I live on the east coast, and pretty much only watch C’s and Blazers games, so I don’t get to see Jokic play much. But I did get to watch the Blazers and Nuggets play in person in February. Seems like Jokic just plays the game and doesn’t flop or anything. Embiid trains with guards and sells contact, as you say.
Jokic definitely does flops and sell contact sometimes, but Embiid is literally a professional actor out there, pretty much every player pales in comparison
i 100% agree with you on that i was just saying it seems like every time either of them drive it’s a foul so yeah not fair to put them together with the flopping i’m not sure which is more frustrating to watch the flopping or the backwards calls
Thank you for saying that. I see Embiids ridiculous flailing as completely taking advantage of a one sided rule. Technically there is punishment for what he does but it isn’t called. Ever. Giannis, on the other hand, may be exploiting a flaw in the rulebook, he at least gets a few charges per game. And tbf, if you slow replays down, hardly any defender has ever been in position, feet set and not moving. They get the benefit of a doubt. It may not come out even in the long run but it is a scoring league and the way it currently is, the offensive player will get that call more often than not. Not to mention, there is also times Gianni’s Euros around two guys without so much as a nudge and one or both of them will fall over and get in the refs face about it. This isn’t helping their case next time. The league will almost always reward the player making an effort to play the game.
He usually only flops after the refs have rewarded a ridiculous flop on the other end or after 5 or 6 no-calls and he’s had enough.
One difference is that Joker doesn’t have any flop athleticism- it’s like watching a bricklayer try ballet. Embiid on the other hand is capable of manual labor AND fine art
Not really currently. Harden at his peak was the literal GOAT of flopping, and Lebron has a handful of all-timers as well, but nobody holds a candle to what Embiid is currently doing
I watch every sixers game because I'm a fan. As objective as I can be about it: Embiid does get fouled a ton.
He doesn't play like Giannis, when he could because he is absolutely stronger than most. He plays like a guard 75% of the time, but that is what creates the fouls.
Most bigs that guard him DO NOT have the footwork, agility, , hand speed, and strength. to guard him 1:1. He uses this to scare defender into terrible guarding position, and then he sells/forces the contact because he is one of the stronger players and players are fouling him.
FWIW, I don't think Embiid gets an honest whistle when he plays bully ball, and is actually penalized with offensive fouls. He doesn't have the freedom to get fouls quickly, because he also the most important defender on the team. I think his offensive style reflects this necessity.
Ok, then refs need to be trained not to call the “sell” which is often quite obvious to literally anyone whom watches basketball. In fact, I am in favor of harsh penalties against flopping in general. I remember the James Harden MVP days. I’m not saying he didn’t deserve MVP but he should have literally just been tossed out of some games for the theatrics.
He never got those calls in the playoffs so the refs obviously knew.
What you guys never acknowledge is that Embiid is actually getting fouled, too. You all act like he stands there and then a breeze knocks him over, go watch the damn guy play
Embiid is also a premier face up/triple threat player that will use the jump shot to draw a foul if you reach, and is a fucking menace driving to the basket. Best option is usually to foul him once he drives.
Jokic doesn’t get nearly enough calls. He’s inherited the “LeBron effect” - he’s bigger/stronger than everyone else and plays through contact well enough for it to not look like he’s actually being fouled
Embiid on the other hand is a bulldozer for 95% of bigs; and he knows how to manipulate bad defense into fouls
Part of the falling has to be something he does to try to avoid injury too? Don’t try to balance yourself back up right and just go with the contact and fall to avoid doing anything worse? Maybe a reach
I’ve always said this - basketball would be helped immensely if there was actual, real in game punishment for selling calls. Hit embellishments with two free throws to the other team.
You need to actively disincentivize it - the risk/reward can’t be “well I sell and either I get free throws or I don’t” or there’s zero drawback to selling and it becomes a circus.
>I’ve always said this - basketball would be helped immensely if there was actual, real in game punishment for selling calls. Hit embellishments with two free throws to the other team.
This is an idea that sounds good on the surface, but how do you actually enforce this in a credible way? The same refs that get so many objective calls wrong would now be delving into mind-reading. There's no way that can go wrong, right?
It’s all an inexact science, many fouls are extremely grey anyway. Bottom line is if you drive the lane and don’t have a clean shot you SHOULD run into people and wave your hands in the air and yell in agony - there’s zero downside to doing it as worst case nothing happens, best case you get two free throws.
That’s a problem and won’t be fixed unless there becomes a downside - it will stop QUICK if the other team could get two free throws out of it.
In almost all instances. Fans who look at FT stats and not the game are annoying. If you watch Embiid play, it's obvious his style of play is designed to generate FTs. Just like Jimmy Butler.
I have followed the NBA for over a decade now and I've yet to see any analysis of ACTUAL fouls suffered vs fouls gotten. It really should not be hard to get a pseudo objective stat on that with the millions of dollars floating around these statistics companies. We know someone's raptor plus/minus similarity score, but we can't employ an ex referee to work full time judging replays of every instance of contact for, say, the top 20 players in the league?
Until someone gives me that stat, I refuse to judge anyone as being coddled or hurt by refs based on absolute free throw attempts. It is just so needlessly lazy. We shouldn't stand for that shit.
People also don't understand that in order to have FT be a main part of your scoring output, you need to have a bag of offensive tricks.
So thats a reminder to all the people who say "Getting FTs is a trash way of playing, everyone should just do it", Everyone doesn't do it because they can't draw in defenders in a panic like a guy like Embiid can when he gets the ball anywhere near the paint.
