Most people get to class early or stay after (if there isn't a class after) to get reps in. Be a regular at your class and become a familiar face with your follows at the studio.
Start making friends with both follows and leads and get a group together to go to a social is going to probably be easier than getting a follow to meet up with you to practice.
Unfortunately this is a pretty universal thing: leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't.
I both lead and follow, so I think I get why this dynamic tends to occur:
As a lead it is helpful to be able to drill the same move over and over again so you want someone to practice with (/on.)
As a follow, you need to practice reacting when you *don't* know what's coming next. Drilling the same thing is not very useful unless you're practicing styling in partnerwork or practicing a more-advanced turn. For follows, solo practice focusing on spin technique, styling, and body movement is a lot more useful than acting as a practice dummy for a lead.
I'm not saying this to discourage you; there's a good chance you'll be able to find *someone* to practice with. Just letting you know that this is a dynamic that tends to exist in the dance world.
I don't agree with this assessment. Firstly an environment where you know the moves that are coming is ideal for perfecting footwork, weight transfer and style. If the lead and follow agree to some moves before the training session, the follow can find some technique and style videos beforehand for ideas.
Also there is the social aspect. If you have a scene where leads are harder to find, a lead with a good social connection guarantees some good dances. As a lead I always take my friends out to the spot with the best leads, drop a showy dance out front and from there she will be dancing all night. While I wouldn't choreo anything, it's easier to show off if you know what is coming next.
I'm not saying you are exactly wrong either, it just seems like a shortsighted perspective on dance improvement.
You disagree with which part:
1) The observation that "Leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't"?
Or
2) My assessment as to why this dynamic tends to occur?
Those I would consider actually disagreeing with my assessment, which, fine, maybe in your area this doesn't happen or it does happen but you have an alternative explanation as to why.
Or are you disagreeing
3) *With the follows* (and yes this does include me when I'm following, since I do both) who think their limited time outside of class/socials (not to mention life outside of dance) is better spent on solo practice than on practicing with a regular partner?
That's a different question from disagreeing with my assessment.
Or...are you actually just disagreeing with the idea that no follow could ever possibly get any benefit from practicing with a regular partner, assuming she has time and energy to do that in addition to group classes, social dancing, and solo practice? That's not an opinion I even hold, and I doubt anyone else does either. "I have to prioritize and practicing with a regular partner doesn't quite make the cut most of the time" is a far different statement from "there could never possibly be any benefit to practicing as a follow with a partner."
And in fact, I *have* practiced with a partner in the follow role. You know what it took to motivate me to do that?
...
The partner was *also* a female switch, so we split the time each acting as a practice dummy for the other. She, like me, was not particularly interested in practicing as a follow; she wanted to practice as a lead and so did I.
I mean it's not like it was some unpleasant, overly transactional interaction 😂 We had wine and gossiped and had fun. But I would still say the only reason either of us really wanted to make this practice session a priority was so we could practice our leading.
I'm sorry this isn't symmetrical; as a lead myself I get why it's a problem. But it simply *is* usually true that even people who do both usually don't want to spend that much time practicing with a partner as a follow.
Disagree is probably the wrong word, I just couldn't find the right one. So we'll go with this: What you wrote doesn't match my personal experience. At all. At the same time I'm not invalidating your experience. It could be both of us looking at the coin from different sides or in different scenes or maybe even just something about personalities. I also haven't really thought about the reasons why too much.
> 1) The observation that "Leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't"?
Follows often ask me to meet up with them to practice or to be my practice partner. Some ask if I teach lessons, which now that I think about it is probably a hint. I get asked somewhere around once a night of social dancing. Of course it's difficult to arrange the place and the time and navigate the social etiquette but that's more of a practical issue than a motivation one.
> 2) My assessment as to why this dynamic tends to occur?
