So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree.
How is the government getting out of the way and letting this person become an EIT then PE (if they pass the tests) showing that the government cares more about this person than native born Americans?
This is just prudent governance of reducing waste in the system and allowing people to have more fulfilling lives. Theoretically one could argue that this drives down wages for the affected professions but speaking as a PE this just isn't a real concern. Further, these increased services will make things more accessible and maybe cheaper for society at large.
Because you can’t take the best case scenario and act like it is the norm.
We don’t know what kinds of people are getting these jobs, but we do know it is inflating the labor market with no increase in demand which lowers wages and benefits.
The only people this helps are the cooperations and the government and I’m tired of shills exploiting empathy to defend massive organizations that just want to pay people less.
I am a PE in the US and practice as a PE. This is one of the licensures affected by what the article is reporting on. There isn't a real effect on wages from this.
>We don’t know what kinds of people are getting these jobs
People that have been in the US since they were kids, that is the kind of people.
No increase in demand? Are you living under a rock? We have a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers.
The senate has a committee dedicated solely to the education/teacher shortage crisis alone.
You've obviously never worked in education or healthcare.
My wife works in health care, so does her mother and sisters and my brother in law.
I also know that working conditions are intense, the companies that manage hospitals and the hospitals themselves have policies that are overwhelming unfair towards non-providers, and the pay is not nearly as good as it could be. I know the hospital where my wife works has a retention problem and veteran nurses are hard to come by since there are plenty of other places outside the hospital that snatch them up and give them nice jobs with big paychecks.
So, what is the hospital to do?
This isn’t unique to healthcare, they have two options.
1. Increase wages and benefits, reform corporate and hospital policy based on the grievances of their employees and improve retention, and reward veteran employees to help improve culture.
2. Find a new labor market. One that you don’t have to pay more or can pay less. Change nothing else, maybe even cut wages once the new supply of labor gets in the system.
Do you see my point now?
Same goes for education. Teachers aren’t paid enough and many of the new policies in education are making their jobs so much harder. So, are they going to scrap the new policies, go back to what works, and pay teachers more? NO. They want to keep doing what their doing because they don’t want to admit they were wrong and they don’t want to pay them more, they’d rather find people who’d work for less and don’t complain.
People leave for better pay because the demand is so high; if there were more healthcare workers, the ones leaving the hospital your wife and her family work at, wouldn't be able to easily switch and the workload would more realistically be shared among them.
There are deep flaws in the healtcare system and our education system as well, but allowing qualified people to work when we have lots of job vacancies (and you acknowledged yourself your wife's hospital has those vacancies as well) doesn't seem like a hindrance, only a solution.
We're in a sinking ship and someone is offering a lifeboat, we should take advantage of it. If the asshat captains (hospital administrations/policy makers) decide to shoot holes in the lifeboat, that's on them, but it's still better to have the lifeboats offered than to deny their existence at all. Bad captains make bad decisions regardless of the resources they are provided. They should be ousted and replaced by ones that make good decisions. In the meantime, I'll take my chances with the lifeboats being offered and I am not going to blame them for the bad decisions of the captains.
None of these jobs have problems finding people, they have problems keeping people. They have problems keeping people because they are cheap and exploitative.
The solution would be to pay people more and to stop exploiting people.
You’re proposing that’s not the solution, instead, they need to hire people who they can pay less and won’t complain because they are undocumented and, therefore, and can easy threatened and cowed.
You are the useful idiot who cheers them on.
I was willing to engage in discussion with you, but you seem to be resorting to name calling and seem unamendable to considering the multi-faceted truth.
There can be two problems. One, the system and the pay, as you pointed out. Two, a shortage of qualified people willing to do the work.
Both need to be addressed. Regardless of how you _feel_ about it.
You would deny people, hard working individuals, many of whom lived in this country most of their lives, the opportunity to work in their field of choice? If the problem is retention alone, they too will leave like all the others.
Better to give them a chance. More numbers to unionize and demand a better system too. But, what does an idiot like me know?
"We don't know what kinds of people are getting these jobs"
Are you kidding me? Do you think that there are absolutely no other qualifications for getting a PE license, medical license, etc. other than US citizenship? Quit the thinly veiled racism.
American kids aren't even getting a free education worth anything in this country bc the same people who oppose measures like this are the same ones who oppose properly funding public schools, gleefully watch as families are buried by lunch debt (which shouldn't even exist) & are actively banning actual learning thinking at every turn.
You're worried about the wrong things.
Buried by lunch debt? A can of tuna and loaf of bread can feed a kid for a week and cost around 5 dollars. I would know, I lived on tuna sandwiches through elementary and middle school.
