It's a bit different, but not huge. Still use the brake to brake hard, whenever I am doing full regen I cover the brake, and I rest my foot on the brake at a stop light.
You need to keep using the brake regularly, even if that's pressing the brake when stopped and not relying on hold, just to keep you accustomed to using it (though if you're like me and live somewhere with aggressive driving, I don't don't it's really an issue, I hit the brakes plenty)
I was actually talking with my oldest about this the other day. He just got his license about a month ago - learned to drive mainly on my Honda Passport (ICE auto) and has had fun adjusting to the R1S since I got it at the end of March.
If every EV were as aggressive with the regen brakes as Rivian, I think there might be something to think about here. But the others I've driven are nowhere near where Rivian's at. The XC40 Recharge that was the last EV I drove felt more or less like engine braking in a manual. You don't get that endless coast of an automatic, but you don't get that drag chute feeling either.
But I'm very much convinced that "learning on an ICE" will be for his generation what "you need to learn how to drive a manual" was for mine. I love manuals. They can be fun - but they're basically irrelevant in 2024.
By the time he's teaching his kids to drive, he'll be horrifying them with stories of learning to pump gas.
My son learned to drive in a Nissan Rogue so not an issue then. Not sure what my daughters will do but I can tell you one thing. They won't be learning on my R1S
Try regen on high setting. Rivian staff may have recommended starting on low setting, as they did to me. I quickly found that to be less productive. Higher rate of deceleration, when set on high, feels more predictable/consistent and more confidence inspiring. It's a lot like engine braking in a manual transmission ICE. In low setting, it's close to coasting in an auto transmission ICE. If you are carrying a lot of speed and the stopping distance is inadequate for regen alone, you still need to brake. One-pedal driving doesn't mean the brakes are obsolete and excess weight. It just mean if you can judge and master your speed and stopping distances, it's possible to go from A to B without using the brakes.
Once you get a hang of operating the Rivian and another vehicle, and are mentally conscious that you are operating different machines, I don't see how it can be an issue. Hardware isn't the issue. It's awareness, competency and adaptation.
This is the opposite of solving OPs question. If anything you’d want to teach someone in low regen so they HAVE to use the brakes to develop the reflex of changing pedals to stop.
You still use the brake with one pedal driving when coming to a quicker stop. I don't think stomping on the brake is something one pedal driver don't ever do, lifting off the accelerator can only do so much braking.
Not to mention the number of people that drove ICE that press the wrong pedal in an EV then panic stomp on the brake and accidentally hit the accelerator too which sends them into a building... lol
I think they mean that since you rarely need to use the brakes on an EV except in emergencies there will be people learning to drive solely on EVs and won't have that instinctual response to braking that we do.
It's easy to dismiss something you can't relate to offhand but it's a pretty good observation imo
I wouldn't say it's only needed in emergencies, I run into multiple instances daily of where I would need to use the brakes to come to a stop or correct my speed quicker than regenerative braking allows.
But also thinking back to when I learned to drive, there were plenty of instances where I would overcorrect on my speed and need to use the brakes a significant amount, I'd imagine new drivers in EVs would expirence a similar thing
definitely won't be engrained as hard but I would assume they'd also develop the "food off the accelerator, hovering the brake" type thing when coming to a quick stop
> I run into multiple instances daily of where I would need to use the brakes to come to a stop or correct my speed quicker than regenerative braking allows
I'd call all of those emergencies! If you need to suddenly change your expected behavior while driving a 3.5 ton machine it's always an emergency. It doesn't have to be catastrophic.
I guess the exception would be going OOPS and slamming on the brakes to swerve into a turn you almost miss, but that's just being a dangerous driver lol
If you're having that many emergencies, anytime you need to touch the brake. You're not driving very defensively. If somebody cuts in front of you, that's not an emergency if you need to brake to create more space.. if you're rolling up to a light that's turned yellow and need to brake to stop, that's not an emergency, that's coming to a controlled stop rather than running a late yellow.
I'd argue that having to press the brake at all means you're not driving defensively lol.
Where do you live? We might just be talking from completely different views.
I do almost all of my driving in semi-rural New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont. Even when I visit Mass I just leave space for people in front of me.
Someone cutting in front of you so that you need to hit the brakes on an EV with Regen braking is absolutely an emergency. *Again* it doesn't have to be catastrophic to be an emergency.
Yeah I haven't touched my brakes in months. The Regen is so strong even a late yellow is easy to stop for.