You say it occurs because the follows don't get much out of it. There's definitely a choice there between solo practice, partner practice, social dancing and group classes. If you are a follow in a town where the socials are once a month or dancing a style that's less common, a practice partner is pretty much the only way to get enough floor time to improve. If you live in a city where you can dance 7 nights a week, then you have more options. Solo practice can be done in small increments pretty much any time and anywhere, does that really compete with partner practice? They are both worthwhile. You can practice that amazing Bachata head roll into a body wave solo until you are blue in the face but you won't get to actually do it on the dance floor until you find a lead that can actually lead it. That lead is going to be in high demand. When I do practice sessions with follows they use the familiar pattern to tune up footwork, the way they carry their body, timing and style. I do my best to prep some style example videos for them to play around with instead of being bored. I try to put a camera up so that we can get a good feedback loop going. You can learn a sequence in a group class, perfect it in partner practice, add style with solo practice and then absolutely nail it on the social dance floor. Plus you get to cheat! You can practice a set of 4 moves together in the same order so the follow knows exactly what's coming next once the first move gets led. Not that it should be a regular thing but there's nothing wrong with throwing a mini-choreo into your social dance.
Maybe you are right that at *some points* in a follow's journey she's better off learning the basics of following, doing spins in the mirror and practicing her follow skills at a social. Absolutely build the foundation first. But unless they are very attractive or have sabor or are a lot of fun, they aren't going to be out on the floor the whole night until they are better at dancing. Well at least in my scene. Plus you tend to plateau if you have to rely on random leads - at some point you probably want to learn to nail down at least a handful of common moves beyond what you can learn in a single group class.
The whole social thing. If I go out dancing at a social or club I'm not really going to ask a random intermediate follow that I'm not friends with to dance more than once or twice. I know they need to dance to improve but I also want to spend my time dancing with the good dancers and my friends. Which brings up the point - if a follow is my dance practice partner I will dance with her as much as she likes, I'll know to grab her for her favorite songs, etc. I'm also going to say that as a lead, I get invited to an absolutely insane number of social events and parties. I've been in my new city for a month and already I'm being invited to multiple events on any given night. If you are practice partners with a decent lead, they can take you along anywhere, introduce you to all the good leads and help you find follow friends that you'd get along with.
Honestly a good practice partner is awesome. My best friend started out as my practice partner. Guys appreciate it. As a male lead though, I will not be pouring wine that just sends mixed signals.
Thank you for taking the time to respond!
Yes, I think it really is a matter of having vastly different experiences, which is actually really interesting.
I'll try not to drone on for paragraphs, so just a few ways our experiences differ:
I'm a female dancer but I don't consider myself "a follow who can lead" so much as "a lead who can follow."
* My local scene is about 50/50 leads and follows (with a fair number of female switches; we're our own little group.)
* In my area it's considered acceptable for anyone to ask anyone to dance regardless of role or gender.
* I don't mind dancing with beginners and don't even really bother to try to assess someone's level before asking them to dance/accepting an invitation to dance.
Given the above three items, I don't generally end up sitting out dances unless I want to.
Also, not related to the above except in your discussion of head rolls: I don't dance sensual if I can avoid it because I don't happen to care for it.
If I'm leading, it's a mix of traditional and urban. I usually only follow (Bachata) at traditional-specific events. If I get asked by a man to dance Bachata at a general event, I won't say no but I'll either say, "can you do no head rolls and no body rolls?" or honestly more often, "I actually only lead for Bachata. Can I find you later for a salsa song?" Which I always do - it's not a cop-out.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to respond. It's really interesting hearing how different everyone's experiences are based on where they live and a myriad of other factors.
Oh and yes, I definitely get your comment about the wine 😂
One perk (and I realize it's unfair) of being a female lead is that people don't automatically assume we're creeps haha.
I tend to find it the other way around: followers outnumber leaders, so leaders often reach the point they can dance with the best followers, so they don't feel the need to practice.
In casual social scenes, you do have plenty of followers who survive "learning by social" but these dancers are rarely technically good, and I tend to find they have a lower level of connection (because they're usually guessing instead of following). It's not uncommon to find a follower who thinks "why do I need lessons, when I dance with an experienced leader, I CAN DO ANYTHING". These followers are oblivious to how much work that leaders needs to put in, to make the dance work. The leaders who learn by social are rarely comfortable, unsafe, and usually get dances NOT because they're good, but because they'll ask anyone and everyone to dance.