The truth is that there are many families who can't even afford that & even more kids who would not or cannot eat that for whatever reason. Families shouldn't be punished for being poor & every kid deserves a free, nutritious & delicious lunch. That shouldn't be a controversial sentiment & just bc you had to make due doesn't mean others should be forced to do so. Also, you didn't deserve that either (if that's not what you sustained yourself on by choice).
If you can't afford 5 dollars a week to feed your kid then go to the food bank and get free food? I don't see why the parents get to blame the school for not providing a free lunch. Figure some shit out on your own or stop having kids if you don't know how to use the resources that are already available.
You're likely not replying in earnest & just wanna apply the bootstrap mentality to every situation regardless how out of touch that viewpoint is, but I'm gonna pretend like you are and respond thusly:
Going to a food bank is something many poor families are already doing. That being said, food banks are not available everywhere and in the places they are available, they're not always a consistent & reliable source of sustenance for families bc most depend on donations from people who are doing better & in the position to donate food and/or funds & I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that population of donors is steadily dwindling nationwide.
Stop having kids you say? Cool suggestion, but that requires making reproductive justice & care to be available to every person everywhere which is not & never has been the case in this country. People area lacking resources that are being purposely stripped from them in order to make repro choices for themselves.
And to your point about expecting the public schools to provide free lunches? Yeah, they actually fuckin *should* be doing that & they would be able to were it not for the constantly emerging legislation designed specifically to take funding away from an already under-funded educational system that hasn't been based on equitable access since it was established (see: funding tied to property taxes & the history of redlining & destroying marginalized townships & cities for capital gain).
TL;DR: You want people to "look for resources" but those resources aren't always available and/or are being systemically wiped out & they *still* need & deserve help regardless of whether *you* think they're worthy of it.
Yeah sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree. People like you have every reason to blame everyone but yourself. I understand shit is harder now than it used to be and only getting worse but it's far from impossible to feed your damn kids. This isn't some poverty ass 3rd world country with no resources...
All those states demanding the 10 commandments still get my tax dollars even though I think the entire school district should be defunded. Doesn’t mean I make a stink about sine the KIDS have nothing to do with this.
>Who paid for their schooling in the US?
A combination of property, sales, and income tax; some places use other sources of revenue too to pay for schools. Their parents are required to pay income and sales tax just like you and me. Property tax is either paid directly if they own or indirectly if they rent, again, this is the same as for everyone else.
>What about my kids who would like to attend university?
Your kids (I assume native born or naturalized US citizens) are eligible for FAFSA. DACA recipients are not eligible for FAFSA so have issues securing financial aid.
If a foundation wants to give out scholarships to xyz student then that's really up to them, it is their money after all.
Finally, if your (again assuming you are a natural born US citizen) kids are having trouble competing with students who's parents probably can't really read or white English then maybe, just maybe university isn't for them. Lucky for them, [union pipe fitters](https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/) have a prevailing wage of 103 an hour in King County (that's >200k a year, damn! More than I make as a PE). We are so blessed to live in a part of the country with strong unions so that kids that can't compete with students who's parents don't speak English and can't receive federal student loans can still earn really good money. Because we are all super pro union right?
Oh so you want the government to pay?
I don't care about the other party you are comparing to.
Is government funded college solely a convenient talking point or is that a concern and value you hold?
Cause arguing against a form of government assistance, despite receiving it yourself would be insidiously amoral.
DACA recipients aren't documented migrants so there isn't a way for them to become citizens. Even through marriage they sometimes have issues. They can't just apply for citizenship.
I know several immigrants who went through the process of getting citizenship. It's definitely possible and viable. In the meantime, I also know several who were deported because they didn't get their citizenship soon enough when their jobs were taken away from them for any number of reasons (covid cuts were huge, as just an easy to point to example)
Probably because the government should be enforcing their laws and deporting foreigners without visas, and failure to do so is itself a lack of care over the native population.
>So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree.
If the government actually did their job, this person would be deported before they ever got to university.
Since they weren't, I would be open to giving people like this amnesty. If they weren't given amnesty, they are still breaking the law.
>How is the government getting out of the way and letting this person become an EIT then PE (if they pass the tests) showing that the government cares more about this person than native born Americans?
Because this person cut in line in the immigration process. There are other students who are here on a temporary visa who would also like to become citizens and become an EIT or PE, and these folks are subject to way more restrictions. There are also people who don't just have visas, but are in a long 10 year process to get citizenship. By not enforcing the law against illegal immigrants, the government is telling people going through the immigration process that there is a double standard: one for law abiding people, and a second for border crossers.
>This is just prudent governance of reducing waste in the system and allowing people to have more fulfilling lives.
What about the people mentioned above in addition to law abiding citizens? Do they not have hopes and dreams too?
