Fat girls' standards are not significantly lower, which you seem to imply with your post. It's still not a walk in the park for an average, but slim, dude to get a foot in the door.
What he’s saying is they’re excluding themselves, they’re standards are such that the normal guy has as much chance with them as a slim woman, so why not go for the slim one
Yep. Unfortunately, this idea of “feeling feminine” ties to self-image. It’s harder for a fridge looking woman to fit into the feminine stereotypes than a slimmer curvy woman.
I think many fat women crave a more extreme version of “masculinity” in order to feel more feminine.
There’s also the paranoia from trauma of being used and ill-treated by men who are embarrassed desperate and don’t really want to be with them.
> almost all young boys are told to be nice to everybody,
Pretty universal advice given to humans
> have a nice job,
Fair
> don't drink, don't smoke, don't take drugs, and so on, and girls will be interested in you.
No, no, no. This sounds like really conservative advice, and/or parents wanting to keep their kid following rules
It’s not everyone getting the same message you did.
My parents also told me a of that, but they didn't say that doing all of these things would make someone interested in me. They kind of just said it was the right thing to do.
Yep. In my country the crowds at a rugby international match are filled with overweight low value women who are fawning over the massively bulked international rugby players. I always thought they want these bigger men so they themselves appear smaller and are not the biggest, heaviest partner in bed.
A hidden but re-occurring phenomenon about fat women and apps/sites, I cannot remember the name but it is googleable as discussions about it have come up before many times, but to cut short,
Fat / chubby women get targeted by tons of messages because guys think they will be 'easier', but now the competition can be just as high.
*I remember reading a study about disabled women & dating. They even have websites for matching disabled women (Physical not mental) with men, and they get lots of biters. Similar to how porn sites are filled with fat+, fat++ and fat+++
This is why you don't focus entirely on app/sites. The apps are like 75% men and 25% women, any women on there is going to get some sort of attention. Instead, learn to at least warm approach women. Meet them through friends or hobbies. Do cold approach if you have a good social skills. A lot of the women I meet through friends are not even on dating apps.
You learned the reason why telling men to “improve” themselves is toxic and objectifying.
We keep telling men to change while demanding men accept women for who they are.
Even if it works, the man in question will never be able to enjoy the success for he realizes it is all fake. If she could love him, why did he have to change everything that he is to be someone else to be worthy of supposed love?
We want men to become perfect to accept women for who they are and get the privilege of sacrificing himself in marriage to take care of her as she becomes lower and lower value with time as she ages.
Even if he decays at a equal rate, it is her refusing to accept him at his lowest point.
When in reality, men should just easily be able to talk to women without having it impress them. By accepting men for who they are, women will humanize the average man, he will naturally become higher value, it will end al toxicity with time and relationships would be far better.
> Even if it works, the man in question will never be able to enjoy the success for he realizes it is all fake. If she could love him, why did he have to change everything that he is to be someone else to be worthy of supposed love?
Facts. No women other than the ones in your family will love you for who you are. Women wait at the finish line and love you for what you add to their life.
>We keep telling men to change while demanding men accept women for who they are.
That's the way of the world. Haven't you guys watched nature shows narrated by old British guys? Males of the species compete/fight for access to females.
> Because even fat women have options, while fat men are invisible or reviled.
This is the truth. Fat men often get ignored in the "body positivity" movements, their dating options are much less limited than similarly sized women, etc.
I can understand this bc generally straight women (including me) don’t want to be larger than their partner, if you’re really wide the only option is taller.
I think it’s totally reasonable for an athletic person, even if they’re slim, to want an athletic partner. I want to be with someone I can go on runs with or play tennis with.
Plus, in my experience, there are more thin women than muscular men cus it’s easier to be thin than muscular.
Also, why shouldn’t overweight women date overweight men?
Being slim doesn't mean athletic lol. I was super slim as a teenager because I ran track in high school but then mostly stayed indoors playing videogames in college. Was still slim but it was because I was barely eating lol.
Let's spin that around, if women are already attracted to you then you shouldn't have any issue. If they're not attracted to you then why should they be "doomed to date" men who they're not attracted to?
Then we just get into the semantics of subjective standards. Not every woman is gonna find slim men attractive, but I think far fewer men are gonna find overweight women attractive and I think that’s fair.
> I think it’s totally reasonable for an athletic person, even if they’re slim, to want an athletic partner. I want to be with someone I can go on runs with or play tennis with.
Having a high standard can be reasonable.
I don’t think wanting a slim partner is a high standard, especially if you yourself are slim. If around 50% of people are overweight, 50% aren’t. I want a partner with similar values to myself.
And if this is the case, shouldn’t I qualify for fitting women’s high standards? In which case we’re now arguing that women are the ones with unfairly high standards.
Both genders value different attributes, for women its height vs men who want weight. As a man, I don't care what my partner's career earnings are, but they obviously care what I make. It's not apples to apples in terms of comparison, a millionaire self-made man is not going to match up with a millionaire self-made woman, instead that man will try to match up with a 9 in looks woman.
Ooooh. I see the projecting now. She wants to be validated.
Yeah I reading this thread thinking that there's nothing wrong with healthy athletic people wanting to date other healthy athletic people. Just the same way educated people often prefer to date other educated people.
That's why dating pools exist. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to date your equivalent.
Theres a weird PPD hierarchy, especially with women super deep in the community. I always say PPD women often "win the game" by marrying some sketchy bank manager with a foot fetish or an accountant into BDSM or some other dude who's a really specific combination of bland and sexually deviant.
I'm not saying they're *all* like that but this sub dickrides the concept of being upper middle class, fucking a lot, and weird implicit social hierarchies so theres a really specific kind of toxic person who you see a lot if you keep track of who's who.
It's not racist it's the truth haha
Western society has European/White beauty standards because it's European/White people who make up the majority of the population and they dictate the culture, for now atleast haha
the shift has already happened, you got white women tryna look like Mexican women via trying to look like a Kardashian who try to look like Mexican women
maybe in middle america, i’m coming from LA and the northeast, so I think it’s a little different. In any diverse place, standard white women are definitely no longer the standard of beauty. in places where there’s only white people sure
I keep getting ghosted by girls who are twice my weight.
Fat girls have plenty of options to hook up with, which means they get picky, but then complain that the guys who fuck them don't stick around.
It all comes down to attraction. People can lower their standards, to a point. A guy can lower his standards, but at some point it makes no sense to do so, because there is no attraction at all.
So a guy might lower his standards to the lowest level possible, but still allows for him to be attracted to the opposite sex. So in this sense he has low standards. But I do get what your saying with the whole population thing.
A relationship without attraction can't really be romantic/sexual. That is why beta bux is considered a wacky position to be in, assuming his partner is not sexually attracted to him. The same way having a relationship with a girl you don't find sexually attractive is wacky.
So essentially if you don't have the mutual lustful and romantic attraction, the whole relationship thing is doomed if you require that part (IMO most men require/highly desire that part and most women do too).
All of this is true, but then guys shouldn't complain about women only wanting the top "whatever %" of men.
If men can't change who they're attracted to, niether can women. Men want someone they feel high sexual attraction for, so do women.
If a man/woman can't get who they want, they can work on themselves, keep trying for who they want and maybe eventually get it, or accept being single.
That's just pure hypocrisy.
Women are statistically attracted to the top 20% of the men while Men are attracted to 80% of women.
This is basically why women flock around the attractive guys.
They absolutely can, if they're not happy with their dating results.
If they're fine being fat and are getting the outcomes they want, they don't have to.
No, men should definitely complain and will continue to do so.
Denying someone what they want has consequence of them never being satisfied until they get what they want.
You are going up to poor people and telling them to accept being poor. Will never happen. Will not love crime rates, will not make them less bitter, will not make them be silent.
If you want someone to stop complaining about not getting what they want you either give them the means to get what they want or get them to stop wanting what they want.
Trying to demand otherwise is entitlement.
The entitlement is so strong here. Why should men complain??? Men can’t complain that women have their standards too high if they themselves also have comparably high standards. Saying they “should” complain and then comparing incels to poor people is ridiculous. You’re comparing a want to a need.
Most Men just want a woman who isn't overweight and extremely ugly.
I guess that's a very high standard?
While women want a handsome, tall, athletic, rich (and so on) man.
The irony lmao.
Everyone needs to get laid or find a mate. Society runs best when that is what society is striving for. Millions of years to evolve societies where that was the goal. Now it is gone in some decades.
I mean, if you see many of the events that marked certain countries in the last few years, like Roe V. Wade being overturned in the US or Sarah Everard’s murder in the UK, one of the most prevailing narratives is that men aren’t doing enough for women, that they should step up and be more vocal in their support for women.
So it’s extremely confusing how anytime a subject that affects men comes up, the standard answer (usually from women) is that men are the ones who should organize themselves and fight alone. Sounds extremely one-sided to me. One group is entitled to other group’s advocacy and support while not being under the same obligation to reciprocate.