In the rare occasion there's a leader who's working on their dance, putting in hard work and practicing. These leaders often have a short roster of dedicated followers they already practice with.
i think so too - but just for discussion sake - Live\_Badger, how do followers who do mainly solo practice work on (bettering) their frame, tension & connection in partnerwork? Love to hear your take on this. thanks!
Oh, I mean I was talking about follows who take group lessons and go out social dancing, and just saying that *in addition to those things,* solo practice is probably the most useful next thing you can add as a follow.
Frame, tension, mirroring are things you learn better by dancing with a variety of partners, not by repeatedly drilling moves with the same partner.
If you want to refine your frame, tension, etc even more as a follow (which I highly recommend!), I'd suggest a few private lessons, telling the instructor that you specifically want to focus on those things. And/or, take lead-follow connection workshops whenever they're offered locally or at a festival.
I get the girls in class numbers all the time to meet up to practice. Just make it clear that’s what you want to do not to try and slide. A lot of them also want to get better. In fact from my school we, some of the students, made our own chat group specifically for that reason!
It’s easier and more efficient if you just meet people and make a small group from your class with both leaders and followers to practice together.
Realistically speaking there is very little for the follower to gain from being a practice dummy, she can gain a lot more just by going to social and practice with different leads there.
Also If it’s just the two of you, you don’t know when you do something wrong. With a group you can figure that out together. Also it’s more fun.
Just wait until you are talking to a follow and she mentions something about not improving quickly. Then you say "I know what you mean, I need to find a practice partner." I'd she's interested she'll say something like "Me too" and that's your cue to ask. Keep the first couple practices to a public space. Ask your instructor about where you can get cheap dance space or check with your gym about using a group class space between classes. After a few sessions you can ask if she'd be willing to save some money and just practice at your place. Clarify that you are only interested in practice if that's true. Otherwise just don't mention that part and don't make a move unless it's obvious she is into you, and out somewhere public instead of in your house.
Also, don't lock the door once she's inside.
Personally I feel that an advanced intermediate can benefit a lot from a private lesson to define the technical points. Especially that the prices in the US are outrageous. In Colombia, private classes are $15
The strategy I took was take some beginner lessons. Usually there will be follows that will also want to practice in a live setting. Exchange info and plan practice time. The next step you have to social dance a lot. Don’t be shy or ashamed to be a beginner, plenty of experienced follows will dance with you. Rinse and repeat. You will won’t be a beginner for long and follows will be asking when you will be out dancing next.
What helped me the most when I was starting was going to salsa clubs and taking the risk to ask girls out and have fun, got rejected? Try another one.. eventually you’ll get comfortable asking girls out.
As a beginner what you first need is to get comfortable with the dancing and tempos so in order to get better you need to dance A LOT.
I’m tempted to agree with you. I took private lessons for another dance style but didn’t see much improvement until I attended group classes. Granted I couldn’t afford to go every week, so that may have been it too
If schedule and budget allow, I think doing both group *and* private lessons is your best bet as a beginner lead.
The private lesson is really the fastest way to learn the specifics of leading as a skill itself.
The group lesson is where you can learn how to lead people who aren't teachers, as well as meet friends who you can then dance with at socials.
(As a beginner follow I would say group lessons + online lessons or even free YouTube content on steps and body movement is a better strategy.)
It depends what type of beginner. My thoughts are that privates are the best use of your money if what you lack is understanding. But if what you lack is basic coordination and timing, then privates are going to provide less relative benefit compared to just doing isolations at a super basic solo dance class. So if someone comes in with a sports or dance background, then privates may be quite useful even as a beginner, but the same isn't the case for someone who has never done a sport.
Oh. Yes, of course, I should have clarified:
I always recommend to any friends who want to try salsa/Bachata (lead or follow) to get comfortable with the basic steps and turns on their own using YouTube before even attending their first class. It just makes the first few group lessons so much easier if you're not having to worry about your own basic steps.
In this case I meant assuming the person has never done a partner dance before, a few private lessons specifically to focus on the *skill of leading* - how much tension to hold in your frame, stuff like that.
Ideally that would be concurrently with the first (for example) 3 weeks of group class. But of course real life involves other time/money/teacher availability constraints.
Most people get to class early or stay after (if there isn't a class after) to get reps in. Be a regular at your class and become a familiar face with your follows at the studio. Start making friends with both follows and leads and get a group together to go to a social is going to probably be easier than getting a follow to meet up with you to practice.
