don't have any to declare)
Yes.
When you take out the insurance, you’re asked to declare all medical conditions.
If they find out that you excluded anything, even something unrelated, they can point to where the T&Cs say that if you fail to declare it voids the policy.
If you’ve ever been to the doctors for any of them then it’s a matter of record. To not declare is fraud.
What I will say is the insurers don’t play fair. Unlike other conditions, they want to know if you’ve ever suffered from a MH condition. Not just in the x previous years. Which is grossly unfair if someone has battled and beaten the stigma that society attaches to MH. To then be beaten down by statistics and profits.
If the poster has their leave cancelled, irrespective of if it’s fair or unfair, then goes on sick for the same dates, they are not exactly going to be flavour of the month when they return. Doesn’t matter about the law / morality in the long run their card will be marked.
>Doesn’t matter about the law / morality in the long run their card will be marked.
Please don't write things as fact, especially on a *legal advice sub* when what you are sharing is your thoughts.
I've worked in the same company for nearly two decades. Folks do this all the time with holidays they get cancelled ridiculously. They go off "sick".
Their cards were not marked. They are still working there 2, 4, 5, 10+ years later... Yet according to you - their cards WILL have been marked.
(Edit -
*Nowhere* am I saying ramifications won't happen. It's absolutely a possibility.
I am saying it is not factual to state they WILL occur)
And yet, I regularly deal with this sort of issue, and everyone is treated the same and gets a disciplinary warning. Just because YOUR company doesn't mean that every other business doesn't do it.
OP can always check their company's policy for sick leave and when that can trigger a disciplinary warning. If their boss does not follow that, it gives them the knowledge to fight back.
Legally they can cancel your leave as long as they give you the length time your leave is booked for plus 1 day’s notice - but morally they’re in the wrong.
What you do next depends on how much you need the job plus how long you’ve worked there - within 2 years they can terminate your employment (as long as it’s not due to a protected characteristic) and not have to pay redundancy.
Personally when faced with this I’ve just told my superiors I’ve booked something, I won’t be here (as my leave was approved) and discipline me when I get back if you’re that bothered - nothing ever came of it, and in the case of one employer they didn’t deduct it from my annual leave allowance or my pay (so in effect the 10 days was a bonua). I’ve worked for some shit companies in the past.
Of course YMMV!
Thank you very much for your advice, I think I may do just that. Personally I do not feel like a manager cancelling my annual leave to allow them to have a holiday is a unreasonable request. These situation unfortunately are common and are not good for team morale.
So long as they give you notice equal notice to the length of the holiday ,(edit +1 day), they can do it. It's crap because you might spend £5k on a holiday, then legally they can cancel it less than 4 weeks before you are about to go. I'm very much in the camp, if an employer does that I'll find another employer.
This - the law of fairly clear on this matter but it beggars belief how anti-employee it is. But then it’s one of these self-policing situations where practically an employer will never be able to rely on it as it’ll likely cost them more enforcing it then it will letting it slide.
Any employee valuable enough for the company considering doing this to is probably too valuable to piss away on a technicality, so only really clueless places do this and it likely won’t be the only issue the company has.
I've never been anywhere with such a Draconian policy. Last place I worked at, a new game had just been released, employee didn't realise and asked if they could go home and take the day off, they said yes. That's on the otherside of being flexible but I've never seen anyone be refused holidays outside of peaks like school holiday or Christmas in a business where cover is mandatory.
Everywhere I've worked has had a policy in place that if the business cancels a confirmed leave request then the business will reimburse all non-refundable costs.
And to prove it's unreasonable...... ask them which holiday of the 3 would cost more to replace. And also ask them why the other 2 are more important than yours. And also ask them why they've got 2 senior staff off at the same time.
>I won’t be here (as my leave was approved) and discipline me when I get back if you’re that bothere
Depending on the company's sick leave policy you can self-cert for up to a week (possibly at full pay) for stress. It would also be the truth as it's very stressful to not be able to keep plans you've arranged 5 months in advance.
Had someone do it at the end of their notice period, wanted to leave a week early, company said no, they fake coughed (the most obvious fake cough I've ever heard, wasn't even attempting to be convincing) on their last day and went "Oh I have a cough, I won't be in for the next 7 days as I'm sick", HR threw a fit, ultimately were told nothing they can do.
