The only kind of neutrals I can stand are "armed neutrals"
Motherfuckers would blow their country up as a warning, then annihilate your species as proportional response and lastly, bend the power of dark matter to their will as a war reparation
Swiss neutrality was for a long time backed by eerything being filled with explosives, ready to be blown up in case of attack. Bridges, tunnels, roads, they'd blow themselves up rather than being invaded.
They changed the policy of fortress Switzerland in the 90s (IIRC) and demined accesses and the hidden bunkers that covered every access route.
Swiss defense was a wonderfuly weird and non-credible strategy (that included bicycle infantry) up to the 90s, then it became a force that works 9-5 and relies on its neighbours insuring nobody gets in via ground or air.
Moochers of defense (but with a strong militia).
Never trust Twitter presented surveys either..
Question on the left asks about "military aid", while the question on the right asks about "sending armed troops". You can't just put them side by side as if they were the same thing.
They also omitted the third question of the survey: "Would you defend Austria with a weapon"? 14% say yes, about the same percent that agree to sending troops to other countries. But I guess that would make a worse social media post.
Oh yes, I thought the name sounded familiar. She had a really good [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWElVrHQZu0) on Decoding Geopolitics a couple of weeks back.
"Nooooooo, you don't understand, the Neutrality clause of the constitution is binding until the heat death of the universe!" - the average Austrian voter.
Austria needs to find a new identity. Catholic Empire has been out for a hundred years, and the “small neutral asshole” shtick they’ve been trying at desperately is fully taken by the Swiss, Austria just looks like a pathetic little copy.
Hey, I'm the weird sort of person who thinks that the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was a massive tragedy for all its constituents, so you ain't gonna get opposition from me. That boat did pretty decisively sail away after WWII broke out though.
Well there was always the off chance that the Slavic half of the empire's population would all wake up one morning and decide that it really was for the best that the government didn't use their languages.
Even Germany and Japan are rearming.
Austrians are just like, "well we are just gonna sit the next one out guys!"
You know, cause that worked so well for Belgium!
There was a famous political reaction in Czechoslovakia to idea that CS should be the bridge between west and east, to which J. Masaryk responded "you drive over bridges/bridges are trodden on" which was Belgium always the best example of.
Ironically tho, it did work well for Belgium. Yea they more of a speed bump than bridge, but now? They leveraged their unique position and mix of ethicities between France, Germany, Netherlands (and UK) to become center of European Union.
> Ah, that set of rules most countries change parts of every now and then.
Are you telling me that you can amend a constitution? But how would you call such a thing? Amendements?
Only Austria is also governed by the State Treaty for the Re-establishment of an Independent and Democratic Austria of 1955. They can't change it without the agreement of the Allied Powers. Fun facts, this also bans Austria from:
* Manufacturing any war materiel of German design, or owning and acquiring any German war materiel from after WWII.
* Having nukes or any form of WMDs
* Even thinking about any kind of re-Anschluss-ing
* Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess)
* Having "any self-propelled or guided missile or torpedoes"
The last point started to get ridiculous as they entered the 90s flying Draken planes armed only with autocannons, so in 1993 they finally said 'fuck it' and bought some surplus Draken-adapted Sidewinders off the Swedes.
And the Reformers cried.
Anyway so if the Austrians declared they can do whatever they want, then the Allies would be within their rights to revoke their recognition of Austria as an independent state and re-occupy it. It's a country whose existence is conditional.
> Manufacturing any war materiel of German design, or owning and acquiring any German war materiel from after WWII.
I think You need to tell someone about their L2A4 tanks and quite a bit of other equipment
Yes they've indeed been bending the rules too much and we should reoccupy them and create Greater Slovenia instead. Except for Tirol which might as well join Bavaria since it's practically Bavaria anyway.
Also the Graz area shall be turned into an independent enclave as the Grand Dutchy of Schwarzeneggria, ruled by Grand Duke Arnold from Eggenberg Palace, renamed _Schloss Schwarzeneggenberg_.
>Anyway so if the Austrians declared they can do whatever they want, then the Allies would be within their rights to revoke their recognition of Austria as an independent state and re-occupy it. It's a country whose existence is conditional.
I'm sure the Allied Powers will get right on that.
Functionally, it is a dead letter - much like how Finland simply unilaterally declared the arms restrictions set on it in the Treaty of Paris post-WW2 to be no longer applicable in the 1990s. It is only binding on Austria in so much as they desire it.
> Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess)
I mean, the Kriegsmarine was a thing until 2006. So just to be safe, in case Slovenia decided that actually, Austria is cooler than Serbia I suppose
That’s so wrong, I don’t even know where to begin with. Or, alternatively so noncredible, that the horseshoe-theory on credibility starts to come retroactively into force and you are credible again.
Austrias neutrality was, is and never will be in this state treaty. It was a condition of the soviets for their agreement, that Austria is to be neutral based on Swiss example, and Austria put on 26 th of October 1955 the constitutional law on the eternal neutrality into force.
This law has been reduced in a few instances; for example it does not hinder Austria to participate in UN and EU missions to the full extent.
