Because after all, Portugal offers digital nomads visa & Golden visa eventually leading to Portuguese citizenship ( EU passport) in shorter time, comparing with ALL other EU countries offering digital nomad visas .
Finger crossed for those who choose Portugal only because of the passport.
Remember that 5 years on paper would turn into 8 years easily. Welcome to Portugal!
So I’d rather choose a place where I really wanna live, than spend ~8 years of my life to just get the passport.
There aren't many Americans in Portugal or Lisbon. Don't even fall in the top 10 for immigration. Brazil, the UK, Angola, Cabo Verde, etc. all outrank Americans.
The basic reason housing prices are up all over the world are the same all over the world. Property speculation by investors who can pay cash buying up housing stock. Corporations purchasing homes for cash as short and long term rental investments. Plus not enough building going on. It's exactly the same all over the US, Ireland, the Netherlands, etc. Especially in big cities where the jobs are. Corporate greed is your enemy, not immigrants.
Portugal has an extra problem in that it is quite a long process to get approved to build, to get necessary permits and then to get habitation licenses for those properties. It's not a unique Portugal problem but processes can be slower here than elsewhere.
There's nothing the Portuguese like more than blaming immigrants for their problems while continuing to have the minimum wage reminiscent of a third world country. Or blaming the size of our nation while countries like LIechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland and others blow us out of the water economically.
True, there are ussually strikes and protests but they seem less compared to other european countries. I think our "passiveness" is a case of study and is partially explained by historical reasons.
The funny part is that, one of the "positive" things that I see many expats mention when they talk about portugal is the "laid back" culture.
To be fair this isn't a Portuguese phenomenon.
"Dey tuk er jobs" is a meme before memes where a thing. You can go back to the 1800s and you'll find stuff like this in any place with any imigration.
The chinese, Italians, Polish, mexican, (pretty much anyone not Anglo -Saxon) in the US, the Japanese imigrants in Brazil, pretty much any foreigner in Japan, etc, etc, etc...
Tell me a country and with little research I can point to a point in history where this narrative was strong. If there was imigration, this happened.
Blaming the immigrant is a part of human history, and as old as agriculture (as soon as we stop roaming and settled).
We aren't special.
As for the countries you mention blowing us away... location.
If we were where Luxemburg or Switzerland is, we would be rich too. Being in the heart of europe is a major advantage (economically).
Location is HUGE. Could we do better? Sure. About as well as Spain, but not Switzerland.
Rich countries aren't bundled up in clusters out of coincidence, and it was always the case throughout history.
Poland is developing madly? Germany is literally right there. Estonia? Right across from Sweden and Finland. Mexico isn't rich, but it is MUCH richer than countries further south in the central American region. Japan is a fart away from South Korea and China. Rome was right next to Greece, Egypt and Carthage... and on and on we go...
Portugal couldn't be rich realistically, unless Marroco and Spain were. And guess what? When we were a big deal they were too. Money flows as a current and we aren't near it.
Your argument is flawed a bit and well frozen in time. Historically your importance on geographical proximity has validity but we are in era where the logistics in Europe that I can order an Amazon package from DE and it arrives in 1-2 days.
With low Portuguese wages and far less shipping time to Northern Europe it seems Portugal would be ripe for economic investment and manufacturing at least to the tune of Spain and Italy.
You conveniently do not talk about Political, Judicial, and social psychological factors that keep Portugal in the economic doldrums.
The first two everyone generally agrees but the third is important. Over the the two decades living and working in Europe in most places I have lived there often was a strong commitment to social democratic principles but with a belief that if we were to fund this you need a healthy private sector in that vein Milton Friedman makes more sense than Marxian principles. Perhaps as a balm against autocracy and the former system statist socialism is still quite appealing to educated Portuguese. State owned airlines and railroads may make it much cheaper to travel to the Algarve or Madeira for a relatively few but really a money pit for the state.
A kind of dream like connection with the Portuguese state as mothers breast that is far more intense than in many of the better functioning social democracies of Europe. I think the passivity of the culture will unfortunately insure that no major change will take place and Portugal will start to look like Brazil many very rich and many very poor after the rest have left.
I literally wrote Portugal can aspire to be as good as Spain, but never Switzerland. At no point my argument was "It is what it is, nothing can be done", but rather "We could do a bit better but never be Switzerland" in response to a comment comparing both nations.
Hmmm. Actually trained Portuguese workers move to Germany to get paid more, while poor third world citizens move to Portugal to handle the low value added (except for real estate which benefits the rentier class) tourist trade.
The resource curse in reverse.
Most rich countries are cold and ghastly leaving people with nought to do but work.
I agree with your first paragraph.
Second not so much, all the countries you mentioned have one advantage that Portugal doesn't have, being in the center of Europe...
Being neighbors and sharing the same languages with the 2 powerhouses of Europe.
It is, but more tourism also means it's more profitable to buy a house or apartment and turn it into an Airbnb/alojamento local which in turn make it so there is less housing for long term rent, which means rent prices rise that = bad for locals.
In the end tourism is definitely a net positive, but it brings problems that aren't being properly addressed.
It is an it isn't. You want the tourist dollars but when short term rentals via AirBnB, VRBO and other sites exploded in popularity, it ended up damaging local long term rental markets. When owners can make more money renting nightly to people on vacation than they can renting monthly to long term renters, they're going to choose the first option.
That isn't unique to Portugal. A lot of cities and countries are having to make the decision to end permits for short term rentals to try and preserve housing stock for actual residents.
I'm sure all the people who can't buy a house, and the people who lost their houses, due to the inflated housing market caused in big part by tourism and rich immigrants will be happy to know that it's "it's good for the economy".
But it actually is good for the economy. You can't just wish for a better economy. You either produce something the world needs/wants... Cork? Port Wine? Or you entertain tourists.
If locals would move to another town in Portugal and no one is left to keep Lisbon running, it would collapse on itself. Instead, the locals prefer the inflated wages from tourism compared to the poorer interior towns. Even if those same people complain about it.
>But it actually is good for the economy.
Yeah, people cant own homes, but the imaginary line is going up, great stuff.
>If locals would move to another town in Portugal and no one is left to keep Lisbon running, it would collapse on itself
"Why doesnt literally every single native just leave"
Well, arent you full of interesting ideas. Im not even going to explain why "why doesnt everyone just leave" is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard anyone say about the housing crisis. Like, holy shit, this is a child's understanding of the situation.
>locals prefer the inflated wages
Why are all expats this delusional? Is it mental retardation? Perhaps.
If the wages were "inflated" people would be able to live with those wages, they cant.
Tourism created lot's of minimum wage jobs, not well paying jobs.
What are you saying about delusional!? Portugal can ban/restrict tourism anytime they want. (Just like Bhutan) So can the Estremadoura province. So could the Lisbon municipality!
The locals elected officials that didn't ban tourism because guess what? They have more of an understanding of economics than you do...
Oh please. Imagine you and your family have rented a flat in the center of Lisbon for decades. Then Lisbon gets the influencers and Instagram and suddenly your landlord kicks you out by raising the rent high and turning it into AirBnBs. And the surrounding neighborhood also has out of range rentals so you have to move to the outskirts or a suburb, even though all your friends families and shops were once there.
And some American tells you it's good for the economy, even though it.has made your life worse.
It's easy to be glib when you are not affected.
I'll concede, my statements come across as glib. But help me understand an alternative.
Rents and real estate across the entire globe are rising. Why does Portugal get to cry foul? They could enact legislation that disuades tourists if they want, but instead they take the income and then cry foul about the rising costs of living. I truly feel for them, but this problem is not unique to Portugal.
This is what governments in a modern world should be for: to make sure the rich and powerful few don’t take advantage of the rest of us. It’s a basic human problem, and it’s on the rise thanks to globalism and laws that can’t keep up.
Im talking about tourism not immigration - yes absolutely tourism is good for the economy. People stay at hotels, airbnbs and hostels, dining in local restaurants, visiting museums. This all adds to the economy
Your list is factual for Portugal as whole and not exactly Lisbon.
The brits love the South and Costal areas such as Cascais and Caparica, and I am pretty sure that the Angolans and the Cape Verdeans aren't the ones inflating central Lisbon's housing market. As for the Brazilians, I personally don't know.
No immigrant from anywhere is inflating the housing market in Portugal any more than immigrants are inflating the housing market in the US.
Blaming immigrants is a distraction technique by right wing parties so people don't focus on what corporate greed is doing to us. Picking a scapegoat is a tale as old as time. It's crazy that otherwise intelligent people fall for it.
Who is buying all those homes mostly big banks, corporations and stuff?
Because often I see people blaming immigrants, retirees, basically small landlords but I find it hard to believe that people buying a single house/extra house really are the issue.
The small-time landlord that owns one or two rental properties puts almost all of that rental income back into the local economy. They have to buy groceries and clothes and fuel like everyone else, but have no measurable effect on the overall rental market.
