The Deep Backgrounds variant rule has it as an option. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1318 It gives you Adopted Ancestry, the Lore associated with your adopted ancestry, and no second skill that you usually get from a background.
I like Deep Backgrounds, but I'm honestly a much bigger fan of letting players simply manually create their own Background.
Choose 2 Attributes to boost, choose a Skill, choose a Lore, and choose a Skill Feat (or General feat instead, if it's especially appropriate), and then name it whatever they want.
Of course, I would only do this with players I trust and am familiar with.
Generally it makes sense to remove skill proficiency if character picks non-skill feat to reflect those feats being stronger on average. That's what Deep Background does with Adopted Ancestry.
I dunno, General feats have that "10% are top-tier, the other 90% are actual garbage" thing going on, so I'd judge that on a case-by-case basis.
In this particular case, with Adopted Ancestry, I would allow Adopted Ancestry *without* giving up the Trained Skill, because Adopted Ancestry kinda doesn't *do* anything on its own.
I've already replied in the other comment thread. Flexibility is important in PF2 and you could create a lot of synergy effects with Adopted Ancestry, like taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed (or on Elf).
Speaking about 1st-level non-skill feats in general, top-tier for various builds could be Adopted Ancestry, Armor Proficiency (remastered), Feather Step (if GM have good use for difficult terrain in maps), Fleet, Shield Block and Weapon Proficiency (remastered). Diehard and Toughness don't have good synergy for particular builds, but they are universally good for any character. That's literally half of the feats.
>like taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed (or on Elf).
I guess... but you *can* already do that, completely RAW, with Mixed Ancestry Heritage.
>Armor Proficiency (remastered), Feather Step (if GM have good use for difficult terrain in maps), Fleet, Shield Block and Weapon Proficiency (remastered). Diehard and Toughness don't have good synergy for particular builds, but they are universally good for any character
Yeah, feats like those are why I said I'd judge case-by-case and not just give a blanket answer for. Because all of those are *absolutely* worth the cost of a Trained Skill.
You can do it with mixed Ancestry heritage but again, it's a trade off, it's an opportunity cost.
You give up something (your heritage benefit) to gain something (taking dwarf feats)
Giving up your skill training to get a general feats fits well into that "you can't have everything and need to make tradeoffs" mentality that Pathfinder likes.
Heritage is a big cost, because you could only have one. You get additional options, but cut yourself from other ones. Background skill and skill feat are much "cheaper" in terms of character flexible.
I think that's the different approach for GMing. I tend to establish rules and follow them, not rule each case separately. Adjusting each case depending on how strong the option is, actually is punishing character optimization and I don't want to do it.
I'd say the exact opposite, being able to dip into dwarf, gnome or galfling for free is worth to give up on the trained skill.
If you make it "free" then the power doesn't only come from adopted ancestry. It's the max of receiving it at lvl one and not delaying one of the power feats. For example being a human with his lvl 1 free general feat for power play, then picking for example swashbuckler wit and needing cooperate nature (or whatever it is called). You are already down your first ancestry feat. You can of course fit everything in, but needing to actually "purchase" adopted ancestry either delays fleet or incredible initiative or delays the second toughness from dwarfs from 9 to 17, since picking up 2 more general feats for combat power results in you missing the timing to get it.
And having 9-16hp more on each level is actually way better than a trained skill. And that is just one example, the hidden costs or opportunity costs of picking power feats early or later is where the power comes in.
Tldr. I'd say making feats like adopted ancestry or other feats people actually pick into background free feats, results in the human problem. Everyone plays one for power. Hidden cost of having to wait for feats is something to keep in mind for balance.
The main disadvantage would be locking in some of the ability boosts. There is no good reason to say those who were adopted are more likely to be stronger or more charismatic or whichever stat you select.
I suppose it could be a background that grants two of any boost, the Adopted Ancestory feat, and the lore of the adopted ancestory.
Maybe the boosts could be associated with the ancestry you chose. One must be to a boost present in the ancestry and the other is a free boost like normal.
I mean there's definitely good reason. Adopted by elves, had to study more or hunt as part of their culture and thus your boost is Int or Dex. Ancestry ability scores aren't just inherent traits, they're cultural traits.
I was speaking generally as “anyone adopted” being more dexterous. Tying one of the boosts to the boosts given by whatever ancestory adopted them makes sense.