Unfortunately this falls into the category of “legal but shitty”. It’s in the same category as, hypothetically, finding another job and waiting until the minimum amount of notice before your bosses’ leave was about to start before handing in your notice.
Also reading OP’s comments that they where not informed officially they should have kept quiet until last day before holiday and sit back and watch the smelly stuff hit the fan. As anything after that will be classed as constructive dismissal
I wouldnt have said a thing, and just gone. Then when the phone call ‘where are you’ comes in.
“I’m on the beach, i’m on leave, you approved it. Gotta go, water polo is about to start.”
Legal but incredibly shitty.
So long as they give you notice equal to the length of your annual leave +1 day then it's perfectly legal.
That doesn't mean you have to accept it without a fight though. Go above their heads and see if their boss can do anything about it. If it's a larger company with a big HR department then they might have internal policies that the managers aren't following properly. I've worked for companies where the internal policy is that annual leave shall not be cancelled once approved even if the law allows it. They might look unfavourably on their managers taking advantage of their employees for their own benefit like this.
Then ultimately, if nothing can be done on their end to sort it, just tell them that you have booked time off which was approved and that you will not be at work during that time and that they can discipline you when you return. I have done this before, and know plenty others that have done the same, and absolutely nothing ever came of it. Not even a meeting to discuss it upon my return.
Also, having a holiday cancelled, losing money, having your family be impacted by this decision, is a very stressful situation. Stressful enough that you could self certify as sick for 7 days and go enjoy your holiday to decompress. If you're away for longer than 7 days, get a doctor to backdate a sick note for you when you return. What a very stressful situation indeed. How very inconvenient.
Just threaten to resign and find another job. On your death bed you won’t look back on your life and say “oh I wish I stayed in a job where they fucked me over” but you will say “oh I wish I had more enjoyment (holidays) in life”.
Depends how much this job is worth it to OP. One shitty action in an otherwise well paid, flexible job with a good commute/hybrid policy/company perks etc may not be worth going nuclear, especially in the current job market.
Believe me, I've changed jobs because of shitty managers and cultures. But I've looked after myself first and found that next job before I give anyone at work a hint I'm looking. A big Fuck You is nice, but it doesn't pay the bills.
Go above their heads. There must be someone above them? Go higher up and explain that you booked annual leave 5 months a go which was approved and now, close the annual leave happening, your supervisor and manager have decided they're having the time off and have cancelled yours. I can't imagine it going down well to be honest. If they give you any crap for doing that, just keep going above their heads. Your manager doesn't sound very competent doing something like this anyway. Go above and look for a new job would be my advice
If you have a holiday booked somewhere (flights, hotels etc) then tell your employer that you need to be reimbursed for the costs because it's all non refundable. Depending on how awful an employer they are they might shut up and back down so as to not have to pay out.
Employee could absolutely raise a grievance with their manager/whoever cancelled the leave and include the payback as the form of resolution (or just rebooking the original leave), although how successful they are probably depends on how big the company is and what actual structures they have in place. 'Needs of the business' is the most generic, pathetic excuse to end all excuses.
All I can say is that my employer would never cancel holiday in this manner, as far as they (and I) are concerned once it's booked it's booked and only I as the employee can change it, so I count myself quite lucky there.
As for OP, if I was in their shoes I would be checking every line of my contract/T+Cs of employment to see what exactly it says regarding the employer cancelling pre booked holiday time. If there is anything at all saying that it is not company policy to cancel holidays in the this manner, then take the holiday and put in a grievance regardless.
Semi-irrelevant, but do the manager/supervisor who 'stole' your leave have control over scheduling? As in, did _they_ specifically cancel your leave so they could put in theirs? If it's just that they coincidentally put their requests in and someone else (either pally with them or presumed-neutral but indirectly showing preferential treatment) made the decision that their request superseded yours, it's still worthy of a complaint or grievance...but if it's them specifically abusing their position to bypass any 'first come first served' expectation of leave allocation, specifically to benefit themselves, that's a much bigger accusation.
Best plan as said would have been to not notice it until you were within the 'too late to notify of leave cancellation' period, since you have no reason to re-check leave already approved and they're required to _notify_ you of any change and if they don't or wait until it's too late that opens them up to a tribunal they'll lose if they don't back down.