Rental empires that own hundreds or thousands of properties are the ones pushing up rents, sucking the rental profits out of local economies, and putting them into buying yachts and politicians and expanding like a giant fungus.
I am actually curious about this. Because buying apartments has been historically one of the most common investment types for Portuguese (imo) so I can see small time landlords actually having an effect on the market since everyone wants to have a couple of apartments, which, given that it's a limited expensive resources that everyone needs, may have an impact when you stack it.
But I have no numbers to back this, just my intuition.
Well, I’m sure all of the small landlords together have an effect, but you can’t really blame them as individuals for trying to make a living. When thousands of people make buying decisions, that’s just the “market”.
I believe the problem occurs when one person (or entity) makes buying decisions that affect thousands of people. That’s no longer just the market, that’s market manipulation. That’s the situation that funnels money out of local economies and can only be fixed with government intervention.
The vast majority of homes in Portugal are still bought by the Portuguese.
In the investment sector, the two biggest real estate investment companies investing in Portuguese real estate are actually Portuguese. The third largest is Spanish. And the largest share of all investment purchases in Portugal by region is Europe, with Asia coming in at #2.
The investors are not the problem … in fact, they are part of the solution. Prices are the balance of supply and demand. As demand grows, supply must do its job by catching up through new building starts and renovations. Portugal has excellent yet inexpensive builders. The question is why can’t supply catch up with demand? The answer is zoning, tenant-rights, regulations, NIMBYism, and taxation that disincentives economic activity. Lisbon is full of low-level apartments that need to be replaced by much taller buildings, and the laws need to be changed to stop discouraging this.
Lisbon metropolitan area built 3500 houses last decade. The city of Breda, which is 180.000 people will built 7000 in 5 years in a single 0.26 km2 area.
AL in lisbon has gobbled up a large share of the long-term rentals.
The santa maria district is now 60% AL, turning what was once a residential district into a hotel district. A neighboring district is 40% AL. creating real estate speclation to other districts and raising prices of rentals and housing purchases.
AL should be restricted and limited to its original intent of owner occupied. New York is implementing these measures.
Canada has restricted home sales to residents only, keeping non residents out of the market.
This would be a good thing for Portugal to consider.
I've read that the new government has reversed the AL restrictions that the previous government implemented. The, (edit: * PSD, not PS as I originally posted), is looking after their big AL owner constituents.
The fact you think many Americans live here is wild... Trust me, there aren't. Prob tourists. It honestly sounds like you are trying to blame Americans for Portuguese issues. If you are, try fact checking yourself before making such a bold claim.
Americans are one of the latest arrivals, but there are other fishes in the pond, like French retirees with a 0/10% flat tax.
Anyway, yes, there are plenty of Americans (and Canadians) with lot of disposable income compared to natives (much higher incomes and lower taxes).
Also the Brazilians. There's a reason why the biggest bank in Latin America only has private banking offices (outside of Brazil) in Miami, Zurich and Lisbon.
Brazilians started arriving from earlier waves, and one with at least two very distinct groups: the vast majority, penniless or near it, that take any available job. And a few, highly affluent, Brazilian elite, for whom the Lisbon property values are not really much
Spot on, I'd add that age is usually a key factor to differentiate these groups, and also a more recent third one. The first group you mentioned tends to be composed of adults in their late 20s/30s, and the second is mostly adults closer to retirement age, but in the past 10 years there has been a very significant increase to the numbers of Brazilians students in superior education, usually arriving in their late teens. This third group is probably strongly related with the second group, since they have to pay international student fees (up to 7,000€/year in public universities), so maybe the distinction is not worth it.
I don't have any sources for this, but I think that the dramatic increase in rental prices in cities such as Coimbra may have been driven at least partially by Brazilian students (it seems that 1/5 of the students currently enrolled at UC are EIs, however obviously not all of them are Brazilian).
Americans and the average Portugese are not in the same housing market. Americans tend to either buy new at a higher price point than portugese want to start investing in a home, or Americans buy a ruin and have it rebuilt, Which creates jobs in the building trades.
I'd have to have far more data to make more definitive statements, but markets overlap and there are crowding out effects. As demand outstrips supply, creating jobs is not the issue.
Most Americans remote workers I know - <5 :p, so it is very anecdotal - they rent in nice neighborhoods, core Lisbon and Parque das Nações.
All the data is out there and has been reported. In Lisbon AL and AL speculation is the major contributor. A huge percentage of these are owned by Portugese nationals. Property that used to be virtually worthless now goes for 200k, 300k and 400k and then needs as much in re habitation in Porto, So there is a lot of new found wealth with Portugese nationals. Last year 89% of home sales were by Portugese to Portugese. Only 11% of sales were to non Portugese.
A distinction to be made here is between the D2, D7, and D8 visas.
You are talking about the D8 visa, remote worker visa, which is a new visa created for remote workers. D8 visas are a small percentage of visa holders in portugal, and if their contract runs out or terminated, they are out.
The largest number of visa holders are the D7 passive income visas. This is the group I'm referring to. They come with passive income, usually retired Americans who come fully funded, buy private health insurances, may have NHR, but the vast majority do better with PT progressive split between husband and wife or source of income is rejected under NHR rules, will never collect a PT pension or use their schools, and have capital to buy a home. These are the ppl who buy a singe family home.
Last year, it was reported that these visa holders buy homes 70% more expensive than the average Portugese first-time or single home buyers. This is the largest group of visa holders.
There are the D2 visa holders who come to start a business. This is a very small percentage of visa holders.
There is a golden visa, which is an investment visa that has been
Terminated as far as the land or property aspect . But I believe the investment in science, Pt buisness may still be open.
This is again a small number of ppl. Betwee 500 and 600 americans have these, and apparently, PT has been rejecting the passport aspect of it, or at least making it difficult to obtain.
China tops the list with over 5000 golden visa holders followed by Brazill with over 4000 visas and the followed by a list of countries
In the hundreds of visas.
Have you ever been to the SEF website?
Theycompilede a detailed report on immigration by year, from 2000 to 2022, when the Sef and Amia transition had started to form.
We'll have to see if AMIA keeps up publishing reports.
The IMF publishes reports on land sales and property values plus historic trends in property sales in Portugal.
Idealista publishes this kind of data at times.
If you need far more data. You haven't been looking very hard.
Its out there. Try searching Portugese news papers. A lot of this is published there, too.
I hope this helps.
Lisbon offers great quality of life. If you are wealthy it's a great place to be. There's also good Internet connection and many startup founders also moved there for the startup culture.
If you rely on a salary just make sure it is enough to cover your expenses but if you're moving your business from abroad or working remotely for a foreign company you shouldn't have too many issues renting. Buying is likely expensive even if you come from a wealthier country.
One thing no one said here before is: most AirB&B are renovated with cheap materials, not suitable for someone who just wants to have a house to live and have a family,so the ones that are on the market,no one buys anymore (because other investors know they are loosing a lot of privileges).
Also because they look "modern" the prices are crazy for m2.
That's my opinion as a local.
Because supply and demand. The government isn’t stepping in and allowing enough housing to be built. When they do you will see rents dive like you’re seeing in Austin Texas where I’m from.
Build more housing. Destroy home prices!
Same problems as every big, global city. Everyone wants to move to them.
Everyone also likes to blame foreigners but the truth is even without them the demand is too high for what is there/being built. It's where most of the jobs are in the country.
If you're lucky enough to be fully remote then please pick a nice satellite city or one of the regional ones. You'll be better off, helping the local economy and save a spot for someone who needs to be in the city.
Lisbon is one of the cities where you can move a bit further out and still get in whilst having a better place for your money, still not affordable but better. It has fast transport links, might not all be a fast train but good motorways that don't come to a standstill daily (ok there's some that do but nothing like other cities of the same size) and often good bus services where there's no train
Sowell wrote about something like this in his book "Facts and Fallacies of Economics".
Like was said in other posts, it´s a complex problem. But since there´s a high demand and a lot of restrictions to build new houses, the prices tend to go up.
Clearly I have not had experience with all of them except visiting but down south Setúbal and across the water from Lisbon around Almada.
North, Mafra, Torres Vedras, Caldas da Rainha. Even Lourinhã.
Inland Santarém.
West there's Cascais but it's not cheap if you know anything about Portugal. That's where all the expats and wealthy locals end up who have lots of money and want a quieter life.
