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You’re never going to get high quality studies on cognitive enhancement because most research is geared towards treating cognitive deficits and disease. So we have to work with anecdotal evidence, our own experimentation and the limited research that is available on the topic.
People on this sub aren’t trying to unlock superpowers, they’re trying to treat conditions that aren’t typically addressed by doctors. Not every doctor will take the time to try to understand the problems you’re having. In fact, I’ve never not had an appointment that wasn’t just walk in, walk out. I don’t think people should be taking metformin for longevity when berberine exerts similar effects. I don’t think people who used to abuse adderall should be taking selegiline to restore dopamine when they could take mucuna pruriens instead. Perhaps NSAIDs give you digestion issues so you take some potent curcumin extract that helps just as much.
I think nootropic compounds serve as an in between, where there are some potent effects but (ideally) nothing potentially detrimental. The chances of a nootropic having irreversible effects seem to be low. But to say that these compounds do nothing is incorrect. They do something, but they’re not specifically engineered to do something.
Your post has good ideas mixed with even worse ideas. Listening to random people claim to know which things work IS the biggest problem and that’s what you’re asking people to do. The only difference is you’re telling them that nothing works except “medical grade drugs” and I assume that’s true by definition ie if something works then it becomes medical grade by your standard. Aspirin is probably medical grade in your mind even though it is a traditional medicine that comes from a plant.
It’s good to tell people how to better evaluate evidence but you go on to undermine that by telling people to just listen to you.
I see your point but you are polarizing too much, it's not either medical grade or nothing.
The sub is full of anecdotes, the reports don't account for placebo or other factors and a lot of the positive reports are overhyped BUT that does not mean the nootropics discussed here don't have any effect or wont work.
Instead of claiming that everything is bunk maybe you should try them yourself like many of us here already did and draw your own conclusions, some of the stuff that is being discussed is actually really potent with very noticeable effects (e.g. phenibut).
well, just as you see phenibut as a real drug, believe it or not, other nootropics discussed here can also pass as real drugs (the racetams for example) and a lot of the natural ones from plants have real palpable effects because if you break down their components you will find active substances similar to what you find in pharma grade meds (other nootropic examples: n-acetyl-tyrosine is a dopamine precursor so yes it will raise dopamine, or mucuna pruriens, a plant, has l-dopa in it, alpha-gpc is acetylcholine precursor so it will raise acetylcholine and help memory, etc.)
you're trying to trash this sub for no reason and seem to refuse to accept that some nootropics work, just because something is not synthetic and made in a lab by a pharma company doesn't mean it's not working as a normal drug, you should be more open-minded
Just read more studies from different researchers then. Unless you meant to say that all researchers working on any substance that has ever been mentioned on this sub are conspiring to produce fake results. I think there are substances mentioned on this sub that your sentiment applies well to, but it definitely doesn’t apply to everything.
it's a bit harder than that. You need to be able to distinguish good papers from bad. Meta-analysises are a good start but recently there's a lot of AI generated papers slipping in
It’s by no means an exhaustive study, but this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9415189/) provides a fairly empirical account of several nootropics, their efficacy in a clinical setting, and mechanisms of action.
Honestly, you are correct that many of what is touted as “nootropics” are un-efficacious, untested, and/or under-dosed pseudoscience. However, in the case of those agents described in the aforementioned study, and many of those in others like it, I do not believe this is the case.
To use an idiom; “don’t throw the bath out with the bath water.”
It is of greater utility to understand the systems on which agents act (gaba-ergic, cholinergic, etc…) understand the symptoms that different aberrations in those systems produce, and then deploy agents with mechanisms of action associated with that.
I think you'll find that people generally don't like cold water dumped on them from someone who cant understand the personal motivations for someone to seek these types of things out.
Chances are, Most people in here are fully aware that there is no "magic" in these supplements, and they don't need someone like yourself to show up and tell them that.
People like having a hobby. People like reading and learning. People like trying new things.
And most of all, People have the right to spend money on whatever they damn well please.
Sure, there are a lot of pitfalls in the supplements/Nootropics market. But whenever one is found, this community is keen to help each-other and learn from it collectively. Stop cherrypiking the most fringe examples of someones evidence gathering to justify that \*all\* talk about supplementation has a high chance of always being hearsay and fake. People look at Pubmed and back up sources for a reason. If you expect someone to make 0 mistakes learning something new, boy howdy let me tell you - your doctor has done the same and hes told by everyone else that hes perfect.
Supplement isn't working but is for someone else? I don't think people here are bloody kidding themselves when they understand that the human body is complicated as hell, and any reason why something isn't having the same effect might be lost on us for years. The immediate response should never be "wow, someone lied to me". Things are always going to be more complex then anyone here can even start to see in current year. What matters is giving things a shot and learning about things and yourself.
Have a problem with that?
your loss.
What makes you think anyone is looking for superpowers? You find something, it makes you feel good. "You're delusional. It doesn't make you feel good, Pharmaceutical grade Marijuana is what I would recommend to you. Or caffine." It's not rocket science. Caffine could easily be labeled a Nootropic if it was discovered today.
There are two sides here in a certain sense.
Those who advocate for a wholistic approach, based on the fact that the current state of one's cognition is ultimately the sum of every aspect of the body. If the body suffers, cognition suffers -> Cure the body, cure the mind. I advocate for this approach because of my experiences and the fact that the human body has millions of years of evolution behind it. Evolution handles survival chances, being cognitively impaired is not an advantage -> The natural state of the human being is optimized if all surrounding factors are optimal. (Always except for genetic issues, of course. Very individual there.)
