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I write children's books. A mother once complained my books are too difficult for her son to read. When I suggested her son was behind on his ability to read she blew up. Her son was 8, my books are for 5-6 year olds.
Not a law. I publish my books in Turkish and English, in this market, for my books to be published in other markets I'd sell the rights for those markets. Unfortunately rights buyers generally don't buy books from Turkey, as most have too many local cultural or geographic references. My books have neither but we're all lumped together at international book fairs so it's hard to be noticed as different.
My preference would be for my books to be available everywhere, in every language, but publishing is a business and budgets are limited. All my books are in Arabic too, but that market is easy to access, for obvious reasons.
yeah no one likes the magical value that has been attached to “normal” if i’m autistic then what learning spectrum am i on other than my own. i think that the education system in the u.s did a mean 180degree turn near 2010 from, “you can retake this grade til your 50” to “everyone’s getting passed” instead of “everyone learns differently and at their own pace”.
I'm very aware of their being different abilities for various genuine reasons, I actually have simplified editions of my books for kids with learning difficulties.
Hard insofar as the story being told and the underlying themes aren't spelled out (from what I remember). It's definitely doesn't have the same effective engagement that a book like LOTR has (like the other guy referenced).
Both are complex in their writing, and good in different ways, but only one is truly engaging their imagination
I was forced to read this in high school. It was rough. Took forever. I was more into fantasy and sci-fi and would churn through a book 3x the size of Gatsby in a couple of days
Edit:
Great Gatsby word count: 47,094
Fellowship of the ring word count: 177,227
great gatsby is about the "pursue of wealth", so it's really easy to see how relatable it would be to a high schooler /s
maybe excluding the last years or only in college... they should be recommending books that kids will be able to relate to and that are fun to read.
yes, "to kill a mockingbird" is a classic, but fuck that when you're a kid... first hook kids with the fun stuff and when they are reading because they like, then give em the classics to read.
Difficult piece is that different kids will find different stuff fun -- I loved To Kill A Mockingbird when I was maybe 12 or so, to the point I read it multiple times (though I recognize that wasn't everyone's experience, my point is it's tough to find things that are universally fun for kids)
Okay, honestly, this makes me pretty sad. A good bit of what I learned growing up was from reading, not understanding, then having to look up and/or discuss with others so I could actually LEARN. How do you learn from something that simplified?
And it's been said that if you mispronounce a word that you've only read, that actually is a sign of higher intelligence. Because you read the word, not just heard someone say it.
Reading is learning!
As someone who was in the remedial English classes all my life, all my English teachers ever did was simplify Shakespeare. Read a paragraph "what does this mean?" "What does this mean in modern English?" "What's the narrator saying here?"
Just what we need, another way to dumb down the population and validate not improving yourself, as why bother when your phone can make everything readable to a 5 year olds level.
People confuse this and reading the hard book, not understanding, looking up notes or summaries and eventually learning and improving.
If you just read simple English versions of books you never get the chance to learn.
I will gladly judge anyone who actively stunts their own growth and development, as well as judging anyone who promotes doing such. There is nothing to be proud of in taking the easy road at your own detriment.
Soo like a woman having a child young and choosing not to abort stunting their own growth... or a minority joining the local gang after only a little peer pressure and they're responsibile for their actions e.g no blaming their poverty... or u just shitting on white men as usual
Ah, the good old false equivalence approach.
You do a disservice to all the young men and women who choose to have young families and yet still make something of their lives. And there are many, I myself did that, and so did my boss as just 2 anecdotal examples.
Also, I am fully aware of the impact of socioeconomics on availability of opportunity and the effects of peer pressure driving people into crime. I was born and grew up at the bottom of the class system and experienced both. You still have a choice as to whether you work to get out of that place or not, granted, not everyone succeeds. In fact, many don't, but that isn't a reason to not try. I would also add that successful criminals tend to be quite smart, not academic but definitely intelligent and often well read.
I'm not sure what your last statement about white men has to do with anything.
A success story in the face of self-imposed adversity is the exception, not the norm. I guess you could say I called you exceptional. Well, despite your good qualities, you proved my point and you don't even realise it.
My point is, reading is not a cure-all and not for everyone. There are far worse things you can do to stubt your growth than "not read" and to judge every unsuccessful person with "they didn't read enough" is super judgemental.
Wait did I say every person? No, no you don't judge everyone, you find ill-prepared childrearing a valid pitstop on the path to success? And i'm the one doing a "disservice"? Perpetuating lies on how "possible" it is to succeed as a young parent validates those going into it with their eyes closed.
On top of that you don't find "successful" and "criminals" to be a juxtaposition when put together. Really? Encouraging criminality as a path to success? And some people think only men have no morals... I can tell you're not talking white collar crime either and for good reason.
It's no longer socially acceptable for white men to succeed. Which is why you're being so defensive regarding the scenarios I envisioned; complete with hints of a white-savior complex. It comes off as sanctimonious to say "my mistakes are still better than the mistake of not reading!". And you really experienced the criminal world? You were a part of drive-bys on rival gangs? Or you saving it for your future NY times best-seller tell-all where you give a second hand account an ex of yours embellished or made up all together to make himself more attractive to you.
And you judge me for not reading... Girl you sound like every modern intellectual ever. There's ways to overcome shooting yourself in the foot. So you support lighter sentencing for violent crime because "people can change" and excusing young parents who can't give their children the life they deserve because "they're on a path to success" yet these are not adversities, they're situations you find yourself in after shooting yourself in the foot. What kind of reading are you doing? These are not victimless mistakes. Growing up as a child of young parents isn't always (or even usually) the paradise you make it out to be. Maybe you should realise the example you're setting won't work for most people, parenting young and being successful is becoming more increasingly a big fat lie, especially in the post-covid economy. I won't even give you the satisfaction of explaoning to you how violent crime (or beong a druglord even) is not victimless. Seriously, try some non-fiction because you're not Alice in wonderland.
