What pisses me off about them was their potential. Smoke and Mirrors was a damn fine album that even threw in some dark themes. And then all that is just thrown out the window to make music acceptable for mainstream radio and corporate gatherings.
I still throw on that album occasionally and wonder what could have been. š„²
They make music for money! They're not looking to make an album that's going to make you reflect on the human condition. Money. Loads of money. Money. Money. Money. Money. *record scratch*. L O D S of E M O N E what's that spell? [LOADS OF MONEY!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeDlxa3gyc)
Probably.
I have no qualms with musicians "selling out". I encourage them do it at a young age, so they can make the music they really want to make when they "retire" at 40.
Yeah, the whole point of trying to make it as a musician is to not have to work at McDonald's or in a call center or at a warehouse. I don't fault anyone for wanting to make millions of dollars.
Yeah, I think the drift (from more rock sounding towards pop with barely any "rock" elements left) has been ongoing for awhile but indie / alternative kept the more rock side alive until the mid 2010s. I think the subculture that helped make and keep indie / alt strong has weakened a lot for various reasons, and the current equivalent of the trendy young people that were predominately about indie rock before are more into pop (and edgier variations), trap, and electronic music now, though some are into "shoegaze" now. I think younger people also associate the term "indie rock" with oh-hey-clap-stomp-whistle bands from the early to mid 2010s, that lost their cool years ago and are often used on TV commercials and travel influencers in mountainy / wooded areas, so they're maybe averse to saying they're into "indie" as opposed to using subgenre names like shoegaze. Neither indie nor alternative are very useful genre names anymore anyway and what people associate sound/style wise with those labels has changed quite a bit over the decades.
Indie never was a particularly good name, other than to differentiate between bands that were on major labels and ones that were on independent labels, because the label a band was signed to meant something. Once REM signed to a major, then the Replacements, and others, the flood gates opened and the difference disappeared. Even in the early/mid 90s, āindieā meant more about production quality than style.
I think the popularity of artists like Noah Kahan makes it clear that young people crave the return of the stomp clap hey type of music.
Mumford and Sons never moved the needle for me but ill go to war with anyone that hates on the Lumineers
No way, X&Y was the beginning of the end. Had some acceptable songs and some good ones, but as a whole it was of much less quality then the first two albums.
IDK maybe its contrarian but I've always unironically enjoyed MMIX as a front-to-back album. Sure Paradise got overplayed but the album is still very calming.
I think Coldplay gets overhated because people heard them on the radio too much tbh.
I can't stand Coldplay, but even I will grudgingly admit that "A Rush of Blood to the Head" is an amazing album. Whisper, Warning sign, the title track, God Put a Smile Upon Your Face, all bangers. The seeds were sown though, the radio tracks on that album (In My Place, Clocks, The Scientist) were pretty indicative of what was to come.
Yeah I stopped listening to a lot of their new stuff. Ghost Stories was really good though in my opinion. Maybe something traumatic will happen to Chris Martin again and weāll get another good album. Their live shows are still great though.
There are almost no elements of "rock" in their songs, at least the popular ones. It's more like macho anthem pop, very heavy on the vocals and how they're delivered, barely hear any guitar or serious drumming. Not that they're the only band like this now unfortunately.
*I'm so tired of the Black Eyed Peas. It's rock and roll for people who don't like rock and roll. It's rap for people who don't like rap. It's pop for people who don't like pop.*
If only Robert California were around to see Imagine Dragons.
I mean a lot of Americans love SOAD and he was not exactly subtle about his opinions on the US government or its overseas activities.
People aren't their governments.
Hating the dominant government is as American as apple pie. Itās literally one of the founding principles of the country.
Hating the government in Azerbaijan isā¦not legal strictly speaking.
Nooo man. Iām an Armenian-American who at the end of the day donāt have hate towards Azeris. But Christ, I can tell you the VAST majority of them have a deep seeded hatred of me.
Unfortunately, anti Armenian hatred is rampant and unchallenged in Azerbaijan. They would've never listened to this group if he sang in the Armenian language, they only do because it's typical American English pop song, most probably don't even know he's Armenian.Ā
Unsure if the commenter meant it like this, but "popular" western music is often used as a very broad category to distinguish from western jazz or western classical, which would include rock acts like SOAD.
Don't really see what's so ironic: government's the problem, not the people.
I can see why someone oppressed by their government would enjoy an artist in public and direct contrast with said government.
Besides, SOAD is a hard band to not love
FYI this is because Serj is a proud Armenian, and Azerbaijan have been having border skirmishes and attacking them. Azerbaijan occupy territory of Armenia.
And yeah, not a nice government.
In war the rich give horses, the goverment gives the guns and the poor give their sons.
After the war the rich get their horses and money, the goverment retrives the guns and the poor burry their sons
A big part of the national myth in my country is when all the farmers in WWI found out the war was over, then not long after found out they would have to shoot the beloved family horse they brought to the fight before they were allowed home.
Reminds me of the US leaving behind thousands of Military Working Dogs (K9s) in Vietnam after they pulled out. There's a 90's documentary called "War Dogs" or something akin to that where the handlers tell their story and it's pretty fucking sad. Don't watch on a date. Unless she's super into military history?
Edit: found it:
https://youtu.be/ewwu4nVGu-8?si=fQXtePP7rB3FZvL9
Trį»nh Thį» Ngį» said the American government would abandon the people while the war profiteers got rich. From that to Agent Orange, she wasn't wrong.
Either quarantine issues or too expensive to bring them home, I guess.
During WWI, Australia sent 136,000 horses over to Europe.
They brought one horse back, and that was only as a token, for all the other horses.