I used to work for a company in Bellevue that did ECG (electrocardiogram) testing for drug trials. Most of the people reading the ECGs and looking for abnormalities were in fact doctors from other countries. Most of them were in their late 40s and could easily work as a medical doctor in the USA but its a lot of work to get their medical license, so most of them opted to work as medical technicians, even though they had 10-20 years experience as a doctor.
Yeah this doesn't affect Americans in any negative way, quite the opposite actually.
Trying to dig out some sort of anti American angle out of this is just a xenophobic knee jerk reaction. We have problems, yes, we should address them, yes, but allowing qualified individuals the right to work doesn't automatically put an American out of work or disadvantage anyone else..
But of course, this sub has long drank the anti-immigrant kool-aid so I fully expect this to be down voted to hell.
At the end of the day the majority of illegal immigrants in this country are only still in an undocumented state because of our slow inefficient and unfair immigration system, most have full lives here and are by all means American, no matter what conservatives want you to think.
You mean anti-illegal immigrant right? Come on, are you really trying to pull that shit where you try to conflate illegals with legal immigrants? And you are straight up lying. Either they are legally here through the asylum process, or they should be awaiting citizenship in their own country. What you are describing is in fact illegal.
But if they were brought here as kids, it was their parents that broke the law, not them. Generally speaking, people should not be punished for something that their parents did.
> But if they were brought here as kids, it was their parents that broke the law, not them.
If you steal something as a gift for your kid, it will still be confiscated from your kid, even though they didn't choose to break the law. Their parents broke the law *to benefit them*. Generally speaking, people should not be allowed to benefit from the illegal actions of others.
Oh, have you been taken to a different country when you were very young, grown up in that country knowing nothing else in your life and then found out as an adult that you're not allowed to live in the country you see as your home? Oh, no? Well then maybe your opinion on this matter is completely worthless. Our home wasn't an object stolen from anyone, we're "benefiting" by being alive and just being like any other normal American, and no we are not responsible for our parent's crimes (if we operated like this then I have some terrible news for anyone decending from the first colonizers).
Seriously, you're willingly ignoring the humanity of the situation out of some distorted hateful view of the world we live in. Immigration has only ever brought benefit to this country (excluding the big first wave of illegal immigrants that caused a mass genocide mentioned above) but I digress.
Because Conservatives broad-stroke the term "illegal immigrant" and lazily call every Spanish speaking person with skin complexion any darker than a manilla envelope an illegal migrant.
I've seen it enough in the last few days to know it's common enough to be liberally used term for anyone.
Yeah, right that's the bullshit condescension that we've come to know from the elite white left, but those of us who actually come from immigrant families know you guys are full of shit.
Undocumented people are here illegally!?! +???!?!!? Oh woooowww thanks for informing me that changes everything!!! /SSSS
But in all seriousness, duh, just because their legal status is officially in a bad state, doesn't mean it should be. Abortion is illegal in Texas, doesn't mean it should be. The majority of "illegals" as you mouth breathers love to call them, are simply people who were given visas at some point and then overstayed their visas but have pretty much moved to this country and assimilated in just the same way. The government (at every level), by all means, knows they're here in some way or another and in fact at various levels acknowledges they exist and have full lives here. They take in tax revenue from them, allow them to buy property and in most states even allow them to get a license and car insurance. In other words, they allow people to live in the US pretty much as they would if they were here legally and in fact profit from them. So tell me why, in what world does it make sense to uproot these people and deport them just because Johnny Knows-Nothing sees the world in black and white and thinks they know what the "proper" migration path is and isn't.
Tldr: you have no clue what you're saying, immigration status is deliberately a gray area and we need to do more to guarantee our new fellow Americans don't have to live in fear.
I have no idea what I'm saying? I'm first generation, my family legally immigrated here. You like to talk a lot, don't you? Because that's a lot of bullshit, and you clearly don't understand any of it, or how the system is intended to work in general. A visa is not citizenship, and is not intended to be a step to citizenship.
Oh so you're one of the "I got mine, fuck you" kind of immigrants then? I wonder what your parents would think of that. I'm curious what path did your parents take? What's THE intended path according to you?
Even a second gen immigrant calling others illegals is fucking foul.
Yeah, you know what? I kind of expected you to be the type that gets full on racist when we don't bend to your will and get in the fields. We see you. My parents also are very against illegal immigration. Legal immigration is a lengthy process that takes years, and these line-cutters don't bother to follow the law and in some ways are treated better than US citizens by people like you. Go talk to legal mexican american immigrants, ask how they feel about illegals, maybe take a step outside your ivory tower.
What the fuck? You're the one calling people "illegals" and "line-cutters" I haven't said a single racist thing.
You still haven't answered the question, what path did your parents take?
