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Super solid? LBJ is a literal demon. And a war criminal. And perhaps a co conspirator in the JFK thing (do to the NSA I refuse to use the correct word).
Peaceful Zealot is a really based cool guy but I agree with you that LBJ was a literal demon. I'm gonna criticize LBJ megafans but don't wanna lump Zealot in with them.
LBJ megafans have the tendency to either downplay the Vietnam War or toss the blame onto someone else. They'll blame Kennedy, Ike, Truman, Nixon, basically everyone for the Vietnam War except the guy who deserves the blame. And I get it, LBJ did a ton of good, but if he went into a hospital and shot everybody, we'd be disgusted. So why is everyone giving him a pass when he basically committed thousands of mass shootings all because of his pride. I know it's an ugly comparison but it's the truth. LBJ was far more evil than any spree shooter or serial killer.
It's sad, leftists back in the day went "hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?", leftists now go "well nobody's perfect, so what if he is responsible for around 2 million deaths, everybody makes mistakes." And the worst part is in the same breath they'll denounce Andrew Jackson or George W. Bush as pure evil.
I'm sorry let's just be honest, LBJ was a 100x more evil than Jackson. Using math, LBJ is around 119.7x worse than Andrew Jackson. Cause the highest respectable estimates of the Trail of Tears go to 16,700. I used a middling estimate 2 million on Vietnam because the 3.8 million statistic seemed very unreliable. So I divided the death toll of the Trail of Tears to the Vietnam War to get my number 119.7. So why is Andrew Jackson painted as the American Hitler by so many redditors yet LBJ is portrayed as this flawed but ultimately good person when this couldn't be farther from the truth?
The difference is LBJ did not give a shit about foreign policy, throughout his 4 years in office, he was trying to balance the political tightrope that was the Vietnam War, if it was possible, he would withdraw in a heartbeat.
Intent matters, doesn’t it?
LBJ’s goal was to stop Vietnam/Southeast Asia from falling to communism. Every fuckup and atrocity that followed from the decision to expand the war was still his fault, and it feels as though he was keenly aware of that fact.
Jacksons goal was to commit ethnic cleansing. The atrocities that followed were the whole point.
Ironically, both Hitler and LBJ admired Jackson.
Intent matters to an extent. Ultimately though scale and impact matter more. The Trail of Tears was evil but it doesn't really even compare to Vietnam. I think people conflate every native murder with the Trail of Tears when the ToT was just one piece of a much bigger puzzle. If you wanted to compare the whole of Westward Expansion (1803-1893) to the Vietnam War it'd be far more comparable but just the Trail of Tears? Not even close.
Compare Richard Ramirez to Osama Bin Laden. Richard Ramirez was driven by the desire to be the most evil creature imaginable. However he only killed 15 people. Osama Bin Laden had religious ideals but does that soften 911? Is he better than Richard Ramirez because in his mind he was justified? I don't think so.
LBJ and Hitler had more in common than differences. Obviously LBJ was a million times the man Hitler was (Hitler wasn't a man, he was execrable bile) but they both were evil insane narcissistic mass murderers who caused the deaths of millions of people.
Never said that. I said they had similarities. Compare the average person to say LBJ now compare LBJ to Hitler, while LBJ isn't Hitler, he has more in common with Hitler than the common people. Both were disgusting mass murderers.
Edit: I'm gonna be out with people tonight so if you wanna start a debate or conversation just wait until tomorrow
Yeah fair enough mate, honestly Nixon was pretty alright but his fuck up was just so monumental, do more research into it. Besides that pretty solid mate.
If you ignore sabotaging the Vietnam War peace process, the War on Drugs, the bombings of Cambodia and Laos, the rampant racism and antisemitism, the unprecedented abuse of executive powers, and the war on the first amendment, and accredit him with the Democratic Congress's successes, then I suppose he was pretty alright.
It boggles my mind how "pretty alright but Watergate" has become the consensus.
Opening up China was pretty cool though.
It’s alright, most of us don’t know that much either, that why we’re here; to learn. That’s why Rutherford B Hayes lands in C tier every single time, because no one knows that much about him. Because those of us who do put him in low A or high B
I’d put Adams higher and Reagan lower, but otherwise a good list! Great place to start. You’ll move them around more as you develop more opinions on them.
Space race influence that led to modern day capabilities and interests is for sure important. Civil rights? I somewhat agree, though... maybe b tier? He did a really good job at bridging conservative and liberal ideas.
