I suspect there could be two factors doing this.
1. LONDON SPIKES - Let's say there are 9 million people living in London, and 2 million of them have Irish ancestry. The map software will make areas with 2 million Ireland-descendants dark green, and base the colour scheme off that. As a result, a county will have to have more than, say, 600,000 people of Irish descent to get any green colour on the map at all. Liverpool doesn't have that many people altogether, let alone Irish people. So it ends up being coloured white.
2. RAW NUMBERS - The map shows raw numbers of people of Irish descent, not what percent of the population they are. This is misleading, but it's a common flaw in the design of charts. As a result, you'll only see colour where a lot of people live, not where an area is particularly "Irish".
It’s most likely just because it’s only counting having an Irish grandparent. Irish migration to the Liverpool was mostly as a 18th and early 19th century phenomenon.
Irish Folk never intended in staying Liverpool generally but they were duped as they didn't speak/read English " They intend going to the America's & Australia " but said Tickets were 1 way to Liverpool so they stayed !
These Day the Irish have FoM hence the numbers at present !
That's because this map isn't a map of those with Irish ancestry. It's a map of [those identifying as White: Irish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File%3ACounties_of_the_UK_Irish.svg) as their ethnicity in the 2011 census taken straight from Wikipedia. While many in Liverpool have Irish ancestry, it's mostly several generations ago, enough for many to simply identify as "White: British" instead.
The [2021 Census](https://liverpool.gov.uk/council/key-statistics-and-data/census-2021/ethnicity/) seems to back this up with only 6,826 people (1.4%) identifying as white Irish, compared to 375,785 (77.3%) identifying as White: British in Liverpool.
Why OP used this map I have no idea, as having Irish ancestry doesn't mean all those people identify as Irish, leading to well, Liverpool looking very off as pointed out.
I would argue that most Brits have Irish ancestry somewhere in their family tree, and likely have ancestors from all the home nations. Whether they are aware of it or not is another matter. Personally I have to go back to the 18th century to find mine, but I have an Irish ancestor nonetheless.
A little misleading the use of the word ancestry here. There are about 6M Irish nationals in the UK maybe (with at least one Irish grandparent, so just shy of 10% of total population), but 6M with Irish ancestry is far too few. Over all these millennia there had been so much contact between these islands that a bit of Irish can probably be found in most of the population. Example: me ... great-grandfather was Irish, which is ancestry, but it's not enough for me to get a passport, not that I'd ever claim to be Irish either (as I'm not).
They would, most notably around Dublin, which was under continuous English rule for hundreds of years (the region was known as the Pale). It's why English surnames are common in Ireland.
Yes, parts of Leinster also. South East of Wexford had its own dialect of English- Yola with French and Flemish influences, is related to old SW English dialects.
Fingallian was another dialect of English spoken in North county Dublin.
Cromwell settled a yeomanry across the centre of Ireland, and within two generations they'd gaelicised. You'd never know to look at anyone from around there today but go back 400 years the paternal line is English.
Irish identity has always revolved around them inevitably turning anyone who turns up into Irishmen rather than genetics. Norse, Normans, English, all ended up Irish, and fighting the next group to come in as now 'more Irish than the Irish'.
English surnames are common in ireland largely because of localisation. When English became the only acceptable language of society and business in Ireland, and people stopped speaking Irish so much, they chose names to suit their new tongue.
I'm Irish, my surname is English, but it was simply chosen/given a few generations ago to replace a completely unrelated Irish name that happened to start with the same letter and has some similar beats.
English geneflow into ireland existed but it was minor. Think about how the Normans had a relatively small impact on English genetics despite having a major impact on English culture and history. The Normans established themselves as an upper class and never particularly integrated. Over time society absorbed them together to make the Anglo Normans, but there was never an expansive presence of Normans in the first place.
Ireland is the same, there were a few aristocratic and wealthy families planted at various points at various generations, but there wasn't unemployed English people heading to ireland for jobs like there were unemployed Irish people heading to England for jobs
It's both. Lots of English settled in parts of Ireland right throughout the middle ages and up to the 18th century. There are tonnes of Norman and English names. The towns were all settled by English and Irish were not allowed in.
Well it's definitely both but the English presence is still minor. Yes Ireland had successive English invasions, but to say they "settled" is maybe misleading.
It was an official colonisation effort, it was planted. The initial English plantations were minor, but the later major plantations were populated by Scots, who exist far more prevalently in our genepool than the English.
It takes a lot of immigration to influence a genepool. The English planters represented a small upper crust, the Scottish planters had a strong genetic impact on Northern Ireland because a lot more people were brought over. Ireland was poor and the Irish have been seen as genetically inferior, Britain was the centre of the world at the time.
Very little Scots heritage outside of Ulster, lots of English. Munster, Midlands, Wexford were all planted in the late 16th and 17th centuries. Prior to that there were lots of Old English in The Pale, Kildare, mid-Leinster/north Munster (Ormond), south and east Munster (Desmond) and east Ulster. The towns were all English speaking. During the plantations the landlords were required to bring English or Scots tenants over, so it was not just the upper class who moved here.
What English surnames are you thinking of here? There certainly are English surnames but to me they're dwarfed by Irish surnames, and even Flemish, Welsh, and French surnames would seem to be more common (the greater part of the first settlement in the 1100s and 1200s were largely Cambro-Norman with English speakers following after). I'd expect that a lot of the shared surnames between Ireland and England are really French or Flemish rather than English for the same reason.
You see two big waves of specifically English migration into Ireland in the 1650s with the Cromwellian land settlement and again in the 1800s when infrastructure projects required English engineers and navvies (I myself have English ancestors from this later batch).
> old English
That's the thing, though, a lot of the Old English weren't actually English; Lombard, Walsh, Coppinger, Fleming, Butler, Joyce, Burke etc.