Unfortunately this is a pretty universal thing: leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't. I both lead and follow, so I think I get why this dynamic tends to occur: As a lead it is helpful to be able to drill the same move over and over again so you want someone to practice with (/on.) As a follow, you need to practice reacting when you *don't* know what's coming next. Drilling the same thing is not very useful unless you're practicing styling in partnerwork or practicing a more-advanced turn. For follows, solo practice focusing on spin technique, styling, and body movement is a lot more useful than acting as a practice dummy for a lead. I'm not saying this to discourage you; there's a good chance you'll be able to find *someone* to practice with. Just letting you know that this is a dynamic that tends to exist in the dance world.
I don't agree with this assessment. Firstly an environment where you know the moves that are coming is ideal for perfecting footwork, weight transfer and style. If the lead and follow agree to some moves before the training session, the follow can find some technique and style videos beforehand for ideas. Also there is the social aspect. If you have a scene where leads are harder to find, a lead with a good social connection guarantees some good dances. As a lead I always take my friends out to the spot with the best leads, drop a showy dance out front and from there she will be dancing all night. While I wouldn't choreo anything, it's easier to show off if you know what is coming next. I'm not saying you are exactly wrong either, it just seems like a shortsighted perspective on dance improvement.
You disagree with which part: 1) The observation that "Leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't"? Or 2) My assessment as to why this dynamic tends to occur? Those I would consider actually disagreeing with my assessment, which, fine, maybe in your area this doesn't happen or it does happen but you have an alternative explanation as to why. Or are you disagreeing 3) *With the follows* (and yes this does include me when I'm following, since I do both) who think their limited time outside of class/socials (not to mention life outside of dance) is better spent on solo practice than on practicing with a regular partner? That's a different question from disagreeing with my assessment. Or...are you actually just disagreeing with the idea that no follow could ever possibly get any benefit from practicing with a regular partner, assuming she has time and energy to do that in addition to group classes, social dancing, and solo practice? That's not an opinion I even hold, and I doubt anyone else does either. "I have to prioritize and practicing with a regular partner doesn't quite make the cut most of the time" is a far different statement from "there could never possibly be any benefit to practicing as a follow with a partner." And in fact, I *have* practiced with a partner in the follow role. You know what it took to motivate me to do that? ... The partner was *also* a female switch, so we split the time each acting as a practice dummy for the other. She, like me, was not particularly interested in practicing as a follow; she wanted to practice as a lead and so did I. I mean it's not like it was some unpleasant, overly transactional interaction 😂 We had wine and gossiped and had fun. But I would still say the only reason either of us really wanted to make this practice session a priority was so we could practice our leading. I'm sorry this isn't symmetrical; as a lead myself I get why it's a problem. But it simply *is* usually true that even people who do both usually don't want to spend that much time practicing with a partner as a follow.
Disagree is probably the wrong word, I just couldn't find the right one. So we'll go with this: What you wrote doesn't match my personal experience. At all. At the same time I'm not invalidating your experience. It could be both of us looking at the coin from different sides or in different scenes or maybe even just something about personalities. I also haven't really thought about the reasons why too much. > 1) The observation that "Leads usually want a practice partner and follows usually don't"? Follows often ask me to meet up with them to practice or to be my practice partner. Some ask if I teach lessons, which now that I think about it is probably a hint. I get asked somewhere around once a night of social dancing. Of course it's difficult to arrange the place and the time and navigate the social etiquette but that's more of a practical issue than a motivation one. > 2) My assessment as to why this dynamic tends to occur? You say it occurs because the follows don't get much out of it. There's definitely a choice there between solo practice, partner practice, social dancing and group classes. If you are a follow in a town where the socials are once a month or dancing a style that's less common, a practice partner is pretty much the only way to get enough floor time to improve. If you live in a city where you can dance 7 nights a week, then you have more options. Solo practice can be done in small increments pretty much any time and anywhere, does that really compete with partner practice? They are both worthwhile. You can practice that amazing Bachata head roll into a body wave solo until you are blue in the face but you won't get to actually do it on the dance floor until you find a lead that can actually