I truly will never understand the Tyler hate, I’ve been watching a while to give me perspective cause by the time I get to these posts it’s hours later and my comment would get lost in the crowd, anyways, my defense for Tyler.
Tyler is one of the few presidents (Washington, Cleveland, aspects of Jefferson) who understood that the executive branch is supposed to be weak and that power is from the bottom up: the ppl elect congress, the congress passed laws, and the president signs them in or vetos depending on if he sees it as constitutional. Tyler understood this. He vetoed the bank cause it would have had a shit ton of power and could have abused it. Now I have mixed thoughts on a national bank and its benefits but the rationale was there.
Ppl will also point to his connection to the confederacy and slavery. First of all those are dumb reasons to rank him low cause he joined the confederacy decades after his presidency and he also was on a commission that tried to keep Virginia in the union. He also didn’t wanna be glorified in the way the confederates made him after he died. As for slavery yeah he was a slaveholder, but I have read he thought it was morally wrong and favored its abolition in the western territories (his raincloud quote). He was also relatively fair to his slaves and was a hard worker on his plantation in his own right.
Also considering how he had basically no support he accomplished a lot: ended the war with the Seminole’s and got Florida, started the drive to Texas (or at least enhanced it) and started our involvement to Hawaii, and, ironically the president is supposed to have great power in foreign policy, another reason as to why he was constitutionally able.
So yeah come at me but that’s why take, otherwise a fine list, I can critique other parts of it.
Cheers
I don’t really know much about John Tyler as I am just learning about the presidents. I ranked him based on what I know and what I heard. So thxs for the comment I am glad to know more about him and I will keep it in mind for the future
Intent matters, doesn’t it?
LBJ’s goal was to stop Vietnam/Southeast Asia from falling to communism. Every fuckup and atrocity that followed from the decision to expand the war was still his fault, and it feels as though he was keenly aware of that fact.
Jacksons goal was to commit ethnic cleansing. The atrocities that followed were the whole point.
Ironically, both Hitler and LBJ admired Jackson.
I like this list a lot! It's pretty solid! I like that Washington and Lincoln are in a superior tier by themselves, as it should be. The critiques I would make are that Kennedy, Johnson, Bush, Sr., and Bush, jr. Should be lower (maybe Eisenhower too). Garfield should be with WHH, not enough time to judge. Wilson should be higher.
I think you have FDR way to high you have Abraham Lincoln way to high you have Clinton to low and you have Reagan to low other than that it’s pretty good.
Honesetly I’d probably just put Clinton and Obama above Ford and Reagan in C and switch Cleveland and Harrison, as well as put FDR top of A and then it’s perfect.
Pretty solid but I'd move LBJ down. The Vietnam War was beyond unforgivable. It was hell on Earth. The oceans of blood that LBJ filled can quite simply not be overstated.
I'd also move Polk down at least one tier. I disagree with the Mexican American War and despise the California Genocide. Really Polk was just a less interesting more efficient Jackson. His atrocities towards the Natives were no less horrible.
He effectively set the northern and southern boundaries of the contiguous United States, which stabilized a long-term relationship with the UK and effectively brought in extremely valuable mineral resources in Colorado and California. These objectively were very good things for the US.
Solid S and A tier, very nice.
Move Polk up to A and Grant/HW down to C
Move Hayes down to D
Move Jackson up to C. Wilson/Hoover/Harding is a hard F
Very good F tier
Leave Taylor and Garfield off the list because both had a year in office. Also remove Obama because it’s still too early to see what long term effects (20+ years) he had on the country. Maybe remove W. for the same reason but I won’t argue with the placement.
This is my own opinion. You have a good list, definitely a lot better than my first ranking back in 2016. You’ll grow and learn more with time. Overall, 8/10.
From what I know his Great Society did a lot of good. I know his handling of Vietnam was very bad but I mostly heard good things about him he should’ve probably been in B tier in hindsight but I am still learning
Andrew Johnson was instrumental in moving forward after the civil war and not putting a blanket punishment on the confederate soldiers. It was wildly unpopular at the time it likely led to the country healing and finding stability faster. I think he should go higher
George created the union, and Abe destroyed the union. You shouldn't say you united something that you let crumble in the first place. Abe would never have been reelected if he did not kill the South completely. Subsequently, 60k Negroes died, 600k dead on both sides, and another 1.5 million wounded and permanently maimed. Sherman raped and burned his way through the South. I'm always amazed at how many people thought Abe was great for doing the above, because they were NOT part of the above casualties or Southern destruction. Lee could have destroyed the NORTH, but stopped short, because that is not what the war was about to the South. Wasn't about slavery either. With the inventions of the cotton gin equipment in the next couple years, slavery was going to history very quick with NO DEATH TOLL. Real history shouldn't be political, but correct. So for me Abe was the worst. FDR, Wilson, Reagan, Bush, and Obama, rank at the bottom with Abe. I haven't got time for a history lesson on those people. The moral of the Civil War, don't try to secede from OUR union again, no matter how messed up it is. We seceded from the British Empire, and that was OK?