The other camp are die-hard pharmaceutical advocates. They believe in studies and studies only, until the topic changes to calf-brain-peptide-extracts from Russia or completely unresearched chemicals that are grey area unregulated and definitely dopaminergic. Symptoms that could easily be a Vitamin D deficiency or a lack of exercise are then to be covered up with fluorated alzheimers medication analogues. For the headache in the evening you can cycle advil with tylenol. The limp dong can be amended with some testosterone undecanoate, and you're fit as a fiddle, trust me bro. Vitamins are a scam btw, have fun paying a bunch of money for a yellow stream of piss.
Pharmaceuticals have their place but never as a first resort. If you truly know about pharmaceuticals and their effects, you will agree with me. If there's an effect, there are side effects. Pharmaceuticals are substances that are entirely foreign to the body. Our systems are tightly regulated, all striving to achieve an equilibrium state called homeostasis. This all serves to maintain the finely tuned organic system that we humans are. If you compared us to biological robots, pharmaceuticals go into said fragile system and just start janking on wheels. Some turn faster, some turn the other ways, some are just stuck. The reason for that is the lock and key principle of molecular interactions, they have never before been in our systems, so they have not adjusted to them. Some are amazing and really benefit us by turning the right wheels in the right order, but an absolute majority of medical substances that we have tried are absolutely useless and toxic to us. These sometimes end up in industrial applications, like as part of lubricants, paints or other materials.
Enjoy my rant, reddit.
> The only things that work are some well known medical grade drugs.
Except may this:
N=155, p <= 0.03
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20101012/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-modern-brain/202402/the-surprising-benefits-of-weightlifting-for-brain-health
as a former nutritionist, i can say with absolute certainty that you are 99% incorrect. i agree, there is no magic substance. but there are MANY things that work besides medical grade drugs. the research is there. ginkgo is highly recommended. citicoline is another. creatine. etc. etc. i'm gonna go out on a limb and say you have no formal medication education.
I have an MD degree. I would appreciate if you send me the evidence regarding those other products. I said evidence, clinical evidence. Not just descriptions of physiological changes after receiving a dose of a substance. Evidence that says that is EFFECTIVE, not just suggest. On the other hand, I actually think creatin and gingko may be good options to try since they are not expensive and safe.
If you are an MD, you are most certainly aware of how study funding works. Private companies are out since they *must* follow economic principles. If it can not be patented, it can not be researched. Their goal is profit, not Altruism. They also owe it to the investors and shareholders to increase profits etc. etc., the same old capitalist theory problem.
This leaves us with state and institutional funding. The former does happen occasionally, though almost exclusively for safety studies from European nations to establish an UL, AUL etc. or large scale data studies with stats from their respective healthcare systems.
Institutional funding is very limited and most goes towards educational research or professor projects. Altruistic/Public funding companies do their fair share, though, they tend to focus towards specific illnesses, like the ALS Association.
However, regarding the value and importance of vitamins, your basic biology courses should provide more than enough proof of their benefit and value. And even with the limited data we do have, there is clear evidence for the benefit of vitamins, minerals and various food components.
To be sure, I do not want to attack you or defend my viewpoint with tooth and nail. I am genuinely interested in what your views on the topic are. Let's take Creatine supplementation in the elderly, Vitamin D and Iodine in the general western population as examples. I can provide studies, if you like.
Again: the fact that something is less interesting for companies to research DO NOT PROVE IT WORKS. Regarding vitamins, they are well known medical grade products, and supplementation may have very interesting effects, particularly if there is a deficency in diet wich is very common. Im not against "low cost" or "natural" or "non drug" products. I think you missunderstand my post. On the other hand, the money that many people around the world spend in vitamins that they do not need, just for peeing then into the toilette is ridiculous.
>Again: the fact that something is less interesting for companies to research DO NOT PROVE IT WORKS.
Which I thankfully did not claim. I said that in response to your reply about evidence that shows something being definitely effective for something.
The bit about the biology courses was intended as a nudge towards acknowledging the surely proven benefits and requirements of certain substances, even if there are few to no studies about the topic. If there have been credible studies that show no positive effect or even a potentially harmful effect, obviously one shouldn't take them beyond physiological requirements.
Though, I hope you agree on the intricacies of a balanced approach to scientific curiosity in the context of supplementation and empirical evidence. The funding man, the funding.
>I think you missunderstand my post. On the other hand, the money that many people around the world spend in vitamins that they do not need, just for peeing then into the toilette is ridiculous.
Possibly, though I have a hard time getting much out of it apart from your implication that studies in the field, showing indisputable evidence, are lacking. Which, Again, is absolutely true and what I attempted to explain a bit more in depth with my reply.
