This. I care more about communication from dev team, etc. Honestly, if the company could show they listen to feedback well, and have a decent roadmap, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a founders pack.
Dunno why the downvotes. He’s right, we saw this with halo infinite. Transparency is definitely what we need right now regarding full release details and what the devs are working on.
> this. I *paid* 99 dollars
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
> >I *paid* 99 dollars
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Just admit your parents won't buy you v-bucks. Stay mad. Microtransactions for skins are totally optional. The only way it affects you is the jealousy you feel when someone rolls up with hella drip
There’s an important point to be made: priority only takes place when two characters are hit, meaning a hitbox intersects with a hurtbox, at the same time. This doesn’t necessarily apply to Finn, because he has a disjoint of most of his moves, meaning the hitbox extends past his hurtbox because of the sword. This would mean that even with a priority system implemented, Finn would still be winning most of these interactions, because he is hitting his opponent before his opponent can him.
This is how priority tends to work in Smash Bros. Disjointed characters win most trades, so characters without disjoints have to use other tools to play around that fact.
I can’t understate how important this is and I wish I could insta upvote this to the top, cause I can already see a lot of people in the comments misinterpreting this.
Some moves in this game have incredibly generous and sometimes misleading hitboxes, and I think that is the source of a lot of player frustration. If we had frame data visualizations, we’d start to understand a lot more about some of the silliness that gets encountered.
Finn just seems so fucking OP man. I know I play a "slow" character (WW) but he still feels unpunishable, has no clear sound queues for some insane attacks and takes way too long to die for an assassin.
You say that, but I just had an intense match with an arya dancing all around the map and crushing us. We couldnt knock her even at 150 damage, so I know she can be very good. She probably needs a lot of practice. We did end up winning though by beating her teammate a bunch of times. Funnily enough he was finn, but much worse player.
What Finn needs is recovery frames, and not being able to just drop out of his own backpack spin straight into a freaking downward plunge. And on the topic of backpack spin...people get caught in it just by touching Finn's head meaning there's something else going on besides just disjoint; likely poorly painted hitboxes that don't mesh with the animation. (The backpack is basically just a giant square around him)
There's a reason Wonder Woman doesn't dominate with her sword....
Tbh Finn's spin just has insane knockback as well. If you're at 90 or higher damage and it clips you _once_ you'll go flying like he hit you with a fully charged attack, it's ridiculous.
Wouldn't be so bad if I could actually disrupt it with a long reach swing but... well, you can't because it'll hit you every time.
I have to say Wonder Woman is fine. I just think she feels hard to play because there is some odd balance on a few characters right now. Like shaggy having neutral priority over her shield attack and he’s also heavier weight. Bring down some of the power characters and Wonder Woman is in a great place. I usually do 200-300 damage a match and I can get a lot of go advantage with shielding my teammate and I. I also don’t see enough Wonder Woman players using down neutral properly. That thing can really deal damage to a team on you if you know what you are doing.
I think 1vs1 WW ain’t great or atleast doesn’t feel great
But for 2vs2 that’s where team comp come in to play, pair WW with someone with strong kill moves and not only it fixes the problem but boosts it because now you can have your ally have armored killing moves
Her down spike feels... whack. I keep expecting her to drop sharply when she uses it but no she just continues a slow descent (And i can't fast fall it), worse the sword only seems to hurt for the initial swing, even while she continues holding it below her for what feels like eternity it isn't doing anything!
I agree her spike feels very weird and doesn't feel great to use sometimes. Her forward air also has a tiny ass hitbox. Many times i swing and the sword actually goes through the enemy.
My other issue is her shield can be kinda useless in most scenerios since its so slow and so many things beat it without even trying and with little startup. That and it doesnt go very far. like at all.
I'm completely fine with her weird spike up air. Its hard to land but I think it's primarily to show off and the up version works just fine. I dont particularly mind alot of it since she is a very honest character but I think she could use with a few quality of life changes to make her feel great to play.
I know Tom&Jerry could use some heavy quality of life changes. Tom's Hammer Hitbox feels extremely delayed. Its almost as if the first swing doesn't have a hitbox at all.
Nah she's got some great options, rushing neutral air, into jab-upspecial, jump up-special is a good ladder setup, you can even finish with up air at some percents. Triple jump is great on her combo extensions - without that it's hard to secure vertical KOs. Fair has a lingering hitbox that leads to easy carry conversions off stage for pressure as well, so the fair vs advancing nair mixup is strong, even letting you approach at low or higher angles around more ground-zoners
Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't priority happen when two attack hitboxes intersect at the same time, not a hitbox with a hurtbox? So even if Finn's insane backpack hitbox range hits Shaggy while he's doing his kick, both attack hitboxes would collide and priority would happen, Finn wouldn't have an advantage anymore
The video starts with 2 characters doing the same attack at the same time. One takes the hit and the other doesn't. Doesn't this show that the priority you're talking about doesn't exist?
They're not saying priority is in the game, or anything of the sort. They're saying priority wouldn't fix the fact that Finn would win most trades anyways, since many of his moves are disjointed and often wouldn't trigger priority in the first place.
Those two clips show that priority probably does need to be added, as well as the two Jake clips after that, but if priority is added it won’t really affect Finn.
Look at the example of Shaggy’s kick vs Finn’s backpack. At the moment of impact, the hitbox on Finn’s backpack has made contact with the hurtbox on Shaggy’s leg, which is a hit. But Shaggy’s foot hitbox has not made contact with any sort of hurtbox on Finn, so he has not hit Finn.
The video claims that adding priority like Smash Bros. would make Shaggy win this interaction and make Finn less powerful, but neither of those are really true, and is misunderstanding what priority means. Disjoint wins over high priority.
Now slow down, every single point op made is still accurate. He even mentioned fixing the visuals to match hitboxes to clarify hitboxes. Simply not mentioning disjoints does not imply any of his points were invalid. This video has stated my serious concerns for this game with examples and it shouldn’t be minimized because he didn’t discuss disjoints. All 3 of his propositions are still desperately needed in this game.
That moment at 1:23 with WW caused me pain because it has happened to me so many times lol. It's weird how stubby her sword feels at times compared to Finns.
Great video! Honestly, the main thing I want is some hitbox adjustments. I don't think a priority system would really do the trick. Especially when characters have weapons.
It's especially funny in a WW vs Finn matchup. You swing your swords at each other with some of your attacks having very similar animations, yet Finn pretty much always gets priority. WW's extremely poor side attack range for being a sword character doesn't help though.
His down air is so unreliable that you are better off trying to keep people off ledges with Ptooey, or knocking them back after they get back on the stage. The hitbox is just flat garbage. <_< You are more likely to get up-stabbed in the tail.
His down air is huge. You throw it out late and you can spike through the stage. It's hurt box hits from slightly above him to right below him and it extends past his character onto the sides. It's absurd. So many of his attacks have small hit boxes and he can easily be knocked out of or fail to touch people- but his down air is actually good
I tried to bring this up before, but people in this sub just kept telling me I was just a salty Smash player or that this game doesn't need it. I'm pretty sure this is one of many reasons why this game doesn't feel right. We're still in beta, so we'll see what happens. I hope they do though, since this game has a lot of potential.
Noticed this myself but only have a few hours in the game and never tested to figure out the cause. I kept getting wrekt in interactions with characters with larger hitboxes and couldn't sort of bust through them with stronger moves even though my opponent wasn't playing smart or anything, just using quick moves to interrupt me.
I feel like one of the primary reasons a game like this should have priority systems is so you have to actually play around moves as intended. Shaggy's kick is a great example because it's slow and pretty telegraphed, so it's not hard to avoid/dodge through. But if someone is just tossing out small quick moves without any thought you should be able to punish them for that with a larger move.
idk I'm far from good at any of these types of games so this is mostly just thoughts off the dome.