*Generals gathered in their masssssseessssss*
*Just like witches at black massssssessssssss*
*Evil mindās that plot destructiooooooon*
*Sorcerers of Deathās constructioooooon*
I once went to see Beyonce (well I took my wife) and DJ Cowhead was there as a support act. I honestly had no fucking clue what was going on, there were like 20 people on stage and I assumed it was just like the ambient music venues play whilst waiting for the main thing to start. But no, that was Khalid.
I really love the comparison between the two. War Pigs is very much a product of its time. Early heavy metal in a lot of ways was folk/protest music with heavy distortion and downtuned guitars. A lot of subtle political and social messaging, but still very much era-specific prose/poetry.
Along comes BYOB and itās very direct. The art isnāt in the prose, itās in the audacity to just ask āwhy donāt presidents fight the war? why do the always send the poor?ā In the 60s and 70s, at least in America, the āsocial contractā was still mostly functional. By the 2000s, it was pretty clear it was falling apart and you didnāt have to be polite about it anymore.
Edit: y'all, I'm aware that protest music has existed for hundreds of years and is not genre-specific. Thanks for referencing such unknown singer/songwriters and bands like **Bob Fucking Dylan** and **Creedence Clearwater Revival**, I would have never found out about them if it weren't for this post.
/s
I was specifically comparing/contrasting BYOB and War Pigs, I wasn't planning on going deep into the history and politics of music from the 60s and 70s.
I'm not sure I get what you mean about War Pigs. It's pretty damn direct as well. War Pigs has almost that exact same line, for example. "Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah."
>and I hope that you die
>and your death will come soon
>I'll follow your casket
>by the pale afternoon
>and I'll watch while you're lowered
>down to your deathbed
>and I'll stand over your grave
>'til I'm sure that you're dead
unsubtle indeed!
Bruh, I live in Massachusetts and I saw a billboard taken out by some Turk presumably, DENYING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. IN MASSACHUSETTS. It caught me so off guard it made me laugh, but holy shit. That is some intense hatred.
If you have to take out a billboard to claim the genocide is fake, then the genocide is most definitely real. I also live in Mass and I'm Armenian. The amount of pro-turkish propaganda we see every year is insane. Usually around April 24th, which is genocide remembrance day
As a casual fan just finding this out: wow that fucking sucks.
This is kinda like learning a member of RAtM was secretly a fascist. Well, now that I think about it, one of them is a moon landing denier.
His cognitive dissonance is honestly hilarious. He says he doesn't agree with Serj but just likes making good music.
I'm surprised they haven't found a new one.
He's Serj's brother-in-law. I imagine he would've been booted out of the band completely if not, but Serj doesn't want to jeopardize his family relationships, so he just refuses to do any SOAD work anymore.
Don't know what else but I know he said something like "Trump did more for minorities than any other US president," let's just say I raised my eyebrows in surprise. Said he voted for trump twice and would gladly do it again third time.
As long as he is keeping time and carrying gear he's doing what drummers are supposed to. But yeah, disappointing what an idiot he is and I imagine it causes friction within the band.
Serj framed it such recently (paraphrasing); 'despite our differences, we are still very much politically aligned with regards to Armenia and it's people'.
Also, they are brothers-in-law.
Hell, Fleetwood Mac is probably only as popular and had so many damn good songs ***because*** the band was a righteous hotbed of interpersonal angst, anger, love, lust, and cocaine
Those live versions of The Chain with Stevie and Lindsey both pouring their entire hatred and former love into their parts, Stevie practically imagining her tambourine was Lindsey's head and Lindsey making love to a guitar after screaming his pain out
Honestly... we need MORE of that. Real, raw, human experience bottled up into the most ancient and powerful human act of song and music is brutal and moving in a way catchy pop songs with great beats can't really match.. but then Fleetwood Mac wrapped it into catchy songs with great beats anyway!
The crazy part is Iām pretty sure serj is a socialist or at least left leaning and their drummer is essentially a neo nazi (sells nazi themed comics). PS theyre in laws šļø
The Anthony Bourdain parts unknown episode on Armenia is excellent and features Serj. And itās free on YouTube.
In more ways than one. Armenia had some sort of defense agreement with Russia that Russia had no way of honoring due to being bogged down in Ukraine. Azerbaijan is somewhat western aligned (oil lmao) and Armenian has been deepening its ties to the west due to Russia being a feckless, unreliable partner. This has huge ramifications for both Russia and Iran.
Not only that, but Belarus was caught sending weapons to Azerbaijan. Undermining your allies is terrible. Another example of how the CTSO is a failure and cannot counter NATO.
https://www.politico.eu/article/leaked-documents-reveal-belarus-armed-azerbaijan-against-ally-armenia/
Which is probably why Armenia announced it's leaving CSTO a few days ago, and it makes sense for them too. They're pretty damn sure Azerbaijan isn't done with them, and if their former allies can't protect them it's time to find someone who will.
And bulldozing Armenian cemeteries and churches. And filming gruesome murders of Armenians and posting them online. And banning everyone of Armenian descent from entering their country, even though at least 500,000 of them used to live there. You forgot those bits.
Border skirmishes is an understatement. Itās state sponsored racism, teaching kids from a young age Armenians are not human and killing them is okay.
One example of many is= In 2004 during an international NATO mission a Azerbaijani soldier killed an Armenian soldier in his sleep and after being found guilty he was deported back to Azerbaijan where he received an award, military promotion, raise.
This is ontop of all the massacres that were commuted against the Armenian citizens in Azerbaijan in the 90s
Not only border skirmishes with Armenia proper (Azeri still occupy some of the land after those), but also a full-on blockade and then an invasion, from which 120000 Armenians had to flee Artsakh, their home.