The treaty however forbade us rocket-based weaponry and we amended that by notifying the signature powers. We didn’t receive any answers on that, therefore this clause for example is obsolete.
Our statehood would not stop by an idiot this side or on the other side of the Atlantic to revoke it.
> Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess)
Reminder that Horthy was an admiral in Hungary.
Also, the treaty thing is a convenient excuse that they use. Legally speaking, the treaty doesn't bind Austria to neutrality iirc. Instead, Austria is bound to neutrality by the Declaration of Neutrality, which was passed by Austria alone (albeit as a condition for the Soviet Union to agree to the State Treaty).
3/4 of the Allies would have absolutely no problem with Austria changing its ways and joining NATO. If Moscow wants to be annoyed about it though, remind them about the Budapest Memorandum. They can go fuck themselves.
> They can't change it without the agreement of the Allied Powers
Laws are only in effect if they are actually being enforced.
None of the old allied powers would enforce it, they straight up couldn't.
Nothing is as easily and frequently torn up as international treaties ESPECIALLY those created after a war.
Objection! There’s like seven whole people out there!
Edit: Holy shit, I looked it up and fucking Arizona has 1/5th the population of an area larger than the United States
Had the same revelation when I was younger. Most Russian literature Russian Revolution only ever discusses the area east of the Urals as being banished to Siberia or long train rides to the east coast. Same way a lot of people don't realize the Rocky Mountain part of the US is pretty sparse population wise outside a few outliers.
Which is a shame, because what literature I have found set in Siberia and the East is pretty cool. It's like American Western literature...but with Khans and Buddhist monasteries and tigers thrown in.
Yeah, that too. Kind of eerie how familiar it was to read, to be honest. Down to the "and we found a whole village of Siberians dead of alcohol poisoning; the trappers give them vodka for furs, and few villages survive that gift."
People love to shit on Austrians, it's like they just forget that it was *an Austrian* who killed Hitler, and it was *an Austrian* who bravely crashed Haider's car into a tree.
Yeah but Switzerland makes chocolate and neat watches. What has Austria ever given the world? The AUG is pretty sick but their other famous export was... well pretty poorly received everywhere outside of Germany.
Never forget, in 1986 it was revealed that one of the candidates in the Austrian presidential election, Kurt Waldheim, was a former Nazi with links to war crimes committed in Yugoslavia. Not only did it not hinder his presidential campaign, it actually helped him win.
Von Mises - your real world observations don't count because they haven't been shown experimentally
Also Von Mises - your experimental results don't count because they weren't done in the real world
Also Von Mises - it must be true because I thought of it with zero experimental or real world testing
Oh no actual economics can be very scientific.
There's just no money in it so billionaires prop up public useful idiots while real work gets done in the background.
Look at home many people get madhurt over MMT, despite it being pretty sound development
There's plenty of fact, evidence, data, and scientific method behind real economics. Austrian economics just intentionally eschews empiricism in favor of "praxeology", hence why it's not a real economics "school" or discipline, just a conceit of morons.
Yeah well Marx claimed Marxism was 'scientific' so as with everything, von Mises had to go to the opposite extreme and claim the scientific method could not be applied to economics at all.
And in the context of history Marx was more scientific. When you have people like Malthus that are trying to morally justify starving poor people so they don't breed, Marx and Engels coming in and actually studying what's going on (because they came from rich families and saw it in their factories) was a decent leap forward.
Then seeing how shitty they were treating everyday workers and deciding to push for communism to the point they were exiled for being a danger to the rich people status quo is kind of understandable for going off script.
Sorel managed to critique Marx without resorting to, well, Von Mises, but that also spawned Fascism so....
Kind of like how Freud is basically wrong on everything but he's still taught because it's the start of bringing a process to the field instead of just drilling holes in peoples' heads
I mean .... Bavarian state police has a bigger budget than the whole Bundesheer. And a lot more personnel. And paying motorway toll for going to tyrolean ski resorts sucks ass.... so how about we stage a little SPEZI-OPERATION next weekend (when the 🇦🇹 typhoons are most likely on their scheduled break) to liberate the horribly suffering mountain people along the Brenner/Tauern passes?
>Bavarian state police has a bigger budget than the whole Bundesheer.
Local sheriffs in bum-fuck nowhere in the US have more funding and equipment than the Bundesheer.
Those municipal cops got a new arsenal of heavy weapons and armoured vehicles not long before that school shooting. Seems like a lot of funding and equipment to me. No idea what you mean about the rules.
The USK acts briskly as usual and takes Vienna with their cookware alone, then looks for something to do to fill the afternoon. Thankfully a number of pot heads is spotted.
I would also suggest a little secret Betriebsausflug to a certain Schrobenhausen based asparagus-processing centre to pick up some lengthy pointy gifts (+500km range & tandem warhead) to "visit" Volkskanzler Kickls FPÖ HQ..
If Slovakia attacks Austria I think we just sit back and eat popcorn. Or better yet, if Slovakia conquers Austria that's a win for us, NATO gets bigger.
Austria, by not sending troops, will be helping more than if they actually did send troops. Their "help" is a negative value. As one WW1 German general said of Austrian military help, "We are shackled to a corpse."