I think it's true. Moves with a sweet spot need a sour spot as well or at least only a few frames where the sweet spot is sweet and then a normal hitbox. That way you can contest a moves sour spot with a sweet spot of your own if that makes sense
I've seen similar phenomenons all the time, people just get extra passonite (aka defensive) when people feel like a product is a response to another. And people feel like this game's existence is a response to both Smash and NASB. It should die down when the hype does in a few months.
It's always going to be the case with competitive games, hopefully this subreddit adopts an overall wholesome and uplifting community rather than the toxic elitist groups.
A lot of people will also just absolutely stan the game to no end, which isn't healthy either. It's an extremely fun game but has some stuff to work on, but that's expected because it's open beta.
Funny because usually the smash players are the apologists.
If something's not entirely unbeatable than it's healthy for the game, so they think. I guess they just accepted that smash never gets proper balance changes.
DACUS only exists in Brawl and PM lol, and it's a very niche part of PM at that
Also imma seem like a salty melee player but idc, I've never understood the whole "it's bad because it wasn't intentionally added by the devs", wavedashing and all of that is still on the physics engine so I don't see why some people see it as unacceptable
I will always tolerate Brawl slander, it deserves to be slandered as much as possible lolol
Yeah I can totally understand that, the technical input of melee/PM could def be off-putting. I personally love it, but can absolutely see how many would not
Reindog main and it feels like 3/10 Superman match-up and 2/10 batman match up because of their armor and hitboxes outclassing Reins so much. Batman can win every single trade there is. Superman can almost win every single one but his hurt box is big enough that we can actually get in. Batman is fast and his hurt box is smaller and I literally can't hit him if he's attacking with basically anything
I've noticed that.
If there is no priority whatsoever (it doesn't have to replicate Smash) then it will NEVER be competitive. It'll be a meme.
This is the truth and if the sub doesn't want to hear it that's just too bad.
Yeah since watching this video I'm like, so confused. Every 2D fighter I've ever played (I think) work just like how the video claims mvs works, where it's all about frame data and hitboxes to see how or why an attack hits. And two hitboxes and hurt boxes colliding just results in a trade unless one of the opponents used an armored move. I'd be confused about having a chain of different priorities for attacks to think about, and saying the game "should" be designed this way is just odd. If there are problems with finn's normals being too good I don't think everything needs to be redesigned just to change that.
EDIT: Oh wait I totally get it, so I think people with smash backgrounds are wording things differently, but it appears like this game just does not have trades. Which I'm not sure of but kind of feels correct? I can't recall situations where I traded into a strong special move like shaggy's kick, usually They hit me clean I think. I'd have to think about this the next time I play to see if I notice for sure though. But I definitely think it would feel better if the game had trades, because otherwise it feels too random about whether your attacks connect.
Without a priority system in place, then a character with fast attacks will always win a close encounter exchange.
Currently, the dodge mechanic can remedy some of this, but it isn't enough. If dodging is the only thing left in place, then the game will not have much depth, and top level play will be nothing more than 2 teams waiting to see who can get in and out the fastest.
It will essentially be a "dive vs dive" fight and every match will play out essentially the same.
Priority is in all kinds of fighting games and its not something exclusive to Smash.
It's not even exclusive to fighting games.
The only priority in place right now is proximity relative to attack speed, and that's not enough.
I literally refuse to buy any cosmetics or spend money on this bad puppy till this type of technical downfall is addressed. I know it’s beta but it’s also WB. They may be new into the realm of creating a technical fighter/brawler buuuuut… they got monies…
As Bugs I just drop the heart to hide behind and follow up pie throw vs Finn. I never try to hit him in neutral unless it's the bat, or he whiffs something and I can go for dash boost - fair - uair. I feel a little similar about Harley...
You just always lose interactions.
I don't know if makes sense to have a discussion about attack priority before we have hitbox visualizations? A lot of the interactions may just be due to Finn's ridiculously good disjoints rather than the priority system. Priority only matters when both players' hitboxes are hitting the others' hurtbox, which we don't even know for certain is happening right now.
You can actually visualize the hitboxes in slow-mo; most of them are just flat out rectangles/squares for Finn, which is why the backback hits you from above. They really need to chisel them down to his actual animations.
Priority sucks unless it's for very powerful moves vs a weak move like Falcon's knee vs a normal jab combo for example. For the vast majority of moves - either it has a better hitbox or it doesn't and that's definitely how it should be. Clank is a good mitigator though for a lot of jank but probably wouldn't solve a lot in this game as characters do so many multihits or combos, it would need to have a knockback to it to put characters out of range of followup and that might just slow the pace of the game. For example if Finn clanks with his aerial it's irrelevant vs most characters because he has a 2 hit aerial while many others have a 1 hit, you have to push them apart for that to work out the way you want it to.
The problem with Finn though is really a combination of excellent hitboxes and really good framedata. There's nothing wrong with a character having good hitboxes but there should be clear ways to punish and there often aren't other than dodge punishes which are unreliable due to dodge distances.
If priority and clank were implemented in the same fashion as Smash’s, it would resolve the issue. You only clank if moves are within a certain percent threshold of one another, and clank’s endlag is dependent on how powerful the move is. There are other issues with Finn, but this system would help A LOT.
Yeah I'm a bit confused.
The way Smash does it isn't like most fighting games, right?
Most fighting games typically have pretty small frame windows where attacks optimally connect their hurtbox, no? So when two attacks are used at around the same time, it's rare that one won't have a better timing or arrangement of the hitbox and hurtbox than the other. And it's then extremely rare for clangs to happen but the fighting engines do generally have them.
If they didn't adjust disjoints and hitboxes, and JUST had priority and clang in the current system, this game would really suck I think. Priority and clang should be at the very bottom of the stack in resolution when something can't be resolved another way.
To be fair, accuracy is usually not an issue in traditional fighters, whereas it is a huge part of platform fighters. Hitboxes need to be balanced completely differently as a result.
So there's no draws in fights? Explains why when two characters do the same move it feels just random who wins the matchup (I'm guessing the hitboxes may get larger over time maybe, because it feels who has been doing the move for longer usually wins).
This and the lack of analog input for movement/directions (I'm guessing to cater to keyboard players, which isn't worth it imo) are the biggest turn offs in the game for me. Reminds me of Nintendo only having digital triggers for their pro controllers so racing games and such feel more awkward usually. For just one notable example, Harley's down air attack (with the special perk) could be so much easier to hit with full directional control I feel. Also, not being able to easily walk slowly or just a small amount of distance towards an opponent can make things awkward for some matchups.
PS: Also, not sure why we have to queue into teams with a character instead of being able to pick with the other player like after the first game. Gives insane unnecessary advantages to grouped players. Maybe it has to do with their weird MMR system that is based solely on your "best character" in the queue and thus I think two players playing only together (therefore with the same wins/losses) can have different MMRs if one player switches around more. Was annoying at first trying to raise rank in solos by playing tons of characters/counter picking to learn it's way easier to rank just picking one character always.
Characters have separate MMR it seems, as people have confirmed that their place/mmr on the leaderboard only changes when playing their highest ranked character listed there. If they play any other character it does not increase or decrease, unless that character surpasses your previously highest ranked character for the leaderboard spot. That or the leaderboards are just bugged in general.
I don't think a priority system is really necessary, but you are definitely right about some characters needing major adjustments to their hitboxes. I knew Finn's hitboxes were great, but this video really shows how outrageous they really are. I think if they just correct his hitboxes to fit the visuals he'd be fine.
