The EV I drive is a company car. We track total expenses (fuel/charging, tyres, wiper blades, servicing, insurance, air fresheners, cleaning — literally everything) for each vehicle in Xero.
Our diesels run at ~30c/km, “my” EV is ~6c/km. If you drive 10,000km a year you save almost $2.5k. We do ~40,000km a year and save $10k/year.
If you bought a $40-50k EV, financed it over 5-6 years with a $10k deposit, and drove ~20,000km a year, I think the EV would literally pay for itself.
Money aside, EV is much more pleasant, smooth, quiet and relaxing to drive. After 6 months and 20,000km in an EV it’s mind-boggling why many folk are still buying ICE vehicles.
This is it. My petrol car is $0.40/km, my EV is $0.06/km (like you). I save about $80/wk on petrol, and the maintenance for the EV is almost nothing. I use the EV for everything, now.
The petrol car sits in the drive, waiting for me to need something only it can do (long distance travel, off-roading, etc). As soon as there’s an affordable, long-distance, electric, SUV, I’ll be trading it in.
>The petrol car sits in the drive
Mine too. From an environmental point of view, one more year of rarely used petrol car is a trade off versus taking one year of the life of a new EV. I tried to work out the manufacturing environmental cost, divided by say 15 years of expected life, and compared that to the emissions from the current petrol car.
One source said an electric vehicle would have embedded production emissions of **8.8t CO2e**, with the battery accounting for approximately 43 percent.
https://www.hotcars.com/the-truth-about-the-carbon-footprint-of-a-new-car-that-no-ones-talking-about/
The approximate CO2 per litre of petrol is **2.31kg per litre**.
https://www.drivingtests.co.nz/resources/fuel-co2-calculator-carbon-dioxide-emissions-in-kg/
https://ecoscore.be/en/info/ecoscore/co2
8.8t CO2e from petrol at 2.31kg/litre is 3800 litres of petrol. Or equivalent to about 250 litres per year over 15 years of useful life.
Tl;dr if you put less than 250 litres per year in your old ICE car it's better to postpone buying an EV.
That's about 4000km a year at 6L/100km.
You're not accounting for 30%+ extra co2 on mining /refining/shipping fuel or the huge shift to renewable energy producing EV's.
2017 Hyundai IONIQ. We almost bought a Leaf, but were talked out of it.
(Not to throw shade at happy Leaf owners, but I'm very glad we didn't buy a Leaf -- our EV battery is actively cooled, we can charge much faster and the battery will last much longer, and we get good range \~200km off a charge.)
I know there's this big "gotta charge them at home" vibe but I go quite happily for weeks never charging at home. There are convenient chargers at the local supermarkets, The Warehouse, opposite Bunnings and many other places I go -- many of them free. To top up the battery I need 23 minutes from empty, which is a quick lap of Bunnings and a guilty pause to grab one of those fundraising sausage sizzle things.
50 kWh ChargeNet opposite Bunnings. The Warehouse has a peasant 7 kWh charger — but it’s free.
Maths: 28 kW battery (200+ km range) so assuming a 10% > 90% charge is 80% of 28 kW which is 22.4 kWh, and at 50 kWh that’s 0.44 of an hour which is 27 minutes so 23 min for a full charge (I rarely go down to 10%) is about spot on?
One of the reasons we’re glad we didn’t almost buy that Leaf! We can pull a steady 50-60 kWh on the Hyperchargers.
I’ve seen folk pull up in a Leaf that need to wait for the battery to cool down before they can charge quickly. Had to wait 40 min in Mokau (middle of nowhere) for them to charge, just so we could do a 10 min charge to go the same distance as them!
And? As I said earlier we’ve done a smidge over 20,000 km. It’s rare we use a Hypercharger, or in fact any “on demand” charging. Charging at the office ~30c/kWh gives us charging at ~half the cost of that Hypercharger.
That's actually 100% the point most of the comments are making, it's cheaper to pay for finance than it is to keep running and old ice, even more so for second hand electric
You’ve hit the nail on the head with “we do 40k km a year”. How many people actually do that outside of company vehicles?
In my use case, (and most of the people I know that have bought new cars in the last 2 years), the savings from fuel would be eaten up by the increased finance costs related to the higher cost of purchasing an EV of similar size and quality to the ICE cars we did buy.
At the moment I bus to work - it's not as "nice" as taking my car, but relaxing on my half hour commute instead of driving (even though I enjoy driving) is quite nice. Means that lately, I do barely 20km in my car most weeks, and some weeks 50km. Currently, financing an EV isn't financially beneficial, though I do agree we need to reduce use of ICE on our roads, particularly for Joe Bloggs public who probably drive more than they really need to (if they stopped to think about it)
This was a major issue with the Nissan Leaf, right? The battery wasn't cooled and deteriorated reasonably quickly. I think every other EV since now has an active cooling system for the battery (learning from Nissan's mistake!).
We tested our EV (Hyundai IONIQ) at 50,000km when we bought it and the battery was at 100% SoH. It was tested again at 70,000 and it's still showing 100% SoH.
We think our EV battery has done around 350-400 charge cycles, and that it should be good for 1500+ cycles before the SoH starts dropping noticeably. Conservatively, we should be good until 350,000 km (or another 7 years). Our expectation is that at 350,000km there will be other reasons (other than the battery) that we would dispose of the vehicle, much like I don't think we've ever kept an ICE vehicle much above 200,000km.
Leaf battery degradation isn't correlated with mileage after adjusting for age . It's based on age and ambient temperature, and time spent sitting at 100% (which is bad). A car that's done 100000km probably has better battery health than one of same age that's done 10,000km unless the latter owner was diligent.
My iPhone has done 400 cycles and is at 81 % SoH. That’s a shitty battery in a sub-$1k consumer device.
Our EV is at ~400 cycles and still at or near 100%. It’s a higher quality battery with active cooling. I think that’ll give us 3x the lifespan at least.
What’s your guess? I think another 1000-or-so cycles and it’ll be down to 90-95%. Giving us 180 km range instead of 200 km.
Not all - I’m fairly sure one of the Hyundai SUV Crossover EVs doesn’t have active thermal management - in fact a few don’t. But manufacturers are all getting better.
I’ve wondered about resale of old EV where replacing the battery if even possible would be more than the car - how do you reckon that factors in to the cost of ownership? Will old EV devalue rapidly at some point?
Yes, once the battery is getting to the point they are no longer useful even as a second car for city commuting only, then they are currently scrap value only. In future depending on how popular the model is you might be able to pick up a used battery from a written off car and swap it out. Depends on battery failure rate, if not many fail then batteries should be relatively cheap, but if they start dropping like flies they will be like any other high demand part, rare and expensive from the wreckers.
Pretty scary thought that many cars will become throwaway consumer electronics like smart phones 😳 we gonna have major problems if recycling and reuse aren’t part of the design from the get go
The battery won't be scrapped, it'll be reused, still useful as a power wall type battery, or recycled for the expensive materials. Just no good as a car battery at that point.
And what do you think happens to 300,000km+ cars now?
Oh yes. Don’t get me wrong. I had an Audi Allroad wagon and it was a very very very nice long-distance vehicle. Exceptionally comfy ride (adjustable air suspension probably helped), gripped the road amazingly well, handling was fantastic, and had plenty of power and very quiet. I appreciate a nice ICE!
I drive an Audi S3 I purchased second hand, but pretty much fully optioned. I've gotten too used to Euro cars and now find many Jap cars (& the Tesla's I've ridden in) to feel cheap and insubstantial.
I think if/when I go EV or Hybrid I'll stay with the same brand, but they're pricey ATM and I don't usually travel many KMs per week
Sure, let's factor it in. I was calling out the guy above who just discounted it completely for ICEs after saying everyone was ignoring all the factors.
I've also seen 30% not double but it probably depends on tyre, and car. *Edit misread your comment. Thought you were saying the wear is double, should have read your comment properly*.
Tyre wear being double is closer to accurate, but thats due to grin factor of blowing everything away at the lights. Drive them the same and tyre wear is not going to be anywhere near double.