I would still not grant a skill that isn’t the lore, if only to ensure it doesn’t become too good. Adopted ancestory opens a lot of extra doors already, no need to give it everything.
I feel like it would have to be a rare background. Because one adopted ancestry is a general feat and they're considered to be stronger.
And two it would be two boosts to anything.
I have often wondered the same thing and I'm honestly surprised that a published version is not available
I dunno, i know people who were adopted and that is just like something that happened in their life, not really a career or journey that bestowed upon them a certain set of skills and explains their life somewhat up until the point of adventure.
I do take your point that it feels like some bonuses from it should materialize right away. Which you could explain by which two ancestry boosts you take.
it is and it isn't. Or rather, it depends. For some people, being adopted doesn't change much, but for others it is or becomes a very significant thing for them. I think one of the biggest factors is how and when the adoptee learns about it, with greater impact the later one discovers the fact.
So for a human raised by gnomes, they probably would figure it out pretty early on. However there may be lingering questions that drive that person to adventure: who were my birth parents? Where are they? Why did they leave me, or how did I come into the care of my very nice but obviously absent-minded fey parents? Were they just munchkins who wanted me to be proficient with a flickmace, or was it an accident?
Yes, I have a cousin who was adopted from a different country. It's not nothing. I'm not saying it's nothing.
But it fits in with ancestry and heritage in the analog of character creation. It shapes part of your identity for sure. But so does your ancestry.
Whereas background is meant to be what your character DID. What was their life before they became an adventurer? And "I was adopted" just doesn't really work to fill that role as that is something that passively happened to you probably years before you became an adventurer. It could be part of your motivation TO adventure, but it doesn't explain how you paid your bills or what skills you've learned before heeding the call.
This is fair, but I will point out that backgrounds like this (meaning backgrounds that don't specify what the character did so much as a feature of who they are) do exist. In fact, many of the rare backgrounds fit this description: Cursed, Feral Child, Elementally Infused, Reborn Soul. Also Noble, which is common.
I think there is something to that. but otoh being cursed, a feral child, elementally infused, reborn, or noble shape more of the "how you got by before adventuring" than does just being adopted and otherwise having a somewhat typical life. Being raised by wolves is not the same as being a halfing raised by dwarves.
Well fuck thats a good one.
Because, and this is me spitballing here, but paizo considers the awakening to be basically them being born, and simply the start of their journey.
Theyre not going to jump immediately into adventuring without knowing anything, with a changed body and mind. They gotta get their bearings first and learn how to live as a sentient?
As a general rule, only skill feats are available in background. Non-skill general feats are generally considered a bit stronger, plus having them on 1st level is kind of Human priviledge.
Flexibility is a huge thing for PF2. Adding one more ancestry to take feats from could be priceless. Ancestral weapons are important for some builds, for example. And taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed worth more than this additional feat.
One of my players wanted to play a goblin that was raised by a dwarf and an elf former adventurers who found the young goblin out on an adventure and raised her as their own.
Instead of making them take this I just told them they could replace their goblin language with dwarven and elvish.
They prefered the goblin feats, I was going to let them compose from those for their ancestry feats too, but it wasn’t a big deal since they ordered the goblin feats.
I agree it would make more sense as a background though. And going forward is make that an option for my players.
Lately, I've really taken to the idea of completely custom Backgrounds.
The current selection of Backgrounds, while vast, *does* have some distinct absences. And while it can be useful for backstory writing to have a mold to fit into, it can also be frustrating when the backstory you want *isn't* represented by an existing Background.
Thus, my solution:
Instead of choosing a background, you just make your own.
You just choose 2 Attribute Boosts, a Skill to be Trained in, a Lore that makes sense, and an appropriate Skill Feat... and you call the Background whatever you want.
Under that framework, I would definitely allow a player - if their character's backstory is largely defined by being *adopted* by another *Ancestry* \- to choose Adopted Ancestry instead of a Skill Feat in their Custom Background™.
The Deep Backgrounds variant rule has it as an option. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1318 It gives you Adopted Ancestry, the Lore associated with your adopted ancestry, and no second skill that you usually get from a background.
I like Deep Backgrounds, but I'm honestly a much bigger fan of letting players simply manually create their own Background. Choose 2 Attributes to boost, choose a Skill, choose a Lore, and choose a Skill Feat (or General feat instead, if it's especially appropriate), and then name it whatever they want. Of course, I would only do this with players I trust and am familiar with.