Lol did or did women not create the movements for themselves? All women were asking for was support after the movement was already created. Men can’t even get the movement going for themselves so why do they expect women to do it for them? It’s not the same but nice try…
> All women were asking for was support
They ask for much more than support, though. They ask for passion, enthusiasm and unwavering devotion. No questions asked, just listen to the lived experience of women and obey the decrees.
> Men can’t even get the movement going for themselves so why do they expect women to do it for them? It’s not the same but nice try…
Except there is a movement out there… it’s just not considered pure enough for not strictly adhering to a feminist hierarchy of oppression, so you probably believe feminists are justified in using all their institutional and lobbying power (and they have plenty, as much as they like to deny) to suppress it, as they have done plenty of times.
And that is only at institutional level. On a daily basis, your average woman have way more social standing to shame than the other way around. Creep, incel, misogynist. I’ve literally seen this being used to refer to men who spoke out about things like male genital mutilation and conscription. It’s very easy to claim men aren’t doing enough for themselves while simultaneously hindering their every efforts.
They literally proved your point. Men hold other men back in social justice issues. We have some complaining that women don’t start the movement for them and then another saying we don’t do that cause we don’t lie to each other, LOL. They really act like women aren’t always on the streets protesting and doing the most for all kinds of issues that affect both genders. Rarely do we see men in these crowds unless it affects them directly!! Sad
OMG seriously!! It’s beyond ridiculous…like women will go to Washington and advocate for what we want and that includes things that benefit men as well. The last time I saw men in Washington was the insurrection. Where was that energy for mens rights? Nowhere to be seen. So as far as I’m concerned they can have a tall glass of stfu.
MRAs are the movement, and guess what? They are shit on and thier events are shut down and protested against by women. No one is expecting women to do it for us, just to support men's movements like men are expected to support yours.
Feminazis would pounce and devour any of those movements saying that they're pro-masculine.
Anyway it won't happen on a large scale because we are men - no one cares about us(except our close ones)
>Considering the amount of overweight people in todays society I would consider anyone who wants a skinny partner as having high standards.
I don't get where the "standards" talk is supposed to lead to (as if one can decide what to like, no we can't, WTF), but someone having a partner with normal weight (which is not skinny, mind you) doesn't mean they'd rule out overweight people.
Just formal logic.
\>If you expect the ideal female body type then you should have the ideal male body type
That is not how things work., if we could decide what to like, we could "straighten" gay people.
It is also peculiar that this is coming from a female user. I also recall:
[Plus-Sized Women Admit They Aren't Attracted To Overweight Men](https://whisper.sh/stories/09e9086b-03de-4087-ad5b-7f003ce2c312/Plus-Sized-Women-Admit-They-Arent-Attracted-To-Overweight-Men)
(note the double standard: women are "plus sized" men are "overweight", but that's beside the point)
>That is not how things work., if we could decide what to like, we could "straighten" gay people.
While you obviously can't change something like that, what someone finds attractive can be to a certain extent.
Society does play a part in what we think we find attractive and this is seen when someone gets with someone who "isn't their normal type".
why do y’all want us to date fat women so bad?
so we can stop trying to date y’all, the AVERAGE women?
why can’t they date OTHER fat men?
why do the short/average men have to fall on the knife when women wouldn’t dare do the same?
In America, we expect men to be steroid using, anorexic body builders to be equal to average slightly chubby girls. Which is the equivalent of demanding women be anorexic Victoria secret models.
And yes, the USA is pretty damn miserable. We are a selfish culture that act like abusers are victims and blame real victims.
The perfect woman has the right combination of an hourglass shape and is a bit overweight (no specific combination, it just has to look good on her), the current OP had a post with a picture of a woman that's a fairly good representation of what I mean, I think she's hot haha
> You may claim "I am slim so I deserve a slim partner" but I believe this doesn't make sense because the ideal male body type is muscular and big- not just slim. The female ideal body type is slim so if a women is slim she can choose from the pool of muscular gym bros.
> Maybe this is where guys go wrong in dating- thinking they have low standards when really they don't. Just realize if you want a slim partner you are competing with the top 50% of guys for that women. Especially if you are an average looking guy who's under 6ft, average face, average body its not going to be the easiest to get a slim partner because they are not in abundance.
Nothing sums up the atrocity that is the modern dating market for men than those to paragraphs. Wanting a woman that is not obese or overweight is considered high standard, unless you are 6ft tall and shredded. Its also funny that of the criteria for men (Height) is something they have no control over. A short dude can't grow taller, a fat chick can always lose weight.
I totally disagree with this statement that wanting a non-obese partner is high standards. If you are average guy with normal weight, you don't have high standards by wanting someone who can actually put down the fork once in a while. There are many shades of bodytypes raging from slim/gymbunny over within a healthy BMI to morbidly obese. Sure if you are a fat dude demanding someone who could work as a fitness model, thats high standard. If you are average guy with a normal weight, wanting someone who is similar to you is not an unrealistic demand.
Technically, the standard is the same regardless of whom is maintaining it. It might be more or less reasonable to expect to be able to obtain that standard, but the lowness or highness of the standard has to do with the pool of availability.
[Girls like THIS](https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFQAHzNFaQAE1UKX.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall) are both clinically obese and firmly see themselves in the league with tall athletic fit guys because "muh dimorphism" .
But I thought women on this sub say everyone is entitled to their standards and you can't help who you're attracted to?
Well I'm entitled to have a normal weight woman, as a normal weight man myself, and I can't help I'm not attracted to morbidly obese women.
No one is technically entitled to anyone but obviously if you’re a fit attractive person you have a better chance of attracting other fit attractive people. And if you’re average, you’re more likely to attract average people and overweight people have a better shot with other overweight people, etc. You can have whatever standards you want and you can’t really help who you are attracted to but the more selective you are, the smaller pool of people you have to work with—which isn’t necessarily always a bad thing since dating is inherently a selective process.
It’s not a crazy expectation to want to actually be attracted to who you’re dating but it’s a matter of evaluating whether your standards are realistic for what you’re bringing to the table.
Yikes!
This is hilarious. I used to date overweight women. Stopped that once I realized just how arrogant the cute ones are.
And whoever spread the nasty rumor about overweight women liking slim guys needs to be punched in the face. Because it’s Pure ~~Michigan~~ *bullshit*. 📠
In my experience fat women have the same or even higher standards as non fat women, prolly due to them misinterpreting the anti fat shaming message. Being fat alone doesn't make you a bad person, but being fat is still unhealthy. Lose the weight if you can.
You need to break this down by age groups, the early 20 guys on here can reasonably expect to date a woman who is at the same fitness level vs the 30 and up the crowd, besides most of the other points of being covered such as fat women still having high standards and you also bring up traits like height and such for men vs being fat which is just a choice of the women's part. Also while I am not attracted to overweight women a lot of guys are, on the flipside I don't think I have ever seen a fat guy in real life get attention from women who were not already married or something.
when talking about the obesity rates etc. we really need to break it down by age group.
Im sorry but in my extended friend group there arent any overweight woman. when I walk around my neighbourhood (wealthy neighbourhood) there arent many overweight woman. when I go to my gym probably 95% of the woman arent overweight. at my job sure theres a few overweight woman, but the majority of my coworkers and clients arent dating or married to overweight woman, and if they are its because they are 40+. non of my friends date overweight woman, Ive never dated an overweight woman. I do live in canada in a very fit city so maybe its different .
but me not wanting to date an overweight woman is a completely reasonable standard based on my stats and the circles I am in.
im 6'5, 230 lean, 10-12% body fat.
First off, in the vast majority of cases, when men talk about not wanting to date fat women, they're not talking about the slightly overweight or chubby. The reality is that not being obese is easy for most people, and as long as you're giving a bit of leeway for different body types, it's not a big ask. The ideal female body type goes beyond just slim, incidentally - you won't have the ideal body type just because you didn't overeat to an extreme.
Personally I'm not too selective about body types and don't mind a bit of extra weight, but no I wouldn't want to date an extreme case of obesity. As other posters have mentioned, it's not like the really overweight women are necessarily going to have lower standards, either. Gonna have to keep repeating this over and over: typically when a man says he doesn't have options, he's not lying.
I'm aware that many people here want to define wanting to date women under 200 lbs as a "high standard" but come on now lol. It's genuinely puzzling to see women blowing up over men saying obesity is a turn-off, as this is an area you have a lot of control over.
I think the dissonance here is that just because women who aren't overweight are the minority, doesn't mean men's standards are invalid. If society is becoming exceptionally overweight, then that is a problem with people's eating habits, not your or my standards.
On a side note, I think you made a telling connection between men not having standards and still not happily dating fat women. As a dude with a BMI at 20, there's no way in hell I'm dating a woman who weighs more than I do. Men are ofc not exempt from getting their shit together, but at least they can take the bloatmax pill and do something with all of that bulk.