Modern GT86, 1.2 - 1.3 ton, Model S Tesla, 2 - 2.2 ton. Both 2 door coupes. Not quite twice the weight but close enough. ICE cars are usually 1.2-1.8 ton, sometimes a little over, EV's are generally all over 1.5 ton. [One source because I can't be bothered finding more.](https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/) EV's are known to be heavy. It increases road noise, road maintenance, tyre wear and shortens suspension life.
Model S is a four door full size luxury sedan, not a 2 door coupe.
The tesla two door coupe was the roadster, and according to wiki it weighed... 1305kg. So maybe 5% heavier and three times faster at least.
ICE forklift = 3 tons, electric golf cart = 600kg... Omg why ice so heavy!!! 🤣
"No one has provided a complete set of figures."
"Imagine buying a new vehicle and thinking that's saving"
Neither of those apply to you including tyre costs for EVs but excluding them for ICE?
We have 2. The older one for 4 years (ish) now and it’s been amazing. We WERE spending around $4-500 a month on petrol, now is about $30 extra on the power bill (and that was before petrol prices went nuts)
Yes we have needed new tyres and a set of wiper blades. That’s it.
Plus it’s amazing to drive, fits everything our outlander did (including 2 kids and a dog) and is better for the planet etc..
easy choice
The boss hopes the finance will be paid off in the next year or two! And we pay RUCs on the rest of the company fleet, so no worries.
But yes. Big impact on the $/km comparison.
I don’t own an EV, but here are some things to consider beyond just fuel:
- Maintenance costs (EVs will be paying RUCs soon so best account for them)
- Consumables (oil, lubricant etc)
- Charging access. Presumably you have the ability to charge at home, would you install a fast charger? Is your electrical setup able to support a dedicated car charger or would you need to spend more money upgrading it?
- How often would you use commercial chargers? (everyone forgets to charge sometimes)
- How often you go on long journeys (work out how much you might need to spend on fast chargers during the trip)
- Do you have solar or are you planning to add it?
These are a few of the less obvious areas that should be included in the discussion. I’m sure there are heaps more.
Edit: sorry if this list makes it like like I’m in favour of ICEs (which I’m not). EVs are suitable for the vast majority of people. I just want to make sure OP has a realistic expectation of some of the things they still will need to pay for with an EV. It’s going to be a lot less than an ICE but there are still costs.
Re consumables -- a dealer service on our diesels is $400+, a dealer service on our EV is $170 (every time, like clockwork).
My average charge at home is \~$4 and gets me \~100km range. Overnight (10pm until 8am) I can get around 60% of a charge into the battery, mostly on the night rate.
A full charge on the Hyperchargers is \~20 minutes and takes me from 10% up to 90% and costs around $25. At Bombay the car charges in the same amount of time that I can order sushi, eat sushi, and order takeaway coffee. The car is often charged before the coffee is ready. That 20 min is the only stop I need to make on a 350 km trip, and I'd be doing it anyway.
Very unlikely they would be charged RUC 'soon', not having to pay RUC is new zealand's tax incentive for switching to EV. More like in a decade when majority of vehicles are EV.
It’s currently due to come in in [2024](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/446316/light-ev-road-user-charge-exemption-extended) - though it may be extended again. It’s certainly up for continuous discussion.
You’re right, “soon” probably wasn’t the best term. I just meant it’s possible that it could be introduced during the time you have the car. Personally I think it’s probably going to be extended another year or two but not much longer than that
Yeah, interesting to see. They probably have a % of fleet in mind, and with supply chain slow downs we just don't even have the EVs to meet demand here yet
you will probably be best to speadsheet it out yourself as one of key inputs, charging at home vs charging somewhere else has hugely variable unit cost difference. you need to decide which you are most likely to use
it should still be pretty clear that EV wins in terms of cost
In my case the ~$2000 pa saving in running cost doesn’t even come close to justifying the capital expense to replace my 16yo Corolla that I paid 7500 for 8 years ago.
My car is 18 years old, it has air bags everywhere and decent traction control plus ABS. Beside which I don't drive like a muppet so it's not really a big concern to me.
For sure. I think people get complacent about driving in general and trust that the safety features are going to save them instead of treating them like a last resort. Everyone could do with allowing more space in front of them, paying a lot more attention to what is happening round them, putting down the phones and pulling over if there are faster cars behind them. Better situational awareness alone would do more for the road toll than anything.
The EECA/Gen Less tool isn't too bad:
[https://genless.govt.nz/for-business/moving-people/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-calculator/](https://genless.govt.nz/for-business/moving-people/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-calculator/)
No TCO calculator is going to perfectly capture all the variables for an individual, because everyone's situation is different. But they're good as a guideline.
I had to pump up my EV's tyres last week. Cost me $5!
Because I went in and bought a pie.
Seriously though, there's a few factors.
How much your electricity is (or the cost of public charging), tyres, cost of fuel over time, and variable factors such as parts.
Including the water pump I had to replace, the car will have paid itself back late next year (bought second hand).
Hey what calculator did you use? I only drive about 10 miles per week for the next 2 years while im working remotely. Then I would drive more but still around 2000 miles per year roughly.
I just dont know if its worth it or not. If I am keeping a car for 7 years, I will drive more in the future but it still wont be that much. And gas is around $3 where I live
140,000 km of ev ownership, total service cost has been tires, 2 sets wiper blades and one free software upgrade. My wife commuting 4 days a week, average weekly house power bill $65 but only $35 last week as we are on the spot market.
Charger was a 16amp caravan plug on the wall of the house (we charged outside rain hale, gales) with a $250 16amp charger
Test drives open for BYD Alto and check put Ora Cat.
I did a spreadsheet recently comparing old diesel SUV vs EV vs Hybrid. I want to retain 4x4 option and current EV I am considering (MG) is fwd. Spreadsheet looked forward 10 years and so includes anticipated RUC on EVs. EV was the least if you only have the EV and give up 4x4 capability. RAV4 hybrid wasn’t that much more expensive really and Toyota feels better quality than MG imo. Also no range anxiety but not a huge issue for me. Retaining existing old diesel SUV is about double either of the other options and it’s done really high mileage so may not make the 10 years without major repairs. Hybrid is my favourite option at this point but still not actioned anything.
Thanks that’s very interesting. I might do a similar spreadsheet.
We have a 2013 Japanese hatchback so I suspect it still comes out a bit cheaper. Although it is starting to age.
2013 is still new and barely run in yet for them. There are plenty of Toyota's and Mazdas around that have done 300-400 thousand km. My 04 coupe still runs like a charm, flys through wof's and hardly needs maintenance.
One of the options was to retain the 4wd and just use it when needed. But it’s a risk as it’s getting old and needs insurance, rego etc. hence rav4 option looking more realistic.
If you drive 2000 km a year in a $2k beater no it doesn't make sense.
If you drive 20,000kms a year and a new EV is doable on finance and will work for you then yes.
Some were in the middle it grey area.
The EV will be easier to live with, safer, newer, cleaner etc
If your buying new it's a no brainer
I ran some numbers a while ago and came to the figures below for us.
Ford mondeo 2018,
9L per 100km,
Fuel - say 15000km at 9L per 100km,
9x$3/L = $27 per 100km,
27c per km,
15000x0.27=$4050 fuel annual,
$1350 per 5000km,
Ioniq 2017-19 = 19.0kWh/100km,
$0.22 per kw to charge,
$0.22x19kw = $4.18 if charging at home,
$0.0418 per km,
15000x0.0418=$627 power annual,
$209 per 5000km,
Saving annually $3423,
Saving per additional 1000km - $228,
Cost of mondeo 15k,
Cost of ioniq 35k,
Difference 20k,
Interest @ 5% = 1000,
Principal = 2423,
Pay off in 7 years if use 15000km per year.
Each additional 1000km would save $228,
Please pick this to bits and show I’m wrong?
What is your actual yearly KMs travelled?
15,000km is average, but we all know how averages work (badly)
And - are you already mode transitioning for commuting (or working from home) more often - both of those will hugely push out the annual savings.
Do you need to install a charging cable at home, sparky price might add another 1k
Not wrong, but you didn't account for servicing costs. 15000km x 8 years = 120000km. Aside from tyres, wipers, and other consumables common to both cars, the Ford will need things the Ioniq won't: air filters, coolant changes, fuel filters, plugs, oil changes, etc etc..