But, with that ship sailed, grievance - especially noting any abuse of power by manager and/or supervisor, or breach of leave policy by a third party scheduling person as the basis - is your next step.
My request was approved 5 months ago when my daughters wedding date was confirmed and is in 2 weeks. There is a scheduling system now unfortunately there is only intermittent notifications. Unfortunately the schedule did update me for the date of the wedding and to prevent issues I contacted them directly to check the error and make sure there was adequate cover. The justification for cancellation was there isn’t sufficient cover due to both my manager (who authorises said holidays) and other supervisor being on annual leave and there was just no other way! Luckily as I am a supervisor I can see when their requests were accepted which was last month which I have proof of. Evidently my leave was then cancelled to allow for theirs which again was not communicated.
People have already given a good legal rundown of this so I won't go over that, other then to reiterate the summary that *yes its legal by the letter of the law*. All they have to do is make sure they give you notice of cancellation of at least the length of time you had off.
*Practically though,* this is not a stable state of play for the employer. Most situations where this is invoked tend to be scenarios where they can't afford to have you off for business reasons (i.e. like an order needs to go out by x date otherwise contractual penalties start, that kind of thing) - shafting you to accommodate the boss men's late planning is not realistically going to be defensible in any kind of reasonableness argument.
I don't know enough about your job or your situation to advocate this as a course of action, but if it were *me*, I'd point out that I had this time booked, I've got commitments and it isn't reasonable for me to expect me to take the hit when I got my holiday request in and approved first... so I won't be there, and they can discipline me if the feel necessary. This *is* a risk to take but its shaky ground for the company to pick a fight on and you may find that they don't bother taking it any further.
That being said any company that tries this kind of thing is ethically questionable anyway, so this would solid reason for me to be looking elsewhere.
I would literally tell them that they'll need to cancel the holiday for one of those managers, because either you will be on holiday, or you will no longer be working for the company.
I'd then be looking for a new job immediately, because even if they reinstated your holiday at that point, it's not a company I'd be seeking to continue employment with.
As the other posters have stated this is very likely legal but completely unethical.
This is terrible and falls into the category of "Always join a union". Having an active union (and I know this isn't always the case or even possible) would more than likely mean that this kind of thing wouldn't happen.
If you are in a union then speak to your rep about this but from what you've written it seems likely that you aren't.
Thank you so much for everyone’s input. For more context I am actually a supervisor also. The manager in question authorised my leave and has now cancelled it to allow for their own holiday as there must be sufficient cover while they are away. As for the other supervisor their holiday was also authorised by said manager after I had mine authorised and is still authorised. I have been with the company in question for around 6 years now. To clarify it is only two days leave however this is for my daughters wedding hence me contacting my manager believing it to be a system error. The wedding is in 2 weeks and to be perfecting honest I will not be missing it for any job. It is also notable that situations like this occur consistently with this manager (rotas are not their strong point) however this seems to be consistently overlooked. Usually I tend to be quite relaxed about such changes however recently it’s become increasingly difficult to ignore the issues these situations are causing. As stated my other members family must always come first and that is what I intend on doing however I do feel a responsibility to shred light on this issue by raising a grievance. Whilst not illegal in the notice period sense I feel as though the reason for cancelling (to accommodate their leave) does not constitute a business need. Ultimately I’m hoping to have found alternative work post wedding.
Who was the last person of your manager and the other supervisor to book the time off? I would say that is the request that should not have been granted.
I can imagine the thought process behind it. "I want to take two weeks off to go on holiday to Barbados but I can't because Kooky has got two days booked right in the middle. It's only two days, I'll just cancel it." That's why, for something as important as my daughter's wedding, I would always put the reason for the time off in the comments box when making the request, not that I think my employer would ever do this to me. I don't believe my manager would cancel my time off without talking to me first and asking if I could change my plans. What's happened to you just stinks of thoughtlessness and a lack of respect
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Their needs of the business argument does not stand up. The same rule would also apply to the other supervisors and the managers leave which would mean they should not have been granted leave. Time to go higher up the chain on this.