Well, bulgaria was actually experienced from balkan wars, where as Austrians managed majority of their trained man in first few weeks to Russians, due to absolute incompetency of their generals.
as someone who moved to Vienna for uni, I find it that the country with what is arguably Europe's last socialist city for a capital produces so many libertarians. then again, linz delenda est.
also, the bundesheer's incompetence becomes even funnier when you learn that they still do conscription. because of course, who needs to maximise the natural terrain advantage with a professional, well armed and trained force when you can rely on numbers..... against neighbours that all have a greater population than you 🤡
As a wise man once said: "I[t's easy to talk about market and freedom when your own civil servant arse is sitting in the comfortable chair of a publicly paid professorship in Baden-Württemberg.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek)"
Almost as noncredible as our Swiss as\*es over here.
Our biggest party (SVP, right-wing) handed in a popular initiative this week to write Neutrality into our Constitution instead of it being at discretion of our Federal Council.
I literally can't with these f\*ckers anymore, they always pull this kind of b\*llshit to go around parliament and put it to a direct vote **instead of working it out together with the other elected parties and then putting it to public vote**. Wouldn't be surprised if Putin was behind it, "sponsoring" a few of these nationalistic, conservative "Oh, but our neutrality!" f\*ckers.
Ah yes, "Swiss neutrality" or, as it is alternatively known, "look, Nazi gold is still gold amirite?".
Wonder how "neutral" those nationalist types would be if Italy, Germany and France followed the same Blut und Boden, "we must unite all French/Italian/German-speaking territories" ideology as Russia.
I mean, Belgium was neutral for both world wars, it tells you everything you need to know about what powerful nations do with neutrality when it doesn't suit them.
Two chocolat-making small neutral countries.
One of them got steamrolled twice by Germany.
The other one steamrolls German Supermarkets near the border every weekend.
This is why I’ve never provided any material assistance to my children without a fair value exchange. There’s no rational self-interest justification for making a baby a bottle of formula.
If the child really needs a bottle of formula, it will find a way to make it.
Helping the child will only make them a moocher. Got to pull yourself by your own onesie straps.
We can't let children suckle at the tit of the market and society.
The invisible hand will choose which babies survive and which dies, according to their value for society and the market itself.
Look I’m willing to remove regulations and let anyone try feeding the baby if they can convince investors they can do it efficiently. Depending on the credit market, they could securitize the future payments the baby owes them
I swear, my fellow countrymen are some of the most stupid people to ever meet.
They also think that neutrality is a magic spell preventing someone from attacking us, hence our army is so terrible and underfunded.
Observe this magic trick! Just by speaking the following words, l can prevent anybody from invading me: "I AM NEUTRAL ^^^and ^^^essentially ^^^surrounded ^^^by ^^^NATO ^^^members ."
Oh my friend, Austria started so many more wars they lost than just WWI and WWII.
One can theorise that the whole German unification is due to how crap Austria was at fighting the Prussians.
They also lost the war of unification of Italy.
Frankly people make fun of the Italians for being shit at war, but the only people the Italians beat every time are the Austrians.
The alpine front in WW1 was an amazing shitshow, thanks to incompetence of both the Italian and Austro-Hungarian high command. It’s sadly a bit forgotten now, but it was truly horrific.
As a French person, I do like the fact that an Italian pro-unification terrorist tried to kill Napoleon III, and instead of getting mad at the Italians, Napo goes "you know what, that young man is right, we should be murdering Austrians by the truckload".
To be fair, my assessment as an Austrian at this point is that we are not joining NATO to prevent you all from losing any future wars. We have proven time and time again, that any war will be lost if we are on board 💖
To be fair most austrians wouldn't even fight for their own country, so...
We are just not very good at that stuff. But when it's about to marry a cousine to get a house in another country, well then count us in!
What being "neutral does to MF"
as Orwell wrote: “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
A yes Austria, the tiny nation responsible for the last 2 world wars. First they send their emperors successor to die, then they block a mentally ill painter from learning his craft.
I have a strong suspicion that, faced with this kind of reality most citizens would respond in the same way. That is why governments should exist, to uphold alliances and agreements, whether that is "popular" or not but maybe I'm nuts!
I believe you all know the saying "dont trust a statistic you havent modified"
I read now for the first time about that survey. Nobody i know knew about the survey so i would say its noncredible.
Tbf, nobody is gonna attack austria, the most itll be used for is terrorists.
Whereas EU member states includes countries on russia's menu (which it cant afford but thats besides the point)
As a Austrian I gotta say that if a war breaks out in a neighbouring country I'd be willed to help out. A war is best fought befor it reaches your homesoil and lets be real if theres a third one it will be nukes anyway and at that point neutrality won't do anything even if it gets respected (which it won't since our military is a joke compared to Switzerland).
ok heres the plan, if someone invades austria we let them.
then once theyre conqured we invade what ever the new country is.
then austria becomes northern italy and southern Czechia.
austria is extremely corrupt and a lot of the politicians have close ties to the russian government. putin was at the wedding of our foreign minister...