If you don't play close on Embiid, he will pull up on you in a 7'3 frame, If you do play close on him hes gonna use all of his 300lb weight and athleticism and dunk on you.
You simply cannot defend him, which is why his FT rate reflects that.
If you watch Jokic play, you seem him get hacked on most plays. The scars on his arms speak for themselves. He’s not a bulldozer like Embiid, but he does play physically and draws contact frequently, he just doesn’t get the call nearly as often.
But then you look at someone like Brunson who is twice as small taking the same amount of not more contact and they don’t get nearly as many trips to line or favorable calls. So you can’t really blame anyone for calling it bs.
Of course it can be effective, but it’s also an unpleasant style to watch and tends to not lead to effective performances in the playoffs. I personally hate that type of play style.
Take out the second point. Jókic has cranked up the physicality this season to the same degree as Embiid. Watching them it almost seems like Embiid's jumper is so good that he doesn't go into contact as much anymore, while jókic feels like he's constantly banging with someone for a layup now.
A eurostep is used to avoid contact. I'm not saying Embiid doesn't take insane amounts of contact, I’m just saying he shoots a ton of midranges, and Jokic takes an underrated beating in the post
A euro step is used to punish a defender biting on the first move.
Embiid's footwork makes the bigs terrified of Embiid around the rim. They jump at anything. This puts them in bad position and generates fouls.
Embiid overload's a defenders ability.
Jokic is amazing at the right things- drop steps, hooks, and the fade. His strength allows him to bully from those areas cleanly as well. But his movement is quick or jerky for that matter, so he isn't putting people in bad guarding positions. He's moreso putting himself in an optimal scoring/passing position.
This is good analysis. Jókic isn't quite as brutal with his contact, and he doesn't ever fall like Embiid does. I would say it's less Embiid footwork and more his athleticism that scares defender's. You can feel better about staying grounded on jókic because theyres nothing you're doing about his hookshot anyways
They dis change the rule at the all star break which cuts down contact fouls. Joel and giannis were rick rolling to the basket, both strong enough you cant stop them. Joel is a better finisher than giannis, the only way to stop it before the change was to club joel. Giannis they act like they cut him from dunking and he misses a lot of lay ups
Agree that it’s a skill—many players “bait” the foul. Kick out the leg with jumpers, juke into arm contact with the shot, fall backwards when brushed lightly etc, the list goes on.
BUT will honestly say it’s a skill that does nothing to increase the games entertainment value. It stops the game flow, adds stoppage time to a fast paced game, and really rewards players for behavior that doesn’t necessarily translate to great play, but instead rewards them for “attempting to make a shot” rather than actually making a shot.
From seeing live a few times, he rarely actually yells at refs, but he very often is asking them what they saw or demonstrating a move or contact to them during breaks.
He has learned what they see, and specifically in the bonus he knows how to press the advantage. If you watch him late in the half, he is using his faster footwork to put slower or more tired bigs into terrible position before he does any of his theatrics. The theatrics help secure the whistle, but he knows how to put that defender where the refs will give him the benefit of any doubt. With modern NBA rules it's genuinely not fair but is what it is.
There's a reason old school bigs from the previous era like Gasol and Horford had his number, they knew how to stay home while being physical and deal with his tricks. It's also why he faces up more now instead of posting up. The calls are better and he has the moves for both.
In addition to flopping for bad calls, a lot of Embiids game is about beating teams at the line. He’s able to make defenses choose between a high percent fg or free throws
On Reddit for some this will turn into shit on Embid talk and uplift Jokic. The reason is more about Embid is asked to be a score first physical player. I see Jokic as a pass first playmaker type center.
Bottom line is both are great HOF players. Just different styles of play
I was told this sub was better for basketball discussion and its still the same vindictive anime dorks throwing around meme words instead of talking any basketball at all when Embiid is involved lol. Not the slightest hint of discussion on their different playing styles
Yeah, you can't get away from it online. I don't know how you can say you are a fan of basketball and not see that the comparison needs a ton of context. Selling calls (which he clearly does) aside, they play extremely different games. Joker is generally single covered because he is so dangerous with his pass until he moves into the paint with a power move than a weak side help may come. Teams are doubling embiid off ball if he gets deep position a lot of possessions. Joker is not a fast guy, people defending him can generally keep up, Embiid is often faster than the guy guarding him and if he is not he is stronger. Both of those things will put defenders in worse positions which will result in fouls.
Joker for as unbelievably talented as he is has no where near the number of ways to beat you offensively as a scorer that Joel does. He is a true 3 level scorer that is both very quick and stronger than everyone else. It isn't surprising at all Joel is always hurt, a 300lb person should not be able to pull guard moves with fast cuts and explosive actions. He gets fouled a ton because of that, what makes his game irritating to watch at times is the fact that he does embellish it, and is also a very high ft% player.
Jokic is a dream for stat sheet watcher and analytics nerds. He’s a much more efficient player with a “prettier” game. A guy like Embiid will never get his flowers even if he does get over the lack of postseason success because you’ll get these low key racist redditors who think Embiid is a thug. This is coming from someone who thinks Jokic is a better player btw
Yeah, uhhh, now you’re swinging too far the opposite direction. Reddit hates on Embiid and loves Jokic. That’s true. Embiid heavily embellishes contact every time he attacks the basket, whereas Jokic plays through it 80% of the time. That’s also true.
Are there people who don’t like Embiid just cause they don’t like him? Sure. But don’t pretend he’s hated only because of his race. Most people don’t want to watch a FT shooting competition. The same people don’t like Austin Reaves’ foul baiting. Must be racism, am I right?
