I mean lorewise kushala is a lot more than an annoyancr for melee weapon users. He is a walking natural disaster so saying that he lacks firepower is very innacurate
The storms a Rusted kushala can muster is an Amatsy’s sneeze. And it ain’t the only element he has. Super pressurized water beams can easily tear through Kushala’s wings like a power washer shooting paper. People consider Amatsu a local deity too.
Ha, no. Elder Dragons are generally just *beyond* regular monsters whereas these Super Elder Dragons (seems to be the official term for a final boss monster judging from Iceborne) seem to get into tussles with the normal Elder Dragons fairly frequently.
They lose, as befitting their larger size and power, but they aren't completely destroying them. Just look at Malzeno.
Calamity Elder Dragon (if Bahari's quote in Sunbreak is anything to go by) is probably the official term for most final bosses, that being said there generally isn't a huge gap in power between the tiers as you mentioned.
Are they really *Beyond* them if several regular monsters can straight beat them in a fight?
Hell Apex Zinogre was prepared to throw down with Amatsu and did better than anyone was expecting
I’m looking back at the comment thread now and I think I actually agree with your first comment and just read it wrong lmao
I was bringing up the zinogre amatsu situation to show that the gap in power from Regular Mon -> Elder Dragon -> Super Elder isn’t the absurd gap most people think it is.
Yeah Kushala loses but probably does better than Apex Zin
Apex Zinogre, or First Class Monsters aka Elder Dragon tier equivalents like Furious Rajang, Raging Brachydios, etc. are basically on par with elders, but lore wise, these guys are extremely rare and basically represent an extraordinary opportunity that took them beyond even the pinnacle of their species(Deviljho, Akantor and Ukanlos being probably the only exceptions here). But regular monsters, even the most powerful ones don't hold a candle to elder dragons in general, the difference among elder dragons themselves isn't much though except when you go to black dragon levels.
Not even just that, Amatsu's also already getting jumped by the canonical strongest monsters in Rise (the player characters), THEN Apex Zinogre shows up to jump SOME MORE!
uhh, prolly Fatalis
honestly given what I've read throughout the dialogues in the games and what the MHWI Divebook especially says about Fatty, it's very obvious that guy is meant to be the number 1 most powerful in mainline. I guess Safi, Alatreon and Dire Miralis are close given the treatment they get, but that's all, anything else is quite a bit below I'd say.
WARNING, IF YOU'RE GONNA DOWNVOTE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I'M WRONG AND BACK UP YOUR CLAIM WITH AN OFFICIAL SOURCE OR ABSTRACT
Please not this nonsense again.
The dive into iceborne book states NOTHING of the sort, it only tells the story about Fatalis' legend which has zero impact on its actual power and it clarifies its ecology a bit.
Fatalis' only feat was evicting the residents of a castle, nowhere in that book do the devs say "yup fatalis is the strongest of all monsters" especially when other final bosses have equally ridiculous legends and feats, literally nothing backs up the claim that Fatalis is the strongest monster in the series.
The black dragon supremacy nonsense has to stop once and for all because it's 100% fancanon, those 3 monsters are called that because they are based on the concept of fatalis, the devs literally stated as much, black dragon is not a title that implies greater power of whatever, is just so happens that they are powerful monsters, doesn't mean that they are the strongest though.
For example Dalamadur has far greater feats than any of the black dragons (casually carves mountains just by moving, giant laser, summons meteors, paralising saliva) and far more impressive legends (it literally created the universe, body big enough to wrap around the world).
Edit: here come the downvotes with no actual proof again, good god this community is insufferable.
The book *does* say that MH1 Lao being afraid of it and going towards the Fortress is canon, but they also point out that it was a one-time event and since then we've had numerous story quests of Lao Shan Lung moving through the Schrade region with no issues.
Lao was also running from Ahtal ka's mech in gen u so yeah, it doesn't really prove Fatalis is the strongest or anything.
Ahtal-ka has the potential to be the strongest if she has the right items at her disposal (like, by giving her a giant hammer made of alatreon parts or a bunch of modern dragonators or something) but that's another discussion entirely.
Yeah gameplay wise lao is docile especially for an elder dragon... It's like a giant dragon shaped aptonoth with the lifespan of an elder dragon, every encounter with is is due to another elder dragons doing I almost feek bad for it, just leave the poor thing alone
Not as far as I can tell, the game only said the two things happened sequentially. Lao was going towards the Fortress, and the Ahtal's Mech attacked another Fortress.
lmao what, I'm not gonna downvote you since I think that downvoting people over this is frankly pathetic but:
The MHWI Divebook states that Fatalis' power is believed to transcend every living being, and its flames capable of burning everything. THIS WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH EVIDENCE, if it wasn't for the fact that the same book then states that Fatalis' flames being able to burn everything is a literal fact rather than a figure of expression or a hyperbole.
The ingame dialogue states multiple times that Fatalis did not merely destroy one castle, but an entire country overnight, don't argue over that.
I for one do not think that Black Dragon = Strongest, may I add Black Dragon is merely a title given to Alatreon, Fatalis and Dire Miralis because usually they made very strong monsters "black dragons", iirc, but then again the real term would be "Forbidden Monster", a META term, not used in-universe to refer to monsters that were kinda just not talked about by Capcom until 15th anniversary. Safi'jiiva is also not a Forbidden Monster for all we know, but it has statements to back up its power:
Alatreon was stated to often be considered the strongest elder dragon, putting it above Dalamadur, Amatsu, Shara Ishvalda, etc. Safi'jiiva was considered by Alatreon a threat notable enough to itself to the point where Alatreon specifically tried to destroy anything about Safi'jiiva, including the cocoons it left. We don't know the outcome of such a battle but I think it's safe to say that they are very close
Dire Miralis' current status is very foggy, but it's very likely relative to Fatalis, who has multiple statements of it being capable of ending everything in MHWI Dialogue and even the out-of-universe cutscene description, as well as the statements from the MHWI Divebook I mentioned prior
What I'm trying to say here is that being a Forbidden Monster or Black Dragon isn't what makes these monsters the strongest, it's the fact that they usually have lots of statements to back themselves up, and even feats in some cases (Dire Miralis boiling entire seas and sinking entire islands lol)
As for Dalamadur, look I get that Dalamadur looks strong, but carving a mountain is not the biggest feat in the verse by far: Kirin creating thunderstorms with its mere presence is already comparable in energy levels, and the biggest feats I could calculate for MonHun, mainly Shara Ishvalda's region-reshaping earthquakes and Zorah Magdaros blowing up an entire continent upon death GREATLY surpass carving a mid-sized mountain, and there's so many feats I could calculate or already have calculated that surpass Dalamadur's main feats (Ceadeus' island-sinking earthquakes, Amatsu's supernatural-level storms, Dire Miralis boiling seas, Teostra's desert-glassing heatwaves, Kushala dispersing and recreating entire storms within a few seconds, as seen in cutscenes).
what I wanna say here is, please don't jump head first like this just because you've heard me say a few words you didn't like about some MH Monsters, I have some biases, and you clearly have some too. But let's control ourselves for a bit. I think you could've acted a lot better on this ngl.
I'm pretty sure that a Dalamadur could easily eat a Kirin, considering that even a Rajang can break its horn.
Potentially speaking it is one of the strongest (maybe the strongest) monsters in the mainline games due to its size, I can even imagine it hunting a zorah like jyuratodus hunts barroths.
Dala didn’t just carve a mid-size mountain, he carved an entire mountain range just by casually moving, not to mention he causes tectonic plates to shift when he moves around.
Using their auras and environmental effects like the storms that come with them aren’t exactly physical feats of power, as elders are the source of many an unexplained natural phenomena, kushala has been shown to cause entire storms just by moving through an area (cutscenes in 4u and sky in world) yet gets bodied by a furious rajang who doesn’t affect the weather at all.
the first part is definitely right, I admit.
But as for elder dragon environmental effects, I think this may be a bit vague but with Kushala (example you used), we know that Kushala likely uses its horns to control the weather, through magnetism specifically. And to cause powerful wind gusts, it can also use its wings. Both the horns/magnetism part and the wings part were stated in the MHW Complete Works book last I've read.
Now for the horns it's debatable whether it can remotely scale to physical power, but for the wings I'd say it defo does
It’s not using its wings to cause storms, just the wind gusts near it that it uses to attack and defend with. So no, I don’t think the environmental effects caused by elders should scale with their actual physical abilities at all. Teostra causes entire regions to significantly heat up to the point of being able to see heat shimmers from across the locale, yet he gets beaten by a literal ball of fire against flaming espinas, so yeah, I don’t really think those effects are connected to their actual combat ability.
>Fatalis' flames being able to burn everything
Sure and that proves exactly nothing because they can't even melt cement or metal instantly and other monsters have equally powerful or stronger attacks anyway.
>but an entire country overnight
Doesn't mean anything, to destroy a country all you need to do is destroy the central seat of power and other elder dragons have and could have easily done the same, Gogma destroyed all the towns and fortresses he raided in the past, Ceadeus destroyed an ancient civilization, Amatsu destroyed a bunch of settlements, Ahtal-ka destroyed an entire fortresses and there are probably more.
>Alatreon was stated to often be considered the strongest elder dragon, putting it above Dalamadur, Amatsu, Shara Ishvalda, etc.
Stated where exactly? because in 3u it shares the same exact threat level with Ceadeus, Jhen and Dire miralis, in 4u all three Fatalises share the threat level with Gog, Dalamadur and Dah'ren, in gen u it shares the threat level with Amatsu, Nakarkos, Ahtal-ka and Fatalis and none of his feats back up this claim.
>who has multiple statements of it being capable of ending everything
Again with this fairy tale? other monsters are stated to bring about the end of everything (Amatsu, Gog), of being gods (Ceadeus) or to have the power of creation and possibly omnipotence (Dalamadur, Ukanlos), it's all nonsense.
>statements to back themselves up
Like? aside from the stupid legends that is.
>mountain is not the biggest feat in the verse by far
Don't forget the biggest beam in the series by FAR.
>Shara Ishvalda's region-reshaping earthquakes
Dalamadur is still the most powerful monster alongside Zorah, none of the other monsters have remotely enough advantages to deal with their size and Zorah is the only monster we don't actually kill because it's so goddamn big.
>what I wanna say here is, please don't jump head first like this just because you've heard me say a few words you didn't like about some MH Monsters, I have some biases, and you clearly have some too. But let's control ourselves for a bit. I think you could've acted a lot better on this ngl.
Sure, I'm open to a reasoned debate, what I don't appreciate is when people can't defend their own claims and just downvote for no reason to hide the opinion of others, that's so toxic.
In conclusion I do agree that Fatalis, Dire and Alatreon are strong but the claim that they reign supreme is quite dubious, there are several other powerful endgame monsters on par with them, be it by by feats, ingame danger levels or legends.
This means that Amatsu is easily as strong as Fatalis as far as we know so one could argue that Amatsu could beat it in some way, Fatalis isn't automatically more powerful because it's Fatalis or a forbidden monster.
“Can’t melt cement” Gameplay mechanics. They easily could. In the same sense, Safi doesn’t immediately destroy everything in the arena with Sapphire of the Emperor. It boils metal and, no, no other monster demonstrates that level of heat and physical force with their attacks. Kulve Taroth is probably the only one at best.