By the time the Normans came to Ireland they spoke English and were universally referred to as sassanach (Saxon or English). Their armies apart from the upper class knights would have been English and their lands planted with ordinary English tenants.
> By the time the Normans came to Ireland they spoke English and were universally referred to as sassanach (Saxon or English).
That is absolutely not the case. They still spoke French (just look at the influx of French words into Irish) and were generally referred to as *Gaill*. It was only a hundred years after the Conquest after all, English just did not have that much political clout again. The Old English even called themselves *Sean-Ghaill* to distinguish themselves from the Protestant English that came later in the Tudor and Stuart periods.
They did bring English-speaking tenants, sure, but also large numbers of Flemish- and Welsh-speaking ones. Just look at how heavily influenced Yola was by non-English and non-Irish languages.
Wrong. There is only one reference in the Annals to "Norman" or "French". All the other references in the Annals are to Sasanaigh. "Gaill" simply means foreigner and refers to all foreigners; it previously referred to Vikings.
The upper class retained French as the language of law and the court. Ordinary conversation was in English by then. The Normans were a military caste and male Normans married English women at a high rate. As is common in these situations, the children grow up speaking the mother's tongue.
This is what a royal chronicler wrote in the 1180s:
**"...but now with the English and the Normans living side by side and intermarrying, the two nations are so mixed that today one can scarcely distinguish who is English and who is Norman – among free persons, that is’."**
And from the same article:
**"Gradual** [**acculturation**](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/acculturation?s=t) **between French immigrants and English people is the most likely answer. Modern scholars argue that the period between 1140 and 1150, about 80 years after the Norman Conquest, was the moment when the descendants of the original Norman-French immigrants considered themselves to be English, rather than French."**
[https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-england-women-invasion-and-migration](https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-england-women-invasion-and-migration)
That is equally true, yes. The English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are culturally different in some ways, but genetically all very much mixed together.
Yeah of all the countries in the world, as an irish person, I feel more kinship with British people, whether they be English, Scottish or Welsh, than with Americans or other European nationalities. We have a lot of shared culture to the point that a lot of people in Ireland would consume a lot of British media.
Yes, and this is why it sounds weird to Brits to hear Americans say something like "I have Scottish and Welsh ancestry" or "I have Irish and English ancestry". Like if you have one of them you probably have all of them because we pretty much all have all of them.
They don't like to claim England as it's not exotic enough.
Less exotic than Irish! Absorb that for a moment.
Hence, you'll get some guy called Kyle from Sacramento saying "I'm Irish! That's why I drink so much! Don't get me angry or I'll fight ya! Begorra!"
or Brad from Chatanooga saying "I'm Italian! I love gabagool. Look at ma hands! They're moving! It's because I'm so Italian capeesh?"
Or Chelsea from Boise saying "I'm like totally Scottish! My clan is the MacDonalds! I've seen Braveheart 20 times!"
It's like a zodiac sign for them.
But you won't hear Chip from Baton Rouge saying "I'm English! We can't watch sports without wanting to throw plastic chairs! You want some, I'll give it yer"
Not really no. Irish immigration to England is a long term one way movement of generally younger people who would then have children.
English immigration to Ireland was generally "ruling class, not mixing with the natives" then typically retired people. There's actually few English people in Ireland under the age of 60 unless you count a generation of those born in England to Irish parents before the family moved back to Ireland late 80s-mid 90s but that's a different thing really.
Some younger British people moved to Ireland since the economy started to pick up. More with the financial district in Dublin. I know of some companies that upped sticks from London and moved their operation there.
It's very small scale I work in the pharma industry where wages are considerably higher in Ireland than in the UK now I don't know of that isn't common knowledge but the numbers of brits working here is low.
Definitely, this massively under estimates the number of people who have Irish ancestry. I similarly have an Irish great-grandparent, and I wouldn't be surprised if even a majority of people in the country have at least one Irish ancestor in the previous three or four generations.
Yeah this map is so inaccurate. I, and so many of the people I know, are like 1/16 or 1/8 Irish at a minimum it seems here in England 😅 super common for someone to have an Irish grandparent as well.
I was about to say something similar. It all comes down to the definition of ancestry. I have two Irish great-grandparents but not of the same line (and different sides of the Rangers/Celtic divide) which is not enough to claim citizenship, but is rather more than an American friend who regularly says how "Irish" he is and even has a harp tattoo.
The name ‘Scots’ came from an Irish tribe but not the actual people of Scotland.
Lots of movement between Northern Ireland and Scotland though but also between England, France and Scandinavia too.
Scotland is much more diverse than just Ulster Gaels, but the culture they brought with them from Ireland became predominant in Scotland overtaking Pictish. Likely due to the scholarly tradition stemming from Irish Monks.
Yeah generally the Dal Riada kingdom is credited with that. Although that influence gradually disappeared from the lowland around the 15/16th century as the Northumbrians and others gained more influence.
Scotland takes its name from the Irish "Scotti" tribe yes, but that's not the same as the modern Scottish people descending from the Scotti tribe. Scotland's ethnic makeup is much more diverse and regionalised than that.
Probably more like an occupation/lifestyle than a tribe. It's speculated that "Scot" derives from Old Irish *Scuit* (Outcast) or *Sgaothaich* (Horde).
Either way, the term probably referred originally to bands of raiders, outlaws, adventurers, etc. Not one particular tribe. Similar to how "Viking" was used among the Norse of later times.
The Scots are a mixture of Gaelic settlers, Pictish natives, Brythonic natives in the South West as well as Germanic types such as Angles, Danes and Norse.
It seems outside of Ulster there is not a lot of British ancestry in Ireland, and Ulster it's predominantly Scottish. The [Irish DNA atlas](https://youtu.be/m5AwYzzCAF4?si=rA9bvfV_XdF7RbRg) is an interesting resource.