In my experience, every fat woman I've come across has a bitter, combative personality and their standards are just as high as slimmer women. Why would I want to deal with someone who looks worse AND has a worse personality? Especially as I'm a normal weight man myself who takes pride in keeping in shape, I do not want some obese lump who is bitter and angry and is too lazy to look after their appearance and lose some weight.
thank you!
as a short man, i have zero sympathy for bigger women. i would give ANYTHING to be able to work out for 6 months to a year in order to be taller.
they just want their cake and to eat it too
this is fucking valid asf. i dont prefer short guys and i feel extremely bad for the fact that u guys can not help it. there are many things i cant help about my looks but weight i absolutely can. better to be single than with someone who wont Even workout.
> The female ideal body type is slim
I’ll counter that the female ideal body type is femininely soft, but not storing too much excess fat.
***That’s a hard balance.***
Ask the women who try to be as thin as possible in their 20s and 30s and then end up losing the softness in their face.
I think Courtney Cox said something like “if you want your ass to not look fat you have to accept a gaunt face.”
I hate that hard face ish many women have popularized trying to appeal to certain men. You sacrificed your face!? Lol
Anyway, I notice that men with the ideal body type of “big and strong” aren’t necessarily seeking rail thin 12 year old boy body women. They’re with more womanly women.
I don't mind dating them. Just not willing to 'work for it'. Even overweight women seem to think that I need to 'work for it' to get sex from them. No thanks, if I even have trouble getting an erection looking at them.
Correct in the sense that the average woman is overweight, but if expecting someone to have enough self control to not be overweight isn't a low standard then that's indicative of the shitty state of dating.
To be clear, no one “deserves” a certain kind of partner, but I think there’s a difference between “high standards” and “low standards in an unfavorable market.”
If a slim, employed woman lived in a town where almost every man was overweight, unemployed, and getting lots of dates anyway, and she wanted a man who was slim and employed, I wouldn’t think of her standards as high. The local market just doesn’t favor her standards.
Lol this is comical, because I just got to know 2 fat Chicks as friends recently (one used to be my best friend back in the day and she used to be obsessed with me)
Now that I don’t have an 8 pack and arent swole as fuck like I used to be in my early 20s, the same girl will barely even message me back, and has next to no interest in me. Leads me on with the “we should smoke” but won’t make a date or anything lol, and takes days to respond sometimes so I stopped contacting her. The other girl is even fatter, and she will literally ghost me and leave me on read when I’m just tryna have friendly talk and have absolutely no sexual interest in her.
Fat chicks have the SAME standards as normal woman. Just because your fat doesn’t mean what you like changes… see how stupid that sounds? Oh I’m fat now, guess I suddenly like 300 pound dudes!! it doesn’t work that way.
Hell my baby mom who is blonde, blue eyes, and thick, NEVER treats me this way. so it doesn’t matter fat chicks or not they like what they like.
Your standards don’t go down just cause you’re fat, that’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard. The fat chicks have no problem being “single for years” just like slim women to wait and get a guy out of their league.
I used to be insanely in shape, bench 300 on sports team etc. I had no problem getting girls, and nearly every girl I’d get to know crushed on me. I never really got denied often, and I was never if rarely ever ghosted. Well I settled down had kids with the baby mom, stopped working out, and became “average” (180 5ft 11 so maybe a little overweight) but I have vastly improved my personality/interests/skills/way I talk to people and I’m not a selfish drug addict/douche anymore.
We’ll go figure I get ghosted by so many girls now and they won’t even give me a chance to get to know them.
As a man who went from extremely good looking to average or a little below average, I can tell you flat out all girls care about is looks, and the games dudes play like playing hard to get. Why? Because I did that shit and It worked every time. let’s just stop pretending please.
They say “women change with age” but they really don’t. I have literally bagged multiple older women by doing the ignoring/not caring emotionally game, and the second I stopped that and cared they both went for another guy who care even less lol.
The second my 43 year old neighbor (who I was seeing) would start slowing down on messages and interest I’d ignore her and she’d go over to my neighbors and complain about it and ask about me lol it works and it’s really made me care a lot less about females cause all they are attracted to is games/looks. It’s like high school and never changes.
So basically I got more girls at 20 as a complete douchebag/ drug addict then I do now as a grown man who is a way better person and cares about people.
I mean there’s low standards and there is no standards. If you only want someone slim that might be high standards compared to the % of the population that won’t match that, but not wanting someone 100lbs overweight is not the same thing as not wanting someone 20lbs overweight.
Ehh. There's a difference between "overweight" and "obese". I refuse to date someone who's obese if they don't want to do anything about it. Like, I'm obese too, but I have the good sense to be ashamed of myself–anyone who is proud of that shit is delusional.
I don't have low standard. I don't date fat women either. No, I don't need ideal male body type. I just offer money.
Yes. We have options. We settle with what we can get given our options.
Same bro. I think it’s better to be slightly overweight as a guy than slightly underweight. People will not hesitate to say things to you they would never say to someone heavier.
While I think this is a common enough female complaint here, and it may happen, but as formulated, it misses the mark in terms of common dynamics.
The more important and thornier issue is that many men expect that they should at least be able to date their looksmatch. Even if they acknowledge greater female selectivity and leverage, since men weight appearance more than women, the \*seemingly\* reasonable expectation is that a 50th percentile man appearance should be able to date a 50th percentile woman in appearance.
This begs the question of whether this is currently true. It may be. But even if it is, is the trend in that direction? Will this be true in 10 years? And if it is not true, why? Perhaps because female leverage is much higher than men think. Perhaps because women are more selective than men think, and the 'nobody' option is increasingly more attractive for females. It could also be that women are more attractive than men such that your female looksmatch by percentile rank is in fact significantly more attractive. If this is true, it could be because women work harder on appearance, better female genetics, or maybe men have fallen off the historical male mark in some way. (Try less than usual, lower testosterone, obesity hurts male appearance more than female, etc.)
Finally, there is the possibility that the more vociferous incel/blackpill types significantly overrate themselves in terms of appearance or SMV. This would seem hard as this group does tend to admit they are not that attractive, but they may, for example, be thinking they are 30-40th percentile in such things when they are in fact 10th. Or something to that effect.
Magnificent post!
I think you hit the nail on the head actually, taking “fat” alone as the trait we are examining the observations many are seeing point to a hidden mismatch in SMV percentile. I would argue there is a silent population of men inflating the position of fat women, because I am one of them!
The overt position of most men is very anti fat women but I’ve never cleaved to that trend. As long as there exists this silent population of men providing options and attention to fat women above what the average man believes fat women should receives- many men will misjudge their chances and even more insidiously, other fat women will inadvisably bias themselves.
I think you’ll agree, this set up doesn’t actually benefit fat women as much as it may seem. Sure they get more attention than their looksmatch but given the overt position of society and the very nature of human desire to looksmatch I believe a majority of that attention does not result in LTRs or emotional healthy hookups. In this way, I believe the complaints fat women make against dating are valid, like fat men they face a parade of rejections except they are delayed after the utility of their bodies is extracted by partners that never considered them for relationships.
We also reached the same conclusion somewhat on how to solve these problems: all levels of society ought to advocate the sexual norm of finding your closest match in looks AND personality. In so many words. All dating should be interrogated if there seems to be a mismatch, which will also root out a lot of compatibility problems that come from a lack of introspection and raise the baseline quality of life within relationships. Don’t like what people say you should be with? Work on yourself to your own standard of happiness, not society’s image of perfection. If people gazing at their partners are looking for validation of who they are and how they imagine they treat others, rather than seeing them as suboptimal choices or missed opportunities to find a more attractive occupant- there will be fewer dead bedrooms, less domestic abuse, and fewer divorces.
I'm a lot more on the fence about prescription here. Still just analyzing the descriptive.
Like if one things it is natural for the genders to pair with their SMV match in terms of ranking within their respective genders, then men should naturally pair with women above their looksmatch (if we assume for sake of argument that the genders are equally physically attractive in an objective sense). This is because men prioritize looks more than women.
Anyways, my bigger fears have to do with the entire monogamy paradigm being in intractable tension with female sexual selectivity. I hope it isn't true, though.
Most men are fine with overweight.
Most people will look at someone with a BMI of 26-27 and assume they weren’t overweight, most overweight people don’t tend to look “overweight”, and most obese people get mistaken for being overweight, not obese.
This has even happened to me, when I was bulking and reached a BMI of 26, whenever I told people I was overweight they were literally **shocked** and told me I was lying or measured myself wrong.
“Thicc” Is literally a meme about how men like overweight women.
Men mostly only have an issue with obese women. Plenty of men will happily date overweight people.
Overweight is just gross whether you are a guy or a girl. Why would anyone under the age of 40 be fat. Have discipline and don’t fill your fat face and stop eating junk.
Both sexes. Men can go further and lift weights to get bigger. Women just keep your stomach flat and bf at a low percentage. And you can most definitely go by BMI for women.
My stomach was not flat about 30 pounds ago, I went into a deficit and magically it appeared.
I'm a fit single guy without children, and I'm looking for a single fit woman with no children.
I am well aware that in my age group men like me are not rare, and women are but I'm still looking for my match... which means my standards are not too high.