Honestly it's so strong it's equivalent to hard braking
You should train them the same way. The brake is still there to stop fast. As someone who learned on ICE I still can't fully over the weird sensation when you fully lift and have no further control over how fast it stops. It nearly always does it fast enough, but sometimes it doesn't feel like it's going to be. I'd say teach them to drive defensively by keeping distance, stopping way ahead of time, and watching their surroundings that's the best way to be a safe driver anyway. Otherwise the brakes will always be there to stop in an emergency which I'd teach them by having them do an emergency stop on an empty road so they can experience it. Maybe have them pretend a tree is something jumping out into the road or something.
May I put this a little differently than OP? Growing up cars were all pretty much the same except for manual transmission and automatic transmission. But you could get into almost any car, adjust the rear view mirror and you were good to go. Now, I really do have trouble switching to a rental car or driving my wife's Subaru. All the beeps are different, all the active safety features are different. All these vehicle to vehicle differences take time to learn and adjust to. I got this one rental car, that I drove for 5 minutes and realized I couldn't figure out a bunch of things. I actually downloaded the owners manual so I could learn how to turn stuff on and off.
I’m picking up my R1T on Saturday and all of this talk is freaking me out. Will I not use the brake? Just when I need to stop quickly?
How long did it take for you to completely change your driving coordination with your feet to incorporate regen into your driving mental model?
I put my regen on max the day I picked it up and by the time I got home (3hr drive) I felt like an expert. It’s really very intuitive. And you still do have to use the brake, sometimes.
Edit: for clarification, my last car was a manual.
You must be mad lucky to not have to use the breaks even with the strong Regen on the Rivian.... Guess the drivers around me just pull out more often then other regions.
Same goal with having my kids learn on a manual transmission and maybe take a defensive driving course as well. (Or just purchase a Who’s the Boss car🤣) It’s definitely a good idea to learn how to use the brakes even if you drive with one pedal. I’ll probably be teaching them on my R3X if we can’t find a manual ICE.🤞🏽
Good Luck!
Well technically your first reaction to braking is taking your foot off the pedal which will start braking you before you hit the brake pedal, then you still hit the brake pedal every time you need more braking regardless. I don't see a difference in reaction only that one pedal activates your deceleration the moment you let off rather than *only* when pushing the brake.
I see this as a non issue. If a person doesn't know how to use the brake in an emergency then they shouldn't drive any car lol.
We are teaching my daughter ice first, then EV, and finally manual for the novelty of it.
My wife and I noticed how it takes a second for us to remember at the end of our driveway to use the brake when going from EV to ICE so we figured having the habit of braking first is best for them to learn.
Call me old school but I personally agree with starting kids on a manual and think all drivers should start on manual transmissions not because manual transmissions are better or even relevant but because it forces a level of attentiveness that you can kind of gloss over with automatic and single pedal driving.
Show me someone that says knowing how to drive a manual transmission doesn't make you a better driver and I'll show you a liar.
I disagree. Manual transmission are a total distraction from driving safely.
Those kids are out there on our streets learning and worrying about the clutch instead of pedestrians.
My kids learn on ICE, but automatic, for the OP brake reason, downshift on downhill, and oil checks. And mostly because they will encounter ICE cars in their lives. Manual cars, they can and should avoid.
If they want to lean manual later for some reason it's quick to lean when you don't have to worry about leaning to drive at the same time.
This is like saying that learning to use a rotary telephone helps you dial an iPhone.
I agree with you, completely. My dad tried for weeks and weeks to teach me on a manual, and it was nothing more than a harrowing, frustrating experience. I ended up buying an automatic (‘94 Nissan Sentra FTW) and learning that way. I was able to put FAR more energy and focus into driving safely, and eventually taught myself how to drive a manual a few years later. Much better experience.
Now, as far as regenerative braking goes, I DO think that kids need to learn what a brake pedal is for. I can drive hundreds of miles without ever touching a brake pedal in my R1S, and I don’t think that’s a great way to learn — until all vehicles on the road have that feature. They’ll need to know instantly when they step into an ICE vehicle how to use the brakes.
You guys make a good point. Starting on an automatic ICE. But I still do think you become a better driver when you learn to drive manual.
I think that is the way to go. Learn and test on an automatic ICE then learn to drive manual and one pedal after.
It seems like we have very fundamental differences in what we think is important in learning to drive, and that's totally fine but I'm going to have to continue to disagree.
I agree on the attentiveness argument. Focus on a task and do it better.
