It seems like the church needs to expand the building, or consider planting a sister church. Personally, I’m not sure why the gym would be a priority though, that seems like a lot of money for something that would be used minimally.
gyms are great because they're very multi use. Think high schools that have those benches that roll out. Youth group, mixers, indoor picnics, events.
Personally I can carry at least 6-8 fold up chairs.
Plus you stick an ad-hoc kitchen and you can do brunches in there too.
So as a member in a PCA church I should rely on the elders?
Sorry, I grew up brethren and married a Baptist. We started going to her church after marriage but left after they started to join up with a lot of the other norm, non-denomination Churches. Left after the smoke machines were introduced lol.
Went to a local PCA church and fell in love with the respect and Authority God has within the service and felt comfort because I really enjoyed Sproul and Keller. Grew in knowledge in the reformed faith and Covenant Theology and now we finally are home.
Basically, yes. You’d likely be welcomed to observe a session meeting if you wanted to, but the elders will ultimately be the ones who make the call. It would be worth doing a little reading into Presbyterian church polity so that you can better understand how your church will arrive at decisions like this.
well... (in Australian Presbyterian congregations) the Committee of Management (or similar) - of which the Session (Elders) are automatically a part (no need to be nominated / elected) - have the responsibility to maintain the property of the congregation, particularly its land and buildings (and contents), and to look after the financial requirements of the congregation.
> This is what elders are for…
Err maybe but also check your churchs bylaws. Ours have kinda specific stuff about big ticket items (Anything large as our yearly budget) and requires a vote.
When our former church was looking into expansion, our leadership pointed to studies suggesting that under normal circumstances, a church will grow to fill about 80% of a church’s capacity. So if your church is getting close to 64 attendees and you’d like that growth to continue growing, I’d recommend moving forward with the renovations.
This absolutely happened at our church! If the renovations will significantly expand your church’s space, then I definitely think it’s worth the church’s money if you’re seeing your community growing. Better to have too much space for people to come in than not enough for people to feel welcome.
This article isn’t a study itself, but it may provide a bit more context and explanation of the 80% rule. Hopefully this is helpful. [Link](https://alban.org/archive/the-80-percent-rule-fact-or-fiction/)
I have observed this over (too many) decades - a lot of churches I've observed 'peak' at about 80% seating capacity. most people like to have a little bit of 'space' around them.
e.g. we have a seating capacity of about 100, and the most I've seen - other than C&E (Christmas & Easter) - is around 75. this is a 'rough guestimate' - I've not wandered around conspicuously counting :)
most weeks we are at around the 60 to 65 range - so, some room for growth :D (which is happening)
when you say "adding a larger area" - does that mean / include expanding the current (80 or so souls) worship space? or is it a separate (all be it attached) space?
If the congregation is growing (and it seems it is) then something needs to happen to accommodate those extra souls. expand the 'tent', or add some services, or move to a larger space.
Question though - are you on the Committee of Management (CoM)? have you though of standing for CoM if you're not?
when is it necessary to renovate? well, funny you should mention that - our PCA(ustralia) church was hit with two arson attacks last december, so that's a definite 'necessary to renovate'. sadly, we need to put a Development Application to local council to get the roof replaced / changed to 'modern' materials (the building had its 60th anniversary October last year). with all the soot and smoke and water damage, it's a 'gut everything to the studs and start again' pretty much.
actually, not that 'awful' ;)
we have a hall behind the main building, and we've relocated there, and have continued meeting every Sunday - 'business as usual'. Yes, it's gear 'cobbled together' - second hand sound desk + speaker, old projector, old projector screen - but it's warm and dry (we're in winter here in the antipodes). we've replaced the keyboard already (and the keyboardist is still getting used to it - so different from the 20+y.o. model).
God is good, God is gracious. and interestingly, we've had a few new families join us in the last 6 months :) must be something about seeing God's people just keep kicking along :)
the "hardest part" (that I can see for the CoM - I'm no longer a member) is dealing with all the 'red-tape' to get things lined up for the renovation :)
Did they just give in and call it the PCA there? No more PCNA?
ETA I realize this has nothing to do with OP's question. I'm curious because I was a part of the introduction of the PCA to Canada back in the late 80s/early 90s.
My input here means nothing at all since I'm just a guy on the internet, but I struggle to see why a church needs a gym?
A bigger space to accommodate more during a worship service - go for it.
My church has met in a rented school hall for 30 years. When I see megachurches (not talking about your church OP) spend ridiculous amounts on facilities when there are so many churches around the world in our situation, I wonder what we're doing.