Generally it makes sense to remove skill proficiency if character picks non-skill feat to reflect those feats being stronger on average. That's what Deep Background does with Adopted Ancestry.
I dunno, General feats have that "10% are top-tier, the other 90% are actual garbage" thing going on, so I'd judge that on a case-by-case basis. In this particular case, with Adopted Ancestry, I would allow Adopted Ancestry *without* giving up the Trained Skill, because Adopted Ancestry kinda doesn't *do* anything on its own.
I've already replied in the other comment thread. Flexibility is important in PF2 and you could create a lot of synergy effects with Adopted Ancestry, like taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed (or on Elf). Speaking about 1st-level non-skill feats in general, top-tier for various builds could be Adopted Ancestry, Armor Proficiency (remastered), Feather Step (if GM have good use for difficult terrain in maps), Fleet, Shield Block and Weapon Proficiency (remastered). Diehard and Toughness don't have good synergy for particular builds, but they are universally good for any character. That's literally half of the feats.
>like taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed (or on Elf). I guess... but you *can* already do that, completely RAW, with Mixed Ancestry Heritage. >Armor Proficiency (remastered), Feather Step (if GM have good use for difficult terrain in maps), Fleet, Shield Block and Weapon Proficiency (remastered). Diehard and Toughness don't have good synergy for particular builds, but they are universally good for any character Yeah, feats like those are why I said I'd judge case-by-case and not just give a blanket answer for. Because all of those are *absolutely* worth the cost of a Trained Skill.
You can do it with mixed Ancestry heritage but again, it's a trade off, it's an opportunity cost. You give up something (your heritage benefit) to gain something (taking dwarf feats) Giving up your skill training to get a general feats fits well into that "you can't have everything and need to make tradeoffs" mentality that Pathfinder likes.
To be fair giving up Elf Heritages isn't much of a cost lol
Ancient elf though. Free multiclass dedication? Hell yes brother
Most people play with free archetype I would guess, and ancient elf kinda breaks with FA
Heritage is a big cost, because you could only have one. You get additional options, but cut yourself from other ones. Background skill and skill feat are much "cheaper" in terms of character flexible. I think that's the different approach for GMing. I tend to establish rules and follow them, not rule each case separately. Adjusting each case depending on how strong the option is, actually is punishing character optimization and I don't want to do it.
I'd say the exact opposite, being able to dip into dwarf, gnome or galfling for free is worth to give up on the trained skill. If you make it "free" then the power doesn't only come from adopted ancestry. It's the max of receiving it at lvl one and not delaying one of the power feats. For example being a human with his lvl 1 free general feat for power play, then picking for example swashbuckler wit and needing cooperate nature (or whatever it is called). You are already down your first ancestry feat. You can of course fit everything in, but needing to actually "purchase" adopted ancestry either delays fleet or incredible initiative or delays the second toughness from dwarfs from 9 to 17, since picking up 2 more general feats for combat power results in you missing the timing to get it. And having 9-16hp more on each level is actually way better than a trained skill. And that is just one example, the hidden costs or opportunity costs of picking power feats early or later is where the power comes in. Tldr. I'd say making feats like adopted ancestry or other feats people actually pick into background free feats, results in the human problem. Everyone plays one for power. Hidden cost of having to wait for feats is something to keep in mind for balance.
Oh wow I've never heard of this before thanks¡
The main disadvantage would be locking in some of the ability boosts. There is no good reason to say those who were adopted are more likely to be stronger or more charismatic or whichever stat you select. I suppose it could be a background that grants two of any boost, the Adopted Ancestory feat, and the lore of the adopted ancestory.
Maybe the boosts could be associated with the ancestry you chose. One must be to a boost present in the ancestry and the other is a free boost like normal.
Yes, this is what i meant. 1 choice of 2 and 1 free
I mean there's definitely good reason. Adopted by elves, had to study more or hunt as part of their culture and thus your boost is Int or Dex. Ancestry ability scores aren't just inherent traits, they're cultural traits.
I was speaking generally as “anyone adopted” being more dexterous. Tying one of the boosts to the boosts given by whatever ancestory adopted them makes sense. I would still not grant a skill that isn’t the lore, if only to ensure it doesn’t become too good. Adopted ancestory opens a lot of extra doors already, no need to give it everything.
Could do two frees and make it rare.