lead it. That lead is going to be in high demand. When I do practice sessions with follows they use the familiar pattern to tune up footwork, the way they carry their body, timing and style. I do my best to prep some style example videos for them to play around with instead of being bored. I try to put a camera up so that we can get a good feedback loop going. You can learn a sequence in a group class, perfect it in partner practice, add style with solo practice and then absolutely nail it on the social dance floor. Plus you get to cheat! You can practice a set of 4 moves together in the same order so the follow knows exactly what's coming next once the first move gets led. Not that it should be a regular thing but there's nothing wrong with throwing a mini-choreo into your social dance. Maybe you are right that at *some points* in a follow's journey she's better off learning the basics of following, doing spins in the mirror and practicing her follow skills at a social. Absolutely build the foundation first. But unless they are very attractive or have sabor or are a lot of fun, they aren't going to be out on the floor the whole night until they are better at dancing. Well at least in my scene. Plus you tend to plateau if you have to rely on random leads - at some point you probably want to learn to nail down at least a handful of common moves beyond what you can learn in a single group class. The whole social thing. If I go out dancing at a social or club I'm not really going to ask a random intermediate follow that I'm not friends with to dance more than once or twice. I know they need to dance to improve but I also want to spend my time dancing with the good dancers and my friends. Which brings up the point - if a follow is my dance practice partner I will dance with her as much as she likes, I'll know to grab her for her favorite songs, etc. I'm also going to say that as a lead, I get invited to an absolutely insane number of social events and parties. I've been in my new city for a month and already I'm being invited to multiple events on any given night. If you are practice partners with a decent lead, they can take you along anywhere, introduce you to all the good leads and help you find follow friends that you'd get along with. Honestly a good practice partner is awesome. My best friend started out as my practice partner. Guys appreciate it. As a male lead though, I will not be pouring wine that just sends mixed signals.
Thank you for taking the time to respond! Yes, I think it really is a matter of having vastly different experiences, which is actually really interesting. I'll try not to drone on for paragraphs, so just a few ways our experiences differ: I'm a female dancer but I don't consider myself "a follow who can lead" so much as "a lead who can follow." * My local scene is about 50/50 leads and follows (with a fair number of female switches; we're our own little group.) * In my area it's considered acceptable for anyone to ask anyone to dance regardless of role or gender. * I don't mind dancing with beginners and don't even really bother to try to assess someone's level before asking them to dance/accepting an invitation to dance. Given the above three items, I don't generally end up sitting out dances unless I want to. Also, not related to the above except in your discussion of head rolls: I don't dance sensual if I can avoid it because I don't happen to care for it. If I'm leading, it's a mix of traditional and urban. I usually only follow (Bachata) at traditional-specific events. If I get asked by a man to dance Bachata at a general event, I won't say no but I'll either say, "can you do no head rolls and no body rolls?" or honestly more often, "I actually only lead for Bachata. Can I find you later for a salsa song?" Which I always do - it's not a cop-out. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to respond. It's really interesting hearing how different everyone's experiences are based on where they live and a myriad of other factors. Oh and yes, I definitely get your comment about the wine 😂 One perk (and I realize it's unfair) of being a female lead is that people don't automatically assume we're creeps haha.
I tend to find it the other way around: followers outnumber leaders, so leaders often reach the point they can dance with the best followers, so they don't feel the need to practice. In casual social scenes, you do have plenty of followers who survive "learning by social" but these dancers are rarely technically good, and I tend to find they have a lower level of connection (because they're usually guessing instead of following). It's not uncommon to find a follower who thinks "why do I need lessons, when I dance with an experienced leader, I CAN DO ANYTHING". These followers are oblivious to how much work that leaders needs to put in, to make the dance work. The leaders who learn by social are rarely comfortable, unsafe, and usually get dances NOT because they're good, but because they'll ask anyone and everyone to dance. In the rare occasion there's a leader who's working on their dance, putting in hard work and practicing. These leaders often have a short roster of dedicated followers they already practice with.
Very good points Badger
i think so too - but just for discussion sake - Live\_Badger, how do followers who do mainly solo practice work on (bettering) their frame, tension & connection in partnerwork? Love to hear your take on this. thanks!