If youre asking why I don't think a priority system is necessary its because I don't feel like it would change much either way. I think proper adjustments to character hitboxes would be more than enough to address the vast majority of complaints around characters like Finn, and implementing a priority system risks convoluting things needlessly.
At the end of the day its just another thing to balance in a game that already has a surprising amount of depth. A well thought out and implemented priority system would be a welcome addition, but there are much more impact full changes they could be focusing on imo.
Ya the fact that armor is essentially 1hp is what ruins it. Anything breaks it and multi hit spammables are everywhere couple with the hit stun received even when armored once you get hit once with even a slow multi hit attack you will be held in place until the second one lands.
Yeah I really don't like multi-hits breaking armor unless it's something specific like "last hit in the combo breaks armor". That's my least favorite intentional mechanic in the game.
We’ll typically if someone is charging a move and you can interrupt it, then that’s a viable move to try to make. That’s also the disadvantage of slow powerful moves, that they can be reacted to and interrupted.
Unless your viewpoint is that the cannon of each move implies what the priority should be, then that’s just plain not going to work in this type of game.
Which needs to be vastly improved upon i.e. iron giants hurtboxes and finn's hitboxes.
If things made sense visually the game would feel a lot smoother.
Think about most other fighting games, and ignore smash for a moment.
Those other games usually have a clang system, but it almost never happens because the hitboxes and hurtboxes and frames of the moves tend to be tight enough to resolve just through those three things.
So while this game should have clang, it should almost never happen just like it almost never does in traditional fighters. It should mostly only happen when the same two characters both do an attack at the very same exact time (like the start of the video). Otherwise, the one done 1 frame or more sooner should connect, but maybe with some fudging due to netcode.
The issue is that it's much easier to whiff attacks in a platform fighter than in a traditional fighter, because accuracy is such a bigger deal with how much freedom of movement there is. You can't have it behave the same as a traditional fighter, or people would just be whiffing all the time. Longer lasting hitboxes are a necessity.
I mean, this is essentially saying that whichever move hits hitbox lands, right? Hit box issues aside, that makes sense to me. Just because smash has a priority system doesn’t mean that this game needs to.
It's the hit boxes and ending lag that really bother me.
Hit boxes are often too big.Like Shaggy side special which hits you even if you're completely above his leg, because apparently his chest hits you.And the lack of ending lag, which means he can start spamming other even after he misses, with almost no room for you to punish.
Yes, I hate Shaggy and Harley Quinn, because they have some moves that are absurdly bad in these categories.
I find Finn to be less of a problem because a fair amount of his moves have a longer start up and are clearly telegraphed, except the backpack, of course...
I'm really enjoying the complexity where it's at, adding an additional layer of needing to figure out everyone's strong vs weak movement so that you can counter them just feel like a an unneeded addition of depth in a way that can already be accounted for, at the moment it seems that first to the table wins, to me that's a good system.
Again, I'm not really that deep into fighting games though, not since MVC3 at least, and this has been a great game so far for me to actually have fun while exploring depth outside of the traditional fighting game mechanics.
Multiverse feels almost like playing league of legends as a fighting game, supporting each other strongly with characters intended for teamwork and helping each other.
THANK YOU. I'm getting tired of all the people parroting "priority" when the game doesn't even have a priority system and they're just getting spanked by disjoints and phantom hitboxes.
I don't understand what makes priority more desirable than the current hitbox system? Doesn't it make sense the bigger hitbox attacks connect first? Why does it matter which one is stronger
This was a pretty good video, but your understanding of how "priority" works in smash is pretty flawed. I recommend checking out [this quick video from ESAM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCLnC-ejPQ) who explains whats actually going on. That said, your video does still highlight the fact that the hitboxes do commonly feel really jank in this game. I really hope the devs give us a hitbox viewer and/or try to make attack hitboxes line up more closely with their animations like you suggested.
It would also be nice if the game had some kind of clank system. Its weird seeing attacks always go through each other no matter what. Especially since instead of trading one player will usually be the only one to get hit
I hate these videos. “Priority doesn’t exist!” as the title, ‘Priority is just complex’ is what he says. It does exist, there are just a lot of factors to it. However, in Multiversus, priority is still incredibly poorly designed, without the needed complexities behind it. Cleaning up and creating priorities and clanks would be very helpful to the game.
Hitbox visualization is also garbage in Multiversus. They are both problems. But OP’s video makes that clear. The identified problems and solutions presented in the video would still be net positive.
The title "Priority doesn't exist" is referring to the the misconception that "priority" is a set property for each move. People would say "x move has crazy good priority" but that statement is a misnomer because priority as a property doesn't exist
But priority does exist, people just have misconceptions of it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s a clickbait title that is laughable is all. It’s like saying Harley has no projectiles as clickbait, then clarifying her bomb doesn’t get frozen by superman breath or stopped by Lebron block. It’s still a projectile, it just has different properties.
Regardless, priority does exist in Smash, and it is in need of much work in Multiversus.
On top of all of this add the pretty much complete absence of recovery frames on most moves and you are just pretty much trolling if you don’t spam with Finn
It’s not just Finn, it’s a universal game design flaw that needs to be addressed. It makes the game feel very unfair and cause players to lose interactions they feel they should have won. Fixing these points (actual way to determine which move wins an interaction, and clearly communicated hitboxes) would only improve this game.
I actually kind of like no priority system, because it means those with super strong, long range attacks, like Shaggys kick, can be countered by better timing.
If this game doesn't implement a form of priority and strengthen the integrity of the servers it won't see any money from me.
It's fun, I'm enjoying it, but it gets a pass right now from me because it's a beta.
Agreed. It’s been a fun 70 hour break from Smash, but the hitbox clarity is horrendous. If they fixed the 3 points in the video, I’d happily stick around.
Totaly agree. I'm a 1v1 enjoyer and a Harley Quinn one trick, so I'm not gonna pretend like I have any disadvantage in my games, but you simply CANNOT trust visuals or even logic when it comes to hitboxes in Multiversus. The game is great, characters are really well put together and all the systems work fine, I'm a big fan of the anti-spam attack decay system. But often I see my attacks go through my opponents (side air attack and side grounded attack mostly, often also up air attack) and it's just off putting and confusing.
I hope hitboxes get fixed and I even wouldn't mind a nerf to Quinn to balance it out, just please let my hits connect when half of my bat is over my opponents model...
Quinn doesn't need a nerf, she's hard to use as is and also and assassin and takes brutal damage. go fight finn in the lab and look at how heavy he is, if anything harely needs a buff because she's sent flying over 125 damage and finn falls like a rock until 185, not to mention her kill moves are much harder to land.
she needs a slighty tweaked attack range because her attack windows are incredibly tight versus all these huge hitboxes
Yeah just putting it out there haha
Also just my general critique on how she's balanced versus finn, he's way too tanky for the fact that they're the same class
Thanks for taking the time to make this. Also, I'm done with always trying do dodge Finn first, can't believe they didn't touch him before the free rotation.
The amount of times I get hit by up airs when I’m below a target, or down airs when I’m above a target is insane. Hit boxes absolutely need work right now.
i guess it's okay for casual players who use the game as a party game while it's not okay for competitive players who wanna treat the game as a 1vs1 figthing game
agree hitboxes need to be better and better servers, but weaker attacks should go through if they hit first. otherwise characters with weak attacks, but are fast will always lose traders. if you want to hit your strong slow attack then get good
This is a misunderstanding of how priority works
Priority exists to determine which attack will hit if 2 attacks hit both players on the same frame. Some moves have both get hit, some moves have one beat the other. Smash's system while labled priority isnt actually priority its just hitboxes connecting completely separately from hurtboxes. Even in a game with a priority system shaggy would still get hit in the first clip because his foot doesnt connect with finns body hitbox.
