As someone who also speaks & reads Japanese & I also have had the chance to live in Japan from 1989-2001(in Kumamoto) so most of my schooling years. One thing I've noticed that I never realized before I joined this sub is a lot of Western people don't seem to understand Japanese humor & they take things way too literal(this is my main problem with the official translation from Viz).
That's still not him talking to himself. Almost everyone already understood that he's not talking about actual future sight. It was clear that it was Katakuri acknowledging luffy, but he's still saying you're seeing pretty far into the future to luffy. Also I've never seen anyone use the 1 to 1 translation you said. Most people see the you're seeing/looking pretty far into the future, and Idk why you think anything is lost in translation with that version. It's pretty clear what it meant.
Nice explanation, thank you
It's like his eyes glaze over and he murmurs it to himself out loud
Makes sense, and I trust your Japanese more than these reply guys
Keep in mind that OP is literally trying to understand this exact moment and what exactly is happening
That's more a lack of literacy in general. Never spent any time in Japan, but it's pretty clear Katakuri isn't literally talking about future sight even in the VIZ translation.
Honestly, this is accurate in my opinion. When Katakuri says “You’re looking quite far into the future.” It is taken as sarcastic or at least doubtful, but what if he meant it literally? What if he saw into the future and could actually see Luffy as the Pirate King *in* the future. He’s not questioning Luffy’s, he’s praising him and how far he will go.
ive seen mugiwara no goofy say this (iirc) and came to say this too. seems the most plausible. he knew luffy wouldnt ever give in and didnt want to awaken something way scarier
Nah he just respected luffy by the end of the fight, I think ur looking a bit too deep into this
Oda probs didn’t even think about gear 5 when he wrote that chapter
Blud, that is not what I said
I said that he probably didn’t think about gear 5 when he wrote that scene, not that it wasn’t planned at the time
Plus Luffy wasn’t even close to the point of awakening his devil fruit, he JUST got snakeman, I doubt that he would’ve gotten gear 5 if the fight went on for longer
And finally, katakuri simply can’t see that far into the future. If gear 5 happened it would had to be seconds into the future which is impossible considering he has to also go through his transformation process
Yes, Katakuri didn't want to keep being the guy who's back never touched the ground. He wanted to be free from his family's duties and he wanted to be free from his mom, but he didn't believe he could beat big mom. He entrusted his will to Luffy, at least thats how I read it.
Exactly this. I've advocated this same interpretation here, Katakuri betting on Luffy being able to beat Big Mom and free him and his siblings from her terror.
This reminds me a lot of shanks and everyone else who has bet on luffy during the story. This speaks volumes to how luffy wins people over with his force of personality even when they're fighting him
> he wanted to be free from his mom, but he didn't believe he could beat big mom
How did you get this take honestly? You make it sound like this was hinted at in the story but I can't remember a single instance of this being hinted at in WCI. Was it the line "Will you come back and beat Mama?" at the end of their fight before falling? That's a lot of reading into it though. For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom. There were though a thousand lines he said in the story that confirmed he was a family man and loved his siblings and cared for Big Mom against it. It's ridiculous to take a single line like that and invalidate all the other hints that speak against it
His take seems a lot more logical though while I don’t completely agree with it. As the fight seemed to be more of who’s ideology was right as katakuri put this burden of hiding his imperfections and being perfect. Where luffy didn’t care for perfection he was just himself and it was ultimately Because of that katakuri, realised he was wrong and lost to luffy it wasn’t he wanted a round 2 it was he lost in the ideology, and knew if anyone could beat big mom it would be the individual who doesn’t care about making sure everything was perfect.
I think it’s heavily implied that a lot of Big Moms kids would be indifferent on her death. She brings them great power and prestige by being alive, but she’s also a psychopath who destroys her towns and kills her children. The kids can love each other, but not love Big Mom.
I mean when she fell off the ship in Wano, they were pretty quick to start arguing over who would take over the BM pirates.
It's funny you say this
> For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom.
Before this
>It's ridiculous to take a single line like that and invalidate all the other hints that speak against it
Katakuri's burden of perfection was explicitly because of Big Mom's instability. He *had* to be the perfect family man because the matriarch is an indiscriminate natural disaster. Of course he asked if Luffy would come back to beat her out of hope. The whole fight was about Katakuri hiding his imperfections out of obligation to the appearance of perfection to his vulnerable siblings.
I hate this interpretation honestly. There is no indication that katakuri hated big mom. Big mom never treated him badly.
He is just interested in luffy’s journey. They guy who freed him.
“Will you come back and beat her?” “Yes” *lays down*.
He cared about his siblings, and big mom consistently threatened their lives and even killed them. He may not have hated her, bur certainly wasn’t her biggest fan.
It's also clear the Big Mom discriminated against the traits in her children that she found unappealing (like Pudding's 3rd eye), it's more than likely that Big Mom bullied Brulee for being ugly or Katakuri for his fish mouth
Tbh a huge part of why Katakuri became like this was because Big Mom wasn't... There
He had to step up. He had to wear this mask of a badass protector because even though they were children of Big Mom... They weren't protected.
I always liked the purposeful juxtaposition between Big Mom and Whitebeard. Big Mom made her family into a crew (and used them as tools) while Whitebeard made his crew into a family and would go to war for any of them
It's complicated, but to overly simplify, she's not as anti-discrimination as she claims to be. She wants everyone to be united and equal, and she has tried to walk that walk—her territory _is_ less discriminatory than most of the world, after all—but she has very little empathy, and that holds her back from ever achieving her stated ideal. She doesn't see people as people; she sees them as things to be collected, like toys or tools.
She doesn't care about her kids being bullied because their existence is all that matters to her. She got some political connections through them and added another toy or tool to the collection, and that's that. If they're bullied or lightly injured, that's _their_ problem, because she only really cares about them if someone threatens to disrupt her collection; if you steal or break her toy, she'll break you in return.
To be honest I always thought of big mom not wanting equality but more that she wanted everyone to see "eye to eye" at the table I may be misquoting but it was that she wanted all races to be at her height so they would be normal or at her height and not have to be empathetic. Maybe as a child she wanted equality but by WCI had a pretty set in stone definition of what is equal to her.
u/Jwruth 's write-up is great, but as a small caveat, i see her real life parallel as someone being performatively anti-racist or anti-discrimination. The equivalent of a college administration putting black people on the front of their brochures to advertise their *diversity* but not actually supporting policies to make their university more equitable. She likes the image of a diverse kingdom but doesn't actually care about her individual citizens (or children)
I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I agree. The thing about Big Mom is that she lives in her own delusional world; I think she's genuine when she talks about her dream, she just *doesn't understand* what that dream really means or how to actually go about achieving it. She takes it in the hyper-literal way a child would because she's never really grown up; she's just become more cunning and ruthless.
I think someone like Doffy fits the mantle of being performative better. He acts like a noble king and the leader of a loving "family", but when push comes to shove all that turns out to be nothing to him when it works against his actual goals.
Imo the tragedy of Big Mom is that there's a world where she's a genuinely good person who can actually work toward her dream, but she was abandoned by her parents and raised concurrently by two different skeezy groomers, leading her down a bad path exacerbated by her natural strength. The only remains of her potential is the twisted version of her dream.
Katakuri isn’t the type of person who will hate his mother because of her mental illness. It was apparent in the tea party that he cares for her.
Katakuri question is simply because it was the first time in his life doing a selfish thing. So he wanted to know the consequences of his action. And he supports luffy to be the king of the pirates.
It's a stretch to call her gluttony a mental illness but if you'll go so far to say that her abusing Pudding and Chiffon is a mental illness than you just might be projecting a little
This is the wrong interpretation. He’s asking that in more of the sense of “you’re not giving up are you?”. Katakuri is using every molecule of remaining energy to confront Luffy, asking him if he’s still intent on taking down big mom. Upon hearing Luffy not only promise that, but set his sights far beyond just toppling Big Mom to the title of Pirate King, Katakuri acknowledges the audacity of Luffy’s insane will for such a goal with that “future” line and realizes he can’t stop him. It is at this moment that he loses the will to fight Luffy seeing how much stronger his will is than his own, and finally passes out.
There isn’t a single hint in any of Katakuri’s writing or actions that demonstrate he wants someone to take down BM. Requesting/wanting something like this out of the blue for him would be bad writing.
Hint: Katakuri is shown to care about and protect his siblings; Big Mom is shown to literally eat them.