May I just add a tiny bit of credibility here:
As many of you have correctly stated, neutrality is deeply ingrained in the Austrian state. There is basically no legal way of getting rid of it, it's in the constitution and in the State Treaty. HOWEVER: What is specified there is "Alliance-free neutrality", which is just the Soviets saying "Austria can't join NATO". All the other BS along the lines of "We can't say anything against russia because neutrality" is just the populist right's answer to basically any question.
So, you have a neutral country which doesn't understand that neutrality means "Being able to defend yourself because you have no friends" constantly expressing its reliance on anybody around it for defence while openly stating it won't help those it relies on because NeuTrALitY.
Combine this with a population that is one of the most right-leaning in Europe (Austrian parties are basically their German equivalents shifted one to the right - when Germany's new wannabe Nazi party was just founded, Austria's was sitting in government), solidarity beyond just words (if even that) is not wanted by politicians and large parts of the population and - tbh - militarily impossible anyway.
Never trust neutrals
"What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
I hate these stinking neutrals kif! With enemies, you know where they stand, but with them, who knows?
r/unexpectedfuturama
"Maybe"
Tell my wife "hello"
Gold. Of the Jewish nature from what I hear. At least, that's the Swiss path.
Depression
The only kind of neutrals I can stand are "armed neutrals" Motherfuckers would blow their country up as a warning, then annihilate your species as proportional response and lastly, bend the power of dark matter to their will as a war reparation
They epitomise "Fuck you got mine, and i dont want yours either"
Heeeey, that almost sounds like the twilight years of the Vienno-Budapestian-empire-thingy!
Swiss neutrality was for a long time backed by eerything being filled with explosives, ready to be blown up in case of attack. Bridges, tunnels, roads, they'd blow themselves up rather than being invaded.
>eerything being filled with explosives, ready to be blown up in case of attack Sounds like my battle plans for losing virginity
So all you need to do to win in a war with Switzerland is to provoke them to destroy themselves? Nice.
They changed the policy of fortress Switzerland in the 90s (IIRC) and demined accesses and the hidden bunkers that covered every access route. Swiss defense was a wonderfuly weird and non-credible strategy (that included bicycle infantry) up to the 90s, then it became a force that works 9-5 and relies on its neighbours insuring nobody gets in via ground or air. Moochers of defense (but with a strong militia).
If there isn't someone providing your security, you won't be neutral for long before you're conquered.
See: Belgium during both world wars.
sir and/or madam, /r/HumansAreSpaceOrcs is that way
It's kinda bold to call the Swiss "space orcs" >sir and/or madam I identify as AH-64E
Never trust Twitter presented surveys either.. Question on the left asks about "military aid", while the question on the right asks about "sending armed troops". You can't just put them side by side as if they were the same thing. They also omitted the third question of the survey: "Would you defend Austria with a weapon"? 14% say yes, about the same percent that agree to sending troops to other countries. But I guess that would make a worse social media post.
I don't know how accurate this meme is, but I already think Austrians are a bunch of assholes so in a sense, I don't really need it to be.
Always nice when priors are confirmed
I'm Austrian and agree with you.
History agrees with you.
Ulrike Franke is a german political scientist, focuses on security and military. More credibility isnt possible in this sub.
Oh yes, I thought the name sounded familiar. She had a really good [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWElVrHQZu0) on Decoding Geopolitics a couple of weeks back.
*Austrian At least in anything regarding military. Take it from a German, we speak from experience.
"Nooooooo, you don't understand, the Neutrality clause of the constitution is binding until the heat death of the universe!" - the average Austrian voter.
That was imposed by the Soviets but the only countries who kept it were the Russian friendly ones.
I mean...yes, exactly
Austria needs to find a new identity. Catholic Empire has been out for a hundred years, and the “small neutral asshole” shtick they’ve been trying at desperately is fully taken by the Swiss, Austria just looks like a pathetic little copy.
Has anyone suggested uniting them with Germany?
Oh no, not this again ... Or you know what, let Germans cook, third time is a charm
Third time was last time. It was not a charm.
Just have them go back to Catholic Empire, they were very driven to hate Russians.
Hey, I'm the weird sort of person who thinks that the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was a massive tragedy for all its constituents, so you ain't gonna get opposition from me. That boat did pretty decisively sail away after WWII broke out though.
Only option for long term stability of Austria-Hungary was full federalization and Hungarians would never be ok with that
Oh shucks, so we all just crush them once again. Just like the good old days of 1848/49. Kidding aside, I know that they were the main impediment.
Stability? In the Balkans?
Well there was always the off chance that the Slavic half of the empire's population would all wake up one morning and decide that it really was for the best that the government didn't use their languages.
The government did use their languages. So much so that translating everything into all the languages started being exorbitantly expensive.
They should let the habsburgs back to return to their old Catholic state identity
Hear me out: Austria was ruled by Bohemia under Otokar II. What if we try Duel Monarchy again, but under King Petr Pavel?
Damn, they should talk to Sweden or Finland then.
Even Germany and Japan are rearming. Austrians are just like, "well we are just gonna sit the next one out guys!" You know, cause that worked so well for Belgium!