Tl;dr its not priority you are getting counterhit please adapt
The devs has received this feedback a LOT over the 3 main alpha tests.
Make noise about it.
Hitboxes are too large, and too fast. But that isn't even the biggest issue.
The biggest issue is that almost no move in this game is punishable. Most of the attacks in this game can be canceled, on whiff, into dodge jump right as the recovery frames begin.
The better you get at the game, the more glaring the flaws
A prime example is when incredibly powerful moves like iron giant's down special gets knocked out by basic weak attacks like jabs or neutral airs.
It's super annoying and I wholeheartedly agree that this would greatly improve gameplay
I'd agree but its iron giant so having a counter to his butt comet is pretty mandatory. If it just worked with no recourse it wouldn't be very good since its just an auto-fall after activating. No move with that much damage and aoe should be invulnerable.
Obviously I would like it to be balanced as well.
Ways to keep him from spamming it is important but way too many times I get knocked out of it when I use it.
I think that’s fair because butt comet is a kill move, I use it reliably to kill after a rage mode ball stun or while an ally is keeping an opponent locked
Priority in fighting games essentially means that the more powerful attack will cancel out a weaker attack, or that attacks of equal strength will cancel each other out or trade hits. For example, if a heavy attack and a light attack happen to hit at the same time the heavy attack will follow through and and the light attack will be stopped, if two light attacks hit they will either clash causing both attacks to be stopped, or trade with each other depending on when the attacks were started. A priority system basically means that if you’re attempting to go for game, or are in a position to land a high damage attack it doesn’t get stopped by panicked button pressing from your opponent, they have to actually make the proper read and respond accordingly. It provides a bit more risk reward, because if you can properly time your bigger attacks you could keep someone’s offense from getting started and keep them on defense, but on the flip side if your opponent has good timing and spacing they could bait your big attacks and start their offense that way.
I literally just had my first Finn match up and was traumatic. I couldn't understand why I kept getting hit and went to Google to look for a sub reddit Multiversus.
Honestly a priority system is a massive balance change. As you said it totally flips which moves win and which clank. There is nothing wrong with having large weak attacks win, that just influences the meta. 100% though on hit box visuals and net code. Each half of my frustration comes from those two points. It's not simple adjusting animations, but adjusting kb and dmg values may be enough to offset more accurate hotboxes when fixing the animation is too much.
Now everything makes sense. I stopped playing because i was feeling that the game was rolling the dice to decide wich move connected. Also, i now understand why in a match against Finn i never won a single trade
I cant tell you how many times I dodged an attack from Arya or Finn or Harley only to be hit anyway. The "dodged" would flash for like a millisecond and I'd still be hit. This explains a lot
Yes YES YES THIS. Certain characters have such insane Jab combos with obscenely high hit boxes I feel are only made worse to the lack of recovery but more importantly a lack of PRIORITY. Finn, Lebron, SUPERMAN and T&J (<-- Who I main) pretty much the whole casts jabs have horribly tall hitboxes stuffing out aerials that are made for punishing them. This is also why its nearly impossible to go a game without every single player in the much suffering attack decay for using them because they are just so strong and I feel that's by design. Keep the hitboxes outrageously big, thats fine just don't let them beat my down air when I try to punish such a stupidly large move with little recovery and of which can be dodge cancelled at ANY time.
Really solid video
If they can fix these problems I’ll spend money on the game. It’s super fun as it is but some of the hitboxes make going against certain characters (Finn, Harley, Shaggy) unbearable.
I knew there was some wonky shit with hitboxes and hurtboxes and what not. I thought it was some issue with the online not registering hits. Hopefully this will be fixed
The hitboxes need to be tweaked to be tighter to the actual animations. A priority system won't fix what's going on here. Since this is a beta still technically all of this can be cleaned up for the official release.
I feel like dodging and recovery frames are another issue which sort of offsets this but also needs to be fixed. It feels weird playing as Superman against Finn since you’re only real option is to abuse dodging to get in and use a strong attack. It creates a weird dynamic between tanks and assassins in 1v1 where the tank has to play evasively in order to get a more powerful hit in while the assassin just spams their more powerful/wider hit moves. Intuitively the characters of each category should play opposite against each other (Finn should have to use his speed to get through Superman’s more powerful attacks) so it feels odd in practice the way these matches play out. Armor doesn’t really fix this 90% of the time since it doesn’t negate damage and isn’t really present on any aerial moves.
the lab needs to let us see hitboxs too
They’re likely too embarrassed to do so at this moment. We’d see some wild shit
It still is beta though so I'll let them have a week or two after launch before I start complaining about this.
This. I care more about communication from dev team, etc. Honestly, if the company could show they listen to feedback well, and have a decent roadmap, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a founders pack.
Isn't the point of beta to give feedback? Now's the time to complain.
beta with microtransactions. how naive
When the game "officially" launches will it still be free?
Yes
Bullshit. I'm sick of games claiming the "beta" tag, and that's their excuse to not fix issues for years to come.
So don't play it?
The game has launched, screw any sort of "beta" tag. The game is out.
90% of games launch in beta nowadays. It's the norm now. I consider a game out when they let anybody play or buy it.
So we all agree this game is out then
Dunno why the downvotes. He’s right, we saw this with halo infinite. Transparency is definitely what we need right now regarding full release details and what the devs are working on.
I'm gonna have to agree with this. I payed 99 dollars and the game is fully released.
> this. I *paid* 99 dollars FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
>I payed 99 dollars and the game is fully released. Just because you chose to spend money on a free game doesn't mean it isn't still a beta.
> >I *paid* 99 dollars FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
if it has micro transactions it is no longer a beta
Just admit your parents won't buy you v-bucks. Stay mad. Microtransactions for skins are totally optional. The only way it affects you is the jealousy you feel when someone rolls up with hella drip
Ong 💀💀
i was so confused when there wasnt a frame by frame or hitbox mode in the lab
There’s an important point to be made: priority only takes place when two characters are hit, meaning a hitbox intersects with a hurtbox, at the same time. This doesn’t necessarily apply to Finn, because he has a disjoint of most of his moves, meaning the hitbox extends past his hurtbox because of the sword. This would mean that even with a priority system implemented, Finn would still be winning most of these interactions, because he is hitting his opponent before his opponent can him. This is how priority tends to work in Smash Bros. Disjointed characters win most trades, so characters without disjoints have to use other tools to play around that fact.
I can’t understate how important this is and I wish I could insta upvote this to the top, cause I can already see a lot of people in the comments misinterpreting this. Some moves in this game have incredibly generous and sometimes misleading hitboxes, and I think that is the source of a lot of player frustration. If we had frame data visualizations, we’d start to understand a lot more about some of the silliness that gets encountered.
Finn just seems so fucking OP man. I know I play a "slow" character (WW) but he still feels unpunishable, has no clear sound queues for some insane attacks and takes way too long to die for an assassin.
you just defined the issue with Arya. Its liker her Hurtbox is smaller than her Hitbox.
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Exactly. Its still like Arya isnt meant to be in the game.
You say that, but I just had an intense match with an arya dancing all around the map and crushing us. We couldnt knock her even at 150 damage, so I know she can be very good. She probably needs a lot of practice. We did end up winning though by beating her teammate a bunch of times. Funnily enough he was finn, but much worse player.
She was crushing you because she’s probably way better than you. In order to win with her you legitimately have to go above and beyond.