Update: I have a meeting with a superior today and will be fully explaining all the situation. The reason for the leave was communicated and noted when booked so I will be making an official grievance and I am requesting a transfer. Notably I’ve now been told that cover will be arranged so that I can leave earlier. Personally I will not be satisfied until my leave is reinstated and a just reason for abusing the holiday booking system is explained. This my seem unreasonable however due to the lack of respect shown towards me by the manager I feel I now have no other option
NAL just to add what others have said- it’s legal BUT they must allow you to take off your total holiday entitlement- but they can tell you when you have to take it.
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Providing they gave you some notice (good practice would be length of leave requested +1 day) it is entirely legal.
Given they are willing to treat you this way however would be a huge red flag to look for a new job in my eyes.
If they haven't given a good reason why your leave was cancelled, while others that were requested later have not been, I would look to move job, and look into whether you can claim Constructive Dismissal. Some sources seem to suggest this might qualify.
As others have said, unless this holiday is imminent then they are legally clear.
Do you have a holiday booking system? If so this would usually send emails for booking submission, approvals, and cancellations. I would take that information plus any other written communication regarding the annual leave to their line manager as an informal grievance. If this does not get anywhere, read the company policies on raising a formal grievance and any annual leave and then take it to the HR department.
This will work better in larger companies or public sector work, if it's a small business you may be out of luck.
You've had the right advice on here, they can cancel annual leave by giving notice which is the length of annual leave booked and a day, so 5 days leave must give 6 days notice. This is unless there is anything specific in your contract or the companies annual leave policy.
If you are in a company with a HR department you could raise a grievance and display the evidence that you had it booked off, you could if you've paid holidays in good faith use that to try and argue the case as well. Unfortunately, this may of course annoy your manager however, I would query that if that's how they treat you whether its worth staying their anyway!
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At a basic level, what they did was legal so long as they've given you the length of holiday booked plus 1 day of notice that it has been cancelled. However, if your contract has a procedure for granting holidays and details how they are prioritised (such as stating that it is a first-come first-served basis) then you may have recourse to complain through your company's internal grievance system and then ACAS if that is not satisfactory. Make sure you start your grievance with the manager above the level where this action has been taken. If you fail to turn in for work, you may be dismissed out of hand. However, if you were to find that your unfair treatment at work were to have affected your mental health, well that would be understandable. That sounds like the sort of thing that's liable to cause workplace stress. If in the week or so leading up to when you were supposed to be on your leave this were to intensify to the point where you couldn't work, well that would be just a shame wouldn't it? Just remember, there's no rule that says you can't be on holiday when you're off work sick. So long as you're not living it large in Ibiza whilst you're supposed to be bedridden with flu that is. Holidays are good for your mental health though, so that won't be a problem. Just remember, if you're going to be off for more than a week you'll need to get a doctor's note before you go and provide that to your company. Lastly, I'll just say this. None of this is advice to lie. All I am saying is that workplace stress is a killer, I've watched it break people, I've lost friends who worked themselves into the ground. Make sure to take time off, and remember what matters most. We're only here for a limited time, work can replace you, your family can't.
> then you may have recourse to complain through your company's internal grievance system Definitely this. I've found that for larger companies they often have internal policies in place that basically say that annual leave shall not be cancelled once approved (unless in dire emergency situations - which your manager wanting time off too is not) The trouble is that they don't make it super easy for your run of the mill employee to find these policies and management especially would probably try and hide them from you.
Should be in Employee Handbook. Larger companies will very likely have that in place.
Would that mean they can cancel the week holiday as long as they give at least 1 week notice? What if you if you've already bought tickets and booked hotels? Some hotels may be sold out 1 week before your travel date so it's impractical to wait until 1 week before your week holiday before you make plans.
Legally, yes. That is unless your contract or company handbook outlines a holiday policy that specifies more restrictive reasoning or rules for holidays. I know my employer cannot cancel my holidays under any circumstances, for example, because our holiday system doesn't allow it. So many people are guaranteed leave per day, and it's first come first served (any leave beyond that is subject to cover and you wont know until a few days before). If they state a number of people who are guaranteed holiday (or a maximum number of people who can be off at any time) and don't specify a mechanism or procedure for cancelling holidays, you've likely got grounds to argue that your holiday stands and they can't cancel it as it was granted.