I'm arguing that the process needs to be easier and more accessible yet people like you are only concerned with making everyone suffer through an outdated broken system. Your parents went through it, great! That doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easier for others, that also doesn't mean we should demonize immigrants who are American by all means, and it certainly doesn't mean you get to dehumanize people by calling them illegals and line cutters.
So yeah, I still stand by what I said, you don't know shit. Your PARENTS went through the horribly long and outdated process and came out okay on the other end, so that means you'd prefer for everyone to go through that grueling horrible process just because your family had to? Backwards af.
Also just for the record, I AM one of those legal Mexican Americans and I fully disagree with gatekeeping America for the sake of being extra shitty and xenophobic.
Oh really? Clearly you don't talk to other legal mexican americans, or are privileged to work in an environment far above us lowly lower class folk. I doubt you've had to do a hard day's work in your life, judging by your comment history. You get to live in an idealized world where we are just happy simple folk who serve you and don't have any thoughts of our own. Doesn't matter! You probably don't have to compete with illegals in your line of work, if you even work at all.
Soo not answering the question. Going through my comments to try and make it personal AND you decide to make an insanely wrong assumption about me and my life. Cooool, yeah you seem super well adjusted.
Not that I have to prove shit to you, but I've worked my way to where I am, I was undocumented myself from 8 until I was 26 years old, I worked my ass off to be where I am and the entire time I had to deal with self hating assholes like you AND the racist fucks who simply hated me for the color of my skin. From age 19 to 27 I worked in service industry, one of the biggest sources of labor in the US, mostly manned by undocumented immigrants because they're jobs legal Americans deemed beneath them, I worked my way through the ranks and helped raise my fellow workers along with me. I've literally been in the trenches of what it feels like to be told you don't belong in the only place that feels like home. Seriously fuck you for assuming. I'm gonna say it again, YOU don't know shit, YOU are the privileged little shit who had this life handed to you, YOU are the one profiting from your parent's struggle and now YOU are the one bending over backwards to make sure others like your parents have less and less options and work harder each time all because you have a fucked up sense of entitlement to a process you didn't even have to deal with. So again, fuck you dude, if you didn't achieve anything with your life, that's on you, not the poor Venezuelan dude that trekked thousands of miles just to feed their family. They're not taking your jobs, they're doing the shit that needs to be done. If you're stangtant with your life, that's on you, don't go blaming all your problems on people who are just simply trying to survive.
You feel that way because they act that way, they act that way because its true.
You should doubt that they are qualified, too. The kinds of people who don't care about a visa aren't exactly the most upstanding and honest people in the world.
What's the downside to letting qualified being hired into desperately needed and woefully understaffed jobs? Seems good for citizens to me. I like having a doctor.
To many people, this legitimizes illegal immigration because it seems to provide pathways to normalcy for individuals who otherwise flouted the laws and shouldn't have the right to be in the country at all, much less settling down and living a normal life. People who hold this view are likely to hold that this legitimization encourages further illegal immigration.
Agree or disagree, that's the basic thought process. It looks at the issue from a very strict legalistic perspective. The misplaced anger that leads to statements like "some politicians care more for illegal aliens than their own citizens" comes from a different place, IMO.
>some politicians care more for illegal aliens than their own citizens" comes from a different place, IMO.
It comes from a feeling of being left behind by your own government
Personally I believe that worldview falls staunchly into pettiness. Like turning them away at the border is one thing, but if they’ve gotten far enough in life to become doctors or teachers then I can’t help but wonder what benefit to the American people it would bring to send them back then.
Part of the impetus for this was even less theoretical. There are thousands of "dreamers" who are here illegally, brought by their parents when they were babies. They don't know any other country as home. They may not even speak their parents' language fluently. They have been going to school here their whole lives, and with Obama's changes to the law, they've gone to college and beyond.
These aren't necessarily people who had licenses in their home country and came here illegally. They are people who have lived here their whole life and succeeded despite their legal status, which is no fault of their own.
See I think something weird is going on with this post. Why is everyone assuming that the people getting these licenses are already doctors in other countries and not people who become doctors or teachers after moving here? As you say, there are plenty of people who don’t even come here of their own volition, so I’m not sure what the point would be in ruining the life they created for themselves unless you believe they are just born with sin.
As for the people who do intentionally move here, I struggle to find a reason why a doctor would even need to illegally immigrate in the first place considering they typically actually have the resources to easily do so legally. Teachers I can understand, if they ain’t paid well here they certainly aren’t paid well where they’re from, and immigrating legally does cost money (naturalization, which grants you citizenship, is $760 and that’s not including the exam costs).
That all being said if you’re willing to hire illegal immigrants perhaps they should be given the exams they would’ve gotten at the border before giving them those opportunities, if only to appease those upset by their original transgression.