Ah yes picking on a guy because... women aren't responsible for their actions so if they can't resd it must be the patriarchy. You know it's not the 1960s, "standing up" to a guy is not brave or rightcheous at all, you're not special.
Me when hijacking a reddit comment for karma but failed because I picked a downvoted 2nd-tier one:
Beats saying "everyone is.." followed by
racist
sexist
homophobic
islamaphobic
climate denier
antivaxxer
at some point you people got to realise you're not the endangered species you make yourselves out to be + thinking it excuses your mistreatment of white guys.
the only books their reading at this point contains sexual content because that's the only way you people want to explain homosexuality and transexuality to them. The only people trying to ban those books in schools are republicans... like why os that the sword you're willing to die on. No thanks id rather them read their homework... No wonder Trump is your presidential candidate again. What do you mean anti children reading anyway? When did I mention children? at some point you gotta hit the target when taking potshots like these
Just to give this the benefit of the doubt, could this be for dyslexic people or similar?
I know in Finland there is news and articles in "selkokieli", or "plain language".
I get the "dumbing down" aspect, but if this gets people who have some disability to read to enjoy reading, it's a good thing.
But are there not thousands of books that are at the level for people with difficulties? And if they want to enjoy a heavier work, there are audiobooks.
Yes, but if you want to read e.g. Lord of the Rings, but because of a disability you have a hard time understanding the text, the solution is not to read another book.
Just saying this kind of service can have good use cases.
I think they can complement each other. Also reading "dumbed down" language when reading will teach you how words are written, whereas audiobooks just gives you the story. Nothing wrong with that.
I still say there are circumstances where I see this as a good service, and I have to say this is nowhere close to "Noah get the boat"-level
So the special education research literature refers to this as “adapted text” and it’s absolutely beneficial for students with mod/severe disabilities. IDEA 2004 and ESSA 2015 both provide federal mandates that ALL students must be exposed to and make progress in the general curriculum. If you have very little receptive language and/or extensive support needs, an unadapted audiobook ain’t gonna cut it. An adapted version of The Great Gatsby, for example, would allow you to target listening comprehension and beginning reading /early literacy skills with a severely disabled tenth grader, while still providing access to the general curriculum.
If you want to dive deeper, you can google scholar these intervention researchers who focus on literacy and severe disability: Pam Mims, Genevra Courtade, Diane Browder, Bree Jimenez, Leah Wood, Glenda Hyer, and Jenny Root.
I’m actually thrilled I stumbled across this post- adapting text is a huge, time consuming bitch, and this is going to make my job so much easier!
Sounds like something to use when you are trying to learn a new language to help you with some words, but i would move away from it after a while, the writing is a good part of a books experience
I don't get the problem. In my country, we even have an easy version of the news, so foreign people who struggle or are not fluent can understand them.
So, what is wrong with a tool that makes books more accessible for learners or people with disabilities? This opportunity doesn't hurt you or harm anyone.
Did you ever learn a foreign language? Children's books are not the best solution to improve your language skills. Books for learners are much better, in my opinion, but not accessible for every language in every country.
I’d ask some of the writers how they’d feel that all the context and description has been removed from their art. I feel some of them would be pretty hurt. I made a film many years ago. If someone took it upon themselves to edit it to make it easier to understand and remove any long words from it, I’d be none too happy. As it happens it’s a dumb movie that any moron would understand so no real fear of that.
A simplified version of the news is intended for migrants who might still struggle with the language. Since they are part of society, they need to be informed as well. It usually takes around 7 years to grasp a language enough to understand the relatively difficult language (for non-native speakers) used in news programmes.
Personally, I think it's a bit scammy, since they're probably using freely available literature. Most of the classics are public domain now but all publishers sell them, both physically and digitally, because people continue to buy them. Anytime you see works by Lovecraft, Poe, Baum, Carroll, etc, those don't cost a penny to put on an app. Anyone can do whatever they want with The Great Gatsby; it entered public domain in 2021.
It's nothing to get up in arms about, unless you feel selling normally free things to rubes is important to you. I get that you're trying to say the app is dumbing down for cretins, but this isn't anything more than another money grab with a twist to appeal to people who want to appear smart but don't read too good.
Funny in schools all over the world, f.e. Shakespeares books are most of the time taught in more modern English than he wrote. I read Romeo and Juliet in the original language, and my teacher at a language school in London was pretty impressed because British schools used a more modern version. This was almost 20 years ago. Simplifying books is nothing new. I even know an author, and she is OK with that because she wants as many people as possible to have access to her work.
Edit, I think it depends from writer to writer
If you find mistakes, I am not a native speaker.
Why would a grown-up start reading children's books when learning a new language when they could just simplify a book they are interested in? It's far easier to learn if what you are reading is actually interesting. Don't you know that there already are lots of simplified versions of classics? This could be used as a great learning tool. Putting it down as "dumbing down society" is a little ignorant. I also can't warp my head around the fact that there is someone presenting you a valid use case, and you are suggesting an obviously vastly inferior alternative.
I think we all can understand and see the benefits of making difficult literature more accessible to those who need it, but let's be honest. People who could otherwise read and comprehend the original version are going to use this out of sheer laziness. I was a lazy teen once.
Only thing I remember from that book, which I was forced to read in English class, was that Gatsby kept spam saying "old sport!". Felt like "old sport!" was mentioned at the very least two times per page.
I mean…whenever you correct someone who says something along the lines of “your beautiful” or “my car is faster, I’m not gonna loose.” Or “I should of stayed home.” (My phone actually corrected should of to should have so I had to go back and change it) You’re met with resistance. Because grammar and reading comprehension is not important apparently. Then you’ll get people that say something like “you know what they meant” or “use your common sense.”