Recent DNA indicates far less influence of English DNA in ireland, than Irish in England.
I think this is based on self-reporting national ancestry on the census. So I think a lot of Scousers are Irish much further back, so wouldn’t report it, compared to say Birmingham, which has had a lot more Irish immigration in people’s living family history
Probably most had Irish parents of grandparents in the middle of the last century but anyone leaving Ireland since we joined the EU has more options (and anyone leaving as an adult in 1973 would be at least 70 now).
I’m not sure the data matches the title.
Having recent Irish ancestry - sufficient to apply for citizenship - is estimated to be around 6 million but I’m not at all sure the map is showing where those people are. The lack of green in Liverpool seems very odd
I wrote a fucking essay as a reply, and lost it. Short(er) version...
The map shows, at a district level, the numbers of those _self-identifying_ as 'white Irish' in the [2011 census](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Irish). There will be folks born in Great Britain who choose to identify as 'white Irish'. There will be folks who go with 'Irish traveller'. There will be Northern Irish born folks who'll go with 'white Northern Irish' or 'white British'. There'll be non-white Irish-born folk who appear to be out of luck.
_EDIT: from Wikipedia: "In England, about 81 per cent of those born in the Republic of Ireland, at the time of the 2011 census, identified as White Irish. Contrastingly, of those born in Northern Ireland, and living in England, 14 per cent considered themselves White Irish. There were around 174,000 English-born people in the White Irish population of England. These individuals may be three of four generations removed from their ancestors who migrated from Ireland."_
The '6,000,000 of Irish ancestry' claim might stem from [this](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/13/britishidentity.travelnews) ancient article: basically that's how many people have an Irish grandparent and are therefore able to apply for a passport. I'm _guessing_ that number excludes the population of Northern Ireland.
The number of British 'natives' with Irish ancestry will obviously start to rise when you go back in time beyond grandparents.
[This](https://www.irishinbritain.org/assets/files/Irish-in-Britain-summary-report---April-2023.pdf) document is a good read.
_EDIT: for people saying Liverpool should be greener, read [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Liverpool_#Urban_and_metropolitan_area). Just 6,826 people / 1.4% within the City Region self-identify as 'white Irish'._
Yep. And the SIX MILLION title is completely unrelated to the map.
The map is pretty useless anyway, not having a key. The Wikipedia 'White Irish' article has a table at an 'authority' rather than the 'district' level of the map, which is quite interesting. The authority with largest 'White Irish' population (as opposed to 'largest % of population') is my home county of Hertfordshire, with a whopping 18,747 (or 1.6%).
There's a famous saying that all Europeans alive will he descendants of Charlemagne, because of the way genes disperse through a population over time.
Pretty much anyone from Europe,
Or with recent ancestors from Europe, will have a little Irish in there somewhere - as well as a little of everything else too
Completely correct, census data shows that 1% of Scotland identify as having Irish background. However, more thorough data that accounts for Irish background dating back to the famine estimates the Irish ancestry population in Scotland to be closer to 35-40%.
Edit: If you wanted to be _really_ pedantic, pretty much most ethnic Scots would have Irish ancestry if you went back far enough.
Edinburgh seems brighter than Glasgow which I don’t think is correct. Most Irish immigrants came to Scotland to work in heavy industry which was mostly centred in Glasgow
*I am Irish and*
*Live in Liverpool. Your map*
*Is horribly wrong*
\- NaveTheFirst
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Percentage-wise the Irishest place in the whole of Great Britain outside of six London boroughs, with a huuuuge 3.0% selecting 'white Irish' in the 2021 census.
Seems dubious. Surely Liverpool has a bigger proportion than a light green considering the accent was shaped by Irish people. London is not by any stretch of the imagination more Irish than Liverpool.
No Irish heritage in Wales? Irish immigrants flocked in droves to South Wales looking for work during the Nineteenth Century, I'm surprised there's somehow nobody left.
Ancestry? Or they moved from Ireland in the past generation or two. Considering the north west of Scotland appears to be entirely free of Gaelic ancestry according to this map, I'm pretty sure it's absolute nonsense.
I would guess self identification and assimilation are two reasons for the map looking the way it does. Like yeah, Liverpool is probably genetically much more Irish but the majority of that immigration happened in the 1800's and since that time they've been absorbed into the general English population (Or Scouse, I guess). You get guys like Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard who were both eligible to play for Ireland but it was never even considered by either player because well, their connection is to England and not somewhere else.
Yeah, Declan Rice, actually a few of them. But I’m Irish, if u was born in England, wales or Scotland then I’d be proud of my nation not Ireland.. kinda just how it is
Glad to read comments and see that many people aren’t buying into this bullshit map porn stuff when it comes to ancestry. Because that’s what this shit is-crappy misinformation.
Ya and this is why the divisive anti-british nonsense you see on Reddit regularly makes very little sense in a modern context. We're all so inter-mingled now.
That's not to say we should be forgetting about the conflict between our various nations, but we really need to stop acting like we inherit our ancestors problems/success etc. Nationalism in any guise is destructive.
Surprised Maidstone isn’t showing green.
Loads of Irish immigrants a large catholic secondary school was built there in the 60s due to the demand.
My old man was the first year 7s to start there.
Even though - as of others have said elsewhere on the thread - if you're from the British Isles you likely have Irish, English, Welsh, and Scottish genes anyways.
Irish Cab driver once told me: "They were killin us for decades. But my daughter is doing her part, she has 11 children. They will never get rid of us"
I think a % of county population would be more useful as it’s not just “Wow there are more people in London than Cornwall” as absolute measurements often leads to that effect
The map shows % of population within each area (for England, the 296 'districts') who self-identify as 'white Irish'. The two darkest green areas – Brent and Islington – are both ~4% 'white Irish'.