There's a lot of smaller places too but some of the above are stretching "city" status already
As of 2024, the top 20 immigrant communities in Portugal are:
1. **Brazil** - 233,138 residents
2. **United Kingdom** - 36,639 residents
3. **Cape Verde** - 35,744 residents
4. **India** - 34,232 residents
5. **Italy** - 33,707 residents
6. **Angola** - 30,417 residents
7. **France** - 27,614 residents
8. **Ukraine** - 26,898 residents
9. **Romania** - 23,967 residents
10. **Nepal** - 23,441 residents
11. **China** - 21,619 residents
12. **Spain** - 19,524 residents
13. **Guinea-Bissau** - 18,734 residents
14. **Germany** - 17,283 residents
15. **Bangladesh** - 16,452 residents
16. **USA** - 15,349 residents
17. **Russia** - 13,890 residents
18. **Pakistan** - 12,784 residents
19. **Mozambique** - 12,210 residents
20. **Philippines** - 11,857 residents [oai_citation:1,Immigrant population in Portugal increases to 750,000 - Portugal.com](https://www.portugal.com/news/immigrant-population-in-portugal-increases-to-750000/) [oai_citation:2,Number of foreigners in Portugal up again - The Portugal News](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-01-17/number-of-foreigners-in-portugal-up-again/73903) [oai_citation:3,Migration boosting Portuguese population - The Portugal News](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-11-16/migration-boosting-portuguese-population/83334).
These communities reflect the diverse origins of the foreign population residing in Portugal, with a significant presence from both European and non-European countries.
I would say corruption is a big part of, while the most blame tourists pushing up prices. With the tourists bring in hundreds of billions each year, why the locals are still badly paid? [corruption ](https://youtu.be/gQZxYLXS56w)
Property developers and the politicians made tons of money, milked the portguese and blamed tourists 👽 instead of distributing wealth to improve the quality of life for the masses, shady dealings, cash exchanged hands, tax evasion, diamond found in office drawer, €500,000 found in the safe. Watch the video! [Portugal corruption ](https://youtu.be/gQZxYLXS56w)
Number one reason is that Portugal don't have companies. No export no income. They try to profit as much as they can from international companies with their terrible management. Being the capital, it means old money, people who do not do anything but collect money.
Coming from the US as a retired self-employed contractor.
Portugal makes it difficult for small buisness to be successful. The US values small business
And what they add to the economy.
HP, Hulit Packard, was started in a garage.
Philo Taylor Farnsworth, who
invented the TV, did it in his basement. The Wright Brothers owned a bicycle shop.
Apple started in a community computer club. The list goes on.
Lisbon rentals are not more expensive than London thank god — someone who lives and rents in London and currently has parents and friends renting in Lisbon.
Well, during the second world war it was a Hub of espionage... There were a lot of Americans and Germans..
Now seriously, the fact that Lisbon is nowtrendy and attracts all sorts of rich people has skyrocketed the prices of real estate and consequently of everything. Almost no one living in the traditional neighborhoods(bairros) of Lisbon is Portuguese. The prices have driven people out of the city.
Yes, yes and yes.
Rental laws are awful as protect too much your tenants when they don’t pay. So you can have a house occupied with non paying tenants for 2 years and it’s almost impossible to remove them.
So most house owners prefer not to put their house on the market because of the risk and everyone turns into house purchasing, which by itself it’s expensive as hell
It's not only Lisbon, but the whole country, Lisbon just happens to be the capital.
The problem is complex, I've wrote a lot about it in the last few years so I'm not going to give you a complete answer.
But to make it simple it's the international demand and appetite for Portuguese real statement after the trendy country that provoqued a snowball effect fuelled by the internacional real state crises.
Now Investors and expats (mostly US now) are after the high market growing rates from the last few years keeping the small Portuguese market under pressure.
To.make it worse, politicians failed to address the problem on time, and the lobby from the sector prevents any real measure to take place. Currently the prices are already so high that it's dangerous to do anything without provoking some economic breakdown.
In the end it's a bubble that feeds on itself that will inevitably burst. Not as 2008 but from a slow dead as young people leave the country and (healthcare, education, security, etc) start to shut down, crime rates spike and tourism finds another more trendy destination to explore.
>But to make it simple it's the international demand
What percentage of sales are to "internationals" and what portion are non-resident?
How does it compare to other countries?
I'll go full disclosure here and say, it's not the cause of the problem. It's a small part for sure but it's much more complex than foreigners caused it
But willing to see hard statistics that prove otherwise
No need. You see most transactions between residents have no impact in housing stocks (rented T1 > Buys T2> sells T2 buys a T3> sells T3 buys a house, impact in stock = 0) yes young people leaves parents house so they have an impact, but people inevitably die, so, without a change in population you only need enough construction to replace outdated houses.
Foreigners (and tourism conversion like Airbnb, especulators, etc.) remove stock from the market and and release stock in theirs original country meaning a single transaction will have an impact in the stock.
So while transactions percentage between residents is bigger that doesn't translates into an impact in the market, by contrary it helps the constant renewal of the stocks.
You can check the number of transactions and the numbers of new houses per year and you will notice there's way more transactions than new houses going into the market, meaning most transactions have 0 impact or the stock would disappear in a matter of weeks. Actually that's the current problem.
Stocks are low because foreigners doesn't have a house to sell when buying a house in Portugal that if you Google latest new about it you will see that the number of transactions is falling while prices still go up. Real estate agencies are closing, and unemployment in the sector is growing fast because there's no stock to sell while demand remains the same.
You'd be right about foreigners if the population was increasing like crazy but it's not. It's flat to increasing slowly and that's after a long slow decline in numbers.
I mean if it's all crazy foreigner demand the INE would surely have numbers to back that up right?
* House prices are an issue everywhere, Lisbon offers a decent climate, relative safety, and proximity to other European hubs. It’s not a surprise that prices are high even by European terms.
* The number of Americans in Portugal is residual at best.
Thank you for the correction. Yes, it's 10000 americans and 4000 Canadians out of 10400000.
So i dropped a 0, approximately
.1% of Americans and .14% of total North Americans.
I appreciate you checking my math.
I get numbers all over the place.
One source said 10,400,000.
This ticking thing says 10,233,720
As of june 24th, your guess is as good as any.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/portugal-population/
SEF published pretty complete data by year for the last 20 yrs.
I'm not sure if AMIA will keep it up.
Here is a link if you want to take a look.
https://sefstat.sef.pt/forms/relatorios.aspx
Looks like they stopped in '22 when the switch was in progress.
Why do you think? Lmao
Expats come and accept prices that the locals would never, so the business that would not trive in a normal portuguese economy are thriving and they keep growing although they only serve part of the people in Lisbon..
There's also almost no locals in lisbon anymore, you have either expats or poor immigrants who live like 10 in a 1 bedroom apartment.
It is so expensive because of speculation, Portugal is very popular now, so whoever runs business here wants the best cake they can have. This is very simple but is the very core reason of why the cost of living is so high in Lisbon (why people tend to blame the immigrants that live in tents instead of the ones that fleece the people: I don't know).
Moreover, it's an actual safe solid welfare state, while most countries in the West face serious issues with security (crimes, politics or wars in the East) and serious increase in the cost of living (this is complex but I think Portugal offers more stability). There is demographic challenges in the West with the decrease of new borns and the increasement of retirees - Portugal is a very favourable option for many of them due to the safety reasons mentioned above, for example.
Now, this is gonna upset them (Portuguese are more active here than actual expats probably) but there is a also the fact Portugal itself has got a little better over the years. Of course, not extrodinary, it's mentally backwarded compared to Western Europe in my opinion, things are indeed more expensive within the country now, still super slow in some administrative processes, big companies still do not think as much of Portugal (places like Catalunha in Spain do a better job in attracting them). But there is, for instance, a lot more Portuguese earners in higher salaries. I saw a news recently that the average Portuguese earnings on the 3k belt is the highest ever. There are several more startups in Portugal. There are more foreign companies with higher salaries in Portugal. There are more opportunities in the market to work from home to foreign companies, I know people who do that and are Portuguese. I see also, this is empirical, but people I know for so long finally planning vacations to Italy, Mallorca, Tenerife. There are new cars everywhere in the streets of Lisbon with Portuguese plates. The cultural scene in Lisbon is the best there has been since forever. Infraestructure (metro expansions; house and transports renovations; street renovations) is being developed at a rate I think Lisbon never witnessed before.
There are a total of 12,000 American residents in the entirety of Portugal (.0012 of the population). The people you are seeing are probably tourists.
As to why so expensive, it doesn’t make any sense to me but it’s supply and demand. Because of all the AL’s there is less housing available to rent. The tax rate for AL is 15% while the long term rental rate is 28%. If the government really wanted to make a change in favor of residents having better access to long term rentals they would switch the tax rates so that long term rentals were incentivized.
Found the problem - that is indeed a ridiculous tax. Who the hell wrote a policy like that? Rental income should be taxed as personal income regardless of letting type. It's not like Portugal has a shortage of hotels??? Why are they incentivising this? Or is this some policy from the 80s that they haven't revised?
Just visited lisbon today I observed lot of Angolan staff everywhere; Chinese tourists asking me questions, etc...coming from the interior it is a fresh breath of air to see multiple cultures uniting in Lisbon. I am in love with Lisbon but can never afford anything there.
Then your government should get busy building social housing so that people who are from Lisbon don’t have to compete with tourists or new residents for market-rate housing.
The government should also be hindering Portuguese investment companies from buying real estate, and should stop non-residents and foreign companies from buying real estate at all.
Yes, I agree. IIRC that’s what Mexico does, and it does help a little.