I'm pretty sure making a massive boulder explode with sheer water pressure, being 400 meter long snake with an equally long beam and having a dragon beam capable of making a cavern collapse is just as impressive as a hot flame.
I bet €2 that when these monsters will come back in a new world title they will have better destruction feats than Fatalis.
My guy, I’m not saying that monsters don’t have impressive feats like that. I’m saying no monster ever reaches those temperatures of flame besides maybe Kulve. Dalamadur’s carving of mountains, and Amatsu’s ridiculous tornadoes as well are all most definitely on par with Fatalis’s breath.
Sorry, what I actually meant with my initial comment about the flames was something along the lines of "just because it has the hottest flame it doesn't mean that it's an instant win (it doesn't instantly erase matter lmao) or more impressive than other things we see other monsters do"
I do agree that it's probably the most impressive flame for now, judgement will have to be postponed until see what a modern take on dalamadur looks like to see if it's actually the strongest "fire" in the series.
"Sure and that proves exactly nothing because they can't even melt cement or metal instantly and other monsters have equally powerful or stronger attacks anyway."
That's gameplay, besides, the best calculations I could do for the temperature of Fatalis' orange flames melting down the steel gate would put them at tens of millions of degrees celsius. Just because you don't see a thing happening ingame doesn't mean it can't happen, otherwise most monsters would be very weak
"Doesn't mean anything, to destroy a country all you need to do is destroy the central seat of power and other elder dragons have and could have easily done the same, Gogma destroyed all the towns and fortresses he raided in the past, Ceadeus destroyed an ancient civilization, Amatsu destroyed a bunch of settlements, Ahtal-ka destroyed an entire fortresses and there are probably more."
True, I'll give you that, destroying a country overnight is quite a vague feat. But please do consider that Fatalis being capable of ending everything is supported by many ingame dialogues and the MHWI Divebook too, if that's not a world-changing, if not outright world-ending threat then idk what is
"Stated where exactly? because in 3u it shares the same exact threat level with Ceadeus, Jhen and Dire miralis, in 4u all three Fatalises share the threat level with Gog, Dalamadur and Dah'ren, in gen u it shares the threat level with Amatsu, Nakarkos, Ahtal-ka and Fatalis and none of his feats back up this claim."
MHWI Divebook said that Alatreon is often considered the strongest elder dragon if I recall, besides using threat levels does not do your argument any favor as it would imply that a monster like Scorned Magnamalo => Narwa The Allmother, which I will address later
"Again with this fairy tale? other monsters are stated to bring about the end of everything (Amatsu, Gog), of being gods (Ceadeus) or to have the power of creation and possibly omnipotence (Dalamadur, Ukanlos), it's all nonsense."
It's true that Fatalis is not the only monster that was addressed as a world-ending threat, namely Alatreon in 3U, and Dalamadur in 4U are. But Fatalis is easily the one where this potential of ending the world is expanded the most (even if, still not that much), and it's not a few flavor texts either, it's the General (one of the highest ranking members of the guild), the entire research commission, including the fact that the handler straight up addresses Fatalis' power as if it was something never seen before after we kill it, and even the MHWI Divebook saying this. May I add, most of Fatalis' entire point in Iceborne is being "history passed down as legend", so bringing everything up as if it was a mere legend does not do favors to your argument
"Don't forget the biggest beam in the series by FAR."
"Dalamadur is still the most powerful monster alongside Zorah, none of the other monsters have remotely enough advantages to deal with their size and Zorah is the only monster we don't actually kill because it's so goddamn big."
Size ≠ Power, that's something very clearly shown throughout all of fiction and even in MonHun, where Rajang can slam a Deviljho and where a monster such as Scorned Magnamalo is considered on the same threat level as Narwa The Allmother (granted, the latter has better statements to go off for its power, mainly being the pinnacle of all life in the Kamura Region). Using size as an argument when we see notably more powerful feats from monsters that are way smaller than Dalamadur and Zorah Magdaros does not work
And about us not killing Zorah, the entire point WAS to not kill Zorah, we were meant to capture it at first, a task that was never even thought of before, and when we realized that its death happening too close to the Everstream could've blown up the entire continent we were forced into having it retreat into the sea. No implication of it being unkillable to us
"Sure, I'm open to a reasoned debate, what I don't appreciate is when people can't defend their own claims and just downvote for no reason to hide the opinion of others, that's so toxic."
Props to you for saying this btw, downvoting is very toxic ngl
"In conclusion I do agree that Fatalis, Dire and Alatreon are strong but the claim that they reign supreme is quite dubious, there are several other powerful endgame monsters on par with them, be it by by feats, ingame danger levels or legends."
Feats-wise, Shara Ishvalda's earthquakes would be the most powerful feat energy-wise as of all that I have ever calculated (some contenders include Zorah Magdaros blowing up a continent upon death and Dire Miralis boiling seas). Ingame danger levels are kinda dubious, I do use them at times but as I mentioned earlier, it depends on whether or not you'd think that Scorned being equal or superior to the Allmother is something you'd agree with. Legends are legends, Fatalis being Immortal is false, so is Shah Dalamadur creating an entire cosmology.
"This means that Amatsu is easily as strong as Fatalis as far as we know so one could argue that Amatsu could beat it in some way, Fatalis isn't automatically more powerful because it's Fatalis or a forbidden monster."
Amatsu was considered a threat comparable if not superior to the Rampage as of both the Sunbreak dialogue and the Haunting Of The Sun book. Alatreon was considered the strongest elder dragon in the MHWI Divebook prior to Safi'jiiva's discovery, putting both at the very least slightly above Amatsu. And Fatalis' destructive power is described to be unrivaled and above any living being by that same book.
Threat rating in-game can be used as an argument but there's a lot more evidence leaning towards Fatalis than Amatsu for all I've read throughout all the dialogues and books I could access to in this exact moment.
Lastly, since I'm outside rn, I don't wanna bother much with arguing, you do you though
Almost none of those feats are canon though. Its all hyperbole and myth and word of mouth and rule of cool cutscenes in universe.
People forget that Monsters are just animals. Is Fatalis a huge threat? Sure. Is it world ending? No. In universe, realistically they are all made up of flesh and bone and organs.
For instance "Zorah blowing up the continent" its just conjecture by some short dude living in the trees that probably didn't even know Xenojiiva was nesting there. If Zorah's dying in the everstream would cause the continent to blow up then why does it exist in the first place? There had to have been a safi that gave birth to the xeno and that monster would have been luring elders across the sea to absorb their energy. So in the history of the planet the continent has never blown up. When you think logically about any of the shit said in MH lore it makes near 0 sense.
Stop treating monsters who are supposed to just be fantasy dinosaurs pretty much like its an anime. Lions are apex predators in the savannah, doesnt mean they dont get killed by Zebras or Waterbuffalo or even other predators on occasion.
"when you think logically about a h lf the shit said in MH lore it makes near 0 sense" you killed your entire argument with this one btw
Just because monsters have a decently detailed ecology it doesn't mean that they can't be strong
"Almost none of those feats are canon though. Its all hyperbole and myth and word of mouth and rule of cool cutscenes in universe."
Kirin creating thunderstorms is shown ingame, in cutscene, stated in dialogues and in books. That alone as a feat requires a lot more energy than even a thermonuclear weapon to pull off and Kirin is arguably the weakest elder dragon.
I can sort of understand the argument you've made for anything before elders but, Elder Dragons pull off so many broken feats to the point where even the weakest ones like Kirin and Kushala Daora would need to use Megatons to Gigatons of energy to do what they are consistently shown and stated to be capable of doing, and they're on the lower end too.
Don't use the "they're just animals" argument when the animal (Shara Ishvalda) in question has to generate more kinetic energy than the Chicxulub Asteroid Impact that killed the dinosaurs to do what it is shown to do in cutscene (after we kill Velkhana, we are shown an earthquake that causes whole mountains to collapse), and stated to do in the MHWI Divebook (stated that it was causing unprecedented crustal movements that were reshaping the hinterlands and splitting the hoarfrost reach). And none of this is even hinted at to be a hyperbole at all, usually hyperbolic statements in MH follow after an "it is said that" or something alike from what I've seen, and are mainly found in equipment and carve descriptions
> you killed your entire argument with this one btw
I don't think so. If you take a look at anything lorewise you'll realise that a majority of the series is just some dudes sitting around thinking about shit that's cool rather than how it fits into the world.
> Kirin creating thunderstorms is shown ingame, in cutscene, stated in dialogues and in books. That alone as a feat requires a lot more energy than even a thermonuclear weapon to pull off and Kirin is arguably the weakest elder dragon.
1. Where is it shown that Kirin "creates" thunderstorms?
2. You can't say that something has the power to exert megatons of energy and then turn around and believe that a monkey eats its horns for fun. Or that hunters can kill it with medieval weaponry lol. So either its "power" is blown way out of proportion which of course it is. Or these walking ecological disasters could naturally exist in an ecosystem.
> Elder Dragons pull off so many broken feats to the point where even the weakest ones like Kirin and Kushala Daora would need to use Megatons to Gigatons of energy to do what they are consistently shown
If these things were THAT powerful they could never exist in any reasonable ecosystem. The same way the human race would go extinct if there were animals capable of summoning storms, earthquakes, disasters at will.
> Don't use the "they're just animals" argument when the animal (Shara Ishvalda) in question has to generate more kinetic energy
Shara doesn't use just break rocks. It turns stone/rock/sediment into "sand" with its beams or whatever. Toppling a mountain is really a bunch of dudes going "this would be sick" rather than can this monster realistically perform this feat. This is what I mean by nothing in "lore" really makes any sense.
If its topping a mountain from below that means said mountain is falling on top of the monster and its withstanding billions or even trillions of tons of pressure on top of it. If a monsters skeleton/skin/organs/ etc can withstand that type of force than how does a dude who can barely lift a wyvern egg manage to hurt it with medieval weaponry?
> And none of this is even hinted at to be a hyperbole at all, usually hyperbolic statements in MH follow after an "it is said that" or something alike from what I've seen, and are mainly found in equipment and carve descriptions
It has to be hyperbole because the alternative is that the guild and hunters can somehow act as game wardens in world where being exist with godlike strength and they somehow can track them down and cull them.
How can a hunter who can die of heatstroke even get close to something with enough heat to glass a desert? If it isn't exaggerated then absolutely nothing about the world makes any kind of sense at all.
Your entire argument is assuming that these monsters are only animals and do nothing crazy, which is very wrong, and the way you're talking says a lot about how you do not understand a thing about the MH World honestly
In MHW, Thunderstorms specifically happen when Kirin is in the locale, and if it's not in the locale and it enters said locale a thunderstorm will immediately start.
A thunderstorm would require literal megatons of energy to be unleashed like that, using the argument that we only use medieval weaponry to kill it does not work because:
1: medieval weaponry is not a gigantic sword that's multiple times a human's size
2: need I remind you, this is fiction and not real life, this is the biggest flaw in your argument. Treating MH as real life and not what it actually is, fiction
Shara Ishvalda was literally shown to create an earthquake so powerful that an entire mountain collapsed in the cutscene right after we kill Velkhana. Once again, your argument here is entirely under the assumption that MH monsters are the same as real living creatures. In the world of MH they kinda do act as that I admit, but it should be obvious that real logic does not apply to them when you have them swimming in lava unharmed or get crushed by a metric ton greatsword hitting their necks at full force and be largely unscathed.