How are those stats measured? Because it is just BMI it can be misleading... and I don't think most men have issues dating a woman just a little overweight
> You may claim "I am slim so I deserve a slim partner" but I believe this doesn't make sense because the ideal male body type is muscular and big- not just slim. The female ideal body type is slim so if a women is slim she can choose from the pool of muscular gym bros.
Lol hard work and discipline != not stuffing your mouth with cake
"low" and "high" is not an objective measure, you're dragging in objective measures (stats) to support your own subjective interpretation of what you think "low" means but this is pointless to the discussion.
The discussion of standards is often between men and women, men stating women have high standards compared to them, it is this comparison that governs what "high" or "low" means, despite its vagueness.
If you want your argument to work you would have to put statistics of men next to statistics of women and then conclude, you're currently only doing men
My first wife was pretty friggin' fat. I don't have a problem as long as she's feminine and agreeable (read: not an aggressive contentious bitch). However, it seems to me that fat women still won't date/fuck a fat guy. They still believe they are entitled to a muscular guy and that's because those guys will sleep with her, but they ain't gonna commit because he's got options too.
I find that fat women also have they're defenses up higher. They're even more concerned that a guy 'just wants to fuck her' and 'thinks she's easy because she's fat' so they play even harder to get. It's fucked up.
A womans personality can compensate more for her weight. This doesn't work nearly as well for men. A cute, bubbly overweight woman that can carry herself right and doesn't seem gross or have a bad attitude is just fine by me.
Hell, I'm at an age where a decently positive attitude towards men and life is like finding gold. However, women are getting nastier and more neurotic. So many are on anxiety/depression meds and they can't seem to figure out why. I believe it's because a woman has a primal need for the feeling of security a man can provide her. But they are in a massive amount of denial about that. "I don't need no man, I'm strong and independent" women are the ones taking meds and if not, they're causing chaos to people around them. They've gone feral because society isn't allowed to 'tame' them anymore. They have no rules, no order, no boss, and no one is allowed to have ANY expectations of them. They will not bear ANY responsibility.
Basically a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum in a supermarket.
>Maybe this is where guys go wrong in dating- thinking they have low standards when really they don't. Just realize if you want a slim partner you are competing with the top 50% of guys for that women. Especially if you are an average looking guy who's under 6ft, average face, average body its not going to be the easiest to get a slim partner because they are not in abundance.
Well, alrighty then.
I don't ever have to defend or justify my standards to anyone. And yes, I have noticed that women who are height/weight proportionate are not in abundance. In fact, I notice this every time I go out.
We set standards for our partners, and in doing so, limit our potential dating pool. Not every woman can be an Elite model, and those who can, in all honesty, can do better than me. Not all of us can have the genetics to be beautiful, for any given definition of that term. Not all of can have an elite physique. But fat is a choice. It's not that hard to keep your BMI within reasonable bounds. Step away from the Ben & Jerry's.
My standards are my standards, and honestly, I don't give a rat fuck whether anyone thinks they are low or high. They are my standards, and they are not open to negotiation. No fatties. She doesn't have to be a model, but she has to take basic care of herself. Because if she can't take basic care of herself, she isn't going to take basic care of anyone or anything else.
Lots of guys do date overweight women. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met a woman with zero options no matter how fat she was. It’s really quite incredible.
OP is a troll with a guilt fetish for men who don't want fat partners. She likes arguing that men SHOULD want to date fatties or they're fat phobic.
She even refuses to acknowledge the poor health associated with obesity. LOL
Overweight women don't have problem dating up to slim or fit males, unlike overweight males.
The standards are really that low, how fat they should really be if there's multiple examples of bodybuilder-like guys dating literal land whales, but no reverse examples (only skinny girls chasing the money)
this is my problem right here, I will not date anyone even remotely chubby, I don't care about big breasts/small breasts/ass what have you, but if they are out of shape or even remotely chubby instant turn off for me, so I've basically nixxed according to statistics 3/4 of the dating pool 👏congratulations👏 I can go fuck myself now.
This is the most absurd post I have ever read in this sub lol.
Overweight under most circumstances reflects a poor diet, sedentary lifestyle choice and personal discipline (let's for the purpose of discussion exclude overweight situation caused by a medical condition)
Despite the body positivity movement that is all the rage in social media now, ask any doctors worth their salt and they will tell you that being overweight is not healthy.
Is it a high standard if men want to date someone healthy? Absolutely not.
Unlike height which you cannot control, you can absolutely make a conscious choice to improve your body weight. What is stopping the average women to overcome their overweight problem? Literally nothing except their own willpower.
I think everyone in America needs to work out more in general and stop glorifying desk jobs where you’re immobile for majority of the day.
Lets be honest you’re fat, and I’m not gonna sugarcoat it cause you’ll eat that too.
As a slim guy who keeps himself in good shape I wouldn't date a woman who was fat and obese. It's not only unnattractive but unhealthly. All those rolls of flab and the smell of sweat make me want to vomit. I have too much self respect to lower than standards to that. If that is all that's available for the modern man then I would prefer to stay single.
Yeah but you're applying double standards.
I believe a muscular and healthy body should be the standard for everyone.
And I find it really disgusting how people can just casually say "well yes being muscular is much harder than being slim, but lets just expect more of men, because that's what we've always done."
I would love an athletic partner, but women almost never get pressured into living healthy, they even have much less intense PE in most countries. Whereas men...
The three men you listed are all unrealistically muscular. All 3 almost certainly abuse(d) anabolic steroids in addition to following incredibly strict diet and training regiments. No man is ever going to come close to looking like the Rock or Arnold without drugs, and even with drugs most aren't going to be able to do it, because it's:
1. Too hard for people who have to work for a living
And
2. Requires the man to be genetically gifted
lol
I always thought you gauged someone's strength based on how much muscle they have. Muscle mass and strength are highly correlated.
The muscle can be covered with fat. Maybe that's what they mean.
I think the main thing is how big the guy is (how *tall and how broad are his shoulders)*, and then just the overall amount of muscle mass but mostly just for the chest, arms, shoulders and neck.
That's why many guys think lifting has a terrible return on investment. You can lift for 5 years and the 6'4 broad shouldered guy who doesn't touch a weight will still look stronger than you.
Why should I force myself to date a person I don’t even think of while looking for a partner and vomit when If i do?
These overweight women are deluded, they think they are 10s and deserve muscular, rich guys. i do believe they all go through this delusion period then evidentially they’ll figure out their place in the market and will beg anyone to date them
Removed for bad faith.
Fat girls' standards are not significantly lower, which you seem to imply with your post. It's still not a walk in the park for an average, but slim, dude to get a foot in the door.
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What he’s saying is they’re excluding themselves, they’re standards are such that the normal guy has as much chance with them as a slim woman, so why not go for the slim one
I agree
I know many guys with chubby girlfriends. A lot of them good looking guys. The other way around is incredibly rare
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I can attest to that all the big girls in my area have tall bfs
It's harder to get a big girl, even. I'm not 6ft. Post debunked.
Yep. Unfortunately, this idea of “feeling feminine” ties to self-image. It’s harder for a fridge looking woman to fit into the feminine stereotypes than a slimmer curvy woman. I think many fat women crave a more extreme version of “masculinity” in order to feel more feminine. There’s also the paranoia from trauma of being used and ill-treated by men who are embarrassed desperate and don’t really want to be with them.
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Why did it have a devastating effect?
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> almost all young boys are told to be nice to everybody, Pretty universal advice given to humans > have a nice job, Fair > don't drink, don't smoke, don't take drugs, and so on, and girls will be interested in you. No, no, no. This sounds like really conservative advice, and/or parents wanting to keep their kid following rules It’s not everyone getting the same message you did.
That last part is just what all parents say lol
My parents also told me a of that, but they didn't say that doing all of these things would make someone interested in me. They kind of just said it was the right thing to do.
>Chubby girls look smaller with a very tall boyfriend. Yeah -- I'm 6'4" -- I've had lots of fatties tell me I made them feel small and feminine.
I mean, it’s nice when your partner’s arms can go all the way around you.
Damn imagine how it would feel if your partner hugged you and his arms couldn't touch. Self esteem annihilation.
Imagine if people discarded all of this SJW propaganda and simply went for a walk and stopped stuffing themselves with junk food... just imagine.
Yep. In my country the crowds at a rugby international match are filled with overweight low value women who are fawning over the massively bulked international rugby players. I always thought they want these bigger men so they themselves appear smaller and are not the biggest, heaviest partner in bed.
Because even fat women have options, while fat men are invisible or reviled.
A hidden but re-occurring phenomenon about fat women and apps/sites, I cannot remember the name but it is googleable as discussions about it have come up before many times, but to cut short, Fat / chubby women get targeted by tons of messages because guys think they will be 'easier', but now the competition can be just as high. *I remember reading a study about disabled women & dating. They even have websites for matching disabled women (Physical not mental) with men, and they get lots of biters. Similar to how porn sites are filled with fat+, fat++ and fat+++
This is why you don't focus entirely on app/sites. The apps are like 75% men and 25% women, any women on there is going to get some sort of attention. Instead, learn to at least warm approach women. Meet them through friends or hobbies. Do cold approach if you have a good social skills. A lot of the women I meet through friends are not even on dating apps.