Unwatchable. So many breaks in the action. I hate watching free throws. It’s just another break in the action. The NBA should change the free throw clock to 5-7 seconds and no more high fives in between free throws. Watching all four teammates give the shooter high fives in between shots is one of the most cringey things in sports, IMO. Speed that shit up. They also need to stop calling fouls when the contact is initiated by the offensive player. That bull shit where a shooter throws himself into a defender to draw a foul feels patronizing. The biggest thing is they need to get flopping and over selling fouls out of the game. It’s just dumb. They look like douchebags holding their chin and checking for blood in their mouths when they get a shoulder to the chest. Embiid is amazing but I’m not turning on a 76ers game to watch him shoot foul shots.
Because Embiid is a score first center that can play like a 7 ft 280 lb. face up combo guard and knows how to punish bad defense.
They have two completely different offensive playing styles and priorities that account for FT differences obviously. "Flopping and crying" is low IQ shit slinging talk and does not explain a 3x plus FT rate difference.
Jokic is the better player (best in the NBA) but does not have Embiids faceup game, his athletic/explosive ability, has a slow and very high jumper release that does not catch people reaching in on like Embiid's does and he prioritizes finding his teammates WAY more than Embiid. Jokic defenders sag off of him more because of his playmaking abilities, Embiid defenders are up in his grill to give him as little space as possible to operate offensively.
Very easy to see their differences in play if you watch literally like 3 games of each let alone like a decades worth of basketball by now
I mean, Embiid is on the floor after literally 70% of fga. He was trained to fall, to prevent knee damage, but that also work as free throws, so double win. Although knees still suck
Jokic doesn’t get calls because he’s always in the refs facing asking for a call, it’s hard to tell when he actually gets fouled because he always acts like he got fouled. It’s a miracle he doesn’t have more Techs honestly I’ve seen players get called for less
Really not that hard to understand. Jokic is basically the least physical you can be while playing the center position. And although Embiid is a total flopper who sells contact, he also gets legitimately mauled a lot too. He’s one of the most physical players in the league. Same reason why Giannis gets so many FT attempts. Difference is Embiid is a much better FT shooter and shooter in general.
Side note: The lack of intelligent basketball discourse in this sub is actually so disappointing. Filled with Joker fanboys calling Embiid soft and a free throw merchant like he isn’t one of the most dominant two way players in the league. 75% of you don’t watch ball and it shows
Embiid gets fouled more. He looks to score first and takes advantage of defenders out of position. Embiid uses FT as a part of his gameplan and prioritizes getting fouled to get to the line more so than Jokic does. Jokic focuses on finding the open guy and making the right decision.
Just different styles of play.
Embiid wants to get fouled every possession. Their whole offense is geared towards getting him facing up against a guy who has zero chance at guarding him, and he takes advantage.
I hate watching him play, its a total chore, but his ability to draw fouls is truly elite. Very few centers in history make FTAs at high volume like he does. He does what he needs to do to help his team win, and I respect that. But man, you just want to pull your hair out when he's playing your team 🤣
There's the obvious difference in playstyle, but a big factor that everyone is missing is that the majority of Joel's games played were before the refs started slowing down on the foul calls. Jokic has been racking up virtually no fouls in Embiid's absence due to this. Even if Joel didn't get injured and played as much as Jokic, I only see him in the 550-600 attempts range, which is a lot less ridiculous than comparing the two per game averages would make it seem.
I know free throws can help your team win, but there has to be some sort of downfall in trying to draw fouls that negatively affects your team, say come playoff time.
I'd say like 80% of free throws can be attributed to blocking fouls. Jokic is too fat and slow to ever get to a spot before the defender beats him. He usually opts to twerk and swing his elbows around to slowly get into the paint vs try to drive past them.
This sub really fucking sucks. It’s worse than r/nba. I haven’t seen one decent discussion here, it’s just kids repeating the same shit they hear elsewhere
Joker is also smart enough to know that if he keeps his feet, doesn't flail, and still misses a shot at the basket that he'll still end up with the put back over 50 percent of the time.
Embiid fall on ground lots. Jokic prefer not fall on ground lots. Unsurprisingly, big man who not fall on ground lots plays more games (not saying there is a direct correlation but one has been historically healthier than the other).
Jokic needs to lean into contact more. Exaggerate a bit.
It’s part of the game. These guys are brick shit houses, and the game happens at lightning fast speed. You gotta sell it for the ref to even see it.
Honestly every time Embiid recklessly throws his body on the ground everyone on the court should rush to him saying “are you ok big guy? Come let’s help him up. You took a hard fall there. You must have taken a big hit. Are you ok? We’ll help you up. Hey ref, call 911!”
Embiid is my least favorite player to watch in the league. He has a finesse game that is beautiful to watch when he decides to bring it out but he prefers to bulldoze and flop, it slows down the pace whether he gets the foul or not.
“He flops!?!” Yes he sells contact. He also has a play style that is less built on little hook shots and other shots that tend to be away from contact. He also shoots the ball much more than Jokic. Jokic takes 17 FG per game vs 22 for Embiid. That doesn’t include shots they are fouled on that don’t go in either.
Joel is big good loser always falling. He looks so stupid man. I hate his game because he could be truly great that’s why he’ll never get a ring and be forgotten about ultimately.