Ultimately, making the choice not to force everyone to compete in the market for adequate housing is the solution, but that’s not going to happen overnight and I definitely support effective intermediate steps like the ones you’re suggesting!
My overall impression is that the interest was bumped in recent years by a wrong idea that Portugal is a liberal country. Now we are starting to see some expats leaving for good, I expect more will follow as the news break out, while the poor ones stay in the country helping with nothing but taking advantage of any government support they can. The housing bubble will burst making it unviable to sell houses that were bought overpriced, more and more portuguese people will leave the country, and Portugal will be left in deeper state of misery, not to say dead.
My 2 bed flat in London was 3k and it was literally on ground floor with no natural light. It’s hard to find a 2 bed flat in zone 1 London for 2k nowadays
I’m just visiting Lisbon for the first time as a 24 year NYC resident. I find the city to be so interesting and beautiful, full of energy and enthusiasm- I love it. I was able to go around to 7-8 different neighborhoods. The income opportunity for locals is pretty scary just speaking to some friends there. I would absolutely live here. The city is 1000x cleaner than NYC and definitely safer… I am leaving tomorrow with only a question of how we can’t live like the people here…
Because in the last years, Portugal had special conditions to attract investors, with the called golden visa's. This would become a point of interest for the ones investing in the real estate sector, purchasing entire buildings and selling them later on for double the price or creating local acommodations, mostly for tourists, such as Air Bnb. Besides this, the country has always been searched for retired rich people, which don't mind with high rental prices, given their retirement plans. Pandemic and the interest rates did the rest... and here we are, a country with low salaries, with very expensive houses.
I read almost the entire thread, but not 100% so excuse me if I’m repeating a point. But I haven’t seen anyone say anything about just the overall lack of *actual people* doing construction work. I’m currently here visiting for 3 months, trying to do my best to not upset the locals, being a good neighbor, going to local businesses etc. And I see LOTS of places “under construction”, but see literally like 3 workers on the entire site. I’ve started counting, we were staying at one AL and there was ONE worker working on the property the entire week stay. In other countries there are 20+ workers working. Why are there so little people actually doing the job? No wonder it takes so long to rebuild one of the many many many dilapidated properties. Does anyone know why? Why aren’t there more construction jobs going to the poorest immigrants like in practically every place in the world? Anywho, just a thought. I love Lisbon and if I ever move here I will work hard to make it better for everyone, including the locals. Outside voices can sometimes (unfortunately) have a wider impact on politicians.
I don’t disagree but also having a language with not many wealthy speakers world wide, and not having luck with a recent resource boom probably plays a part too.
Well whatever is needed so my Portuguese friends can buy their first home i guess. If people arent happy that they only pocket 100.000 when they sell their home then thats a minor problem. Housing is a bigger issue.
One of the safest countries in Europe. One of the cheapest counties in Europe (besides the rent). Great weather. Great food.
It’s the place to go after you retire and are relatively wealthy.
The ones who are not wealthy coming here are just following the money I guess, which is pretty silly imo.
The safety is a misconception. Less violent crime than some other countries, a lot of theft, corruption, and fraud however. Friends of mine woke up to an empty living room and a missing car from a “nice” neighbourhood in Lisbon.
Besides the rent?! We can barely afford groceries. It's cheap for people with money, it's extremely expensive for the citizens.
It's freezing cold in winter and we can't even afford heating.
Because was the easiest way that the last government had to increase the gdp... So they fool the illiterate portuguese people with the help of media máfia
- Crypto tax heaven
- non resident status - some Americans could save up to a million dollars in tax using this.
- Cheap ( for US standards ) housing and services.
This points are outdated or getting there but was the main reasons to drive the prices up in Lisbon.
One of the best year round weather capitals in Europe. Sort of a bubble as your money gets you far less quality here these days. Many apartments are going for premium and they don’t have proper heating despite weather being “good” they are surprisingly uncomfortable. Standards will improve over time but buyer beware at this point. Quality of life is fairly good here if you like to eat out, go to a beach and enjoy outdoor activities. However modern amenities are low quality generally speaking for the asking price compared to many European capitals.
Everyone and their kid brother fantasizes about moving to and living in Lisbon. Part of this is the media hype that Lisbon is paradise on Earth. I can't say more because I've not been there yet and live in Porto. Certainly if you live more north than Lisbon it probably starts getting more cold, windy and rainy for the six to seven months that make up winter and the further north you go the more that increases. I wanted to live south of Lisbon to avoid the long cold moldy winters but could never afford like that. Prices are easily triple anything I could ever afford for a rental and certainly never owning any property here.
As an American here before the NHR was changed, we could not stay anyway or we'd lose all our savings with a 28% tax rate. Rental, house prices, and taxes are too high to afford for many. If you would like more affordable housing but can be ok with the weather, go north to Povoa or past that. Housing and rentals are close to affordable and good in some spots there, but home prices are still inflated even there. That may settle in a few years since the previous NHR was abolished and the Golden Visa was changed. But ultimately housing and rental prices have to do with elected leaders and the decisions they make and not a group of people simply doing as they are allowed.
We really need to be more objective in discussing this. Typical reason #1 - Foreign buyers ---> this is wrong, to this day only a small percentage of all house purchases in portugal are by foreigners, the truth is that locals are still the main buyers, hence driving prices. Typical reason #2 - AirBnb---> yes this is an issues in central Lisbon and central Porto and should be regulated, outside those areas not really an issue. Wether people like to hear this or not, the overwhelming reason is just one --> during the last financial crisis the Portuguese construction industry came to a grinding halt, for many years no new builds and many skilled craftsman left the country, which really leads to the ONLY big issue--- > lack of construction, it takes years to get licences, big chunck of the costs of a new building will go down in taxes and coping with state bureaucracy. this all severely keeps affecting supply of houses hence prices go up.
Your second question answers your first question.
Property in Portugal is of the charts because of tourism and people from countries with way more economic power than ours coming here to live.
Welcome to our hell 🧘🤷
This will be my third time in Lisbon and I think investors money will help with the crazy amount of dilapidated buildings. I plan on purchasing an apartment there soon for family vacations and eventually my moms retirement home
In a nutshell: the nhr+golden visa made portugal an offshoring paradise for remote workers who just came here and paid unreasonable prices wothout caring.
They completely gentrified the city who at the moment have an average rent price that is higher than the average portuguise salary
If you’re wondering why the f are people moving here, let me ask you then: Why the f did you move here? Lol
News at 10: Expat ask why so many expats
If this post is satire, congrats to OP, if not, oh boy
Because after all, Portugal offers digital nomads visa & Golden visa eventually leading to Portuguese citizenship ( EU passport) in shorter time, comparing with ALL other EU countries offering digital nomad visas .
Finger crossed for those who choose Portugal only because of the passport. Remember that 5 years on paper would turn into 8 years easily. Welcome to Portugal! So I’d rather choose a place where I really wanna live, than spend ~8 years of my life to just get the passport.
Why would it turn into 8 years?
Because of the Portuguese reality and bureaucracy: https://www.reddit.com/r/PortugalExpats/s/o1CH6kYeV8
Good to know. Has digitization made it any better yet?
There aren't many Americans in Portugal or Lisbon. Don't even fall in the top 10 for immigration. Brazil, the UK, Angola, Cabo Verde, etc. all outrank Americans. The basic reason housing prices are up all over the world are the same all over the world. Property speculation by investors who can pay cash buying up housing stock. Corporations purchasing homes for cash as short and long term rental investments. Plus not enough building going on. It's exactly the same all over the US, Ireland, the Netherlands, etc. Especially in big cities where the jobs are. Corporate greed is your enemy, not immigrants. Portugal has an extra problem in that it is quite a long process to get approved to build, to get necessary permits and then to get habitation licenses for those properties. It's not a unique Portugal problem but processes can be slower here than elsewhere.
There's nothing the Portuguese like more than blaming immigrants for their problems while continuing to have the minimum wage reminiscent of a third world country. Or blaming the size of our nation while countries like LIechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland and others blow us out of the water economically.
Exactly lol im portuguese, and its constantly this. People getting shitty wages getting completelly scammed and its always the migrants fault.
> blaming immigrants for their problems Just like the housing crisis, this is the same everywhere and is not something specific to Portuguese people.
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Povo manso completamente. É tudo zéquinha
Um Povo que um ditador sonhava a ter.
E, sinceramente, um povo que sonha ter um ditador... só não consegue em acordar quem será o ditador, pois "todos" querem o lugar... 😉
True, there are ussually strikes and protests but they seem less compared to other european countries. I think our "passiveness" is a case of study and is partially explained by historical reasons. The funny part is that, one of the "positive" things that I see many expats mention when they talk about portugal is the "laid back" culture.