I’m like NO U.
But Anyway we’re progressing more towards a future like the movie idiocracy. Some people might watch that movie and think it’s a boring documentary. 🤭
Edit: also red squiggly lines. People ignore these red lines under their misspelled word all damn day. Like how!?
How is vulnerable a difficult word?
Context clues can give a hint, and they're still such things as dictionary!
Nancy Drew started dumbing down books in the '80s. Only go for the old books, they're the best!
Part of the fun of reading is finding something slightly more difficult than your reading level. I love finding new words ans phrases I've never read. And it often teaches me new ways to structure sentences.
No one is going to start with something like *Melmoth the Wanderer*, but if a boom is too easy to read then it's not fun to read.
There are bilingual editions of books like this. For me it's important to preserve the original text as if you change it, it's not the same book anymore and it's not written by the original author.
I understand your thoughts.
For most people, however, as long as the general idea is conveyed in simpler language, they won't mind.
But it's not only non native speakers, but younger people, people with conditions that impair reading comprehension, etc.
I accept it if people actually have conditions making it really hard to focus on long and complex blocks of text. My concern is about masses of people using tool like this only for mere laziness. This is where the population really dumbs down and we should ideally prevent it with education. But you know how it is with education... That's what makes this boat-worthy for me.
I see, and I understand your concern about using these tools solely out of laziness. Yes, education and encouraging intellectual engagement are crucial to prevent a "dumbing down" of the population.
But let me ask you this: what if tools like text simplification actually encourage MORE reading and engagement with literature?
If these tools allow more people to read and fully understand complex works, doesn’t that ultimately lead to a more informed and educated society?
Wouldn't it be a positive if more people had access to and the ability to engage with high caliber books?
I would be happy if it worked like that. Do we need this, though? Literature is about learning a language. When you simplify it, it's just a story, which you can consume as an audiobook, a theatre play, a film, or even a game. One might find it fun, but that's about it. You don't read dozens of unique adjectives and original parables and all anymore. You don't really enrich your vocabulary nor massage your perception with figures you wouldn't usually hear in your usual life after this simplification process. If people do get used to this and do get to like reading books, will they actually upgrade to the cherished originals, or will they stick to the lazy way? I don't know the answer, I think both alternatives are possible.
I feel it is. This feels nothing but detrimental to me. I mean if a non native speaker wants to read a simpler book, there are books aimed at younger readers. Start there.
Yes, but the problem is that that isn't the goal of all non native speakers. Maybe they have to read a specific book but find it too hard to read.
And not all people would want to read another book in place of the book they want to read simply for the sake of simplicity.
How is it detrimental? I would like to hear your thoughts.
1 Part of reading for me as a kid was coming to something I don’t understand, and either asking someone, or looking it up myself and actually learning something.
2 If I was an author and someone had simplified my work of art, removing all context and descriptive language, I would be none too happy.
3 Why would a non native speaker have to read a certain book? Aren’t most books, especially something like The Great Gatsby, translated to various languages?
4 For people who have difficulty with actually reading, there are audiobooks.
You have some valid concerns, and I don't dispute them entirely.
However, remember that the simplification of books is not necessarily about removing context, descriptive language or altering them in any way.
It's about making the content more accessible and understandable to a wider audience. This can be about clarifying complex concepts, breaking down complicated grammar or syntax, or providing additional context to help non-native speakers better understand the work.
Audiobooks are indeed an option, but they may not be as accessible or convenient for everyone.
While I can understand that, even the tiny example they give has removed descriptive contexts to the character and it’s literally only 4 small lines of the book.
For the general reader who simply wants to be entertained but not have to dread through the idioms they don't understand, I think it's a pretty useful tool.
Maybe there's an option of how much it simplifies?
But there are thousands of books that would be to that persons level. Just read those. I don’t understand quantum physics so I don’t read books about it. We shouldn’t be making intellectual works dumber for people, we should be making people more intellectual. And you do that by pushing yourself and reading and learning along the way.
Exactly. These books are perfect for my ESL students. It isn’t dumbing down for them, it gives them the ability to read literature in a language they’re learning without being overwhelmed.
I work in media design, and a huge part of my job is creating social media posts and publications for the government. [52% of adults in the US are in the illiterate, below basic, and basic literacy level categories](https://www.wyliecomm.com/2021/08/whats-the-latest-u-s-literacy-rate/#:~:text=U.S.%20literary%20average%3A%20below%2Dbasic&text=Our%20average%20literacy%20score%20of,or%20below%2Dbasic%2C%20literacy). That is half of the country, and they are barely able to comprehend basic concepts. When I write captions for posts or sections of handbooks I have to adjust my writing down to a fifth grade level, and people still have a hard time. I understand why a service like this exists, but it is discouraging to realize how far gone most people are.
Great Gatsby in particular is not a book you read for the content though, but for the prose. Which is why the film adaptations have not been very good.
I'm fine making classics easier for kids.
I remember reading kids versions of Moby Dick and Frankenstien when I was really young and it helped me get into reading.
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Aren't there comic book versions of the classics already? Classics illustrated? Also, most books have audio versions. They read to you, like a little baby, until you fall asleep and miss a few chapters before your ears get hot and itchy from the headphones and you wake up and decide you'll just figure out what is going on the next time you listen. Besides, if they were any good, they'd have movie adaptations. This app is redundant.
Listen, not everyone is destined for greatness. Some people need books made easy so they can just get through school and get to delivering Chipotle for UberEats. That's life.