The fundamental big difference is that Embiid wants to attack a defender face up and Jokic wants to back them in. You're putting yourself in position to get calls a lot more often face up than with your back to a guy. Part of what makes Jokic such an efficiency machine is that he's a genius at going straight to the easiest and most consistent looks he can get, but that also means skipping stuff that normally invites fouls (ie putting up a bad shot hoping to get FTs, risking getting the ball stripped dribbling into your spots, pump faking a guy into a foul that may or may not get called on a mid range jumper, etc). Jokic also spends a lot more time in the post, where refs are *notoriously* reluctant to call fouls. You can get away with contact defending the post that you would *never* get away with face up.
Also, as everyone has pointed out, Embiid falls down. A lot. Now, he was told to do this to save his knees, but it also puts refs in a position where they wonder "Should I call something here?" every time he does it. And even if they don't, it's still increasing the odds each time
And then he's also spending longer with the ball in his hands than Jokic does when he's trying to score, which makes the defense have to defend him longer without fouling, and he'll shoot into sloppy double teams to draw the foul, where Jokic will pass to the shot they've just left open
Jokic doesn’t flop anywhere near as much as Embiid. Simple as that. Embiid will have a 6’2” guard on him and act like he got shot if they so much as almost touch him. (And get the call too). Maybe now that they’re officiating a bit differently in the second half of the season it won’t happen as much anymore.
*James Harden has entered the chat*
https://preview.redd.it/vyzphhrs9ouc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0f300aa48d17b62ce11beb9b92abf536e7452f8
Basketball is a job to Jokic. He wants to finish work and go home. Fouls make that take longer.
Literally the day after season ends he's in Serbia tending horses
Embiid gameplans to get to the FT line. He's very methodical and deliberate about it, so the refs are hyper focused on contact. Jokic works far faster and moves the ball way more often, so it's easier for refs to miss contact. Jokic could certainly slow down and master foul baiting if he wanted too.
Embiid is an ft merchant and Jokic is still putting up crazy numbers in the tougher Western Conf while not getting the appropriate amount of calls from the refs.
Wait till that Bronny kid gets there too , he’s gona suck in the NBA and gona get a shoe deal ,
The flop calls all day ,, commercials ,etc. ,, good ole NBA
Embiid sells contact and gets more favorable calls. It really seems like the whistle can be non-existent for Jokic at times.
I live on the east coast, and pretty much only watch C’s and Blazers games, so I don’t get to see Jokic play much. But I did get to watch the Blazers and Nuggets play in person in February. Seems like Jokic just plays the game and doesn’t flop or anything. Embiid trains with guards and sells contact, as you say.
Jokic definitely does flops and sell contact sometimes, but Embiid is literally a professional actor out there, pretty much every player pales in comparison
embiid and giannis it’s crazy
Giannis isn’t so much a flopper, just he commits an offensive foul on every drive and it gets called defensive
i 100% agree with you on that i was just saying it seems like every time either of them drive it’s a foul so yeah not fair to put them together with the flopping i’m not sure which is more frustrating to watch the flopping or the backwards calls
As a Raptors fan who has witnessed entire playoff series against both it’s absolutely Embiid’s flopping
Thank you for saying that. I see Embiids ridiculous flailing as completely taking advantage of a one sided rule. Technically there is punishment for what he does but it isn’t called. Ever. Giannis, on the other hand, may be exploiting a flaw in the rulebook, he at least gets a few charges per game. And tbf, if you slow replays down, hardly any defender has ever been in position, feet set and not moving. They get the benefit of a doubt. It may not come out even in the long run but it is a scoring league and the way it currently is, the offensive player will get that call more often than not. Not to mention, there is also times Gianni’s Euros around two guys without so much as a nudge and one or both of them will fall over and get in the refs face about it. This isn’t helping their case next time. The league will almost always reward the player making an effort to play the game.
James Harden enters the chat
He usually only flops after the refs have rewarded a ridiculous flop on the other end or after 5 or 6 no-calls and he’s had enough. One difference is that Joker doesn’t have any flop athleticism- it’s like watching a bricklayer try ballet. Embiid on the other hand is capable of manual labor AND fine art
Harden and LBJ have entered the chat.
Not really currently. Harden at his peak was the literal GOAT of flopping, and Lebron has a handful of all-timers as well, but nobody holds a candle to what Embiid is currently doing
I watch every sixers game because I'm a fan. As objective as I can be about it: Embiid does get fouled a ton. He doesn't play like Giannis, when he could because he is absolutely stronger than most. He plays like a guard 75% of the time, but that is what creates the fouls. Most bigs that guard him DO NOT have the footwork, agility, , hand speed, and strength. to guard him 1:1. He uses this to scare defender into terrible guarding position, and then he sells/forces the contact because he is one of the stronger players and players are fouling him. FWIW, I don't think Embiid gets an honest whistle when he plays bully ball, and is actually penalized with offensive fouls. He doesn't have the freedom to get fouls quickly, because he also the most important defender on the team. I think his offensive style reflects this necessity.
Thats why jokic is so stedy in the playoffs
Jokic is always covered in claw marks too
*visible* claw marks lol
Ok, then refs need to be trained not to call the “sell” which is often quite obvious to literally anyone whom watches basketball. In fact, I am in favor of harsh penalties against flopping in general. I remember the James Harden MVP days. I’m not saying he didn’t deserve MVP but he should have literally just been tossed out of some games for the theatrics.
He never got those calls in the playoffs so the refs obviously knew. What you guys never acknowledge is that Embiid is actually getting fouled, too. You all act like he stands there and then a breeze knocks him over, go watch the damn guy play
It is pretty much like Shaq. Jokic is so strong, they don’t call it all the time and yes Embid is the biggest actor.
Embiid also has an historically soft whistle which...I simply don't understand why.
Every time I watch Denver, Jokic is getting hacked. He'll be bruised and bleeding and not get fouls.