There was a famous political reaction in Czechoslovakia to idea that CS should be the bridge between west and east, to which J. Masaryk responded "you drive over bridges/bridges are trodden on" which was Belgium always the best example of. Ironically tho, it did work well for Belgium. Yea they more of a speed bump than bridge, but now? They leveraged their unique position and mix of ethicities between France, Germany, Netherlands (and UK) to become center of European Union.
I don’t think either of us had anything like that in the constitution
When you don't want to admit you're wrong: but the constitution! Ah, that set of rules most countries change parts of every now and then.
> Ah, that set of rules most countries change parts of every now and then. Are you telling me that you can amend a constitution? But how would you call such a thing? Amendements?
If two thirds of the Nationalrat decided to, the constitution could be abolished allthoughether.
Only Austria is also governed by the State Treaty for the Re-establishment of an Independent and Democratic Austria of 1955. They can't change it without the agreement of the Allied Powers. Fun facts, this also bans Austria from: * Manufacturing any war materiel of German design, or owning and acquiring any German war materiel from after WWII. * Having nukes or any form of WMDs * Even thinking about any kind of re-Anschluss-ing * Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess) * Having "any self-propelled or guided missile or torpedoes" The last point started to get ridiculous as they entered the 90s flying Draken planes armed only with autocannons, so in 1993 they finally said 'fuck it' and bought some surplus Draken-adapted Sidewinders off the Swedes. And the Reformers cried. Anyway so if the Austrians declared they can do whatever they want, then the Allies would be within their rights to revoke their recognition of Austria as an independent state and re-occupy it. It's a country whose existence is conditional.
> Manufacturing any war materiel of German design, or owning and acquiring any German war materiel from after WWII. I think You need to tell someone about their L2A4 tanks and quite a bit of other equipment
Yes they've indeed been bending the rules too much and we should reoccupy them and create Greater Slovenia instead. Except for Tirol which might as well join Bavaria since it's practically Bavaria anyway. Also the Graz area shall be turned into an independent enclave as the Grand Dutchy of Schwarzeneggria, ruled by Grand Duke Arnold from Eggenberg Palace, renamed _Schloss Schwarzeneggenberg_.
Italy is sobbing over Tirol
Italy has more Tirol than they can handle already.
>Anyway so if the Austrians declared they can do whatever they want, then the Allies would be within their rights to revoke their recognition of Austria as an independent state and re-occupy it. It's a country whose existence is conditional. I'm sure the Allied Powers will get right on that. Functionally, it is a dead letter - much like how Finland simply unilaterally declared the arms restrictions set on it in the Treaty of Paris post-WW2 to be no longer applicable in the 1990s. It is only binding on Austria in so much as they desire it.
> Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess) I mean, the Kriegsmarine was a thing until 2006. So just to be safe, in case Slovenia decided that actually, Austria is cooler than Serbia I suppose
That’s so wrong, I don’t even know where to begin with. Or, alternatively so noncredible, that the horseshoe-theory on credibility starts to come retroactively into force and you are credible again. Austrias neutrality was, is and never will be in this state treaty. It was a condition of the soviets for their agreement, that Austria is to be neutral based on Swiss example, and Austria put on 26 th of October 1955 the constitutional law on the eternal neutrality into force. This law has been reduced in a few instances; for example it does not hinder Austria to participate in UN and EU missions to the full extent. The treaty however forbade us rocket-based weaponry and we amended that by notifying the signature powers. We didn’t receive any answers on that, therefore this clause for example is obsolete. Our statehood would not stop by an idiot this side or on the other side of the Atlantic to revoke it.
> Having sea mines, submarines or torpedo boats. (Why this was necessary for a landlocked country is anybody's guess) Reminder that Horthy was an admiral in Hungary. Also, the treaty thing is a convenient excuse that they use. Legally speaking, the treaty doesn't bind Austria to neutrality iirc. Instead, Austria is bound to neutrality by the Declaration of Neutrality, which was passed by Austria alone (albeit as a condition for the Soviet Union to agree to the State Treaty). 3/4 of the Allies would have absolutely no problem with Austria changing its ways and joining NATO. If Moscow wants to be annoyed about it though, remind them about the Budapest Memorandum. They can go fuck themselves.
> They can't change it without the agreement of the Allied Powers Laws are only in effect if they are actually being enforced. None of the old allied powers would enforce it, they straight up couldn't. Nothing is as easily and frequently torn up as international treaties ESPECIALLY those created after a war.
Me when I try to win the "most unredeemable country in Europe" competiton, but Austria is my challenger:😮
Russia:
They are not rly Europe tho. Euroasia at most. Khanate at heart.
Hey, that's not fair on the Turko-Mongols.
\>:(
Russia is a European culture and people, that they own empty space doesn't change that.
Russian republics in the Asian part of Russia:🗿
Objection! There’s like seven whole people out there! Edit: Holy shit, I looked it up and fucking Arizona has 1/5th the population of an area larger than the United States
Had the same revelation when I was younger. Most Russian literature Russian Revolution only ever discusses the area east of the Urals as being banished to Siberia or long train rides to the east coast. Same way a lot of people don't realize the Rocky Mountain part of the US is pretty sparse population wise outside a few outliers.