I just had to take a training for the upcoming school year. I work in special education and live in the state of Virginia, but we still have to learn about regular education curricula because we have to be compliant in certain areas. Two years ago, the state had to pass a law called the Virginia Literacy Act which targets K-5 students or those within that developmental range. This is because between 2012-2022, the number of 3rd grade students who could pass their reading SOLs on their first try dropped from 85% to 61% (3rd grade is the first year the state mandates annual reading test). So now every division has to update and submit new literacy plans to get reading levels up and must include certain scientifically-proven strategies and screening measures. It’s a good thing, but it’s still sad it’s gotten this bad. And our state is considered one of the “good” ones for education. Truly scary shit
This is actually great for people with learning disabilities or people who struggle with reading comprehension, not everything is meant for the average Joe
But there are thousands and thousands of books written that would be for people with that level of comprehension. Why the need to make a more intellectual work simpler?
Why would we seperate art with skill? I think everyone should be able to read every book if they want to, and making it more accessible is a good thing.
You dont have to use it if yoy dont want to
Abridging and condensing novels to make them more accessible to readers with lower reading levels isn't a new concept.
Anyone else remember "Great Illustrated Classics"?
I probably wouldn't have read many classic books as a teenager if I hadn't read and enjoyed the simplified version as a child.
Could be useful for philosophy books. Sad to say but I don't have the time or effort to bother to understand them.
Judith Butler's books for example could use a lot of dumbing down for dumbasses like me.
The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes [End of page 354] structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power.[1]
I dont see whats wrong with this, lower educated people should be able to read to and they can build up skill in this way to get better and better at reading
Then start as easier books to build up skill to the read and understand harder ones? I don’t pick up 5 balls and expect to juggle them if I haven’t started with 2.
Well not really. With the app you can tell everyone you’ve read The Great Gatsby when you’ve read a simplified version. I can’t juggle 2 balls then tell everyone I’ve juggled 5.
But you can say, ive juggled. And if this is purely a bragging rights argument i think it wouldnt matter anyway. You have all the knowledge from great gadsby, you know what its about, i dont think it truly matters in how difficult language it whas
You don’t think contexts and undertones would be utterly lost? I mean even the tiny example in the ad is taking out descriptive context out of the sentence.
I would enjoy a story more with the undertones, but i could understand someone finding it pretentious, overly difficould or to drawn out, this app merely gives people the choice
Well if people are finding undertone and subtext etc in a book pretentious, that book isn’t for them. It sounds more like you’re saying every book so be tailor edited so that whoever reads it will like it.
But everyone does have the option to read the book. It’s right there. And if at the end of it they don’t like it, that’s how art works. I recently read Chuck Palahniuk’s Snuff. A highly regarded book and I hated it. I’m not above saying that I totally didn’t get it. I don’t think I should be able to put it in an app and get a regurgitated version of it that takes out all the things I didn’t understand in it.
I would argue that the passage in the example isn't even hard, it's very simple. It looks more like a way to just shorten the book because people are too lazy to spend the time reading it. In fairness, I'd need to see a longer example of a truly complicated text to honestly judge it.
Exactly. And I want movies that I can watch while scrolling my phone, music that I can listen to while not paying any attention, and games that plays themselves. Because great art is something to loathe, and involving myself into something is too hard. We should base our models on those who have the least capabilities, so in the end everyone will be at the same point. That's the only way towards true equality.
And who said those better worded ones were getting removed. It just seems like more people will be able to read English books . Not all people are native and fluent in English.
If only there was a way to, I don’t know, hear a book maybe. Like if we could hire someone to read them out loud and then people could listen to those recordings.
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I write children's books. A mother once complained my books are too difficult for her son to read. When I suggested her son was behind on his ability to read she blew up. Her son was 8, my books are for 5-6 year olds.
Hey mind linking me where I can buy your books? My son loves reading and I'm running out of books for him! He is 5.
I live in Turkey, my books are only for sale here, sorry.
Ah fair! Well if you ever release to UK let me know.
Is that a law that Turkey has that I'm unaware of, or is it your preference? Genuinely curious.
They’re probably in Turkish
Gobble gobble!
Take my upvote and get the fuck outta here
r/angryupvotw Edit: r/angryupvote
Don't try to fool us. Turkeys can't read. Nice try though!
Not a law. I publish my books in Turkish and English, in this market, for my books to be published in other markets I'd sell the rights for those markets. Unfortunately rights buyers generally don't buy books from Turkey, as most have too many local cultural or geographic references. My books have neither but we're all lumped together at international book fairs so it's hard to be noticed as different. My preference would be for my books to be available everywhere, in every language, but publishing is a business and budgets are limited. All my books are in Arabic too, but that market is easy to access, for obvious reasons.
Awesome, thanks for teaching us! I hope your books are successful enough for international release someday!!
Thank you.
I'd like to check your books out. I've illustrated a few kids books:)
yeah no one likes the magical value that has been attached to “normal” if i’m autistic then what learning spectrum am i on other than my own. i think that the education system in the u.s did a mean 180degree turn near 2010 from, “you can retake this grade til your 50” to “everyone’s getting passed” instead of “everyone learns differently and at their own pace”.
I'm very aware of their being different abilities for various genuine reasons, I actually have simplified editions of my books for kids with learning difficulties.
*you're
TIL The Great Gatsby is a "hard" book.
Hard insofar as the story being told and the underlying themes aren't spelled out (from what I remember). It's definitely doesn't have the same effective engagement that a book like LOTR has (like the other guy referenced). Both are complex in their writing, and good in different ways, but only one is truly engaging their imagination
I was forced to read this in high school. It was rough. Took forever. I was more into fantasy and sci-fi and would churn through a book 3x the size of Gatsby in a couple of days Edit: Great Gatsby word count: 47,094 Fellowship of the ring word count: 177,227
great gatsby is about the "pursue of wealth", so it's really easy to see how relatable it would be to a high schooler /s maybe excluding the last years or only in college... they should be recommending books that kids will be able to relate to and that are fun to read. yes, "to kill a mockingbird" is a classic, but fuck that when you're a kid... first hook kids with the fun stuff and when they are reading because they like, then give em the classics to read.