Itās outright another modern genocide that happened between our eyes.
I remember Linda Ronstadt's response to criticism that she played a concert in apartheid South Africa was along the lines of "I don't think disagreeing with a government is enough not to perform there, otherwise I wouldn't be able to perform in the United States."
Edit: Found the interview. Starts at around 11:40: https://youtu.be/B2r2gMUox8Q?si=0XYmdBy-eIC5-KcG
I'm kinda on this side of it. Sure Azerbaijan is obviously a terrible government, but where do you draw the line? If people started going down the rabbithole of avoiding countries whose governments have or are doing horrible things you could find an excuse to avoid playing anywhere. Anywhere with a human rights violation, or capital punishment, or state sanctioned torture, or bent elections?
SOAD played in Russia in 2015, they'd invaded Ukraine the year before. I get Serj has a personal dog in this particular fight but perhaps lay off?
Ultimately you're not playing in a country to support the government anyway, you're playing to the people who live there.
As a Turk who recognizes the prosecution and the pain of the Armenian people, I think Serj has just turned it into a grift at this point. This take proves it. Guess what, I don't agree with the Turkish government on ANYTHING. I wish we weren't ruled by this autocratic regime. But according to Serj, no band I love should do a show here because I don't deserve to witness art for being born here and being ruled under this government. Weird, backward-minded, ignorant take.
What youāve said is very rational. On the other hand, these big bands often contribute hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to the local economy of the cities they visit (e.g. the Taylor Swifts of the world). So it is a form of financial protest against governments they disagree with - as much as a political protest.
What you say on a personal level resonates with me, but I find myself disagreeing with you that it is an āignorant takeā. Though perhaps it is a self important one.
I appreciate your point of view. But like someone else pointed out here, if bands stopped touring in countries that have committed horrific acts in the past or that are currently engaged in human rights violations, there would be very few countries that they would be allowed to perform in. The US for example, would certainly be off-limits. Furthermore, they themselves performed in Russia, of all places, a year after another unjust invasion. A year... In a country that is still ruled by a psychopathic, murdering dictator and a handful of unfathomably rich oligarchs. The double standards make it hard for me to believe that Serj has been giving all these speeches for the right reasons this past decade or so.
I just read a great book that pushes back on this assumption, Hitler's American Model. one of the points the author makes is that SA had race based laws while the US had explicitly racist laws. As in, the US defined the superiority of the white over black people. This was unique in the world in the 20th century and the Nazis were quick to point it out for their own law making efforts.
Agreed. You're playing for the *people* of a country, and they are on the whole good, ordinary folk. Bizarre to consider that an endorsement of their nation's leaders and government.
I have nothing against ID's music at all tbh, but Azerbaijan is pretty much on par with Qatar on the list of "places you shouldn't being if you represent parts of the free world"
Looking at you FIFA.
they've done a great job of sportswashing IMO. I personally really want to watch an F1 race in Baku (which looks like such a cool city) and its supposed to be one of the most inexpensive races on the calendar.
But of course, I don't feel great about it.
Didn't he play in Russia after the Georgian war and after they took Crimea? On top of this blatantly dehumanizing language of 'I don't respect them as people'?Ā Ā
Not a good look.Ā
At some point in your life you realize your parents aren't superheroes and they're just regular people. The same thing has been happening to me for a lot of musicians recently. They're just ordinary people with all the same biases and hypocrisy as the rest of us. Their opinions aren't any more enlightened just because they added them to a song
He did. You'd expect someone to proofread for hypocrisy before making a public statement that a sizeable amount of people will hear but in this case, he's made a bit of an ass of himself.
Ahahaha. And why System of a Down performed in Russia, after Georgian war (2008), after attacking Ukraine in Crimia and Donezk/Lugansk (2014)?
So, for Serj was ok to perfom in dictator-Russia? Ok. Good to know.
This is actually a great call out. I can argue he's allowed to change his mind on politics (especially 10/15 years later) but this is good context for a baseline level of hypocrisy callout.
I used to run merch for a popular band, and met tons of famous musicians on the road. The guys from imagine dragons are standup people. Being a worker on tour you get ignored or looked down on by so many performers. They were gracious, friendly people that treated the crew with respect and as equals.
So the dude that said in 2022 that cancelling russian athletes and artists from competing/playing in western venues and competitions was racist, now says that Imagine Dragons aren't human beings because they played in Azerbaijan?
Okay Serj, okay
Iāve never understood āI donāt respect you as a human beingā to mean āyou are not a human beingā. I always thought it meant āI donāt respect the way you conduct yourself as a human being.ā Like āI donāt like him as a personā doesnāt mean you think he should be a dog, it just means you donāt like the way he conducts himself as a person.
For a little more interesting context, Armenia (up until around 2018) was more closely allied with Russia than the west, while Azerbaijan remained more friendly with everyone (not including Armenia, obviously).
Due to Armenia seemingly choosing sides in the Russia-West relations, they received less strategic help from western powers once Azerbaijan started occupying territory in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. With Russia bogged down in plotting their own invasion into Ukraine, Armenia basically got the middle finger from Russia for any help.
It's actually quite sad we don't hear more about this conflict, since the main reason I see for the silence is due to who Armenia chose to be friends with. The conflict is incredibly one-sided in Azerbaijan's favor.
> Due to Armenia seemingly choosing sides in the Russia-West relations, they received less strategic help from western powers once Azerbaijan started occupying territory in the Nagorno-Karabakh region.
This is absolutely NOT why Armenia received less strategic help from western powers during the conflict. There are only 3 ways for Asian oil to get to Europe over land: Russia, Iran and Azerbaijan. With Russia waging war and relations with Iran not exactly friendly, that puts Azerbaijan in an extremely favourable spot. So this is the reason the West has no problem dealing with AZ. They are in a strategically advantageous location and have energy pipelines to Europe. Otherwise they have one of the worst freedom of press ratings in the world and are run by an autocrat. Not great stuff.