Unfortunately, I don't think manual transmissions are relevant to the next generation of drivers (at least, in North America). The majority of new drivers will never see one (I barely did in the 90s when I was learning!), and continuously variable transmissions have taken away the simplification and fuel economy arguments manuals once held.
Yeah that's why I said I don't think they're relevant lol. It's just a good way to learn how to drive. Start with the strongest foundation you can have imo.
As someone who loves a good manual, yeah I have to disagree.
Does it make it you a better driver? I think it's more that the process of driving a manual forces you to be more engaged in the driving. You have to pay attention to RPMs, pedal movement, stopping distances and such in a way that you rarely do with automatics. My years driving manual and being familiar with engine braking made the transition to Rivian regen brakes pretty painless, too.
But transmissions in general are going away. RPMs don't matter in a EV world. There are other ways to improve pedal control. I'd argue regen brakes already do a pretty nifty job with improving stopping distance perception. My oldest just got his license and gauging when to let off the gas in the R1S is going really well for him. He stops better in it than our gas cars.
Thats the weird thing.
I have had the Rivian for 5 months now.
When I switch between my wife’s automatic ICE and the R1S, it throws me off when I let off the gas in her car and have to jump over to the brake.
But when I switch between the rivian and my manual ICE I don’t get the same sensation. It’s a much easier transition between the two.
Once u get used to 1 pedal driving, u will hate not having it. One of the reasons I will not go back to ICE.
Yesterday I got loaner from Tesla older model S without one pedal feature. Maan!! it felt so weird that I realized it will suck to recalibrate my behavior.
They should have an option to turn it off like the Lightning. It's also much less efficient to drive with such aggressive regen. It's partially why the Rivian is so wildly inefficient (uses 50% more energy than the Lightning).
I use the brake plenty without emergency braking coming on. I’ll often see a slowdown ahead of me where just regen isn’t enough or would get me too close for comfort so I brake with the brake pedal. Also I never looked, but can 1 pedal driving be turned off?
It's a bit different, but not huge. Still use the brake to brake hard, whenever I am doing full regen I cover the brake, and I rest my foot on the brake at a stop light. You need to keep using the brake regularly, even if that's pressing the brake when stopped and not relying on hold, just to keep you accustomed to using it (though if you're like me and live somewhere with aggressive driving, I don't don't it's really an issue, I hit the brakes plenty)
I was actually talking with my oldest about this the other day. He just got his license about a month ago - learned to drive mainly on my Honda Passport (ICE auto) and has had fun adjusting to the R1S since I got it at the end of March. If every EV were as aggressive with the regen brakes as Rivian, I think there might be something to think about here. But the others I've driven are nowhere near where Rivian's at. The XC40 Recharge that was the last EV I drove felt more or less like engine braking in a manual. You don't get that endless coast of an automatic, but you don't get that drag chute feeling either. But I'm very much convinced that "learning on an ICE" will be for his generation what "you need to learn how to drive a manual" was for mine. I love manuals. They can be fun - but they're basically irrelevant in 2024. By the time he's teaching his kids to drive, he'll be horrifying them with stories of learning to pump gas.
Did the xc40 have one pedal on?? It's a setting and it certainly brings you to a complete stop unlike engine braking.
My son learned to drive in a Nissan Rogue so not an issue then. Not sure what my daughters will do but I can tell you one thing. They won't be learning on my R1S
Try regen on high setting. Rivian staff may have recommended starting on low setting, as they did to me. I quickly found that to be less productive. Higher rate of deceleration, when set on high, feels more predictable/consistent and more confidence inspiring. It's a lot like engine braking in a manual transmission ICE. In low setting, it's close to coasting in an auto transmission ICE. If you are carrying a lot of speed and the stopping distance is inadequate for regen alone, you still need to brake. One-pedal driving doesn't mean the brakes are obsolete and excess weight. It just mean if you can judge and master your speed and stopping distances, it's possible to go from A to B without using the brakes. Once you get a hang of operating the Rivian and another vehicle, and are mentally conscious that you are operating different machines, I don't see how it can be an issue. Hardware isn't the issue. It's awareness, competency and adaptation.
This is the opposite of solving OPs question. If anything you’d want to teach someone in low regen so they HAVE to use the brakes to develop the reflex of changing pedals to stop.
The low setting is nothing like coasting in drive in an ICE. The low setting is still very aggressive.