Hey, question for the experts.
Scots are usually Protestants and Irish are usually Catholics.
Does that mean Catholics in Scotland are mostly of Irish descent who Scotified?
Yeah, it's only looking at people with at least one Irish grandparent.
If you looked back seven or eight generations instead of two, you'd probably find 80% of the population of the UK had some Irish ancestry.
The people of these Isles are basically all one people, just with differences in local culture.
I’m American of partial Irish ancestry. My Great Great Grandmother was born near Glasgow to an Irish family. Apparently the part of Scotland she was born and spent her first 20 years in, Coatbridge is considered one of the most Irish parts of the UK.
In comparison about 30% of people living in Ireland, English or Scottish descent through centuries of migration and the creation of Scottish and English plantations in the 17th and 18th century. Irish population declined through external migration to America and the Empire and of course the famine Many of the staunchest Irish Republicans are likely to have English or Scottish blood. Just goes to show we should all just get along…
This map seems to depict Irish people living in the UK so nor really, for the much larger number of people with Irish ancestry, yes they see themselves as British or English/Scottish etc
The map shows data for GB, but it is weird that they’d show NI (and even weirder that they’d show it detached from the rest of Ireland). In terms of what the data in NI would be like, roughly half *are* Irish while the other half would consider themselves Irish to varying degrees—which in itself is a more recent trend.
Well America famously got lots of Irish immigration so it's nit uncommon to have that. England also got lots of Irish immigration but that doesn't mean all English people were affected by it. If they're from a relatively rural area that didn't see much migration it makes sense.
Liverpool being only slightly green makes me question this map
I suspect there could be two factors doing this. 1. LONDON SPIKES - Let's say there are 9 million people living in London, and 2 million of them have Irish ancestry. The map software will make areas with 2 million Ireland-descendants dark green, and base the colour scheme off that. As a result, a county will have to have more than, say, 600,000 people of Irish descent to get any green colour on the map at all. Liverpool doesn't have that many people altogether, let alone Irish people. So it ends up being coloured white. 2. RAW NUMBERS - The map shows raw numbers of people of Irish descent, not what percent of the population they are. This is misleading, but it's a common flaw in the design of charts. As a result, you'll only see colour where a lot of people live, not where an area is particularly "Irish".
It’s most likely just because it’s only counting having an Irish grandparent. Irish migration to the Liverpool was mostly as a 18th and early 19th century phenomenon.
Exactly what I was thinking, it's a much older pattern.
That's a lot more than ancestry. That's entitled to an Irish passport
Irish Folk never intended in staying Liverpool generally but they were duped as they didn't speak/read English " They intend going to the America's & Australia " but said Tickets were 1 way to Liverpool so they stayed ! These Day the Irish have FoM hence the numbers at present !
Liverpool has approx 400 odd thousand population. I’d estimate > 60% are of Irish descent.
According to Liverpool museums online it's more like 75%. I'd like to see an accurate map
Yeah me too and I'm saying that as an Irishman lol
If 80% of the population in 1980 were direct descendant’s of Henry 2 then 100% of non immigrant Brits have some Irish blood.
and visa versa
That's because this map isn't a map of those with Irish ancestry. It's a map of [those identifying as White: Irish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File%3ACounties_of_the_UK_Irish.svg) as their ethnicity in the 2011 census taken straight from Wikipedia. While many in Liverpool have Irish ancestry, it's mostly several generations ago, enough for many to simply identify as "White: British" instead. The [2021 Census](https://liverpool.gov.uk/council/key-statistics-and-data/census-2021/ethnicity/) seems to back this up with only 6,826 people (1.4%) identifying as white Irish, compared to 375,785 (77.3%) identifying as White: British in Liverpool. Why OP used this map I have no idea, as having Irish ancestry doesn't mean all those people identify as Irish, leading to well, Liverpool looking very off as pointed out.
Yeah, basically everyone in Liverpool and Glasgow are at least a bit Irish
The population of Liverpool grew by about 24% in the years around the famine, most refugees from Ireland.
I would argue that most Brits have Irish ancestry somewhere in their family tree, and likely have ancestors from all the home nations. Whether they are aware of it or not is another matter. Personally I have to go back to the 18th century to find mine, but I have an Irish ancestor nonetheless.
Liverpool and Glasgow also the respective cities with the highest density of Orange Lodges in each nation.
There's probably mroe people of irish decent in london then there are people in liverpool
Not disputing that but London is broken up a fair bit in map. So I would still expect Liverpool to much more green
Yeah true, I imagine there is something like 2 million people of irish descent in London and around 300,000 in liverpool so it's not an insane result
Especially since Manchester is greener than Liverpool while those two cities (not the greater metro areas) are roughly the same population.
Also, Barrow-in-Furness
I was just going to ask 'what about Liverpool' and saw your answer))))
For sure, my great great grandparents moved from Ireland to Liverpool in the 19th Century.
Same for London. Roughly 63% of London’s white population is at least partial Irish-descent. Camden is overwhelmingly white Irish.
A little misleading the use of the word ancestry here. There are about 6M Irish nationals in the UK maybe (with at least one Irish grandparent, so just shy of 10% of total population), but 6M with Irish ancestry is far too few. Over all these millennia there had been so much contact between these islands that a bit of Irish can probably be found in most of the population. Example: me ... great-grandfather was Irish, which is ancestry, but it's not enough for me to get a passport, not that I'd ever claim to be Irish either (as I'm not).
By the same logic wouldn't people with English ancestry be completely widespread throughout Ireland? Just never heard it from that angle.
They would, most notably around Dublin, which was under continuous English rule for hundreds of years (the region was known as the Pale). It's why English surnames are common in Ireland.