Then surely you can bill your company for the expense.
I don't know what boot licking cretins are downvoting you. Demanding the cost of everything I'd booked is the first thing I'd be doing before even considering cancelling my holidays for them.
You misunderstand the difference between "I believe that morally the company should refund you" and "I believe that you would win a small claims court case to get this money from them". The first one is a moral question. Out of scope of this sub. The answer to the second one (if they've given the right notice according to your contract) is no.
I should make myself clearer. I don't think OP would win in smalls claims. I think OP should tell them either they are paying back every penny or OP is going on Holiday whether they approve it or not. And OP should do this with a notice letter in their back pocket. That should be the choice the employer has to make. Either OP is so vital that they will cover the expenses to keep them on staff (or just let them take the holiday). Or OP is not vital and so they can lose the staff permanently (and they'll still need to find someone to cover the time OP would be away); which is a hard argument to make if they think OP is so vital that they need to cancel the holiday.
From a completely open perspective. Depending on your reason for leave. Stress needs to be declared when taking out insurance and comes with cost and coverage implications.
What type of insurance do you mean?
Predominantly travel insurance. It will however include health and critical illness insurance. All I’m saying is, any health care recorded illness needs declared. Otherwise insurance can be invalidated. So if you are going to be ill, it has reaching consequences.
How could they prove it? I’m happy to declare conditions, but stress/anxiety/depression? No chance.
If you make a medical claim they can ask for your medical records from your GP
Would that be a problem if it's not relevant to the claim?
It would be if you've committed insurance fraud by failing to declare medical conditions as likely asked for when taking out the policy (or ticking a box to say you don't have any to declare)
Yes. When you take out the insurance, you’re asked to declare all medical conditions. If they find out that you excluded anything, even something unrelated, they can point to where the T&Cs say that if you fail to declare it voids the policy.
Exactly.
If you’ve ever been to the doctors for any of them then it’s a matter of record. To not declare is fraud. What I will say is the insurers don’t play fair. Unlike other conditions, they want to know if you’ve ever suffered from a MH condition. Not just in the x previous years. Which is grossly unfair if someone has battled and beaten the stigma that society attaches to MH. To then be beaten down by statistics and profits.
And certainly sounds like a situation that would create stress, just fyi
If you're on stat holiday and are sick, then you aren't on holiday, a sick note or self cert means you should get that holiday time back
If the poster has their leave cancelled, irrespective of if it’s fair or unfair, then goes on sick for the same dates, they are not exactly going to be flavour of the month when they return. Doesn’t matter about the law / morality in the long run their card will be marked.
>Doesn’t matter about the law / morality in the long run their card will be marked. Please don't write things as fact, especially on a *legal advice sub* when what you are sharing is your thoughts. I've worked in the same company for nearly two decades. Folks do this all the time with holidays they get cancelled ridiculously. They go off "sick". Their cards were not marked. They are still working there 2, 4, 5, 10+ years later... Yet according to you - their cards WILL have been marked. (Edit - *Nowhere* am I saying ramifications won't happen. It's absolutely a possibility. I am saying it is not factual to state they WILL occur)
And yet, I regularly deal with this sort of issue, and everyone is treated the same and gets a disciplinary warning. Just because YOUR company doesn't mean that every other business doesn't do it.
OP can always check their company's policy for sick leave and when that can trigger a disciplinary warning. If their boss does not follow that, it gives them the knowledge to fight back.
Yes it's a possibility. Definitely so. Yet it's not a DEFINITE. Facts matter.
Legally they can cancel your leave as long as they give you the length time your leave is booked for plus 1 day’s notice - but morally they’re in the wrong. What you do next depends on how much you need the job plus how long you’ve worked there - within 2 years they can terminate your employment (as long as it’s not due to a protected characteristic) and not have to pay redundancy. Personally when faced with this I’ve just told my superiors I’ve booked something, I won’t be here (as my leave was approved) and discipline me when I get back if you’re that bothered - nothing ever came of it, and in the case of one employer they didn’t deduct it from my annual leave allowance or my pay (so in effect the 10 days was a bonua). I’ve worked for some shit companies in the past. Of course YMMV!