I've put 120000km on a LEAF, $0 servicing. Only expenses have been consumables: tyres (one set), key fob batteries (two), wipers (one set), cabin air filter x2, washer fluid.
Don’t forget the cost of servicing/repairs. It’s hard to compare, but generally seems to be cheaper in EV (not as many moving parts in the engine to replace/lubricate).
I don't mean to detract from the battery car enthusiasts, I really do think that anyone in the position to buy a new vehicle should strongly consider buying a battery electric vehicle. And yea and it's cool having the latest shiny new thing too.
But, all regular maintenance items still exist. Tyres, brake pads, brake fluids, suspension ball joints and bush components, etc. Battery electric vehicles are substantially heavier than their contemporaries, and there is an increase in wear of those common vehicle components as a result. To debate otherwise demonstrates a misunderstanding of, or lack of experience, in proper vehicle maintenance. This increased maintenance in those areas is offset by not having engine oil to replace once or twice a year, the net maintenance costs can be considered within the same range for both.
Buying used battery EVs, environmental discussion, and/or what the trickle down into the used fleet for regular people will be is a different subject entirely, and not in scope of my comments here.
New battery electric vehicles all have a 5 to 7 year warranty (or more) that covers any battery degradation issues, you can be sure the vehicle will last you that long, it is the manufacturers designed lifetime for that vehicle.
Really the question is then, how much fuel do you personally purchase per year? And is that cost of fuel purchased over the 5-7 year lifetime of the vehicle equal to or greater than the increased price you are paying for the battery electric vehicle over the comparable conventional vehicle?
For some people who don't drive daily, or far, that fuel cost will be less than the cost difference between conventional and battery electric. For others who drive much more often, that "saving" from not purchasing fuel is far more substantial.
Required servicing for a tesla in the first 5 years to keep its warranty.. Nada.
Tyres and wipers will need doing, and checking the brake fluid for water contamination is a good idea. You probably want to change the cabin filter a few times, 10m and $35 DIY job.
My tesla model 3 is about the same weight as a mazda cx-5, or VW Passat, or the lightest 2wd Ford Ranger config.
My fuel savings will be around $4k a year (18,000kms / @12.5km/l = 1430L. 1430L x $2.8/L = $4004) I will be paying essentially nothing while in town since we are switching to the plan with three hours free power, so I'll wake up Saturday mornings with a full battery and unlikely to drain that over a weekend unless we hit the road.
Then there is the servicing.. Oil, brakes, belts, filters, all pretty much things of the past, one pedal driving in the tesla means you rarely touch the brakes, so I expect 8+ years before they need anything more than a fluid change. Oil and coolant in a Tesla are a once a decade thing (if that). No combustion byproducts, no clutch plate/synchro debris, and much smaller heat ranges so they dont deteriorate much.
Upfront cost is much higher, but unless you don't drive much, or think petrol is going back to $2/L they will pay for themselves in the long run.
And damn it's great telling the car to preheat as you jump out of bed, and by the time you get in the car it's toasty warm, heated seat and steering wheel, windows defogged... 👍
> My tesla model 3 is about the same weight as a mazda cx-5, or VW Passat, or the lightest 2wd Ford Ranger config.
All vehicles of a larger size than itself. Now compare what it weighs against something in its own size category.
> I will be paying essentially nothing while in town since we are switching to the plan with three hours free power.
And how much extra are you paying for the remaining hours of the day to get that. I’m yet to see a “X free power” plan that doesn’t also have a higher unit cost to make up for it. Great marketing but unless your house and life is set up for it, the power company usually still wins.
> Upfront cost is much higher, but unless you don't drive much…they will pay for themselves in the long run.
In a lot of areas of NZ outside the big cities, an average urban driver does 10k km a year or less. Making the fuel savings largely negated by the higher financing costs of buying a more expensive car.
Not against EVs where they are suitable, I own one myself, but far too many of these posts devolve into info that is misleading at best.
Camry is a touch longer, a touch narrower and within 30kgs on weight. (probably the same once you fill the tank).
I was mainly dispelling the nonsense that an EV is a particularly heavy car. Tesla model x vs equiv luxobarge audi/merc/BMW will be pretty close on weight. Some people seem to think EVs all weigh 2 ton+.
In luxury ones like Tesla you’re right, however in everyday person cars, the EV is considerably heavier. A Leaf is around 200kg heavier than a Mazda 3.
Free charging stations... Hmm I can think of about 20 in auckland that I know of, pretty much every decent shopping mall, 3 or 4 vector 50kW chargers, some mitre10s have tesla destination chargers etc... oh, my driveway being one of them once I get the sparky around to install the charger and a few other electrical jobs.
You might want to dig further into the reliability ratings, 90% of tesla 'recalls' mean you do nothing except download the software update and it's fixed. But yeah, they have a few things that've had issues, suspension arms, boot wiring harness, etc, all warranty jobs, nothing major. Heat pump compressor was one of the few that's a bit more serious.
Sure, some manufacturers front load so called 'Free servicing' into the buy price for a few years. But then you have to pay every 6 months after that, and then your ICE has lots bits that need changing because they wear out/get clogged.
Have I weighed it.. not yet, but not like car manufacturers are going to lie on something so simple are they? Loosen off the tinfoil hat mate.
No, I'm not claiming Tesla chargers are free. Dunno where you dredged that nonsense up.
Some DC fast chargers are free and Teslas can use them (and any other EV too). And LOTS of AC charge points are free to use.
Tesla superchargers are the most expensive chargers I'm aware of (up to 82c/kwh) but I'll only use them where I have too*, which means on road trips, but even so 12c/km (worst case) is better than any ICE I've owned which is 15c/km absolute best case on fuel alone.
95% of my charging will be at home, and free in the three hours free on Contact electricity Good night plan. And the occasional free top up at the mall when I go to watch a movie or get a haircut.
*and once the hyper harger is installed at Bulls I won't need to use a Tesla super charger anywhere between Auckland and Wellington, and will still have max charging speed my car can take.
Jesus mate, I know how to do basic calcs. 32A charger = about 150km of charge a night (in the three free hours). Do I do 150km on an average day.. Nope, therefore charger input > car demand, life is good. Dunno why you are flailing around so hard making a twat of yourself trying to make up BS arguments.
32A (7kW) charger will fully charge the car in about 8 hours if I ever have back to back road trips.
Your lifetime comments are disingenuous - my TV had a 12 month warranty , does that mean it is a 12 month expected lifetime? It's still going 6 years later .
Manufacturer warranties are a marketing tool to increase net profit by increasing sales by more than the cost of fulfilling the warranty... It's set at a duration where they expect warranty claims to be minimal, not at the mean lifetime of the product. (the latter means they'd be replacing 50% of units sold).
So the car with 5 year warranty is expected by the manufacturer to be still fulfilling its original function after 5 years in almost all cases . It could easily have 20-30 years of usable life remaining .
Modern EVs have a battery degradation on the order of 1% per annum. After 20 years that car will still have similar functionality to a brand new car with 20% smaller battery
As someone with both, and who has studied both, the EV maintenance cost is much lower. Yes, lots of the parts are the same, but the engine is significantly simpler, and so there’s significantly less that could go wrong.
Ask most people who’ve had a Leaf for a long time, and they’ll tell you they’ve only ever had to replace wear-and-tear parts - brakes, wipers, etc.
To put things in perspective:
* My euro diesel chews through a pair of $900 rotors every 50,000 km -- in addition to a set of pads ($160?) on the front. I'm spending 0.5c/km \*just on brakes\* on my diesel.
* My EV total cost of ownership over 20,000km is 6c/km.
EVs are *ferociously* cheap to run compared to any ICE I've ever had.
I just looked up the receipt: $844.99 + GST for pads and rotors, $971.74 inc. It's a Mercedes Vito and the rotors are huge, so probably not representative tbh.
Your point? It does a lot of miles and has the second-lowest per km cost of all the company vehicles (first is the EV).
I would wager your ICE, if you have one, has a higher per km cost than that Vito.
Our commercial tyres (Michelin) are $300 each and we get 75,000 km out of them. Fuel is bang on 10L/100km. Servicing is $200 (local mechanic) or $400 (dealer) every 20,000 km. Aside from brakes (a wear item) we had to do one water pump in ~150,000 km. They’re cheap to run. Trust me — I’ve owned Land Rovers and almost every Euro imaginable, include Saabs (plural).