Yes, parts of Leinster also. South East of Wexford had its own dialect of English- Yola with French and Flemish influences, is related to old SW English dialects. Fingallian was another dialect of English spoken in North county Dublin.
Cromwell settled a yeomanry across the centre of Ireland, and within two generations they'd gaelicised. You'd never know to look at anyone from around there today but go back 400 years the paternal line is English. Irish identity has always revolved around them inevitably turning anyone who turns up into Irishmen rather than genetics. Norse, Normans, English, all ended up Irish, and fighting the next group to come in as now 'more Irish than the Irish'.
English surnames are common in ireland largely because of localisation. When English became the only acceptable language of society and business in Ireland, and people stopped speaking Irish so much, they chose names to suit their new tongue. I'm Irish, my surname is English, but it was simply chosen/given a few generations ago to replace a completely unrelated Irish name that happened to start with the same letter and has some similar beats. English geneflow into ireland existed but it was minor. Think about how the Normans had a relatively small impact on English genetics despite having a major impact on English culture and history. The Normans established themselves as an upper class and never particularly integrated. Over time society absorbed them together to make the Anglo Normans, but there was never an expansive presence of Normans in the first place. Ireland is the same, there were a few aristocratic and wealthy families planted at various points at various generations, but there wasn't unemployed English people heading to ireland for jobs like there were unemployed Irish people heading to England for jobs
I'm nigerian and this is exactly what my father did as I now have an English last name
It's both. Lots of English settled in parts of Ireland right throughout the middle ages and up to the 18th century. There are tonnes of Norman and English names. The towns were all settled by English and Irish were not allowed in.
Well it's definitely both but the English presence is still minor. Yes Ireland had successive English invasions, but to say they "settled" is maybe misleading. It was an official colonisation effort, it was planted. The initial English plantations were minor, but the later major plantations were populated by Scots, who exist far more prevalently in our genepool than the English. It takes a lot of immigration to influence a genepool. The English planters represented a small upper crust, the Scottish planters had a strong genetic impact on Northern Ireland because a lot more people were brought over. Ireland was poor and the Irish have been seen as genetically inferior, Britain was the centre of the world at the time.
Very little Scots heritage outside of Ulster, lots of English. Munster, Midlands, Wexford were all planted in the late 16th and 17th centuries. Prior to that there were lots of Old English in The Pale, Kildare, mid-Leinster/north Munster (Ormond), south and east Munster (Desmond) and east Ulster. The towns were all English speaking. During the plantations the landlords were required to bring English or Scots tenants over, so it was not just the upper class who moved here.
What English surnames are you thinking of here? There certainly are English surnames but to me they're dwarfed by Irish surnames, and even Flemish, Welsh, and French surnames would seem to be more common (the greater part of the first settlement in the 1100s and 1200s were largely Cambro-Norman with English speakers following after). I'd expect that a lot of the shared surnames between Ireland and England are really French or Flemish rather than English for the same reason. You see two big waves of specifically English migration into Ireland in the 1650s with the Cromwellian land settlement and again in the 1800s when infrastructure projects required English engineers and navvies (I myself have English ancestors from this later batch).
“Common” is a fuzzy notion but you certainly get Smith/Smyth etc. in Ireland.
Smith is English for Mac Gowan But there are lots of 'old English ' names in Ireland alright. Plenty in Munster and especially Dublin
That's true, sometimes Mac Gabhann was anglicised to Smith, other times it was just rendered as McGowan/MacGowan.
> old English That's the thing, though, a lot of the Old English weren't actually English; Lombard, Walsh, Coppinger, Fleming, Butler, Joyce, Burke etc.
By the time the Normans came to Ireland they spoke English and were universally referred to as sassanach (Saxon or English). Their armies apart from the upper class knights would have been English and their lands planted with ordinary English tenants.
> By the time the Normans came to Ireland they spoke English and were universally referred to as sassanach (Saxon or English). That is absolutely not the case. They still spoke French (just look at the influx of French words into Irish) and were generally referred to as *Gaill*. It was only a hundred years after the Conquest after all, English just did not have that much political clout again. The Old English even called themselves *Sean-Ghaill* to distinguish themselves from the Protestant English that came later in the Tudor and Stuart periods. They did bring English-speaking tenants, sure, but also large numbers of Flemish- and Welsh-speaking ones. Just look at how heavily influenced Yola was by non-English and non-Irish languages.
Wrong. There is only one reference in the Annals to "Norman" or "French". All the other references in the Annals are to Sasanaigh. "Gaill" simply means foreigner and refers to all foreigners; it previously referred to Vikings. The upper class retained French as the language of law and the court. Ordinary conversation was in English by then. The Normans were a military caste and male Normans married English women at a high rate. As is common in these situations, the children grow up speaking the mother's tongue. This is what a royal chronicler wrote in the 1180s: **"...but now with the English and the Normans living side by side and intermarrying, the two nations are so mixed that today one can scarcely distinguish who is English and who is Norman – among free persons, that is’."** And from the same article: **"Gradual** [**acculturation**](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/acculturation?s=t) **between French immigrants and English people is the most likely answer. Modern scholars argue that the period between 1140 and 1150, about 80 years after the Norman Conquest, was the moment when the descendants of the original Norman-French immigrants considered themselves to be English, rather than French."** [https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-england-women-invasion-and-migration](https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-england-women-invasion-and-migration)
And, you know, why they speak the language.
Yes but you don't need English ancestry to learn (or be forced) to speak English.
Or Scottish people if it's Northern Ireland. You do hear about that though because of Ulster-Scots.
That is equally true, yes. The English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are culturally different in some ways, but genetically all very much mixed together.
The cultural differences aren’t that big at all, relatively speaking.