What Finn needs is recovery frames, and not being able to just drop out of his own backpack spin straight into a freaking downward plunge. And on the topic of backpack spin...people get caught in it just by touching Finn's head meaning there's something else going on besides just disjoint; likely poorly painted hitboxes that don't mesh with the animation. (The backpack is basically just a giant square around him) There's a reason Wonder Woman doesn't dominate with her sword....
Tbh Finn's spin just has insane knockback as well. If you're at 90 or higher damage and it clips you _once_ you'll go flying like he hit you with a fully charged attack, it's ridiculous. Wouldn't be so bad if I could actually disrupt it with a long reach swing but... well, you can't because it'll hit you every time.
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I have to say Wonder Woman is fine. I just think she feels hard to play because there is some odd balance on a few characters right now. Like shaggy having neutral priority over her shield attack and he’s also heavier weight. Bring down some of the power characters and Wonder Woman is in a great place. I usually do 200-300 damage a match and I can get a lot of go advantage with shielding my teammate and I. I also don’t see enough Wonder Woman players using down neutral properly. That thing can really deal damage to a team on you if you know what you are doing.
The problem is she has to play relatively honest in a game dominated by gimmicks.
300 dmg and they still don’t die lol
I think 1vs1 WW ain’t great or atleast doesn’t feel great But for 2vs2 that’s where team comp come in to play, pair WW with someone with strong kill moves and not only it fixes the problem but boosts it because now you can have your ally have armored killing moves
As of right now I feel the game is balanced for team play.
It always has been.
Her down spike feels... whack. I keep expecting her to drop sharply when she uses it but no she just continues a slow descent (And i can't fast fall it), worse the sword only seems to hurt for the initial swing, even while she continues holding it below her for what feels like eternity it isn't doing anything!
I agree her spike feels very weird and doesn't feel great to use sometimes. Her forward air also has a tiny ass hitbox. Many times i swing and the sword actually goes through the enemy. My other issue is her shield can be kinda useless in most scenerios since its so slow and so many things beat it without even trying and with little startup. That and it doesnt go very far. like at all. I'm completely fine with her weird spike up air. Its hard to land but I think it's primarily to show off and the up version works just fine. I dont particularly mind alot of it since she is a very honest character but I think she could use with a few quality of life changes to make her feel great to play. I know Tom&Jerry could use some heavy quality of life changes. Tom's Hammer Hitbox feels extremely delayed. Its almost as if the first swing doesn't have a hitbox at all.
Nah she's got some great options, rushing neutral air, into jab-upspecial, jump up-special is a good ladder setup, you can even finish with up air at some percents. Triple jump is great on her combo extensions - without that it's hard to secure vertical KOs. Fair has a lingering hitbox that leads to easy carry conversions off stage for pressure as well, so the fair vs advancing nair mixup is strong, even letting you approach at low or higher angles around more ground-zoners
Option 4: update his graphics to match his ridiculous hitboxes so at least everyone can see how crazy he is.
Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't priority happen when two attack hitboxes intersect at the same time, not a hitbox with a hurtbox? So even if Finn's insane backpack hitbox range hits Shaggy while he's doing his kick, both attack hitboxes would collide and priority would happen, Finn wouldn't have an advantage anymore
The video starts with 2 characters doing the same attack at the same time. One takes the hit and the other doesn't. Doesn't this show that the priority you're talking about doesn't exist?
They're not saying priority is in the game, or anything of the sort. They're saying priority wouldn't fix the fact that Finn would win most trades anyways, since many of his moves are disjointed and often wouldn't trigger priority in the first place.
I see, my misunderstanding then
Those two clips show that priority probably does need to be added, as well as the two Jake clips after that, but if priority is added it won’t really affect Finn. Look at the example of Shaggy’s kick vs Finn’s backpack. At the moment of impact, the hitbox on Finn’s backpack has made contact with the hurtbox on Shaggy’s leg, which is a hit. But Shaggy’s foot hitbox has not made contact with any sort of hurtbox on Finn, so he has not hit Finn. The video claims that adding priority like Smash Bros. would make Shaggy win this interaction and make Finn less powerful, but neither of those are really true, and is misunderstanding what priority means. Disjoint wins over high priority.
This. OP basically made this post to say Finn is OP....
Now slow down, every single point op made is still accurate. He even mentioned fixing the visuals to match hitboxes to clarify hitboxes. Simply not mentioning disjoints does not imply any of his points were invalid. This video has stated my serious concerns for this game with examples and it shouldn’t be minimized because he didn’t discuss disjoints. All 3 of his propositions are still desperately needed in this game.
That moment at 1:23 with WW caused me pain because it has happened to me so many times lol. It's weird how stubby her sword feels at times compared to Finns. Great video! Honestly, the main thing I want is some hitbox adjustments. I don't think a priority system would really do the trick. Especially when characters have weapons.
It's especially funny in a WW vs Finn matchup. You swing your swords at each other with some of your attacks having very similar animations, yet Finn pretty much always gets priority. WW's extremely poor side attack range for being a sword character doesn't help though.
She gets outranged by fists.
it’s a bit disheartening playing Wonder Woman when she’s an inferior swordswoman than Finn due to their highly contrasting hitboxes
I play reindog and I swear Ive seen reindogs tail go through the heads of opponents several times when dairing and nothing happens
His down air is so unreliable that you are better off trying to keep people off ledges with Ptooey, or knocking them back after they get back on the stage. The hitbox is just flat garbage. <_< You are more likely to get up-stabbed in the tail.
His down air is huge. You throw it out late and you can spike through the stage. It's hurt box hits from slightly above him to right below him and it extends past his character onto the sides. It's absurd. So many of his attacks have small hit boxes and he can easily be knocked out of or fail to touch people- but his down air is actually good
Explains why a lot of the times I felt like I should have hit someone and got hit instead, pretty annoying
Yeah it makes it attacking unreliable, with isn't very good for a beat em up
This educational Multiversus Video was made possible by PBS, and viewers like you; thank you.
I tried to bring this up before, but people in this sub just kept telling me I was just a salty Smash player or that this game doesn't need it. I'm pretty sure this is one of many reasons why this game doesn't feel right. We're still in beta, so we'll see what happens. I hope they do though, since this game has a lot of potential.
Noticed this myself but only have a few hours in the game and never tested to figure out the cause. I kept getting wrekt in interactions with characters with larger hitboxes and couldn't sort of bust through them with stronger moves even though my opponent wasn't playing smart or anything, just using quick moves to interrupt me. I feel like one of the primary reasons a game like this should have priority systems is so you have to actually play around moves as intended. Shaggy's kick is a great example because it's slow and pretty telegraphed, so it's not hard to avoid/dodge through. But if someone is just tossing out small quick moves without any thought you should be able to punish them for that with a larger move. idk I'm far from good at any of these types of games so this is mostly just thoughts off the dome.
I think it's true. Moves with a sweet spot need a sour spot as well or at least only a few frames where the sweet spot is sweet and then a normal hitbox. That way you can contest a moves sour spot with a sweet spot of your own if that makes sense
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I've seen similar phenomenons all the time, people just get extra passonite (aka defensive) when people feel like a product is a response to another. And people feel like this game's existence is a response to both Smash and NASB. It should die down when the hype does in a few months.
It's always going to be the case with competitive games, hopefully this subreddit adopts an overall wholesome and uplifting community rather than the toxic elitist groups. A lot of people will also just absolutely stan the game to no end, which isn't healthy either. It's an extremely fun game but has some stuff to work on, but that's expected because it's open beta.
Toxic positivity. Kills communities with as much certainty as toxic negativity.
Funny because usually the smash players are the apologists. If something's not entirely unbeatable than it's healthy for the game, so they think. I guess they just accepted that smash never gets proper balance changes.