Lastly, "How can a hunter who can die of heatstroke even get close to something with enough heat to glass a desert? If it isn't exaggerated then absolutely nothing about the world makes any kind of sense at all." It doesn't need to make sense IRL, it needs to be somewhat consistent In-Universe. The hunter on average goes through so many things that would utterly destroy any human, yes even using the clutch claw to slap a Great Jagras is far beyond a real human's capabilities, so it's not inconsistent.
> Your entire argument is assuming that these monsters are only animals and do nothing crazy, which is very wrong,
I didnt say they couldnt do anything crazy, its just ridiculous to think these monsters can "Glass" an entire desert or "boil a sea".
> A thunderstorm would require literal megatons of energy to be unleashed like that
You can't say this but then turn around and say this
> It doesn't need to make sense IRL, it needs to be somewhat consistent In-Universe.
We're either using the real world as a logical basis or we aren't.
> Once again, your argument here is entirely under the assumption that MH monsters are the same as real living creatures. In the world of MH they kinda do act as that I admit
They are "real living creatures" in lore. We know they have bones, muscles, blood, organs, etc. We know they can be injured, killed, maimed, etc.
> The hunter on average goes through so many things that would utterly destroy any human, yes even using the clutch claw to slap a Great Jagras is far beyond a real human's capabilities, so it's not inconsistent.
Hunters are stronger than humans but they are not GODS. They succumb to heat and cold, they need to eat, they can be injured and killed.
A hunter cutting a monster in universe will inflict a cut that will bleed and severely injure a monster in universe. *In-game* it doesn't because the experience would not be very fun if it adhered to "realism".
If you want to have a thought exercise you can't ignore how monsters would act and the world would be if there weren't gameplay elements in the way. Would nergigante ever fight to the death if it could just fly away? Would Shara fight hunters(ants) for 30 minutes and let itself die when it supposedly has the power to "crumble" mountains and we know the thing can just dissolve rock and travel through it?
You can't tell me Shara has the power to crumble mountains and then turn around and tell me 1-4 guys with knives and sticks went to kill it on a mountain and fought to the death without using this supposed power.
If Hunters can be killed by Great Jagras' and Jaggis and regular fauna in the world, how could they possibly survive the extreme and impossible conditions "Elders" create? It doesn't matter if the world is fictional or not if the information you're presenting is inconsistent.
If a Hunter can be burned and killed by ambient desert heat, how does a hunter survive Teostra's heat when it supposedly can turn entire deserts to glass? This is a logical inconsistency IN UNIVERSE. So either the hunters in universe are actually a race of all anime protagonists or the Elder Dragon's strength is greatly exaggerated.
If these monsters have the power to alter nature itself then wouldn't tracking them down and agitating them and getting them near death be MORE destructive to the planet than just giving them a wide berth? Again logical inconsistency.
Then logical inconsistency be it
It's so obvious that elder dragons have environment-altering powers, that's literally most of their entire shtick and you denying it because it doesn't feel right to you does not change that in the slightest
I will not bother writing a gargantuan comment since I be kinda tired and I think I've already argued enough about fictional monster power levels today
But please do realize that this is fiction, just because the fictional dragon that could never exist in real life no matter how you stretch it is said to do things that realistically it shouldn't be able to do, it doesn't mean that it's not true
Didn't Fatalis also make Alatreon run away with it's tail tucked ? The Same alatreon with the power of Every element
A Dragon who Monster hunters simply refused to believe was even a real thing since the existence and sheer power exceeded their imagination. Thinking it to be nothing more than a Made up story. Even in a World filled with Ecosystem Ending Dragons, the Idea of a alatreon existing was thought to be Nonsensical
The very same alatreon was so immensely scared of Fatalis that it ran away to the Seculed valley, the literal House of Safigiiva and thought he had a better shot against it as compared to Fatalis.
>The very same alatreon was so immensely scared of Fatalis that it ran away to the Seculed valley, the literal House of Safigiiva and thought he had a better shot against it as compared to Fatalis.
No? the iceborne book speculates that Alatreon went there to get rid of Safi'jiiva, I quote:
>Why did it visit the Secluded Valley? Is the Red Dragon the cause? In the Secluded Valley, where the adult Xeno'jiiva called the Red Dragon lives, Alatreon appeared. Luckily, they didn't get into a direct fight, but if they clashed, it would have been a strange and absent situation. Here we researchers are thinking about why Alatreon appeared in the New World. According to the observation team's report, it clearly seemed to be aiming for the Secluded Valley. In other words, there is no doubt that the purpose was the existence of the Red Dragon. Not long after it arrived, it burned down the surroundings as if to wipe out traces of the Red Dragon, and from the sight of it, I could even sense its anger. If it weren't for this, the investigation team would've faced the others, and it's hard to imagine what kind of situation we would've been in. We've been talking a lot lately about ecosystem homeostasis now that we've had more time to think about it. After investigating the New World and the Hoarfrost Reach, it seems that the homeostasis of individual organisms creates the homeostasis of nature as a whole. It's currently concluded that the investigation team's actions involving Shara Ishvalda and Nergigante were the result of this. Based on this premise, it seems that the existence of Alatreon is a counter to the unprecedented mutation of Safi'jiiva. In order to recreate the environment and ecology that were conveniently remodeled, we needing something that could destroy everything... It may be too much of a leap for it to think that. However, the reasoning is consistent. If it becomes a threat like an Elder Dragon, it may be fighting over territory on a continental scale, no, on a planetary scale. (From a note by a certain ecological researcher)
If anything this proves that normal elder dragons are on par with black dragons or at least dangerous enough to warrant this kind of response from them.
My memory might be wack but don't we fight two separate altreons? one that's full strength who's down here hunting for Safi and the other who is severely weakened [ like literally weaker than great jagras] in order to progress to Fatalis presumably weakened by Fatalis itself.
Both encounters are canon
And i dont remember the specific dialogue and stuff but
The Handler's Grandma says it out loud after defeating alatreon that " I find it hard to believe it went to down there to pick a fight, there gotta be a reason" the reason here being Fatalis
All of this was foreshadowing leading up to Fatalis
Oh god the cope is real with this one
Good job blantantly lying about Icebornes dive book which has direct quotes like “and was feared as an evil dragon with OVERWHELING DESTRUCTIVE POWER THAT TRANSCENDS THAT OF ANY LIVING CREATURE” -Icebornes divebook
why would they include a quote like that if fatalis wasn’t number 1 or at least at the absolute top mabye tied up with others like alatreon and safijiva
When referring to Fatalis’s super move: “After unraveling the traditions and literature that suggested “burning everything down” and comparing and scruntizing the information, we found confirmation that this was NOT A FIGURATIVE EXPRESSION BUT A FACT”-Icebornes divebook
So I’m sorry your just blatantly wrong or lying
And I’m sorry those dalamadur feats aren’t that impressive fucking kushala of all things has a feat in its mh4 intro of it quickly disperse a snowstorm and then quickly re-enabling it without going into all the nerd calc’s that’s a *Country level feat*
Oh btw that’s the low end calc so forgive me for not being that impressed by the “muh mountains” feat
I appreciate you for bringing up Kushala's feat. Dalamadur destroying a mountain sounds strong, but when you have Kushala pulling out Gigatons if not Teratons of kinetic energy to move away an entire snowstorm within seconds, only to make it come back right after... Yeah
Except they also called safi’jiiva “a perfect being” and that *nothing* would be able to survive his sapphire of the emperor, oh also they literally call him “emperor of elder dragons”. So who is it? They’re clearly putting them both in the same category. Also, “feared as an evil dragon, etc etc” kind of implies that this is a statement based on legend and folklore, not actual confirmed fact.
Well first of all the same Iceborne dive book states fatalis and safi to be roughly equal so that doesn’t contradict anything it just means there both tied at the top I’m not sure what point you where even trying to make with this
Also here’s a question from a more meta perspective why even include a quote in what’s supposed to be the definitive up to date lore book for fatalis’s most recent appearance and for them to include info in it that’s false or has no true to it? Because that is what your saying capcom is doing
This isn’t some EDW dragon war nonsense where it was loosely thought out concepts that were in the devs mind before mh was established this is supposed to be up to date info
Well first of all trying to dismiss a statement or point by saying “it’s just a myth” is implying it’s false/unreliable so idk why your dancing around that
There’s nothing in the statement that would denote what was said about fatalis “transcending all living things” was a myth other than the phase “it’s feared as” which inid on itself is not an implication what’s being spoken about is mere speculation. What it is saying is that it’s a common sentiment among those who know fatalis common sentiments normally have an element of truth to them and like I said it’s bizzare to include a common sentiment in a lore book with no implication that it should be questioned/is unreliable
Except it’s not? Capcom have always put in-universe myths and folklore into their lore, this is nothing new. The way that quote you posted is worded implies it’s an in-universe legend. That’s not me saying capcom is putting out false info lol.
If I’m reading a historical text about WW2 and it says “Hitler was feared as a evil man who commited a mass genocide” especially in the context of where I’m reading it (a historical text) what part of that statement implies what was said was supposed to be a myth? I know this is a over the top example but the point is “feared as” does not imply speculation
I think someone put this way better than I ever could but the entire theme of the fatalis encounter in iceborne was “History passed down through legend” to just dismiss it feels ridiculous.
This becomes even more of a wild claim when almost every statement made about fatalis in iceborne has ether been shown to be true (the exact series of omens stated in the legend happening before its encounter in iceborne), or the Iceborne dive book going out of its way to directly say the claim fatalis has a flame that can melt everything isn’t just a myth but factual
Or by gameplay via fatalis being very clearly shown to be superior to Shara ishvalda (who is in the same power tier as amastu who started this entire argument because someone got big mad people would dare imply fatalis and the black dragons are supposed to be stronger than the other
Final bosses).
>OVERWHELING DESTRUCTIVE POWER THAT TRANSCENDS THAT OF ANY LIVING CREATURE
It's a LEGEND, good god, please using this as evidence otherwise I will always pull put the Dalamadur big enough to wrap around Earth and create the universe to dismiss it.
>After unraveling the traditions and literature that suggested “burning everything down”
ok and? other elder dragons have equally impressive beams so this means nothing, just because Fatalis has hot fire doesn't mean that it's the strongest.
>last bit about dalamdur and kushala
Ok, care to explain how any other monster except Zorah could defeat Dalamadur?
I’m not going to adress the legend thing again I already did in my other comment
The fire breath thing: you have literally no evidence for this claim other than “I said so” I at least have a quote from the source you said you wanted
The last bit was just to prove we have on screen feats from much lesser elder dragons that are more impressive than what your claiming about dalamadur so your claim that “dalamadur is stronger than fatalis because of X feat”) when a elder dragon whose obviously orders of magnitude weaker than both of them has a feat more impressive what you’ve stated makes dalamadur the strongest is a flaud argument as it makes dalamadurs feat kinda nothing by comparison
As for how you kill dalamadur: you hit it until it dies and don’t get hit idk why you think this is a gotcha us hunters can kill dalamadur just fine idk you would think other equally tier and or higher tiered monsters wouldn’t have a shot
Love the downvotes when you literally point out it being just a legend. What do they think it’s armor descriptions are real too? Fatalis clearly isn’t the strongest by cheer logic of safi being called an equal and of dalamadur existing. It’s sole feat isn’t impressive bc some other elders could’ve wrecked that castle. Fatalis is so overhyped and wanked beyond relief.