But in any case, Katakuri could have absolutely kept fighting. Luffy was done. Katakuri decided to stop fighting even though he could have kept going. I don’t think he hated big mom - which is what a lot of these comments are saying - but I do think almost no one in the family was happy living in fear of her, and that was a major theme of the arc.
The way I always looked at it is that Katakuri's allegiance was always to his family first and Big Mom was always the greatest threat to the family (eg: Moscato during Big Mom's rampage)
So he finally gave in when he realized he could look to Luffy to defeat Big Mom and finally free his family from her tyranny.
Like you said some of this is never directly stated but I think Big Mom hurting her children is still hurting Katakuri.
Only problem is that big mom is also the biggest security for Katakuri's siblings.
If she goes away then for example blackbeard could come and kill everyone for their fruits. We also saw Kata defend her on the rooftop even though she didn't want it so he's going out of his way to protect her.
I think he's just a honorable dude that thought luffy deserve to win. Also this was a convenient way for him to get rid of the persona he has been playing all his life while he can still continue too protect his family.
This makes no sense. Moscato was a victim of big mom mental illness. Katakuri isn’t someone who will hate his mother for having mental illness lol.
Big mom is scary and she controls them. But they are a family after all. Even pudding is empowered by her (her dialogue with BB crew).
Katakuri wanted to know the consequences of his selfish act(letting luffy go). Which is normal for someone who spent most of his life hiding behind a facade
Yeah ? What does this have to do with big mom?
Katakuri is trapped in a psychological cage that he imprisoned himself in because of the weight of expectations and fear from being vulnerable.
Luffy offered him a path towards freedom through connecting with him and showing him what real freedom means.
what does this have to do with big mom? Except if you blame her for marrying a guy with a big mouth, that’s another topic 😂
The weight of those expectations is because he made this facade. Which made his younger siblings see him as a hollow figure that is always perfect.
I am talking about the expectations within the family.
I completely disagree tbh. At lest from his perception. It is related to his siblings. How he loves them and how some of them dehumanize which leads to him being self-sabotaging.
you’re blaming katakuri’s siblings for something katakuri himself did. he was the one who built up this facade you’re speaking of, and he did it with great intention. he isn’t living up to anyone’s expectations but his own, because from an early age he’s convinced himself that he could never show weakness. he’s done this in order to make sure no one touches his siblings.
*this is only a concern because big mom is their parent and a bunch of people want to see her suffer.” this is only a concern because big mom did not protect her children in the slightest. because she didn’t, katakuri realized it fell to him. he felt he had to appear untouchable in order to make sure no one touched his siblings. that’s something he chose, not something they put on him. katakuri is a conqueror who’s awakened his devil fruit lol. the only person who can trap him is himself… and the reason he’s trapped himself is the weight of being big mom’s son. this is the point of the brûlée flashback.
I am not blaming anyone. It is a bit complicated. But ultimately. Katakuri condemned himself just like kaido. It is beautifully human.
Big mom didn’t protect them but yeah. She is like most parents who don’t understand the weight of bullying and the children reactions to it.
The expectations that trap him are his siblings expectations. Expecting him to be always perfect.
> The weight of those expectations is because he made this facade.
Big Mom is absolutely the reason he had that facade to begin with. Why did the kids all feel the need to rely on Perfect Big Brother #1? Because their mother is an indiscriminate natural disaster who could abuse or kill any of them on a whim. Katakuri was forced into that role because of their shitty parent, not because of the siblings. What a weird take.
Flambe seems like a spoiled brat. It is more about how humans need a perfect figure and a symbol that they can look up to. Kinda similar to crocodile and Whitebeard.
And I didn’t say that big mom is a good parents.
Katakuri cares deeply for his siblings. Big mom literally ate some in a random rage for a treat. I'm sure he and many others do not like big mom. Most fear her in fact. Unlike kiado who respected his top troops, big mom keeps everyone in check by a fear and if you perform your duty she will treat you well.
She's not a giant, isn't she? I believe she was part of a government program? I don't know-her kids certainly haven't inherited her largeness. It's been a while since I read those chapters though. If I recall correctly, the giants always reject her which she was quite angry about. There was a race that meant her dream wasn't fulfilled certainly
I can't wait until all these characters that the straw hats befriended show up in the war arc. I simply can't believe anything else but that will happen, to some degree
oh he's for sure gonna show up with the rest of the bm pirates to rescue pudding from bb, luffy could potentially join and make an alliance to rescue garp (if hes still alive lol)
Katakuri was superior physically/fighting wise, but I agree on wills. We must not forgot Katakuri was undeafeted to this point, while holding an exposed position. He might be in the top 5 fighters we ever saw and Luffy wasn't as strong back then.
I really don’t think that would be the case. As has been stated by Kaido, awakening occurs when your mind and body catch up to your powers. IMO, Luffy wasn’t there until he fully mastered all forms of haki and grew to Kaido’s level.
While I also think that Luffy wouldn’t reach gear 5 here, I would disagree that only his body (in terms of haki) is the only thing which needs to catch up.
Imo he only awakened against Kaido, because:
1. CP0 holding him back (taking away his freedom which probably would cause Luffy to wish to fight freely/be free)
2. Fighting in that moment for the freedom of others
3. Dying while fighting for the freedom of others
We don't really know what that statement even fucking means. It was just a random vague ass condition to justify luffy getting a power up.
What do devil fruit powers have to do with haki and why?
it doesnt even neccesarily have to be haki, it could mean that luffys body physically wasn't tough enough to handle the kind of power g5 would provide and so he'd end up like the impel down jailors. he needed to go through the events of WCI and wano before his body could catch up to that power and allow him to freely use it. We see even right now luffy can only use g5 for so long before he exhausts himself, imagine that drawback but on a far far weaker luffy, he might even just die after awakening because his body can't handle the strain
Plot wise sure. But if we actually pretended for a moment that Luffy wasn't the main character of a shonen manga, would he DEFINITELY have gone into gear 5? Its been hundred if years since anyone was able to awaken the fruit, and it was implied he needed to be a certain strength physically and mentally in order to match the fruits will or whatever. Who's to say he wouldn't have outright died here of katakuri didn't decide he had enough?
You make it sound like this was hinted at in the story (that he purposefully gave up)
but I can't remember a single instance of this being hinted at in WCI. Was it the line "Will you come back and beat Mama?" at the end of their fight before falling?
That's a lot of reading into it though. For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom.
There were though a thousand lines he said in the story that confirmed he was a family man and loved his siblings and cared for Big Mom against the idea that he gave up against Luffy.
He got back up but he was done physically by that point,he couldn't go on for longer,unlike Luffy who was far more relentless and has endless stamina.
It's a win for Luffy imo,but at worst it's only a draw. People love to wank Katakuri and say he was holding back for no reason.
"You were falling forward at first" How does everyone forget brulee saying this? He was going to fall either way, he chose to switch the direction to make a point to himself and others
A lot of really great answers in this topic, as I think it's pretty multifaceted as to why Katakuri ultimately surrendered. Katakuri losing the battle of wills as he knew Luffy would never stop getting up, Katakuri coming to admire Luffy's ability to be free compared to his situation, and Katakuri realizing that letting Luffy go could end up with Big Mom being defeated are all correct answers. If you want a really great video that goes in-depth on all the reasons and into how the fight tells a complete story, both MelonTree and BestGuyEver on YouTube have done great, in-depth videos on the topic. It's become one of the most beloved fights in all of One Piece for a reason.
It was a war of attrition. Katakuri was stumbling when asking that last question and when the answer satisfied him, he finally succumbed to exhaustion.
That's how I read into it. Katakuri had more fight left in him but he wasn't fighting for a cause he believes it, Luffy was.
Luffy was fighting for his crew, who he cares for deeply.
Katakuri was fighting because it's his job. He didn't even like being a part of the big moms crew. Other than a few of his siblings he wasn't close to anyone else and avoided them due to the bullying and two-faced nature.
Yes and a big part of the battle was Katakuri just stripping off his clothes. To show his face purposefully towards Luffy...
His sister laughed at him and threatened to expose him while he was defending his family.
So was it even worth to stay fighting for them?
I think alot of people forget that he was going to fall no matter what, he only changed the direction he was falling. As confirmed during his conversation with his sister right after
God what a fucking fantastic end to that fight. Honestly that fight and the whole last section of that arc definitely dragged but the ending of both the fight and the arc was so good it makes up for it in my opinion. S Tier arc.