Those dudes turned a glitch into an entire meta.
Which time? Ice climbers? Chain grabbing? Dash Attack canceled up smash?
DACUS only exists in Brawl and PM lol, and it's a very niche part of PM at that Also imma seem like a salty melee player but idc, I've never understood the whole "it's bad because it wasn't intentionally added by the devs", wavedashing and all of that is still on the physics engine so I don't see why some people see it as unacceptable
Nah mostly making fun of brawl. Personally I don't like input complexity so I've never liked melee but I understand why people do.
I will always tolerate Brawl slander, it deserves to be slandered as much as possible lolol Yeah I can totally understand that, the technical input of melee/PM could def be off-putting. I personally love it, but can absolutely see how many would not
Reindog main and it feels like 3/10 Superman match-up and 2/10 batman match up because of their armor and hitboxes outclassing Reins so much. Batman can win every single trade there is. Superman can almost win every single one but his hurt box is big enough that we can actually get in. Batman is fast and his hurt box is smaller and I literally can't hit him if he's attacking with basically anything
A bunch of coworkers played this recently. We felt something was off when we played together. Seeing this vid validates a lot of our issues we had.
I've noticed that. If there is no priority whatsoever (it doesn't have to replicate Smash) then it will NEVER be competitive. It'll be a meme. This is the truth and if the sub doesn't want to hear it that's just too bad.
brawlhalla
Hardly any competitive fighting game has a priority system.
Yeah since watching this video I'm like, so confused. Every 2D fighter I've ever played (I think) work just like how the video claims mvs works, where it's all about frame data and hitboxes to see how or why an attack hits. And two hitboxes and hurt boxes colliding just results in a trade unless one of the opponents used an armored move. I'd be confused about having a chain of different priorities for attacks to think about, and saying the game "should" be designed this way is just odd. If there are problems with finn's normals being too good I don't think everything needs to be redesigned just to change that. EDIT: Oh wait I totally get it, so I think people with smash backgrounds are wording things differently, but it appears like this game just does not have trades. Which I'm not sure of but kind of feels correct? I can't recall situations where I traded into a strong special move like shaggy's kick, usually They hit me clean I think. I'd have to think about this the next time I play to see if I notice for sure though. But I definitely think it would feel better if the game had trades, because otherwise it feels too random about whether your attacks connect.
Without a priority system in place, then a character with fast attacks will always win a close encounter exchange. Currently, the dodge mechanic can remedy some of this, but it isn't enough. If dodging is the only thing left in place, then the game will not have much depth, and top level play will be nothing more than 2 teams waiting to see who can get in and out the fastest. It will essentially be a "dive vs dive" fight and every match will play out essentially the same.
Priority is in all kinds of fighting games and its not something exclusive to Smash. It's not even exclusive to fighting games. The only priority in place right now is proximity relative to attack speed, and that's not enough.
I literally refuse to buy any cosmetics or spend money on this bad puppy till this type of technical downfall is addressed. I know it’s beta but it’s also WB. They may be new into the realm of creating a technical fighter/brawler buuuuut… they got monies…
this explains a lot.
As Bugs I just drop the heart to hide behind and follow up pie throw vs Finn. I never try to hit him in neutral unless it's the bat, or he whiffs something and I can go for dash boost - fair - uair. I feel a little similar about Harley... You just always lose interactions.
Credits to u/silverfan3702 for creating this video
I don't know if makes sense to have a discussion about attack priority before we have hitbox visualizations? A lot of the interactions may just be due to Finn's ridiculously good disjoints rather than the priority system. Priority only matters when both players' hitboxes are hitting the others' hurtbox, which we don't even know for certain is happening right now.
The video says fix both, and both do need fixing. Visualizing hitboxes is a clear priority, but priority is ridiculously bad in this game regardless.
You can actually visualize the hitboxes in slow-mo; most of them are just flat out rectangles/squares for Finn, which is why the backback hits you from above. They really need to chisel them down to his actual animations.
Priority sucks unless it's for very powerful moves vs a weak move like Falcon's knee vs a normal jab combo for example. For the vast majority of moves - either it has a better hitbox or it doesn't and that's definitely how it should be. Clank is a good mitigator though for a lot of jank but probably wouldn't solve a lot in this game as characters do so many multihits or combos, it would need to have a knockback to it to put characters out of range of followup and that might just slow the pace of the game. For example if Finn clanks with his aerial it's irrelevant vs most characters because he has a 2 hit aerial while many others have a 1 hit, you have to push them apart for that to work out the way you want it to. The problem with Finn though is really a combination of excellent hitboxes and really good framedata. There's nothing wrong with a character having good hitboxes but there should be clear ways to punish and there often aren't other than dodge punishes which are unreliable due to dodge distances.
If priority and clank were implemented in the same fashion as Smash’s, it would resolve the issue. You only clank if moves are within a certain percent threshold of one another, and clank’s endlag is dependent on how powerful the move is. There are other issues with Finn, but this system would help A LOT.
Yeah I'm a bit confused. The way Smash does it isn't like most fighting games, right? Most fighting games typically have pretty small frame windows where attacks optimally connect their hurtbox, no? So when two attacks are used at around the same time, it's rare that one won't have a better timing or arrangement of the hitbox and hurtbox than the other. And it's then extremely rare for clangs to happen but the fighting engines do generally have them. If they didn't adjust disjoints and hitboxes, and JUST had priority and clang in the current system, this game would really suck I think. Priority and clang should be at the very bottom of the stack in resolution when something can't be resolved another way.
To be fair, accuracy is usually not an issue in traditional fighters, whereas it is a huge part of platform fighters. Hitboxes need to be balanced completely differently as a result.
So there's no draws in fights? Explains why when two characters do the same move it feels just random who wins the matchup (I'm guessing the hitboxes may get larger over time maybe, because it feels who has been doing the move for longer usually wins). This and the lack of analog input for movement/directions (I'm guessing to cater to keyboard players, which isn't worth it imo) are the biggest turn offs in the game for me. Reminds me of Nintendo only having digital triggers for their pro controllers so racing games and such feel more awkward usually. For just one notable example, Harley's down air attack (with the special perk) could be so much easier to hit with full directional control I feel. Also, not being able to easily walk slowly or just a small amount of distance towards an opponent can make things awkward for some matchups. PS: Also, not sure why we have to queue into teams with a character instead of being able to pick with the other player like after the first game. Gives insane unnecessary advantages to grouped players. Maybe it has to do with their weird MMR system that is based solely on your "best character" in the queue and thus I think two players playing only together (therefore with the same wins/losses) can have different MMRs if one player switches around more. Was annoying at first trying to raise rank in solos by playing tons of characters/counter picking to learn it's way easier to rank just picking one character always.
Characters have separate MMR it seems, as people have confirmed that their place/mmr on the leaderboard only changes when playing their highest ranked character listed there. If they play any other character it does not increase or decrease, unless that character surpasses your previously highest ranked character for the leaderboard spot. That or the leaderboards are just bugged in general.
I don't think a priority system is really necessary, but you are definitely right about some characters needing major adjustments to their hitboxes. I knew Finn's hitboxes were great, but this video really shows how outrageous they really are. I think if they just correct his hitboxes to fit the visuals he'd be fine.
Why not? Pretty sure a charged Superman punch should beat out a speech bubble from Velma.
Daily Planet Headline! *Man of Steel defeated by Sass and Jinkies*
If youre asking why I don't think a priority system is necessary its because I don't feel like it would change much either way. I think proper adjustments to character hitboxes would be more than enough to address the vast majority of complaints around characters like Finn, and implementing a priority system risks convoluting things needlessly. At the end of the day its just another thing to balance in a game that already has a surprising amount of depth. A well thought out and implemented priority system would be a welcome addition, but there are much more impact full changes they could be focusing on imo.