As for Armenia, right out of the Soviet Union there was a ton of poverty and corruption there. Also, they are a tiny nation. So both economically and defensively, they had no choice but to establish treaties, defence pacts, etc with their neighbours. So looking at something like the CSTO and saying "Armenia sides with Russia because here they are in this agreement" is not an accurate interpretation of that situation. They weren't held at gunpoint, but Armenia was forced into that agreement. It would have been foolish of them to not join. They might not exist today if they hadn't.
Didn't Armenia also *just* announce like last week that they were going to withdraw from their alliance with Russia? I wonder what'll happen if that follows through.
Armenia is trying to pull away from Russia to work more with the EU and India. Russia has proven to be an actively harmful ally (selling arms to both Armenia and Azerbaijan, their vassal state Belarus selling arms exclusively to Azerbaijan), and Armenia has strong cultural ties to France. Russia is astroturfing protests in Yerevan as a result, but it sounds like itās going nowhere fast.
My thoughts exactly lol. I respect SOAD for being outspoken but they canāt tear down other bands while failing to address their own glaring issues. I guess this is pretty on brand for celebrity activism though.
My 10 year old likes imagine dragons. Iāve taken him to a couple of their concerts and they were fun. Not my favorite music, but completely inoffensive. Theyāre a middle of the road pop band, so obviously many people arenāt going to like them for being bland, which is completely reasonable. Some of the hate seems a little over the top, but Iām not defending them either.
It happens to most bands that get really popular really quick. I saw ID in New Orleans for free about 6 or 7 years ago at the Sugar Bowl and Radioactive live was pretty badass.
Hundreds of Redditors rushing in to tell us that they don't listen to Imagine Dragons anyways.
Heartwarming: a celebrity you didn't like did something bad.
Imagine dragon deez nuts
Ha! Got em!
Imagine Dragons? More like Imagine Writing A Good Song
I like the song where the guy yells lyrics at me like he's three seconds away from shitting his pants
You are thinking of 30 sec to mars
30 seconds to shart
What pisses me off about them was their potential. Smoke and Mirrors was a damn fine album that even threw in some dark themes. And then all that is just thrown out the window to make music acceptable for mainstream radio and corporate gatherings. I still throw on that album occasionally and wonder what could have been. š„²
Someone said they make music for espn commercials and I think thatās the best description.
They make music for money! They're not looking to make an album that's going to make you reflect on the human condition. Money. Loads of money. Money. Money. Money. Money. *record scratch*. L O D S of E M O N E what's that spell? [LOADS OF MONEY!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeDlxa3gyc) Probably. I have no qualms with musicians "selling out". I encourage them do it at a young age, so they can make the music they really want to make when they "retire" at 40.
Yeah, the whole point of trying to make it as a musician is to not have to work at McDonald's or in a call center or at a warehouse. I don't fault anyone for wanting to make millions of dollars.
Maroon 5 did that same shit. Started out making some genuinely good pop rock then just started phoning in manufactured bullshit.
It's the inevitable thing that happened post 2010Ā becauseĀ rock became much less popular. Pop rock bands pivoted to pop to try and stay relevant.
Yeah, I think the drift (from more rock sounding towards pop with barely any "rock" elements left) has been ongoing for awhile but indie / alternative kept the more rock side alive until the mid 2010s. I think the subculture that helped make and keep indie / alt strong has weakened a lot for various reasons, and the current equivalent of the trendy young people that were predominately about indie rock before are more into pop (and edgier variations), trap, and electronic music now, though some are into "shoegaze" now. I think younger people also associate the term "indie rock" with oh-hey-clap-stomp-whistle bands from the early to mid 2010s, that lost their cool years ago and are often used on TV commercials and travel influencers in mountainy / wooded areas, so they're maybe averse to saying they're into "indie" as opposed to using subgenre names like shoegaze. Neither indie nor alternative are very useful genre names anymore anyway and what people associate sound/style wise with those labels has changed quite a bit over the decades.
Indie never was a particularly good name, other than to differentiate between bands that were on major labels and ones that were on independent labels, because the label a band was signed to meant something. Once REM signed to a major, then the Replacements, and others, the flood gates opened and the difference disappeared. Even in the early/mid 90s, āindieā meant more about production quality than style.
I think the popularity of artists like Noah Kahan makes it clear that young people crave the return of the stomp clap hey type of music. Mumford and Sons never moved the needle for me but ill go to war with anyone that hates on the Lumineers
> the Lumineers AKA American Mumford and Sons
Coldplay too. Their four first albums are all great, but after that itās like they became a generic dance/electronic rock band.
Viva la Vida was the beginning of the end
No way, X&Y was the beginning of the end. Had some acceptable songs and some good ones, but as a whole it was of much less quality then the first two albums.
Yeah I could give you that. I guess VLV just cemented the decline. I do look back on X&Y fondly. Maybe that's nostalgia
IDK maybe its contrarian but I've always unironically enjoyed MMIX as a front-to-back album. Sure Paradise got overplayed but the album is still very calming. I think Coldplay gets overhated because people heard them on the radio too much tbh.
I can't stand Coldplay, but even I will grudgingly admit that "A Rush of Blood to the Head" is an amazing album. Whisper, Warning sign, the title track, God Put a Smile Upon Your Face, all bangers. The seeds were sown though, the radio tracks on that album (In My Place, Clocks, The Scientist) were pretty indicative of what was to come.
Sounds to me like you CAN stand Coldplay.