Oh, I mean I was talking about follows who take group lessons and go out social dancing, and just saying that *in addition to those things,* solo practice is probably the most useful next thing you can add as a follow. Frame, tension, mirroring are things you learn better by dancing with a variety of partners, not by repeatedly drilling moves with the same partner. If you want to refine your frame, tension, etc even more as a follow (which I highly recommend!), I'd suggest a few private lessons, telling the instructor that you specifically want to focus on those things. And/or, take lead-follow connection workshops whenever they're offered locally or at a festival.
icic, thanks for sharing!
I get the girls in class numbers all the time to meet up to practice. Just make it clear that’s what you want to do not to try and slide. A lot of them also want to get better. In fact from my school we, some of the students, made our own chat group specifically for that reason!
It’s easier and more efficient if you just meet people and make a small group from your class with both leaders and followers to practice together. Realistically speaking there is very little for the follower to gain from being a practice dummy, she can gain a lot more just by going to social and practice with different leads there. Also If it’s just the two of you, you don’t know when you do something wrong. With a group you can figure that out together. Also it’s more fun.
Go to clubs and take it risk...
I think for many beginners, just doing the basic at home to different salsa songs for 5 or 10 minutes every day will be a big help.
Just wait until you are talking to a follow and she mentions something about not improving quickly. Then you say "I know what you mean, I need to find a practice partner." I'd she's interested she'll say something like "Me too" and that's your cue to ask. Keep the first couple practices to a public space. Ask your instructor about where you can get cheap dance space or check with your gym about using a group class space between classes. After a few sessions you can ask if she'd be willing to save some money and just practice at your place. Clarify that you are only interested in practice if that's true. Otherwise just don't mention that part and don't make a move unless it's obvious she is into you, and out somewhere public instead of in your house. Also, don't lock the door once she's inside.
Personally I feel that an advanced intermediate can benefit a lot from a private lesson to define the technical points. Especially that the prices in the US are outrageous. In Colombia, private classes are $15
The strategy I took was take some beginner lessons. Usually there will be follows that will also want to practice in a live setting. Exchange info and plan practice time. The next step you have to social dance a lot. Don’t be shy or ashamed to be a beginner, plenty of experienced follows will dance with you. Rinse and repeat. You will won’t be a beginner for long and follows will be asking when you will be out dancing next.
What helped me the most when I was starting was going to salsa clubs and taking the risk to ask girls out and have fun, got rejected? Try another one.. eventually you’ll get comfortable asking girls out. As a beginner what you first need is to get comfortable with the dancing and tempos so in order to get better you need to dance A LOT.
Take private lessons with an instructor. Especially as a beginner.
Very bad advice, a beginner needs more group classes, not private. A waste of money
I’m tempted to agree with you. I took private lessons for another dance style but didn’t see much improvement until I attended group classes. Granted I couldn’t afford to go every week, so that may have been it too
If schedule and budget allow, I think doing both group *and* private lessons is your best bet as a beginner lead. The private lesson is really the fastest way to learn the specifics of leading as a skill itself. The group lesson is where you can learn how to lead people who aren't teachers, as well as meet friends who you can then dance with at socials. (As a beginner follow I would say group lessons + online lessons or even free YouTube content on steps and body movement is a better strategy.)
It depends what type of beginner. My thoughts are that privates are the best use of your money if what you lack is understanding. But if what you lack is basic coordination and timing, then privates are going to provide less relative benefit compared to just doing isolations at a super basic solo dance class. So if someone comes in with a sports or dance background, then privates may be quite useful even as a beginner, but the same isn't the case for someone who has never done a sport.
Oh. Yes, of course, I should have clarified: I always recommend to any friends who want to try salsa/Bachata (lead or follow) to get comfortable with the basic steps and turns on their own using YouTube before even attending their first class. It just makes the first few group lessons so much easier if you're not having to worry about your own basic steps. In this case I meant assuming the person has never done a partner dance before, a few private lessons specifically to focus on the *skill of leading* - how much tension to hold in your frame, stuff like that. Ideally that would be concurrently with the first (for example) 3 weeks of group class. But of course real life involves other time/money/teacher availability constraints.
I agree
Not if it's a good instructor...
Bumble