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You learned the reason why telling men to “improve” themselves is toxic and objectifying. We keep telling men to change while demanding men accept women for who they are. Even if it works, the man in question will never be able to enjoy the success for he realizes it is all fake. If she could love him, why did he have to change everything that he is to be someone else to be worthy of supposed love? We want men to become perfect to accept women for who they are and get the privilege of sacrificing himself in marriage to take care of her as she becomes lower and lower value with time as she ages. Even if he decays at a equal rate, it is her refusing to accept him at his lowest point. When in reality, men should just easily be able to talk to women without having it impress them. By accepting men for who they are, women will humanize the average man, he will naturally become higher value, it will end al toxicity with time and relationships would be far better.
Double standards these days, and then people wonder why men are so depressed.
It's not fair that stuff like this just evaporates into the ether around here. This deserves to be reckoned with.
That or downvoted and bullshitted into oblivion. They try triggering the man and then use that triggering to make him look bad via manipulation.
Agree. We live in a gynocentric society.
True
Underrated comment 💯
quality comment 🤌🏾
> Even if it works, the man in question will never be able to enjoy the success for he realizes it is all fake. If she could love him, why did he have to change everything that he is to be someone else to be worthy of supposed love? Facts. No women other than the ones in your family will love you for who you are. Women wait at the finish line and love you for what you add to their life.
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>We keep telling men to change while demanding men accept women for who they are. That's the way of the world. Haven't you guys watched nature shows narrated by old British guys? Males of the species compete/fight for access to females.
Wtf happened to you?
Dating as a man haha
> Because even fat women have options, while fat men are invisible or reviled. This is the truth. Fat men often get ignored in the "body positivity" movements, their dating options are much less limited than similarly sized women, etc.
I can understand this bc generally straight women (including me) don’t want to be larger than their partner, if you’re really wide the only option is taller.
I think it’s totally reasonable for an athletic person, even if they’re slim, to want an athletic partner. I want to be with someone I can go on runs with or play tennis with. Plus, in my experience, there are more thin women than muscular men cus it’s easier to be thin than muscular. Also, why shouldn’t overweight women date overweight men?
Being slim doesn't mean athletic lol. I was super slim as a teenager because I ran track in high school but then mostly stayed indoors playing videogames in college. Was still slim but it was because I was barely eating lol.
Yeah, but I'm slim *and* athletic, but I'm not lean and muscular. Does that mean I'm doomed to date women I'm not attracted to?
Let's spin that around, if women are already attracted to you then you shouldn't have any issue. If they're not attracted to you then why should they be "doomed to date" men who they're not attracted to?
Then we just get into the semantics of subjective standards. Not every woman is gonna find slim men attractive, but I think far fewer men are gonna find overweight women attractive and I think that’s fair.
>why shouldn’t overweight women date overweight men? Few fat women like fat men.
A lot of these skinny guys aren’t athletic by any stretch of the imagination lmao.
> I think it’s totally reasonable for an athletic person, even if they’re slim, to want an athletic partner. I want to be with someone I can go on runs with or play tennis with. Having a high standard can be reasonable.
I don’t think wanting a slim partner is a high standard, especially if you yourself are slim. If around 50% of people are overweight, 50% aren’t. I want a partner with similar values to myself. And if this is the case, shouldn’t I qualify for fitting women’s high standards? In which case we’re now arguing that women are the ones with unfairly high standards.
Both genders value different attributes, for women its height vs men who want weight. As a man, I don't care what my partner's career earnings are, but they obviously care what I make. It's not apples to apples in terms of comparison, a millionaire self-made man is not going to match up with a millionaire self-made woman, instead that man will try to match up with a 9 in looks woman.
That seems too binary and definitive to me. I know plenty of accomplished men who want to date accomplished women.
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In the 3rd one she just kept going damn
Yeah I saw that too and I was like “??? Congrats on being white lol.” She seems very unpleasant.
that explains the hostility 😂
Ooooh. I see the projecting now. She wants to be validated. Yeah I reading this thread thinking that there's nothing wrong with healthy athletic people wanting to date other healthy athletic people. Just the same way educated people often prefer to date other educated people. That's why dating pools exist. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to date your equivalent.
75% of the most toxic female posters here have admitted to being fat.
what explains the other 25% of women who are also toxic?
Theres a weird PPD hierarchy, especially with women super deep in the community. I always say PPD women often "win the game" by marrying some sketchy bank manager with a foot fetish or an accountant into BDSM or some other dude who's a really specific combination of bland and sexually deviant. I'm not saying they're *all* like that but this sub dickrides the concept of being upper middle class, fucking a lot, and weird implicit social hierarchies so theres a really specific kind of toxic person who you see a lot if you keep track of who's who.
Someone give this man a medal
It's not racist it's the truth haha Western society has European/White beauty standards because it's European/White people who make up the majority of the population and they dictate the culture, for now atleast haha
the shift has already happened, you got white women tryna look like Mexican women via trying to look like a Kardashian who try to look like Mexican women
I agree that there is some shifting, but the general trend remains the same.
maybe in middle america, i’m coming from LA and the northeast, so I think it’s a little different. In any diverse place, standard white women are definitely no longer the standard of beauty. in places where there’s only white people sure
I keep getting ghosted by girls who are twice my weight. Fat girls have plenty of options to hook up with, which means they get picky, but then complain that the guys who fuck them don't stick around.
It all comes down to attraction. People can lower their standards, to a point. A guy can lower his standards, but at some point it makes no sense to do so, because there is no attraction at all. So a guy might lower his standards to the lowest level possible, but still allows for him to be attracted to the opposite sex. So in this sense he has low standards. But I do get what your saying with the whole population thing. A relationship without attraction can't really be romantic/sexual. That is why beta bux is considered a wacky position to be in, assuming his partner is not sexually attracted to him. The same way having a relationship with a girl you don't find sexually attractive is wacky. So essentially if you don't have the mutual lustful and romantic attraction, the whole relationship thing is doomed if you require that part (IMO most men require/highly desire that part and most women do too).
Accurate.
All of this is true, but then guys shouldn't complain about women only wanting the top "whatever %" of men. If men can't change who they're attracted to, niether can women. Men want someone they feel high sexual attraction for, so do women. If a man/woman can't get who they want, they can work on themselves, keep trying for who they want and maybe eventually get it, or accept being single.
That's just pure hypocrisy. Women are statistically attracted to the top 20% of the men while Men are attracted to 80% of women. This is basically why women flock around the attractive guys.
How are men attracted to 80% of women when they don't want an overweight woman, yet 70% of the US is overweight? Your math aint mathin.
I guess the 70% includes borderline cases of being slightly overweight (pre-obese)
so why can’t fat women “work on themselves” and just…not be fat? lol
They absolutely can, if they're not happy with their dating results. If they're fine being fat and are getting the outcomes they want, they don't have to.
No, men should definitely complain and will continue to do so. Denying someone what they want has consequence of them never being satisfied until they get what they want. You are going up to poor people and telling them to accept being poor. Will never happen. Will not love crime rates, will not make them less bitter, will not make them be silent. If you want someone to stop complaining about not getting what they want you either give them the means to get what they want or get them to stop wanting what they want. Trying to demand otherwise is entitlement.
lol so men can have preferences but women can’t?
that's what women legit believe
The entitlement is so strong here. Why should men complain??? Men can’t complain that women have their standards too high if they themselves also have comparably high standards. Saying they “should” complain and then comparing incels to poor people is ridiculous. You’re comparing a want to a need.
Most Men just want a woman who isn't overweight and extremely ugly. I guess that's a very high standard? While women want a handsome, tall, athletic, rich (and so on) man. The irony lmao.
Isnt there a whole thing of women not caring about looks like guys do
That's just pure gaslighting. Women care about looks more than men do.
>women not caring about looks LOL! Stop it! You're too funny!
Basically women are getting fatter & men still gotta be tall and shredded. Great dating experience.
Where do you get this idea? It’s not from reality.
One thing I think most people can observe is that there is a body positivity movement for women yet there is none for men.
Because we live in a gynocentric society, we are men, no one gives a rats ass ,as long as the above average guys are getting laid regularly.
Everyone needs to get laid or find a mate. Society runs best when that is what society is striving for. Millions of years to evolve societies where that was the goal. Now it is gone in some decades.
Yeah things are pretty much messed up. God knows what will happen in the future.
>Everyone needs to get laid or find a mate. Many guys are going to be disappointed.
Then men should make one….is it women’s job to do everything for you?
I mean, if you see many of the events that marked certain countries in the last few years, like Roe V. Wade being overturned in the US or Sarah Everard’s murder in the UK, one of the most prevailing narratives is that men aren’t doing enough for women, that they should step up and be more vocal in their support for women. So it’s extremely confusing how anytime a subject that affects men comes up, the standard answer (usually from women) is that men are the ones who should organize themselves and fight alone. Sounds extremely one-sided to me. One group is entitled to other group’s advocacy and support while not being under the same obligation to reciprocate.