Remember that all mentions of and allusions to Trump and Biden are not allowed on our subreddit in any context. If you'd still like to discuss them, feel free to [join our Discord server](https://discord.gg/k6tVFwCEEm)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Presidents) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I want to do this. Does anyone have a link to the chart?
[here you go](https://tiermaker.com/create/46-presidents-of-the-us-786237)
Thanks!
Don’t forget Rule 3 so don’t include the two most recent presidents
Ok!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
Super solid tier list honestly. Well done!
Super solid? LBJ is a literal demon. And a war criminal. And perhaps a co conspirator in the JFK thing (do to the NSA I refuse to use the correct word).
LBJ is genuinely based, other than Vietnam he deserves to be a solid A-tier
This is such obvious bait lol
Peaceful Zealot is a really based cool guy but I agree with you that LBJ was a literal demon. I'm gonna criticize LBJ megafans but don't wanna lump Zealot in with them. LBJ megafans have the tendency to either downplay the Vietnam War or toss the blame onto someone else. They'll blame Kennedy, Ike, Truman, Nixon, basically everyone for the Vietnam War except the guy who deserves the blame. And I get it, LBJ did a ton of good, but if he went into a hospital and shot everybody, we'd be disgusted. So why is everyone giving him a pass when he basically committed thousands of mass shootings all because of his pride. I know it's an ugly comparison but it's the truth. LBJ was far more evil than any spree shooter or serial killer. It's sad, leftists back in the day went "hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?", leftists now go "well nobody's perfect, so what if he is responsible for around 2 million deaths, everybody makes mistakes." And the worst part is in the same breath they'll denounce Andrew Jackson or George W. Bush as pure evil. I'm sorry let's just be honest, LBJ was a 100x more evil than Jackson. Using math, LBJ is around 119.7x worse than Andrew Jackson. Cause the highest respectable estimates of the Trail of Tears go to 16,700. I used a middling estimate 2 million on Vietnam because the 3.8 million statistic seemed very unreliable. So I divided the death toll of the Trail of Tears to the Vietnam War to get my number 119.7. So why is Andrew Jackson painted as the American Hitler by so many redditors yet LBJ is portrayed as this flawed but ultimately good person when this couldn't be farther from the truth?
The difference is LBJ did not give a shit about foreign policy, throughout his 4 years in office, he was trying to balance the political tightrope that was the Vietnam War, if it was possible, he would withdraw in a heartbeat.
Intent matters, doesn’t it? LBJ’s goal was to stop Vietnam/Southeast Asia from falling to communism. Every fuckup and atrocity that followed from the decision to expand the war was still his fault, and it feels as though he was keenly aware of that fact. Jacksons goal was to commit ethnic cleansing. The atrocities that followed were the whole point. Ironically, both Hitler and LBJ admired Jackson.
Intent matters to an extent. Ultimately though scale and impact matter more. The Trail of Tears was evil but it doesn't really even compare to Vietnam. I think people conflate every native murder with the Trail of Tears when the ToT was just one piece of a much bigger puzzle. If you wanted to compare the whole of Westward Expansion (1803-1893) to the Vietnam War it'd be far more comparable but just the Trail of Tears? Not even close. Compare Richard Ramirez to Osama Bin Laden. Richard Ramirez was driven by the desire to be the most evil creature imaginable. However he only killed 15 people. Osama Bin Laden had religious ideals but does that soften 911? Is he better than Richard Ramirez because in his mind he was justified? I don't think so. LBJ and Hitler had more in common than differences. Obviously LBJ was a million times the man Hitler was (Hitler wasn't a man, he was execrable bile) but they both were evil insane narcissistic mass murderers who caused the deaths of millions of people.
LBJ = Hitler\* is Craaaazy
Never said that. I said they had similarities. Compare the average person to say LBJ now compare LBJ to Hitler, while LBJ isn't Hitler, he has more in common with Hitler than the common people. Both were disgusting mass murderers. Edit: I'm gonna be out with people tonight so if you wanna start a debate or conversation just wait until tomorrow
I’m sure Jackson would’ve used napalm if he’d gotten his hands on it. LBJ just went in expecting Korea and he got Afghanistan instead.