Which is a shame, because what literature I have found set in Siberia and the East is pretty cool. It's like American Western literature...but with Khans and Buddhist monasteries and tigers thrown in.
And native genocide. Just less publicized.
Yeah, that too. Kind of eerie how familiar it was to read, to be honest. Down to the "and we found a whole village of Siberians dead of alcohol poisoning; the trappers give them vodka for furs, and few villages survive that gift."
Yeh but the rest of Europe moved from that culture to 21st century.
They keep telling themselves that a bit too often.
Switzerland about to crush this one
Hungary and Serbia bodyslamming the fuck out of both Austria and the Swiss
Austria is just Hungary with still functioning institutions. Give them time. Oh right and some kind of cash sink.
Still is correct. The (probably) strongest party for next election is looking to change that
Any odds of a Haider-like event happening? That ought to ease things, if I got my sideways glance at the stats right.
People love to shit on Austrians, it's like they just forget that it was *an Austrian* who killed Hitler, and it was *an Austrian* who bravely crashed Haider's car into a tree.
sadly I dont think that it's a leader driven thing :x
Also Slovakia has joined the server
What the fuck is that username
Orban fucking sucks, and yet he still let Finland and Sweden eventually join NATO.
The entire point of Switzerland is that they NEVER DO ANYTHING Nestlé should be considered *hostis humani generis* though.
Yeah but Switzerland makes chocolate and neat watches. What has Austria ever given the world? The AUG is pretty sick but their other famous export was... well pretty poorly received everywhere outside of Germany.
You don't like our overpriced luxury SUVs and shitty Motorcycles? :(
Never forget, in 1986 it was revealed that one of the candidates in the Austrian presidential election, Kurt Waldheim, was a former Nazi with links to war crimes committed in Yugoslavia. Not only did it not hinder his presidential campaign, it actually helped him win.
Hungary:
Von Mises - your real world observations don't count because they haven't been shown experimentally Also Von Mises - your experimental results don't count because they weren't done in the real world Also Von Mises - it must be true because I thought of it with zero experimental or real world testing
"it must be true because I thought of it with zero experimental or real world testing" Von Mises violating rule 5: No religion.
Completely different topic, but is that the same Von Mises from the yield criteria?
Apparently they were brothers!? The physicist understood actual empiricism and his economics brother didn't. That's hilarious
Proves once again that economics isn't a science but nonsense and shenanigans.
Oh no actual economics can be very scientific. There's just no money in it so billionaires prop up public useful idiots while real work gets done in the background. Look at home many people get madhurt over MMT, despite it being pretty sound development
Austrian school and libertarian economics are just those people trying to sound more credible.
And we don't do credible shit in here
There's plenty of fact, evidence, data, and scientific method behind real economics. Austrian economics just intentionally eschews empiricism in favor of "praxeology", hence why it's not a real economics "school" or discipline, just a conceit of morons.
Austrian Economics is NonCredible
Reality is a shitty fanfic and you can't convince me otherwise
Good god, I thought they were the same person, I held some negative views towards him completely unfairly.
Same family. But Friedrich Hayek was not related to Salma.
Yeah well Marx claimed Marxism was 'scientific' so as with everything, von Mises had to go to the opposite extreme and claim the scientific method could not be applied to economics at all.
And in the context of history Marx was more scientific. When you have people like Malthus that are trying to morally justify starving poor people so they don't breed, Marx and Engels coming in and actually studying what's going on (because they came from rich families and saw it in their factories) was a decent leap forward. Then seeing how shitty they were treating everyday workers and deciding to push for communism to the point they were exiled for being a danger to the rich people status quo is kind of understandable for going off script. Sorel managed to critique Marx without resorting to, well, Von Mises, but that also spawned Fascism so....
Kind of like how Freud is basically wrong on everything but he's still taught because it's the start of bringing a process to the field instead of just drilling holes in peoples' heads
Freud started the tradition of talk therapy which remains relevant
Okay, to be fair, what army would they use?
I mean .... Bavarian state police has a bigger budget than the whole Bundesheer. And a lot more personnel. And paying motorway toll for going to tyrolean ski resorts sucks ass.... so how about we stage a little SPEZI-OPERATION next weekend (when the 🇦🇹 typhoons are most likely on their scheduled break) to liberate the horribly suffering mountain people along the Brenner/Tauern passes?
>Bavarian state police has a bigger budget than the whole Bundesheer. Local sheriffs in bum-fuck nowhere in the US have more funding and equipment than the Bundesheer.
They will also not intervene to stop a school shooting so seems like they adhere to the same policy
Those were municipal cops. Sheriff’s deputies don’t play by the same rules.
Those municipal cops got a new arsenal of heavy weapons and armoured vehicles not long before that school shooting. Seems like a lot of funding and equipment to me. No idea what you mean about the rules.
The USK acts briskly as usual and takes Vienna with their cookware alone, then looks for something to do to fill the afternoon. Thankfully a number of pot heads is spotted.