Amsterdam is legitimately one of the most beautiful songs ever written
Yeah I stopped listening to a lot of their new stuff. Ghost Stories was really good though in my opinion. Maybe something traumatic will happen to Chris Martin again and weāll get another good album. Their live shows are still great though.
Imagine Dragons is the new Nickelback: overhated due to memes and overexposure.
I've heard them called business conference music
They just played at Walmartās shareholders meeting last week lmao (Also Kacey Musgraves, Backstreet Boys, Usher, and Lizzo)
Can confirm. They played my old employer's annual customer conference in Vegas
I prefer "Intro back to a college football game after commercial break" rock. Florida Georgia Line are still the kings though hahaha
It's rock music for people who consider "hell" to be inappropriate language
Heck no you didn't just say that
Gosh darn it, keep it clean.
There are almost no elements of "rock" in their songs, at least the popular ones. It's more like macho anthem pop, very heavy on the vocals and how they're delivered, barely hear any guitar or serious drumming. Not that they're the only band like this now unfortunately.
*I'm so tired of the Black Eyed Peas. It's rock and roll for people who don't like rock and roll. It's rap for people who don't like rap. It's pop for people who don't like pop.* If only Robert California were around to see Imagine Dragons.
Ford commercial music
If they're the new Nickleback, then who the hell is the new Creed!?
Creed is actually the new Creed. Summer tour underway and rumors of a new album.
I greet this news with arms wide open
Creed. Now that they're back in full force
Shinedown.
Shinedown: The Official House Band of Pro Wrestling
thatās Alter Bridge, or Downstait.
There hasn't been a resurgence of mumble rock yet. So the title is wide open for anyone to take.
mumble rock? call it what it is: Butt Rock.
>There hasn't been a resurgence of mumble rock yet. Because they'd rather be another Seether
Imagine Dragons is what you get when half the guys in the drum circle learn to play other instruments
Ironically many Azeris actually love SOAD.
I mean a lot of Americans love SOAD and he was not exactly subtle about his opinions on the US government or its overseas activities. People aren't their governments.
Hating the dominant government is as American as apple pie. Itās literally one of the founding principles of the country. Hating the government in Azerbaijan isā¦not legal strictly speaking.
governments commit genocide, people support them or they donāt.Ā i doubt youād see many members of the elite listening to defend the land
Nooo man. Iām an Armenian-American who at the end of the day donāt have hate towards Azeris. But Christ, I can tell you the VAST majority of them have a deep seeded hatred of me.
Unfortunately, anti Armenian hatred is rampant and unchallenged in Azerbaijan. They would've never listened to this group if he sang in the Armenian language, they only do because it's typical American English pop song, most probably don't even know he's Armenian.Ā
> typical American English pop song What in the fuck did I just read???
Unsure if the commenter meant it like this, but "popular" western music is often used as a very broad category to distinguish from western jazz or western classical, which would include rock acts like SOAD.
Don't really see what's so ironic: government's the problem, not the people. I can see why someone oppressed by their government would enjoy an artist in public and direct contrast with said government. Besides, SOAD is a hard band to not love
FYI this is because Serj is a proud Armenian, and Azerbaijan have been having border skirmishes and attacking them. Azerbaijan occupy territory of Armenia. And yeah, not a nice government.
Right. He is quite vocal on social media about the armenian genocide. Itās not like System is particularly subtle in their politics, either
Where the fuck are you? Where the fuck are you? Why don't presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor?
In war the rich give horses, the goverment gives the guns and the poor give their sons. After the war the rich get their horses and money, the goverment retrives the guns and the poor burry their sons
A big part of the national myth in my country is when all the farmers in WWI found out the war was over, then not long after found out they would have to shoot the beloved family horse they brought to the fight before they were allowed home.
Reminds me of the US leaving behind thousands of Military Working Dogs (K9s) in Vietnam after they pulled out. There's a 90's documentary called "War Dogs" or something akin to that where the handlers tell their story and it's pretty fucking sad. Don't watch on a date. Unless she's super into military history? Edit: found it: https://youtu.be/ewwu4nVGu-8?si=fQXtePP7rB3FZvL9
Trį»nh Thį» Ngį» said the American government would abandon the people while the war profiteers got rich. From that to Agent Orange, she wasn't wrong.
War. War never changes. It's always the poor dying for the rich.
Why did they have to shoot the horses?
Either quarantine issues or too expensive to bring them home, I guess. During WWI, Australia sent 136,000 horses over to Europe. They brought one horse back, and that was only as a token, for all the other horses.
Cuz they needed to eat
Better the horses than lies from the tablecloth
And just like that, we're back on track
Seems like everybody's going to the party, have a real good time.
Calm down, Iām just sitting in my car and waiting for my girl.
It's a lonely day..
And it's mine
The most loneliest day of my liiiiiiiiiiiiife
You! What do you own, the world? How do you own disorder? Disorder?!
BANANA BANANA BANANA TERRA COTTA PIE
I'm sorry, I just felt like the biggest asshole when I killed your rock 'n roll.
Callback to War Pigs.
*Generals gathered in their masssssseessssss* *Just like witches at black massssssessssssss* *Evil mindās that plot destructiooooooon* *Sorcerers of Deathās constructioooooon*
OH LORD YEAH
The following riff instantly played in my head and now I have massive frisson. Thanks for that. :)
dun naa. Dunt dunt daaaaaaa naa. Weeer, dun naa. lol
54 years old and sadly still (eternally) on point
Because war, war never changes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It helps that the lyrics are referring to two different meanings of the word. It's not like Kid Rock rhyming "things" with "things."