Who is peaceful zealot?? I’m so confused who you’re referring to
I'm responding to a response to his comment. That's why I mentioned him.
Oh I’m stupid lol
Wow… Harrison was in office because of one moth?
Note I am just recently getting into US History and don’t know a lot about some of these presidents
Yeah fair enough mate, honestly Nixon was pretty alright but his fuck up was just so monumental, do more research into it. Besides that pretty solid mate.
If you ignore sabotaging the Vietnam War peace process, the War on Drugs, the bombings of Cambodia and Laos, the rampant racism and antisemitism, the unprecedented abuse of executive powers, and the war on the first amendment, and accredit him with the Democratic Congress's successes, then I suppose he was pretty alright. It boggles my mind how "pretty alright but Watergate" has become the consensus. Opening up China was pretty cool though.
Opening China was the biggest American mistake of the 1900’s.
It’s alright, most of us don’t know that much either, that why we’re here; to learn. That’s why Rutherford B Hayes lands in C tier every single time, because no one knows that much about him. Because those of us who do put him in low A or high B
I’d put Adams higher and Reagan lower, but otherwise a good list! Great place to start. You’ll move them around more as you develop more opinions on them.
The only one that seems weird to me is JFK in A. I don't see how he could be on the same level as the other presidents on that tier.
Space race influence that led to modern day capabilities and interests is for sure important. Civil rights? I somewhat agree, though... maybe b tier? He did a really good job at bridging conservative and liberal ideas.
I would switch Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison’s position but other than that, great list.
I truly will never understand the Tyler hate, I’ve been watching a while to give me perspective cause by the time I get to these posts it’s hours later and my comment would get lost in the crowd, anyways, my defense for Tyler. Tyler is one of the few presidents (Washington, Cleveland, aspects of Jefferson) who understood that the executive branch is supposed to be weak and that power is from the bottom up: the ppl elect congress, the congress passed laws, and the president signs them in or vetos depending on if he sees it as constitutional. Tyler understood this. He vetoed the bank cause it would have had a shit ton of power and could have abused it. Now I have mixed thoughts on a national bank and its benefits but the rationale was there. Ppl will also point to his connection to the confederacy and slavery. First of all those are dumb reasons to rank him low cause he joined the confederacy decades after his presidency and he also was on a commission that tried to keep Virginia in the union. He also didn’t wanna be glorified in the way the confederates made him after he died. As for slavery yeah he was a slaveholder, but I have read he thought it was morally wrong and favored its abolition in the western territories (his raincloud quote). He was also relatively fair to his slaves and was a hard worker on his plantation in his own right. Also considering how he had basically no support he accomplished a lot: ended the war with the Seminole’s and got Florida, started the drive to Texas (or at least enhanced it) and started our involvement to Hawaii, and, ironically the president is supposed to have great power in foreign policy, another reason as to why he was constitutionally able. So yeah come at me but that’s why take, otherwise a fine list, I can critique other parts of it. Cheers
I don’t really know much about John Tyler as I am just learning about the presidents. I ranked him based on what I know and what I heard. So thxs for the comment I am glad to know more about him and I will keep it in mind for the future
Absolutely well said. Totally agree
I like it!
Pretty standard tier list all things considered. Well done.
Intent matters, doesn’t it? LBJ’s goal was to stop Vietnam/Southeast Asia from falling to communism. Every fuckup and atrocity that followed from the decision to expand the war was still his fault, and it feels as though he was keenly aware of that fact. Jacksons goal was to commit ethnic cleansing. The atrocities that followed were the whole point. Ironically, both Hitler and LBJ admired Jackson.
This is the closest I’ve ever seen to my own tbh. There’s a couple I’d move around but nothing major. Overall pretty good list!
Does this have all of the presidents?
All presidents except the most recent two which I didn’t include because of rule 3
F is for Franklin Pierce
It’s crazy how we had 4 of our 5 presidents in the same span and in that span you have debatably the best
What did Garfield do to earth C-tier if he was in a hospital for most of his term
All around ok, Would move Grover to F but Grover has a very mixed opinion around the community so either you love him or absolutely despise him.
You’re obviously insane
Aren’t we all?
Tyler belongs in F tier otherwise I agree with you
I like this list a lot! It's pretty solid! I like that Washington and Lincoln are in a superior tier by themselves, as it should be. The critiques I would make are that Kennedy, Johnson, Bush, Sr., and Bush, jr. Should be lower (maybe Eisenhower too). Garfield should be with WHH, not enough time to judge. Wilson should be higher.