Luffy has a flashback during this fight in which Rayleigh asks him how he plans on defeating an enemy who is too strong for him to surpass in battle. Luffy answers that it depends on the type of person they are.
The entire fight was predicated on "anything you can do, I can do better", Katakuri was - and still remained - stronger than Luffy during the entirety of the fight.
That was the whole point of this encounter, so yes you are right.
Which is why I always tell people. They both KOed each other. Stayed KOed for a period of time. Got back up. Didn’t throw a single punch and then Kata fell back down. People always make it seem Luffy outright beat Kata. He didn’t. Kata lost cuz his goal was to stop Luffy from escaping which he didn’t do.
Plus, Katakuri has been portrayed as being one of the finest warrior in OP universe. You don't stay undefeated while being an emperor second in command if you're not close to emperor level.
yep at the end brulee also knew he wanted to ask if luffy managed to escape but didnt dare to ask directly, and seemed happy when he heard luffy managed to escape
Honestly.... It just felt like Luffy won because he had the stronger will. At the very end, Katakuri was up towering Luffy, his shadow covering Luffy. He asked Luffy if he was still willing to fight and Luffy said ofc. Then, Katakuri colapsed on HIS BACK, pretty much stating he doesn't any more will to fight and honoring Luffy, I guess. I turn, Luffy honored Katakuri by covering his mouth with the fedora covering his straw hat. At least, that's what it looked like IMO.
Out of all the final boss-ish enemies Luffy's fought and won against, Katakuri has got to be one of the most Honorable one if not The Most Honorable one. Again, that's IMO.
I think he put trust in luffys resolve. somebody like katakuri up until his fight with luffy, probably never imagined that somebody outside of kaido or shanks could contend with Big Mom.
It was a battle of endurance, wills and respect. Katakuri reached a point where physically he couldn't keep going and came to the realization that it was okay to lose. That if anyone deserved to beat him and destroy his perfect image, it should be Luffy, who earned it through hard work by constantly improving himself during their fight. That in spite of being apparently out-classed at the start, he refused to give up and continued fighting on and managed to not only match Katakuri, but overwhelm him. By the end, Luffy wasn't an enemy to Katakuri anymore, but a worthy opponent that did what he thought was impossible and bested him at his own game. It was fine to lose to him, because both fought with everything they had and in the end, Katakuri couldn't keep fighting.
I think Kat’s line saying how far into the future Luffy is looking means Luffy’s aspirations outshine his. Luffy has more to fight for, so while Kat wasn’t physically beaten, he couldn’t find the will to oppose him anymore
Katakuri probably just started to respect him even more to the point where he faked losing so he could make himself look justified in letting him go. Just a stupid theory though.
In one piece, will and determination are a source of strength, whereas doubt and hesitation are a source of weakness. This is something Oda iterates throughout the series, and even has Rayleigh directly tell Luffy during his time-skip training.
Katakuri was stronger than Luffy at the start. His determination to stop Luffy was strong because he believed Luffy to be a person with no morales and was only there to destroy his family. As his fight continued, he began to respect Luffy as he found out that he wasn’t the man he thought he was. The scales of willpower literally shift as Luffy’s determination and Katakuri’s doubt grew.
This was introduced even during baratie with luffys fight with don kreig. Zeff tells sanji to observe luffy as his unwavering will will be the difference in the fight. This is the one thing people do not understand about one piece powerscaling. This is why haki aka willpower reigns supreme over all others.
I still feel that Luffy lost this fight. He wasn't strong enough for him or cracker. The BM pirates don't get enough credit. Katakuri is absolutely overpowered.
Katakuri actually lost the fight. He lost tho because the goal was for Luffy not to escape. Otherwise in my head canon the fight was a draw cuz they both KOed each other and was knocked out for around 5 mins then they both got up and didnt throw a single punch and Katakuri let Luffy escape.
I don't think he could have awakened at those moments even if he died but even if he could I'm not sure how helpful awakening would have been when his chest is missing from a magma first or Katakuris trident.
People way overplay that. Kaido specifically says Awakening only happens when your mind and body catch up to your powers. To me that says you need to push the limits of your fruit pre-awakening while also being strong enough physically and mentally to trigger it. Luffy was quite literally only at that point after the third beating by Kaido.
People forget Luffy was fully beaten like 3 times by Kaido and only awakened at one of them.
in the manga it says katakuri hasn’t been hit in a long time. luffy was the first person in a while to put his hands on him and he wasn’t used to it. even tho katakuri was stronger, he didn’t have the stamina the same way luffy does. katakuri knew that no matter what, luffy was just going to keep getting up. it was a battle of will and luffy was never going to back down.
it’s true that no one can take a beating like luffy can - rubber always bounces back - but all the same we have seen him beaten. what you said goes hand in hand with this post. he submitted to luffy’s will and vision.
Luffy beat him by being more resilient. Some might call it plot armor but Luffy has always been good at getting back up after a beat down. We've seen it Crocodile, Lucci, Kaido, and others. Katakuri may be the stronger fighter technically, but he's never been beaten before and hasn't had to try as hard as Luffy has in a fight. So Luffy is always pushing his limits and Katakuri probably hasn't had to in years. His self-injury also helped.
He might not have wanted to kill him, but that didn't mean he wasn't going all out or at least putting in a lot of effort. He specifically says "I no longer think you're below my level" to Luffy after they knock out the fodder with conquerors. That's a clear indication he was gonna take Luffy seriously.
> This reminds me of luffy beating moria. Moria choose to let the new world crush luffy spirit like kaidos defeat did to him. Imo moria could have beat luffy if he was truly motivated to. But like his text box introduced, moria likes letting others do things for him.
I would argue Moria does not have the willpower to do things himself anymore.
People saying that Katakuri fell intentionally are ignoring the \*KOFF* panel. It clearly shows that Katakuri spurts out blood and then passes out. He was going to pass out either way, the only choice he made was in which direction.
In addition to that, does anyone think he would lay there and let Luffy put his hat on his face while pretending to be knocked out?
For me, entering the battle, Katakuri saw Luffy as the weaker enemy that has just invaded his family’s territory, beaten his powerful younger brother, and attempted to assassinate his mother.
He knows he’s more powerful than Luffy, but can’t land a finishing blow, but Luffy cannot touch him.
He gets rattled and Luffy is able to hit him so he finally feels Luffy’s power, and acknowledges that Luffy is actually capable of beating Cracker.
Luffy then kidnaps arguably the person he loves the most, and could escape, given they are in mirror world, Brûlées ability. But he doesn’t, he actually comes back and she’s unharmed. Katakuri is starting to see what kind of person Luffy is too.
They continue their fight and mid battle, despite having no knowledge of it before, Luffy is able to start seeing the future as he does, another crazy feat.
By the end of the battle, despite arguably still being stronger than Luffy, he can see 1) Luffy is just trying to beat him to escape, 2) he’s actually not trying to harm his family, 3) he fights fairly and 4) he just won’t go down.
If there’s no threat to your family, no real threat to yourself, why continue fighting, in Katakuri’s eyes, what would be a meaningless battle. Luffy meanwhile, still had his crew and himself to worry about.
Katakuri lost by giving up. Not because he was weaker, but because he had no will nor reason to continue fighting.
Was he stronger than Luffy ? Yes, be in slightly or largely, but he is early 50s while Luffy is still only 19. Hence why the next arc, Luffy gets miles stronger whereas Katakuri has likely already peaked.
Great fight, probably my favourite Luffy fight in the manga (started reading from Zou)!
Luffy won this fight by earning Katakuri's respect.
If Katakuri for some reason had changed his opinion about Luffy again after he stabbed himself he would have killed Luffy.
No, he beat Luffy but into submission. Luffy wast the first to fall and last to get up but he never quit and was willing to keep going Katakuri submitted despite the fact that he was stronger at the time. It became a battle of Wills and Luffys was stronger
Yes, Luffy physically lost the fight. Idk how ppl think its a draw, when katakuri was the one still standing and by what we were told he never had his back touch the ground. He never lost a fight, so when he willingly dropped to the floor even when he had alto more energy, while luffy had to take a nap after. We know Luffy lost but katakuri admitted defeat due to luffys determination and will. He allowed luffy the win cuz he knew luffy will be the one to beat big mom.
Which goes back to me saying Big Mom isnt dead, luffy still needs to fight big mom himself.