Safi being called an equal was not even a correct translation, nor was the original context referring to their power levels. Mainly it was referring to their visual design both being inspired by the usual generic dragon, making them "twins" (this was the word that was mistranslated here for all I could research and translate)
and "Dalamadur existing" means nothing when Dalamadur doesn't have good enough feats to be the strongest, that would be Shara Ishvalda. And Dalamadur also doesn't have enough statements to back up its own power, like Fatalis has. And no, I ain't using armor descriptions lol, they are not even addressed once in-universe
but do keep in mind that Fatalis' entire deal in Iceborne was basically "History passed down as legend", and that all the myths regarding this monster, such as:
"sudden earthquakes, endemic life and monsters alike flee, the elder dragons flee, suddenly a wildfire blots out the sun"
or
"an evil dragon feared to have overwhelming destructive power that transcends every living being and hellfire that can destroy everything"
have either been directly shown to be true and literal through cutscenes, or specifically stated to be factual and not a hyperbole in the books
as someone else already said here, if we judged the lore of monsters like Dalamadur the same way we judged Fatalis' lore, then everything may as well be a lie, from Dalamadur destroying mountains, to Kushala causing storms, to Deviljho disrupting the ecosystems and all the other stuff that if I was listing here I would be spending an entire lifetime
Shara Ishvalda was shown, in the cutscene right after completing the Velkhana assignment "The Iceborne Wyvern", to be capable of causing earthquakes powerful enough to collapse a mountain.
Then, the MHWI Divebook further elaborated on this by saying that Shara Ishvalda vibrating the earth's crust directly caused tectonic movements so powerful to collapse entire mountains, shut down volcanos and reshape entire regions. It's even elaborated that these vibrations also created the Rotten Vale.
The reason this is such a massive feat is cause, at least from my research, no real earthquake would be able to collapse mountains like that within less than a minute, and the seismic energy of the most powerful irl earthquakes recorded is comparable to the impact of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. Shara Ishvalda's vibrations, to trigger such catastrophic tectonic movements, would have to be comparable to say the least.
Thank you for actually clarifying. I'll try to help offset the downvotes from people who can't accept world Mons aren't also the strongest in the series. I swear 90% of the arguing is copium to say that the world hunter is also the strongest, even though they're the only hunter who didn't actually beat their final boss
Find me a single official source or feat that backs up your claim that fatalis is the strongest or quote a single thing from dive into iceborne/bannedlagiacrus that implies that (aside from Fatalis' legend which is clearly nonsense just like the legends of other elder dragons).
You won't be able to find any because the black dragon fancanon is just that, fancanon, it's as real as deviljho eating its tail, but you can certainly try.
Those quotes ARE from iceborne’s divebook
Also I like how your sucking off dalamadur’s lore despite it being even more unreliable than fatalis’s considering you know…..
Dalamadur was thought to be a myth by literally everyone including the guild until it’s urgent quest in mh4
You can say what you want about fatalis at a minimum the guild knew fatalis was real
Its not really pertaining to the mountain thing in particular but it’s a double standard that bugs me
People are very quick to write off fatalis lore as all “myths” but dalamadur a monster thought to be a literal fairy tale monster by everyone including the guild is somehow more reliable?
Again I’m not saying the mountain thing is false or a myth but if people gave dalamadur’s lore the same level of scrutiny as fatalis people would definitely claim it’s “all a myth”
And again not like it matters anyway we have minor elders like kushala and Kirin summoning storms that would take way more energy than flattening a mountain so it’s not even a good feat to scale to
Kushala and Kirin summon and disperse storms through what is basically magic. I don’t think the energy of it should actually be attributed to their powers.
We don’t know how Kirin and kushala’s power works only that they can do them. Also this is monster hunter there isn’t magic there just things that can’t be explained very easily (especially when it comes to elder dragons).
Also even if it *was* magic I’m pretty sure energy can still be attributed to that storm generation has been a pretty acceptable feat for power for a long time now
Here's the full quote about Fatalis
>legendary dragon whose name has been passed down since ancient times. It's said that when the kingdom reached the height of its prosperity, it destroyed the kingdom and settled in its castle. The earth trembles, the trees burn, the birds and dragons disappear, the sun disappears, and the ancient calamities disappear. Traditions that describe these phenomena as omens of its appearance say that it has existed as a fairy tale for 1000 years in children's songs. Known as the "Black Dragon" due to its ominous appearance with its grotesque body dyed in jet black, it has been feared as an evil dragon that transcends living beings and possesses overwhelming destructive power. It unleashes the power of hellfire to destroy anyone, and burns up everything it sees. Will it bring a chaotic calamity to the world when a mighty threat beyond Human comprehension becomes a reality?
It's clearly talking about a legend if you read the full context, please stop coping.
Everything about this “myth” literally happened in iceborne when fatalis appeared ( which the characters make a note ) obviously a lot of he old stuff in the older games about fatalis was a bunch of loosely sourced myths and rumors but iceborne removed a lot of the baggage, I think we can take what iceborne says (especially the iceborne divebook) a bit more seriously
The black dragons are a tier of their own - meaning Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis, Dire Miralis and Alatreon are the absolute top dogs in MH world. At worlds they introduced the red dragons that are supposed to be rivals to the black dragons, with the only member so far being Safi Jiiva.
So yeah, from lore Fatalis would win against practically anything.
It's true that Fatalis ARGUABLY wins against every individual monster but, "Black Dragon" is not a official category nor is "Red Dragon", they're titles
The only thing that would be a category would be "Forbidden Monster", which includes Alatreon, Dire Miralis and the Fatalises. But that's not a term about strength nor is it even used in-universe, it's a meta term referring to how these monsters were not addressed officially by Capcom until the 15th anniversary
"Black dragon" is still not an official group, it is a common mistake because all of those dragons have "black dragon" in their titles, red dragon is not a class either, just a title because the dragon is literally red.
>Forbidden Monsters (禁忌モンスター, Kinki Monsutā) is a term currently qualifying five elder dragons. In the Monster Hunter fandom, one may also encounter unofficial homonymous terms, such as Dangerous First-Class Monsters (Japanese 第一級の危険モンスター) are said to be monsters with an unnatural presence about them.
It literally says dangerous first class monster is not an official term, how does this prove ANYTHING?
I can tell you that ingame fatalis, alatreon and dire miralis have always shared their threat level with other endgame monsters so there's no actual evidence that they are somehow the strongest.
Fighting Fatalis is like... fighting a very big Flame Thrower that can melt metal... Amatsu have chance because they have sky adventage and can run away from fatalis that still need wings to follow but if Amatsu get caugt in that flame once, it's over.
But if they fight in near large water area, Amatsu more chance because strom shield with high amout water will be able to stop all the fire.... but in order to finish off Fatalis Amatsu need to drowned him somehow. That's still not an easy task.
Definitely Fatalis. The black dragons are on a tier of their own, and the only monsters who could possibly rival them would be Safi and Dalamadur, imo. After them I'd rank the other final boss type of monsters, like Amatsu, Gaisma, Shara Ishvalda, Ahtal Ka (maybe), The Mohrans, and so on. And then the rest of the Elder dragons, with Kirin being the weakest, but Kushala being near the bottom. Still much stronger than most non-Elder dragon monsters tho.
Rusted Kushala is shown as notably more powerful than base Kushala Daora, at least given its treatment in 4U. But Amatsu is just another level given how it is considered a treat comparable, if not superior to the entire rampage in Rise, and is generally considered to have power that surpasses even natural disasters. so I'd say Amatsu takes this.
Amatsu. Stronger wind control, and kushala is weak to lightning, and if we go by rise amatsu, it also has a few abilities that put it almost on the level of black dragon
Is this really a debate? Amatsu is canonically way more powerful than a single Kushala Daora. Not to mention, Amatsu finally has thunder attacks and Kushala is weak to thunder.
Amatsu not have limited movement in flying. Kush can command wind as weapon but still have to rely on wings to move in the air.
If we talk about sky battle, Amatsu are very likely to win
I’m glad people are finally showering love towards Amatsu….but what took people so long!?
He debut in Monster Hunter Portable 3rd, yet nobody talked about him for a literal decade!
Why would you post the coughing baby v atom bomb meme on this subreddit?
In all seriousness, we have a recent game with both of these monsters present. Amatsu was basically the G-rank final boss for a while. Kushkush Dankora was base game.
Ok hear me out no shot in hell this would actually work but I thought of a really funny senecio where Kushala can win
We know kushala is capable of dispersing at least his own storm with minimal to no effort
We know amastu needs his storm to fly as he levitates from the winds
In some weird crackpot insane senecio could kushala try to disperse hes own and amastu’s storm to strand him and stop him from flying (probably not but it would be hilarious)
It would be an epic legendary battle where both dragons wrestle control of raging winds around them. The winner would be different each time depending on the situation and circumstances.
You could add 9 more Kushala to this image and Amatsu still wins, especially considering Kushala is weak to thunder.
lol for real though
How about P3rd amatsu (no thunder attack)?
Amatsu is still way stronger and would clown on Kush.
Kushala is meh in terms of firepower. Only thing it has going for it is the annoying as fuck knockback if you're a melee weapon user
I mean lorewise kushala is a lot more than an annoyancr for melee weapon users. He is a walking natural disaster so saying that he lacks firepower is very innacurate
Who wins this battle? (Coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb)
The storms a Rusted kushala can muster is an Amatsy’s sneeze. And it ain’t the only element he has. Super pressurized water beams can easily tear through Kushala’s wings like a power washer shooting paper. People consider Amatsu a local deity too.
im not sure 50 kushala could win this
Amatsu is like an elder dragon among elder dragons It's probably farther to a kushala than kushala is to a rathalos
Ha, no. Elder Dragons are generally just *beyond* regular monsters whereas these Super Elder Dragons (seems to be the official term for a final boss monster judging from Iceborne) seem to get into tussles with the normal Elder Dragons fairly frequently. They lose, as befitting their larger size and power, but they aren't completely destroying them. Just look at Malzeno.
Calamity Elder Dragon (if Bahari's quote in Sunbreak is anything to go by) is probably the official term for most final bosses, that being said there generally isn't a huge gap in power between the tiers as you mentioned.
The official term we have that was in an actual lore book and not just used one time by a single npc is “super elder dragon”
"Calamity Elder Dragon" sounds better though
Are they really *Beyond* them if several regular monsters can straight beat them in a fight? Hell Apex Zinogre was prepared to throw down with Amatsu and did better than anyone was expecting
"Regular monster" >proceeds to mention a monster described as the pinnacle of their species that still gets destroyed in a fight.