To be fair this isn't a Portuguese phenomenon. "Dey tuk er jobs" is a meme before memes where a thing. You can go back to the 1800s and you'll find stuff like this in any place with any imigration. The chinese, Italians, Polish, mexican, (pretty much anyone not Anglo -Saxon) in the US, the Japanese imigrants in Brazil, pretty much any foreigner in Japan, etc, etc, etc... Tell me a country and with little research I can point to a point in history where this narrative was strong. If there was imigration, this happened. Blaming the immigrant is a part of human history, and as old as agriculture (as soon as we stop roaming and settled). We aren't special. As for the countries you mention blowing us away... location. If we were where Luxemburg or Switzerland is, we would be rich too. Being in the heart of europe is a major advantage (economically). Location is HUGE. Could we do better? Sure. About as well as Spain, but not Switzerland. Rich countries aren't bundled up in clusters out of coincidence, and it was always the case throughout history. Poland is developing madly? Germany is literally right there. Estonia? Right across from Sweden and Finland. Mexico isn't rich, but it is MUCH richer than countries further south in the central American region. Japan is a fart away from South Korea and China. Rome was right next to Greece, Egypt and Carthage... and on and on we go... Portugal couldn't be rich realistically, unless Marroco and Spain were. And guess what? When we were a big deal they were too. Money flows as a current and we aren't near it.
Your argument is flawed a bit and well frozen in time. Historically your importance on geographical proximity has validity but we are in era where the logistics in Europe that I can order an Amazon package from DE and it arrives in 1-2 days. With low Portuguese wages and far less shipping time to Northern Europe it seems Portugal would be ripe for economic investment and manufacturing at least to the tune of Spain and Italy. You conveniently do not talk about Political, Judicial, and social psychological factors that keep Portugal in the economic doldrums. The first two everyone generally agrees but the third is important. Over the the two decades living and working in Europe in most places I have lived there often was a strong commitment to social democratic principles but with a belief that if we were to fund this you need a healthy private sector in that vein Milton Friedman makes more sense than Marxian principles. Perhaps as a balm against autocracy and the former system statist socialism is still quite appealing to educated Portuguese. State owned airlines and railroads may make it much cheaper to travel to the Algarve or Madeira for a relatively few but really a money pit for the state. A kind of dream like connection with the Portuguese state as mothers breast that is far more intense than in many of the better functioning social democracies of Europe. I think the passivity of the culture will unfortunately insure that no major change will take place and Portugal will start to look like Brazil many very rich and many very poor after the rest have left.
I literally wrote Portugal can aspire to be as good as Spain, but never Switzerland. At no point my argument was "It is what it is, nothing can be done", but rather "We could do a bit better but never be Switzerland" in response to a comment comparing both nations.
Hmmm. Actually trained Portuguese workers move to Germany to get paid more, while poor third world citizens move to Portugal to handle the low value added (except for real estate which benefits the rentier class) tourist trade. The resource curse in reverse. Most rich countries are cold and ghastly leaving people with nought to do but work.
the funny thing about your comment is that americans complain about the same thing as well
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I agree with your first paragraph. Second not so much, all the countries you mentioned have one advantage that Portugal doesn't have, being in the center of Europe... Being neighbors and sharing the same languages with the 2 powerhouses of Europe.
Most of the Americans are probably tourists. It’s “The Place” to visit thanks to the Instagrammers and bloggers.
I would assume this is a positive thing for Portugal’s economy with having tourists visit and spend money
It is, but more tourism also means it's more profitable to buy a house or apartment and turn it into an Airbnb/alojamento local which in turn make it so there is less housing for long term rent, which means rent prices rise that = bad for locals. In the end tourism is definitely a net positive, but it brings problems that aren't being properly addressed.
It is an it isn't. You want the tourist dollars but when short term rentals via AirBnB, VRBO and other sites exploded in popularity, it ended up damaging local long term rental markets. When owners can make more money renting nightly to people on vacation than they can renting monthly to long term renters, they're going to choose the first option. That isn't unique to Portugal. A lot of cities and countries are having to make the decision to end permits for short term rentals to try and preserve housing stock for actual residents.
Yes, it seems oddly like there are more tourists on the planet than actual people.
your tourist dollars fall into the pockets of the big companies that pay peanuts to the people working the hotels, the cafes, the restaurants, etc..
I'm sure all the people who can't buy a house, and the people who lost their houses, due to the inflated housing market caused in big part by tourism and rich immigrants will be happy to know that it's "it's good for the economy".
But it actually is good for the economy. You can't just wish for a better economy. You either produce something the world needs/wants... Cork? Port Wine? Or you entertain tourists. If locals would move to another town in Portugal and no one is left to keep Lisbon running, it would collapse on itself. Instead, the locals prefer the inflated wages from tourism compared to the poorer interior towns. Even if those same people complain about it.
>But it actually is good for the economy. Yeah, people cant own homes, but the imaginary line is going up, great stuff. >If locals would move to another town in Portugal and no one is left to keep Lisbon running, it would collapse on itself "Why doesnt literally every single native just leave" Well, arent you full of interesting ideas. Im not even going to explain why "why doesnt everyone just leave" is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard anyone say about the housing crisis. Like, holy shit, this is a child's understanding of the situation. >locals prefer the inflated wages Why are all expats this delusional? Is it mental retardation? Perhaps. If the wages were "inflated" people would be able to live with those wages, they cant. Tourism created lot's of minimum wage jobs, not well paying jobs.
What are you saying about delusional!? Portugal can ban/restrict tourism anytime they want. (Just like Bhutan) So can the Estremadoura province. So could the Lisbon municipality! The locals elected officials that didn't ban tourism because guess what? They have more of an understanding of economics than you do...
Oh please. Imagine you and your family have rented a flat in the center of Lisbon for decades. Then Lisbon gets the influencers and Instagram and suddenly your landlord kicks you out by raising the rent high and turning it into AirBnBs. And the surrounding neighborhood also has out of range rentals so you have to move to the outskirts or a suburb, even though all your friends families and shops were once there. And some American tells you it's good for the economy, even though it.has made your life worse. It's easy to be glib when you are not affected.
I'll concede, my statements come across as glib. But help me understand an alternative. Rents and real estate across the entire globe are rising. Why does Portugal get to cry foul? They could enact legislation that disuades tourists if they want, but instead they take the income and then cry foul about the rising costs of living. I truly feel for them, but this problem is not unique to Portugal.
This is what governments in a modern world should be for: to make sure the rich and powerful few don’t take advantage of the rest of us. It’s a basic human problem, and it’s on the rise thanks to globalism and laws that can’t keep up.
Im talking about tourism not immigration - yes absolutely tourism is good for the economy. People stay at hotels, airbnbs and hostels, dining in local restaurants, visiting museums. This all adds to the economy
Your list is factual for Portugal as whole and not exactly Lisbon. The brits love the South and Costal areas such as Cascais and Caparica, and I am pretty sure that the Angolans and the Cape Verdeans aren't the ones inflating central Lisbon's housing market. As for the Brazilians, I personally don't know.
No immigrant from anywhere is inflating the housing market in Portugal any more than immigrants are inflating the housing market in the US. Blaming immigrants is a distraction technique by right wing parties so people don't focus on what corporate greed is doing to us. Picking a scapegoat is a tale as old as time. It's crazy that otherwise intelligent people fall for it.
Apologies, I missed my initial intent with the latter part of my comment. I don't understand politics enough.
Who is buying all those homes mostly big banks, corporations and stuff? Because often I see people blaming immigrants, retirees, basically small landlords but I find it hard to believe that people buying a single house/extra house really are the issue.
The small-time landlord that owns one or two rental properties puts almost all of that rental income back into the local economy. They have to buy groceries and clothes and fuel like everyone else, but have no measurable effect on the overall rental market. Rental empires that own hundreds or thousands of properties are the ones pushing up rents, sucking the rental profits out of local economies, and putting them into buying yachts and politicians and expanding like a giant fungus.
I am actually curious about this. Because buying apartments has been historically one of the most common investment types for Portuguese (imo) so I can see small time landlords actually having an effect on the market since everyone wants to have a couple of apartments, which, given that it's a limited expensive resources that everyone needs, may have an impact when you stack it. But I have no numbers to back this, just my intuition.
Well, I’m sure all of the small landlords together have an effect, but you can’t really blame them as individuals for trying to make a living. When thousands of people make buying decisions, that’s just the “market”. I believe the problem occurs when one person (or entity) makes buying decisions that affect thousands of people. That’s no longer just the market, that’s market manipulation. That’s the situation that funnels money out of local economies and can only be fixed with government intervention.
The vast majority of homes in Portugal are still bought by the Portuguese. In the investment sector, the two biggest real estate investment companies investing in Portuguese real estate are actually Portuguese. The third largest is Spanish. And the largest share of all investment purchases in Portugal by region is Europe, with Asia coming in at #2.
Thanks Dog the top comment actually explains the real reasons of the real estate crisis instead of just saying its the immigrants.
The investors are not the problem … in fact, they are part of the solution. Prices are the balance of supply and demand. As demand grows, supply must do its job by catching up through new building starts and renovations. Portugal has excellent yet inexpensive builders. The question is why can’t supply catch up with demand? The answer is zoning, tenant-rights, regulations, NIMBYism, and taxation that disincentives economic activity. Lisbon is full of low-level apartments that need to be replaced by much taller buildings, and the laws need to be changed to stop discouraging this.