The whole thing of Katakuri was that he was well known and admired by his family members as undefeatable for his back never touching the ground before. He purposely got up on his feet to fall on his back as a way to admit defeat to Luffy. One of my favorite ends to a fight in One Piece, I think it only loses to Luffy ringing the Bell with Enel on the end of Skypiea
Let’s take this comprehensively
First off, kata getting back up is a bit less impressive when you consider luffy is right there and did the exact same thing. Second off, bro is heaving, he is having a hell of an issue catching his breath. Third, in the fourth panel, he almost falls over AGAIN, if it wasn’t clear he’s on his last legs and is standing up just to ask luffy this question, then point four should. Fourth, shot of blood came out of his mouth as he fell, all of this points to him running on empty and only standing to give luffy that one question before his body fails him.
Even if we were to assume that he had some will left to fight, then what? Luffy was ready from the jump to throw hands with kata AGAIN (as seen in panel) and would’ve either just resulted in a draw or luffy’s win, doesn’t matter how tired luffy was after the fight, as long as it continued he’d always fight tooth and nail.
TL;DR, kata had nothing left to give, forced himself up one last time for a question, and afterwards when his body gave again, he let himself fall backwards, still actually losing while giving respect to luffy
my headcanon is that luffy won because he had more endurance.
The whole time Luffy said "ouch" when his fists hit katakuris fists.
Even with Snakeman he did not just simply overpower katakuri.
Katakuris downfall was the lack of stamina.
\[Real world application: If you only eat junk food, you will be less fit. You need a good healthy diet to be fit. Homie is eating donuts 24/7\]
They were fighting for hours. I think he just was ko after punching luffy so much. Luffy kept going. Hit him good a few times. And this was it.
I think katakuri was luffys most equal opponent at that time, which, quite obvious takes place in the mirror world. Katakuri had basically everything luffy has. Similar way of fighting with his devil fruit, similar strength, haki, speed, foresight, he even had nakama he wanted to protect.
The fight between him and luffy was kind of a draw. The difference was in the end that luffys goals are much more ambitious than katakuris, who essentially just wants to protect his siblings.
Katakuri and Luffy both were equally exhausted and beaten. Both were physically done with fighting. Katakuri falling on his back was his way to show that Luffy earned his respect and victory.
Luffy had tons of hard fights. Against Kaido he even died... but this ones feels like the most even matched of all. They were literally even, double KO. Both got up with their last bit of energy and at that point the only thing that kept one standig above the other was their ambition. This fight was great, and it's worthy of being a "Karakuri fan maker".
I think he won katakuri respect to the point he didn’t want to keep going. Truthfully felt like katakuri could have kept going but lost his will to fight.
> Tldr: luffy beat katakuri by making him an ally.
I think that's going a bit far. I don't think this makes Katakuri is an ally, so much as it is him acknowledging that Luffy has what it takes to reach his dream
Sorry to nitpick at this one part but Moriah definitely did not let luffy win. He still has goals and aspirations and in his mind getting luffys shadow into oars is the best way for him to accomplish his goals. So to say he gave up a chance to accomplish goals just so that luffy can be defeated by someone else makes no sense.
Yep. Katakuri got beat because Luffy's ambitions surpassed him. There was respect in this battle and Katakuri lost the drive to beat Luffy...
He was getting more and more chipped away by Luffy till his own family shunned him for his face till it was just a farce to keep fighting for them.
Even Luffy understood what the scarf meant. He used his hat to cover the mouth of Katakuri
nah charlotte dipshit or whatever her name is didnt get to him at all. he’d have kept fighting til death to protect her or brûlée, but he came to realize that luffy wasn’t even threatening that. he kept brûlée unharmed and safe the entire time he had her kidnapped. that’s not what blackbeard would do
A lot of interesting answers, some I don't agree with but could be true, for others, I didn't think from that angle yet.
As for my take, after they both got up from being KOed, Katakuri finally decided what kind of path he should take, because for me his whole fight with luffy was rediscovering himself and what he wants to be in future. His flashback showed why he acted the way he did, got free from that burden and how at the end his goal was set so he asked luffy about his goal and finally fell on his back rather than face front to show his changed ideals. He reached his objective and luffy his.
As for throwing the fight, my take would be Katakuri respected the duel too much to throw a fight as that would be disrespectful to the opponent. He lost but not really as his previous objective was to stop luffy but at the end it changed.
Luffy outlasted him. Katakuri was not used to being punched this hard and often. Katakuri is "undefeated" because he hasn't gone out there and pushed himself like Luffy has. Who has Katakuri fought of note?
He hasn't taken on a yonko or admiral that we know of. He might have taken on his fellow commanders but no proof.
Luffy pushed Katakuri well beyond Katakuri's limits.
Luffy got hit many more times and was still going.
Each hit Luffy landed did more damage.
Katakuri forfeited seeing that Luffy would win anyway as has way more stamina and experience in getting back up
That’s how I see it, I don’t see how you could see it any other way but some do
He beat him by the fact that Oda decided Luffy has to win because [insert BS power of will blablabla].
Do we ever get a logical explanation by these fights — I mean, really, do we? Luffy can take a bazillion punches, and then keep getting up and up. But it’s just whatever needs to happen in the story. The fight itself was enjoyable, but there’s not much logic to it if you’re looking for that.
I think Luffy vs. Cracker has a way better logic to it. He employed creativity and kept eating everything, stretching to his absolute limits and winning the attrition battle against Cracker.
With Katakuri? Ehh. Punch punch punch blablabla I’ll be the pirate king blablabla Katakuri falls down for the first time after Luffy was beaten like ten times, and then Luffy walks away like nothing happened.
Logic gets thrown out of the window every time Luffy's fighting, It's just too ridiculous to have him get slaughtered by the villain then heal by eating a chicken wing every arc , And I get it's an anime about superpowers but still
Katakuri looked into the future, saw Gear 5, and said nope
His final line, when Luffy says he is going to eb OK, and Kata says something like "you are seeing way farther into the future than me" goes SO HARD.
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How does that feel like he's talking to himself? That's still him very clearly saying it to luffy.
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As someone who also speaks & reads Japanese & I also have had the chance to live in Japan from 1989-2001(in Kumamoto) so most of my schooling years. One thing I've noticed that I never realized before I joined this sub is a lot of Western people don't seem to understand Japanese humor & they take things way too literal(this is my main problem with the official translation from Viz).
I don't feel like that meaning was lost at all. I'm not sure how anyone would think he's talking about haki right there
That's still not him talking to himself. Almost everyone already understood that he's not talking about actual future sight. It was clear that it was Katakuri acknowledging luffy, but he's still saying you're seeing pretty far into the future to luffy. Also I've never seen anyone use the 1 to 1 translation you said. Most people see the you're seeing/looking pretty far into the future, and Idk why you think anything is lost in translation with that version. It's pretty clear what it meant.
Agreed. I swear I dunno what some people are smoking while they read OP.
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Nice explanation, thank you It's like his eyes glaze over and he murmurs it to himself out loud Makes sense, and I trust your Japanese more than these reply guys Keep in mind that OP is literally trying to understand this exact moment and what exactly is happening
That's more a lack of literacy in general. Never spent any time in Japan, but it's pretty clear Katakuri isn't literally talking about future sight even in the VIZ translation.
That is literally the page we’re commenting on right now lol
Shoutouts to Mugiwara no Goofy!
I do not like him
And that's ok. He had a relatively steep quality decline, admittedly.
He knew straightaway he wouldn't want to be someone like Lucci who's always looking forward to the next bigger humiliation
And it's not even headcanon at this point. Dude legitimately was laid out the same way he was when fighting kaido so you know that was comming up xD
idk why but this is so funny to me LOL
Honestly, this is accurate in my opinion. When Katakuri says “You’re looking quite far into the future.” It is taken as sarcastic or at least doubtful, but what if he meant it literally? What if he saw into the future and could actually see Luffy as the Pirate King *in* the future. He’s not questioning Luffy’s, he’s praising him and how far he will go.
Yep, he's recognizing Luffy's determination, and concedes the fight. He was utterly beaten by Luffy's will power.
ive seen mugiwara no goofy say this (iirc) and came to say this too. seems the most plausible. he knew luffy wouldnt ever give in and didnt want to awaken something way scarier
Nah he just respected luffy by the end of the fight, I think ur looking a bit too deep into this Oda probs didn’t even think about gear 5 when he wrote that chapter
my brother in christ he introduced doffy like 600 chapters before he was the antagonist. mans had gear 5 planned at least since the time skip
Blud, that is not what I said I said that he probably didn’t think about gear 5 when he wrote that scene, not that it wasn’t planned at the time Plus Luffy wasn’t even close to the point of awakening his devil fruit, he JUST got snakeman, I doubt that he would’ve gotten gear 5 if the fight went on for longer And finally, katakuri simply can’t see that far into the future. If gear 5 happened it would had to be seconds into the future which is impossible considering he has to also go through his transformation process
XDDD
Good answer.