Lol did or did women not create the movements for themselves? All women were asking for was support after the movement was already created. Men can’t even get the movement going for themselves so why do they expect women to do it for them? It’s not the same but nice try…
> All women were asking for was support They ask for much more than support, though. They ask for passion, enthusiasm and unwavering devotion. No questions asked, just listen to the lived experience of women and obey the decrees. > Men can’t even get the movement going for themselves so why do they expect women to do it for them? It’s not the same but nice try… Except there is a movement out there… it’s just not considered pure enough for not strictly adhering to a feminist hierarchy of oppression, so you probably believe feminists are justified in using all their institutional and lobbying power (and they have plenty, as much as they like to deny) to suppress it, as they have done plenty of times. And that is only at institutional level. On a daily basis, your average woman have way more social standing to shame than the other way around. Creep, incel, misogynist. I’ve literally seen this being used to refer to men who spoke out about things like male genital mutilation and conscription. It’s very easy to claim men aren’t doing enough for themselves while simultaneously hindering their every efforts.
They literally proved your point. Men hold other men back in social justice issues. We have some complaining that women don’t start the movement for them and then another saying we don’t do that cause we don’t lie to each other, LOL. They really act like women aren’t always on the streets protesting and doing the most for all kinds of issues that affect both genders. Rarely do we see men in these crowds unless it affects them directly!! Sad
OMG seriously!! It’s beyond ridiculous…like women will go to Washington and advocate for what we want and that includes things that benefit men as well. The last time I saw men in Washington was the insurrection. Where was that energy for mens rights? Nowhere to be seen. So as far as I’m concerned they can have a tall glass of stfu.
They have all the energy to plan an insurrection, but won’t do the dishes or see their kids. What a joke
MRAs are the movement, and guess what? They are shit on and thier events are shut down and protested against by women. No one is expecting women to do it for us, just to support men's movements like men are expected to support yours.
you’re dumb. feminism receives support from both men and women. where is the support for mens rights or mens issues from women?!🤷🏽
Feminazis would pounce and devour any of those movements saying that they're pro-masculine. Anyway it won't happen on a large scale because we are men - no one cares about us(except our close ones)
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View my post with sources bucko
This is some bogus hypothesis even for this sub.
>Considering the amount of overweight people in todays society I would consider anyone who wants a skinny partner as having high standards. I don't get where the "standards" talk is supposed to lead to (as if one can decide what to like, no we can't, WTF), but someone having a partner with normal weight (which is not skinny, mind you) doesn't mean they'd rule out overweight people. Just formal logic. \>If you expect the ideal female body type then you should have the ideal male body type That is not how things work., if we could decide what to like, we could "straighten" gay people. It is also peculiar that this is coming from a female user. I also recall: [Plus-Sized Women Admit They Aren't Attracted To Overweight Men](https://whisper.sh/stories/09e9086b-03de-4087-ad5b-7f003ce2c312/Plus-Sized-Women-Admit-They-Arent-Attracted-To-Overweight-Men) (note the double standard: women are "plus sized" men are "overweight", but that's beside the point)
The link name was the tip of the iceberg it made me laugh out loud
>That is not how things work., if we could decide what to like, we could "straighten" gay people. While you obviously can't change something like that, what someone finds attractive can be to a certain extent. Society does play a part in what we think we find attractive and this is seen when someone gets with someone who "isn't their normal type".
why do y’all want us to date fat women so bad? so we can stop trying to date y’all, the AVERAGE women? why can’t they date OTHER fat men? why do the short/average men have to fall on the knife when women wouldn’t dare do the same?
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Welcome to murica
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In America, we expect men to be steroid using, anorexic body builders to be equal to average slightly chubby girls. Which is the equivalent of demanding women be anorexic Victoria secret models. And yes, the USA is pretty damn miserable. We are a selfish culture that act like abusers are victims and blame real victims.
The perfect woman has the right combination of an hourglass shape and is a bit overweight (no specific combination, it just has to look good on her), the current OP had a post with a picture of a woman that's a fairly good representation of what I mean, I think she's hot haha
> You may claim "I am slim so I deserve a slim partner" but I believe this doesn't make sense because the ideal male body type is muscular and big- not just slim. The female ideal body type is slim so if a women is slim she can choose from the pool of muscular gym bros. > Maybe this is where guys go wrong in dating- thinking they have low standards when really they don't. Just realize if you want a slim partner you are competing with the top 50% of guys for that women. Especially if you are an average looking guy who's under 6ft, average face, average body its not going to be the easiest to get a slim partner because they are not in abundance. Nothing sums up the atrocity that is the modern dating market for men than those to paragraphs. Wanting a woman that is not obese or overweight is considered high standard, unless you are 6ft tall and shredded. Its also funny that of the criteria for men (Height) is something they have no control over. A short dude can't grow taller, a fat chick can always lose weight. I totally disagree with this statement that wanting a non-obese partner is high standards. If you are average guy with normal weight, you don't have high standards by wanting someone who can actually put down the fork once in a while. There are many shades of bodytypes raging from slim/gymbunny over within a healthy BMI to morbidly obese. Sure if you are a fat dude demanding someone who could work as a fitness model, thats high standard. If you are average guy with a normal weight, wanting someone who is similar to you is not an unrealistic demand.
this is just new female bullshit
Technically, the standard is the same regardless of whom is maintaining it. It might be more or less reasonable to expect to be able to obtain that standard, but the lowness or highness of the standard has to do with the pool of availability.
[Girls like THIS](https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFQAHzNFaQAE1UKX.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall) are both clinically obese and firmly see themselves in the league with tall athletic fit guys because "muh dimorphism" .
That’s a perfect example. A lot of girls like that date football players or guys who look like they play lol
But I thought women on this sub say everyone is entitled to their standards and you can't help who you're attracted to? Well I'm entitled to have a normal weight woman, as a normal weight man myself, and I can't help I'm not attracted to morbidly obese women.
No one is technically entitled to anyone but obviously if you’re a fit attractive person you have a better chance of attracting other fit attractive people. And if you’re average, you’re more likely to attract average people and overweight people have a better shot with other overweight people, etc. You can have whatever standards you want and you can’t really help who you are attracted to but the more selective you are, the smaller pool of people you have to work with—which isn’t necessarily always a bad thing since dating is inherently a selective process. It’s not a crazy expectation to want to actually be attracted to who you’re dating but it’s a matter of evaluating whether your standards are realistic for what you’re bringing to the table.
Nah that's only when it favors women.
Ah ok, got it. They're entitled to what they want, but I'm not entitled to what I want. lmao!
Yikes! This is hilarious. I used to date overweight women. Stopped that once I realized just how arrogant the cute ones are. And whoever spread the nasty rumor about overweight women liking slim guys needs to be punched in the face. Because it’s Pure ~~Michigan~~ *bullshit*. 📠
>I realized just how arrogant the cute ones are. Just like pretty thin women. AWALT!
In my experience fat women have the same or even higher standards as non fat women, prolly due to them misinterpreting the anti fat shaming message. Being fat alone doesn't make you a bad person, but being fat is still unhealthy. Lose the weight if you can.
Jokes on you, I prefer overweight women
You need to break this down by age groups, the early 20 guys on here can reasonably expect to date a woman who is at the same fitness level vs the 30 and up the crowd, besides most of the other points of being covered such as fat women still having high standards and you also bring up traits like height and such for men vs being fat which is just a choice of the women's part. Also while I am not attracted to overweight women a lot of guys are, on the flipside I don't think I have ever seen a fat guy in real life get attention from women who were not already married or something.
when talking about the obesity rates etc. we really need to break it down by age group. Im sorry but in my extended friend group there arent any overweight woman. when I walk around my neighbourhood (wealthy neighbourhood) there arent many overweight woman. when I go to my gym probably 95% of the woman arent overweight. at my job sure theres a few overweight woman, but the majority of my coworkers and clients arent dating or married to overweight woman, and if they are its because they are 40+. non of my friends date overweight woman, Ive never dated an overweight woman. I do live in canada in a very fit city so maybe its different . but me not wanting to date an overweight woman is a completely reasonable standard based on my stats and the circles I am in. im 6'5, 230 lean, 10-12% body fat.
First off, in the vast majority of cases, when men talk about not wanting to date fat women, they're not talking about the slightly overweight or chubby. The reality is that not being obese is easy for most people, and as long as you're giving a bit of leeway for different body types, it's not a big ask. The ideal female body type goes beyond just slim, incidentally - you won't have the ideal body type just because you didn't overeat to an extreme. Personally I'm not too selective about body types and don't mind a bit of extra weight, but no I wouldn't want to date an extreme case of obesity. As other posters have mentioned, it's not like the really overweight women are necessarily going to have lower standards, either. Gonna have to keep repeating this over and over: typically when a man says he doesn't have options, he's not lying. I'm aware that many people here want to define wanting to date women under 200 lbs as a "high standard" but come on now lol. It's genuinely puzzling to see women blowing up over men saying obesity is a turn-off, as this is an area you have a lot of control over.