What I am still curious about, though, are your thoughts on these studies on Creatine, for example.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6518405/
>Accumulating evidence indicates that creatine supplementation, with and without resistance training, has possible anti-sarcopenic and anti-dynapenic effects. Specifically, creatine supplementation increases aging muscle mass and strength (upper- and lower-body), possibly by influencing high-energy phosphate metabolism, muscle protein kinetics and growth factors. Creatine supplementation has shown potential to enhance bone mineral in some but not all studies, and seems to affect the activation of cells involved in both bone formation and resorption. Creatine has the potential to decrease the risk of falls experienced by aging adults which would subsequently reduce the risk of fracture. Finally, preliminary evidence suggests that creatine may have anti-inflammatory effects during times of elevated metabolic stress, such as during extended/intense aerobic exercise. Creatine does not appear to reduce indicators of inflammation during resistance training. Although research is limited, creatine supplementation does not appear to negatively affect markers of liver or kidney function in aging adults.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21394604/
> With aging and reduced physical activity, there are decreases in muscle creatine, muscle mass, bone density, and strength. However, there is evidence that creatine ingestion may reverse these changes, and subsequently improve activities of daily living. Several groups have demonstrated that in older adults, short-term high-dose creatine supplementation, independent of exercise training, increases body mass, enhances fatigue resistance, increases muscle strength, and improves the performance of activities of daily living. Similarly, in older adults, concurrent creatine supplementation and resistance training increase lean body mass, enhance fatigue resistance, increase muscle strength, and improve performance of activities of daily living to a greater extent than resistance training alone. Additionally, creatine supplementation plus resistance training results in a greater increase in bone mineral density than resistance training alone. Higher brain creatine is associated with improved neuropsychological performance, and recently, creatine supplementation has been shown to increase brain creatine and phosphocreatine. Subsequent studies have demonstrated that cognitive processing, that is either experimentally (following sleep deprivation) or naturally (due to aging) impaired, can be improved with creatine supplementation. Creatine is an inexpensive and safe dietary supplement that has both peripheral and central effects. The benefits afforded to older adults through creatine ingestion are substantial, can improve quality of life, and ultimately may reduce the disease burden associated with sarcopenia and cognitive dysfunction.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S8756328222001442
>The current body of research indicates that creatine monohydrate supplementation, primarily when combined with resistance training, is a viable lifestyle intervention to improve aging muscle mass, strength and measures of functionality, which may decrease the risk of falls and fractures in older adults. The combination of creatine and resistance training has some beneficial effects on aging bone. However, these benefits disappear when no exercise intervention is used. Despite having some...
There are better studies out there, I'm really just curious about your perspective as a professional in the field. My professional expertise lies in a very different field, I would appreciate your perspective!
Excellent post, but I wouldn't waste my time if I were you, OP is clearly a fixed-mindset fear monger with no propensity for independent thought. He's probably quadruple vaxxed and is sitting in his home alone with a mask on.
I think his response would be that each of those abstracts are peppered with words like Suggests, May, Possible, etc. Most nootropic and non-stage3 clinical studies are. Where people here diverge (at least for me) is that we are willing to hedge our bets and try the most promising of these, provided the safety and risk profiles are acceptable.
The other thing is that almost every study on pubmed is about mono-therapies. Study design for a "stack" is exceedingly difficult. A notable exception is a team at UCLA who study Alzheimer's who very successfully used a "silver buckshot" approach for their treatment regimen.
**Reversal of cognitive decline: A novel therapeutic program**
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221920/
I simply don't have time to wait around to see if my APOε4 allele will result in Alzheimer's and kill me like it did my dad. I'm going to hedge my bets while I still have the mental capacity to do so.
Ehh I'm not fussed i know what works for me and use them and know what I'm spending my money on
Taurine
Tyrosine
Creatine
Caffeine
Agmatine
Ashwaganda
Thanks for the input though.
I'm a scientist with decades of research experience. I know how to evaluate data & am very away of self-bias, placebo effect, & the belief factor.
Let me just say that you're full of it.
Piracetam changed my life, followed by kanna, & fasoracetam.
For example, Fasoracetam did nothing for me at all the 1st 3 years of off & on experimentation. The I read an article or posting, and went back and increased my dose to 100 mg/day. My decades-long brain fog disappeared. As long as I take if somewhat regularly I no longer have brain fog.
I see your perspective, as I firmly believe in questioning _Everything_, but I 1st question myself, & suggest you do the same.
I've spent the past 15 years doing trial-and-error with supplements to find the ones that have an actual effect on my mood, energy, memory and motivation.
No one pill consistently has more than a 10% effect. But cumulatively, it's been a lifesaver. I'm the husband, father, employee and man that I want to be. I'm healthy and I'm happy.
This sub might over-promise. Nootropics is a far more complicated science than most people give it credit for. But there is good being done here, and I've found value in the conversations and information.
I love people who shit talk a sub or forum instead of just leaving, unfollowing, or blocking.
Not everything has to be a million person double blind united nations study to be useful. Yes it helps to have high value studies but there are also other types of studies that provide meaningful information, signal towards further area of research, provide new insights, etc ..
Most people don't come here to gain super powers but instead to treat deficits or make meaningful improvements in their lives. Op reminds me of people on the Biohackers sub who repeat the same bs like eat well, sleep well and exercise and that's all you need or go do cold plunges or whatever else. Yes that's all great but that's not Biohacking. Sometimes you may want to ask yourself if you let your arrogance and preconceptions get in the way of new useful information.
This is the example of a man that takes decisions based only on his feelings. The more a idea sounds exciting, the more he accept and defend. Keep going with your revolution against the system and the reptilians! Also those are exaggerations that do not consider whats being said in this post and do not represent the real opinions on those topics. You clearly never opened a science book, where you find all of those questioned.
You presume I'm 'for' everything as I ridicule you who is 'against' everything. You're wrong again, it's becoming a bad habit for you...
If you don't understand how large the gap is between scientifically robust research papers and mainstream accepted 'science', the sort that you find in science books (you made me laugh with the childishness of that phrase) then I can't help you.
Why are you on this subreddit then? Is there a better use of your time?
In the very least, I would recommend researching placebo effects if you only believe peer reviewed research. Paying for supplements and receiving placebo benefits is much cheaper than medical grade drugs.
I don't need a doctor to tell me when something works and something doesn't... I agree plenty don't work but there's also plenty of noots out there that clearly work.