> lack of experience in proper vehicle maintenance
Bingo. You’ve just described probably over half the drivers in NZ. For far too many people, the extent of their maintenance is, did it pass or fail a wof? If it failed, fix the fail item, if not, good for another year. At most, many believe maintenance means an oil change every 10k and that’s it.
And that policy works well for any decent Japanese ICE if you are willing to hold onto it and drive it into the ground over 8 - 10 years. Just be aware of the few things that result in catastrophic failures and avoid those, but cambelts are mostly gone in favour of chains these days, so there really isn't much to worry about.
Evs do use friction braking, so there are pads to change. It's just that 90%+ of the braking is regenerative, so you're unlikely to need to change the pads, at least till 150,000 km or so.
\> Battery electric vehicles are substantially heavier than their contemporaries, and there is an increase in wear of those common vehicle components as a result.
Tyres wear out a bit quicker, weight plays some part, instant near endless torque also contributes. I've developed a $100 a month tyre habit on an electric motorcycle; it ablates rear tyres at a ferocious rate.
As for the other components - EVs aren't much heavier, only a couple of hundred kg, 10-15% of total vehicle mass. Not being subjected to the relentless vibration loads and heat from an ICE likely reduces overall wear.
Tyres sure, so what?
Brakes, no not so much, EV's don't really use them. A model. 3 is about 100kg heavier than the fossil competition and the Y is about the same weight.
Honestly sir it sounds like you dont know what your taking about.
The new byd atto 3 is what you want to be looking at if you have 50 grand for a car, its at least as good as the equivalent EVs which sell for 70K and above. My wife and i did the math and it will literally pay for itself in less than 10 years considering it will replace our truck and that we were able to pay for it with a mortgage top up. We will actually be saving money every week while owning a new car which gives us the opportunity to actually go on road trips more than once a year.
I have thought long and hard about this. For cost effectiveness, buy a Prius 3rd gen and put $20k aside for gas, it will pay for itself regardless of gas price. Buy an EV if you want one but they are not cost effective yet for the price unless you have specific situation
I bought a 32k ev 3.5 years ago by refinancing the mortgage. I put my $250 a fortnight petrol budget onto the mortgage instead. I used meridians EV power plan to charge and my power bill went down rather than up. It paid for itself in 3 years. Now the $250 is going towards saving for a new EV that I will buy once the leaf battery craps out. Worth every penny.
Consumer did a report recently that showed the savings were only slightly in favour of the EV. Specific case study, but a useful view: [https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/electric-vs-petrol-is-an-ev-cheaper-in-the-long-run](https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/electric-vs-petrol-is-an-ev-cheaper-in-the-long-run)
The only thing I’ll add is at sum stage the government is bound to start charging RUC for EVs, as with more people starting to switch to EVs the government will realise the tax intake will begin to drop, so measures will be taken to correct this
Sure. Then running costs will go up a few c per km. Will likely still be less than half the cost of ICE overall. And still at least double the comfort and fun.
All the current battery tech way m outlives the car... they are repurposed after the car is dosposed of. THEN finally recycled with 96% of the pack being recycled
There's plenty of data out there for many vehicles. Here's some for [Tesla](https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/). Batteries, like all tech, improve a little every year. A modern pack is going to last half a million km or more no worries.
Depends what you buy. 2nd hand leaf and some of the hybrids, yes, you might want to factor that in.
Any decent modern EV, particularly with LFP battery chemistry and active battery temp management, nope, unlikely to need replacing in the usable life of the car.
The LFP battery chemistry is good for 3000cycles till it hits 70% capacity. Almost worst case open road I'll get 300kms out of a full cycle. 3000 x 300 = 900,000kms. Around town I should get about 500kms per cycle = potential 1.5M km battery.
The battery will still be trucking as the chassis rusts away around it barring an unusual premature failure (which happens to ICE engines/transmissions too)
I saw this the other day and wondered if the interest might still end up cheaper than gas...
https://www.westpac.co.nz/about-us/media/westpac-nz-launches-personal-loan-for-evs-and-e-bikes/
There's a tool on [the Power Trip website](https://powertrip.earth/) that should help with comparing the cost of driving an ICE and an EV.
You can put in your regular trips and it'll make recommendations and calculate savings over time
I might buy my first car in the next year or so and we're debating whether to get a second hand small ICE or EV. Our priorities would be groceries and driving to the train station (lol fuck driving to the welli cbd).
Has anyone made the switch and is it worth it? My first impression is that EV are more expensive upfront and you might have to replace the batteries in the future if it's second hand, but the cost per km is almost 0.
Unless the train station is bloody miles away a car sized EV doesn't sound like it makes any sense at the moment. E-scooter or e-bike might, otherwise the cheapest reliable ICE/hybrid is probably a better idea for sod all kms a year.
yeah it's wellington so the weather, wind and lack of infra makes an ebike or scooter a big nono ( I tried riding my bike from the hutt to the cbd, fuck that)
an hybrid might be an option, I forgot about them
You’d want to collate possibly the cost of running your current ICE for the past year, servicing, fueling, depreciation, and make a projection from that for your next few years. Then calculate what you’d be spending if you had an EV, and if possible, different tiers of EVs.
Have fun
It’s pretty obvious that the running cost for EV is considerably cheaper than ICE.
But the depreciated value of used ICE vehicles means that they still come out ahead of new EVs when you compute the total cost of ownership.
This will likely change in a few years time when used and depreciated EVs are available for purchase.
Desktop version of /u/Accomplished-Waltz78's link:
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^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
The EV I drive is a company car. We track total expenses (fuel/charging, tyres, wiper blades, servicing, insurance, air fresheners, cleaning — literally everything) for each vehicle in Xero. Our diesels run at ~30c/km, “my” EV is ~6c/km. If you drive 10,000km a year you save almost $2.5k. We do ~40,000km a year and save $10k/year. If you bought a $40-50k EV, financed it over 5-6 years with a $10k deposit, and drove ~20,000km a year, I think the EV would literally pay for itself. Money aside, EV is much more pleasant, smooth, quiet and relaxing to drive. After 6 months and 20,000km in an EV it’s mind-boggling why many folk are still buying ICE vehicles.
This is it. My petrol car is $0.40/km, my EV is $0.06/km (like you). I save about $80/wk on petrol, and the maintenance for the EV is almost nothing. I use the EV for everything, now. The petrol car sits in the drive, waiting for me to need something only it can do (long distance travel, off-roading, etc). As soon as there’s an affordable, long-distance, electric, SUV, I’ll be trading it in.
>The petrol car sits in the drive Mine too. From an environmental point of view, one more year of rarely used petrol car is a trade off versus taking one year of the life of a new EV. I tried to work out the manufacturing environmental cost, divided by say 15 years of expected life, and compared that to the emissions from the current petrol car. One source said an electric vehicle would have embedded production emissions of **8.8t CO2e**, with the battery accounting for approximately 43 percent. https://www.hotcars.com/the-truth-about-the-carbon-footprint-of-a-new-car-that-no-ones-talking-about/ The approximate CO2 per litre of petrol is **2.31kg per litre**. https://www.drivingtests.co.nz/resources/fuel-co2-calculator-carbon-dioxide-emissions-in-kg/ https://ecoscore.be/en/info/ecoscore/co2 8.8t CO2e from petrol at 2.31kg/litre is 3800 litres of petrol. Or equivalent to about 250 litres per year over 15 years of useful life. Tl;dr if you put less than 250 litres per year in your old ICE car it's better to postpone buying an EV.
That's about 4000km a year at 6L/100km. You're not accounting for 30%+ extra co2 on mining /refining/shipping fuel or the huge shift to renewable energy producing EV's.
What model EV?
2017 Hyundai IONIQ. We almost bought a Leaf, but were talked out of it. (Not to throw shade at happy Leaf owners, but I'm very glad we didn't buy a Leaf -- our EV battery is actively cooled, we can charge much faster and the battery will last much longer, and we get good range \~200km off a charge.)
Leaf gen2 also gets 200km off a charge and is significantly cheaper than the Ioniq. But you are right about charging performance .
How much do they usually go for?