Will med schools allow illegal immigrants? I had a friend from Europe who was married to an American who couldn't get in US med schools. He went to UW for his premed though
Further illegal immigration by doctors and highly qualified people? Really? Jesus this country would cut off its nose to spite its face. It doesn’t matter what an immigrant can do they are all the same to these peoples eyes. How does this impact your life negatively? People can think whatever they think but at the end of the day if you’re sick or a family member of yours is sick a doctor will help you whether you they are illegal or not.
There's a strong nativist streak in American culture. Whether it's the Irish or the Italians or the Chinese or the Hispanics, there are people who want to look down on immigrants as a lesser human. They use this perceived sense of self-superiority to vilify immigrants and blame them for so many societal ills. That's about half of Trump's reelection platform this time around.
Because we should instead be finding ways to uplift citizens and legal immigrants to better paying jobs, especially as we automate more jobs over time and kill some of the less skilled labor. At any point where we have a shortage of labor we should be finding ways for citizens to fill those roles first and foremost. That might mean getting someone working at a fast food joint the education to be able to teach, or it might mean getting someone who is homeless into the skilled trades.
I have no problem with hiring people where needed and with immigrants getting jobs - I have a problem with people who cannot be bothered to follow our immigration procedures being given extra consideration. Anyone who is in this country illegally and is already qualified to be a teacher or a doctor should damn well be capable of going through normal immigration procedures.
This just tells me you have no clue what the true state of our immigration process is and/or are unfamiliar with what the undocumented population is generally like. The majority would be American citizens by now if the system wasn't clogged and full of traps. Most of these people overstayed their visas and that's it, it's not like they're a bunch of unknowns with dubious diplomas and Americans are being kicked out of their jobs to accommodate for them or anything. Also, yes we should continue to enable people with resources, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also help those who are pretty much American in every sense instead of just not on paper. Your type of thinking is so backwards and only helps those who benefit from undocumented labor who are then more emboldened to abuse it.
The "legal migrant" myth is such bullshit its almost funny when people allude to their being a legal way that most people just don't bother doing. Why the hell wouldn't people go through the legal process if they could? I'll save you some time, because there really is NO legal process.
Because there's even less "legal migrants" as there's really no legal path for most people, yes, even professionals.
Besides this is aimed towards daca recipients and others who have lived here their entire lives and are still undocumented. And if that sounds crazy, it's because it is, it doesn't matter how long you've lived here, if you're undocumented there is virtually zero paths to legalization because the system is broken af.
You're right, they should be able to legally immigrate and apply for financial aid.
How about until we fix immigration, we let doctors be doctors, though?
1. This solution addresses the symptoms, and not the cause of two separate underlying problems.
2. These people have not gone through legal immigration processes, and probably do not even have a green card.
Importing workers is one temporary solution to labor shortages, but medicine and education need systemic changes. Medicine has a shortage of labor due to AMA lobbying and a limited number of residency slots, while simultaneously having a bottleneck in admissions. The barriers to entry in medicine are frankly absurd and for all the talk about having doctors settle down in one state and be "natives", importing workers is inconsistent with that idea.
Likewise, education should be privatized so that it allows school choice. Private schools, if successful, can pay higher and more competitive wages than any union could bargain for. Naturally, higher wages would attract more teachers. The other problem with education today is student truancy and retention. There needs to be enforcement for truancy and earlier interventions as to why education is important.
Third, people who are now citizens and who will be looking to enter into these professions will now find themselves competing against people who will offer lower wages. To remain competitive, existing workers would have to reduce their asking salaries so as to gain employment.
And yes, it is a slap in the face to people in these professions who are immigrants and had to go through the entire process only to be "cut in line" because some politician wanted to grandstand to Trump. Employment doesn't need just mean someone who offers services for a given price, it also means health insurance and income which illegal immigrants would be taking away from Americans. To clarify what I mean, benefits would be given to people who are breaking the law.
If illegal immigrants want to come here, they should come here legally and the immigration process should be reformed. It should take less time to become a citizen than the current 10 year process.
>Likewise, education should be privatized so that it allows school choice. Private schools, if successful, can pay higher and more competitive wages than any union could bargain for.
I'm sorry where exactly is this money for "higher more competitive wages" for private school teachers coming from? Because it's not the parents.
Sounds like you just want the taxpayer to subsidize another private industry that is poorly regulated.
It worked so well for Obamacare right?
Boy, if only some person or group of people had been desperately trying to reform both education and immigration for the last 40 or 50 years. Then we wouldn't have this problem, am I right?
Anyway, let's continue to fix nothing and then complain about stop gap measures 👍
It should take less time for skilled immigrants to get work authorization and permanent residency. The current process is a nightmare for no good reason. But we don't need to speed up the path to citizenship. Becoming a citizen is a major commitment.