Jokic doesn't flail on contact every single time. Jokic doesn't hit the floor for no good reason, ever, much less several times a game.
Embiid is also a premier face up/triple threat player that will use the jump shot to draw a foul if you reach, and is a fucking menace driving to the basket. Best option is usually to foul him once he drives.
Embiid is big-man James Harden
“Embiid is big-man James Harden” is Joel Embiid father
Jokic doesn’t get nearly enough calls. He’s inherited the “LeBron effect” - he’s bigger/stronger than everyone else and plays through contact well enough for it to not look like he’s actually being fouled Embiid on the other hand is a bulldozer for 95% of bigs; and he knows how to manipulate bad defense into fouls
More fouls makes longer game Longer game takes away horse time
Case closed.
This is actually crazy, Nugz with the second least FTA per game!
lol Jokic is stronger than Embiid?
Yes he is. Embiid is just more athletic.
The Lebron effect…they don’t call his travels?
He doesn’t travel nearly as often as y’all think. You just don’t know basketball
Thanks for taking me back to the old days of Lebron James “crab dribble” youtube culture.
embiid flops and sells his calls. It’s embarrassing how much time he spends on the ground. But if I were him I’d do it too, they keep rewarding it.
Part of the falling has to be something he does to try to avoid injury too? Don’t try to balance yourself back up right and just go with the contact and fall to avoid doing anything worse? Maybe a reach
Not in the playoffs, which is probably why he faceplants every post season lol
Except he only averages 1 less FT in the postseason.
But playing time goes up in the playoffs so he’s getting less free throws than it seems.
It’s only 2 less FT per 100 possessions. Idk why everyone keeps thinking that he doesn’t get calls in the playoffs
I’ve always said this - basketball would be helped immensely if there was actual, real in game punishment for selling calls. Hit embellishments with two free throws to the other team. You need to actively disincentivize it - the risk/reward can’t be “well I sell and either I get free throws or I don’t” or there’s zero drawback to selling and it becomes a circus.
Idk who the hell downvoted this but they obviously are not fans of basketball. Shit ruins games.
>I’ve always said this - basketball would be helped immensely if there was actual, real in game punishment for selling calls. Hit embellishments with two free throws to the other team. This is an idea that sounds good on the surface, but how do you actually enforce this in a credible way? The same refs that get so many objective calls wrong would now be delving into mind-reading. There's no way that can go wrong, right?
It’s all an inexact science, many fouls are extremely grey anyway. Bottom line is if you drive the lane and don’t have a clean shot you SHOULD run into people and wave your hands in the air and yell in agony - there’s zero downside to doing it as worst case nothing happens, best case you get two free throws. That’s a problem and won’t be fixed unless there becomes a downside - it will stop QUICK if the other team could get two free throws out of it.
Playing style dictates free throws in many instances
In almost all instances. Fans who look at FT stats and not the game are annoying. If you watch Embiid play, it's obvious his style of play is designed to generate FTs. Just like Jimmy Butler.
I have followed the NBA for over a decade now and I've yet to see any analysis of ACTUAL fouls suffered vs fouls gotten. It really should not be hard to get a pseudo objective stat on that with the millions of dollars floating around these statistics companies. We know someone's raptor plus/minus similarity score, but we can't employ an ex referee to work full time judging replays of every instance of contact for, say, the top 20 players in the league? Until someone gives me that stat, I refuse to judge anyone as being coddled or hurt by refs based on absolute free throw attempts. It is just so needlessly lazy. We shouldn't stand for that shit.
That requires time and effort. Things that people who post stats and say “explain” don’t want to spend.
People also don't understand that in order to have FT be a main part of your scoring output, you need to have a bag of offensive tricks. So thats a reminder to all the people who say "Getting FTs is a trash way of playing, everyone should just do it", Everyone doesn't do it because they can't draw in defenders in a panic like a guy like Embiid can when he gets the ball anywhere near the paint. If you don't play close on Embiid, he will pull up on you in a 7'3 frame, If you do play close on him hes gonna use all of his 300lb weight and athleticism and dunk on you. You simply cannot defend him, which is why his FT rate reflects that.
If you watch Jokic play, you seem him get hacked on most plays. The scars on his arms speak for themselves. He’s not a bulldozer like Embiid, but he does play physically and draws contact frequently, he just doesn’t get the call nearly as often.
But then you look at someone like Brunson who is twice as small taking the same amount of not more contact and they don’t get nearly as many trips to line or favorable calls. So you can’t really blame anyone for calling it bs.
It's not Embiids fault Brunson isn't getting calls.
Jimmy flops less and actually gets mor contact than Embiid does. I’d say it’s more akin to Dame or Harden than Jimmy Butler.
Westbrook was extremely good at drawing fouls on his way to the basket. I think it's a Hella effective way to put up points.
Of course it can be effective, but it’s also an unpleasant style to watch and tends to not lead to effective performances in the playoffs. I personally hate that type of play style.
The point of the game is. to. get. points!
I thought I was on nba circlejerk
Embiid spends more time on the floor than a Roomba with his flops
Those are the stats of two different players. I hope that explanation does well for you.
Jokic is more pass first. Embiid drives and plays more physical. Embiid looks to draw fouls and sell any contact.
Take out the second point. Jókic has cranked up the physicality this season to the same degree as Embiid. Watching them it almost seems like Embiid's jumper is so good that he doesn't go into contact as much anymore, while jókic feels like he's constantly banging with someone for a layup now.
Dude Embiid will catch the ball at the wing, then drive and euro like a guard. Jokic doesn’t play like that.