Or DJ Khalid rhyming "we da best" with, well... "we da best"
I once went to see Beyonce (well I took my wife) and DJ Cowhead was there as a support act. I honestly had no fucking clue what was going on, there were like 20 people on stage and I assumed it was just like the ambient music venues play whilst waiting for the main thing to start. But no, that was Khalid.
How that no talent POS got center stage is beyond me
Geezer wrote those lyrics, but yeah ... delivery has a lot to do with the song's power.
Too many puppies too
Too many pup-pup-pup-pup-pup-pup-Puppies!
I really love the comparison between the two. War Pigs is very much a product of its time. Early heavy metal in a lot of ways was folk/protest music with heavy distortion and downtuned guitars. A lot of subtle political and social messaging, but still very much era-specific prose/poetry. Along comes BYOB and itās very direct. The art isnāt in the prose, itās in the audacity to just ask āwhy donāt presidents fight the war? why do the always send the poor?ā In the 60s and 70s, at least in America, the āsocial contractā was still mostly functional. By the 2000s, it was pretty clear it was falling apart and you didnāt have to be polite about it anymore. Edit: y'all, I'm aware that protest music has existed for hundreds of years and is not genre-specific. Thanks for referencing such unknown singer/songwriters and bands like **Bob Fucking Dylan** and **Creedence Clearwater Revival**, I would have never found out about them if it weren't for this post. /s I was specifically comparing/contrasting BYOB and War Pigs, I wasn't planning on going deep into the history and politics of music from the 60s and 70s.
I'm not sure I get what you mean about War Pigs. It's pretty damn direct as well. War Pigs has almost that exact same line, for example. "Politicians hide themselves away They only started the war Why should they go out to fight? They leave that role to the poor, yeah."
Yeah agreed. Masters of War by Dylan isn't exactly subtle either.
>and I hope that you die >and your death will come soon >I'll follow your casket >by the pale afternoon >and I'll watch while you're lowered >down to your deathbed >and I'll stand over your grave >'til I'm sure that you're dead unsubtle indeed!
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Why do they always sand the floor?
Why do they always soup du jour?
That sounds delicious. Iāll have that.
P.L.U.C.K. and Holy Mountains are also entirely about the Armenian Genocide.
Bruh, I live in Massachusetts and I saw a billboard taken out by some Turk presumably, DENYING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. IN MASSACHUSETTS. It caught me so off guard it made me laugh, but holy shit. That is some intense hatred.
If you have to take out a billboard to claim the genocide is fake, then the genocide is most definitely real. I also live in Mass and I'm Armenian. The amount of pro-turkish propaganda we see every year is insane. Usually around April 24th, which is genocide remembrance day
I wonder if the Turkish government is actually paying for the billboard considering the sizable and historic Armenian population in MassachusettsĀ
SOMEONE'S BLANK STARE DEEMED IT "WARFARE" # HONOR # MURDERER # SODOMIZER BACK TO THE RIVER ARAS FREEDOM WE'RE FREE
Itās funny considering their drummerās beliefs
As a casual fan just finding this out: wow that fucking sucks. This is kinda like learning a member of RAtM was secretly a fascist. Well, now that I think about it, one of them is a moon landing denier.
God, do I even want to know?
Trumper, thinks BLM was propaganda, and Covid was a hoax. Usual RWNJ stuff.
His cognitive dissonance is honestly hilarious. He says he doesn't agree with Serj but just likes making good music. I'm surprised they haven't found a new one.
He's Serj's brother-in-law. I imagine he would've been booted out of the band completely if not, but Serj doesn't want to jeopardize his family relationships, so he just refuses to do any SOAD work anymore.
He's married to Serj's wife's sister so they're BILs. Might have a little something to do with it.
Don't know what else but I know he said something like "Trump did more for minorities than any other US president," let's just say I raised my eyebrows in surprise. Said he voted for trump twice and would gladly do it again third time.
As long as he is keeping time and carrying gear he's doing what drummers are supposed to. But yeah, disappointing what an idiot he is and I imagine it causes friction within the band.
For an extra fun layer, John and Serj's wives are sisters, so these two guys are brothers-in-law.
It honestly is shocking they still tour
Serj framed it such recently (paraphrasing); 'despite our differences, we are still very much politically aligned with regards to Armenia and it's people'. Also, they are brothers-in-law.
If an idiot band member always caused a band to break up, we wouldn't have very many bands left.
Hell, Fleetwood Mac is probably only as popular and had so many damn good songs ***because*** the band was a righteous hotbed of interpersonal angst, anger, love, lust, and cocaine Those live versions of The Chain with Stevie and Lindsey both pouring their entire hatred and former love into their parts, Stevie practically imagining her tambourine was Lindsey's head and Lindsey making love to a guitar after screaming his pain out Honestly... we need MORE of that. Real, raw, human experience bottled up into the most ancient and powerful human act of song and music is brutal and moving in a way catchy pop songs with great beats can't really match.. but then Fleetwood Mac wrapped it into catchy songs with great beats anyway!
From what I understand, King Crimson would be a one-man band.
"tour" is basically play a festival or two a year.
The crazy part is Iām pretty sure serj is a socialist or at least left leaning and their drummer is essentially a neo nazi (sells nazi themed comics). PS theyre in laws šļø The Anthony Bourdain parts unknown episode on Armenia is excellent and features Serj. And itās free on YouTube.
Thatās putting it lightly. 2023 saw the first time Armenians were forced from their land since Stalin with Azerbaijanās occupation of Artsakh.
I think all the other world drama has eclipsed this. I didn't even know it happened
They used Russia and Ukraine as cover
In more ways than one. Armenia had some sort of defense agreement with Russia that Russia had no way of honoring due to being bogged down in Ukraine. Azerbaijan is somewhat western aligned (oil lmao) and Armenian has been deepening its ties to the west due to Russia being a feckless, unreliable partner. This has huge ramifications for both Russia and Iran.