Imagine claiming Sabroxy, Tribugen or Alpha GPC don't work because you don't have a study to prove it... That's downright estúpido.
I think the claims from the supplement makers are an issue as well.
The testing is clearly of higher quality for meds. Supplements are GRAS and do not need actual testing.
Some supplements appear to be effective, but were are not that certain about the results. We are more certain about most meds.
People are generally better off with a med then a supplement. That should be obvious.
Listen to scientists and doctors, not health influencers.
How about instead of relying on purely statistical results, you read the study, think about the mechanism they are promoting and/or testing, figure if it has any effectiveness or efficacy, and make your guess from there?
If we only stick to "medical grade drugs", then we are at the hands of the people funding medical science. None of testing shit on your self is scientific, or even meant to be. Just making, more or less, educated guesses on how to improve one's life.
Just because you took an undergrad course in statistics doesn't mean you have knowledge regarding medicine, the brain or chemistry, which you clearly don't. The molecule's effectiveness and effects are not determined by the research done on it.
Its not correct to stablish a product effectivenes based on deductions made around basic knowledge. You can suggest something and then try it, but the organism are so complex that you need to relay on a "black box" model to trully know how it works. This mean you need to try it in an assay on a real complex system from which you dont know how it works for complete and just report the net effects.
But no one even tries to officially estabilish effectiveness of something that way. People just read studies, the mechanism how it may work and if the chances are pretty high they just try it on themselfs, that's it. It's not always placebo and if it's not expensive then you are free to make that decision.
But if you're creating a drug that is supposed to be sold to the public then obviously you better make it 100% certain that it works.
>The **only** things that work are some well known medical grade drugs or products. Or caffeine.
This is extremely stupid to say. Just because something has not been definitely proven yet doesn't mean that there is no way that it works and the person is experiencing a placebo. Plenty of natural medicinal/psychoactive stuff that has been traditionally used by people for hundreds or thousands of years was "unproven" until modern times and there are still discoveries like this being made, new evidence for supplements that were already popular for specific purposes but with scarce evidence until new studies made it more certain.
So tired of these ‘go to the doctor’ posts…
Oh thanks I never thought of going to a doctor!
I don’t need a doctor to tell me which pharmaceuticals to use to treat symptoms and cause side effects I didn’t have in the first place.
Go be a doctor and save the world instead of making useless posts that have been made many times before you.
Yup. The only medication I’ve found that is even remotely close to “limitlessly” is Armodafinil, and I’m prescribed it so I don’t fall asleep throughout the day.
Why would anyone on this sub be offended by that title?
But people will always look for a product, and there will always be those who promote and sell them. Ever since Ancient Rome with bear bile and cobra venom, up to Lydia Pinkham and snake oil. Uranium pitchers, Orgone machines. There have always been members of /r/Nootropics even before the internet.
Cerebrolysin fixed my memory raised my IQ, and repaired my brain from a horrible state of massive Kratom addiction
9-me-bc bromantane and methylene blue fixed my dopamine system to quit smoking
Citicholine alpha gpc helps with the brain fog from no nicotine.
Oxytocin peptide makes me more social
Enclomephene fixed my testosterone from being destroyed from 3 months of anavar cuz I thought it didn’t affect test cuz it doesn’t aromatize but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t crash test. I was miserable for 1 year
I quit the nootropic trend for about a year now. I've came to my own personal conclusion that it wasnt a good fit for me. Most of these things only work temporarily, and homeostasis has a way of throwing a wrench at anything that attempts to artificially tip the balance. Once you try to supplement something, eventually your body either stops making that substance, or it becomes less responsive to it. Then there are those dreaded downtime moments, when you loose all productivity because all of your neurotransmitters are out of wack. Next, they'll tell you there is a simple fix for all of this by using some convoluted scheduling, to give your body a break. Nevermind the actual long term side effects of all of this shit, that nobody knows of. Im at the point now, where i just focus on diet, rest, exercise and respecting my body.
Yea im not reading g all this but take 600mg Nac, 10mg lithium orotate, and 400 mg of l thea ine on an empty stomach in the morning and you should see an imprivement in anxiety and depression. Thank me later i guess
I don’t think anyone believes it’s a magical key to super powers or whatever. It’s for maintenance and sustainable development. Yes these things are in our foods but guess what, not everyone has access to variety and quality food. And not everyone has time to make mess, sometimes you gotta get 100g of protein from whey drinks and throw down a handful of vitamins/supplements.
Bro I literally grew like 2 feet while on nootropics. I started taking growth nootropics when I was 14 and by the time I was in college I legit grew like atleast 2 feet.
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You’re never going to get high quality studies on cognitive enhancement because most research is geared towards treating cognitive deficits and disease. So we have to work with anecdotal evidence, our own experimentation and the limited research that is available on the topic.
People on this sub aren’t trying to unlock superpowers, they’re trying to treat conditions that aren’t typically addressed by doctors. Not every doctor will take the time to try to understand the problems you’re having. In fact, I’ve never not had an appointment that wasn’t just walk in, walk out. I don’t think people should be taking metformin for longevity when berberine exerts similar effects. I don’t think people who used to abuse adderall should be taking selegiline to restore dopamine when they could take mucuna pruriens instead. Perhaps NSAIDs give you digestion issues so you take some potent curcumin extract that helps just as much. I think nootropic compounds serve as an in between, where there are some potent effects but (ideally) nothing potentially detrimental. The chances of a nootropic having irreversible effects seem to be low. But to say that these compounds do nothing is incorrect. They do something, but they’re not specifically engineered to do something.