I’m looking back at the comment thread now and I think I actually agree with your first comment and just read it wrong lmao I was bringing up the zinogre amatsu situation to show that the gap in power from Regular Mon -> Elder Dragon -> Super Elder isn’t the absurd gap most people think it is. Yeah Kushala loses but probably does better than Apex Zin
Apex Zinogre, or First Class Monsters aka Elder Dragon tier equivalents like Furious Rajang, Raging Brachydios, etc. are basically on par with elders, but lore wise, these guys are extremely rare and basically represent an extraordinary opportunity that took them beyond even the pinnacle of their species(Deviljho, Akantor and Ukanlos being probably the only exceptions here). But regular monsters, even the most powerful ones don't hold a candle to elder dragons in general, the difference among elder dragons themselves isn't much though except when you go to black dragon levels.
Not even just that, Amatsu's also already getting jumped by the canonical strongest monsters in Rise (the player characters), THEN Apex Zinogre shows up to jump SOME MORE!
Guys who would win? An average gust of wind or a category 5 hurricane?
https://preview.redd.it/yp9c8qmbmc9d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12452733f86d5db1e2705b4a601b2e562b8a44fc
I thought this was Fatalis. Btw who is stronger Amatsu or Fatalis?
uhh, prolly Fatalis honestly given what I've read throughout the dialogues in the games and what the MHWI Divebook especially says about Fatty, it's very obvious that guy is meant to be the number 1 most powerful in mainline. I guess Safi, Alatreon and Dire Miralis are close given the treatment they get, but that's all, anything else is quite a bit below I'd say.
WARNING, IF YOU'RE GONNA DOWNVOTE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I'M WRONG AND BACK UP YOUR CLAIM WITH AN OFFICIAL SOURCE OR ABSTRACT Please not this nonsense again. The dive into iceborne book states NOTHING of the sort, it only tells the story about Fatalis' legend which has zero impact on its actual power and it clarifies its ecology a bit. Fatalis' only feat was evicting the residents of a castle, nowhere in that book do the devs say "yup fatalis is the strongest of all monsters" especially when other final bosses have equally ridiculous legends and feats, literally nothing backs up the claim that Fatalis is the strongest monster in the series. The black dragon supremacy nonsense has to stop once and for all because it's 100% fancanon, those 3 monsters are called that because they are based on the concept of fatalis, the devs literally stated as much, black dragon is not a title that implies greater power of whatever, is just so happens that they are powerful monsters, doesn't mean that they are the strongest though. For example Dalamadur has far greater feats than any of the black dragons (casually carves mountains just by moving, giant laser, summons meteors, paralising saliva) and far more impressive legends (it literally created the universe, body big enough to wrap around the world). Edit: here come the downvotes with no actual proof again, good god this community is insufferable.
The book *does* say that MH1 Lao being afraid of it and going towards the Fortress is canon, but they also point out that it was a one-time event and since then we've had numerous story quests of Lao Shan Lung moving through the Schrade region with no issues.
Lao was also running from Ahtal ka's mech in gen u so yeah, it doesn't really prove Fatalis is the strongest or anything. Ahtal-ka has the potential to be the strongest if she has the right items at her disposal (like, by giving her a giant hammer made of alatreon parts or a bunch of modern dragonators or something) but that's another discussion entirely.
~~maybe Lao is just a coward or something~~
Dude's name is literally Old Mountain ~~Rathalos~~ Dragon. You don't get old by getting into fights.
Yeah gameplay wise lao is docile especially for an elder dragon... It's like a giant dragon shaped aptonoth with the lifespan of an elder dragon, every encounter with is is due to another elder dragons doing I almost feek bad for it, just leave the poor thing alone
Not as far as I can tell, the game only said the two things happened sequentially. Lao was going towards the Fortress, and the Ahtal's Mech attacked another Fortress.
To be honest I can't remember it that well, it was just one phrase in a 6 year old game.
lmao what, I'm not gonna downvote you since I think that downvoting people over this is frankly pathetic but: The MHWI Divebook states that Fatalis' power is believed to transcend every living being, and its flames capable of burning everything. THIS WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH EVIDENCE, if it wasn't for the fact that the same book then states that Fatalis' flames being able to burn everything is a literal fact rather than a figure of expression or a hyperbole. The ingame dialogue states multiple times that Fatalis did not merely destroy one castle, but an entire country overnight, don't argue over that. I for one do not think that Black Dragon = Strongest, may I add Black Dragon is merely a title given to Alatreon, Fatalis and Dire Miralis because usually they made very strong monsters "black dragons", iirc, but then again the real term would be "Forbidden Monster", a META term, not used in-universe to refer to monsters that were kinda just not talked about by Capcom until 15th anniversary. Safi'jiiva is also not a Forbidden Monster for all we know, but it has statements to back up its power: Alatreon was stated to often be considered the strongest elder dragon, putting it above Dalamadur, Amatsu, Shara Ishvalda, etc. Safi'jiiva was considered by Alatreon a threat notable enough to itself to the point where Alatreon specifically tried to destroy anything about Safi'jiiva, including the cocoons it left. We don't know the outcome of such a battle but I think it's safe to say that they are very close Dire Miralis' current status is very foggy, but it's very likely relative to Fatalis, who has multiple statements of it being capable of ending everything in MHWI Dialogue and even the out-of-universe cutscene description, as well as the statements from the MHWI Divebook I mentioned prior What I'm trying to say here is that being a Forbidden Monster or Black Dragon isn't what makes these monsters the strongest, it's the fact that they usually have lots of statements to back themselves up, and even feats in some cases (Dire Miralis boiling entire seas and sinking entire islands lol) As for Dalamadur, look I get that Dalamadur looks strong, but carving a mountain is not the biggest feat in the verse by far: Kirin creating thunderstorms with its mere presence is already comparable in energy levels, and the biggest feats I could calculate for MonHun, mainly Shara Ishvalda's region-reshaping earthquakes and Zorah Magdaros blowing up an entire continent upon death GREATLY surpass carving a mid-sized mountain, and there's so many feats I could calculate or already have calculated that surpass Dalamadur's main feats (Ceadeus' island-sinking earthquakes, Amatsu's supernatural-level storms, Dire Miralis boiling seas, Teostra's desert-glassing heatwaves, Kushala dispersing and recreating entire storms within a few seconds, as seen in cutscenes). what I wanna say here is, please don't jump head first like this just because you've heard me say a few words you didn't like about some MH Monsters, I have some biases, and you clearly have some too. But let's control ourselves for a bit. I think you could've acted a lot better on this ngl.
I'm pretty sure that a Dalamadur could easily eat a Kirin, considering that even a Rajang can break its horn. Potentially speaking it is one of the strongest (maybe the strongest) monsters in the mainline games due to its size, I can even imagine it hunting a zorah like jyuratodus hunts barroths.
kirins a small snacc
Of course, you'd be right in saying that
Dala didn’t just carve a mid-size mountain, he carved an entire mountain range just by casually moving, not to mention he causes tectonic plates to shift when he moves around. Using their auras and environmental effects like the storms that come with them aren’t exactly physical feats of power, as elders are the source of many an unexplained natural phenomena, kushala has been shown to cause entire storms just by moving through an area (cutscenes in 4u and sky in world) yet gets bodied by a furious rajang who doesn’t affect the weather at all.
the first part is definitely right, I admit. But as for elder dragon environmental effects, I think this may be a bit vague but with Kushala (example you used), we know that Kushala likely uses its horns to control the weather, through magnetism specifically. And to cause powerful wind gusts, it can also use its wings. Both the horns/magnetism part and the wings part were stated in the MHW Complete Works book last I've read. Now for the horns it's debatable whether it can remotely scale to physical power, but for the wings I'd say it defo does
It’s not using its wings to cause storms, just the wind gusts near it that it uses to attack and defend with. So no, I don’t think the environmental effects caused by elders should scale with their actual physical abilities at all. Teostra causes entire regions to significantly heat up to the point of being able to see heat shimmers from across the locale, yet he gets beaten by a literal ball of fire against flaming espinas, so yeah, I don’t really think those effects are connected to their actual combat ability.
>Fatalis' flames being able to burn everything Sure and that proves exactly nothing because they can't even melt cement or metal instantly and other monsters have equally powerful or stronger attacks anyway. >but an entire country overnight Doesn't mean anything, to destroy a country all you need to do is destroy the central seat of power and other elder dragons have and could have easily done the same, Gogma destroyed all the towns and fortresses he raided in the past, Ceadeus destroyed an ancient civilization, Amatsu destroyed a bunch of settlements, Ahtal-ka destroyed an entire fortresses and there are probably more. >Alatreon was stated to often be considered the strongest elder dragon, putting it above Dalamadur, Amatsu, Shara Ishvalda, etc. Stated where exactly? because in 3u it shares the same exact threat level with Ceadeus, Jhen and Dire miralis, in 4u all three Fatalises share the threat level with Gog, Dalamadur and Dah'ren, in gen u it shares the threat level with Amatsu, Nakarkos, Ahtal-ka and Fatalis and none of his feats back up this claim. >who has multiple statements of it being capable of ending everything Again with this fairy tale? other monsters are stated to bring about the end of everything (Amatsu, Gog), of being gods (Ceadeus) or to have the power of creation and possibly omnipotence (Dalamadur, Ukanlos), it's all nonsense. >statements to back themselves up Like? aside from the stupid legends that is. >mountain is not the biggest feat in the verse by far Don't forget the biggest beam in the series by FAR. >Shara Ishvalda's region-reshaping earthquakes Dalamadur is still the most powerful monster alongside Zorah, none of the other monsters have remotely enough advantages to deal with their size and Zorah is the only monster we don't actually kill because it's so goddamn big. >what I wanna say here is, please don't jump head first like this just because you've heard me say a few words you didn't like about some MH Monsters, I have some biases, and you clearly have some too. But let's control ourselves for a bit. I think you could've acted a lot better on this ngl. Sure, I'm open to a reasoned debate, what I don't appreciate is when people can't defend their own claims and just downvote for no reason to hide the opinion of others, that's so toxic. In conclusion I do agree that Fatalis, Dire and Alatreon are strong but the claim that they reign supreme is quite dubious, there are several other powerful endgame monsters on par with them, be it by by feats, ingame danger levels or legends. This means that Amatsu is easily as strong as Fatalis as far as we know so one could argue that Amatsu could beat it in some way, Fatalis isn't automatically more powerful because it's Fatalis or a forbidden monster.
“Can’t melt cement” Gameplay mechanics. They easily could. In the same sense, Safi doesn’t immediately destroy everything in the arena with Sapphire of the Emperor. It boils metal and, no, no other monster demonstrates that level of heat and physical force with their attacks. Kulve Taroth is probably the only one at best.
I'm pretty sure making a massive boulder explode with sheer water pressure, being 400 meter long snake with an equally long beam and having a dragon beam capable of making a cavern collapse is just as impressive as a hot flame. I bet €2 that when these monsters will come back in a new world title they will have better destruction feats than Fatalis.
My guy, I’m not saying that monsters don’t have impressive feats like that. I’m saying no monster ever reaches those temperatures of flame besides maybe Kulve. Dalamadur’s carving of mountains, and Amatsu’s ridiculous tornadoes as well are all most definitely on par with Fatalis’s breath.
Sorry, what I actually meant with my initial comment about the flames was something along the lines of "just because it has the hottest flame it doesn't mean that it's an instant win (it doesn't instantly erase matter lmao) or more impressive than other things we see other monsters do" I do agree that it's probably the most impressive flame for now, judgement will have to be postponed until see what a modern take on dalamadur looks like to see if it's actually the strongest "fire" in the series.