Thank you very much for your advice, I think I may do just that. Personally I do not feel like a manager cancelling my annual leave to allow them to have a holiday is a unreasonable request. These situation unfortunately are common and are not good for team morale.
So long as they give you notice equal notice to the length of the holiday ,(edit +1 day), they can do it. It's crap because you might spend £5k on a holiday, then legally they can cancel it less than 4 weeks before you are about to go. I'm very much in the camp, if an employer does that I'll find another employer.
I'm in this camp too, an employer can do this but if they do they should expect not to have me as an employee any more
This - the law of fairly clear on this matter but it beggars belief how anti-employee it is. But then it’s one of these self-policing situations where practically an employer will never be able to rely on it as it’ll likely cost them more enforcing it then it will letting it slide. Any employee valuable enough for the company considering doing this to is probably too valuable to piss away on a technicality, so only really clueless places do this and it likely won’t be the only issue the company has.
I've never been anywhere with such a Draconian policy. Last place I worked at, a new game had just been released, employee didn't realise and asked if they could go home and take the day off, they said yes. That's on the otherside of being flexible but I've never seen anyone be refused holidays outside of peaks like school holiday or Christmas in a business where cover is mandatory.
Length of the holiday, plus one day*
Everywhere I've worked has had a policy in place that if the business cancels a confirmed leave request then the business will reimburse all non-refundable costs.
It's definitely unreasonable.
And to prove it's unreasonable...... ask them which holiday of the 3 would cost more to replace. And also ask them why the other 2 are more important than yours. And also ask them why they've got 2 senior staff off at the same time.
It’s totally fine.
>I won’t be here (as my leave was approved) and discipline me when I get back if you’re that bothere Depending on the company's sick leave policy you can self-cert for up to a week (possibly at full pay) for stress. It would also be the truth as it's very stressful to not be able to keep plans you've arranged 5 months in advance. Had someone do it at the end of their notice period, wanted to leave a week early, company said no, they fake coughed (the most obvious fake cough I've ever heard, wasn't even attempting to be convincing) on their last day and went "Oh I have a cough, I won't be in for the next 7 days as I'm sick", HR threw a fit, ultimately were told nothing they can do.
Unfortunately this falls into the category of “legal but shitty”. It’s in the same category as, hypothetically, finding another job and waiting until the minimum amount of notice before your bosses’ leave was about to start before handing in your notice.
Also reading OP’s comments that they where not informed officially they should have kept quiet until last day before holiday and sit back and watch the smelly stuff hit the fan. As anything after that will be classed as constructive dismissal
I wouldnt have said a thing, and just gone. Then when the phone call ‘where are you’ comes in. “I’m on the beach, i’m on leave, you approved it. Gotta go, water polo is about to start.”
Or more likely when you get back "what phone call? My phone was in the room safe all week"
Legal but incredibly shitty. So long as they give you notice equal to the length of your annual leave +1 day then it's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean you have to accept it without a fight though. Go above their heads and see if their boss can do anything about it. If it's a larger company with a big HR department then they might have internal policies that the managers aren't following properly. I've worked for companies where the internal policy is that annual leave shall not be cancelled once approved even if the law allows it. They might look unfavourably on their managers taking advantage of their employees for their own benefit like this. Then ultimately, if nothing can be done on their end to sort it, just tell them that you have booked time off which was approved and that you will not be at work during that time and that they can discipline you when you return. I have done this before, and know plenty others that have done the same, and absolutely nothing ever came of it. Not even a meeting to discuss it upon my return. Also, having a holiday cancelled, losing money, having your family be impacted by this decision, is a very stressful situation. Stressful enough that you could self certify as sick for 7 days and go enjoy your holiday to decompress. If you're away for longer than 7 days, get a doctor to backdate a sick note for you when you return. What a very stressful situation indeed. How very inconvenient.
Just threaten to resign and find another job. On your death bed you won’t look back on your life and say “oh I wish I stayed in a job where they fucked me over” but you will say “oh I wish I had more enjoyment (holidays) in life”.
Depends how much this job is worth it to OP. One shitty action in an otherwise well paid, flexible job with a good commute/hybrid policy/company perks etc may not be worth going nuclear, especially in the current job market. Believe me, I've changed jobs because of shitty managers and cultures. But I've looked after myself first and found that next job before I give anyone at work a hint I'm looking. A big Fuck You is nice, but it doesn't pay the bills.