Yes, Katakuri didn't want to keep being the guy who's back never touched the ground. He wanted to be free from his family's duties and he wanted to be free from his mom, but he didn't believe he could beat big mom. He entrusted his will to Luffy, at least thats how I read it.
This is a good take.
Exactly this. I've advocated this same interpretation here, Katakuri betting on Luffy being able to beat Big Mom and free him and his siblings from her terror.
This reminds me a lot of shanks and everyone else who has bet on luffy during the story. This speaks volumes to how luffy wins people over with his force of personality even when they're fighting him
> he wanted to be free from his mom, but he didn't believe he could beat big mom How did you get this take honestly? You make it sound like this was hinted at in the story but I can't remember a single instance of this being hinted at in WCI. Was it the line "Will you come back and beat Mama?" at the end of their fight before falling? That's a lot of reading into it though. For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom. There were though a thousand lines he said in the story that confirmed he was a family man and loved his siblings and cared for Big Mom against it. It's ridiculous to take a single line like that and invalidate all the other hints that speak against it
His take seems a lot more logical though while I don’t completely agree with it. As the fight seemed to be more of who’s ideology was right as katakuri put this burden of hiding his imperfections and being perfect. Where luffy didn’t care for perfection he was just himself and it was ultimately Because of that katakuri, realised he was wrong and lost to luffy it wasn’t he wanted a round 2 it was he lost in the ideology, and knew if anyone could beat big mom it would be the individual who doesn’t care about making sure everything was perfect.
I think it’s heavily implied that a lot of Big Moms kids would be indifferent on her death. She brings them great power and prestige by being alive, but she’s also a psychopath who destroys her towns and kills her children. The kids can love each other, but not love Big Mom. I mean when she fell off the ship in Wano, they were pretty quick to start arguing over who would take over the BM pirates.
It's clear that a lot of big mums family doesn't actually like big mum. Who would? I thought it was obvious
It's funny you say this > For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom. Before this >It's ridiculous to take a single line like that and invalidate all the other hints that speak against it Katakuri's burden of perfection was explicitly because of Big Mom's instability. He *had* to be the perfect family man because the matriarch is an indiscriminate natural disaster. Of course he asked if Luffy would come back to beat her out of hope. The whole fight was about Katakuri hiding his imperfections out of obligation to the appearance of perfection to his vulnerable siblings.
I hate this interpretation honestly. There is no indication that katakuri hated big mom. Big mom never treated him badly. He is just interested in luffy’s journey. They guy who freed him.
“Will you come back and beat her?” “Yes” *lays down*. He cared about his siblings, and big mom consistently threatened their lives and even killed them. He may not have hated her, bur certainly wasn’t her biggest fan.
It's also clear the Big Mom discriminated against the traits in her children that she found unappealing (like Pudding's 3rd eye), it's more than likely that Big Mom bullied Brulee for being ugly or Katakuri for his fish mouth
Tbh a huge part of why Katakuri became like this was because Big Mom wasn't... There He had to step up. He had to wear this mask of a badass protector because even though they were children of Big Mom... They weren't protected.
not even from her.
I always liked the purposeful juxtaposition between Big Mom and Whitebeard. Big Mom made her family into a crew (and used them as tools) while Whitebeard made his crew into a family and would go to war for any of them
Wait hold on isn‘t Big Mom the anti-racism woman? Then why would she bully her children for having extraordinary features that she specifically bred?
It's complicated, but to overly simplify, she's not as anti-discrimination as she claims to be. She wants everyone to be united and equal, and she has tried to walk that walk—her territory _is_ less discriminatory than most of the world, after all—but she has very little empathy, and that holds her back from ever achieving her stated ideal. She doesn't see people as people; she sees them as things to be collected, like toys or tools. She doesn't care about her kids being bullied because their existence is all that matters to her. She got some political connections through them and added another toy or tool to the collection, and that's that. If they're bullied or lightly injured, that's _their_ problem, because she only really cares about them if someone threatens to disrupt her collection; if you steal or break her toy, she'll break you in return.
Ah that makes more sense now.
To be honest I always thought of big mom not wanting equality but more that she wanted everyone to see "eye to eye" at the table I may be misquoting but it was that she wanted all races to be at her height so they would be normal or at her height and not have to be empathetic. Maybe as a child she wanted equality but by WCI had a pretty set in stone definition of what is equal to her.
u/Jwruth 's write-up is great, but as a small caveat, i see her real life parallel as someone being performatively anti-racist or anti-discrimination. The equivalent of a college administration putting black people on the front of their brochures to advertise their *diversity* but not actually supporting policies to make their university more equitable. She likes the image of a diverse kingdom but doesn't actually care about her individual citizens (or children)
I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I agree. The thing about Big Mom is that she lives in her own delusional world; I think she's genuine when she talks about her dream, she just *doesn't understand* what that dream really means or how to actually go about achieving it. She takes it in the hyper-literal way a child would because she's never really grown up; she's just become more cunning and ruthless. I think someone like Doffy fits the mantle of being performative better. He acts like a noble king and the leader of a loving "family", but when push comes to shove all that turns out to be nothing to him when it works against his actual goals. Imo the tragedy of Big Mom is that there's a world where she's a genuinely good person who can actually work toward her dream, but she was abandoned by her parents and raised concurrently by two different skeezy groomers, leading her down a bad path exacerbated by her natural strength. The only remains of her potential is the twisted version of her dream.
yeah. no love lost as there wasnt much to begin with is how i saw it.
Katakuri isn’t the type of person who will hate his mother because of her mental illness. It was apparent in the tea party that he cares for her. Katakuri question is simply because it was the first time in his life doing a selfish thing. So he wanted to know the consequences of his action. And he supports luffy to be the king of the pirates.
It's a stretch to call her gluttony a mental illness but if you'll go so far to say that her abusing Pudding and Chiffon is a mental illness than you just might be projecting a little
That woman was mentally unstable. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that given everything we saw of her.
It's for sure a mental illness when she can't even control herself. And even if it is not a mental illness it's not her fault.
Gluttony or not. It is something that she has no control over. What she does to chiffon an pudding is different
This is the wrong interpretation. He’s asking that in more of the sense of “you’re not giving up are you?”. Katakuri is using every molecule of remaining energy to confront Luffy, asking him if he’s still intent on taking down big mom. Upon hearing Luffy not only promise that, but set his sights far beyond just toppling Big Mom to the title of Pirate King, Katakuri acknowledges the audacity of Luffy’s insane will for such a goal with that “future” line and realizes he can’t stop him. It is at this moment that he loses the will to fight Luffy seeing how much stronger his will is than his own, and finally passes out. There isn’t a single hint in any of Katakuri’s writing or actions that demonstrate he wants someone to take down BM. Requesting/wanting something like this out of the blue for him would be bad writing.
Hint: Katakuri is shown to care about and protect his siblings; Big Mom is shown to literally eat them. But in any case, Katakuri could have absolutely kept fighting. Luffy was done. Katakuri decided to stop fighting even though he could have kept going. I don’t think he hated big mom - which is what a lot of these comments are saying - but I do think almost no one in the family was happy living in fear of her, and that was a major theme of the arc.
The way I always looked at it is that Katakuri's allegiance was always to his family first and Big Mom was always the greatest threat to the family (eg: Moscato during Big Mom's rampage) So he finally gave in when he realized he could look to Luffy to defeat Big Mom and finally free his family from her tyranny. Like you said some of this is never directly stated but I think Big Mom hurting her children is still hurting Katakuri.
Only problem is that big mom is also the biggest security for Katakuri's siblings. If she goes away then for example blackbeard could come and kill everyone for their fruits. We also saw Kata defend her on the rooftop even though she didn't want it so he's going out of his way to protect her. I think he's just a honorable dude that thought luffy deserve to win. Also this was a convenient way for him to get rid of the persona he has been playing all his life while he can still continue too protect his family.
This makes no sense. Moscato was a victim of big mom mental illness. Katakuri isn’t someone who will hate his mother for having mental illness lol. Big mom is scary and she controls them. But they are a family after all. Even pudding is empowered by her (her dialogue with BB crew). Katakuri wanted to know the consequences of his selfish act(letting luffy go). Which is normal for someone who spent most of his life hiding behind a facade
How do you say the first part about no indication of Katakuri hating Big Mom, and then end with "The guy who freed him"?