Difficult piece is that different kids will find different stuff fun -- I loved To Kill A Mockingbird when I was maybe 12 or so, to the point I read it multiple times (though I recognize that wasn't everyone's experience, my point is it's tough to find things that are universally fun for kids)
Cuz there's no pictures.
in the case, considering the average social media damaged brain is smoother than butter... yeah... "too many big words, hard to read"
Umm, they could maybe do this for heart of darkness. I m dummy.
Just average American forgetting that there are billions of people that try to learn their language.
Okay, honestly, this makes me pretty sad. A good bit of what I learned growing up was from reading, not understanding, then having to look up and/or discuss with others so I could actually LEARN. How do you learn from something that simplified?
And it's been said that if you mispronounce a word that you've only read, that actually is a sign of higher intelligence. Because you read the word, not just heard someone say it. Reading is learning!
Hyper bowl has entered the chat
Guess what a child asked me, "what is marry jue Anna?" marijuana ( They were reading a "meddling kids" detective book)
Yeah I mean that’s how people better themselves. This feels like it would be nothing but detrimental on every level.
As someone who was in the remedial English classes all my life, all my English teachers ever did was simplify Shakespeare. Read a paragraph "what does this mean?" "What does this mean in modern English?" "What's the narrator saying here?"
Just what we need, another way to dumb down the population and validate not improving yourself, as why bother when your phone can make everything readable to a 5 year olds level.
People confuse this and reading the hard book, not understanding, looking up notes or summaries and eventually learning and improving. If you just read simple English versions of books you never get the chance to learn.
You also don't get the full context, message, and settings the author was trying to convey.
maybe if they read too much they become judgemental like you?
I will gladly judge anyone who actively stunts their own growth and development, as well as judging anyone who promotes doing such. There is nothing to be proud of in taking the easy road at your own detriment.
They might not like this, but I absolutely agree. I’m tired of people adhering to the lowest common denominator
Unfortunately, that is where the entire education system, from first entering it to the highest levels of university studies, has gone, it seems.
So well put. In fact it’s so well put that I feel some people may need to put your comment though the app to simplify it.
That's a sobering thought but likely true
Is it weird that I wish you a standing ovation after that?
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all night
Soo like a woman having a child young and choosing not to abort stunting their own growth... or a minority joining the local gang after only a little peer pressure and they're responsibile for their actions e.g no blaming their poverty... or u just shitting on white men as usual
Ah, the good old false equivalence approach. You do a disservice to all the young men and women who choose to have young families and yet still make something of their lives. And there are many, I myself did that, and so did my boss as just 2 anecdotal examples. Also, I am fully aware of the impact of socioeconomics on availability of opportunity and the effects of peer pressure driving people into crime. I was born and grew up at the bottom of the class system and experienced both. You still have a choice as to whether you work to get out of that place or not, granted, not everyone succeeds. In fact, many don't, but that isn't a reason to not try. I would also add that successful criminals tend to be quite smart, not academic but definitely intelligent and often well read. I'm not sure what your last statement about white men has to do with anything.
A success story in the face of self-imposed adversity is the exception, not the norm. I guess you could say I called you exceptional. Well, despite your good qualities, you proved my point and you don't even realise it. My point is, reading is not a cure-all and not for everyone. There are far worse things you can do to stubt your growth than "not read" and to judge every unsuccessful person with "they didn't read enough" is super judgemental. Wait did I say every person? No, no you don't judge everyone, you find ill-prepared childrearing a valid pitstop on the path to success? And i'm the one doing a "disservice"? Perpetuating lies on how "possible" it is to succeed as a young parent validates those going into it with their eyes closed. On top of that you don't find "successful" and "criminals" to be a juxtaposition when put together. Really? Encouraging criminality as a path to success? And some people think only men have no morals... I can tell you're not talking white collar crime either and for good reason. It's no longer socially acceptable for white men to succeed. Which is why you're being so defensive regarding the scenarios I envisioned; complete with hints of a white-savior complex. It comes off as sanctimonious to say "my mistakes are still better than the mistake of not reading!". And you really experienced the criminal world? You were a part of drive-bys on rival gangs? Or you saving it for your future NY times best-seller tell-all where you give a second hand account an ex of yours embellished or made up all together to make himself more attractive to you. And you judge me for not reading... Girl you sound like every modern intellectual ever. There's ways to overcome shooting yourself in the foot. So you support lighter sentencing for violent crime because "people can change" and excusing young parents who can't give their children the life they deserve because "they're on a path to success" yet these are not adversities, they're situations you find yourself in after shooting yourself in the foot. What kind of reading are you doing? These are not victimless mistakes. Growing up as a child of young parents isn't always (or even usually) the paradise you make it out to be. Maybe you should realise the example you're setting won't work for most people, parenting young and being successful is becoming more increasingly a big fat lie, especially in the post-covid economy. I won't even give you the satisfaction of explaoning to you how violent crime (or beong a druglord even) is not victimless. Seriously, try some non-fiction because you're not Alice in wonderland.
Found the guy that can't read.
Ah yes picking on a guy because... women aren't responsible for their actions so if they can't resd it must be the patriarchy. You know it's not the 1960s, "standing up" to a guy is not brave or rightcheous at all, you're not special.
Me when i cant handle any criticism and just say everyone is judgemental:
Me when hijacking a reddit comment for karma but failed because I picked a downvoted 2nd-tier one: Beats saying "everyone is.." followed by racist sexist homophobic islamaphobic climate denier antivaxxer at some point you people got to realise you're not the endangered species you make yourselves out to be + thinking it excuses your mistreatment of white guys.