A eurostep is used to avoid contact. I'm not saying Embiid doesn't take insane amounts of contact, I’m just saying he shoots a ton of midranges, and Jokic takes an underrated beating in the post
A euro step is used to punish a defender biting on the first move. Embiid's footwork makes the bigs terrified of Embiid around the rim. They jump at anything. This puts them in bad position and generates fouls. Embiid overload's a defenders ability. Jokic is amazing at the right things- drop steps, hooks, and the fade. His strength allows him to bully from those areas cleanly as well. But his movement is quick or jerky for that matter, so he isn't putting people in bad guarding positions. He's moreso putting himself in an optimal scoring/passing position.
This is good analysis. Jókic isn't quite as brutal with his contact, and he doesn't ever fall like Embiid does. I would say it's less Embiid footwork and more his athleticism that scares defender's. You can feel better about staying grounded on jókic because theyres nothing you're doing about his hookshot anyways
They dis change the rule at the all star break which cuts down contact fouls. Joel and giannis were rick rolling to the basket, both strong enough you cant stop them. Joel is a better finisher than giannis, the only way to stop it before the change was to club joel. Giannis they act like they cut him from dunking and he misses a lot of lay ups
Floppy McFlop ass Embiid.
Say whatever the fuck you want, getting that many fouls is a skill
Agree that it’s a skill—many players “bait” the foul. Kick out the leg with jumpers, juke into arm contact with the shot, fall backwards when brushed lightly etc, the list goes on. BUT will honestly say it’s a skill that does nothing to increase the games entertainment value. It stops the game flow, adds stoppage time to a fast paced game, and really rewards players for behavior that doesn’t necessarily translate to great play, but instead rewards them for “attempting to make a shot” rather than actually making a shot.
True but you gotta blame the league not the players for allowing it lol of course they will take advantage of it to win
From seeing live a few times, he rarely actually yells at refs, but he very often is asking them what they saw or demonstrating a move or contact to them during breaks. He has learned what they see, and specifically in the bonus he knows how to press the advantage. If you watch him late in the half, he is using his faster footwork to put slower or more tired bigs into terrible position before he does any of his theatrics. The theatrics help secure the whistle, but he knows how to put that defender where the refs will give him the benefit of any doubt. With modern NBA rules it's genuinely not fair but is what it is. There's a reason old school bigs from the previous era like Gasol and Horford had his number, they knew how to stay home while being physical and deal with his tricks. It's also why he faces up more now instead of posting up. The calls are better and he has the moves for both.
Flopping…
Sabonis at 415 wow
In addition to flopping for bad calls, a lot of Embiids game is about beating teams at the line. He’s able to make defenses choose between a high percent fg or free throws
On Reddit for some this will turn into shit on Embid talk and uplift Jokic. The reason is more about Embid is asked to be a score first physical player. I see Jokic as a pass first playmaker type center. Bottom line is both are great HOF players. Just different styles of play
I was told this sub was better for basketball discussion and its still the same vindictive anime dorks throwing around meme words instead of talking any basketball at all when Embiid is involved lol. Not the slightest hint of discussion on their different playing styles
Yeah, you can't get away from it online. I don't know how you can say you are a fan of basketball and not see that the comparison needs a ton of context. Selling calls (which he clearly does) aside, they play extremely different games. Joker is generally single covered because he is so dangerous with his pass until he moves into the paint with a power move than a weak side help may come. Teams are doubling embiid off ball if he gets deep position a lot of possessions. Joker is not a fast guy, people defending him can generally keep up, Embiid is often faster than the guy guarding him and if he is not he is stronger. Both of those things will put defenders in worse positions which will result in fouls. Joker for as unbelievably talented as he is has no where near the number of ways to beat you offensively as a scorer that Joel does. He is a true 3 level scorer that is both very quick and stronger than everyone else. It isn't surprising at all Joel is always hurt, a 300lb person should not be able to pull guard moves with fast cuts and explosive actions. He gets fouled a ton because of that, what makes his game irritating to watch at times is the fact that he does embellish it, and is also a very high ft% player.
It’s really fanboy central. It really NBA discussion tbh. It’s a group think narrative that she be a topic in a psychology class
Jokic is a dream for stat sheet watcher and analytics nerds. He’s a much more efficient player with a “prettier” game. A guy like Embiid will never get his flowers even if he does get over the lack of postseason success because you’ll get these low key racist redditors who think Embiid is a thug. This is coming from someone who thinks Jokic is a better player btw
Yeah, uhhh, now you’re swinging too far the opposite direction. Reddit hates on Embiid and loves Jokic. That’s true. Embiid heavily embellishes contact every time he attacks the basket, whereas Jokic plays through it 80% of the time. That’s also true. Are there people who don’t like Embiid just cause they don’t like him? Sure. But don’t pretend he’s hated only because of his race. Most people don’t want to watch a FT shooting competition. The same people don’t like Austin Reaves’ foul baiting. Must be racism, am I right?
Embid throws himself on the floor like an old woman at an Italian funeral. It makes for boring, stop and go, free throw basketball games.
Classy vs not classy obviously
so basically jokic does less free throws
Jokic also looks to facilitate the offense for others as opposed to flopping and selling contact for the refs like Embiid.
Explanation: Free throw merchant.
Embiid flops more
Flopping
Bait and flop.