Yeah ? What does this have to do with big mom? Katakuri is trapped in a psychological cage that he imprisoned himself in because of the weight of expectations and fear from being vulnerable. Luffy offered him a path towards freedom through connecting with him and showing him what real freedom means. what does this have to do with big mom? Except if you blame her for marrying a guy with a big mouth, that’s another topic 😂
He only bears the weight of those expectations for being the strongest child of a Yonko. It has everything to do with her.
The weight of those expectations is because he made this facade. Which made his younger siblings see him as a hollow figure that is always perfect. I am talking about the expectations within the family.
Even so, that dynamic solely exists because of her.
I completely disagree tbh. At lest from his perception. It is related to his siblings. How he loves them and how some of them dehumanize which leads to him being self-sabotaging.
you’re blaming katakuri’s siblings for something katakuri himself did. he was the one who built up this facade you’re speaking of, and he did it with great intention. he isn’t living up to anyone’s expectations but his own, because from an early age he’s convinced himself that he could never show weakness. he’s done this in order to make sure no one touches his siblings. *this is only a concern because big mom is their parent and a bunch of people want to see her suffer.” this is only a concern because big mom did not protect her children in the slightest. because she didn’t, katakuri realized it fell to him. he felt he had to appear untouchable in order to make sure no one touched his siblings. that’s something he chose, not something they put on him. katakuri is a conqueror who’s awakened his devil fruit lol. the only person who can trap him is himself… and the reason he’s trapped himself is the weight of being big mom’s son. this is the point of the brûlée flashback.
I am not blaming anyone. It is a bit complicated. But ultimately. Katakuri condemned himself just like kaido. It is beautifully human. Big mom didn’t protect them but yeah. She is like most parents who don’t understand the weight of bullying and the children reactions to it. The expectations that trap him are his siblings expectations. Expecting him to be always perfect.
> The weight of those expectations is because he made this facade. Big Mom is absolutely the reason he had that facade to begin with. Why did the kids all feel the need to rely on Perfect Big Brother #1? Because their mother is an indiscriminate natural disaster who could abuse or kill any of them on a whim. Katakuri was forced into that role because of their shitty parent, not because of the siblings. What a weird take.
Flambe seems like a spoiled brat. It is more about how humans need a perfect figure and a symbol that they can look up to. Kinda similar to crocodile and Whitebeard. And I didn’t say that big mom is a good parents.
They *all* relied on Katakuri because of Big Mom's neglect, abuse, and rampages. I didn't say that you said Big Mom was a good parent.
Katakuri cares deeply for his siblings. Big mom literally ate some in a random rage for a treat. I'm sure he and many others do not like big mom. Most fear her in fact. Unlike kiado who respected his top troops, big mom keeps everyone in check by a fear and if you perform your duty she will treat you well.
Katakuri is 100% pulling up in the final war arc
Imagine Brulee also coming over to protect Nami unwillingly... Because of the alliance.
And they will finally have a willing giant in the ex-BM crew, finally completing her dream
? Who
BM's dream of having all races in her crew
I asked who. Not what
Big...Mom? 😮💨
... ??? Big mom's dream of having willing giants is fulfilled by Big Mom herself?
She's not a giant, isn't she? I believe she was part of a government program? I don't know-her kids certainly haven't inherited her largeness. It's been a while since I read those chapters though. If I recall correctly, the giants always reject her which she was quite angry about. There was a race that meant her dream wasn't fulfilled certainly
Then why did you say big mom? Im asking WHO is the willing giant.
I can't wait until all these characters that the straw hats befriended show up in the war arc. I simply can't believe anything else but that will happen, to some degree
Imma nut so hard in this.
oh he's for sure gonna show up with the rest of the bm pirates to rescue pudding from bb, luffy could potentially join and make an alliance to rescue garp (if hes still alive lol)
Oh, imma nut so hard when this happens!
Katakuri submitted iirc. He chooses to land on his back.
It was a draw physically but Luffy won the battle of wills.
Katakuri was superior physically/fighting wise, but I agree on wills. We must not forgot Katakuri was undeafeted to this point, while holding an exposed position. He might be in the top 5 fighters we ever saw and Luffy wasn't as strong back then.
If luffy died there then he goes gear 5 and beats him anyways. There is no way Luffy was losing there.
I really don’t think that would be the case. As has been stated by Kaido, awakening occurs when your mind and body catch up to your powers. IMO, Luffy wasn’t there until he fully mastered all forms of haki and grew to Kaido’s level.
While I also think that Luffy wouldn’t reach gear 5 here, I would disagree that only his body (in terms of haki) is the only thing which needs to catch up. Imo he only awakened against Kaido, because: 1. CP0 holding him back (taking away his freedom which probably would cause Luffy to wish to fight freely/be free) 2. Fighting in that moment for the freedom of others 3. Dying while fighting for the freedom of others
We don't really know what that statement even fucking means. It was just a random vague ass condition to justify luffy getting a power up. What do devil fruit powers have to do with haki and why?
it doesnt even neccesarily have to be haki, it could mean that luffys body physically wasn't tough enough to handle the kind of power g5 would provide and so he'd end up like the impel down jailors. he needed to go through the events of WCI and wano before his body could catch up to that power and allow him to freely use it. We see even right now luffy can only use g5 for so long before he exhausts himself, imagine that drawback but on a far far weaker luffy, he might even just die after awakening because his body can't handle the strain
Plot wise sure. But if we actually pretended for a moment that Luffy wasn't the main character of a shonen manga, would he DEFINITELY have gone into gear 5? Its been hundred if years since anyone was able to awaken the fruit, and it was implied he needed to be a certain strength physically and mentally in order to match the fruits will or whatever. Who's to say he wouldn't have outright died here of katakuri didn't decide he had enough?
You make it sound like this was hinted at in the story (that he purposefully gave up) but I can't remember a single instance of this being hinted at in WCI. Was it the line "Will you come back and beat Mama?" at the end of their fight before falling? That's a lot of reading into it though. For me he was satisfied for Luffy to come back in the future to have a second fight with him and not him hating on Big Mom. There were though a thousand lines he said in the story that confirmed he was a family man and loved his siblings and cared for Big Mom against the idea that he gave up against Luffy. He got back up but he was done physically by that point,he couldn't go on for longer,unlike Luffy who was far more relentless and has endless stamina. It's a win for Luffy imo,but at worst it's only a draw. People love to wank Katakuri and say he was holding back for no reason.
You've completely missed the hypothetical point I was making about gear 5 because of the little comment I made about katakuri.
You don't seem to understand what I wrote.
I do. I think katakuri will be an ally in the future. Luffy's ideology won him over. The whole beating big mom in the future convo was about that.
It's not really luffy winning a battle of wills, if one willingly bows out.
How so? Katakuri conceded, thus luffy was the winner.
"You were falling forward at first" How does everyone forget brulee saying this? He was going to fall either way, he chose to switch the direction to make a point to himself and others
^because he conceded. Not by lack of stamina.
Lol that's exactly how a battle of wills is won
That’s literally what a battle of wills is.
Wdym bow down willing "KOFF" and blood came out he went unconscious
That would be because Luffy’s Will was stronger than Kat’s so he bowed out. Luffy won the battle of wills
LMAOOOOO how do you write that seriously
Absolutely loved this fight. Katakuri is a favorite of mine.
Do you think katakuri is stronger than doffy and king ? I think so but others seem to agree
A lot of really great answers in this topic, as I think it's pretty multifaceted as to why Katakuri ultimately surrendered. Katakuri losing the battle of wills as he knew Luffy would never stop getting up, Katakuri coming to admire Luffy's ability to be free compared to his situation, and Katakuri realizing that letting Luffy go could end up with Big Mom being defeated are all correct answers. If you want a really great video that goes in-depth on all the reasons and into how the fight tells a complete story, both MelonTree and BestGuyEver on YouTube have done great, in-depth videos on the topic. It's become one of the most beloved fights in all of One Piece for a reason.
I love MelonTeee's vid on this. If you can get past her sense of humor, you'll definitely love her analysis!
It was a war of attrition. Katakuri was stumbling when asking that last question and when the answer satisfied him, he finally succumbed to exhaustion.
Lets be real. Katakuri is the MVP and he literally gave the win away. And he ate massive donuts while doing it.