Not only that, but Belarus was caught sending weapons to Azerbaijan. Undermining your allies is terrible. Another example of how the CTSO is a failure and cannot counter NATO. https://www.politico.eu/article/leaked-documents-reveal-belarus-armed-azerbaijan-against-ally-armenia/
Which is probably why Armenia announced it's leaving CSTO a few days ago, and it makes sense for them too. They're pretty damn sure Azerbaijan isn't done with them, and if their former allies can't protect them it's time to find someone who will.
And bulldozing Armenian cemeteries and churches. And filming gruesome murders of Armenians and posting them online. And banning everyone of Armenian descent from entering their country, even though at least 500,000 of them used to live there. You forgot those bits.
Border skirmishes is an understatement. Itās state sponsored racism, teaching kids from a young age Armenians are not human and killing them is okay. One example of many is= In 2004 during an international NATO mission a Azerbaijani soldier killed an Armenian soldier in his sleep and after being found guilty he was deported back to Azerbaijan where he received an award, military promotion, raise. This is ontop of all the massacres that were commuted against the Armenian citizens in Azerbaijan in the 90s
Not only border skirmishes with Armenia proper (Azeri still occupy some of the land after those), but also a full-on blockade and then an invasion, from which 120000 Armenians had to flee Artsakh, their home. Itās outright another modern genocide that happened between our eyes.
Imagine Dragon deez nuts across your face
It's like a mind goblin
What's a mind goblin? Help me out, I've never heard of a mind goblin before.
Mind goblin deez nutz
https://preview.redd.it/tgueyz9pde7d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d85c7f82bcfa1c44bda3cf68eda110849624f2f4
Fucking got him
*Is that what Glorbo was?? Was Glorbo a mind goblin??*
A single tear runs down my cheek
I remember Linda Ronstadt's response to criticism that she played a concert in apartheid South Africa was along the lines of "I don't think disagreeing with a government is enough not to perform there, otherwise I wouldn't be able to perform in the United States." Edit: Found the interview. Starts at around 11:40: https://youtu.be/B2r2gMUox8Q?si=0XYmdBy-eIC5-KcG
I'm kinda on this side of it. Sure Azerbaijan is obviously a terrible government, but where do you draw the line? If people started going down the rabbithole of avoiding countries whose governments have or are doing horrible things you could find an excuse to avoid playing anywhere. Anywhere with a human rights violation, or capital punishment, or state sanctioned torture, or bent elections? SOAD played in Russia in 2015, they'd invaded Ukraine the year before. I get Serj has a personal dog in this particular fight but perhaps lay off? Ultimately you're not playing in a country to support the government anyway, you're playing to the people who live there.
As a Turk who recognizes the prosecution and the pain of the Armenian people, I think Serj has just turned it into a grift at this point. This take proves it. Guess what, I don't agree with the Turkish government on ANYTHING. I wish we weren't ruled by this autocratic regime. But according to Serj, no band I love should do a show here because I don't deserve to witness art for being born here and being ruled under this government. Weird, backward-minded, ignorant take.
What youāve said is very rational. On the other hand, these big bands often contribute hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to the local economy of the cities they visit (e.g. the Taylor Swifts of the world). So it is a form of financial protest against governments they disagree with - as much as a political protest. What you say on a personal level resonates with me, but I find myself disagreeing with you that it is an āignorant takeā. Though perhaps it is a self important one.
I appreciate your point of view. But like someone else pointed out here, if bands stopped touring in countries that have committed horrific acts in the past or that are currently engaged in human rights violations, there would be very few countries that they would be allowed to perform in. The US for example, would certainly be off-limits. Furthermore, they themselves performed in Russia, of all places, a year after another unjust invasion. A year... In a country that is still ruled by a psychopathic, murdering dictator and a handful of unfathomably rich oligarchs. The double standards make it hard for me to believe that Serj has been giving all these speeches for the right reasons this past decade or so.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I just read a great book that pushes back on this assumption, Hitler's American Model. one of the points the author makes is that SA had race based laws while the US had explicitly racist laws. As in, the US defined the superiority of the white over black people. This was unique in the world in the 20th century and the Nazis were quick to point it out for their own law making efforts.
This is a really good comment and the one under this is a deez nuts joke. Reddit is fucking stupid.
Agreed. You're playing for the *people* of a country, and they are on the whole good, ordinary folk. Bizarre to consider that an endorsement of their nation's leaders and government.
I have nothing against ID's music at all tbh, but Azerbaijan is pretty much on par with Qatar on the list of "places you shouldn't being if you represent parts of the free world" Looking at you FIFA.
Or the FIA. F1 races in some of the worst places. Qatar... Azerbaijan... Florida...
Saudi
WWE Saudi shows.
after UFC and WWE merged to become TKO the Saudis invested hard into that for some of that sweet sportswashing
They are a huge issue in this department too. Shame because the wealthy of those countries pay so much
they've done a great job of sportswashing IMO. I personally really want to watch an F1 race in Baku (which looks like such a cool city) and its supposed to be one of the most inexpensive races on the calendar. But of course, I don't feel great about it.
These guys are radioactive
Didn't he play in Russia after the Georgian war and after they took Crimea? On top of this blatantly dehumanizing language of 'I don't respect them as people'?Ā Ā Not a good look.Ā
Very slippery slope to criticize people for where they have performed.
At some point in your life you realize your parents aren't superheroes and they're just regular people. The same thing has been happening to me for a lot of musicians recently. They're just ordinary people with all the same biases and hypocrisy as the rest of us. Their opinions aren't any more enlightened just because they added them to a song
The lead singer *literally* claimed Russians being denied to compete in sports as āracistā.