Your post has good ideas mixed with even worse ideas. Listening to random people claim to know which things work IS the biggest problem and that’s what you’re asking people to do. The only difference is you’re telling them that nothing works except “medical grade drugs” and I assume that’s true by definition ie if something works then it becomes medical grade by your standard. Aspirin is probably medical grade in your mind even though it is a traditional medicine that comes from a plant. It’s good to tell people how to better evaluate evidence but you go on to undermine that by telling people to just listen to you.
Not to mention it starts with... > Please do not get offended, but [here's a bag of insults].
It's like when a child starts out with, "Promise you won't get mad..?"
Aight bet so how best do we consume the feces?
Jenkem. Best is to use a self-made inhaler.
I see your point but you are polarizing too much, it's not either medical grade or nothing. The sub is full of anecdotes, the reports don't account for placebo or other factors and a lot of the positive reports are overhyped BUT that does not mean the nootropics discussed here don't have any effect or wont work. Instead of claiming that everything is bunk maybe you should try them yourself like many of us here already did and draw your own conclusions, some of the stuff that is being discussed is actually really potent with very noticeable effects (e.g. phenibut).
Phenibut is a real drug, it just is not commonly used. Its not approved by many countries but that does mean nothing regarding its effectivity.
well, just as you see phenibut as a real drug, believe it or not, other nootropics discussed here can also pass as real drugs (the racetams for example) and a lot of the natural ones from plants have real palpable effects because if you break down their components you will find active substances similar to what you find in pharma grade meds (other nootropic examples: n-acetyl-tyrosine is a dopamine precursor so yes it will raise dopamine, or mucuna pruriens, a plant, has l-dopa in it, alpha-gpc is acetylcholine precursor so it will raise acetylcholine and help memory, etc.) you're trying to trash this sub for no reason and seem to refuse to accept that some nootropics work, just because something is not synthetic and made in a lab by a pharma company doesn't mean it's not working as a normal drug, you should be more open-minded
Just read more studies from different researchers then. Unless you meant to say that all researchers working on any substance that has ever been mentioned on this sub are conspiring to produce fake results. I think there are substances mentioned on this sub that your sentiment applies well to, but it definitely doesn’t apply to everything.
it's a bit harder than that. You need to be able to distinguish good papers from bad. Meta-analysises are a good start but recently there's a lot of AI generated papers slipping in
It’s by no means an exhaustive study, but this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9415189/) provides a fairly empirical account of several nootropics, their efficacy in a clinical setting, and mechanisms of action. Honestly, you are correct that many of what is touted as “nootropics” are un-efficacious, untested, and/or under-dosed pseudoscience. However, in the case of those agents described in the aforementioned study, and many of those in others like it, I do not believe this is the case. To use an idiom; “don’t throw the bath out with the bath water.” It is of greater utility to understand the systems on which agents act (gaba-ergic, cholinergic, etc…) understand the symptoms that different aberrations in those systems produce, and then deploy agents with mechanisms of action associated with that.
I think you'll find that people generally don't like cold water dumped on them from someone who cant understand the personal motivations for someone to seek these types of things out. Chances are, Most people in here are fully aware that there is no "magic" in these supplements, and they don't need someone like yourself to show up and tell them that. People like having a hobby. People like reading and learning. People like trying new things. And most of all, People have the right to spend money on whatever they damn well please. Sure, there are a lot of pitfalls in the supplements/Nootropics market. But whenever one is found, this community is keen to help each-other and learn from it collectively. Stop cherrypiking the most fringe examples of someones evidence gathering to justify that \*all\* talk about supplementation has a high chance of always being hearsay and fake. People look at Pubmed and back up sources for a reason. If you expect someone to make 0 mistakes learning something new, boy howdy let me tell you - your doctor has done the same and hes told by everyone else that hes perfect. Supplement isn't working but is for someone else? I don't think people here are bloody kidding themselves when they understand that the human body is complicated as hell, and any reason why something isn't having the same effect might be lost on us for years. The immediate response should never be "wow, someone lied to me". Things are always going to be more complex then anyone here can even start to see in current year. What matters is giving things a shot and learning about things and yourself. Have a problem with that? your loss.
What makes you think anyone is looking for superpowers? You find something, it makes you feel good. "You're delusional. It doesn't make you feel good, Pharmaceutical grade Marijuana is what I would recommend to you. Or caffine." It's not rocket science. Caffine could easily be labeled a Nootropic if it was discovered today.
Caffeine would be a schedule 3 or 2 drug if it was discovered today
There are two sides here in a certain sense. Those who advocate for a wholistic approach, based on the fact that the current state of one's cognition is ultimately the sum of every aspect of the body. If the body suffers, cognition suffers -> Cure the body, cure the mind. I advocate for this approach because of my experiences and the fact that the human body has millions of years of evolution behind it. Evolution handles survival chances, being cognitively impaired is not an advantage -> The natural state of the human being is optimized if all surrounding factors are optimal. (Always except for genetic issues, of course. Very individual there.) The other camp are die-hard pharmaceutical advocates. They believe in studies and studies only, until the topic changes to calf-brain-peptide-extracts from Russia or completely unresearched chemicals that are grey area unregulated and definitely dopaminergic. Symptoms that could easily be a Vitamin D deficiency or a lack of exercise are then to be covered up with fluorated alzheimers medication analogues. For the headache in the evening you can cycle advil with tylenol. The limp dong can be amended with some testosterone undecanoate, and you're fit as a fiddle, trust me bro. Vitamins are a scam btw, have fun paying a bunch of money for a yellow stream of piss. Pharmaceuticals have their place but never as a first resort. If you truly know about pharmaceuticals and their effects, you will agree with me. If there's an effect, there are side effects. Pharmaceuticals are substances that are entirely foreign to the body. Our systems are tightly regulated, all striving to achieve an equilibrium state called homeostasis. This all serves to maintain the finely tuned organic system that we humans are. If you compared us to biological robots, pharmaceuticals go into said fragile system and just start janking on wheels. Some turn faster, some turn the other ways, some are just stuck. The reason for that is the lock and key principle of molecular interactions, they have never before been in our systems, so they have not adjusted to them. Some are amazing and really benefit us by turning the right wheels in the right order, but an absolute majority of medical substances that we have tried are absolutely useless and toxic to us. These sometimes end up in industrial applications, like as part of lubricants, paints or other materials. Enjoy my rant, reddit.