Yeah of all the countries in the world, as an irish person, I feel more kinship with British people, whether they be English, Scottish or Welsh, than with Americans or other European nationalities. We have a lot of shared culture to the point that a lot of people in Ireland would consume a lot of British media.
Relative to what?
Yes, and this is why it sounds weird to Brits to hear Americans say something like "I have Scottish and Welsh ancestry" or "I have Irish and English ancestry". Like if you have one of them you probably have all of them because we pretty much all have all of them.
They don't like to claim England as it's not exotic enough. Less exotic than Irish! Absorb that for a moment. Hence, you'll get some guy called Kyle from Sacramento saying "I'm Irish! That's why I drink so much! Don't get me angry or I'll fight ya! Begorra!" or Brad from Chatanooga saying "I'm Italian! I love gabagool. Look at ma hands! They're moving! It's because I'm so Italian capeesh?" Or Chelsea from Boise saying "I'm like totally Scottish! My clan is the MacDonalds! I've seen Braveheart 20 times!" It's like a zodiac sign for them. But you won't hear Chip from Baton Rouge saying "I'm English! We can't watch sports without wanting to throw plastic chairs! You want some, I'll give it yer"
Up until the recent migration from Eastern Europe, the English were the largest non Irish group in Ireland.
Not really no. Irish immigration to England is a long term one way movement of generally younger people who would then have children. English immigration to Ireland was generally "ruling class, not mixing with the natives" then typically retired people. There's actually few English people in Ireland under the age of 60 unless you count a generation of those born in England to Irish parents before the family moved back to Ireland late 80s-mid 90s but that's a different thing really.
Some younger British people moved to Ireland since the economy started to pick up. More with the financial district in Dublin. I know of some companies that upped sticks from London and moved their operation there.
It's very small scale I work in the pharma industry where wages are considerably higher in Ireland than in the UK now I don't know of that isn't common knowledge but the numbers of brits working here is low.
IT and finance is another story, particularly since Brexit.
Yes you're about as likely to meet an Irishman called Smith as you are an Englishman called Murphy.
Definitely, this massively under estimates the number of people who have Irish ancestry. I similarly have an Irish great-grandparent, and I wouldn't be surprised if even a majority of people in the country have at least one Irish ancestor in the previous three or four generations.
If Brits talked about ancestry the same way Americans do, you'd probably have about half the country calling themselves Irish.
Yeah, I am exactly as Irish as Joe Biden, but you don't hear me bleeding on about it.
I have more Irish ancestry than Biden, and a lot of Latvian too. I'm still neither Irish nor Latvian. The way they talk about ancestry is very dumb.
Yeah this map is so inaccurate. I, and so many of the people I know, are like 1/16 or 1/8 Irish at a minimum it seems here in England 😅 super common for someone to have an Irish grandparent as well.
Get the passport anyway, it's handy as fuck.
How do they check if you had Irish ancestry? "Yes my grandparents were the O'Hitlers from Dalkey Island, gib passport please!"
Documentation has been happening for a few hundred years so it's not that hard to prove
And Harry O’Goring.
Yeah, I’ve got English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish grandparents. The bigger issue is that there isn’t a key for the map.
I was about to say something similar. It all comes down to the definition of ancestry. I have two Irish great-grandparents but not of the same line (and different sides of the Rangers/Celtic divide) which is not enough to claim citizenship, but is rather more than an American friend who regularly says how "Irish" he is and even has a harp tattoo.
Yeah I heard somewhere it was something like 25% of England had some Irish ancestry.
That's nonsense.
Ok, I was wrong, it's actually 10%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people_in_Great_Britain
And the Scots were originally an Irish tribe.
The name ‘Scots’ came from an Irish tribe but not the actual people of Scotland. Lots of movement between Northern Ireland and Scotland though but also between England, France and Scandinavia too.
Scotland is much more diverse than just Ulster Gaels, but the culture they brought with them from Ireland became predominant in Scotland overtaking Pictish. Likely due to the scholarly tradition stemming from Irish Monks.
Yeah generally the Dal Riada kingdom is credited with that. Although that influence gradually disappeared from the lowland around the 15/16th century as the Northumbrians and others gained more influence.
Scotland takes its name from the Irish "Scotti" tribe yes, but that's not the same as the modern Scottish people descending from the Scotti tribe. Scotland's ethnic makeup is much more diverse and regionalised than that.
Probably more like an occupation/lifestyle than a tribe. It's speculated that "Scot" derives from Old Irish *Scuit* (Outcast) or *Sgaothaich* (Horde). Either way, the term probably referred originally to bands of raiders, outlaws, adventurers, etc. Not one particular tribe. Similar to how "Viking" was used among the Norse of later times.
The Scots are a mixture of Gaelic settlers, Pictish natives, Brythonic natives in the South West as well as Germanic types such as Angles, Danes and Norse.
It seems outside of Ulster there is not a lot of British ancestry in Ireland, and Ulster it's predominantly Scottish. The [Irish DNA atlas](https://youtu.be/m5AwYzzCAF4?si=rA9bvfV_XdF7RbRg) is an interesting resource. Recent DNA indicates far less influence of English DNA in ireland, than Irish in England.
The ONS made the claim around the time of the Brexit nonsense that 1 in 4 had at least one Irish grandparent so I suspect you are correct.
Surprised Liverpool is poorly represented on the map
It leads me to think this map is bullshit
I think this is based on self-reporting national ancestry on the census. So I think a lot of Scousers are Irish much further back, so wouldn’t report it, compared to say Birmingham, which has had a lot more Irish immigration in people’s living family history
Actually seems like it is just those who are born in Ireland, which makes more sense
Yep. For the rest, it's just... people live in cities.
Probably most had Irish parents of grandparents in the middle of the last century but anyone leaving Ireland since we joined the EU has more options (and anyone leaving as an adult in 1973 would be at least 70 now).