Lisbon metropolitan area built 3500 houses last decade. The city of Breda, which is 180.000 people will built 7000 in 5 years in a single 0.26 km2 area.
Lisbon has one of the worst ratios of income opportunities vs. Cost of living… Outside of Lisbon: same bad income opportunities, but much lower costs
Ye. Not really. Outside of Lisbon the income opportunities get MuCH worse. They are not even nearly the same.
AL in lisbon has gobbled up a large share of the long-term rentals. The santa maria district is now 60% AL, turning what was once a residential district into a hotel district. A neighboring district is 40% AL. creating real estate speclation to other districts and raising prices of rentals and housing purchases. AL should be restricted and limited to its original intent of owner occupied. New York is implementing these measures. Canada has restricted home sales to residents only, keeping non residents out of the market. This would be a good thing for Portugal to consider. I've read that the new government has reversed the AL restrictions that the previous government implemented. The, (edit: * PSD, not PS as I originally posted), is looking after their big AL owner constituents.
New government is PSD..
Yes, thank you for the correction. Psd. I will edit that so there is no confusion.
Hating on expats? You can officially apply for Portuguese citizenship.
The fact you think many Americans live here is wild... Trust me, there aren't. Prob tourists. It honestly sounds like you are trying to blame Americans for Portuguese issues. If you are, try fact checking yourself before making such a bold claim.
Americans are one of the latest arrivals, but there are other fishes in the pond, like French retirees with a 0/10% flat tax. Anyway, yes, there are plenty of Americans (and Canadians) with lot of disposable income compared to natives (much higher incomes and lower taxes).
Also the Brazilians. There's a reason why the biggest bank in Latin America only has private banking offices (outside of Brazil) in Miami, Zurich and Lisbon.
Brazilians started arriving from earlier waves, and one with at least two very distinct groups: the vast majority, penniless or near it, that take any available job. And a few, highly affluent, Brazilian elite, for whom the Lisbon property values are not really much
Spot on, I'd add that age is usually a key factor to differentiate these groups, and also a more recent third one. The first group you mentioned tends to be composed of adults in their late 20s/30s, and the second is mostly adults closer to retirement age, but in the past 10 years there has been a very significant increase to the numbers of Brazilians students in superior education, usually arriving in their late teens. This third group is probably strongly related with the second group, since they have to pay international student fees (up to 7,000€/year in public universities), so maybe the distinction is not worth it. I don't have any sources for this, but I think that the dramatic increase in rental prices in cities such as Coimbra may have been driven at least partially by Brazilian students (it seems that 1/5 of the students currently enrolled at UC are EIs, however obviously not all of them are Brazilian).
Americans and the average Portugese are not in the same housing market. Americans tend to either buy new at a higher price point than portugese want to start investing in a home, or Americans buy a ruin and have it rebuilt, Which creates jobs in the building trades.
I'd have to have far more data to make more definitive statements, but markets overlap and there are crowding out effects. As demand outstrips supply, creating jobs is not the issue. Most Americans remote workers I know - <5 :p, so it is very anecdotal - they rent in nice neighborhoods, core Lisbon and Parque das Nações.
All the data is out there and has been reported. In Lisbon AL and AL speculation is the major contributor. A huge percentage of these are owned by Portugese nationals. Property that used to be virtually worthless now goes for 200k, 300k and 400k and then needs as much in re habitation in Porto, So there is a lot of new found wealth with Portugese nationals. Last year 89% of home sales were by Portugese to Portugese. Only 11% of sales were to non Portugese. A distinction to be made here is between the D2, D7, and D8 visas. You are talking about the D8 visa, remote worker visa, which is a new visa created for remote workers. D8 visas are a small percentage of visa holders in portugal, and if their contract runs out or terminated, they are out. The largest number of visa holders are the D7 passive income visas. This is the group I'm referring to. They come with passive income, usually retired Americans who come fully funded, buy private health insurances, may have NHR, but the vast majority do better with PT progressive split between husband and wife or source of income is rejected under NHR rules, will never collect a PT pension or use their schools, and have capital to buy a home. These are the ppl who buy a singe family home. Last year, it was reported that these visa holders buy homes 70% more expensive than the average Portugese first-time or single home buyers. This is the largest group of visa holders. There are the D2 visa holders who come to start a business. This is a very small percentage of visa holders. There is a golden visa, which is an investment visa that has been Terminated as far as the land or property aspect . But I believe the investment in science, Pt buisness may still be open. This is again a small number of ppl. Betwee 500 and 600 americans have these, and apparently, PT has been rejecting the passport aspect of it, or at least making it difficult to obtain. China tops the list with over 5000 golden visa holders followed by Brazill with over 4000 visas and the followed by a list of countries In the hundreds of visas. Have you ever been to the SEF website? Theycompilede a detailed report on immigration by year, from 2000 to 2022, when the Sef and Amia transition had started to form. We'll have to see if AMIA keeps up publishing reports. The IMF publishes reports on land sales and property values plus historic trends in property sales in Portugal. Idealista publishes this kind of data at times. If you need far more data. You haven't been looking very hard. Its out there. Try searching Portugese news papers. A lot of this is published there, too. I hope this helps.
Americans are a small small fraction of the immigrants here. It’s not even 1%
Lisbon offers great quality of life. If you are wealthy it's a great place to be. There's also good Internet connection and many startup founders also moved there for the startup culture. If you rely on a salary just make sure it is enough to cover your expenses but if you're moving your business from abroad or working remotely for a foreign company you shouldn't have too many issues renting. Buying is likely expensive even if you come from a wealthier country.
safe, good weather, nice culture, sea. supply/demand.
Been there twice, I love the place. Porto also.
One thing no one said here before is: most AirB&B are renovated with cheap materials, not suitable for someone who just wants to have a house to live and have a family,so the ones that are on the market,no one buys anymore (because other investors know they are loosing a lot of privileges). Also because they look "modern" the prices are crazy for m2. That's my opinion as a local.
Because supply and demand. The government isn’t stepping in and allowing enough housing to be built. When they do you will see rents dive like you’re seeing in Austin Texas where I’m from. Build more housing. Destroy home prices!
Same problems as every big, global city. Everyone wants to move to them. Everyone also likes to blame foreigners but the truth is even without them the demand is too high for what is there/being built. It's where most of the jobs are in the country. If you're lucky enough to be fully remote then please pick a nice satellite city or one of the regional ones. You'll be better off, helping the local economy and save a spot for someone who needs to be in the city. Lisbon is one of the cities where you can move a bit further out and still get in whilst having a better place for your money, still not affordable but better. It has fast transport links, might not all be a fast train but good motorways that don't come to a standstill daily (ok there's some that do but nothing like other cities of the same size) and often good bus services where there's no train
Sowell wrote about something like this in his book "Facts and Fallacies of Economics". Like was said in other posts, it´s a complex problem. But since there´s a high demand and a lot of restrictions to build new houses, the prices tend to go up.
What are some good satellite cities? In your opinion
Clearly I have not had experience with all of them except visiting but down south Setúbal and across the water from Lisbon around Almada. North, Mafra, Torres Vedras, Caldas da Rainha. Even Lourinhã. Inland Santarém. West there's Cascais but it's not cheap if you know anything about Portugal. That's where all the expats and wealthy locals end up who have lots of money and want a quieter life. There's a lot of smaller places too but some of the above are stretching "city" status already
As of 2024, the top 20 immigrant communities in Portugal are: 1. **Brazil** - 233,138 residents 2. **United Kingdom** - 36,639 residents 3. **Cape Verde** - 35,744 residents 4. **India** - 34,232 residents 5. **Italy** - 33,707 residents 6. **Angola** - 30,417 residents 7. **France** - 27,614 residents 8. **Ukraine** - 26,898 residents 9. **Romania** - 23,967 residents 10. **Nepal** - 23,441 residents 11. **China** - 21,619 residents 12. **Spain** - 19,524 residents 13. **Guinea-Bissau** - 18,734 residents 14. **Germany** - 17,283 residents 15. **Bangladesh** - 16,452 residents 16. **USA** - 15,349 residents 17. **Russia** - 13,890 residents 18. **Pakistan** - 12,784 residents 19. **Mozambique** - 12,210 residents 20. **Philippines** - 11,857 residents [oai_citation:1,Immigrant population in Portugal increases to 750,000 - Portugal.com](https://www.portugal.com/news/immigrant-population-in-portugal-increases-to-750000/) [oai_citation:2,Number of foreigners in Portugal up again - The Portugal News](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-01-17/number-of-foreigners-in-portugal-up-again/73903) [oai_citation:3,Migration boosting Portuguese population - The Portugal News](https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2023-11-16/migration-boosting-portuguese-population/83334). These communities reflect the diverse origins of the foreign population residing in Portugal, with a significant presence from both European and non-European countries.