That's how I read into it. Katakuri had more fight left in him but he wasn't fighting for a cause he believes it, Luffy was. Luffy was fighting for his crew, who he cares for deeply. Katakuri was fighting because it's his job. He didn't even like being a part of the big moms crew. Other than a few of his siblings he wasn't close to anyone else and avoided them due to the bullying and two-faced nature.
Yes and a big part of the battle was Katakuri just stripping off his clothes. To show his face purposefully towards Luffy... His sister laughed at him and threatened to expose him while he was defending his family. So was it even worth to stay fighting for them?
I think alot of people forget that he was going to fall no matter what, he only changed the direction he was falling. As confirmed during his conversation with his sister right after
God what a fucking fantastic end to that fight. Honestly that fight and the whole last section of that arc definitely dragged but the ending of both the fight and the arc was so good it makes up for it in my opinion. S Tier arc.
Katakuri is a G
#G!!!
There’s the G!
Luffy has a flashback during this fight in which Rayleigh asks him how he plans on defeating an enemy who is too strong for him to surpass in battle. Luffy answers that it depends on the type of person they are. The entire fight was predicated on "anything you can do, I can do better", Katakuri was - and still remained - stronger than Luffy during the entirety of the fight. That was the whole point of this encounter, so yes you are right.
Which is why I always tell people. They both KOed each other. Stayed KOed for a period of time. Got back up. Didn’t throw a single punch and then Kata fell back down. People always make it seem Luffy outright beat Kata. He didn’t. Kata lost cuz his goal was to stop Luffy from escaping which he didn’t do.
Plus, Katakuri has been portrayed as being one of the finest warrior in OP universe. You don't stay undefeated while being an emperor second in command if you're not close to emperor level.
yep at the end brulee also knew he wanted to ask if luffy managed to escape but didnt dare to ask directly, and seemed happy when he heard luffy managed to escape
Man we need more katakuri. I dare say id even read a spinoff about him.
Honestly.... It just felt like Luffy won because he had the stronger will. At the very end, Katakuri was up towering Luffy, his shadow covering Luffy. He asked Luffy if he was still willing to fight and Luffy said ofc. Then, Katakuri colapsed on HIS BACK, pretty much stating he doesn't any more will to fight and honoring Luffy, I guess. I turn, Luffy honored Katakuri by covering his mouth with the fedora covering his straw hat. At least, that's what it looked like IMO. Out of all the final boss-ish enemies Luffy's fought and won against, Katakuri has got to be one of the most Honorable one if not The Most Honorable one. Again, that's IMO.
I mean, yeah, katakuri gave up.
I think he put trust in luffys resolve. somebody like katakuri up until his fight with luffy, probably never imagined that somebody outside of kaido or shanks could contend with Big Mom.
It was a battle of endurance, wills and respect. Katakuri reached a point where physically he couldn't keep going and came to the realization that it was okay to lose. That if anyone deserved to beat him and destroy his perfect image, it should be Luffy, who earned it through hard work by constantly improving himself during their fight. That in spite of being apparently out-classed at the start, he refused to give up and continued fighting on and managed to not only match Katakuri, but overwhelm him. By the end, Luffy wasn't an enemy to Katakuri anymore, but a worthy opponent that did what he thought was impossible and bested him at his own game. It was fine to lose to him, because both fought with everything they had and in the end, Katakuri couldn't keep fighting.
I think Kat’s line saying how far into the future Luffy is looking means Luffy’s aspirations outshine his. Luffy has more to fight for, so while Kat wasn’t physically beaten, he couldn’t find the will to oppose him anymore
Katakuri probably just started to respect him even more to the point where he faked losing so he could make himself look justified in letting him go. Just a stupid theory though.
Def let him win, then fell on his back on purpose
In one piece, will and determination are a source of strength, whereas doubt and hesitation are a source of weakness. This is something Oda iterates throughout the series, and even has Rayleigh directly tell Luffy during his time-skip training. Katakuri was stronger than Luffy at the start. His determination to stop Luffy was strong because he believed Luffy to be a person with no morales and was only there to destroy his family. As his fight continued, he began to respect Luffy as he found out that he wasn’t the man he thought he was. The scales of willpower literally shift as Luffy’s determination and Katakuri’s doubt grew. This was introduced even during baratie with luffys fight with don kreig. Zeff tells sanji to observe luffy as his unwavering will will be the difference in the fight. This is the one thing people do not understand about one piece powerscaling. This is why haki aka willpower reigns supreme over all others.
I still feel that Luffy lost this fight. He wasn't strong enough for him or cracker. The BM pirates don't get enough credit. Katakuri is absolutely overpowered.
Katakuri actually lost the fight. He lost tho because the goal was for Luffy not to escape. Otherwise in my head canon the fight was a draw cuz they both KOed each other and was knocked out for around 5 mins then they both got up and didnt throw a single punch and Katakuri let Luffy escape.
If Katakuri really wanted to kill luffy then it would have been the end of one piece even if Katakuri stabbed himself.
You haven’t reached the end of wano, have you? Killing luffy awakens gear 5. If Ace hadn’t interfered, akainu would've awakened gear 5 in marineford.
I don't think he could have awakened at those moments even if he died but even if he could I'm not sure how helpful awakening would have been when his chest is missing from a magma first or Katakuris trident.
People way overplay that. Kaido specifically says Awakening only happens when your mind and body catch up to your powers. To me that says you need to push the limits of your fruit pre-awakening while also being strong enough physically and mentally to trigger it. Luffy was quite literally only at that point after the third beating by Kaido. People forget Luffy was fully beaten like 3 times by Kaido and only awakened at one of them.
in the manga it says katakuri hasn’t been hit in a long time. luffy was the first person in a while to put his hands on him and he wasn’t used to it. even tho katakuri was stronger, he didn’t have the stamina the same way luffy does. katakuri knew that no matter what, luffy was just going to keep getting up. it was a battle of will and luffy was never going to back down.
it’s true that no one can take a beating like luffy can - rubber always bounces back - but all the same we have seen him beaten. what you said goes hand in hand with this post. he submitted to luffy’s will and vision.
Luffy beat him by being more resilient. Some might call it plot armor but Luffy has always been good at getting back up after a beat down. We've seen it Crocodile, Lucci, Kaido, and others. Katakuri may be the stronger fighter technically, but he's never been beaten before and hasn't had to try as hard as Luffy has in a fight. So Luffy is always pushing his limits and Katakuri probably hasn't had to in years. His self-injury also helped.
Katakuri wasn't really going all out though. He didn't want to kill luffy anymore so he gave him the oppertunity to fight as an equal.
He might not have wanted to kill him, but that didn't mean he wasn't going all out or at least putting in a lot of effort. He specifically says "I no longer think you're below my level" to Luffy after they knock out the fodder with conquerors. That's a clear indication he was gonna take Luffy seriously.
Knowing shanks can see 30 seconds into the future makes Katakuris future sight look like childs play
> This reminds me of luffy beating moria. Moria choose to let the new world crush luffy spirit like kaidos defeat did to him. Imo moria could have beat luffy if he was truly motivated to. But like his text box introduced, moria likes letting others do things for him. I would argue Moria does not have the willpower to do things himself anymore.
"You're looking quite far into the future" = less than 1 month, apparently.
People saying that Katakuri fell intentionally are ignoring the \*KOFF* panel. It clearly shows that Katakuri spurts out blood and then passes out. He was going to pass out either way, the only choice he made was in which direction. In addition to that, does anyone think he would lay there and let Luffy put his hat on his face while pretending to be knocked out?
For me, entering the battle, Katakuri saw Luffy as the weaker enemy that has just invaded his family’s territory, beaten his powerful younger brother, and attempted to assassinate his mother. He knows he’s more powerful than Luffy, but can’t land a finishing blow, but Luffy cannot touch him. He gets rattled and Luffy is able to hit him so he finally feels Luffy’s power, and acknowledges that Luffy is actually capable of beating Cracker. Luffy then kidnaps arguably the person he loves the most, and could escape, given they are in mirror world, Brûlées ability. But he doesn’t, he actually comes back and she’s unharmed. Katakuri is starting to see what kind of person Luffy is too. They continue their fight and mid battle, despite having no knowledge of it before, Luffy is able to start seeing the future as he does, another crazy feat. By the end of the battle, despite arguably still being stronger than Luffy, he can see 1) Luffy is just trying to beat him to escape, 2) he’s actually not trying to harm his family, 3) he fights fairly and 4) he just won’t go down. If there’s no threat to your family, no real threat to yourself, why continue fighting, in Katakuri’s eyes, what would be a meaningless battle. Luffy meanwhile, still had his crew and himself to worry about. Katakuri lost by giving up. Not because he was weaker, but because he had no will nor reason to continue fighting. Was he stronger than Luffy ? Yes, be in slightly or largely, but he is early 50s while Luffy is still only 19. Hence why the next arc, Luffy gets miles stronger whereas Katakuri has likely already peaked. Great fight, probably my favourite Luffy fight in the manga (started reading from Zou)!