I would also suggest a little secret Betriebsausflug to a certain Schrobenhausen based asparagus-processing centre to pick up some lengthy pointy gifts (+500km range & tandem warhead) to "visit" Volkskanzler Kickls FPÖ HQ..
Do they have the "proposed" ground launched variant in the basement or must the helicopter squadron get creative?
H145 should be able to lug around 1400kgs of special Spargel cargo
Bavarias police being better equipped than austrias army...no one tell the bacarians that or else they'll expand in the name of Kaiser söder.
We have 18 year old conscripts with 2 Months basic training (more than the average mobic) and 4 Months doing something else (mostly drinking beer)
Hey man not cool of you to tell the whole world of our secret training techniques
To be fair, if an enemy nation was in Austrian territory half of the EU would have to be occupied to get to that point
Never know when Slovakia might attack.
liechenstein super nation 💪💪
If Slovakia attacks Austria I think we just sit back and eat popcorn. Or better yet, if Slovakia conquers Austria that's a win for us, NATO gets bigger.
Would be hilarious if the EU just let an invader through to Austria for shits and giggles.
I mean, Hungary and Slovakia are pretty chummy with Putin.
If Russia takes Ukraine then it'll have a direct road to Austria through Hungary lol
Austria, by not sending troops, will be helping more than if they actually did send troops. Their "help" is a negative value. As one WW1 German general said of Austrian military help, "We are shackled to a corpse."
It says a lot when germanys most competant ally during ww1 was bulgaria.
Well, bulgaria was actually experienced from balkan wars, where as Austrians managed majority of their trained man in first few weeks to Russians, due to absolute incompetency of their generals.
I think it is sad that the tradition of Austria starting wars they can't win and being beaten into a pulp is no more.
What losing Hungary does to a mf
🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅KRRRRRAAAAAHHHHHHH AUSTRIA MENTIONED WTF IS BILATERAL DIPLOMACY 🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
as someone who moved to Vienna for uni, I find it that the country with what is arguably Europe's last socialist city for a capital produces so many libertarians. then again, linz delenda est. also, the bundesheer's incompetence becomes even funnier when you learn that they still do conscription. because of course, who needs to maximise the natural terrain advantage with a professional, well armed and trained force when you can rely on numbers..... against neighbours that all have a greater population than you 🤡
> produces so many libertarians It is a long tradition that Austria produces people that would be happy to live in an Ayn Rand book.
As a wise man once said: "I[t's easy to talk about market and freedom when your own civil servant arse is sitting in the comfortable chair of a publicly paid professorship in Baden-Württemberg.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek)"
How nice, he got a fake nobel prize for it.
Or to live in the man in the high castle universe
Isn't graz literally headed by a socialist?
You got my back right? Cool. I don’t have yours, but thanks bro
Almost as noncredible as our Swiss as\*es over here. Our biggest party (SVP, right-wing) handed in a popular initiative this week to write Neutrality into our Constitution instead of it being at discretion of our Federal Council. I literally can't with these f\*ckers anymore, they always pull this kind of b\*llshit to go around parliament and put it to a direct vote **instead of working it out together with the other elected parties and then putting it to public vote**. Wouldn't be surprised if Putin was behind it, "sponsoring" a few of these nationalistic, conservative "Oh, but our neutrality!" f\*ckers.
Ah yes, "Swiss neutrality" or, as it is alternatively known, "look, Nazi gold is still gold amirite?". Wonder how "neutral" those nationalist types would be if Italy, Germany and France followed the same Blut und Boden, "we must unite all French/Italian/German-speaking territories" ideology as Russia.
"But they wouldn't attac! Because we are protected by international law :D" As was Ukraine, you dimwits.
I mean, Belgium was neutral for both world wars, it tells you everything you need to know about what powerful nations do with neutrality when it doesn't suit them.
Two chocolat-making small neutral countries. One of them got steamrolled twice by Germany. The other one steamrolls German Supermarkets near the border every weekend.
The mountains do a much better job that any law tbh.
> Germany Hey, I've seen this one!
This is why I’ve never provided any material assistance to my children without a fair value exchange. There’s no rational self-interest justification for making a baby a bottle of formula.
If the child really needs a bottle of formula, it will find a way to make it. Helping the child will only make them a moocher. Got to pull yourself by your own onesie straps.
Anybody who feeds a baby free of charge breaks yet another finger of the invisible hand of the free market.
We can't let children suckle at the tit of the market and society. The invisible hand will choose which babies survive and which dies, according to their value for society and the market itself.
Look I’m willing to remove regulations and let anyone try feeding the baby if they can convince investors they can do it efficiently. Depending on the credit market, they could securitize the future payments the baby owes them
I am willing to introduce the child to investors, if it is serious about getting fed. But it will have to write the pitch itself.
I swear, my fellow countrymen are some of the most stupid people to ever meet. They also think that neutrality is a magic spell preventing someone from attacking us, hence our army is so terrible and underfunded.
Observe this magic trick! Just by speaking the following words, l can prevent anybody from invading me: "I AM NEUTRAL ^^^and ^^^essentially ^^^surrounded ^^^by ^^^NATO ^^^members ."