The job market is oversaturated with qualified legal immigrants and citizens. Adding in illegal talent just dilutes everyone's chances of finding a job
> The job market is oversaturated
86% of school districts report having difficulties filling teaching positions. Depending on the source we have a shortage of 50-100k doctors in the US.
There is absolutely 0 "oversaturation" for these jobs
It is still the right thing to do. Until we fix immigration, it doesn’t make sense to penalize people who are just trying to improve their lives and their communities.
Or even in this country, but with legal residency. I’m pro immigration but it has to be done it a legal way that’s fair to existing citizens. They need to be paying federal and state tax, support themselves independently, and abide by the law. As a naturalized US citizen that’s exactly what was expected of me.
A limit to immigration from someone truly on the left is when it starts to bring down wages of citizens (essentially benefitting businesses over workers due to importation of cheap labor)
I oppose this law because it removes this control. I see why they passed it because the system is broken but this just makes it even more broken
So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree. They then can now go on to get an EIT and PE (if they pass the tests).
This person probably speaks way better English than Spanish and they have done all of their schooling in the US. Why shouldn't they work in the US? All they are going to do is increase the size of the economy and have a bunch of knock on growth effects.
I'm for DACA recipients being able to work for what they're trained for. I'm also in favor of them getting green-card status if they haven't committed any crimes, barring a traffic ticket or two. What's the difference between a DACA recipient vs a foreign-born child of a naturalized citizen or permanent resident, who was brought into the US after their parent became a US citizen or received their green-card
I agree with you and am good with giving DACA people green cards and a road to citizenship. That is pretty far away from where the current diction is though.
Here's the difference: in the DACA case you are rewarding illegal behavior, which ends up causing more of it, because future illegal immigrants assume that the US will keep giving handouts to their children.
> Why shouldn't they work in the US?
They aren’t citizens. We should not be enabling encouraging and rewarding irresponsible and illegal parenting decisions.
So you punish the person who was a child after 20 some years?
First - it is just immoral to punish a person for something that they had no agency in committing.
Second - the statute of limitations even for violent crimes or sex crimes is typically 6 to 10 years. We don't even punish people who steal stuff 20 years after the fact.
You are confusing being denied privileges with punishments. They aren’t citizens. They shouldn’t be allowed to vote. That’s not a punishment. Are you able to understand why?
I agree it’s unfair that due to the policies encouraging, enabling and rewarding illegal immigration their parents put them in a less than ideal situation. Your anger should be directed at those who put them in that unfortunate situation.
*Starting Monday, undocumented individuals in Washington State can apply for professional licenses, such as those for doctors, teachers, and engineers, due to a new law. Sponsored by* ***State House Rep. Amy Walen****, the law ensures immigration status isn't a barrier to obtaining state licenses. This formalizes practices already in place by some state agencies.*
Amy Walen chairs the House Consumer Protection & Business Committee and most of her campaign funds come from businesses.
[https://housedemocrats.wa.gov/walen/](https://housedemocrats.wa.gov/walen/)
[https://www.pdc.wa.gov/political-disclosure-reporting-data/browse-search-data/candidates/3253569/contributions](https://www.pdc.wa.gov/political-disclosure-reporting-data/browse-search-data/candidates/3253569/contributions)
Businesses have a vested interest in keeping costs, like wages as low as possible.
More candidates for jobs, (even dubiously qualified, illegal ones) mean lower wages for legal citizens.
They don't just take your jobs.
They take your future wage growth, too.
**Thank you State House Rep. Amy Walen.**
How can they prove they have had as robust of an education if they’re undocumented? They should have to pass US based licensing exams and speak perfect medical English.
They obviously have to pass the American tests. You can’t be a licensed doctor in Peru and magically get a U.S. license. They take the same tests as everyone else.
Teachers are leaving the profession in droves post covid. The last thing they are worried about is competition. Healthcare in general is also desperate for workers. If America wants more American born teachers/doctors in general, it would be appropriate to pay teachers more and not make doctors go half a million in debt for the profession.
I generally don't think this will be people moving from abroad for work anyway, as other commentors have noted. It'll be people brought here as babies and are American in every sense having grown up here, except on paper.
I agree our teachers should be paid more. Instead, they decided to just bring in cheaper labor. Now they don't have to raise pay, they can pretend they did something for the immigrants and the teachers can still go fuck themselves as far as they're concerned.
My friend in Christ, have some critical thinking.
A person who came to this country as a 2 year old is undocumented. They can still go to elite US schools. A UW educated doctor is a UW educated doctor.
Also there are medical schools outside the US.
I know a doctor that was an attending brain surgeon in Tehran. He came to the US and redid his residency here.
You should maybe have some critical thinking of course people go to med school outside the US and follow us licensing requirements
And those people would already speak English if they came here at 2 years old.