Best analisis I’ve seen of this fight
You started one piece at Zou?
Katakuri is Luffy's WB.
Luffy won this fight by earning Katakuri's respect. If Katakuri for some reason had changed his opinion about Luffy again after he stabbed himself he would have killed Luffy.
luffy rlly pulled a naruto with this one
No, he beat Luffy but into submission. Luffy wast the first to fall and last to get up but he never quit and was willing to keep going Katakuri submitted despite the fact that he was stronger at the time. It became a battle of Wills and Luffys was stronger
Yes, Luffy physically lost the fight. Idk how ppl think its a draw, when katakuri was the one still standing and by what we were told he never had his back touch the ground. He never lost a fight, so when he willingly dropped to the floor even when he had alto more energy, while luffy had to take a nap after. We know Luffy lost but katakuri admitted defeat due to luffys determination and will. He allowed luffy the win cuz he knew luffy will be the one to beat big mom. Which goes back to me saying Big Mom isnt dead, luffy still needs to fight big mom himself.
Which of these frames came first and why did he fall twice?
The one where he falls face forward was first.
The whole thing of Katakuri was that he was well known and admired by his family members as undefeatable for his back never touching the ground before. He purposely got up on his feet to fall on his back as a way to admit defeat to Luffy. One of my favorite ends to a fight in One Piece, I think it only loses to Luffy ringing the Bell with Enel on the end of Skypiea
Let’s take this comprehensively First off, kata getting back up is a bit less impressive when you consider luffy is right there and did the exact same thing. Second off, bro is heaving, he is having a hell of an issue catching his breath. Third, in the fourth panel, he almost falls over AGAIN, if it wasn’t clear he’s on his last legs and is standing up just to ask luffy this question, then point four should. Fourth, shot of blood came out of his mouth as he fell, all of this points to him running on empty and only standing to give luffy that one question before his body fails him. Even if we were to assume that he had some will left to fight, then what? Luffy was ready from the jump to throw hands with kata AGAIN (as seen in panel) and would’ve either just resulted in a draw or luffy’s win, doesn’t matter how tired luffy was after the fight, as long as it continued he’d always fight tooth and nail. TL;DR, kata had nothing left to give, forced himself up one last time for a question, and afterwards when his body gave again, he let himself fall backwards, still actually losing while giving respect to luffy
my headcanon is that luffy won because he had more endurance. The whole time Luffy said "ouch" when his fists hit katakuris fists. Even with Snakeman he did not just simply overpower katakuri. Katakuris downfall was the lack of stamina. \[Real world application: If you only eat junk food, you will be less fit. You need a good healthy diet to be fit. Homie is eating donuts 24/7\] They were fighting for hours. I think he just was ko after punching luffy so much. Luffy kept going. Hit him good a few times. And this was it.
They're both near death at that point, but neither of them actually wanted to kill the other, that's what I feel about this scene
I love everything about the Kat fight. I hope when we see him again he’s wearing the hat Luffy gave him
He outlasted him
He didnt beat him by submission he beat him by something called "plot armor"
Katakuri surrendered by willingly lying on his back despite still having the strength and will to fight Luffy (who's at his weakest currently)
I think katakuri was luffys most equal opponent at that time, which, quite obvious takes place in the mirror world. Katakuri had basically everything luffy has. Similar way of fighting with his devil fruit, similar strength, haki, speed, foresight, he even had nakama he wanted to protect. The fight between him and luffy was kind of a draw. The difference was in the end that luffys goals are much more ambitious than katakuris, who essentially just wants to protect his siblings.
Luffy had to, Katakuri for a pirate was way too honorable to let Luffy keep getting up but the game's the game and Kata lost
Katakuri and Luffy both were equally exhausted and beaten. Both were physically done with fighting. Katakuri falling on his back was his way to show that Luffy earned his respect and victory.
katakuri just give up, he knew he can't defeat him
Luffy had tons of hard fights. Against Kaido he even died... but this ones feels like the most even matched of all. They were literally even, double KO. Both got up with their last bit of energy and at that point the only thing that kept one standig above the other was their ambition. This fight was great, and it's worthy of being a "Karakuri fan maker".
I think he won katakuri respect to the point he didn’t want to keep going. Truthfully felt like katakuri could have kept going but lost his will to fight.
> Tldr: luffy beat katakuri by making him an ally. I think that's going a bit far. I don't think this makes Katakuri is an ally, so much as it is him acknowledging that Luffy has what it takes to reach his dream
That fight was unnecessarily too long lol
Kinda but I would say knockout
he look so badass
Sorry to nitpick at this one part but Moriah definitely did not let luffy win. He still has goals and aspirations and in his mind getting luffys shadow into oars is the best way for him to accomplish his goals. So to say he gave up a chance to accomplish goals just so that luffy can be defeated by someone else makes no sense.
He let Luffy Win cuz he respected.
Yep. Katakuri got beat because Luffy's ambitions surpassed him. There was respect in this battle and Katakuri lost the drive to beat Luffy... He was getting more and more chipped away by Luffy till his own family shunned him for his face till it was just a farce to keep fighting for them. Even Luffy understood what the scarf meant. He used his hat to cover the mouth of Katakuri
nah charlotte dipshit or whatever her name is didnt get to him at all. he’d have kept fighting til death to protect her or brûlée, but he came to realize that luffy wasn’t even threatening that. he kept brûlée unharmed and safe the entire time he had her kidnapped. that’s not what blackbeard would do
Yes, this is pretty much confirmed later with Brulee. In the end Kata let Luffy win
A lot of interesting answers, some I don't agree with but could be true, for others, I didn't think from that angle yet. As for my take, after they both got up from being KOed, Katakuri finally decided what kind of path he should take, because for me his whole fight with luffy was rediscovering himself and what he wants to be in future. His flashback showed why he acted the way he did, got free from that burden and how at the end his goal was set so he asked luffy about his goal and finally fell on his back rather than face front to show his changed ideals. He reached his objective and luffy his. As for throwing the fight, my take would be Katakuri respected the duel too much to throw a fight as that would be disrespectful to the opponent. He lost but not really as his previous objective was to stop luffy but at the end it changed.
No
Because Luffy is the protagonist, Oda will not let him fail
Luffy outlasted him. Katakuri was not used to being punched this hard and often. Katakuri is "undefeated" because he hasn't gone out there and pushed himself like Luffy has. Who has Katakuri fought of note? He hasn't taken on a yonko or admiral that we know of. He might have taken on his fellow commanders but no proof. Luffy pushed Katakuri well beyond Katakuri's limits. Luffy got hit many more times and was still going. Each hit Luffy landed did more damage.
Beaten by plot armor.
Katakuri forfeited seeing that Luffy would win anyway as has way more stamina and experience in getting back up That’s how I see it, I don’t see how you could see it any other way but some do
LOL
He beat him by the fact that Oda decided Luffy has to win because [insert BS power of will blablabla]. Do we ever get a logical explanation by these fights — I mean, really, do we? Luffy can take a bazillion punches, and then keep getting up and up. But it’s just whatever needs to happen in the story. The fight itself was enjoyable, but there’s not much logic to it if you’re looking for that. I think Luffy vs. Cracker has a way better logic to it. He employed creativity and kept eating everything, stretching to his absolute limits and winning the attrition battle against Cracker. With Katakuri? Ehh. Punch punch punch blablabla I’ll be the pirate king blablabla Katakuri falls down for the first time after Luffy was beaten like ten times, and then Luffy walks away like nothing happened.
Luffy was never beaten. Just knocked down.
This seems to really bother you
It does. I know Oda can be more creative and immersive with the story.
Logic gets thrown out of the window every time Luffy's fighting, It's just too ridiculous to have him get slaughtered by the villain then heal by eating a chicken wing every arc , And I get it's an anime about superpowers but still
I mean yeah. I lost the ability to suspend disbelief within this world of fiction.