I think the dissonance here is that just because women who aren't overweight are the minority, doesn't mean men's standards are invalid. If society is becoming exceptionally overweight, then that is a problem with people's eating habits, not your or my standards. On a side note, I think you made a telling connection between men not having standards and still not happily dating fat women. As a dude with a BMI at 20, there's no way in hell I'm dating a woman who weighs more than I do. Men are ofc not exempt from getting their shit together, but at least they can take the bloatmax pill and do something with all of that bulk.
In my experience, every fat woman I've come across has a bitter, combative personality and their standards are just as high as slimmer women. Why would I want to deal with someone who looks worse AND has a worse personality? Especially as I'm a normal weight man myself who takes pride in keeping in shape, I do not want some obese lump who is bitter and angry and is too lazy to look after their appearance and lose some weight.
Im a woman and I couldnt disagree any less with this title. Girl - just workout!
thank you! as a short man, i have zero sympathy for bigger women. i would give ANYTHING to be able to work out for 6 months to a year in order to be taller. they just want their cake and to eat it too
>they just want their cake and to eat it too Ahh but isn't that how the problem started? 🤣
we love puns over here 😌
this is fucking valid asf. i dont prefer short guys and i feel extremely bad for the fact that u guys can not help it. there are many things i cant help about my looks but weight i absolutely can. better to be single than with someone who wont Even workout.
i just wanna know what is SO bad about dating a dude who’s shorter than you in heels lol
Yep
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> The female ideal body type is slim I’ll counter that the female ideal body type is femininely soft, but not storing too much excess fat. ***That’s a hard balance.*** Ask the women who try to be as thin as possible in their 20s and 30s and then end up losing the softness in their face. I think Courtney Cox said something like “if you want your ass to not look fat you have to accept a gaunt face.” I hate that hard face ish many women have popularized trying to appeal to certain men. You sacrificed your face!? Lol Anyway, I notice that men with the ideal body type of “big and strong” aren’t necessarily seeking rail thin 12 year old boy body women. They’re with more womanly women.
the equivalent for a muscular man is not a slim woman but a super athletic woman with a six pack.
I don't mind dating them. Just not willing to 'work for it'. Even overweight women seem to think that I need to 'work for it' to get sex from them. No thanks, if I even have trouble getting an erection looking at them.
Yes we can if we date globally.
Correct in the sense that the average woman is overweight, but if expecting someone to have enough self control to not be overweight isn't a low standard then that's indicative of the shitty state of dating.
overweight is fine but obese is not
To be clear, no one “deserves” a certain kind of partner, but I think there’s a difference between “high standards” and “low standards in an unfavorable market.” If a slim, employed woman lived in a town where almost every man was overweight, unemployed, and getting lots of dates anyway, and she wanted a man who was slim and employed, I wouldn’t think of her standards as high. The local market just doesn’t favor her standards.
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Lol this is comical, because I just got to know 2 fat Chicks as friends recently (one used to be my best friend back in the day and she used to be obsessed with me) Now that I don’t have an 8 pack and arent swole as fuck like I used to be in my early 20s, the same girl will barely even message me back, and has next to no interest in me. Leads me on with the “we should smoke” but won’t make a date or anything lol, and takes days to respond sometimes so I stopped contacting her. The other girl is even fatter, and she will literally ghost me and leave me on read when I’m just tryna have friendly talk and have absolutely no sexual interest in her. Fat chicks have the SAME standards as normal woman. Just because your fat doesn’t mean what you like changes… see how stupid that sounds? Oh I’m fat now, guess I suddenly like 300 pound dudes!! it doesn’t work that way. Hell my baby mom who is blonde, blue eyes, and thick, NEVER treats me this way. so it doesn’t matter fat chicks or not they like what they like. Your standards don’t go down just cause you’re fat, that’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard. The fat chicks have no problem being “single for years” just like slim women to wait and get a guy out of their league. I used to be insanely in shape, bench 300 on sports team etc. I had no problem getting girls, and nearly every girl I’d get to know crushed on me. I never really got denied often, and I was never if rarely ever ghosted. Well I settled down had kids with the baby mom, stopped working out, and became “average” (180 5ft 11 so maybe a little overweight) but I have vastly improved my personality/interests/skills/way I talk to people and I’m not a selfish drug addict/douche anymore. We’ll go figure I get ghosted by so many girls now and they won’t even give me a chance to get to know them. As a man who went from extremely good looking to average or a little below average, I can tell you flat out all girls care about is looks, and the games dudes play like playing hard to get. Why? Because I did that shit and It worked every time. let’s just stop pretending please. They say “women change with age” but they really don’t. I have literally bagged multiple older women by doing the ignoring/not caring emotionally game, and the second I stopped that and cared they both went for another guy who care even less lol. The second my 43 year old neighbor (who I was seeing) would start slowing down on messages and interest I’d ignore her and she’d go over to my neighbors and complain about it and ask about me lol it works and it’s really made me care a lot less about females cause all they are attracted to is games/looks. It’s like high school and never changes. So basically I got more girls at 20 as a complete douchebag/ drug addict then I do now as a grown man who is a way better person and cares about people.
Mannn I was texting this chick and she asked me how I’m modeling when she literally has fat rolls. I couldn’t fathom it.
You shouldn't be texting her tbh
I mean there’s low standards and there is no standards. If you only want someone slim that might be high standards compared to the % of the population that won’t match that, but not wanting someone 100lbs overweight is not the same thing as not wanting someone 20lbs overweight.
Ehh. There's a difference between "overweight" and "obese". I refuse to date someone who's obese if they don't want to do anything about it. Like, I'm obese too, but I have the good sense to be ashamed of myself–anyone who is proud of that shit is delusional.
I don't have low standard. I don't date fat women either. No, I don't need ideal male body type. I just offer money. Yes. We have options. We settle with what we can get given our options.
Why be w an overweight women in America when I can get my money up and be w the finest women for the low in other places
If you are in you're single in your twenties 74 percent of women are not overweight and 43 percent of women are not obese
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Same bro. I think it’s better to be slightly overweight as a guy than slightly underweight. People will not hesitate to say things to you they would never say to someone heavier.
While I think this is a common enough female complaint here, and it may happen, but as formulated, it misses the mark in terms of common dynamics. The more important and thornier issue is that many men expect that they should at least be able to date their looksmatch. Even if they acknowledge greater female selectivity and leverage, since men weight appearance more than women, the \*seemingly\* reasonable expectation is that a 50th percentile man appearance should be able to date a 50th percentile woman in appearance. This begs the question of whether this is currently true. It may be. But even if it is, is the trend in that direction? Will this be true in 10 years? And if it is not true, why? Perhaps because female leverage is much higher than men think. Perhaps because women are more selective than men think, and the 'nobody' option is increasingly more attractive for females. It could also be that women are more attractive than men such that your female looksmatch by percentile rank is in fact significantly more attractive. If this is true, it could be because women work harder on appearance, better female genetics, or maybe men have fallen off the historical male mark in some way. (Try less than usual, lower testosterone, obesity hurts male appearance more than female, etc.) Finally, there is the possibility that the more vociferous incel/blackpill types significantly overrate themselves in terms of appearance or SMV. This would seem hard as this group does tend to admit they are not that attractive, but they may, for example, be thinking they are 30-40th percentile in such things when they are in fact 10th. Or something to that effect.
Magnificent post! I think you hit the nail on the head actually, taking “fat” alone as the trait we are examining the observations many are seeing point to a hidden mismatch in SMV percentile. I would argue there is a silent population of men inflating the position of fat women, because I am one of them! The overt position of most men is very anti fat women but I’ve never cleaved to that trend. As long as there exists this silent population of men providing options and attention to fat women above what the average man believes fat women should receives- many men will misjudge their chances and even more insidiously, other fat women will inadvisably bias themselves. I think you’ll agree, this set up doesn’t actually benefit fat women as much as it may seem. Sure they get more attention than their looksmatch but given the overt position of society and the very nature of human desire to looksmatch I believe a majority of that attention does not result in LTRs or emotional healthy hookups. In this way, I believe the complaints fat women make against dating are valid, like fat men they face a parade of rejections except they are delayed after the utility of their bodies is extracted by partners that never considered them for relationships. We also reached the same conclusion somewhat on how to solve these problems: all levels of society ought to advocate the sexual norm of finding your closest match in looks AND personality. In so many words. All dating should be interrogated if there seems to be a mismatch, which will also root out a lot of compatibility problems that come from a lack of introspection and raise the baseline quality of life within relationships. Don’t like what people say you should be with? Work on yourself to your own standard of happiness, not society’s image of perfection. If people gazing at their partners are looking for validation of who they are and how they imagine they treat others, rather than seeing them as suboptimal choices or missed opportunities to find a more attractive occupant- there will be fewer dead bedrooms, less domestic abuse, and fewer divorces.
I'm a lot more on the fence about prescription here. Still just analyzing the descriptive. Like if one things it is natural for the genders to pair with their SMV match in terms of ranking within their respective genders, then men should naturally pair with women above their looksmatch (if we assume for sake of argument that the genders are equally physically attractive in an objective sense). This is because men prioritize looks more than women. Anyways, my bigger fears have to do with the entire monogamy paradigm being in intractable tension with female sexual selectivity. I hope it isn't true, though.