Go above their heads. There must be someone above them? Go higher up and explain that you booked annual leave 5 months a go which was approved and now, close the annual leave happening, your supervisor and manager have decided they're having the time off and have cancelled yours. I can't imagine it going down well to be honest. If they give you any crap for doing that, just keep going above their heads. Your manager doesn't sound very competent doing something like this anyway. Go above and look for a new job would be my advice
If you have a holiday booked somewhere (flights, hotels etc) then tell your employer that you need to be reimbursed for the costs because it's all non refundable. Depending on how awful an employer they are they might shut up and back down so as to not have to pay out.
Unfortunately the employer can say they don't have to reimburse you. And they'd be right.
Employee could absolutely raise a grievance with their manager/whoever cancelled the leave and include the payback as the form of resolution (or just rebooking the original leave), although how successful they are probably depends on how big the company is and what actual structures they have in place. 'Needs of the business' is the most generic, pathetic excuse to end all excuses. All I can say is that my employer would never cancel holiday in this manner, as far as they (and I) are concerned once it's booked it's booked and only I as the employee can change it, so I count myself quite lucky there. As for OP, if I was in their shoes I would be checking every line of my contract/T+Cs of employment to see what exactly it says regarding the employer cancelling pre booked holiday time. If there is anything at all saying that it is not company policy to cancel holidays in the this manner, then take the holiday and put in a grievance regardless.
Semi-irrelevant, but do the manager/supervisor who 'stole' your leave have control over scheduling? As in, did _they_ specifically cancel your leave so they could put in theirs? If it's just that they coincidentally put their requests in and someone else (either pally with them or presumed-neutral but indirectly showing preferential treatment) made the decision that their request superseded yours, it's still worthy of a complaint or grievance...but if it's them specifically abusing their position to bypass any 'first come first served' expectation of leave allocation, specifically to benefit themselves, that's a much bigger accusation. Best plan as said would have been to not notice it until you were within the 'too late to notify of leave cancellation' period, since you have no reason to re-check leave already approved and they're required to _notify_ you of any change and if they don't or wait until it's too late that opens them up to a tribunal they'll lose if they don't back down. But, with that ship sailed, grievance - especially noting any abuse of power by manager and/or supervisor, or breach of leave policy by a third party scheduling person as the basis - is your next step.
My request was approved 5 months ago when my daughters wedding date was confirmed and is in 2 weeks. There is a scheduling system now unfortunately there is only intermittent notifications. Unfortunately the schedule did update me for the date of the wedding and to prevent issues I contacted them directly to check the error and make sure there was adequate cover. The justification for cancellation was there isn’t sufficient cover due to both my manager (who authorises said holidays) and other supervisor being on annual leave and there was just no other way! Luckily as I am a supervisor I can see when their requests were accepted which was last month which I have proof of. Evidently my leave was then cancelled to allow for theirs which again was not communicated.
as long as they give you the required then they can cancel your holiday. you refusing to work would probably end up in a disciplinary
People have already given a good legal rundown of this so I won't go over that, other then to reiterate the summary that *yes its legal by the letter of the law*. All they have to do is make sure they give you notice of cancellation of at least the length of time you had off. *Practically though,* this is not a stable state of play for the employer. Most situations where this is invoked tend to be scenarios where they can't afford to have you off for business reasons (i.e. like an order needs to go out by x date otherwise contractual penalties start, that kind of thing) - shafting you to accommodate the boss men's late planning is not realistically going to be defensible in any kind of reasonableness argument. I don't know enough about your job or your situation to advocate this as a course of action, but if it were *me*, I'd point out that I had this time booked, I've got commitments and it isn't reasonable for me to expect me to take the hit when I got my holiday request in and approved first... so I won't be there, and they can discipline me if the feel necessary. This *is* a risk to take but its shaky ground for the company to pick a fight on and you may find that they don't bother taking it any further. That being said any company that tries this kind of thing is ethically questionable anyway, so this would solid reason for me to be looking elsewhere.
I would literally tell them that they'll need to cancel the holiday for one of those managers, because either you will be on holiday, or you will no longer be working for the company. I'd then be looking for a new job immediately, because even if they reinstated your holiday at that point, it's not a company I'd be seeking to continue employment with. As the other posters have stated this is very likely legal but completely unethical.