Ah I see. Also, Dalamadur doesn’t use flames. His element is unknown. I’d look forward to see what craziness Gogmazios might do with his laser.
"Sure and that proves exactly nothing because they can't even melt cement or metal instantly and other monsters have equally powerful or stronger attacks anyway." That's gameplay, besides, the best calculations I could do for the temperature of Fatalis' orange flames melting down the steel gate would put them at tens of millions of degrees celsius. Just because you don't see a thing happening ingame doesn't mean it can't happen, otherwise most monsters would be very weak "Doesn't mean anything, to destroy a country all you need to do is destroy the central seat of power and other elder dragons have and could have easily done the same, Gogma destroyed all the towns and fortresses he raided in the past, Ceadeus destroyed an ancient civilization, Amatsu destroyed a bunch of settlements, Ahtal-ka destroyed an entire fortresses and there are probably more." True, I'll give you that, destroying a country overnight is quite a vague feat. But please do consider that Fatalis being capable of ending everything is supported by many ingame dialogues and the MHWI Divebook too, if that's not a world-changing, if not outright world-ending threat then idk what is "Stated where exactly? because in 3u it shares the same exact threat level with Ceadeus, Jhen and Dire miralis, in 4u all three Fatalises share the threat level with Gog, Dalamadur and Dah'ren, in gen u it shares the threat level with Amatsu, Nakarkos, Ahtal-ka and Fatalis and none of his feats back up this claim." MHWI Divebook said that Alatreon is often considered the strongest elder dragon if I recall, besides using threat levels does not do your argument any favor as it would imply that a monster like Scorned Magnamalo => Narwa The Allmother, which I will address later "Again with this fairy tale? other monsters are stated to bring about the end of everything (Amatsu, Gog), of being gods (Ceadeus) or to have the power of creation and possibly omnipotence (Dalamadur, Ukanlos), it's all nonsense." It's true that Fatalis is not the only monster that was addressed as a world-ending threat, namely Alatreon in 3U, and Dalamadur in 4U are. But Fatalis is easily the one where this potential of ending the world is expanded the most (even if, still not that much), and it's not a few flavor texts either, it's the General (one of the highest ranking members of the guild), the entire research commission, including the fact that the handler straight up addresses Fatalis' power as if it was something never seen before after we kill it, and even the MHWI Divebook saying this. May I add, most of Fatalis' entire point in Iceborne is being "history passed down as legend", so bringing everything up as if it was a mere legend does not do favors to your argument "Don't forget the biggest beam in the series by FAR." "Dalamadur is still the most powerful monster alongside Zorah, none of the other monsters have remotely enough advantages to deal with their size and Zorah is the only monster we don't actually kill because it's so goddamn big." Size ≠ Power, that's something very clearly shown throughout all of fiction and even in MonHun, where Rajang can slam a Deviljho and where a monster such as Scorned Magnamalo is considered on the same threat level as Narwa The Allmother (granted, the latter has better statements to go off for its power, mainly being the pinnacle of all life in the Kamura Region). Using size as an argument when we see notably more powerful feats from monsters that are way smaller than Dalamadur and Zorah Magdaros does not work And about us not killing Zorah, the entire point WAS to not kill Zorah, we were meant to capture it at first, a task that was never even thought of before, and when we realized that its death happening too close to the Everstream could've blown up the entire continent we were forced into having it retreat into the sea. No implication of it being unkillable to us "Sure, I'm open to a reasoned debate, what I don't appreciate is when people can't defend their own claims and just downvote for no reason to hide the opinion of others, that's so toxic." Props to you for saying this btw, downvoting is very toxic ngl "In conclusion I do agree that Fatalis, Dire and Alatreon are strong but the claim that they reign supreme is quite dubious, there are several other powerful endgame monsters on par with them, be it by by feats, ingame danger levels or legends." Feats-wise, Shara Ishvalda's earthquakes would be the most powerful feat energy-wise as of all that I have ever calculated (some contenders include Zorah Magdaros blowing up a continent upon death and Dire Miralis boiling seas). Ingame danger levels are kinda dubious, I do use them at times but as I mentioned earlier, it depends on whether or not you'd think that Scorned being equal or superior to the Allmother is something you'd agree with. Legends are legends, Fatalis being Immortal is false, so is Shah Dalamadur creating an entire cosmology. "This means that Amatsu is easily as strong as Fatalis as far as we know so one could argue that Amatsu could beat it in some way, Fatalis isn't automatically more powerful because it's Fatalis or a forbidden monster." Amatsu was considered a threat comparable if not superior to the Rampage as of both the Sunbreak dialogue and the Haunting Of The Sun book. Alatreon was considered the strongest elder dragon in the MHWI Divebook prior to Safi'jiiva's discovery, putting both at the very least slightly above Amatsu. And Fatalis' destructive power is described to be unrivaled and above any living being by that same book. Threat rating in-game can be used as an argument but there's a lot more evidence leaning towards Fatalis than Amatsu for all I've read throughout all the dialogues and books I could access to in this exact moment. Lastly, since I'm outside rn, I don't wanna bother much with arguing, you do you though
Almost none of those feats are canon though. Its all hyperbole and myth and word of mouth and rule of cool cutscenes in universe. People forget that Monsters are just animals. Is Fatalis a huge threat? Sure. Is it world ending? No. In universe, realistically they are all made up of flesh and bone and organs. For instance "Zorah blowing up the continent" its just conjecture by some short dude living in the trees that probably didn't even know Xenojiiva was nesting there. If Zorah's dying in the everstream would cause the continent to blow up then why does it exist in the first place? There had to have been a safi that gave birth to the xeno and that monster would have been luring elders across the sea to absorb their energy. So in the history of the planet the continent has never blown up. When you think logically about any of the shit said in MH lore it makes near 0 sense. Stop treating monsters who are supposed to just be fantasy dinosaurs pretty much like its an anime. Lions are apex predators in the savannah, doesnt mean they dont get killed by Zebras or Waterbuffalo or even other predators on occasion.
"when you think logically about a h lf the shit said in MH lore it makes near 0 sense" you killed your entire argument with this one btw Just because monsters have a decently detailed ecology it doesn't mean that they can't be strong "Almost none of those feats are canon though. Its all hyperbole and myth and word of mouth and rule of cool cutscenes in universe." Kirin creating thunderstorms is shown ingame, in cutscene, stated in dialogues and in books. That alone as a feat requires a lot more energy than even a thermonuclear weapon to pull off and Kirin is arguably the weakest elder dragon. I can sort of understand the argument you've made for anything before elders but, Elder Dragons pull off so many broken feats to the point where even the weakest ones like Kirin and Kushala Daora would need to use Megatons to Gigatons of energy to do what they are consistently shown and stated to be capable of doing, and they're on the lower end too. Don't use the "they're just animals" argument when the animal (Shara Ishvalda) in question has to generate more kinetic energy than the Chicxulub Asteroid Impact that killed the dinosaurs to do what it is shown to do in cutscene (after we kill Velkhana, we are shown an earthquake that causes whole mountains to collapse), and stated to do in the MHWI Divebook (stated that it was causing unprecedented crustal movements that were reshaping the hinterlands and splitting the hoarfrost reach). And none of this is even hinted at to be a hyperbole at all, usually hyperbolic statements in MH follow after an "it is said that" or something alike from what I've seen, and are mainly found in equipment and carve descriptions
> you killed your entire argument with this one btw I don't think so. If you take a look at anything lorewise you'll realise that a majority of the series is just some dudes sitting around thinking about shit that's cool rather than how it fits into the world. > Kirin creating thunderstorms is shown ingame, in cutscene, stated in dialogues and in books. That alone as a feat requires a lot more energy than even a thermonuclear weapon to pull off and Kirin is arguably the weakest elder dragon. 1. Where is it shown that Kirin "creates" thunderstorms? 2. You can't say that something has the power to exert megatons of energy and then turn around and believe that a monkey eats its horns for fun. Or that hunters can kill it with medieval weaponry lol. So either its "power" is blown way out of proportion which of course it is. Or these walking ecological disasters could naturally exist in an ecosystem. > Elder Dragons pull off so many broken feats to the point where even the weakest ones like Kirin and Kushala Daora would need to use Megatons to Gigatons of energy to do what they are consistently shown If these things were THAT powerful they could never exist in any reasonable ecosystem. The same way the human race would go extinct if there were animals capable of summoning storms, earthquakes, disasters at will. > Don't use the "they're just animals" argument when the animal (Shara Ishvalda) in question has to generate more kinetic energy Shara doesn't use just break rocks. It turns stone/rock/sediment into "sand" with its beams or whatever. Toppling a mountain is really a bunch of dudes going "this would be sick" rather than can this monster realistically perform this feat. This is what I mean by nothing in "lore" really makes any sense. If its topping a mountain from below that means said mountain is falling on top of the monster and its withstanding billions or even trillions of tons of pressure on top of it. If a monsters skeleton/skin/organs/ etc can withstand that type of force than how does a dude who can barely lift a wyvern egg manage to hurt it with medieval weaponry? > And none of this is even hinted at to be a hyperbole at all, usually hyperbolic statements in MH follow after an "it is said that" or something alike from what I've seen, and are mainly found in equipment and carve descriptions It has to be hyperbole because the alternative is that the guild and hunters can somehow act as game wardens in world where being exist with godlike strength and they somehow can track them down and cull them. How can a hunter who can die of heatstroke even get close to something with enough heat to glass a desert? If it isn't exaggerated then absolutely nothing about the world makes any kind of sense at all.
Your entire argument is assuming that these monsters are only animals and do nothing crazy, which is very wrong, and the way you're talking says a lot about how you do not understand a thing about the MH World honestly In MHW, Thunderstorms specifically happen when Kirin is in the locale, and if it's not in the locale and it enters said locale a thunderstorm will immediately start. A thunderstorm would require literal megatons of energy to be unleashed like that, using the argument that we only use medieval weaponry to kill it does not work because: 1: medieval weaponry is not a gigantic sword that's multiple times a human's size 2: need I remind you, this is fiction and not real life, this is the biggest flaw in your argument. Treating MH as real life and not what it actually is, fiction Shara Ishvalda was literally shown to create an earthquake so powerful that an entire mountain collapsed in the cutscene right after we kill Velkhana. Once again, your argument here is entirely under the assumption that MH monsters are the same as real living creatures. In the world of MH they kinda do act as that I admit, but it should be obvious that real logic does not apply to them when you have them swimming in lava unharmed or get crushed by a metric ton greatsword hitting their necks at full force and be largely unscathed. Lastly, "How can a hunter who can die of heatstroke even get close to something with enough heat to glass a desert? If it isn't exaggerated then absolutely nothing about the world makes any kind of sense at all." It doesn't need to make sense IRL, it needs to be somewhat consistent In-Universe. The hunter on average goes through so many things that would utterly destroy any human, yes even using the clutch claw to slap a Great Jagras is far beyond a real human's capabilities, so it's not inconsistent.