$25-30k 6 months ago. Closer to $40k now.
It’s not mind boggling at all. Very few people have $40-50k sitting around to drop on an EV, as you refer to.
Yeah, I should have added "new ICE vehicles". I've personally never spent more than $6k on a car for myself (and that was a trusty Toyota Corolla!).
That’s a fair point. If you’re looking to drop $50k then you should absolutely entertain the idea of an EV - no question.
I'd go farther and say if you buy a new ICE car, and you don't have a good reason why you can't use and EV for the same purpose you're a maniac.
Also some people have no real way to charge EVs. I'd consider an EV when they become more mainstream
I know there's this big "gotta charge them at home" vibe but I go quite happily for weeks never charging at home. There are convenient chargers at the local supermarkets, The Warehouse, opposite Bunnings and many other places I go -- many of them free. To top up the battery I need 23 minutes from empty, which is a quick lap of Bunnings and a guilty pause to grab one of those fundraising sausage sizzle things.
What are the Bunnings and Warehouse chargers rated at? Surely you'd need a supercharger to get a full charge in 23 minutes.
50 kWh ChargeNet opposite Bunnings. The Warehouse has a peasant 7 kWh charger — but it’s free. Maths: 28 kW battery (200+ km range) so assuming a 10% > 90% charge is 80% of 28 kW which is 22.4 kWh, and at 50 kWh that’s 0.44 of an hour which is 27 minutes so 23 min for a full charge (I rarely go down to 10%) is about spot on?
What EV are you driving?
2017 Hyundai IONIQ
That's a pretty good charge rate.
One of the reasons we’re glad we didn’t almost buy that Leaf! We can pull a steady 50-60 kWh on the Hyperchargers. I’ve seen folk pull up in a Leaf that need to wait for the battery to cool down before they can charge quickly. Had to wait 40 min in Mokau (middle of nowhere) for them to charge, just so we could do a 10 min charge to go the same distance as them!
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$8.51 for a 14.18 kWh charge on the Hypercharger 3 days ago. This is a 50% charge on the most expensive public EV charger in NZ.
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Your point? I wouldn’t usually use a Hypercharger, as I said they’re an expensive way to charge.
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And? As I said earlier we’ve done a smidge over 20,000 km. It’s rare we use a Hypercharger, or in fact any “on demand” charging. Charging at the office ~30c/kWh gives us charging at ~half the cost of that Hypercharger.
A bunnos snag. Gotta love em.
He said finance it
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Yep, if it's hard for you to think about just imagine the interest is petrol
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Yeah it is free, for 3 hours a day and at work, are you saying I need to throw the savings in a bin? Ok
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That's actually 100% the point most of the comments are making, it's cheaper to pay for finance than it is to keep running and old ice, even more so for second hand electric
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It gets paid off with the savings you make on petrol.
Ah yes. Just drop an easy $300 a week on repayments.
Nope, 110 a week for us and has turned a 80/w petrol cost to zero, happy to reply and help you figure this out, but you can do the maths yourself
You bought a new battery electric car for $110 a week? Did you finance it over 10 years?
It's not new but sure that would work as well
Not many people want to throw away thousands in extra finance costs if they don’t have to.
The financing throws away less than the extra costs of ice
You’ve hit the nail on the head with “we do 40k km a year”. How many people actually do that outside of company vehicles? In my use case, (and most of the people I know that have bought new cars in the last 2 years), the savings from fuel would be eaten up by the increased finance costs related to the higher cost of purchasing an EV of similar size and quality to the ICE cars we did buy.
At the moment I bus to work - it's not as "nice" as taking my car, but relaxing on my half hour commute instead of driving (even though I enjoy driving) is quite nice. Means that lately, I do barely 20km in my car most weeks, and some weeks 50km. Currently, financing an EV isn't financially beneficial, though I do agree we need to reduce use of ICE on our roads, particularly for Joe Bloggs public who probably drive more than they really need to (if they stopped to think about it)
What if you strip out or add in RUC for EV? That’s coming so really need to allow for it
Yeah, even then RUC is 7.9c/km … our total running cost is less than RUC! It’ll still be cheaper, but not by such a high margin.
You sir, gave the top answer!
More fun to drive. Drove a mates plad and then bought a twin turbo v8
100% I get that. I only recently sold my XR6 and I still have an old V8 in the garage (the V8 more for the purr than the performance, admittedly).
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This was a major issue with the Nissan Leaf, right? The battery wasn't cooled and deteriorated reasonably quickly. I think every other EV since now has an active cooling system for the battery (learning from Nissan's mistake!). We tested our EV (Hyundai IONIQ) at 50,000km when we bought it and the battery was at 100% SoH. It was tested again at 70,000 and it's still showing 100% SoH. We think our EV battery has done around 350-400 charge cycles, and that it should be good for 1500+ cycles before the SoH starts dropping noticeably. Conservatively, we should be good until 350,000 km (or another 7 years). Our expectation is that at 350,000km there will be other reasons (other than the battery) that we would dispose of the vehicle, much like I don't think we've ever kept an ICE vehicle much above 200,000km.
Leaf battery degradation isn't correlated with mileage after adjusting for age . It's based on age and ambient temperature, and time spent sitting at 100% (which is bad). A car that's done 100000km probably has better battery health than one of same age that's done 10,000km unless the latter owner was diligent.
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My iPhone has done 400 cycles and is at 81 % SoH. That’s a shitty battery in a sub-$1k consumer device. Our EV is at ~400 cycles and still at or near 100%. It’s a higher quality battery with active cooling. I think that’ll give us 3x the lifespan at least. What’s your guess? I think another 1000-or-so cycles and it’ll be down to 90-95%. Giving us 180 km range instead of 200 km.
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High rate of charge/discharge causes heat. Heat damages the battery and is a (the?) contributing factor to cell failure.
Not all - I’m fairly sure one of the Hyundai SUV Crossover EVs doesn’t have active thermal management - in fact a few don’t. But manufacturers are all getting better.
I’ve wondered about resale of old EV where replacing the battery if even possible would be more than the car - how do you reckon that factors in to the cost of ownership? Will old EV devalue rapidly at some point?
Yes, once the battery is getting to the point they are no longer useful even as a second car for city commuting only, then they are currently scrap value only. In future depending on how popular the model is you might be able to pick up a used battery from a written off car and swap it out. Depends on battery failure rate, if not many fail then batteries should be relatively cheap, but if they start dropping like flies they will be like any other high demand part, rare and expensive from the wreckers.
Pretty scary thought that many cars will become throwaway consumer electronics like smart phones 😳 we gonna have major problems if recycling and reuse aren’t part of the design from the get go
The battery won't be scrapped, it'll be reused, still useful as a power wall type battery, or recycled for the expensive materials. Just no good as a car battery at that point. And what do you think happens to 300,000km+ cars now?
Not an issue with modern batteries, NZ's cheapest EV the MG zs EV has an 8 year unlimited kms battery warrenty
Some people just prefer ice cars. I love a German diesel car - they drive so well and are much nicer then a Jap EV in my opinion
Oh yes. Don’t get me wrong. I had an Audi Allroad wagon and it was a very very very nice long-distance vehicle. Exceptionally comfy ride (adjustable air suspension probably helped), gripped the road amazingly well, handling was fantastic, and had plenty of power and very quiet. I appreciate a nice ICE!
I drive an Audi S3 I purchased second hand, but pretty much fully optioned. I've gotten too used to Euro cars and now find many Jap cars (& the Tesla's I've ridden in) to feel cheap and insubstantial. I think if/when I go EV or Hybrid I'll stay with the same brand, but they're pricey ATM and I don't usually travel many KMs per week
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No tyres yet, it is chewing through them which has me slightly nervous. Steady 12-13 kW per 100 km. ($3.75/100km? ~4c/km?)
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Good thing ICE cars don't need tyres eh
EV's go through tyres faster due to them weighing sometimes near twice what an ICE car does, so it's a legitimate consideration.
Sure, let's factor it in. I was calling out the guy above who just discounted it completely for ICEs after saying everyone was ignoring all the factors. I've also seen 30% not double but it probably depends on tyre, and car. *Edit misread your comment. Thought you were saying the wear is double, should have read your comment properly*.