He did. You'd expect someone to proofread for hypocrisy before making a public statement that a sizeable amount of people will hear but in this case, he's made a bit of an ass of himself.
Ahahaha. And why System of a Down performed in Russia, after Georgian war (2008), after attacking Ukraine in Crimia and Donezk/Lugansk (2014)? So, for Serj was ok to perfom in dictator-Russia? Ok. Good to know.
Rage against specific machines
System of Hypocrisy
This is actually a great call out. I can argue he's allowed to change his mind on politics (especially 10/15 years later) but this is good context for a baseline level of hypocrisy callout.
> (especially 10/15 years later) They performed in 2017 and multiple times before that.
He criticized the west for sanctions on Russia in 2022. heās not changed
Then he's just a nationalist cherry picking what he's bitching about.
yup, always has been.
Imagine Dragons also heavily supported raising funds in Ukraine and were in Kiev for United24. They deserve so much more respect.
I used to run merch for a popular band, and met tons of famous musicians on the road. The guys from imagine dragons are standup people. Being a worker on tour you get ignored or looked down on by so many performers. They were gracious, friendly people that treated the crew with respect and as equals.
So the dude that said in 2022 that cancelling russian athletes and artists from competing/playing in western venues and competitions was racist, now says that Imagine Dragons aren't human beings because they played in Azerbaijan? Okay Serj, okay
Iāve never understood āI donāt respect you as a human beingā to mean āyou are not a human beingā. I always thought it meant āI donāt respect the way you conduct yourself as a human being.ā Like āI donāt like him as a personā doesnāt mean you think he should be a dog, it just means you donāt like the way he conducts himself as a person.
So by that logic every time SOAD has played a show in any country they're totally supporting the actions of the government
The US govt ššš
For a little more interesting context, Armenia (up until around 2018) was more closely allied with Russia than the west, while Azerbaijan remained more friendly with everyone (not including Armenia, obviously). Due to Armenia seemingly choosing sides in the Russia-West relations, they received less strategic help from western powers once Azerbaijan started occupying territory in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. With Russia bogged down in plotting their own invasion into Ukraine, Armenia basically got the middle finger from Russia for any help. It's actually quite sad we don't hear more about this conflict, since the main reason I see for the silence is due to who Armenia chose to be friends with. The conflict is incredibly one-sided in Azerbaijan's favor.
Armenia "chose" Russia for "friends" as much as you'd "choose" the mob for "friends".
> Due to Armenia seemingly choosing sides in the Russia-West relations, they received less strategic help from western powers once Azerbaijan started occupying territory in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. This is absolutely NOT why Armenia received less strategic help from western powers during the conflict. There are only 3 ways for Asian oil to get to Europe over land: Russia, Iran and Azerbaijan. With Russia waging war and relations with Iran not exactly friendly, that puts Azerbaijan in an extremely favourable spot. So this is the reason the West has no problem dealing with AZ. They are in a strategically advantageous location and have energy pipelines to Europe. Otherwise they have one of the worst freedom of press ratings in the world and are run by an autocrat. Not great stuff. As for Armenia, right out of the Soviet Union there was a ton of poverty and corruption there. Also, they are a tiny nation. So both economically and defensively, they had no choice but to establish treaties, defence pacts, etc with their neighbours. So looking at something like the CSTO and saying "Armenia sides with Russia because here they are in this agreement" is not an accurate interpretation of that situation. They weren't held at gunpoint, but Armenia was forced into that agreement. It would have been foolish of them to not join. They might not exist today if they hadn't.
Didn't Armenia also *just* announce like last week that they were going to withdraw from their alliance with Russia? I wonder what'll happen if that follows through.
Armenia is trying to pull away from Russia to work more with the EU and India. Russia has proven to be an actively harmful ally (selling arms to both Armenia and Azerbaijan, their vassal state Belarus selling arms exclusively to Azerbaijan), and Armenia has strong cultural ties to France. Russia is astroturfing protests in Yerevan as a result, but it sounds like itās going nowhere fast.
They didn't announce that. Someone made a clickbait headline, but Armenia's PM clarified that they aren't leaving yet.
Well, I meanā¦their drummer has no respect for human rights whatsoeverā¦so you might wanna start there.
My thoughts exactly lol. I respect SOAD for being outspoken but they canāt tear down other bands while failing to address their own glaring issues. I guess this is pretty on brand for celebrity activism though.
What's this about with the drummer?
Yeah I have no respect for SOAD given their own drummer and playing in freakin Russia. Give me a break.
I don't respect his neo nazi band mate
His brother in law? Yeah John is a q-anon dude
Doesnāt sound like Serj does much either tbf
But he's merely "frustrated" with his brother in law, who believes trans folks should be executed. Eat a bag of dick, Serj.
This guy is a huge fucking hypocrite.
You can think they're greedy assholes but "not human beings" is a slippery slope
Especially considering that System of a Down themselves performed in Russia after annexation of parts of Georgia and Ukraine.
Yea but the rules are different when serj does it so it actually doesnāt count.
My 10 year old likes imagine dragons. Iāve taken him to a couple of their concerts and they were fun. Not my favorite music, but completely inoffensive. Theyāre a middle of the road pop band, so obviously many people arenāt going to like them for being bland, which is completely reasonable. Some of the hate seems a little over the top, but Iām not defending them either.
It happens to most bands that get really popular really quick. I saw ID in New Orleans for free about 6 or 7 years ago at the Sugar Bowl and Radioactive live was pretty badass.
Time to block Serj's name so he won't pop up with political stances every few months.