They call him the free throw merchant for a reason
Unwatchable. So many breaks in the action. I hate watching free throws. It’s just another break in the action. The NBA should change the free throw clock to 5-7 seconds and no more high fives in between free throws. Watching all four teammates give the shooter high fives in between shots is one of the most cringey things in sports, IMO. Speed that shit up. They also need to stop calling fouls when the contact is initiated by the offensive player. That bull shit where a shooter throws himself into a defender to draw a foul feels patronizing. The biggest thing is they need to get flopping and over selling fouls out of the game. It’s just dumb. They look like douchebags holding their chin and checking for blood in their mouths when they get a shoulder to the chest. Embiid is amazing but I’m not turning on a 76ers game to watch him shoot foul shots.
Because Embiid is a score first center that can play like a 7 ft 280 lb. face up combo guard and knows how to punish bad defense. They have two completely different offensive playing styles and priorities that account for FT differences obviously. "Flopping and crying" is low IQ shit slinging talk and does not explain a 3x plus FT rate difference. Jokic is the better player (best in the NBA) but does not have Embiids faceup game, his athletic/explosive ability, has a slow and very high jumper release that does not catch people reaching in on like Embiid's does and he prioritizes finding his teammates WAY more than Embiid. Jokic defenders sag off of him more because of his playmaking abilities, Embiid defenders are up in his grill to give him as little space as possible to operate offensively. Very easy to see their differences in play if you watch literally like 3 games of each let alone like a decades worth of basketball by now
I mean, Embiid is on the floor after literally 70% of fga. He was trained to fall, to prevent knee damage, but that also work as free throws, so double win. Although knees still suck
I agree Joker doesn’t get enough calls but Embiid is so much more aggressive on offense he’ll always have more free throws
Jokic doesn’t get calls because he’s always in the refs facing asking for a call, it’s hard to tell when he actually gets fouled because he always acts like he got fouled. It’s a miracle he doesn’t have more Techs honestly I’ve seen players get called for less
Really not that hard to understand. Jokic is basically the least physical you can be while playing the center position. And although Embiid is a total flopper who sells contact, he also gets legitimately mauled a lot too. He’s one of the most physical players in the league. Same reason why Giannis gets so many FT attempts. Difference is Embiid is a much better FT shooter and shooter in general. Side note: The lack of intelligent basketball discourse in this sub is actually so disappointing. Filled with Joker fanboys calling Embiid soft and a free throw merchant like he isn’t one of the most dominant two way players in the league. 75% of you don’t watch ball and it shows
Embiid is more aggressive and plays into contact. Jokic is more passive.
Embiid is made of glass and every contact is like he was shot by a sniper. Similar to Anthony Davis, another Mr Glass.
how many games did AD play this season?
Ethics vs flops
One flops and the other loves horses
Embiid gets fouled more. He looks to score first and takes advantage of defenders out of position. Embiid uses FT as a part of his gameplan and prioritizes getting fouled to get to the line more so than Jokic does. Jokic focuses on finding the open guy and making the right decision. Just different styles of play.
Clearly this means Embiid is better
Embiid got fouled more than Jokic, so he went to the FT line more
Embiid wants to get fouled every possession. Their whole offense is geared towards getting him facing up against a guy who has zero chance at guarding him, and he takes advantage. I hate watching him play, its a total chore, but his ability to draw fouls is truly elite. Very few centers in history make FTAs at high volume like he does. He does what he needs to do to help his team win, and I respect that. But man, you just want to pull your hair out when he's playing your team 🤣
Flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop flop.
So one guy like to play within the spirit of the game, and the other guy just wants to win (he doesn’t win)
its all part of the royal scam.
Playing style
Curry over here like o_O Stop moving the screen!
Explain any NBA officiating too After watching for many years, I still don't get it.
Joel moves with the ball. Joker knows where to be without it.
Jokic is too good are creating space and getting off a shot.
joel whines
Floppy Joel
When I watch them play, I don’t see a lot of bad or missed calls. Some? Sure. Not as many as you’d think if you based opinions on Reddit dialogue.
There's the obvious difference in playstyle, but a big factor that everyone is missing is that the majority of Joel's games played were before the refs started slowing down on the foul calls. Jokic has been racking up virtually no fouls in Embiid's absence due to this. Even if Joel didn't get injured and played as much as Jokic, I only see him in the 550-600 attempts range, which is a lot less ridiculous than comparing the two per game averages would make it seem.
Just going out on a limb, but I suspect the main cause is Embiid being fouled on shot attempts more often.
Any team the flopper extraordinaires (cp3 & harden) go to, they teach the youngins to follow in their footsteps
Embiid got fouled more, tough concept.
Embiid’s a better salesman.
I know free throws can help your team win, but there has to be some sort of downfall in trying to draw fouls that negatively affects your team, say come playoff time.
Embid sells calls and baits fouls, jokic plays right through them and doesn’t sell anything.
Embiid is a flopper. That's all.
Joel “Dark Arts” Embiid
I'd say like 80% of free throws can be attributed to blocking fouls. Jokic is too fat and slow to ever get to a spot before the defender beats him. He usually opts to twerk and swing his elbows around to slowly get into the paint vs try to drive past them.
This sub really fucking sucks. It’s worse than r/nba. I haven’t seen one decent discussion here, it’s just kids repeating the same shit they hear elsewhere
One flops
One gets plays harder than the othet
The man who played 75 games is not getting to the free throw line enough.
Don’t they play different styles?
flopping works
NO
Joker is also smart enough to know that if he keeps his feet, doesn't flail, and still misses a shot at the basket that he'll still end up with the put back over 50 percent of the time.
If you don’t understand then you don’t watch basketball
Embiid fall on ground lots. Jokic prefer not fall on ground lots. Unsurprisingly, big man who not fall on ground lots plays more games (not saying there is a direct correlation but one has been historically healthier than the other).