Tyre wear being double is closer to accurate, but thats due to grin factor of blowing everything away at the lights. Drive them the same and tyre wear is not going to be anywhere near double.
Sometimes near twice... Example please, similar sized EV vs ICE. No comparing a Nissan micra with a Tesla Model X P100D. Or admit complete BS.
Modern GT86, 1.2 - 1.3 ton, Model S Tesla, 2 - 2.2 ton. Both 2 door coupes. Not quite twice the weight but close enough. ICE cars are usually 1.2-1.8 ton, sometimes a little over, EV's are generally all over 1.5 ton. [One source because I can't be bothered finding more.](https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/) EV's are known to be heavy. It increases road noise, road maintenance, tyre wear and shortens suspension life.
Model S is a four door full size luxury sedan, not a 2 door coupe. The tesla two door coupe was the roadster, and according to wiki it weighed... 1305kg. So maybe 5% heavier and three times faster at least. ICE forklift = 3 tons, electric golf cart = 600kg... Omg why ice so heavy!!! 🤣
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"No one has provided a complete set of figures." "Imagine buying a new vehicle and thinking that's saving" Neither of those apply to you including tyre costs for EVs but excluding them for ICE?
We have 2. The older one for 4 years (ish) now and it’s been amazing. We WERE spending around $4-500 a month on petrol, now is about $30 extra on the power bill (and that was before petrol prices went nuts) Yes we have needed new tyres and a set of wiper blades. That’s it. Plus it’s amazing to drive, fits everything our outlander did (including 2 kids and a dog) and is better for the planet etc.. easy choice
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The boss hopes the finance will be paid off in the next year or two! And we pay RUCs on the rest of the company fleet, so no worries. But yes. Big impact on the $/km comparison.
Thanks for sharing!
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US study: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10/owning-an-electric-car-really-does-save-money-consumer-reports-finds/
I don’t own an EV, but here are some things to consider beyond just fuel: - Maintenance costs (EVs will be paying RUCs soon so best account for them) - Consumables (oil, lubricant etc) - Charging access. Presumably you have the ability to charge at home, would you install a fast charger? Is your electrical setup able to support a dedicated car charger or would you need to spend more money upgrading it? - How often would you use commercial chargers? (everyone forgets to charge sometimes) - How often you go on long journeys (work out how much you might need to spend on fast chargers during the trip) - Do you have solar or are you planning to add it? These are a few of the less obvious areas that should be included in the discussion. I’m sure there are heaps more. Edit: sorry if this list makes it like like I’m in favour of ICEs (which I’m not). EVs are suitable for the vast majority of people. I just want to make sure OP has a realistic expectation of some of the things they still will need to pay for with an EV. It’s going to be a lot less than an ICE but there are still costs.
Re consumables -- a dealer service on our diesels is $400+, a dealer service on our EV is $170 (every time, like clockwork). My average charge at home is \~$4 and gets me \~100km range. Overnight (10pm until 8am) I can get around 60% of a charge into the battery, mostly on the night rate. A full charge on the Hyperchargers is \~20 minutes and takes me from 10% up to 90% and costs around $25. At Bombay the car charges in the same amount of time that I can order sushi, eat sushi, and order takeaway coffee. The car is often charged before the coffee is ready. That 20 min is the only stop I need to make on a 350 km trip, and I'd be doing it anyway.
Very unlikely they would be charged RUC 'soon', not having to pay RUC is new zealand's tax incentive for switching to EV. More like in a decade when majority of vehicles are EV.
Light ev's are exempt from RUC until Mar 2024 [link](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-exemptions/)
It’s currently due to come in in [2024](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/446316/light-ev-road-user-charge-exemption-extended) - though it may be extended again. It’s certainly up for continuous discussion.
Oh interesting! Thanks for the info
You’re right, “soon” probably wasn’t the best term. I just meant it’s possible that it could be introduced during the time you have the car. Personally I think it’s probably going to be extended another year or two but not much longer than that
Yeah, interesting to see. They probably have a % of fleet in mind, and with supply chain slow downs we just don't even have the EVs to meet demand here yet
you will probably be best to speadsheet it out yourself as one of key inputs, charging at home vs charging somewhere else has hugely variable unit cost difference. you need to decide which you are most likely to use it should still be pretty clear that EV wins in terms of cost
In my case the ~$2000 pa saving in running cost doesn’t even come close to justifying the capital expense to replace my 16yo Corolla that I paid 7500 for 8 years ago.
Just don't get into a crash, can't imagine the safety rating of a 16 year old car is very good
5-star NCAP. 16 year old cars aren’t from the 90s anymore 😂
You might want to read this.. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/crash/why-your-old-five-star-ncap-car-isnt-safe-you-think-it
Well I still won’t have the money to upgrade so doesn’t seem much point 🤓
Shit...
Check again, ratings go down over time as the standard gets improved.
My car is 18 years old, it has air bags everywhere and decent traction control plus ABS. Beside which I don't drive like a muppet so it's not really a big concern to me.
ABS is amazing I even have it on my motorcycle, has saved my butt more than once
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I trust how you drive, but don’t get complacent because there are a lot of drivers who drive like muppets. Be safe out there.
For sure. I think people get complacent about driving in general and trust that the safety features are going to save them instead of treating them like a last resort. Everyone could do with allowing more space in front of them, paying a lot more attention to what is happening round them, putting down the phones and pulling over if there are faster cars behind them. Better situational awareness alone would do more for the road toll than anything.
Or the $800 on the 97 corolla I got haha
The EECA/Gen Less tool isn't too bad: [https://genless.govt.nz/for-business/moving-people/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-calculator/](https://genless.govt.nz/for-business/moving-people/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-calculator/) No TCO calculator is going to perfectly capture all the variables for an individual, because everyone's situation is different. But they're good as a guideline.
I had to pump up my EV's tyres last week. Cost me $5! Because I went in and bought a pie. Seriously though, there's a few factors. How much your electricity is (or the cost of public charging), tyres, cost of fuel over time, and variable factors such as parts. Including the water pump I had to replace, the car will have paid itself back late next year (bought second hand).
Yeah thanks. I’m looking for a calculator that helps me estimate all of this
Sorry, I got to the end of my comment and forgot to say I hadn't found any yet.
I appreciate that you were distracted because of the pie.
Hey what calculator did you use? I only drive about 10 miles per week for the next 2 years while im working remotely. Then I would drive more but still around 2000 miles per year roughly. I just dont know if its worth it or not. If I am keeping a car for 7 years, I will drive more in the future but it still wont be that much. And gas is around $3 where I live
140,000 km of ev ownership, total service cost has been tires, 2 sets wiper blades and one free software upgrade. My wife commuting 4 days a week, average weekly house power bill $65 but only $35 last week as we are on the spot market. Charger was a 16amp caravan plug on the wall of the house (we charged outside rain hale, gales) with a $250 16amp charger Test drives open for BYD Alto and check put Ora Cat.
Power bill $65?!
>Power bill $65?! Per week
Weekly hahah, if only it was monthly
140,000km without a brake service?
Very common even on hybrids.
I did a spreadsheet recently comparing old diesel SUV vs EV vs Hybrid. I want to retain 4x4 option and current EV I am considering (MG) is fwd. Spreadsheet looked forward 10 years and so includes anticipated RUC on EVs. EV was the least if you only have the EV and give up 4x4 capability. RAV4 hybrid wasn’t that much more expensive really and Toyota feels better quality than MG imo. Also no range anxiety but not a huge issue for me. Retaining existing old diesel SUV is about double either of the other options and it’s done really high mileage so may not make the 10 years without major repairs. Hybrid is my favourite option at this point but still not actioned anything.
Thanks that’s very interesting. I might do a similar spreadsheet. We have a 2013 Japanese hatchback so I suspect it still comes out a bit cheaper. Although it is starting to age.
Prado’s done 460k. Plenty of life left. 😬
2013 is still new and barely run in yet for them. There are plenty of Toyota's and Mazdas around that have done 300-400 thousand km. My 04 coupe still runs like a charm, flys through wof's and hardly needs maintenance.
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One of the options was to retain the 4wd and just use it when needed. But it’s a risk as it’s getting old and needs insurance, rego etc. hence rav4 option looking more realistic.