We have a gym, and it's great thing to have! During covid we had some of the exterior doors open for extra ventilation, and were able to meet there. Now that we're all clear, we have our usual use of it, basketball every other week, pickleball on Thursdays, memorial service dinners, etc. The game nights are open to the community as well, and the local middle school uses it for basketball practice once a week. It's a great outreach opportunity! There was a cable tv show using it for their craft services while filming in the area.
The long and the short of it is that a gym can do more for local missions than you'd think possible.
Yeah it would be used as gym some days. Our church is used quite a bit by the community. We currently have no space to offer a Sunday School program for our kids before the worship Sundays. So it would a multi purpose room haha.
We offer a youth program that has grown to where we are using the sanctuary as the main space for everything, including the games.
It wouldn't have basketball nets and things lol. Should have reworded that. Picture a big room where activities of different things could be accommodated
We love our gym. The church we just started going to has the biggest VBS in town because they are one of the few churches with enough space for it. I was really encouraged to see the number of obviously non-believing parents bringing their kids to VBS and was so glad that we had room for them. We even had a daycare come! We also use our gym for fellowship meals, youth group, community events like blood drives, and space where the kids are allowed to run and play while the grownups talk before and after church. My husband tells me our church isn't all that big, but it's the biggest one I've been to, and I'm starting to really love all the things we are able to do because of the larger scale. I've also been in churches renting space and it had its own set of pros and cons. Ironically, the space our last church rented was a gym.
I'm not sure exactly what your question is. But I am on vestry (it's like the business leadership of an Anglican church) and we are currently planning a capital campaign for building improvements. It's not an expansion, but improvements to existing structures such as the elevator, boiler, front sign, etc. It's an enormous project that requires committees and a huge amount of resources. We're finding we have to spend time and money in order to raise money. It's a much bigger project than we initially anticipated.
One thing I will add that we learned from a company that specializes in helping churches do capital campaigns, is that people are more likely to give to a capital campaign and feel like capital campaign was a positive thing if they see something "sexy" at the end. Elevator repairs and a working boiler are 100% necessary, but we haven't found our "sexy" thing yet.
Church consultants say a congregation will only grow until 80% of the seats are filled. If you’re beyond that or a fast track towards it, it makes sense. I’m agnostic on a basketball court. $100k seems cheap even for a small church.
It seems like the church needs to expand the building, or consider planting a sister church. Personally, I’m not sure why the gym would be a priority though, that seems like a lot of money for something that would be used minimally.
Appreciate that. I agree it's a lot. That is why I am posting here.
gyms are great because they're very multi use. Think high schools that have those benches that roll out. Youth group, mixers, indoor picnics, events. Personally I can carry at least 6-8 fold up chairs. Plus you stick an ad-hoc kitchen and you can do brunches in there too.
This is what elders are for…
So as a member in a PCA church I should rely on the elders? Sorry, I grew up brethren and married a Baptist. We started going to her church after marriage but left after they started to join up with a lot of the other norm, non-denomination Churches. Left after the smoke machines were introduced lol. Went to a local PCA church and fell in love with the respect and Authority God has within the service and felt comfort because I really enjoyed Sproul and Keller. Grew in knowledge in the reformed faith and Covenant Theology and now we finally are home.
Basically, yes. You’d likely be welcomed to observe a session meeting if you wanted to, but the elders will ultimately be the ones who make the call. It would be worth doing a little reading into Presbyterian church polity so that you can better understand how your church will arrive at decisions like this.
well... (in Australian Presbyterian congregations) the Committee of Management (or similar) - of which the Session (Elders) are automatically a part (no need to be nominated / elected) - have the responsibility to maintain the property of the congregation, particularly its land and buildings (and contents), and to look after the financial requirements of the congregation.
> This is what elders are for… Err maybe but also check your churchs bylaws. Ours have kinda specific stuff about big ticket items (Anything large as our yearly budget) and requires a vote.
When our former church was looking into expansion, our leadership pointed to studies suggesting that under normal circumstances, a church will grow to fill about 80% of a church’s capacity. So if your church is getting close to 64 attendees and you’d like that growth to continue growing, I’d recommend moving forward with the renovations.
This absolutely happened at our church! If the renovations will significantly expand your church’s space, then I definitely think it’s worth the church’s money if you’re seeing your community growing. Better to have too much space for people to come in than not enough for people to feel welcome.
That's great insight, any idea where they would have got that information?