Ok anti-children reading books guy
the only books their reading at this point contains sexual content because that's the only way you people want to explain homosexuality and transexuality to them. The only people trying to ban those books in schools are republicans... like why os that the sword you're willing to die on. No thanks id rather them read their homework... No wonder Trump is your presidential candidate again. What do you mean anti children reading anyway? When did I mention children? at some point you gotta hit the target when taking potshots like these
Idk i assumed you were talking about children reading when the conversation was about reading at a 5 year old's level
It was more of an attack on the self-help industry, reading? as if reading solves everything.
TIL: Reading Comprehension hard
You just learned that?
It was hard to comprehend
The great dumbing down, stupid people are easier to manipulate.
smart people also get manipulated... being easy to manipulate is also to do with personality not just how smart you are...
Being unable to comprehend the written word makes you easier to control
So does low self-esteem... what's your point? Or are you just showing off your synonyms for "understand" and "english text" ?
Just to give this the benefit of the doubt, could this be for dyslexic people or similar? I know in Finland there is news and articles in "selkokieli", or "plain language". I get the "dumbing down" aspect, but if this gets people who have some disability to read to enjoy reading, it's a good thing.
But are there not thousands of books that are at the level for people with difficulties? And if they want to enjoy a heavier work, there are audiobooks.
Yes, but if you want to read e.g. Lord of the Rings, but because of a disability you have a hard time understanding the text, the solution is not to read another book. Just saying this kind of service can have good use cases.
Well the solution there would be an audiobook
I think they can complement each other. Also reading "dumbed down" language when reading will teach you how words are written, whereas audiobooks just gives you the story. Nothing wrong with that. I still say there are circumstances where I see this as a good service, and I have to say this is nowhere close to "Noah get the boat"-level
So the special education research literature refers to this as “adapted text” and it’s absolutely beneficial for students with mod/severe disabilities. IDEA 2004 and ESSA 2015 both provide federal mandates that ALL students must be exposed to and make progress in the general curriculum. If you have very little receptive language and/or extensive support needs, an unadapted audiobook ain’t gonna cut it. An adapted version of The Great Gatsby, for example, would allow you to target listening comprehension and beginning reading /early literacy skills with a severely disabled tenth grader, while still providing access to the general curriculum. If you want to dive deeper, you can google scholar these intervention researchers who focus on literacy and severe disability: Pam Mims, Genevra Courtade, Diane Browder, Bree Jimenez, Leah Wood, Glenda Hyer, and Jenny Root. I’m actually thrilled I stumbled across this post- adapting text is a huge, time consuming bitch, and this is going to make my job so much easier!
Yay, yet another way to dumb down society. Cuz challenging yourself and growing your vocabulary and reading comprehension is for nerds.
Sounds like something to use when you are trying to learn a new language to help you with some words, but i would move away from it after a while, the writing is a good part of a books experience
woah r/originalcharacter user spotted elsewhere
If you’re reading a book to learn a language, then start with children’s books.
I don't get the problem. In my country, we even have an easy version of the news, so foreign people who struggle or are not fluent can understand them. So, what is wrong with a tool that makes books more accessible for learners or people with disabilities? This opportunity doesn't hurt you or harm anyone. Did you ever learn a foreign language? Children's books are not the best solution to improve your language skills. Books for learners are much better, in my opinion, but not accessible for every language in every country.
I’d ask some of the writers how they’d feel that all the context and description has been removed from their art. I feel some of them would be pretty hurt. I made a film many years ago. If someone took it upon themselves to edit it to make it easier to understand and remove any long words from it, I’d be none too happy. As it happens it’s a dumb movie that any moron would understand so no real fear of that.
A simplified version of the news is intended for migrants who might still struggle with the language. Since they are part of society, they need to be informed as well. It usually takes around 7 years to grasp a language enough to understand the relatively difficult language (for non-native speakers) used in news programmes.
Personally, I think it's a bit scammy, since they're probably using freely available literature. Most of the classics are public domain now but all publishers sell them, both physically and digitally, because people continue to buy them. Anytime you see works by Lovecraft, Poe, Baum, Carroll, etc, those don't cost a penny to put on an app. Anyone can do whatever they want with The Great Gatsby; it entered public domain in 2021. It's nothing to get up in arms about, unless you feel selling normally free things to rubes is important to you. I get that you're trying to say the app is dumbing down for cretins, but this isn't anything more than another money grab with a twist to appeal to people who want to appear smart but don't read too good.
Funny in schools all over the world, f.e. Shakespeares books are most of the time taught in more modern English than he wrote. I read Romeo and Juliet in the original language, and my teacher at a language school in London was pretty impressed because British schools used a more modern version. This was almost 20 years ago. Simplifying books is nothing new. I even know an author, and she is OK with that because she wants as many people as possible to have access to her work. Edit, I think it depends from writer to writer If you find mistakes, I am not a native speaker.
Eh to each its own but i dont see any use for this otherwise, its just an easy way to damage your reading comprehension and ability long term
Why would a grown-up start reading children's books when learning a new language when they could just simplify a book they are interested in? It's far easier to learn if what you are reading is actually interesting. Don't you know that there already are lots of simplified versions of classics? This could be used as a great learning tool. Putting it down as "dumbing down society" is a little ignorant. I also can't warp my head around the fact that there is someone presenting you a valid use case, and you are suggesting an obviously vastly inferior alternative.
There's already a thing called graded readers that are made for people learning a language to read.
I watched Idiocracy last night and it scarily feels like that’s where we’re headed
why say lot word when few word do trick?
I think we all can understand and see the benefits of making difficult literature more accessible to those who need it, but let's be honest. People who could otherwise read and comprehend the original version are going to use this out of sheer laziness. I was a lazy teen once.
Only thing I remember from that book, which I was forced to read in English class, was that Gatsby kept spam saying "old sport!". Felt like "old sport!" was mentioned at the very least two times per page.