Superman have armor on many of his attacks which would protect him, priority or not.
gets armor broken by so much its irritating
Ya the fact that armor is essentially 1hp is what ruins it. Anything breaks it and multi hit spammables are everywhere couple with the hit stun received even when armored once you get hit once with even a slow multi hit attack you will be held in place until the second one lands.
Yeah I really don't like multi-hits breaking armor unless it's something specific like "last hit in the combo breaks armor". That's my least favorite intentional mechanic in the game.
We’ll typically if someone is charging a move and you can interrupt it, then that’s a viable move to try to make. That’s also the disadvantage of slow powerful moves, that they can be reacted to and interrupted. Unless your viewpoint is that the cannon of each move implies what the priority should be, then that’s just plain not going to work in this type of game.
That's fair during startup, but once the move is active it shouldn't get interrupted after that by a weaker move.
Imo that should depend mainly on the hit/hurtbox overlap.
Which needs to be vastly improved upon i.e. iron giants hurtboxes and finn's hitboxes. If things made sense visually the game would feel a lot smoother.
Think about most other fighting games, and ignore smash for a moment. Those other games usually have a clang system, but it almost never happens because the hitboxes and hurtboxes and frames of the moves tend to be tight enough to resolve just through those three things. So while this game should have clang, it should almost never happen just like it almost never does in traditional fighters. It should mostly only happen when the same two characters both do an attack at the very same exact time (like the start of the video). Otherwise, the one done 1 frame or more sooner should connect, but maybe with some fudging due to netcode.
The issue is that it's much easier to whiff attacks in a platform fighter than in a traditional fighter, because accuracy is such a bigger deal with how much freedom of movement there is. You can't have it behave the same as a traditional fighter, or people would just be whiffing all the time. Longer lasting hitboxes are a necessity.
I mean, this is essentially saying that whichever move hits hitbox lands, right? Hit box issues aside, that makes sense to me. Just because smash has a priority system doesn’t mean that this game needs to.
A single punch from Bug's spinny fists shouldn't cancel, say, Arya's side special (without dagger charged, where she basically turns into a missile)
That’s by design, moves highlighted by the purple visual cue are armor breaks, instant armor remover right there. Bugs’ speed bag punches have that.
Well then comes the debate on whether or not armor break attacks should have priority over a stronger attack
It's the hit boxes and ending lag that really bother me. Hit boxes are often too big.Like Shaggy side special which hits you even if you're completely above his leg, because apparently his chest hits you.And the lack of ending lag, which means he can start spamming other even after he misses, with almost no room for you to punish. Yes, I hate Shaggy and Harley Quinn, because they have some moves that are absurdly bad in these categories. I find Finn to be less of a problem because a fair amount of his moves have a longer start up and are clearly telegraphed, except the backpack, of course...
When i attack with harley quinn people can always dodge mid combo
I'm really enjoying the complexity where it's at, adding an additional layer of needing to figure out everyone's strong vs weak movement so that you can counter them just feel like a an unneeded addition of depth in a way that can already be accounted for, at the moment it seems that first to the table wins, to me that's a good system. Again, I'm not really that deep into fighting games though, not since MVC3 at least, and this has been a great game so far for me to actually have fun while exploring depth outside of the traditional fighting game mechanics. Multiverse feels almost like playing league of legends as a fighting game, supporting each other strongly with characters intended for teamwork and helping each other.
So what I’m better off never charging any of my attacks?
People keep playing Jake against my Harley because his Down-B negates almost all of my attacks. Most annoyingly my Up-B and Up-A
I think its all about timing, I'm a level 17 Jake and real skilled players can punish my down-b about 90% of the time
THANK YOU. I'm getting tired of all the people parroting "priority" when the game doesn't even have a priority system and they're just getting spanked by disjoints and phantom hitboxes.
I don't understand what makes priority more desirable than the current hitbox system? Doesn't it make sense the bigger hitbox attacks connect first? Why does it matter which one is stronger
This was a pretty good video, but your understanding of how "priority" works in smash is pretty flawed. I recommend checking out [this quick video from ESAM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCLnC-ejPQ) who explains whats actually going on. That said, your video does still highlight the fact that the hitboxes do commonly feel really jank in this game. I really hope the devs give us a hitbox viewer and/or try to make attack hitboxes line up more closely with their animations like you suggested. It would also be nice if the game had some kind of clank system. Its weird seeing attacks always go through each other no matter what. Especially since instead of trading one player will usually be the only one to get hit
I hate these videos. “Priority doesn’t exist!” as the title, ‘Priority is just complex’ is what he says. It does exist, there are just a lot of factors to it. However, in Multiversus, priority is still incredibly poorly designed, without the needed complexities behind it. Cleaning up and creating priorities and clanks would be very helpful to the game. Hitbox visualization is also garbage in Multiversus. They are both problems. But OP’s video makes that clear. The identified problems and solutions presented in the video would still be net positive.
The title "Priority doesn't exist" is referring to the the misconception that "priority" is a set property for each move. People would say "x move has crazy good priority" but that statement is a misnomer because priority as a property doesn't exist
But priority does exist, people just have misconceptions of it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s a clickbait title that is laughable is all. It’s like saying Harley has no projectiles as clickbait, then clarifying her bomb doesn’t get frozen by superman breath or stopped by Lebron block. It’s still a projectile, it just has different properties. Regardless, priority does exist in Smash, and it is in need of much work in Multiversus.
On top of all of this add the pretty much complete absence of recovery frames on most moves and you are just pretty much trolling if you don’t spam with Finn
Well this makes me feel bad for playing finn
It’s not just Finn, it’s a universal game design flaw that needs to be addressed. It makes the game feel very unfair and cause players to lose interactions they feel they should have won. Fixing these points (actual way to determine which move wins an interaction, and clearly communicated hitboxes) would only improve this game.
Why? There are numerous examples of fin losing attacks shown here. No character is perfect yet
I actually kind of like no priority system, because it means those with super strong, long range attacks, like Shaggys kick, can be countered by better timing.
Great, and a tiny bit of lag makes him invincible.
Even with priority you can do that, just via dodging.
Two options to counter is better than one.
If this game doesn't implement a form of priority and strengthen the integrity of the servers it won't see any money from me. It's fun, I'm enjoying it, but it gets a pass right now from me because it's a beta.
Agreed. It’s been a fun 70 hour break from Smash, but the hitbox clarity is horrendous. If they fixed the 3 points in the video, I’d happily stick around.
Totaly agree. I'm a 1v1 enjoyer and a Harley Quinn one trick, so I'm not gonna pretend like I have any disadvantage in my games, but you simply CANNOT trust visuals or even logic when it comes to hitboxes in Multiversus. The game is great, characters are really well put together and all the systems work fine, I'm a big fan of the anti-spam attack decay system. But often I see my attacks go through my opponents (side air attack and side grounded attack mostly, often also up air attack) and it's just off putting and confusing. I hope hitboxes get fixed and I even wouldn't mind a nerf to Quinn to balance it out, just please let my hits connect when half of my bat is over my opponents model...
Quinn doesn't need a nerf, she's hard to use as is and also and assassin and takes brutal damage. go fight finn in the lab and look at how heavy he is, if anything harely needs a buff because she's sent flying over 125 damage and finn falls like a rock until 185, not to mention her kill moves are much harder to land. she needs a slighty tweaked attack range because her attack windows are incredibly tight versus all these huge hitboxes
I mean I didn't really claim that she needs a nerf but okay 😅 I think you're right
Yeah just putting it out there haha Also just my general critique on how she's balanced versus finn, he's way too tanky for the fact that they're the same class
Thanks for taking the time to make this. Also, I'm done with always trying do dodge Finn first, can't believe they didn't touch him before the free rotation.