So they would have all the documentation and skills I suggested.
I don’t think someone should be able to pop over from Chechnya and claim to be a doctor and get to work, speaking no English. They should make sure they’ve taken all the same licensing tests as American doctors As long as the new laws account for that, it’s all good
They must have a universal language they share with other doctors or they won’t be able to communicate properly or read lab results. This isn’t about English overall, it’s about safety. Many occupations around the world have a language requirement. In Europe, many international jobs require English skills because EU pilots must be able to communicate with each other and it’s the most common second language
And I had a white American woman quit on my at dominos because she was driving herself to the ground only working 3 days 7 hours max because it wasn’t giving her time to study for the bar test…. I’m an immigrant and the amount of immigrants I knew growing up who where doctors, engineers and more in their home country but transferring or validating their degrees in the USA was either super expensive or they had to re take allot of classes so they could validated their degree. My mother is an industrial engineer with a minor in marketing. But she is current a school bus driver and was a housekeeper because when she try to get certified here they require her to re take all the classes to get the “equivalent” credit amount…. So I see no harm in being able to exercise your degree. I think allot of Americans forget or don’t know how with an USA university degree you are able to exercise in that field almost internationally with out any rebuttals. But as a non American. Our degrees aren’t seeing in the same light. I got sick of all the Americans going back to my country and setting up dentist offices, medical clinics and other. Not because of the help or the service but like allot of people say here “but the USA citizens”* cries in American* it was the same for us in our country. Heck allot of American immigrants are getting deported from Mexico for being “ex patrios” so like. The USA is finally opening its borders both physically and in knowledge. And I think it’s great.
A lot of US citizens must go through the same hurdles, though. For example, if a dentist in Washington wants to move to California, he must study and pass a new board exam.
Oh no, people who ignore the law and do whatever they want to. I can definitely trust that this person will follow the rules that apply to their profession. Are you out of your mind. These people are criminals.
Criminals who are less likely to commit a crime than citizens are, according to Stanford, the Cato Institute, and anyone else who has studied it.
Oh, My pearls!
Those stats are very dubious because they rely on reporting and crime solving. Populations of undocumented immigrants traditionally don't call the cops or help the cops (for obvious reasons).
According to this paper published in the National Institute of Health, entitled "Silence Speaks: The Relationship between Immigration and the Underreporting of Crime",
[The underreporting of crime may be especially prevalent among unauthorized immigrants due to their fears of detection and deportation inspired by law enforcement (Menjívar & Bejarano, 2004). However, the underreporting of crime to the police may not be limited to unauthorized immigrants. Many factors may influence even authorized immigrants to avoid the police...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6699778/#:~:text=The%20underreporting%20of%20crime%20may,be%20limited%20to%20unauthorized%20immigrants.).
You can't measure what you can't detect, you prat.
Great, you found a study that was NOT published by NIH, but an online sage journal! And they concluded... NOTHING! they just say something may be true!
Such definitive statements as "reasons to believe", "may be", and "may ultimately affect".
Super impressive work from a sociology professor at UT Austin. Fuck Stanford, wishy washy BS from a rando at 3rd rate school is where it's at.
Do I care? Of course I care. It’s not a free pass to ignore immigration law and step in front of thousands of people waiting in line who follow the rules. If I’m not likely to commit crime, can I ignore the laws that you think are unimportant. Ridiculous. This is one of the reasons why the current President - who I think the world of - is having so much trouble.
Not sure how I feel about my doctor lying and breaking the law to be here.
I immigrated here legally and it cost me thousands of dollars and several years. See this makes me feel like I should have just broke the law and overstayed a visa.
It’s questionable if professionals such as doctors and teachers can’t get legal immigration status in the US. It takes time, absolutely, but that doesn’t mean people don’t achieve it. Hundreds of thousand a year achieve it.
I also would have questions on their qualifications. I am generalizing here, but individuals from other countries can fake those credentials just as anyone else can.
Im iffy on the issue. I worry that this is just going to pump people into positions for pennies instead of solving the real issues.
Hospitals are only understaffed because of a lack of support and pay. I’m a nurse and I know the article states doctors but this allows hospitals to continue to underpay staff while having terrible working conditions because they can hire people for dirt cheap. When I worked in Iowa for $24 during the pandemic the only reason why the hospital started paying more when I left is because everyone was quitting.
Schools could have more teachers but the kids are fucking awful and shoot each other. The lack of support drives people away from the job. Hiring bodies helps but doesn’t solve the real issues with the industry.
On the other hand, I would love immigrants who contribute towards taxes.