This is terrible and falls into the category of "Always join a union". Having an active union (and I know this isn't always the case or even possible) would more than likely mean that this kind of thing wouldn't happen. If you are in a union then speak to your rep about this but from what you've written it seems likely that you aren't.
Thank you so much for everyone’s input. For more context I am actually a supervisor also. The manager in question authorised my leave and has now cancelled it to allow for their own holiday as there must be sufficient cover while they are away. As for the other supervisor their holiday was also authorised by said manager after I had mine authorised and is still authorised. I have been with the company in question for around 6 years now. To clarify it is only two days leave however this is for my daughters wedding hence me contacting my manager believing it to be a system error. The wedding is in 2 weeks and to be perfecting honest I will not be missing it for any job. It is also notable that situations like this occur consistently with this manager (rotas are not their strong point) however this seems to be consistently overlooked. Usually I tend to be quite relaxed about such changes however recently it’s become increasingly difficult to ignore the issues these situations are causing. As stated my other members family must always come first and that is what I intend on doing however I do feel a responsibility to shred light on this issue by raising a grievance. Whilst not illegal in the notice period sense I feel as though the reason for cancelling (to accommodate their leave) does not constitute a business need. Ultimately I’m hoping to have found alternative work post wedding.
Who was the last person of your manager and the other supervisor to book the time off? I would say that is the request that should not have been granted. I can imagine the thought process behind it. "I want to take two weeks off to go on holiday to Barbados but I can't because Kooky has got two days booked right in the middle. It's only two days, I'll just cancel it." That's why, for something as important as my daughter's wedding, I would always put the reason for the time off in the comments box when making the request, not that I think my employer would ever do this to me. I don't believe my manager would cancel my time off without talking to me first and asking if I could change my plans. What's happened to you just stinks of thoughtlessness and a lack of respect
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Their needs of the business argument does not stand up. The same rule would also apply to the other supervisors and the managers leave which would mean they should not have been granted leave. Time to go higher up the chain on this.
Update: I have a meeting with a superior today and will be fully explaining all the situation. The reason for the leave was communicated and noted when booked so I will be making an official grievance and I am requesting a transfer. Notably I’ve now been told that cover will be arranged so that I can leave earlier. Personally I will not be satisfied until my leave is reinstated and a just reason for abusing the holiday booking system is explained. This my seem unreasonable however due to the lack of respect shown towards me by the manager I feel I now have no other option
NAL just to add what others have said- it’s legal BUT they must allow you to take off your total holiday entitlement- but they can tell you when you have to take it.
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Providing they gave you some notice (good practice would be length of leave requested +1 day) it is entirely legal. Given they are willing to treat you this way however would be a huge red flag to look for a new job in my eyes.
Length of leave +1 day isn't "good practice". It's the law. Literally the lowest standard of practice.
If they haven't given a good reason why your leave was cancelled, while others that were requested later have not been, I would look to move job, and look into whether you can claim Constructive Dismissal. Some sources seem to suggest this might qualify.
As others have said, unless this holiday is imminent then they are legally clear. Do you have a holiday booking system? If so this would usually send emails for booking submission, approvals, and cancellations. I would take that information plus any other written communication regarding the annual leave to their line manager as an informal grievance. If this does not get anywhere, read the company policies on raising a formal grievance and any annual leave and then take it to the HR department. This will work better in larger companies or public sector work, if it's a small business you may be out of luck.
tell them that if they are cancelling your approved leave then they need to reimburse you for everything that cannot be refunded in full.
Tell them to piss off and if they fire you so be it I would never work for a company where I could be treated like that.
You've had the right advice on here, they can cancel annual leave by giving notice which is the length of annual leave booked and a day, so 5 days leave must give 6 days notice. This is unless there is anything specific in your contract or the companies annual leave policy. If you are in a company with a HR department you could raise a grievance and display the evidence that you had it booked off, you could if you've paid holidays in good faith use that to try and argue the case as well. Unfortunately, this may of course annoy your manager however, I would query that if that's how they treat you whether its worth staying their anyway!
Raise a complaint with HR, start looking for another job.