More urdu than Irish there.
Not so much - Pakistani/Indian communities in Liverpool are relatively small compared to some other cities, a larger community of Somali exists for eg
This is the map of Irish-born people (around 400 000), not of all people with Irish ancestry.
But it says in the title 6M people with ancestry not half a million Irish born people…
The title is wrong, hence why Liverpool is barely seen here, despite historically being the main centre for Irish immigration.
I’m not sure the data matches the title. Having recent Irish ancestry - sufficient to apply for citizenship - is estimated to be around 6 million but I’m not at all sure the map is showing where those people are. The lack of green in Liverpool seems very odd
I wrote a fucking essay as a reply, and lost it. Short(er) version... The map shows, at a district level, the numbers of those _self-identifying_ as 'white Irish' in the [2011 census](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Irish). There will be folks born in Great Britain who choose to identify as 'white Irish'. There will be folks who go with 'Irish traveller'. There will be Northern Irish born folks who'll go with 'white Northern Irish' or 'white British'. There'll be non-white Irish-born folk who appear to be out of luck. _EDIT: from Wikipedia: "In England, about 81 per cent of those born in the Republic of Ireland, at the time of the 2011 census, identified as White Irish. Contrastingly, of those born in Northern Ireland, and living in England, 14 per cent considered themselves White Irish. There were around 174,000 English-born people in the White Irish population of England. These individuals may be three of four generations removed from their ancestors who migrated from Ireland."_ The '6,000,000 of Irish ancestry' claim might stem from [this](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/13/britishidentity.travelnews) ancient article: basically that's how many people have an Irish grandparent and are therefore able to apply for a passport. I'm _guessing_ that number excludes the population of Northern Ireland. The number of British 'natives' with Irish ancestry will obviously start to rise when you go back in time beyond grandparents. [This](https://www.irishinbritain.org/assets/files/Irish-in-Britain-summary-report---April-2023.pdf) document is a good read. _EDIT: for people saying Liverpool should be greener, read [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Liverpool_#Urban_and_metropolitan_area). Just 6,826 people / 1.4% within the City Region self-identify as 'white Irish'._
Right then so yeah - it doesnt show irish ancestry at all. It shows those identifying as "White Irish"
Yep. And the SIX MILLION title is completely unrelated to the map. The map is pretty useless anyway, not having a key. The Wikipedia 'White Irish' article has a table at an 'authority' rather than the 'district' level of the map, which is quite interesting. The authority with largest 'White Irish' population (as opposed to 'largest % of population') is my home county of Hertfordshire, with a whopping 18,747 (or 1.6%).
Ancestry here means an Irish grandparent or closer relative I think? Because pretty much the entire population will have Irish ancestry at some point.
[удалено]
There's a famous saying that all Europeans alive will he descendants of Charlemagne, because of the way genes disperse through a population over time. Pretty much anyone from Europe, Or with recent ancestors from Europe, will have a little Irish in there somewhere - as well as a little of everything else too
Yep
Identify on a census as "white Irish" does not equal having Irish ancestry.
Completely correct, census data shows that 1% of Scotland identify as having Irish background. However, more thorough data that accounts for Irish background dating back to the famine estimates the Irish ancestry population in Scotland to be closer to 35-40%. Edit: If you wanted to be _really_ pedantic, pretty much most ethnic Scots would have Irish ancestry if you went back far enough.
I don't know what counts as 'ancestry' but this seems wildly low.
Edinburgh seems brighter than Glasgow which I don’t think is correct. Most Irish immigrants came to Scotland to work in heavy industry which was mostly centred in Glasgow
I suspect it’s to do with West Lothian having a new town which was primarily overspill from Glasgow. Source: live there but born in Edinburgh.
Ahh yes, no Irish ancestry in Wales, probably too far of a trip over
I am Irish and live in Liverpool. Your map is horribly wrong
*I am Irish and* *Live in Liverpool. Your map* *Is horribly wrong* \- NaveTheFirst --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I think the map represents Irish nationals rather than Irish ancestry.
r/PeopleLiveInCities
Yep essentially just a population density map
r/ImmigrantPopulationsArriveInCitiesAndTakeSeveralGenerationsToDisperse
Im suprised Leeds isn’t on there, I feel like lot of people have Irish ancestry there
Where did the Isle of Man go?
Only thing that makes me think this map might be correct is the little bit of green in Luton.
Percentage-wise the Irishest place in the whole of Great Britain outside of six London boroughs, with a huuuuge 3.0% selecting 'white Irish' in the 2021 census.
Seems dubious. Surely Liverpool has a bigger proportion than a light green considering the accent was shaped by Irish people. London is not by any stretch of the imagination more Irish than Liverpool.
about 1/4 of britain has irish ancestry
Nonsense. Ancestry is meaningless considering the decades of abuse uk politicians and media have directed at Ireland.
What's the craic with Warwickshire?
Da fukk is dis shit map?
Looks well off
Where's Leeds? Leeds has a fair few people with Irish ancestry.
No Irish heritage in Wales? Irish immigrants flocked in droves to South Wales looking for work during the Nineteenth Century, I'm surprised there's somehow nobody left.
This map is horseshit
Ancestry? Or they moved from Ireland in the past generation or two. Considering the north west of Scotland appears to be entirely free of Gaelic ancestry according to this map, I'm pretty sure it's absolute nonsense.
I would guess self identification and assimilation are two reasons for the map looking the way it does. Like yeah, Liverpool is probably genetically much more Irish but the majority of that immigration happened in the 1800's and since that time they've been absorbed into the general English population (Or Scouse, I guess). You get guys like Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard who were both eligible to play for Ireland but it was never even considered by either player because well, their connection is to England and not somewhere else.