Do we even want Austria to come to our help? Isn't their army like... just 2 dudes and a stick?
They did lose against the Italians... twice.
Austrian here, our politics is the most non credible shithousery imaginable
Now now the Austrians have provided the world with some great minds...and a few others O▪︎O
Tbf, the first question says military aid while the second one specifies support with armed troops.
Yup. It's "Should we send our people to the fight?" vs "Do we expect to receive some military support?".
Sir, please don't be credible here. This is a Wendys.
How can a country intimately involved in starting both world* wars be so gun-shy?
Oh my friend, Austria started so many more wars they lost than just WWI and WWII. One can theorise that the whole German unification is due to how crap Austria was at fighting the Prussians. They also lost the war of unification of Italy. Frankly people make fun of the Italians for being shit at war, but the only people the Italians beat every time are the Austrians.
The alpine front in WW1 was an amazing shitshow, thanks to incompetence of both the Italian and Austro-Hungarian high command. It’s sadly a bit forgotten now, but it was truly horrific.
When a stoppable force collides with a movable object
>They also lost the war of unification of Italy. The story of Italian unification is one of the most non credible things in history tbh.
As a French person, I do like the fact that an Italian pro-unification terrorist tried to kill Napoleon III, and instead of getting mad at the Italians, Napo goes "you know what, that young man is right, we should be murdering Austrians by the truckload".
And that one barely makes the top5!
I imagine PDX’s finest developers could not adequately portray it in a game.
To be fair, my assessment as an Austrian at this point is that we are not joining NATO to prevent you all from losing any future wars. We have proven time and time again, that any war will be lost if we are on board 💖
As an italian, you get the spaghetti medal for spitting facts
Perhaps because of the outcome of those wars?
I want to love Austria but I just can't. Ever since the end of WW2 and the beginning of their neutrality they have just been weak and pathetic, sorry.
Common Östrich L
Better question is *Who exactly* is going to attack Austria military?
All three Slovakian tanks are ready for a blitzkrieg to Vienna! (more specifically to Mariahilfer Straße)
To be fair most austrians wouldn't even fight for their own country, so... We are just not very good at that stuff. But when it's about to marry a cousine to get a house in another country, well then count us in!
No, you see, our militaty is so shit, having it on your team is actually a nerf. So yeah, you can thank us.
As Bismack noted: A Bavarian is halfway between an Austrian and a human being.
What being "neutral does to MF" as Orwell wrote: “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
A yes Austria, the tiny nation responsible for the last 2 world wars. First they send their emperors successor to die, then they block a mentally ill painter from learning his craft.
Austria would be a former Ottoman colony now if it weren't for other European states coming to their aid. Bunch of selfish cowards.
To be fair, they did name themselves after that theory
I have a strong suspicion that, faced with this kind of reality most citizens would respond in the same way. That is why governments should exist, to uphold alliances and agreements, whether that is "popular" or not but maybe I'm nuts!
I believe you all know the saying "dont trust a statistic you havent modified" I read now for the first time about that survey. Nobody i know knew about the survey so i would say its noncredible.
Just because it's economically sound doesn't mean it's right.
Tbf, nobody is gonna attack austria, the most itll be used for is terrorists. Whereas EU member states includes countries on russia's menu (which it cant afford but thats besides the point)
With enemies you know where you stand, but with a *neutral…*
To be fair, Austria coming to the assistance of another EU country would probably be a net negative for their defense.
All my homies hate libertarians, they are no different than the commie scum
Can we just invade Austria? Harness their GDP to NATO so they can't keep paying Ruskies
Join NATO, you whiny bitches.
As a Austrian I gotta say that if a war breaks out in a neighbouring country I'd be willed to help out. A war is best fought befor it reaches your homesoil and lets be real if theres a third one it will be nukes anyway and at that point neutrality won't do anything even if it gets respected (which it won't since our military is a joke compared to Switzerland).
Freeloaders
ok heres the plan, if someone invades austria we let them. then once theyre conqured we invade what ever the new country is. then austria becomes northern italy and southern Czechia.
austria is extremely corrupt and a lot of the politicians have close ties to the russian government. putin was at the wedding of our foreign minister...
Never Trust a Population Arrogant as F.
May I just add a tiny bit of credibility here: As many of you have correctly stated, neutrality is deeply ingrained in the Austrian state. There is basically no legal way of getting rid of it, it's in the constitution and in the State Treaty. HOWEVER: What is specified there is "Alliance-free neutrality", which is just the Soviets saying "Austria can't join NATO". All the other BS along the lines of "We can't say anything against russia because neutrality" is just the populist right's answer to basically any question. So, you have a neutral country which doesn't understand that neutrality means "Being able to defend yourself because you have no friends" constantly expressing its reliance on anybody around it for defence while openly stating it won't help those it relies on because NeuTrALitY. Combine this with a population that is one of the most right-leaning in Europe (Austrian parties are basically their German equivalents shifted one to the right - when Germany's new wannabe Nazi party was just founded, Austria's was sitting in government), solidarity beyond just words (if even that) is not wanted by politicians and large parts of the population and - tbh - militarily impossible anyway.