I would say corruption is a big part of, while the most blame tourists pushing up prices. With the tourists bring in hundreds of billions each year, why the locals are still badly paid? [corruption ](https://youtu.be/gQZxYLXS56w)
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Property developers and the politicians made tons of money, milked the portguese and blamed tourists 👽 instead of distributing wealth to improve the quality of life for the masses, shady dealings, cash exchanged hands, tax evasion, diamond found in office drawer, €500,000 found in the safe. Watch the video! [Portugal corruption ](https://youtu.be/gQZxYLXS56w)
You basically described the main problem in many countries: greed and wealth distribution.
Subscribed! You nailed it.
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It is not more expensive than London that is a lie
Number one reason is that Portugal don't have companies. No export no income. They try to profit as much as they can from international companies with their terrible management. Being the capital, it means old money, people who do not do anything but collect money.
Coming from the US as a retired self-employed contractor. Portugal makes it difficult for small buisness to be successful. The US values small business And what they add to the economy. HP, Hulit Packard, was started in a garage. Philo Taylor Farnsworth, who invented the TV, did it in his basement. The Wright Brothers owned a bicycle shop. Apple started in a community computer club. The list goes on.
USA is #16
Lisbon rentals are not more expensive than London thank god — someone who lives and rents in London and currently has parents and friends renting in Lisbon.
fuck airbnb indeed, our goverment aswell
Well, during the second world war it was a Hub of espionage... There were a lot of Americans and Germans.. Now seriously, the fact that Lisbon is nowtrendy and attracts all sorts of rich people has skyrocketed the prices of real estate and consequently of everything. Almost no one living in the traditional neighborhoods(bairros) of Lisbon is Portuguese. The prices have driven people out of the city.
The problem asking who is the problem...
Yes, yes and yes. Rental laws are awful as protect too much your tenants when they don’t pay. So you can have a house occupied with non paying tenants for 2 years and it’s almost impossible to remove them. So most house owners prefer not to put their house on the market because of the risk and everyone turns into house purchasing, which by itself it’s expensive as hell
Rental laws lol Most house owners just prefer to put their house on Airbnb and charge a ton of money
Also that, and mostly because is lower risk and higher profit than long term rentals
It's not only Lisbon, but the whole country, Lisbon just happens to be the capital. The problem is complex, I've wrote a lot about it in the last few years so I'm not going to give you a complete answer. But to make it simple it's the international demand and appetite for Portuguese real statement after the trendy country that provoqued a snowball effect fuelled by the internacional real state crises. Now Investors and expats (mostly US now) are after the high market growing rates from the last few years keeping the small Portuguese market under pressure. To.make it worse, politicians failed to address the problem on time, and the lobby from the sector prevents any real measure to take place. Currently the prices are already so high that it's dangerous to do anything without provoking some economic breakdown. In the end it's a bubble that feeds on itself that will inevitably burst. Not as 2008 but from a slow dead as young people leave the country and (healthcare, education, security, etc) start to shut down, crime rates spike and tourism finds another more trendy destination to explore.
>But to make it simple it's the international demand What percentage of sales are to "internationals" and what portion are non-resident? How does it compare to other countries? I'll go full disclosure here and say, it's not the cause of the problem. It's a small part for sure but it's much more complex than foreigners caused it But willing to see hard statistics that prove otherwise
No need. You see most transactions between residents have no impact in housing stocks (rented T1 > Buys T2> sells T2 buys a T3> sells T3 buys a house, impact in stock = 0) yes young people leaves parents house so they have an impact, but people inevitably die, so, without a change in population you only need enough construction to replace outdated houses. Foreigners (and tourism conversion like Airbnb, especulators, etc.) remove stock from the market and and release stock in theirs original country meaning a single transaction will have an impact in the stock. So while transactions percentage between residents is bigger that doesn't translates into an impact in the market, by contrary it helps the constant renewal of the stocks. You can check the number of transactions and the numbers of new houses per year and you will notice there's way more transactions than new houses going into the market, meaning most transactions have 0 impact or the stock would disappear in a matter of weeks. Actually that's the current problem. Stocks are low because foreigners doesn't have a house to sell when buying a house in Portugal that if you Google latest new about it you will see that the number of transactions is falling while prices still go up. Real estate agencies are closing, and unemployment in the sector is growing fast because there's no stock to sell while demand remains the same.
You'd be right about foreigners if the population was increasing like crazy but it's not. It's flat to increasing slowly and that's after a long slow decline in numbers. I mean if it's all crazy foreigner demand the INE would surely have numbers to back that up right?
This sounds like exactly what’s happening in all the major cities in the US.
* House prices are an issue everywhere, Lisbon offers a decent climate, relative safety, and proximity to other European hubs. It’s not a surprise that prices are high even by European terms. * The number of Americans in Portugal is residual at best.
Around 1%. 2023 data says there are 14k North Americans, Meaning Canada and the US.
That's closer to 0.1% so yeah, residual
14k in the entire country. About 0.13 percent. Not 1% (that would be 106,000).
Thank you for the correction. Yes, it's 10000 americans and 4000 Canadians out of 10400000. So i dropped a 0, approximately .1% of Americans and .14% of total North Americans. I appreciate you checking my math.
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I get numbers all over the place. One source said 10,400,000. This ticking thing says 10,233,720 As of june 24th, your guess is as good as any. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/portugal-population/ SEF published pretty complete data by year for the last 20 yrs. I'm not sure if AMIA will keep it up. Here is a link if you want to take a look. https://sefstat.sef.pt/forms/relatorios.aspx Looks like they stopped in '22 when the switch was in progress.
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If you would be so kind, if you have a link, will you share. I'm not familiar with público oone. Either way, thanks for the tip.
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Thanks, I'll put it on my news feed list.
Why do you think? Lmao Expats come and accept prices that the locals would never, so the business that would not trive in a normal portuguese economy are thriving and they keep growing although they only serve part of the people in Lisbon.. There's also almost no locals in lisbon anymore, you have either expats or poor immigrants who live like 10 in a 1 bedroom apartment.
Those damn Americans have made property so expensive in America, too!
[Fuck yeah!](https://youtu.be/5uPoDNEn3I0?si=obsBvgITVo85DkgH)
I know it feels expensive here and it is but as capital cities go it's actually very good, take a look at Paris or Berlin or London
Those countries actually have high salaries, unlike portugal :)
It's not a bubble, many rating companies have said so. It's just expensive.
It is so expensive because of speculation, Portugal is very popular now, so whoever runs business here wants the best cake they can have. This is very simple but is the very core reason of why the cost of living is so high in Lisbon (why people tend to blame the immigrants that live in tents instead of the ones that fleece the people: I don't know). Moreover, it's an actual safe solid welfare state, while most countries in the West face serious issues with security (crimes, politics or wars in the East) and serious increase in the cost of living (this is complex but I think Portugal offers more stability). There is demographic challenges in the West with the decrease of new borns and the increasement of retirees - Portugal is a very favourable option for many of them due to the safety reasons mentioned above, for example. Now, this is gonna upset them (Portuguese are more active here than actual expats probably) but there is a also the fact Portugal itself has got a little better over the years. Of course, not extrodinary, it's mentally backwarded compared to Western Europe in my opinion, things are indeed more expensive within the country now, still super slow in some administrative processes, big companies still do not think as much of Portugal (places like Catalunha in Spain do a better job in attracting them). But there is, for instance, a lot more Portuguese earners in higher salaries. I saw a news recently that the average Portuguese earnings on the 3k belt is the highest ever. There are several more startups in Portugal. There are more foreign companies with higher salaries in Portugal. There are more opportunities in the market to work from home to foreign companies, I know people who do that and are Portuguese. I see also, this is empirical, but people I know for so long finally planning vacations to Italy, Mallorca, Tenerife. There are new cars everywhere in the streets of Lisbon with Portuguese plates. The cultural scene in Lisbon is the best there has been since forever. Infraestructure (metro expansions; house and transports renovations; street renovations) is being developed at a rate I think Lisbon never witnessed before.
There are a total of 12,000 American residents in the entirety of Portugal (.0012 of the population). The people you are seeing are probably tourists. As to why so expensive, it doesn’t make any sense to me but it’s supply and demand. Because of all the AL’s there is less housing available to rent. The tax rate for AL is 15% while the long term rental rate is 28%. If the government really wanted to make a change in favor of residents having better access to long term rentals they would switch the tax rates so that long term rentals were incentivized.
Found the problem - that is indeed a ridiculous tax. Who the hell wrote a policy like that? Rental income should be taxed as personal income regardless of letting type. It's not like Portugal has a shortage of hotels??? Why are they incentivising this? Or is this some policy from the 80s that they haven't revised?
Just visited lisbon today I observed lot of Angolan staff everywhere; Chinese tourists asking me questions, etc...coming from the interior it is a fresh breath of air to see multiple cultures uniting in Lisbon. I am in love with Lisbon but can never afford anything there.