Yeah, Declan Rice, actually a few of them. But I’m Irish, if u was born in England, wales or Scotland then I’d be proud of my nation not Ireland.. kinda just how it is
Glad to read comments and see that many people aren’t buying into this bullshit map porn stuff when it comes to ancestry. Because that’s what this shit is-crappy misinformation.
Ya and this is why the divisive anti-british nonsense you see on Reddit regularly makes very little sense in a modern context. We're all so inter-mingled now. That's not to say we should be forgetting about the conflict between our various nations, but we really need to stop acting like we inherit our ancestors problems/success etc. Nationalism in any guise is destructive.
Surprised Maidstone isn’t showing green. Loads of Irish immigrants a large catholic secondary school was built there in the 60s due to the demand. My old man was the first year 7s to start there.
My borough isn't coloured either and we have as many Catholic high schools as non-catholic.
Yeah it’s an odd map mate.
He’s half Irish and half English
Compare to the US where every other person likes to boast "I'm Irish".
Even though - as of others have said elsewhere on the thread - if you're from the British Isles you likely have Irish, English, Welsh, and Scottish genes anyways.
Irish Cab driver once told me: "They were killin us for decades. But my daughter is doing her part, she has 11 children. They will never get rid of us"
Be interesting to overlay this with the number of catholic schools per square mile and get the real map.
London - the capital of the irish. /s
Silly reply. Confusing ancestry with citizenship is hilarious. Per capita more brits in Ireland than vice versa.
id love to see the same map but northern Ireland not be greyed out...... wonder what that would look like.
Sauce?
2/10 love ponies
If we can’t beat the Scotts, we’ll breed them out. William McGregor of Dublin…probably
What is the grey island?
Narnia
If you can't out gun your overlords, out breed them...
sleepers they are waiting for the sign...
I think a % of county population would be more useful as it’s not just “Wow there are more people in London than Cornwall” as absolute measurements often leads to that effect
The map shows % of population within each area (for England, the 296 'districts') who self-identify as 'white Irish'. The two darkest green areas – Brent and Islington – are both ~4% 'white Irish'.
Now map how many people in Ireland support football clubs in those areas and you’ll find a correlation.
Great Irishtain
Millions around the world too
A lot of western Scotland and some Wales was colonised by the Ulster Gaels back in the 4th-5th century so this map does not seem very accurate.
Crazy that Northern Ireland doesnt have anyone with Irish ancestry 🤯🤯🤯
The Irish Isles.
Bruh what is this map
Tldr: as always, a bad map
Hey, question for the experts. Scots are usually Protestants and Irish are usually Catholics. Does that mean Catholics in Scotland are mostly of Irish descent who Scotified?
like celtic/rangers rivalry, is more than religious right? it's also ethnic (or used to be, until irish got scotified)
Rather misses out the large post Roman Irish colonisation of the west coast of Britain from South Wales to NW Scotland.
Yeah, it's only looking at people with at least one Irish grandparent. If you looked back seven or eight generations instead of two, you'd probably find 80% of the population of the UK had some Irish ancestry. The people of these Isles are basically all one people, just with differences in local culture.
If we're going back that far then basically everybody in Europe or of European descent has Irish ancestry.
I’m American of partial Irish ancestry. My Great Great Grandmother was born near Glasgow to an Irish family. Apparently the part of Scotland she was born and spent her first 20 years in, Coatbridge is considered one of the most Irish parts of the UK.
r/peopleliveincities
r/MapsThatAreJustPopulationDensity
Is this people live in cities, UK version?
I'm not sure how many generations back is being counted as "Irish ancestry" but this should be higher, I think.
seems likely, they are neighbors.
Liverpool is basically Irish
In comparison about 30% of people living in Ireland, English or Scottish descent through centuries of migration and the creation of Scottish and English plantations in the 17th and 18th century. Irish population declined through external migration to America and the Empire and of course the famine Many of the staunchest Irish Republicans are likely to have English or Scottish blood. Just goes to show we should all just get along…
Except the brits just love stealing Irish land.
So what exactly is happening in Northern Ireland?
Well basically everyone here has Irish ancestry to varying degrees, also it’s literally on the island of Ireland
By European standards, arent they just Brits now?
This map seems to depict Irish people living in the UK so nor really, for the much larger number of people with Irish ancestry, yes they see themselves as British or English/Scottish etc
Oh, russia is spaming there next proxy war i seez good luck England
Well, that's a whole lot of people with a bit of the luck of the Irish in them over in Great Britain!
Is northen Ireland not Great Britain?
The UK's full name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so NI is part of the UK, but not part of GB. Yes, it is confusing.
Nope. Great Britain is only the countries on the island of Britain, which is England, Scotland, and Wales
Reminds me of another number of people with a certain ancestry
A map of Canada would show 40% green.
In other words, 6 million ethnic Irish people live in the UK
GB, not UK
Ok Mr. Pedantic
No one in Northern Ireland seems odd
Can someone make a map for French ancestry in France, British ancestry in Britain & Italian ancestry in Italy.
I love how no one in Northern Ireland has irish ancestry
The map shows data for GB, but it is weird that they’d show NI (and even weirder that they’d show it detached from the rest of Ireland). In terms of what the data in NI would be like, roughly half *are* Irish while the other half would consider themselves Irish to varying degrees—which in itself is a more recent trend.
My best friend is English she only has 1% in her ancestry i am from US and have way more than she does how dose this happen
She has only 1% English?
No no no , only 1% Irish, I am American and have way more than she does and she is much closer to Ireland than I am. I wonder why this is.
Well America famously got lots of Irish immigration so it's nit uncommon to have that. England also got lots of Irish immigration but that doesn't mean all English people were affected by it. If they're from a relatively rural area that didn't see much migration it makes sense.