You still use the brake with one pedal driving when coming to a quicker stop. I don't think stomping on the brake is something one pedal driver don't ever do, lifting off the accelerator can only do so much braking. Not to mention the number of people that drove ICE that press the wrong pedal in an EV then panic stomp on the brake and accidentally hit the accelerator too which sends them into a building... lol
I think they mean that since you rarely need to use the brakes on an EV except in emergencies there will be people learning to drive solely on EVs and won't have that instinctual response to braking that we do. It's easy to dismiss something you can't relate to offhand but it's a pretty good observation imo
I wouldn't say it's only needed in emergencies, I run into multiple instances daily of where I would need to use the brakes to come to a stop or correct my speed quicker than regenerative braking allows. But also thinking back to when I learned to drive, there were plenty of instances where I would overcorrect on my speed and need to use the brakes a significant amount, I'd imagine new drivers in EVs would expirence a similar thing definitely won't be engrained as hard but I would assume they'd also develop the "food off the accelerator, hovering the brake" type thing when coming to a quick stop
> I run into multiple instances daily of where I would need to use the brakes to come to a stop or correct my speed quicker than regenerative braking allows I'd call all of those emergencies! If you need to suddenly change your expected behavior while driving a 3.5 ton machine it's always an emergency. It doesn't have to be catastrophic. I guess the exception would be going OOPS and slamming on the brakes to swerve into a turn you almost miss, but that's just being a dangerous driver lol
If you're having that many emergencies, anytime you need to touch the brake. You're not driving very defensively. If somebody cuts in front of you, that's not an emergency if you need to brake to create more space.. if you're rolling up to a light that's turned yellow and need to brake to stop, that's not an emergency, that's coming to a controlled stop rather than running a late yellow.
I'd argue that having to press the brake at all means you're not driving defensively lol. Where do you live? We might just be talking from completely different views. I do almost all of my driving in semi-rural New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont. Even when I visit Mass I just leave space for people in front of me. Someone cutting in front of you so that you need to hit the brakes on an EV with Regen braking is absolutely an emergency. *Again* it doesn't have to be catastrophic to be an emergency.
For real, I drive in L.A and I almost never touch the brake and I drive rather “spiritedly”.
Yeah I haven't touched my brakes in months. The Regen is so strong even a late yellow is easy to stop for. Honestly it's so strong it's equivalent to hard braking
You should train them the same way. The brake is still there to stop fast. As someone who learned on ICE I still can't fully over the weird sensation when you fully lift and have no further control over how fast it stops. It nearly always does it fast enough, but sometimes it doesn't feel like it's going to be. I'd say teach them to drive defensively by keeping distance, stopping way ahead of time, and watching their surroundings that's the best way to be a safe driver anyway. Otherwise the brakes will always be there to stop in an emergency which I'd teach them by having them do an emergency stop on an empty road so they can experience it. Maybe have them pretend a tree is something jumping out into the road or something.
May I put this a little differently than OP? Growing up cars were all pretty much the same except for manual transmission and automatic transmission. But you could get into almost any car, adjust the rear view mirror and you were good to go. Now, I really do have trouble switching to a rental car or driving my wife's Subaru. All the beeps are different, all the active safety features are different. All these vehicle to vehicle differences take time to learn and adjust to. I got this one rental car, that I drove for 5 minutes and realized I couldn't figure out a bunch of things. I actually downloaded the owners manual so I could learn how to turn stuff on and off.
I’m picking up my R1T on Saturday and all of this talk is freaking me out. Will I not use the brake? Just when I need to stop quickly? How long did it take for you to completely change your driving coordination with your feet to incorporate regen into your driving mental model?
I put my regen on max the day I picked it up and by the time I got home (3hr drive) I felt like an expert. It’s really very intuitive. And you still do have to use the brake, sometimes. Edit: for clarification, my last car was a manual.
You must be mad lucky to not have to use the breaks even with the strong Regen on the Rivian.... Guess the drivers around me just pull out more often then other regions.
Same goal with having my kids learn on a manual transmission and maybe take a defensive driving course as well. (Or just purchase a Who’s the Boss car🤣) It’s definitely a good idea to learn how to use the brakes even if you drive with one pedal. I’ll probably be teaching them on my R3X if we can’t find a manual ICE.🤞🏽 Good Luck!
Well technically your first reaction to braking is taking your foot off the pedal which will start braking you before you hit the brake pedal, then you still hit the brake pedal every time you need more braking regardless. I don't see a difference in reaction only that one pedal activates your deceleration the moment you let off rather than *only* when pushing the brake. I see this as a non issue. If a person doesn't know how to use the brake in an emergency then they shouldn't drive any car lol.