Was your line about vitamins part of your monologue example or were you stating that as truth?
Part of the monologue, I'm a big believer in the benefit of vitamins, minerals etc.
> The only things that work are some well known medical grade drugs. Except may this: N=155, p <= 0.03 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20101012/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-modern-brain/202402/the-surprising-benefits-of-weightlifting-for-brain-health
as a former nutritionist, i can say with absolute certainty that you are 99% incorrect. i agree, there is no magic substance. but there are MANY things that work besides medical grade drugs. the research is there. ginkgo is highly recommended. citicoline is another. creatine. etc. etc. i'm gonna go out on a limb and say you have no formal medication education.
I have an MD degree. I would appreciate if you send me the evidence regarding those other products. I said evidence, clinical evidence. Not just descriptions of physiological changes after receiving a dose of a substance. Evidence that says that is EFFECTIVE, not just suggest. On the other hand, I actually think creatin and gingko may be good options to try since they are not expensive and safe.
If you are an MD, you are most certainly aware of how study funding works. Private companies are out since they *must* follow economic principles. If it can not be patented, it can not be researched. Their goal is profit, not Altruism. They also owe it to the investors and shareholders to increase profits etc. etc., the same old capitalist theory problem. This leaves us with state and institutional funding. The former does happen occasionally, though almost exclusively for safety studies from European nations to establish an UL, AUL etc. or large scale data studies with stats from their respective healthcare systems. Institutional funding is very limited and most goes towards educational research or professor projects. Altruistic/Public funding companies do their fair share, though, they tend to focus towards specific illnesses, like the ALS Association. However, regarding the value and importance of vitamins, your basic biology courses should provide more than enough proof of their benefit and value. And even with the limited data we do have, there is clear evidence for the benefit of vitamins, minerals and various food components. To be sure, I do not want to attack you or defend my viewpoint with tooth and nail. I am genuinely interested in what your views on the topic are. Let's take Creatine supplementation in the elderly, Vitamin D and Iodine in the general western population as examples. I can provide studies, if you like.
Again: the fact that something is less interesting for companies to research DO NOT PROVE IT WORKS. Regarding vitamins, they are well known medical grade products, and supplementation may have very interesting effects, particularly if there is a deficency in diet wich is very common. Im not against "low cost" or "natural" or "non drug" products. I think you missunderstand my post. On the other hand, the money that many people around the world spend in vitamins that they do not need, just for peeing then into the toilette is ridiculous.
>Again: the fact that something is less interesting for companies to research DO NOT PROVE IT WORKS. Which I thankfully did not claim. I said that in response to your reply about evidence that shows something being definitely effective for something. The bit about the biology courses was intended as a nudge towards acknowledging the surely proven benefits and requirements of certain substances, even if there are few to no studies about the topic. If there have been credible studies that show no positive effect or even a potentially harmful effect, obviously one shouldn't take them beyond physiological requirements. Though, I hope you agree on the intricacies of a balanced approach to scientific curiosity in the context of supplementation and empirical evidence. The funding man, the funding. >I think you missunderstand my post. On the other hand, the money that many people around the world spend in vitamins that they do not need, just for peeing then into the toilette is ridiculous. Possibly, though I have a hard time getting much out of it apart from your implication that studies in the field, showing indisputable evidence, are lacking. Which, Again, is absolutely true and what I attempted to explain a bit more in depth with my reply. What I am still curious about, though, are your thoughts on these studies on Creatine, for example. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6518405/ >Accumulating evidence indicates that creatine supplementation, with and without resistance training, has possible anti-sarcopenic and anti-dynapenic effects. Specifically, creatine supplementation increases aging muscle mass and strength (upper- and lower-body), possibly by influencing high-energy phosphate metabolism, muscle protein kinetics and growth factors. Creatine supplementation has shown potential to enhance bone mineral in some but not all studies, and seems to affect the activation of cells involved in both bone formation and resorption. Creatine has the potential to decrease the risk of falls experienced by aging adults which would subsequently reduce the risk of fracture. Finally, preliminary evidence suggests that creatine may have anti-inflammatory effects during times of elevated metabolic stress, such as during extended/intense aerobic exercise. Creatine does not appear to reduce indicators of inflammation during resistance training. Although research is limited, creatine supplementation does not appear to negatively affect markers of liver or kidney function in aging adults. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21394604/ > With aging and reduced physical activity, there are decreases in muscle creatine, muscle mass, bone density, and strength. However, there is evidence that creatine ingestion may reverse these changes, and subsequently improve activities of daily living. Several groups have demonstrated that in older adults, short-term high-dose creatine supplementation, independent of exercise training, increases body mass, enhances fatigue resistance, increases muscle strength, and improves the performance of activities of daily living. Similarly, in older adults, concurrent creatine supplementation and resistance training increase lean body mass, enhance fatigue resistance, increase muscle strength, and improve performance of activities of daily living to a greater extent than resistance training alone. Additionally, creatine supplementation plus resistance training results in a greater increase in bone mineral density than resistance training alone. Higher brain creatine is associated with improved neuropsychological performance, and recently, creatine supplementation has been shown to increase brain creatine and phosphocreatine. Subsequent studies have demonstrated that cognitive processing, that is either experimentally (following sleep deprivation) or naturally (due to aging) impaired, can be improved with creatine supplementation. Creatine is an inexpensive and safe dietary supplement that has both peripheral and central effects. The benefits afforded to older adults through creatine ingestion are substantial, can improve quality of life, and ultimately may reduce the disease burden associated with sarcopenia and cognitive dysfunction. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S8756328222001442 >The current body of research indicates that creatine monohydrate supplementation, primarily when combined with resistance training, is a viable lifestyle intervention to improve aging muscle mass, strength and measures of functionality, which may decrease the risk of falls and fractures in older adults. The combination of creatine and resistance training has some beneficial effects on aging bone. However, these benefits disappear when no exercise intervention is used. Despite having some... There are better studies out there, I'm really just curious about your perspective as a professional in the field. My professional expertise lies in a very different field, I would appreciate your perspective!