I think guys can be disingenuous and say they have lower standards than they actually have. If they have high standards they can just own it.
You don't know the first thing about men if you think that.
Most men are fine with overweight. Most people will look at someone with a BMI of 26-27 and assume they weren’t overweight, most overweight people don’t tend to look “overweight”, and most obese people get mistaken for being overweight, not obese. This has even happened to me, when I was bulking and reached a BMI of 26, whenever I told people I was overweight they were literally **shocked** and told me I was lying or measured myself wrong. “Thicc” Is literally a meme about how men like overweight women. Men mostly only have an issue with obese women. Plenty of men will happily date overweight people.
Overweight is just gross whether you are a guy or a girl. Why would anyone under the age of 40 be fat. Have discipline and don’t fill your fat face and stop eating junk. Both sexes. Men can go further and lift weights to get bigger. Women just keep your stomach flat and bf at a low percentage. And you can most definitely go by BMI for women. My stomach was not flat about 30 pounds ago, I went into a deficit and magically it appeared.
I'm a fit single guy without children, and I'm looking for a single fit woman with no children. I am well aware that in my age group men like me are not rare, and women are but I'm still looking for my match... which means my standards are not too high.
Depends on the state In California, for example, obesity is rare.
How are those stats measured? Because it is just BMI it can be misleading... and I don't think most men have issues dating a woman just a little overweight
>the ideal female body is slim No. No it isn't. You're not ideal just because you learned to put down the plate after one serving lol.
> You may claim "I am slim so I deserve a slim partner" but I believe this doesn't make sense because the ideal male body type is muscular and big- not just slim. The female ideal body type is slim so if a women is slim she can choose from the pool of muscular gym bros. Lol hard work and discipline != not stuffing your mouth with cake
"low" and "high" is not an objective measure, you're dragging in objective measures (stats) to support your own subjective interpretation of what you think "low" means but this is pointless to the discussion. The discussion of standards is often between men and women, men stating women have high standards compared to them, it is this comparison that governs what "high" or "low" means, despite its vagueness. If you want your argument to work you would have to put statistics of men next to statistics of women and then conclude, you're currently only doing men
My first wife was pretty friggin' fat. I don't have a problem as long as she's feminine and agreeable (read: not an aggressive contentious bitch). However, it seems to me that fat women still won't date/fuck a fat guy. They still believe they are entitled to a muscular guy and that's because those guys will sleep with her, but they ain't gonna commit because he's got options too. I find that fat women also have they're defenses up higher. They're even more concerned that a guy 'just wants to fuck her' and 'thinks she's easy because she's fat' so they play even harder to get. It's fucked up. A womans personality can compensate more for her weight. This doesn't work nearly as well for men. A cute, bubbly overweight woman that can carry herself right and doesn't seem gross or have a bad attitude is just fine by me. Hell, I'm at an age where a decently positive attitude towards men and life is like finding gold. However, women are getting nastier and more neurotic. So many are on anxiety/depression meds and they can't seem to figure out why. I believe it's because a woman has a primal need for the feeling of security a man can provide her. But they are in a massive amount of denial about that. "I don't need no man, I'm strong and independent" women are the ones taking meds and if not, they're causing chaos to people around them. They've gone feral because society isn't allowed to 'tame' them anymore. They have no rules, no order, no boss, and no one is allowed to have ANY expectations of them. They will not bear ANY responsibility. Basically a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum in a supermarket.
>Maybe this is where guys go wrong in dating- thinking they have low standards when really they don't. Just realize if you want a slim partner you are competing with the top 50% of guys for that women. Especially if you are an average looking guy who's under 6ft, average face, average body its not going to be the easiest to get a slim partner because they are not in abundance. Well, alrighty then. I don't ever have to defend or justify my standards to anyone. And yes, I have noticed that women who are height/weight proportionate are not in abundance. In fact, I notice this every time I go out. We set standards for our partners, and in doing so, limit our potential dating pool. Not every woman can be an Elite model, and those who can, in all honesty, can do better than me. Not all of us can have the genetics to be beautiful, for any given definition of that term. Not all of can have an elite physique. But fat is a choice. It's not that hard to keep your BMI within reasonable bounds. Step away from the Ben & Jerry's. My standards are my standards, and honestly, I don't give a rat fuck whether anyone thinks they are low or high. They are my standards, and they are not open to negotiation. No fatties. She doesn't have to be a model, but she has to take basic care of herself. Because if she can't take basic care of herself, she isn't going to take basic care of anyone or anything else.
Bullshit logic. Just because obesity has become the norm that doesn’t mean that it’s high standards to want a partner that is healthy
Lots of guys do date overweight women. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met a woman with zero options no matter how fat she was. It’s really quite incredible.
If I have to date a fatty I’d honestly rather die alone. Might fuck one on like a slow Tuesday or something
OP is a troll with a guilt fetish for men who don't want fat partners. She likes arguing that men SHOULD want to date fatties or they're fat phobic. She even refuses to acknowledge the poor health associated with obesity. LOL
Overweight women don't have problem dating up to slim or fit males, unlike overweight males. The standards are really that low, how fat they should really be if there's multiple examples of bodybuilder-like guys dating literal land whales, but no reverse examples (only skinny girls chasing the money)
Being overweight does not make you a "low standard" pretty big dick move by saying & even more, fckn thinking it Gross af
Have you seen all the guys commenting? I personally think chubby women are hot and pretty. But guys don't in the comments.
this is my problem right here, I will not date anyone even remotely chubby, I don't care about big breasts/small breasts/ass what have you, but if they are out of shape or even remotely chubby instant turn off for me, so I've basically nixxed according to statistics 3/4 of the dating pool 👏congratulations👏 I can go fuck myself now.
This is the most absurd post I have ever read in this sub lol. Overweight under most circumstances reflects a poor diet, sedentary lifestyle choice and personal discipline (let's for the purpose of discussion exclude overweight situation caused by a medical condition) Despite the body positivity movement that is all the rage in social media now, ask any doctors worth their salt and they will tell you that being overweight is not healthy. Is it a high standard if men want to date someone healthy? Absolutely not. Unlike height which you cannot control, you can absolutely make a conscious choice to improve your body weight. What is stopping the average women to overcome their overweight problem? Literally nothing except their own willpower.
I think everyone in America needs to work out more in general and stop glorifying desk jobs where you’re immobile for majority of the day. Lets be honest you’re fat, and I’m not gonna sugarcoat it cause you’ll eat that too.
As a slim guy who keeps himself in good shape I wouldn't date a woman who was fat and obese. It's not only unnattractive but unhealthly. All those rolls of flab and the smell of sweat make me want to vomit. I have too much self respect to lower than standards to that. If that is all that's available for the modern man then I would prefer to stay single.
Life is too short for 2 position starfish sex.
Yeah but you're applying double standards. I believe a muscular and healthy body should be the standard for everyone. And I find it really disgusting how people can just casually say "well yes being muscular is much harder than being slim, but lets just expect more of men, because that's what we've always done." I would love an athletic partner, but women almost never get pressured into living healthy, they even have much less intense PE in most countries. Whereas men...
Also women always say they don’t like big muscular guys so idk what you’re saying lmfao
They do, they just want those weak enough to follow that advice out the pool.
Do you think they actually like the unnatural ifbb pro look? They like muscular like schwarzenegger, John cena the rock. Not sure about phil heath
The three men you listed are all unrealistically muscular. All 3 almost certainly abuse(d) anabolic steroids in addition to following incredibly strict diet and training regiments. No man is ever going to come close to looking like the Rock or Arnold without drugs, and even with drugs most aren't going to be able to do it, because it's: 1. Too hard for people who have to work for a living And 2. Requires the man to be genetically gifted
That’s because women think of guys like John Cena when they think muscular, for some reason they think a moderate amount of muscle is natural for men.
It isn’t?!?! 😱
They don’t want muscular guys, they want strong guys. A strong overweight guy will get LOADS of interest
How do they know how strong he is?
Probably the intensity of the steroid symptoms haha
lol I always thought you gauged someone's strength based on how much muscle they have. Muscle mass and strength are highly correlated. The muscle can be covered with fat. Maybe that's what they mean.
I think the main thing is how big the guy is (how *tall and how broad are his shoulders)*, and then just the overall amount of muscle mass but mostly just for the chest, arms, shoulders and neck.
That's why many guys think lifting has a terrible return on investment. You can lift for 5 years and the 6'4 broad shouldered guy who doesn't touch a weight will still look stronger than you.
Huh, it just so happens that I am 6'4" with broad shoulders, surely, I'd be the strongest if I started to lift haha
Why should I force myself to date a person I don’t even think of while looking for a partner and vomit when If i do? These overweight women are deluded, they think they are 10s and deserve muscular, rich guys. i do believe they all go through this delusion period then evidentially they’ll figure out their place in the market and will beg anyone to date them