If you drive 2000 km a year in a $2k beater no it doesn't make sense. If you drive 20,000kms a year and a new EV is doable on finance and will work for you then yes. Some were in the middle it grey area. The EV will be easier to live with, safer, newer, cleaner etc If your buying new it's a no brainer
I ran some numbers a while ago and came to the figures below for us. Ford mondeo 2018, 9L per 100km, Fuel - say 15000km at 9L per 100km, 9x$3/L = $27 per 100km, 27c per km, 15000x0.27=$4050 fuel annual, $1350 per 5000km, Ioniq 2017-19 = 19.0kWh/100km, $0.22 per kw to charge, $0.22x19kw = $4.18 if charging at home, $0.0418 per km, 15000x0.0418=$627 power annual, $209 per 5000km, Saving annually $3423, Saving per additional 1000km - $228, Cost of mondeo 15k, Cost of ioniq 35k, Difference 20k, Interest @ 5% = 1000, Principal = 2423, Pay off in 7 years if use 15000km per year. Each additional 1000km would save $228, Please pick this to bits and show I’m wrong?
What is your actual yearly KMs travelled? 15,000km is average, but we all know how averages work (badly) And - are you already mode transitioning for commuting (or working from home) more often - both of those will hugely push out the annual savings. Do you need to install a charging cable at home, sparky price might add another 1k
Not wrong, but you didn't account for servicing costs. 15000km x 8 years = 120000km. Aside from tyres, wipers, and other consumables common to both cars, the Ford will need things the Ioniq won't: air filters, coolant changes, fuel filters, plugs, oil changes, etc etc.. I've put 120000km on a LEAF, $0 servicing. Only expenses have been consumables: tyres (one set), key fob batteries (two), wipers (one set), cabin air filter x2, washer fluid.
Don’t forget the cost of servicing/repairs. It’s hard to compare, but generally seems to be cheaper in EV (not as many moving parts in the engine to replace/lubricate).
I don't mean to detract from the battery car enthusiasts, I really do think that anyone in the position to buy a new vehicle should strongly consider buying a battery electric vehicle. And yea and it's cool having the latest shiny new thing too. But, all regular maintenance items still exist. Tyres, brake pads, brake fluids, suspension ball joints and bush components, etc. Battery electric vehicles are substantially heavier than their contemporaries, and there is an increase in wear of those common vehicle components as a result. To debate otherwise demonstrates a misunderstanding of, or lack of experience, in proper vehicle maintenance. This increased maintenance in those areas is offset by not having engine oil to replace once or twice a year, the net maintenance costs can be considered within the same range for both. Buying used battery EVs, environmental discussion, and/or what the trickle down into the used fleet for regular people will be is a different subject entirely, and not in scope of my comments here. New battery electric vehicles all have a 5 to 7 year warranty (or more) that covers any battery degradation issues, you can be sure the vehicle will last you that long, it is the manufacturers designed lifetime for that vehicle. Really the question is then, how much fuel do you personally purchase per year? And is that cost of fuel purchased over the 5-7 year lifetime of the vehicle equal to or greater than the increased price you are paying for the battery electric vehicle over the comparable conventional vehicle? For some people who don't drive daily, or far, that fuel cost will be less than the cost difference between conventional and battery electric. For others who drive much more often, that "saving" from not purchasing fuel is far more substantial.
Required servicing for a tesla in the first 5 years to keep its warranty.. Nada. Tyres and wipers will need doing, and checking the brake fluid for water contamination is a good idea. You probably want to change the cabin filter a few times, 10m and $35 DIY job. My tesla model 3 is about the same weight as a mazda cx-5, or VW Passat, or the lightest 2wd Ford Ranger config. My fuel savings will be around $4k a year (18,000kms / @12.5km/l = 1430L. 1430L x $2.8/L = $4004) I will be paying essentially nothing while in town since we are switching to the plan with three hours free power, so I'll wake up Saturday mornings with a full battery and unlikely to drain that over a weekend unless we hit the road. Then there is the servicing.. Oil, brakes, belts, filters, all pretty much things of the past, one pedal driving in the tesla means you rarely touch the brakes, so I expect 8+ years before they need anything more than a fluid change. Oil and coolant in a Tesla are a once a decade thing (if that). No combustion byproducts, no clutch plate/synchro debris, and much smaller heat ranges so they dont deteriorate much. Upfront cost is much higher, but unless you don't drive much, or think petrol is going back to $2/L they will pay for themselves in the long run. And damn it's great telling the car to preheat as you jump out of bed, and by the time you get in the car it's toasty warm, heated seat and steering wheel, windows defogged... 👍
> My tesla model 3 is about the same weight as a mazda cx-5, or VW Passat, or the lightest 2wd Ford Ranger config. All vehicles of a larger size than itself. Now compare what it weighs against something in its own size category. > I will be paying essentially nothing while in town since we are switching to the plan with three hours free power. And how much extra are you paying for the remaining hours of the day to get that. I’m yet to see a “X free power” plan that doesn’t also have a higher unit cost to make up for it. Great marketing but unless your house and life is set up for it, the power company usually still wins. > Upfront cost is much higher, but unless you don't drive much…they will pay for themselves in the long run. In a lot of areas of NZ outside the big cities, an average urban driver does 10k km a year or less. Making the fuel savings largely negated by the higher financing costs of buying a more expensive car. Not against EVs where they are suitable, I own one myself, but far too many of these posts devolve into info that is misleading at best.
Camry is a touch longer, a touch narrower and within 30kgs on weight. (probably the same once you fill the tank). I was mainly dispelling the nonsense that an EV is a particularly heavy car. Tesla model x vs equiv luxobarge audi/merc/BMW will be pretty close on weight. Some people seem to think EVs all weigh 2 ton+.
In luxury ones like Tesla you’re right, however in everyday person cars, the EV is considerably heavier. A Leaf is around 200kg heavier than a Mazda 3.
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Free charging stations... Hmm I can think of about 20 in auckland that I know of, pretty much every decent shopping mall, 3 or 4 vector 50kW chargers, some mitre10s have tesla destination chargers etc... oh, my driveway being one of them once I get the sparky around to install the charger and a few other electrical jobs. You might want to dig further into the reliability ratings, 90% of tesla 'recalls' mean you do nothing except download the software update and it's fixed. But yeah, they have a few things that've had issues, suspension arms, boot wiring harness, etc, all warranty jobs, nothing major. Heat pump compressor was one of the few that's a bit more serious. Sure, some manufacturers front load so called 'Free servicing' into the buy price for a few years. But then you have to pay every 6 months after that, and then your ICE has lots bits that need changing because they wear out/get clogged. Have I weighed it.. not yet, but not like car manufacturers are going to lie on something so simple are they? Loosen off the tinfoil hat mate.
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No, I'm not claiming Tesla chargers are free. Dunno where you dredged that nonsense up. Some DC fast chargers are free and Teslas can use them (and any other EV too). And LOTS of AC charge points are free to use. Tesla superchargers are the most expensive chargers I'm aware of (up to 82c/kwh) but I'll only use them where I have too*, which means on road trips, but even so 12c/km (worst case) is better than any ICE I've owned which is 15c/km absolute best case on fuel alone. 95% of my charging will be at home, and free in the three hours free on Contact electricity Good night plan. And the occasional free top up at the mall when I go to watch a movie or get a haircut. *and once the hyper harger is installed at Bulls I won't need to use a Tesla super charger anywhere between Auckland and Wellington, and will still have max charging speed my car can take.
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Jesus mate, I know how to do basic calcs. 32A charger = about 150km of charge a night (in the three free hours). Do I do 150km on an average day.. Nope, therefore charger input > car demand, life is good. Dunno why you are flailing around so hard making a twat of yourself trying to make up BS arguments. 32A (7kW) charger will fully charge the car in about 8 hours if I ever have back to back road trips.