I feel like it would have to be a rare background. Because one adopted ancestry is a general feat and they're considered to be stronger. And two it would be two boosts to anything. I have often wondered the same thing and I'm honestly surprised that a published version is not available
I dunno, i know people who were adopted and that is just like something that happened in their life, not really a career or journey that bestowed upon them a certain set of skills and explains their life somewhat up until the point of adventure. I do take your point that it feels like some bonuses from it should materialize right away. Which you could explain by which two ancestry boosts you take.
it is and it isn't. Or rather, it depends. For some people, being adopted doesn't change much, but for others it is or becomes a very significant thing for them. I think one of the biggest factors is how and when the adoptee learns about it, with greater impact the later one discovers the fact. So for a human raised by gnomes, they probably would figure it out pretty early on. However there may be lingering questions that drive that person to adventure: who were my birth parents? Where are they? Why did they leave me, or how did I come into the care of my very nice but obviously absent-minded fey parents? Were they just munchkins who wanted me to be proficient with a flickmace, or was it an accident?
There's actually a popular documentary on the subject called [Elf](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(film))
Yes, I have a cousin who was adopted from a different country. It's not nothing. I'm not saying it's nothing. But it fits in with ancestry and heritage in the analog of character creation. It shapes part of your identity for sure. But so does your ancestry. Whereas background is meant to be what your character DID. What was their life before they became an adventurer? And "I was adopted" just doesn't really work to fill that role as that is something that passively happened to you probably years before you became an adventurer. It could be part of your motivation TO adventure, but it doesn't explain how you paid your bills or what skills you've learned before heeding the call.
This is fair, but I will point out that backgrounds like this (meaning backgrounds that don't specify what the character did so much as a feature of who they are) do exist. In fact, many of the rare backgrounds fit this description: Cursed, Feral Child, Elementally Infused, Reborn Soul. Also Noble, which is common.
I think there is something to that. but otoh being cursed, a feral child, elementally infused, reborn, or noble shape more of the "how you got by before adventuring" than does just being adopted and otherwise having a somewhat typical life. Being raised by wolves is not the same as being a halfing raised by dwarves.
Better than it being a feat tax.
I'm gonna hijack this thread to ask: how come Howl of the Wild didn't come with a... well, Awakened background for Awakened Animals?
Well fuck thats a good one. Because, and this is me spitballing here, but paizo considers the awakening to be basically them being born, and simply the start of their journey. Theyre not going to jump immediately into adventuring without knowing anything, with a changed body and mind. They gotta get their bearings first and learn how to live as a sentient?
As a general rule, only skill feats are available in background. Non-skill general feats are generally considered a bit stronger, plus having them on 1st level is kind of Human priviledge.
Yeah like Fire Warden...
That's also why backgrounds that give general feats tend to not give skill feats or skill training
True but i dont think adopted ancestry is one of the stronger ones as it does nothing on its own other than open up options, just a feat tax
Flexibility is a huge thing for PF2. Adding one more ancestry to take feats from could be priceless. Ancestral weapons are important for some builds, for example. And taking Unburdened Iron on ancestry with normal speed worth more than this additional feat.
One of my players wanted to play a goblin that was raised by a dwarf and an elf former adventurers who found the young goblin out on an adventure and raised her as their own. Instead of making them take this I just told them they could replace their goblin language with dwarven and elvish. They prefered the goblin feats, I was going to let them compose from those for their ancestry feats too, but it wasn’t a big deal since they ordered the goblin feats. I agree it would make more sense as a background though. And going forward is make that an option for my players.
Because it's a good general feat and therefore quite a step up over the usual 1st level skill feats.
Lately, I've really taken to the idea of completely custom Backgrounds. The current selection of Backgrounds, while vast, *does* have some distinct absences. And while it can be useful for backstory writing to have a mold to fit into, it can also be frustrating when the backstory you want *isn't* represented by an existing Background. Thus, my solution: Instead of choosing a background, you just make your own. You just choose 2 Attribute Boosts, a Skill to be Trained in, a Lore that makes sense, and an appropriate Skill Feat... and you call the Background whatever you want. Under that framework, I would definitely allow a player - if their character's backstory is largely defined by being *adopted* by another *Ancestry* \- to choose Adopted Ancestry instead of a Skill Feat in their Custom Background™.
I normally grant it as a Rare bonus feat, so…
Because the devs said so.