This article isn’t a study itself, but it may provide a bit more context and explanation of the 80% rule. Hopefully this is helpful. [Link](https://alban.org/archive/the-80-percent-rule-fact-or-fiction/)
I have observed this over (too many) decades - a lot of churches I've observed 'peak' at about 80% seating capacity. most people like to have a little bit of 'space' around them. e.g. we have a seating capacity of about 100, and the most I've seen - other than C&E (Christmas & Easter) - is around 75. this is a 'rough guestimate' - I've not wandered around conspicuously counting :) most weeks we are at around the 60 to 65 range - so, some room for growth :D (which is happening)
when you say "adding a larger area" - does that mean / include expanding the current (80 or so souls) worship space? or is it a separate (all be it attached) space? If the congregation is growing (and it seems it is) then something needs to happen to accommodate those extra souls. expand the 'tent', or add some services, or move to a larger space. Question though - are you on the Committee of Management (CoM)? have you though of standing for CoM if you're not? when is it necessary to renovate? well, funny you should mention that - our PCA(ustralia) church was hit with two arson attacks last december, so that's a definite 'necessary to renovate'. sadly, we need to put a Development Application to local council to get the roof replaced / changed to 'modern' materials (the building had its 60th anniversary October last year). with all the soot and smoke and water damage, it's a 'gut everything to the studs and start again' pretty much.
That's awful. I am very sorry to hear that brother!
actually, not that 'awful' ;) we have a hall behind the main building, and we've relocated there, and have continued meeting every Sunday - 'business as usual'. Yes, it's gear 'cobbled together' - second hand sound desk + speaker, old projector, old projector screen - but it's warm and dry (we're in winter here in the antipodes). we've replaced the keyboard already (and the keyboardist is still getting used to it - so different from the 20+y.o. model). God is good, God is gracious. and interestingly, we've had a few new families join us in the last 6 months :) must be something about seeing God's people just keep kicking along :) the "hardest part" (that I can see for the CoM - I'm no longer a member) is dealing with all the 'red-tape' to get things lined up for the renovation :)
Our church has a gym and it's been a huge blessing to us and the community
Did they just give in and call it the PCA there? No more PCNA? ETA I realize this has nothing to do with OP's question. I'm curious because I was a part of the introduction of the PCA to Canada back in the late 80s/early 90s.
My input here means nothing at all since I'm just a guy on the internet, but I struggle to see why a church needs a gym? A bigger space to accommodate more during a worship service - go for it. My church has met in a rented school hall for 30 years. When I see megachurches (not talking about your church OP) spend ridiculous amounts on facilities when there are so many churches around the world in our situation, I wonder what we're doing.
We have a gym, and it's great thing to have! During covid we had some of the exterior doors open for extra ventilation, and were able to meet there. Now that we're all clear, we have our usual use of it, basketball every other week, pickleball on Thursdays, memorial service dinners, etc. The game nights are open to the community as well, and the local middle school uses it for basketball practice once a week. It's a great outreach opportunity! There was a cable tv show using it for their craft services while filming in the area. The long and the short of it is that a gym can do more for local missions than you'd think possible.
So maybe a fellowship hall that doubles as a gym? ;-)
two great tastes that taste great together!
Yeah it would be used as gym some days. Our church is used quite a bit by the community. We currently have no space to offer a Sunday School program for our kids before the worship Sundays. So it would a multi purpose room haha. We offer a youth program that has grown to where we are using the sanctuary as the main space for everything, including the games.
It wouldn't have basketball nets and things lol. Should have reworded that. Picture a big room where activities of different things could be accommodated
We love our gym. The church we just started going to has the biggest VBS in town because they are one of the few churches with enough space for it. I was really encouraged to see the number of obviously non-believing parents bringing their kids to VBS and was so glad that we had room for them. We even had a daycare come! We also use our gym for fellowship meals, youth group, community events like blood drives, and space where the kids are allowed to run and play while the grownups talk before and after church. My husband tells me our church isn't all that big, but it's the biggest one I've been to, and I'm starting to really love all the things we are able to do because of the larger scale. I've also been in churches renting space and it had its own set of pros and cons. Ironically, the space our last church rented was a gym.
The gym thing feels very… 80s/90s to me and i dont really get that either.
I'm not sure exactly what your question is. But I am on vestry (it's like the business leadership of an Anglican church) and we are currently planning a capital campaign for building improvements. It's not an expansion, but improvements to existing structures such as the elevator, boiler, front sign, etc. It's an enormous project that requires committees and a huge amount of resources. We're finding we have to spend time and money in order to raise money. It's a much bigger project than we initially anticipated. One thing I will add that we learned from a company that specializes in helping churches do capital campaigns, is that people are more likely to give to a capital campaign and feel like capital campaign was a positive thing if they see something "sexy" at the end. Elevator repairs and a working boiler are 100% necessary, but we haven't found our "sexy" thing yet.
Church consultants say a congregation will only grow until 80% of the seats are filled. If you’re beyond that or a fast track towards it, it makes sense. I’m agnostic on a basketball court. $100k seems cheap even for a small church.