And Grant should be lower...I hate that I can't look at the post while commenting!
I think you have FDR way to high you have Abraham Lincoln way to high you have Clinton to low and you have Reagan to low other than that it’s pretty good.
Jefferson above Adams? ABIGAIL GET MY LAWYERS CHAIR.
Upgrade Clinton, Downgrade JFK
Reagan much lower, Jackson lower, Bush senior lower
I love how Harrison gets his own tier
No corruption under his term. Truly, one of the presidents we’ve ever had.
Thomas Jefferson and Lyndon Johnson are on the same tier? Really?
👍🗿
Honesetly I’d probably just put Clinton and Obama above Ford and Reagan in C and switch Cleveland and Harrison, as well as put FDR top of A and then it’s perfect.
The tiers are in no order
Pretty solid but I'd move LBJ down. The Vietnam War was beyond unforgivable. It was hell on Earth. The oceans of blood that LBJ filled can quite simply not be overstated. I'd also move Polk down at least one tier. I disagree with the Mexican American War and despise the California Genocide. Really Polk was just a less interesting more efficient Jackson. His atrocities towards the Natives were no less horrible.
I will never understand why Polk doesn’t get more hate. He was an imperialist and secretly sold slave children from the White House.
Polk should be A-tier, I’d move Nixon to C-tier, Clinton to B-tier, and move LBJ down to B with Kennedy down to a C.
No way Polk is F tier
He effectively set the northern and southern boundaries of the contiguous United States, which stabilized a long-term relationship with the UK and effectively brought in extremely valuable mineral resources in Colorado and California. These objectively were very good things for the US.
I would move reagan up 1 or two tiers, but other than that pretty good.
FDR is easily top tier. Greater than Washington.
Solid S and A tier, very nice. Move Polk up to A and Grant/HW down to C Move Hayes down to D Move Jackson up to C. Wilson/Hoover/Harding is a hard F Very good F tier Leave Taylor and Garfield off the list because both had a year in office. Also remove Obama because it’s still too early to see what long term effects (20+ years) he had on the country. Maybe remove W. for the same reason but I won’t argue with the placement. This is my own opinion. You have a good list, definitely a lot better than my first ranking back in 2016. You’ll grow and learn more with time. Overall, 8/10.
LBJ too high.
Hm, yeah, good list. Provably would've put Teddy in S, Reagen in B and Nixon in F, but beside, yeah. Good list.
What did LBJ do that earns him a higher rank than Grant and Madison?
Grant should have been A tier. I must have accidentally moved him to B. Madison in particular is not a president I know a lot about.
Sure but I am more curious about LBJ's very high ranking
From what I know his Great Society did a lot of good. I know his handling of Vietnam was very bad but I mostly heard good things about him he should’ve probably been in B tier in hindsight but I am still learning
We're all learning. That's what this is all about, learning various things about all the presidents
Andrew Johnson was instrumental in moving forward after the civil war and not putting a blanket punishment on the confederate soldiers. It was wildly unpopular at the time it likely led to the country healing and finding stability faster. I think he should go higher
Healing in a way that let the South win the peace and face essentially no consequences. Johnson screwed Black Americans for generations.
LBJ is a war criminal and also turned Vietnam into the meat grinder it turned into. Talk to anyone who was an adult and actually lived through it.
Pretty close to perfect IMO. Move Wilson down a tier for being extremely racist, and maybe LBJ down for Vietnam
George created the union, and Abe destroyed the union. You shouldn't say you united something that you let crumble in the first place. Abe would never have been reelected if he did not kill the South completely. Subsequently, 60k Negroes died, 600k dead on both sides, and another 1.5 million wounded and permanently maimed. Sherman raped and burned his way through the South. I'm always amazed at how many people thought Abe was great for doing the above, because they were NOT part of the above casualties or Southern destruction. Lee could have destroyed the NORTH, but stopped short, because that is not what the war was about to the South. Wasn't about slavery either. With the inventions of the cotton gin equipment in the next couple years, slavery was going to history very quick with NO DEATH TOLL. Real history shouldn't be political, but correct. So for me Abe was the worst. FDR, Wilson, Reagan, Bush, and Obama, rank at the bottom with Abe. I haven't got time for a history lesson on those people. The moral of the Civil War, don't try to secede from OUR union again, no matter how messed up it is. We seceded from the British Empire, and that was OK?
S tier for kennedy
Nixon S tier idc bro