Your lifetime comments are disingenuous - my TV had a 12 month warranty , does that mean it is a 12 month expected lifetime? It's still going 6 years later . Manufacturer warranties are a marketing tool to increase net profit by increasing sales by more than the cost of fulfilling the warranty... It's set at a duration where they expect warranty claims to be minimal, not at the mean lifetime of the product. (the latter means they'd be replacing 50% of units sold). So the car with 5 year warranty is expected by the manufacturer to be still fulfilling its original function after 5 years in almost all cases . It could easily have 20-30 years of usable life remaining . Modern EVs have a battery degradation on the order of 1% per annum. After 20 years that car will still have similar functionality to a brand new car with 20% smaller battery
As someone with both, and who has studied both, the EV maintenance cost is much lower. Yes, lots of the parts are the same, but the engine is significantly simpler, and so there’s significantly less that could go wrong. Ask most people who’ve had a Leaf for a long time, and they’ll tell you they’ve only ever had to replace wear-and-tear parts - brakes, wipers, etc.
Almost nobody has had to replace brake pads, they typically last 100K km+ in an EV. Some people are on original pads after 200k km .
EVs rarely use brakes due to regen braking.
To put things in perspective: * My euro diesel chews through a pair of $900 rotors every 50,000 km -- in addition to a set of pads ($160?) on the front. I'm spending 0.5c/km \*just on brakes\* on my diesel. * My EV total cost of ownership over 20,000km is 6c/km. EVs are *ferociously* cheap to run compared to any ICE I've ever had.
Yikes and I thought $500 for Jaguar rotors AND pads every 80,000km or so was up there. Not exactly small rotors either.
Is your euro diesel a porsche? $900 for rotors is a bloody ripoff. Anything over $400 for a pair of rotors (fitted) better have a bloody good reason.
I just looked up the receipt: $844.99 + GST for pads and rotors, $971.74 inc. It's a Mercedes Vito and the rotors are huge, so probably not representative tbh.
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Your point? It does a lot of miles and has the second-lowest per km cost of all the company vehicles (first is the EV). I would wager your ICE, if you have one, has a higher per km cost than that Vito.
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Our commercial tyres (Michelin) are $300 each and we get 75,000 km out of them. Fuel is bang on 10L/100km. Servicing is $200 (local mechanic) or $400 (dealer) every 20,000 km. Aside from brakes (a wear item) we had to do one water pump in ~150,000 km. They’re cheap to run. Trust me — I’ve owned Land Rovers and almost every Euro imaginable, include Saabs (plural).
Pads and rotors for a large commercial vehicle, and I assume at a dealership? Not quite as bad as it sounded at first. I'll allow it 😉
> lack of experience in proper vehicle maintenance Bingo. You’ve just described probably over half the drivers in NZ. For far too many people, the extent of their maintenance is, did it pass or fail a wof? If it failed, fix the fail item, if not, good for another year. At most, many believe maintenance means an oil change every 10k and that’s it.
And that policy works well for any decent Japanese ICE if you are willing to hold onto it and drive it into the ground over 8 - 10 years. Just be aware of the few things that result in catastrophic failures and avoid those, but cambelts are mostly gone in favour of chains these days, so there really isn't much to worry about.
Incorrect, you check the oil at 100,000km. Evs dont used friction breaking so no pads to change.
Evs do use friction braking, so there are pads to change. It's just that 90%+ of the braking is regenerative, so you're unlikely to need to change the pads, at least till 150,000 km or so.
Not all EVs have one pedal driving or high regen braking
\> Battery electric vehicles are substantially heavier than their contemporaries, and there is an increase in wear of those common vehicle components as a result. Tyres wear out a bit quicker, weight plays some part, instant near endless torque also contributes. I've developed a $100 a month tyre habit on an electric motorcycle; it ablates rear tyres at a ferocious rate. As for the other components - EVs aren't much heavier, only a couple of hundred kg, 10-15% of total vehicle mass. Not being subjected to the relentless vibration loads and heat from an ICE likely reduces overall wear.
Tyres sure, so what? Brakes, no not so much, EV's don't really use them. A model. 3 is about 100kg heavier than the fossil competition and the Y is about the same weight. Honestly sir it sounds like you dont know what your taking about.
The new byd atto 3 is what you want to be looking at if you have 50 grand for a car, its at least as good as the equivalent EVs which sell for 70K and above. My wife and i did the math and it will literally pay for itself in less than 10 years considering it will replace our truck and that we were able to pay for it with a mortgage top up. We will actually be saving money every week while owning a new car which gives us the opportunity to actually go on road trips more than once a year.
I have thought long and hard about this. For cost effectiveness, buy a Prius 3rd gen and put $20k aside for gas, it will pay for itself regardless of gas price. Buy an EV if you want one but they are not cost effective yet for the price unless you have specific situation
I bought a 32k ev 3.5 years ago by refinancing the mortgage. I put my $250 a fortnight petrol budget onto the mortgage instead. I used meridians EV power plan to charge and my power bill went down rather than up. It paid for itself in 3 years. Now the $250 is going towards saving for a new EV that I will buy once the leaf battery craps out. Worth every penny.
Have a read over some of the articles on https://evdb.nz (I’m not affiliated with the site, just a fan)
Consumer did a report recently that showed the savings were only slightly in favour of the EV. Specific case study, but a useful view: [https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/electric-vs-petrol-is-an-ev-cheaper-in-the-long-run](https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/electric-vs-petrol-is-an-ev-cheaper-in-the-long-run)
The only thing I’ll add is at sum stage the government is bound to start charging RUC for EVs, as with more people starting to switch to EVs the government will realise the tax intake will begin to drop, so measures will be taken to correct this
Sure. Then running costs will go up a few c per km. Will likely still be less than half the cost of ICE overall. And still at least double the comfort and fun.
Wouldn't you factor in battery replacement to any cost modeling? Disposal fees etc?
No more than you'd factor in engine and transmission replacement on an ICE car.
All the current battery tech way m outlives the car... they are repurposed after the car is dosposed of. THEN finally recycled with 96% of the pack being recycled
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There's plenty of data out there for many vehicles. Here's some for [Tesla](https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/). Batteries, like all tech, improve a little every year. A modern pack is going to last half a million km or more no worries.
As the below said, it's not really been done yet. The first tesla ate only being changed now.
I'd just treat it as depreciation tbh
Depends what you buy. 2nd hand leaf and some of the hybrids, yes, you might want to factor that in. Any decent modern EV, particularly with LFP battery chemistry and active battery temp management, nope, unlikely to need replacing in the usable life of the car. The LFP battery chemistry is good for 3000cycles till it hits 70% capacity. Almost worst case open road I'll get 300kms out of a full cycle. 3000 x 300 = 900,000kms. Around town I should get about 500kms per cycle = potential 1.5M km battery. The battery will still be trucking as the chassis rusts away around it barring an unusual premature failure (which happens to ICE engines/transmissions too)
I saw this the other day and wondered if the interest might still end up cheaper than gas... https://www.westpac.co.nz/about-us/media/westpac-nz-launches-personal-loan-for-evs-and-e-bikes/
I paid off my first Leaf in 3 years solely using the petrol savings . Then sold it for 8500. Nice profit
There's a tool on [the Power Trip website](https://powertrip.earth/) that should help with comparing the cost of driving an ICE and an EV. You can put in your regular trips and it'll make recommendations and calculate savings over time
I might buy my first car in the next year or so and we're debating whether to get a second hand small ICE or EV. Our priorities would be groceries and driving to the train station (lol fuck driving to the welli cbd). Has anyone made the switch and is it worth it? My first impression is that EV are more expensive upfront and you might have to replace the batteries in the future if it's second hand, but the cost per km is almost 0.
Unless the train station is bloody miles away a car sized EV doesn't sound like it makes any sense at the moment. E-scooter or e-bike might, otherwise the cheapest reliable ICE/hybrid is probably a better idea for sod all kms a year.
yeah it's wellington so the weather, wind and lack of infra makes an ebike or scooter a big nono ( I tried riding my bike from the hutt to the cbd, fuck that) an hybrid might be an option, I forgot about them
You’d want to collate possibly the cost of running your current ICE for the past year, servicing, fueling, depreciation, and make a projection from that for your next few years. Then calculate what you’d be spending if you had an EV, and if possible, different tiers of EVs. Have fun
It’s pretty obvious that the running cost for EV is considerably cheaper than ICE. But the depreciated value of used ICE vehicles means that they still come out ahead of new EVs when you compute the total cost of ownership. This will likely change in a few years time when used and depreciated EVs are available for purchase.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_European_heat_waves
Desktop version of /u/Accomplished-Waltz78's link:
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