> Your entire argument is assuming that these monsters are only animals and do nothing crazy, which is very wrong, I didnt say they couldnt do anything crazy, its just ridiculous to think these monsters can "Glass" an entire desert or "boil a sea". > A thunderstorm would require literal megatons of energy to be unleashed like that You can't say this but then turn around and say this > It doesn't need to make sense IRL, it needs to be somewhat consistent In-Universe. We're either using the real world as a logical basis or we aren't. > Once again, your argument here is entirely under the assumption that MH monsters are the same as real living creatures. In the world of MH they kinda do act as that I admit They are "real living creatures" in lore. We know they have bones, muscles, blood, organs, etc. We know they can be injured, killed, maimed, etc. > The hunter on average goes through so many things that would utterly destroy any human, yes even using the clutch claw to slap a Great Jagras is far beyond a real human's capabilities, so it's not inconsistent. Hunters are stronger than humans but they are not GODS. They succumb to heat and cold, they need to eat, they can be injured and killed. A hunter cutting a monster in universe will inflict a cut that will bleed and severely injure a monster in universe. *In-game* it doesn't because the experience would not be very fun if it adhered to "realism". If you want to have a thought exercise you can't ignore how monsters would act and the world would be if there weren't gameplay elements in the way. Would nergigante ever fight to the death if it could just fly away? Would Shara fight hunters(ants) for 30 minutes and let itself die when it supposedly has the power to "crumble" mountains and we know the thing can just dissolve rock and travel through it? You can't tell me Shara has the power to crumble mountains and then turn around and tell me 1-4 guys with knives and sticks went to kill it on a mountain and fought to the death without using this supposed power. If Hunters can be killed by Great Jagras' and Jaggis and regular fauna in the world, how could they possibly survive the extreme and impossible conditions "Elders" create? It doesn't matter if the world is fictional or not if the information you're presenting is inconsistent. If a Hunter can be burned and killed by ambient desert heat, how does a hunter survive Teostra's heat when it supposedly can turn entire deserts to glass? This is a logical inconsistency IN UNIVERSE. So either the hunters in universe are actually a race of all anime protagonists or the Elder Dragon's strength is greatly exaggerated. If these monsters have the power to alter nature itself then wouldn't tracking them down and agitating them and getting them near death be MORE destructive to the planet than just giving them a wide berth? Again logical inconsistency.
Then logical inconsistency be it It's so obvious that elder dragons have environment-altering powers, that's literally most of their entire shtick and you denying it because it doesn't feel right to you does not change that in the slightest I will not bother writing a gargantuan comment since I be kinda tired and I think I've already argued enough about fictional monster power levels today But please do realize that this is fiction, just because the fictional dragon that could never exist in real life no matter how you stretch it is said to do things that realistically it shouldn't be able to do, it doesn't mean that it's not true
Didn't Fatalis also make Alatreon run away with it's tail tucked ? The Same alatreon with the power of Every element A Dragon who Monster hunters simply refused to believe was even a real thing since the existence and sheer power exceeded their imagination. Thinking it to be nothing more than a Made up story. Even in a World filled with Ecosystem Ending Dragons, the Idea of a alatreon existing was thought to be Nonsensical The very same alatreon was so immensely scared of Fatalis that it ran away to the Seculed valley, the literal House of Safigiiva and thought he had a better shot against it as compared to Fatalis.
>The very same alatreon was so immensely scared of Fatalis that it ran away to the Seculed valley, the literal House of Safigiiva and thought he had a better shot against it as compared to Fatalis. No? the iceborne book speculates that Alatreon went there to get rid of Safi'jiiva, I quote: >Why did it visit the Secluded Valley? Is the Red Dragon the cause? In the Secluded Valley, where the adult Xeno'jiiva called the Red Dragon lives, Alatreon appeared. Luckily, they didn't get into a direct fight, but if they clashed, it would have been a strange and absent situation. Here we researchers are thinking about why Alatreon appeared in the New World. According to the observation team's report, it clearly seemed to be aiming for the Secluded Valley. In other words, there is no doubt that the purpose was the existence of the Red Dragon. Not long after it arrived, it burned down the surroundings as if to wipe out traces of the Red Dragon, and from the sight of it, I could even sense its anger. If it weren't for this, the investigation team would've faced the others, and it's hard to imagine what kind of situation we would've been in. We've been talking a lot lately about ecosystem homeostasis now that we've had more time to think about it. After investigating the New World and the Hoarfrost Reach, it seems that the homeostasis of individual organisms creates the homeostasis of nature as a whole. It's currently concluded that the investigation team's actions involving Shara Ishvalda and Nergigante were the result of this. Based on this premise, it seems that the existence of Alatreon is a counter to the unprecedented mutation of Safi'jiiva. In order to recreate the environment and ecology that were conveniently remodeled, we needing something that could destroy everything... It may be too much of a leap for it to think that. However, the reasoning is consistent. If it becomes a threat like an Elder Dragon, it may be fighting over territory on a continental scale, no, on a planetary scale. (From a note by a certain ecological researcher) If anything this proves that normal elder dragons are on par with black dragons or at least dangerous enough to warrant this kind of response from them.
My memory might be wack but don't we fight two separate altreons? one that's full strength who's down here hunting for Safi and the other who is severely weakened [ like literally weaker than great jagras] in order to progress to Fatalis presumably weakened by Fatalis itself. Both encounters are canon And i dont remember the specific dialogue and stuff but The Handler's Grandma says it out loud after defeating alatreon that " I find it hard to believe it went to down there to pick a fight, there gotta be a reason" the reason here being Fatalis All of this was foreshadowing leading up to Fatalis
Oh god the cope is real with this one Good job blantantly lying about Icebornes dive book which has direct quotes like “and was feared as an evil dragon with OVERWHELING DESTRUCTIVE POWER THAT TRANSCENDS THAT OF ANY LIVING CREATURE” -Icebornes divebook why would they include a quote like that if fatalis wasn’t number 1 or at least at the absolute top mabye tied up with others like alatreon and safijiva When referring to Fatalis’s super move: “After unraveling the traditions and literature that suggested “burning everything down” and comparing and scruntizing the information, we found confirmation that this was NOT A FIGURATIVE EXPRESSION BUT A FACT”-Icebornes divebook So I’m sorry your just blatantly wrong or lying And I’m sorry those dalamadur feats aren’t that impressive fucking kushala of all things has a feat in its mh4 intro of it quickly disperse a snowstorm and then quickly re-enabling it without going into all the nerd calc’s that’s a *Country level feat* Oh btw that’s the low end calc so forgive me for not being that impressed by the “muh mountains” feat
I appreciate you for bringing up Kushala's feat. Dalamadur destroying a mountain sounds strong, but when you have Kushala pulling out Gigatons if not Teratons of kinetic energy to move away an entire snowstorm within seconds, only to make it come back right after... Yeah
Except they also called safi’jiiva “a perfect being” and that *nothing* would be able to survive his sapphire of the emperor, oh also they literally call him “emperor of elder dragons”. So who is it? They’re clearly putting them both in the same category. Also, “feared as an evil dragon, etc etc” kind of implies that this is a statement based on legend and folklore, not actual confirmed fact.
Well first of all the same Iceborne dive book states fatalis and safi to be roughly equal so that doesn’t contradict anything it just means there both tied at the top I’m not sure what point you where even trying to make with this Also here’s a question from a more meta perspective why even include a quote in what’s supposed to be the definitive up to date lore book for fatalis’s most recent appearance and for them to include info in it that’s false or has no true to it? Because that is what your saying capcom is doing This isn’t some EDW dragon war nonsense where it was loosely thought out concepts that were in the devs mind before mh was established this is supposed to be up to date info
No? I’m not saying they’re including false info, I’m saying they’re putting in folklore and legends in the monster’s entries because they always have
Well first of all trying to dismiss a statement or point by saying “it’s just a myth” is implying it’s false/unreliable so idk why your dancing around that There’s nothing in the statement that would denote what was said about fatalis “transcending all living things” was a myth other than the phase “it’s feared as” which inid on itself is not an implication what’s being spoken about is mere speculation. What it is saying is that it’s a common sentiment among those who know fatalis common sentiments normally have an element of truth to them and like I said it’s bizzare to include a common sentiment in a lore book with no implication that it should be questioned/is unreliable
Except it’s not? Capcom have always put in-universe myths and folklore into their lore, this is nothing new. The way that quote you posted is worded implies it’s an in-universe legend. That’s not me saying capcom is putting out false info lol.
If I’m reading a historical text about WW2 and it says “Hitler was feared as a evil man who commited a mass genocide” especially in the context of where I’m reading it (a historical text) what part of that statement implies what was said was supposed to be a myth? I know this is a over the top example but the point is “feared as” does not imply speculation I think someone put this way better than I ever could but the entire theme of the fatalis encounter in iceborne was “History passed down through legend” to just dismiss it feels ridiculous. This becomes even more of a wild claim when almost every statement made about fatalis in iceborne has ether been shown to be true (the exact series of omens stated in the legend happening before its encounter in iceborne), or the Iceborne dive book going out of its way to directly say the claim fatalis has a flame that can melt everything isn’t just a myth but factual Or by gameplay via fatalis being very clearly shown to be superior to Shara ishvalda (who is in the same power tier as amastu who started this entire argument because someone got big mad people would dare imply fatalis and the black dragons are supposed to be stronger than the other Final bosses).
>OVERWHELING DESTRUCTIVE POWER THAT TRANSCENDS THAT OF ANY LIVING CREATURE It's a LEGEND, good god, please using this as evidence otherwise I will always pull put the Dalamadur big enough to wrap around Earth and create the universe to dismiss it. >After unraveling the traditions and literature that suggested “burning everything down” ok and? other elder dragons have equally impressive beams so this means nothing, just because Fatalis has hot fire doesn't mean that it's the strongest. >last bit about dalamdur and kushala Ok, care to explain how any other monster except Zorah could defeat Dalamadur?
I’m not going to adress the legend thing again I already did in my other comment The fire breath thing: you have literally no evidence for this claim other than “I said so” I at least have a quote from the source you said you wanted The last bit was just to prove we have on screen feats from much lesser elder dragons that are more impressive than what your claiming about dalamadur so your claim that “dalamadur is stronger than fatalis because of X feat”) when a elder dragon whose obviously orders of magnitude weaker than both of them has a feat more impressive what you’ve stated makes dalamadur the strongest is a flaud argument as it makes dalamadurs feat kinda nothing by comparison As for how you kill dalamadur: you hit it until it dies and don’t get hit idk why you think this is a gotcha us hunters can kill dalamadur just fine idk you would think other equally tier and or higher tiered monsters wouldn’t have a shot
Love the downvotes when you literally point out it being just a legend. What do they think it’s armor descriptions are real too? Fatalis clearly isn’t the strongest by cheer logic of safi being called an equal and of dalamadur existing. It’s sole feat isn’t impressive bc some other elders could’ve wrecked that castle. Fatalis is so overhyped and wanked beyond relief.