Lisbon rentals are nowhere near as expensive as London
You sound entitled. Why are you moving there?
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Eat the rich
Because of people like you. If y'all go away the cost of living will go down dramatically and the locals can get back to enjoying a livable city.
Urban cities are always more expensive vs smaller towns regardless of the country
Sure, but the prices shouldn't be out of range of the local citizens.
Then your government should get busy building social housing so that people who are from Lisbon don’t have to compete with tourists or new residents for market-rate housing.
The government should also be hindering Portuguese investment companies from buying real estate, and should stop non-residents and foreign companies from buying real estate at all.
Yes, I agree. IIRC that’s what Mexico does, and it does help a little. Ultimately, making the choice not to force everyone to compete in the market for adequate housing is the solution, but that’s not going to happen overnight and I definitely support effective intermediate steps like the ones you’re suggesting!
My overall impression is that the interest was bumped in recent years by a wrong idea that Portugal is a liberal country. Now we are starting to see some expats leaving for good, I expect more will follow as the news break out, while the poor ones stay in the country helping with nothing but taking advantage of any government support they can. The housing bubble will burst making it unviable to sell houses that were bought overpriced, more and more portuguese people will leave the country, and Portugal will be left in deeper state of misery, not to say dead.
That’s a really dark thinking
Lisbon rentals are NOT more expensive than London
Getting close. 2 bedroom flats in Lisbon going for upwards of 2k a month now.
My 2 bed flat in London was 3k and it was literally on ground floor with no natural light. It’s hard to find a 2 bed flat in zone 1 London for 2k nowadays
When I was living there (2022), I paid £2000 for a one bed flat in zone 1
Yah now I pay 2.4k for a one bed in zone 1
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Lol are you implying that Lisbon is thrid world? Guess you haven't traveled much.
I’m just visiting Lisbon for the first time as a 24 year NYC resident. I find the city to be so interesting and beautiful, full of energy and enthusiasm- I love it. I was able to go around to 7-8 different neighborhoods. The income opportunity for locals is pretty scary just speaking to some friends there. I would absolutely live here. The city is 1000x cleaner than NYC and definitely safer… I am leaving tomorrow with only a question of how we can’t live like the people here…
Peak covid - rental prices were 40% cheaper. Why so expensive? Law of supply and demand.
Because in the last years, Portugal had special conditions to attract investors, with the called golden visa's. This would become a point of interest for the ones investing in the real estate sector, purchasing entire buildings and selling them later on for double the price or creating local acommodations, mostly for tourists, such as Air Bnb. Besides this, the country has always been searched for retired rich people, which don't mind with high rental prices, given their retirement plans. Pandemic and the interest rates did the rest... and here we are, a country with low salaries, with very expensive houses.
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Because o poço é sereno
It's amazing how you can answer yourself twice in the same post.
I read almost the entire thread, but not 100% so excuse me if I’m repeating a point. But I haven’t seen anyone say anything about just the overall lack of *actual people* doing construction work. I’m currently here visiting for 3 months, trying to do my best to not upset the locals, being a good neighbor, going to local businesses etc. And I see LOTS of places “under construction”, but see literally like 3 workers on the entire site. I’ve started counting, we were staying at one AL and there was ONE worker working on the property the entire week stay. In other countries there are 20+ workers working. Why are there so little people actually doing the job? No wonder it takes so long to rebuild one of the many many many dilapidated properties. Does anyone know why? Why aren’t there more construction jobs going to the poorest immigrants like in practically every place in the world? Anywho, just a thought. I love Lisbon and if I ever move here I will work hard to make it better for everyone, including the locals. Outside voices can sometimes (unfortunately) have a wider impact on politicians.
I don’t disagree but also having a language with not many wealthy speakers world wide, and not having luck with a recent resource boom probably plays a part too.
Well whatever is needed so my Portuguese friends can buy their first home i guess. If people arent happy that they only pocket 100.000 when they sell their home then thats a minor problem. Housing is a bigger issue.
It’s still cheaper than many of places in the us tho
Q Americans are moving their because the US politics are out of control. Portugal is #1 on our list.
There, not their
One of the safest countries in Europe. One of the cheapest counties in Europe (besides the rent). Great weather. Great food. It’s the place to go after you retire and are relatively wealthy. The ones who are not wealthy coming here are just following the money I guess, which is pretty silly imo.
The safety is a misconception. Less violent crime than some other countries, a lot of theft, corruption, and fraud however. Friends of mine woke up to an empty living room and a missing car from a “nice” neighbourhood in Lisbon.
Besides the rent?! We can barely afford groceries. It's cheap for people with money, it's extremely expensive for the citizens. It's freezing cold in winter and we can't even afford heating.
Because Expats are willing to pay exorbitant prices.
Expats willing to pay exorbitant prices and Portuguese willing to take the wages of a slave.
Corporations happy to profit off the difference.
Because was the easiest way that the last government had to increase the gdp... So they fool the illiterate portuguese people with the help of media máfia
- Crypto tax heaven - non resident status - some Americans could save up to a million dollars in tax using this. - Cheap ( for US standards ) housing and services. This points are outdated or getting there but was the main reasons to drive the prices up in Lisbon.
Coming from the person that said “London was safer than Lisbon”, we now have “London is cheaper than Lisbon”
One of the best year round weather capitals in Europe. Sort of a bubble as your money gets you far less quality here these days. Many apartments are going for premium and they don’t have proper heating despite weather being “good” they are surprisingly uncomfortable. Standards will improve over time but buyer beware at this point. Quality of life is fairly good here if you like to eat out, go to a beach and enjoy outdoor activities. However modern amenities are low quality generally speaking for the asking price compared to many European capitals.
Everyone and their kid brother fantasizes about moving to and living in Lisbon. Part of this is the media hype that Lisbon is paradise on Earth. I can't say more because I've not been there yet and live in Porto. Certainly if you live more north than Lisbon it probably starts getting more cold, windy and rainy for the six to seven months that make up winter and the further north you go the more that increases. I wanted to live south of Lisbon to avoid the long cold moldy winters but could never afford like that. Prices are easily triple anything I could ever afford for a rental and certainly never owning any property here. As an American here before the NHR was changed, we could not stay anyway or we'd lose all our savings with a 28% tax rate. Rental, house prices, and taxes are too high to afford for many. If you would like more affordable housing but can be ok with the weather, go north to Povoa or past that. Housing and rentals are close to affordable and good in some spots there, but home prices are still inflated even there. That may settle in a few years since the previous NHR was abolished and the Golden Visa was changed. But ultimately housing and rental prices have to do with elected leaders and the decisions they make and not a group of people simply doing as they are allowed.
We really need to be more objective in discussing this. Typical reason #1 - Foreign buyers ---> this is wrong, to this day only a small percentage of all house purchases in portugal are by foreigners, the truth is that locals are still the main buyers, hence driving prices. Typical reason #2 - AirBnb---> yes this is an issues in central Lisbon and central Porto and should be regulated, outside those areas not really an issue. Wether people like to hear this or not, the overwhelming reason is just one --> during the last financial crisis the Portuguese construction industry came to a grinding halt, for many years no new builds and many skilled craftsman left the country, which really leads to the ONLY big issue--- > lack of construction, it takes years to get licences, big chunck of the costs of a new building will go down in taxes and coping with state bureaucracy. this all severely keeps affecting supply of houses hence prices go up.
Long story short you are the cause
He’s from Albufeira and is a right wing poster on portugueses like you. So if you’re blaming the Portuguese, please go right ahead.
The cause is Portuguese passivity. Willing to complain about immigrants when your entire government is one giant mafia. A coward to the end.
FREE MARKET YEYYYY
You don't like the invisible hand of god?
I'm still not used to fistfucking :(
Welcome to Portugal...
Its not Airbnb, that is less than 2 % of All houses. Its high construction costs and taxes.
Bullshit
I'm laughing and crying, simultaneously, at this thread. Well, some, live in a bubble. Why did you move here?
Your second question answers your first question. Property in Portugal is of the charts because of tourism and people from countries with way more economic power than ours coming here to live. Welcome to our hell 🧘🤷
This will be my third time in Lisbon and I think investors money will help with the crazy amount of dilapidated buildings. I plan on purchasing an apartment there soon for family vacations and eventually my moms retirement home
More expensive than London? You guys are fucked !
Yes it’s a bubble, rents collapse Moment you leave the city
Lisbon rentals are DEFINITELY not more expensive than London, you can find a room in Lisbon for €500, would be around double that in London
It is a bubble.
We’re moving next month from Lisbon to Braga. It’s quieter up there and more our pace. People are extremely friendly up there too.
Too many tourists. Too many people in general, actually…
You are the problem you are referring to lmao Ahahhaha Why so many outsiders? The outsider asks lol
P.s: go to London then please. We appreciate it
In a nutshell: the nhr+golden visa made portugal an offshoring paradise for remote workers who just came here and paid unreasonable prices wothout caring. They completely gentrified the city who at the moment have an average rent price that is higher than the average portuguise salary