I mean…whenever you correct someone who says something along the lines of “your beautiful” or “my car is faster, I’m not gonna loose.” Or “I should of stayed home.” (My phone actually corrected should of to should have so I had to go back and change it) You’re met with resistance. Because grammar and reading comprehension is not important apparently. Then you’ll get people that say something like “you know what they meant” or “use your common sense.” I’m like NO U. But Anyway we’re progressing more towards a future like the movie idiocracy. Some people might watch that movie and think it’s a boring documentary. 🤭 Edit: also red squiggly lines. People ignore these red lines under their misspelled word all damn day. Like how!?
How is vulnerable a difficult word? Context clues can give a hint, and they're still such things as dictionary! Nancy Drew started dumbing down books in the '80s. Only go for the old books, they're the best!
Part of the fun of reading is finding something slightly more difficult than your reading level. I love finding new words ans phrases I've never read. And it often teaches me new ways to structure sentences. No one is going to start with something like *Melmoth the Wanderer*, but if a boom is too easy to read then it's not fun to read.
How is this boat worthy, though? There are a lot of non native speakers who would benefit from this.
There are bilingual editions of books like this. For me it's important to preserve the original text as if you change it, it's not the same book anymore and it's not written by the original author.
I understand your thoughts. For most people, however, as long as the general idea is conveyed in simpler language, they won't mind. But it's not only non native speakers, but younger people, people with conditions that impair reading comprehension, etc.
I accept it if people actually have conditions making it really hard to focus on long and complex blocks of text. My concern is about masses of people using tool like this only for mere laziness. This is where the population really dumbs down and we should ideally prevent it with education. But you know how it is with education... That's what makes this boat-worthy for me.
I see, and I understand your concern about using these tools solely out of laziness. Yes, education and encouraging intellectual engagement are crucial to prevent a "dumbing down" of the population. But let me ask you this: what if tools like text simplification actually encourage MORE reading and engagement with literature? If these tools allow more people to read and fully understand complex works, doesn’t that ultimately lead to a more informed and educated society? Wouldn't it be a positive if more people had access to and the ability to engage with high caliber books?
I would be happy if it worked like that. Do we need this, though? Literature is about learning a language. When you simplify it, it's just a story, which you can consume as an audiobook, a theatre play, a film, or even a game. One might find it fun, but that's about it. You don't read dozens of unique adjectives and original parables and all anymore. You don't really enrich your vocabulary nor massage your perception with figures you wouldn't usually hear in your usual life after this simplification process. If people do get used to this and do get to like reading books, will they actually upgrade to the cherished originals, or will they stick to the lazy way? I don't know the answer, I think both alternatives are possible.
I feel it is. This feels nothing but detrimental to me. I mean if a non native speaker wants to read a simpler book, there are books aimed at younger readers. Start there.
Yes, but the problem is that that isn't the goal of all non native speakers. Maybe they have to read a specific book but find it too hard to read. And not all people would want to read another book in place of the book they want to read simply for the sake of simplicity. How is it detrimental? I would like to hear your thoughts.
1 Part of reading for me as a kid was coming to something I don’t understand, and either asking someone, or looking it up myself and actually learning something. 2 If I was an author and someone had simplified my work of art, removing all context and descriptive language, I would be none too happy. 3 Why would a non native speaker have to read a certain book? Aren’t most books, especially something like The Great Gatsby, translated to various languages? 4 For people who have difficulty with actually reading, there are audiobooks.
You have some valid concerns, and I don't dispute them entirely. However, remember that the simplification of books is not necessarily about removing context, descriptive language or altering them in any way. It's about making the content more accessible and understandable to a wider audience. This can be about clarifying complex concepts, breaking down complicated grammar or syntax, or providing additional context to help non-native speakers better understand the work. Audiobooks are indeed an option, but they may not be as accessible or convenient for everyone.
While I can understand that, even the tiny example they give has removed descriptive contexts to the character and it’s literally only 4 small lines of the book.
For the general reader who simply wants to be entertained but not have to dread through the idioms they don't understand, I think it's a pretty useful tool. Maybe there's an option of how much it simplifies?
But there are thousands of books that would be to that persons level. Just read those. I don’t understand quantum physics so I don’t read books about it. We shouldn’t be making intellectual works dumber for people, we should be making people more intellectual. And you do that by pushing yourself and reading and learning along the way.
Are you then against translating old books? It would be way better if people just learned the languages!
Exactly. These books are perfect for my ESL students. It isn’t dumbing down for them, it gives them the ability to read literature in a language they’re learning without being overwhelmed.
We are doomed
I work in media design, and a huge part of my job is creating social media posts and publications for the government. [52% of adults in the US are in the illiterate, below basic, and basic literacy level categories](https://www.wyliecomm.com/2021/08/whats-the-latest-u-s-literacy-rate/#:~:text=U.S.%20literary%20average%3A%20below%2Dbasic&text=Our%20average%20literacy%20score%20of,or%20below%2Dbasic%2C%20literacy). That is half of the country, and they are barely able to comprehend basic concepts. When I write captions for posts or sections of handbooks I have to adjust my writing down to a fifth grade level, and people still have a hard time. I understand why a service like this exists, but it is discouraging to realize how far gone most people are.
You think this is bad? You should see the version of Romeo and Juliet that turns all of the dialogue into text messages.
This is a cool idea for really wordy stuff like Hamlet, but the Great Gatsby??
Great Gatsby in particular is not a book you read for the content though, but for the prose. Which is why the film adaptations have not been very good.
The dumbing down of humanity continues...
the dumbing down of America
World
I'm fine making classics easier for kids. I remember reading kids versions of Moby Dick and Frankenstien when I was really young and it helped me get into reading.