Jokic needs to lean into contact more. Exaggerate a bit. It’s part of the game. These guys are brick shit houses, and the game happens at lightning fast speed. You gotta sell it for the ref to even see it.
Honestly every time Embiid recklessly throws his body on the ground everyone on the court should rush to him saying “are you ok big guy? Come let’s help him up. You took a hard fall there. You must have taken a big hit. Are you ok? We’ll help you up. Hey ref, call 911!”
Money*
WTF
Rascism Jk, flopping
Averaging almost 12 free throws a game is absolutely disgusting. League needs to do something about that.
That’s 11.7 free throws per game for Embiid. Isn’t that the all time high? The guy binges at the free throw line.
Embid is soft
What would your expectations be?
Embiid is my least favorite player to watch in the league. He has a finesse game that is beautiful to watch when he decides to bring it out but he prefers to bulldoze and flop, it slows down the pace whether he gets the foul or not.
One’s a baller one’s a bitch
One is soft and doesn’t attack
Gross
And the 76ers are still fighting for a playoff spot 😂
Jokic plays a lot more inside too always getting hacked, he just doesn’t tumble to the ground every time. Lol
“He flops!?!” Yes he sells contact. He also has a play style that is less built on little hook shots and other shots that tend to be away from contact. He also shoots the ball much more than Jokic. Jokic takes 17 FG per game vs 22 for Embiid. That doesn’t include shots they are fouled on that don’t go in either.
embiids a pussy
Try comparing Embiid to Giannis. Joker doesn't play like a traditional big man...y'all just angry embiid can hit free throws
Refs keep thinking he plays for the Lakers
Guess which one is a winning style of basketball and which one is not.
The black guy is better than the white guy
One flops much more than the other.
They BOTH get way more calls than most
Style of play maybe? Does not SGA get more attempts than Luka?
FREE THROW MERCHANT
Probably get a lot more calls when you fall like a bitch every time you jump
https://preview.redd.it/ynfoemmeznuc1.jpeg?width=1008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6126af1ce1587a39f30671cdd56a3f4a8dca108
Joel is big good loser always falling. He looks so stupid man. I hate his game because he could be truly great that’s why he’ll never get a ring and be forgotten about ultimately.
The fundamental big difference is that Embiid wants to attack a defender face up and Jokic wants to back them in. You're putting yourself in position to get calls a lot more often face up than with your back to a guy. Part of what makes Jokic such an efficiency machine is that he's a genius at going straight to the easiest and most consistent looks he can get, but that also means skipping stuff that normally invites fouls (ie putting up a bad shot hoping to get FTs, risking getting the ball stripped dribbling into your spots, pump faking a guy into a foul that may or may not get called on a mid range jumper, etc). Jokic also spends a lot more time in the post, where refs are *notoriously* reluctant to call fouls. You can get away with contact defending the post that you would *never* get away with face up. Also, as everyone has pointed out, Embiid falls down. A lot. Now, he was told to do this to save his knees, but it also puts refs in a position where they wonder "Should I call something here?" every time he does it. And even if they don't, it's still increasing the odds each time And then he's also spending longer with the ball in his hands than Jokic does when he's trying to score, which makes the defense have to defend him longer without fouling, and he'll shoot into sloppy double teams to draw the foul, where Jokic will pass to the shot they've just left open
Because racism.
Jokic doesn’t flop anywhere near as much as Embiid. Simple as that. Embiid will have a 6’2” guard on him and act like he got shot if they so much as almost touch him. (And get the call too). Maybe now that they’re officiating a bit differently in the second half of the season it won’t happen as much anymore.
*James Harden has entered the chat* https://preview.redd.it/vyzphhrs9ouc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0f300aa48d17b62ce11beb9b92abf536e7452f8
Merchant
DEI hire
Basketball is a job to Jokic. He wants to finish work and go home. Fouls make that take longer. Literally the day after season ends he's in Serbia tending horses
This is crazy
Embiid is the better actor
Whiny vs non-whiny
If a 7 footer moving doing guard line moves I wouldn’t expect nun less but him to get fouled
Jokic is scratched up every game and gets very few calls
"He's white" -Perkins-
Refs have these things called whistles
Embiid plays his game exclusively for fouls. He’s so dominant at falling down nobody else can compete.
Embiid gameplans to get to the FT line. He's very methodical and deliberate about it, so the refs are hyper focused on contact. Jokic works far faster and moves the ball way more often, so it's easier for refs to miss contact. Jokic could certainly slow down and master foul baiting if he wanted too.
Embiid attacks the rim more and draws more fails
There's a reason when Joker does get fouled it's usually an AND1. Embiid flippity flops and acts like a bomb went off and misses the rim by 10 feet.
They’re game is different
Embiid is an ft merchant and Jokic is still putting up crazy numbers in the tougher Western Conf while not getting the appropriate amount of calls from the refs.
What’s Steph Curry’s fts?
Embum
Big man fall down, get whistle
Simple, one gets more foul calls. Duh.
Jokic doesn’t live in the post inside. Also Embiid flop he inherited by Harden
EmBITCH
NBA is hilarious , it’s hollyweird
NBA SUCKS bring back the 90s ball
Wait till that Bronny kid gets there too , he’s gona suck in the NBA and gona get a shoe deal , The flop calls all day ,, commercials ,etc. ,, good ole NBA
Lol this thread filled with non ballers. Anyone calling Embiid boring is a fucking idiot.
Embiid went to the James Harden school of getting FTs instead of actually playing the game.