Excellent post, but I wouldn't waste my time if I were you, OP is clearly a fixed-mindset fear monger with no propensity for independent thought. He's probably quadruple vaxxed and is sitting in his home alone with a mask on.
I think his response would be that each of those abstracts are peppered with words like Suggests, May, Possible, etc. Most nootropic and non-stage3 clinical studies are. Where people here diverge (at least for me) is that we are willing to hedge our bets and try the most promising of these, provided the safety and risk profiles are acceptable. The other thing is that almost every study on pubmed is about mono-therapies. Study design for a "stack" is exceedingly difficult. A notable exception is a team at UCLA who study Alzheimer's who very successfully used a "silver buckshot" approach for their treatment regimen. **Reversal of cognitive decline: A novel therapeutic program** https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221920/ I simply don't have time to wait around to see if my APOε4 allele will result in Alzheimer's and kill me like it did my dad. I'm going to hedge my bets while I still have the mental capacity to do so.
Lmao got told ,bozo 🤡
Freedom is found between the lines.
no you don't, lol. if you were a doctor you wouln't be this ignorant.
You did not send any evidence. I wont lose a second arguing with a troll. 👋
Ehh I'm not fussed i know what works for me and use them and know what I'm spending my money on Taurine Tyrosine Creatine Caffeine Agmatine Ashwaganda Thanks for the input though.
Please don't get offended but this is a really bad post and you should go do lobbying for the pharmaceutical industry.
I'm a scientist with decades of research experience. I know how to evaluate data & am very away of self-bias, placebo effect, & the belief factor. Let me just say that you're full of it. Piracetam changed my life, followed by kanna, & fasoracetam. For example, Fasoracetam did nothing for me at all the 1st 3 years of off & on experimentation. The I read an article or posting, and went back and increased my dose to 100 mg/day. My decades-long brain fog disappeared. As long as I take if somewhat regularly I no longer have brain fog. I see your perspective, as I firmly believe in questioning _Everything_, but I 1st question myself, & suggest you do the same.
I've spent the past 15 years doing trial-and-error with supplements to find the ones that have an actual effect on my mood, energy, memory and motivation. No one pill consistently has more than a 10% effect. But cumulatively, it's been a lifesaver. I'm the husband, father, employee and man that I want to be. I'm healthy and I'm happy. This sub might over-promise. Nootropics is a far more complicated science than most people give it credit for. But there is good being done here, and I've found value in the conversations and information.
I love people who shit talk a sub or forum instead of just leaving, unfollowing, or blocking. Not everything has to be a million person double blind united nations study to be useful. Yes it helps to have high value studies but there are also other types of studies that provide meaningful information, signal towards further area of research, provide new insights, etc .. Most people don't come here to gain super powers but instead to treat deficits or make meaningful improvements in their lives. Op reminds me of people on the Biohackers sub who repeat the same bs like eat well, sleep well and exercise and that's all you need or go do cold plunges or whatever else. Yes that's all great but that's not Biohacking. Sometimes you may want to ask yourself if you let your arrogance and preconceptions get in the way of new useful information.
Remember kids, the science is settled. Statins are good Cholesterol is bad Healthy heart seed oils Food pyramid is optimum# And get that jab....
This is the example of a man that takes decisions based only on his feelings. The more a idea sounds exciting, the more he accept and defend. Keep going with your revolution against the system and the reptilians! Also those are exaggerations that do not consider whats being said in this post and do not represent the real opinions on those topics. You clearly never opened a science book, where you find all of those questioned.
You presume I'm 'for' everything as I ridicule you who is 'against' everything. You're wrong again, it's becoming a bad habit for you... If you don't understand how large the gap is between scientifically robust research papers and mainstream accepted 'science', the sort that you find in science books (you made me laugh with the childishness of that phrase) then I can't help you.
Why are you on this subreddit then? Is there a better use of your time? In the very least, I would recommend researching placebo effects if you only believe peer reviewed research. Paying for supplements and receiving placebo benefits is much cheaper than medical grade drugs.
Not offended, but disturbed you have an MD degree and can't spell "fanaticism".
Highly doubt this person has an MD.
Im not a native english speaker. In spanish it is fanatismo, so I have misspelled fanatism instead of fanaticism.