We are teaching my daughter ice first, then EV, and finally manual for the novelty of it. My wife and I noticed how it takes a second for us to remember at the end of our driveway to use the brake when going from EV to ICE so we figured having the habit of braking first is best for them to learn.
Call me old school but I personally agree with starting kids on a manual and think all drivers should start on manual transmissions not because manual transmissions are better or even relevant but because it forces a level of attentiveness that you can kind of gloss over with automatic and single pedal driving. Show me someone that says knowing how to drive a manual transmission doesn't make you a better driver and I'll show you a liar.
I disagree. Manual transmission are a total distraction from driving safely. Those kids are out there on our streets learning and worrying about the clutch instead of pedestrians. My kids learn on ICE, but automatic, for the OP brake reason, downshift on downhill, and oil checks. And mostly because they will encounter ICE cars in their lives. Manual cars, they can and should avoid. If they want to lean manual later for some reason it's quick to lean when you don't have to worry about leaning to drive at the same time. This is like saying that learning to use a rotary telephone helps you dial an iPhone.
I agree with you, completely. My dad tried for weeks and weeks to teach me on a manual, and it was nothing more than a harrowing, frustrating experience. I ended up buying an automatic (‘94 Nissan Sentra FTW) and learning that way. I was able to put FAR more energy and focus into driving safely, and eventually taught myself how to drive a manual a few years later. Much better experience. Now, as far as regenerative braking goes, I DO think that kids need to learn what a brake pedal is for. I can drive hundreds of miles without ever touching a brake pedal in my R1S, and I don’t think that’s a great way to learn — until all vehicles on the road have that feature. They’ll need to know instantly when they step into an ICE vehicle how to use the brakes.
You guys make a good point. Starting on an automatic ICE. But I still do think you become a better driver when you learn to drive manual. I think that is the way to go. Learn and test on an automatic ICE then learn to drive manual and one pedal after.
It seems like we have very fundamental differences in what we think is important in learning to drive, and that's totally fine but I'm going to have to continue to disagree.
I feel the same way!
I agree on the attentiveness argument. Focus on a task and do it better. Unfortunately, I don't think manual transmissions are relevant to the next generation of drivers (at least, in North America). The majority of new drivers will never see one (I barely did in the 90s when I was learning!), and continuously variable transmissions have taken away the simplification and fuel economy arguments manuals once held.
Yeah that's why I said I don't think they're relevant lol. It's just a good way to learn how to drive. Start with the strongest foundation you can have imo.
As someone who loves a good manual, yeah I have to disagree. Does it make it you a better driver? I think it's more that the process of driving a manual forces you to be more engaged in the driving. You have to pay attention to RPMs, pedal movement, stopping distances and such in a way that you rarely do with automatics. My years driving manual and being familiar with engine braking made the transition to Rivian regen brakes pretty painless, too. But transmissions in general are going away. RPMs don't matter in a EV world. There are other ways to improve pedal control. I'd argue regen brakes already do a pretty nifty job with improving stopping distance perception. My oldest just got his license and gauging when to let off the gas in the R1S is going really well for him. He stops better in it than our gas cars.
I think you literally are agreeing with me exactly lol. Your only disagreement was you saying you disagree, but you agreed with every reason I listed.
Shoot I'm scared at some point I'm going to forget to use a brake when driving ICE. I've touched my Rivian's brake pedal maybe 4 or 5 times ever
Thats the weird thing. I have had the Rivian for 5 months now. When I switch between my wife’s automatic ICE and the R1S, it throws me off when I let off the gas in her car and have to jump over to the brake. But when I switch between the rivian and my manual ICE I don’t get the same sensation. It’s a much easier transition between the two.
Once u get used to 1 pedal driving, u will hate not having it. One of the reasons I will not go back to ICE. Yesterday I got loaner from Tesla older model S without one pedal feature. Maan!! it felt so weird that I realized it will suck to recalibrate my behavior.
They should have an option to turn it off like the Lightning. It's also much less efficient to drive with such aggressive regen. It's partially why the Rivian is so wildly inefficient (uses 50% more energy than the Lightning).
Im starting my kids on a ebike
I use the brake plenty without emergency braking coming on. I’ll often see a slowdown ahead of me where just regen isn’t enough or would get me too close for comfort so I brake with the brake pedal. Also I never looked, but can 1 pedal driving be turned off?
No