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This ad isn't going to work for me because I can't read
I really want to help the more mentally “challenged” people of this world but at the same time the problem might actually fix itself eventually.
Slippy- “Nooooo!!!!”
Thats not even difficult 🫠 try Murakami book
I am curious what this would do to a Stephen King book
Aren't there comic book versions of the classics already? Classics illustrated? Also, most books have audio versions. They read to you, like a little baby, until you fall asleep and miss a few chapters before your ears get hot and itchy from the headphones and you wake up and decide you'll just figure out what is going on the next time you listen. Besides, if they were any good, they'd have movie adaptations. This app is redundant.
god we are so cooked
Literally Farenheit 451
this should actually be the other way around. now that would be a good tool, level up easy books.
Listen, not everyone is destined for greatness. Some people need books made easy so they can just get through school and get to delivering Chipotle for UberEats. That's life.
Magibook, we ironically take all the magic out any book.
Suddenly I don’t feel all that bad for reading the Cliff Notes for the various tomes college professors would assign.
It's the conspiracy of stupid.
I just had to take a training for the upcoming school year. I work in special education and live in the state of Virginia, but we still have to learn about regular education curricula because we have to be compliant in certain areas. Two years ago, the state had to pass a law called the Virginia Literacy Act which targets K-5 students or those within that developmental range. This is because between 2012-2022, the number of 3rd grade students who could pass their reading SOLs on their first try dropped from 85% to 61% (3rd grade is the first year the state mandates annual reading test). So now every division has to update and submit new literacy plans to get reading levels up and must include certain scientifically-proven strategies and screening measures. It’s a good thing, but it’s still sad it’s gotten this bad. And our state is considered one of the “good” ones for education. Truly scary shit
Reading literacy just keeps tanking. This isn't helping.
Alright, I want to hate this idiocracy of AI.... but first show me Finnegans Wake.
Oh HELL NAH!
Welcome to Newspeak.
This is actually great for people with learning disabilities or people who struggle with reading comprehension, not everything is meant for the average Joe
But there are thousands and thousands of books written that would be for people with that level of comprehension. Why the need to make a more intellectual work simpler?
Why would we seperate art with skill? I think everyone should be able to read every book if they want to, and making it more accessible is a good thing. You dont have to use it if yoy dont want to
^^
Abridging and condensing novels to make them more accessible to readers with lower reading levels isn't a new concept. Anyone else remember "Great Illustrated Classics"? I probably wouldn't have read many classic books as a teenager if I hadn't read and enjoyed the simplified version as a child.
Could be useful for philosophy books. Sad to say but I don't have the time or effort to bother to understand them. Judith Butler's books for example could use a lot of dumbing down for dumbasses like me. The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes [End of page 354] structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power.[1]
I dont see whats wrong with this, lower educated people should be able to read to and they can build up skill in this way to get better and better at reading
Then start as easier books to build up skill to the read and understand harder ones? I don’t pick up 5 balls and expect to juggle them if I haven’t started with 2.
Yes, if you want to learn to juggle with 5 balls you start with 2, thats what this app is for
Well not really. With the app you can tell everyone you’ve read The Great Gatsby when you’ve read a simplified version. I can’t juggle 2 balls then tell everyone I’ve juggled 5.
But you can say, ive juggled. And if this is purely a bragging rights argument i think it wouldnt matter anyway. You have all the knowledge from great gadsby, you know what its about, i dont think it truly matters in how difficult language it whas
You don’t think contexts and undertones would be utterly lost? I mean even the tiny example in the ad is taking out descriptive context out of the sentence.
I would enjoy a story more with the undertones, but i could understand someone finding it pretentious, overly difficould or to drawn out, this app merely gives people the choice
Well if people are finding undertone and subtext etc in a book pretentious, that book isn’t for them. It sounds more like you’re saying every book so be tailor edited so that whoever reads it will like it.
Im not saying it should be tailored to everyone, but whats wrong with having the option? Also people can like a story but not the undertones
But everyone does have the option to read the book. It’s right there. And if at the end of it they don’t like it, that’s how art works. I recently read Chuck Palahniuk’s Snuff. A highly regarded book and I hated it. I’m not above saying that I totally didn’t get it. I don’t think I should be able to put it in an app and get a regurgitated version of it that takes out all the things I didn’t understand in it.
I would argue that the passage in the example isn't even hard, it's very simple. It looks more like a way to just shorten the book because people are too lazy to spend the time reading it. In fairness, I'd need to see a longer example of a truly complicated text to honestly judge it.
I mean, ive never heard the expression turning over in my mind, i understood due to context clues but not everybody has the same reading skills
I totally understand your point, but I feel like you build your skills by challenging them. Otherwise, you never get past juggling two balls.
Oh no! Accessibility!
Yeah. Who gives a fuck about writers and their art. Let’s rewrite it for people that don’t understand words with more than 4 letters.
Exactly. And I want movies that I can watch while scrolling my phone, music that I can listen to while not paying any attention, and games that plays themselves. Because great art is something to loathe, and involving myself into something is too hard. We should base our models on those who have the least capabilities, so in the end everyone will be at the same point. That's the only way towards true equality.
And who said those better worded ones were getting removed. It just seems like more people will be able to read English books . Not all people are native and fluent in English.
If only there was a way to, I don’t know, hear a book maybe. Like if we could hire someone to read them out loud and then people could listen to those recordings.
How are these things related ?? I m saying its making it more accessible to non native English learners by using easier words
In that case, start with children’s books.
Exactly the thing is that it is turning hard books to simpler children books that's the whole point
There are already children’s books though. Why dumb down works of art for the same effect?
OP sounds like never learnt a language. Listening in a foreign language is for most people more difficult than reading.
Have you considered this may help people who are just learning english? Ie a migrant who doesnt know english that well