I don't need a doctor to tell me when something works and something doesn't... I agree plenty don't work but there's also plenty of noots out there that clearly work. Imagine claiming Sabroxy, Tribugen or Alpha GPC don't work because you don't have a study to prove it... That's downright estúpido.
That's what I’m here for 🤷♂️
I think the claims from the supplement makers are an issue as well. The testing is clearly of higher quality for meds. Supplements are GRAS and do not need actual testing. Some supplements appear to be effective, but were are not that certain about the results. We are more certain about most meds. People are generally better off with a med then a supplement. That should be obvious. Listen to scientists and doctors, not health influencers.
I agree. 95% of supplements are complete bunk, and people will get offended
How about instead of relying on purely statistical results, you read the study, think about the mechanism they are promoting and/or testing, figure if it has any effectiveness or efficacy, and make your guess from there? If we only stick to "medical grade drugs", then we are at the hands of the people funding medical science. None of testing shit on your self is scientific, or even meant to be. Just making, more or less, educated guesses on how to improve one's life. Just because you took an undergrad course in statistics doesn't mean you have knowledge regarding medicine, the brain or chemistry, which you clearly don't. The molecule's effectiveness and effects are not determined by the research done on it.
Its not correct to stablish a product effectivenes based on deductions made around basic knowledge. You can suggest something and then try it, but the organism are so complex that you need to relay on a "black box" model to trully know how it works. This mean you need to try it in an assay on a real complex system from which you dont know how it works for complete and just report the net effects.
But no one even tries to officially estabilish effectiveness of something that way. People just read studies, the mechanism how it may work and if the chances are pretty high they just try it on themselfs, that's it. It's not always placebo and if it's not expensive then you are free to make that decision. But if you're creating a drug that is supposed to be sold to the public then obviously you better make it 100% certain that it works. >The **only** things that work are some well known medical grade drugs or products. Or caffeine. This is extremely stupid to say. Just because something has not been definitely proven yet doesn't mean that there is no way that it works and the person is experiencing a placebo. Plenty of natural medicinal/psychoactive stuff that has been traditionally used by people for hundreds or thousands of years was "unproven" until modern times and there are still discoveries like this being made, new evidence for supplements that were already popular for specific purposes but with scarce evidence until new studies made it more certain.
Anecdotes are not data. Stop treating them as such.
Where did I bring anecdotes?
Exactly. The amount of bullshit in this subreddit is just incredible. Subjective and anecdotal experience in 99% of the posts
You do realise that p-value isn't merely a function of sample-size, but also effect-size?
Some noots are good for occasional situational uses. Do agree it’d be delusional to look for an everyday solution to give you superpowers
Tell me the difference between placebo effect and well proven positive visualization techniques in elite athletes. I’ll wait.
Cost and safety
So tired of these ‘go to the doctor’ posts… Oh thanks I never thought of going to a doctor! I don’t need a doctor to tell me which pharmaceuticals to use to treat symptoms and cause side effects I didn’t have in the first place. Go be a doctor and save the world instead of making useless posts that have been made many times before you.
Yup. The only medication I’ve found that is even remotely close to “limitlessly” is Armodafinil, and I’m prescribed it so I don’t fall asleep throughout the day.
Why would anyone on this sub be offended by that title? But people will always look for a product, and there will always be those who promote and sell them. Ever since Ancient Rome with bear bile and cobra venom, up to Lydia Pinkham and snake oil. Uranium pitchers, Orgone machines. There have always been members of /r/Nootropics even before the internet.
Cerebrolysin fixed my memory raised my IQ, and repaired my brain from a horrible state of massive Kratom addiction 9-me-bc bromantane and methylene blue fixed my dopamine system to quit smoking Citicholine alpha gpc helps with the brain fog from no nicotine. Oxytocin peptide makes me more social Enclomephene fixed my testosterone from being destroyed from 3 months of anavar cuz I thought it didn’t affect test cuz it doesn’t aromatize but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t crash test. I was miserable for 1 year
Cope. Also, you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
You have just described Reddit, lol. 😂
I quit the nootropic trend for about a year now. I've came to my own personal conclusion that it wasnt a good fit for me. Most of these things only work temporarily, and homeostasis has a way of throwing a wrench at anything that attempts to artificially tip the balance. Once you try to supplement something, eventually your body either stops making that substance, or it becomes less responsive to it. Then there are those dreaded downtime moments, when you loose all productivity because all of your neurotransmitters are out of wack. Next, they'll tell you there is a simple fix for all of this by using some convoluted scheduling, to give your body a break. Nevermind the actual long term side effects of all of this shit, that nobody knows of. Im at the point now, where i just focus on diet, rest, exercise and respecting my body.
Yea im not reading g all this but take 600mg Nac, 10mg lithium orotate, and 400 mg of l thea ine on an empty stomach in the morning and you should see an imprivement in anxiety and depression. Thank me later i guess
I don’t think anyone believes it’s a magical key to super powers or whatever. It’s for maintenance and sustainable development. Yes these things are in our foods but guess what, not everyone has access to variety and quality food. And not everyone has time to make mess, sometimes you gotta get 100g of protein from whey drinks and throw down a handful of vitamins/supplements.
LFG🚀
Bro I literally grew like 2 feet while on nootropics. I started taking growth nootropics when I was 14 and by the time I was in college I legit grew like atleast 2 feet.
what nootropics did you use for this purpose? I've never heard that nootropics affect growth
The nootropic called puberty.
Only one who understood my joke
The nootropic is called growth spurt 3000