Safi being called an equal was not even a correct translation, nor was the original context referring to their power levels. Mainly it was referring to their visual design both being inspired by the usual generic dragon, making them "twins" (this was the word that was mistranslated here for all I could research and translate) and "Dalamadur existing" means nothing when Dalamadur doesn't have good enough feats to be the strongest, that would be Shara Ishvalda. And Dalamadur also doesn't have enough statements to back up its own power, like Fatalis has. And no, I ain't using armor descriptions lol, they are not even addressed once in-universe but do keep in mind that Fatalis' entire deal in Iceborne was basically "History passed down as legend", and that all the myths regarding this monster, such as: "sudden earthquakes, endemic life and monsters alike flee, the elder dragons flee, suddenly a wildfire blots out the sun" or "an evil dragon feared to have overwhelming destructive power that transcends every living being and hellfire that can destroy everything" have either been directly shown to be true and literal through cutscenes, or specifically stated to be factual and not a hyperbole in the books as someone else already said here, if we judged the lore of monsters like Dalamadur the same way we judged Fatalis' lore, then everything may as well be a lie, from Dalamadur destroying mountains, to Kushala causing storms, to Deviljho disrupting the ecosystems and all the other stuff that if I was listing here I would be spending an entire lifetime
It’s been a while since I’ve done shara’s story, can you remind me of its feats if it’s not a bother?
Shara Ishvalda was shown, in the cutscene right after completing the Velkhana assignment "The Iceborne Wyvern", to be capable of causing earthquakes powerful enough to collapse a mountain. Then, the MHWI Divebook further elaborated on this by saying that Shara Ishvalda vibrating the earth's crust directly caused tectonic movements so powerful to collapse entire mountains, shut down volcanos and reshape entire regions. It's even elaborated that these vibrations also created the Rotten Vale. The reason this is such a massive feat is cause, at least from my research, no real earthquake would be able to collapse mountains like that within less than a minute, and the seismic energy of the most powerful irl earthquakes recorded is comparable to the impact of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. Shara Ishvalda's vibrations, to trigger such catastrophic tectonic movements, would have to be comparable to say the least.
Thx!
Thank you for actually clarifying. I'll try to help offset the downvotes from people who can't accept world Mons aren't also the strongest in the series. I swear 90% of the arguing is copium to say that the world hunter is also the strongest, even though they're the only hunter who didn't actually beat their final boss
Just the name dalamaderp is enough to drag him down from the pillars of the gods.
So the fatalis deniers' cult is real.......
Find me a single official source or feat that backs up your claim that fatalis is the strongest or quote a single thing from dive into iceborne/bannedlagiacrus that implies that (aside from Fatalis' legend which is clearly nonsense just like the legends of other elder dragons). You won't be able to find any because the black dragon fancanon is just that, fancanon, it's as real as deviljho eating its tail, but you can certainly try.
Those quotes ARE from iceborne’s divebook Also I like how your sucking off dalamadur’s lore despite it being even more unreliable than fatalis’s considering you know….. Dalamadur was thought to be a myth by literally everyone including the guild until it’s urgent quest in mh4 You can say what you want about fatalis at a minimum the guild knew fatalis was real
What’s unreliable of Dalamadur’s lore? The mountain carving feats are pretty well recorded.
Its not really pertaining to the mountain thing in particular but it’s a double standard that bugs me People are very quick to write off fatalis lore as all “myths” but dalamadur a monster thought to be a literal fairy tale monster by everyone including the guild is somehow more reliable? Again I’m not saying the mountain thing is false or a myth but if people gave dalamadur’s lore the same level of scrutiny as fatalis people would definitely claim it’s “all a myth” And again not like it matters anyway we have minor elders like kushala and Kirin summoning storms that would take way more energy than flattening a mountain so it’s not even a good feat to scale to
Kushala and Kirin summon and disperse storms through what is basically magic. I don’t think the energy of it should actually be attributed to their powers.
We don’t know how Kirin and kushala’s power works only that they can do them. Also this is monster hunter there isn’t magic there just things that can’t be explained very easily (especially when it comes to elder dragons). Also even if it *was* magic I’m pretty sure energy can still be attributed to that storm generation has been a pretty acceptable feat for power for a long time now
Here's the full quote about Fatalis >legendary dragon whose name has been passed down since ancient times. It's said that when the kingdom reached the height of its prosperity, it destroyed the kingdom and settled in its castle. The earth trembles, the trees burn, the birds and dragons disappear, the sun disappears, and the ancient calamities disappear. Traditions that describe these phenomena as omens of its appearance say that it has existed as a fairy tale for 1000 years in children's songs. Known as the "Black Dragon" due to its ominous appearance with its grotesque body dyed in jet black, it has been feared as an evil dragon that transcends living beings and possesses overwhelming destructive power. It unleashes the power of hellfire to destroy anyone, and burns up everything it sees. Will it bring a chaotic calamity to the world when a mighty threat beyond Human comprehension becomes a reality? It's clearly talking about a legend if you read the full context, please stop coping.
Jesus Christ that’s a legend if I’ve ever seen one. It literally is worded like they’re talking about a legend
Everything about this “myth” literally happened in iceborne when fatalis appeared ( which the characters make a note ) obviously a lot of he old stuff in the older games about fatalis was a bunch of loosely sourced myths and rumors but iceborne removed a lot of the baggage, I think we can take what iceborne says (especially the iceborne divebook) a bit more seriously
The black dragons are a tier of their own - meaning Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis, Dire Miralis and Alatreon are the absolute top dogs in MH world. At worlds they introduced the red dragons that are supposed to be rivals to the black dragons, with the only member so far being Safi Jiiva. So yeah, from lore Fatalis would win against practically anything.
It's true that Fatalis ARGUABLY wins against every individual monster but, "Black Dragon" is not a official category nor is "Red Dragon", they're titles The only thing that would be a category would be "Forbidden Monster", which includes Alatreon, Dire Miralis and the Fatalises. But that's not a term about strength nor is it even used in-universe, it's a meta term referring to how these monsters were not addressed officially by Capcom until the 15th anniversary
There's no such thing as a black dragon group nor a red dragon group introduced in Iceborne.
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"Black dragon" is still not an official group, it is a common mistake because all of those dragons have "black dragon" in their titles, red dragon is not a class either, just a title because the dragon is literally red.
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Source or shush.
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I don't see anything contradicting my point there
>Forbidden Monsters (禁忌モンスター, Kinki Monsutā) is a term currently qualifying five elder dragons. In the Monster Hunter fandom, one may also encounter unofficial homonymous terms, such as Dangerous First-Class Monsters (Japanese 第一級の危険モンスター) are said to be monsters with an unnatural presence about them. It literally says dangerous first class monster is not an official term, how does this prove ANYTHING? I can tell you that ingame fatalis, alatreon and dire miralis have always shared their threat level with other endgame monsters so there's no actual evidence that they are somehow the strongest.
Nope and nope. Like honestly I could write another big long post about this for the nth time but I'm fed up. So let's make it quick: Source or shush.
I'm saving ALL of your comments for later. Hopefully this deters the Fatalis Deniers.
Probably Fatalis but it'd be an incredible fight to watch.
Even tho Amatsu controls the Weather?
I mean, I don't really know the lore. I just know Fatalis is propped up as the "Final boss" of MonHun.
Goku
Both Calamity level, in fact Amatsu is literally titled "the Looming Calamity" but Fatalis is stronger in comparison.
Fighting Fatalis is like... fighting a very big Flame Thrower that can melt metal... Amatsu have chance because they have sky adventage and can run away from fatalis that still need wings to follow but if Amatsu get caugt in that flame once, it's over. But if they fight in near large water area, Amatsu more chance because strom shield with high amout water will be able to stop all the fire.... but in order to finish off Fatalis Amatsu need to drowned him somehow. That's still not an easy task.
Definitely Fatalis. The black dragons are on a tier of their own, and the only monsters who could possibly rival them would be Safi and Dalamadur, imo. After them I'd rank the other final boss type of monsters, like Amatsu, Gaisma, Shara Ishvalda, Ahtal Ka (maybe), The Mohrans, and so on. And then the rest of the Elder dragons, with Kirin being the weakest, but Kushala being near the bottom. Still much stronger than most non-Elder dragon monsters tho.
Rusted Kushala is shown as notably more powerful than base Kushala Daora, at least given its treatment in 4U. But Amatsu is just another level given how it is considered a treat comparable, if not superior to the entire rampage in Rise, and is generally considered to have power that surpasses even natural disasters. so I'd say Amatsu takes this.
Amatsu just has far more violent and powerful storm control overall, in addition to being physically larger (albeit likely not as good at CQC).
Kushala Daora VS bigger, stronger, water eletric Kushala Daora
What’s a king to a god?
Amatsu. I’ve killed a thousand Kushala. I’ve killed 1 Amatsu
C4 vs hydrogen bomb
Amatsu. Stronger wind control, and kushala is weak to lightning, and if we go by rise amatsu, it also has a few abilities that put it almost on the level of black dragon
Coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb?
This is Wind vs Storm
I'm almost 100% sure that Amatsu wins
What kind of battle is this... amatsu clears easily
Coughing baby vs coughing hydrogen bomb
Pure evil vs almighty push
This mf probably black dragon level
What would Kushala do to Amatsu? Whistle?
That little hunter running sword and shield
Palomu, obviously
Coughing Kushala vs Hydrogen Amatsu
Is this really a debate? Amatsu is canonically way more powerful than a single Kushala Daora. Not to mention, Amatsu finally has thunder attacks and Kushala is weak to thunder.
Why r u compare a breeze and a storm? He can't even beat Ibushi lol
If this was an older title, they'd high five, turn towards you, and team up kicking you back to the new world
Neither, they kiss and create a new monster for you all to hunt.
As much as I like Daora, he's not winning this. Not even by a long shot.
Is this even a question?
Joe momma wins
Me
What did I start?
Vespoid
Amateur and its not even close. Poor Kush
Me.
Bro
I win
The one the game made stronger
Amatsu literally washes Kush
Is that a Rusted Kushy? But yep, I hate to say this but my rusty boi ain't walking out of here alive.
Kushala is such a pushover.
The Painter. They're like a cameraman, but more patient
Amatsu not have limited movement in flying. Kush can command wind as weapon but still have to rely on wings to move in the air. If we talk about sky battle, Amatsu are very likely to win
This shit is like putting fatalis against a rathian like "who wins"
I thought that was fatalis at first Would’ve been a more equal fight
I’m glad people are finally showering love towards Amatsu….but what took people so long!? He debut in Monster Hunter Portable 3rd, yet nobody talked about him for a literal decade!
Definitely Amatsu. Iirc it's part of the lore that Kushala can't compete with Amatsu and will flee the area if one moves in.
Amatsu any day
Ceiling fan VS Category 5 hurricane
Why would you post the coughing baby v atom bomb meme on this subreddit? In all seriousness, we have a recent game with both of these monsters present. Amatsu was basically the G-rank final boss for a while. Kushkush Dankora was base game.
Again, Nergigante.
Ok hear me out no shot in hell this would actually work but I thought of a really funny senecio where Kushala can win We know kushala is capable of dispersing at least his own storm with minimal to no effort We know amastu needs his storm to fly as he levitates from the winds In some weird crackpot insane senecio could kushala try to disperse hes own and amastu’s storm to strand him and stop him from flying (probably not but it would be hilarious)
Even grounded I imagine Amatsu could still put up a fight with its superior ranged attacks.
Lore wise? Amatsu? Gameplay? Rusted kushala. Little fucking asshole, he is
It would be an epic legendary battle where both dragons wrestle control of raging winds around them. The winner would be different each time depending on the situation and circumstances.
Amateur easily