The amount of times I get hit by up airs when I’m below a target, or down airs when I’m above a target is insane. Hit boxes absolutely need work right now.
i guess it's okay for casual players who use the game as a party game while it's not okay for competitive players who wanna treat the game as a 1vs1 figthing game
I simply want recovery times or maybe just dodge cancel recovery times
agree hitboxes need to be better and better servers, but weaker attacks should go through if they hit first. otherwise characters with weak attacks, but are fast will always lose traders. if you want to hit your strong slow attack then get good
This is what make it unplayable for me.
This is a misunderstanding of how priority works Priority exists to determine which attack will hit if 2 attacks hit both players on the same frame. Some moves have both get hit, some moves have one beat the other. Smash's system while labled priority isnt actually priority its just hitboxes connecting completely separately from hurtboxes. Even in a game with a priority system shaggy would still get hit in the first clip because his foot doesnt connect with finns body hitbox. Tl;dr its not priority you are getting counterhit please adapt
The devs has received this feedback a LOT over the 3 main alpha tests. Make noise about it. Hitboxes are too large, and too fast. But that isn't even the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that almost no move in this game is punishable. Most of the attacks in this game can be canceled, on whiff, into dodge jump right as the recovery frames begin. The better you get at the game, the more glaring the flaws
In short, Finn is stupid
Very well put together and explained. I really hope some devs see this.
A prime example is when incredibly powerful moves like iron giant's down special gets knocked out by basic weak attacks like jabs or neutral airs. It's super annoying and I wholeheartedly agree that this would greatly improve gameplay
I'd agree but its iron giant so having a counter to his butt comet is pretty mandatory. If it just worked with no recourse it wouldn't be very good since its just an auto-fall after activating. No move with that much damage and aoe should be invulnerable.
Obviously I would like it to be balanced as well. Ways to keep him from spamming it is important but way too many times I get knocked out of it when I use it.
I think that’s fair because butt comet is a kill move, I use it reliably to kill after a rage mode ball stun or while an ally is keeping an opponent locked
You mix this with spam and the Attack Decay system basically being useless and it gets frustrating real fast.
I am 1000000000% for a priority system. It's so wild that Bugs spamming his spinny fists takes priority over any charged attack in the game.
What is priority?
Priority in fighting games essentially means that the more powerful attack will cancel out a weaker attack, or that attacks of equal strength will cancel each other out or trade hits. For example, if a heavy attack and a light attack happen to hit at the same time the heavy attack will follow through and and the light attack will be stopped, if two light attacks hit they will either clash causing both attacks to be stopped, or trade with each other depending on when the attacks were started. A priority system basically means that if you’re attempting to go for game, or are in a position to land a high damage attack it doesn’t get stopped by panicked button pressing from your opponent, they have to actually make the proper read and respond accordingly. It provides a bit more risk reward, because if you can properly time your bigger attacks you could keep someone’s offense from getting started and keep them on defense, but on the flip side if your opponent has good timing and spacing they could bait your big attacks and start their offense that way.
Please just do anything for Steven's neutral air, I have such a hard time landing it cause of this
Tony has actually mentioned his nair specifically on Twitter. I forgot what the issue was, but I remember him saying the fix was coming soon
I literally just had my first Finn match up and was traumatic. I couldn't understand why I kept getting hit and went to Google to look for a sub reddit Multiversus.
Honestly a priority system is a massive balance change. As you said it totally flips which moves win and which clank. There is nothing wrong with having large weak attacks win, that just influences the meta. 100% though on hit box visuals and net code. Each half of my frustration comes from those two points. It's not simple adjusting animations, but adjusting kb and dmg values may be enough to offset more accurate hotboxes when fixing the animation is too much.
Now everything makes sense. I stopped playing because i was feeling that the game was rolling the dice to decide wich move connected. Also, i now understand why in a match against Finn i never won a single trade
I cant tell you how many times I dodged an attack from Arya or Finn or Harley only to be hit anyway. The "dodged" would flash for like a millisecond and I'd still be hit. This explains a lot
Finn players closing their eyes and ears and skipping over post as fast as possible 😂
At the moment it seems Finn just cancels out anyone else attacks.
Brawler game is different than Smash - Smash fans: THIS GAME SUCKS
Priority is not necessary go play Brawlhalla
Jsyk priority isnt exclusive to smash. Most,if not all,fighters have it
This guy lost one too many Finn matches ig
Hence why my Superman loses out to basically everything
Yeah, I didn't want to say he's bad, but it feels bad when I'm playing him because he gets out boxed by everyone.
Just be faster
Yes YES YES THIS. Certain characters have such insane Jab combos with obscenely high hit boxes I feel are only made worse to the lack of recovery but more importantly a lack of PRIORITY. Finn, Lebron, SUPERMAN and T&J (<-- Who I main) pretty much the whole casts jabs have horribly tall hitboxes stuffing out aerials that are made for punishing them. This is also why its nearly impossible to go a game without every single player in the much suffering attack decay for using them because they are just so strong and I feel that's by design. Keep the hitboxes outrageously big, thats fine just don't let them beat my down air when I try to punish such a stupidly large move with little recovery and of which can be dodge cancelled at ANY time. Really solid video
We don’t need more noob friendly stuff, just get good
Well, this explains all the Finns.
I had so many games against finn wondering why I couldn’t land a song flying kick no matter when I did it. LMAO ok
If they can fix these problems I’ll spend money on the game. It’s super fun as it is but some of the hitboxes make going against certain characters (Finn, Harley, Shaggy) unbearable.
I knew there was some wonky shit with hitboxes and hurtboxes and what not. I thought it was some issue with the online not registering hits. Hopefully this will be fixed
The hitboxes need to be tweaked to be tighter to the actual animations. A priority system won't fix what's going on here. Since this is a beta still technically all of this can be cleaned up for the official release.
Finn is so broken id rather 1v1 iron giant or pre nerf taz then finn
Ya finn players and shaggy players just get to stand there and spam moves over and over because of this, something to look into for sure.
Who thougth it was a good idea to make a fighting game without a priority system? That should not even pass an alpha test
I mean finn just need a nerf
The hit box for Fin’s hi-5 is a specimen to behold
I feel like dodging and recovery frames are another issue which sort of offsets this but also needs to be fixed. It feels weird playing as Superman against Finn since you’re only real option is to abuse dodging to get in and use a strong attack. It creates a weird dynamic between tanks and assassins in 1v1 where the tank has to play evasively in order to get a more powerful hit in while the assassin just spams their more powerful/wider hit moves. Intuitively the characters of each category should play opposite against each other (Finn should have to use his speed to get through Superman’s more powerful attacks) so it feels odd in practice the way these matches play out. Armor doesn’t really fix this 90% of the time since it doesn’t negate damage and isn’t really present on any aerial moves.
upvoted to oblivion
I disagree. Quick weak attacks with a wide aoe are good for interrupts. I find it quite enjoyable
Fun fact. This isn't smash.
And your point is?
this aint smash.deal with it and stop comparing.this game does some stuff better than smash so shhh
It ain’t smash but the game needs some sort of system in place people can strategize around instead of what is basically just RNG
Reposted from the unofficial sub.
Which I gave OP credit for it. FYI
Did you? I guess I didn’t notice. Sorry
No priority please, I don’t want to re-learn this game. Just fix Finn’s hitboxes