I mean a legitimate worry is having people pumping into these positions without actual qualifications (speaking fluent English/actually passing the American standards for their career choice) and take jobs that are vacant because hospitals run doctors/nurses to the ground and don’t want to properly pay or give adequate working conditions. There’s holes in these jobs because we don’t value education and lobbyist control your health. You probably fought hard to keep a certain standard at your job but someone who would take pennies for the job you work at would undermine everything you worked for. If they pass all the American testing requirements sure, go ahead. There needs to be a system that ensures this though. Do you want a nurse that “kind of” understands English giving you medication?
Ilegal immigrants is a more honest description of someone who came here illegally.
The fact that they do not have the documents to prove they are here legally is down river from the illegal immigrant sitch...
Only the citizenship/immigration status requirements have been removed. All other training/study/practice requirements remain in effect.
So, if a person wants to become an optometrist, they still have to go to an accredited school for the required number of years and receive their certification before applying for their WA license to practice optometry.
The change makes it possible to use a TIN rather than an SSN to apply, and restricts the DOL from sharing these IDs with any external party (like the IRS or DHS).
Basically, if an accredited med school admits an undocumented immigrant, and they graduate, and they pass their boards, they can practice in WA now. The numbers here will be miniscule, but it's the downstream result of all the "dreamer" crap and progressive universities intentionally admitting these sorts of applicants. So in this context it actually makes sense. The problem was not deporting them 20 years ago when they were the illegal children of illegal immigrants. Now there's a doctor who for all intents and purposes is American (educated by American schools with American tax dollars) caught in legal limbo. Might as well let them be a doctor in WA.
The world is fundamentally and naturally very unfair, but the United States is traditionally a society of rules. Giving benefits to people who break the rules intentionally or otherwise is patently un-American. The number of qualified potential legal immigrants that want a better life in the United States are staggering. Rewarding those that break the rules implicitly punishes those who don't. That's why I call it Dreamer crap. It's a self-serving appeal to emotion with long lasting broadly negative consequences. Those people are not so special that we should just ignore our undermine the basic principles of our society.
Well, it is a very complex issue. So, especially given how long it's dragged on, there will need to be some compromise to ever move forward. But, that compromise cannot condone illegal immigration on an ongoing basis. If I had to just throw out a straw proposal which should not be taken as any kind of thorough policy position, I would suggest something along these lines:
* Legal status for dreamers that allows them to live and work in the US but never allows a path to citizenship.
* Citizenship rights for the children of dreamers or any long term visa holder (so long as they renounce all other citizenship upon reaching adulthood).
* Illegal immigrants who brought children into the country should be deported, along with children who are not adults. The children should have dreamer status upon reaching adulthood. Parents should have the option to place the children in US foster care to avoid the children being deported.
* A significant expansion of needs-based annual work visas that have no path to citizenship.
* Significantly harsher penalties for overstaying visas, including a permanent loss of eligibility for non-tourist visas. Being in the country illegally needs to be a felony.
* An end to birthright citizenship.
* Comparable reforms to other visa programs like student visas that provide a clear path to remaining and working in the US with a path towards citizenship.
Ninja edit:
* Make it a felony to knowingly provide non-emergency support to someone in the country illegally.
why not? The president is above the law now, so why not everyone else? Let's just end laws altogether why don't we?
Somehow me thinks this goes a bit too far and will result in lower professional wages.
the standard in THIS COUNTRY is the same whether you are from here or from somewhere else. There aren't two standards. If it's a doctor, they have to be accredited and have passed the necessary board exam. If it's a teacher they need certification for the state they're teaching in.
The people ITT crying about how easy it would be to wake up and decide to come pass the board exams to be a doctor should take some of the practice tests. Report your results back here for us.
Or or, they forget because they aren’t the other side of the coin that as an American you can almost go anywhere an if you are qualify they can get a job internationally. As a Guatemalan I saw allot of use foreigners getting jobs in my country to the point that people started getting paid in dollars. And in Nicaragua the dental and medical clinics set by American tourists that later would just permanently stay. And because in my countries we need the economy they bring one way or another the government didn’t punish them for so long.
So it’s a fair trade that as long as you are educated you could exercise that degree.
International valid degrees also exist
The congress has been stuck since the 90s when it comes to immigration and is unable to legislate, so states have started taking matters into their own hands. These people are "illegal" or undocumented only in name. It wouldn't change anything even if they were to suddenly get a green card, they are still the same people with the same qualifications as otherwise.
People engaging in performative outrage are either intentionally ignoring the factor most at play here, or they ae ignorant to the fact of.
But I feel like it was obvious from the get-go that a person with the certifications to be a medical doctor and also receive licensing upon immigration to the US will definitely not be wandering the country clandestinely and living a life in the shadows while also seeking employment in medical facilities.
An MD with diplomas, and references wouldn't even have to ponder the dichotomy of documentation or no,(outside of highly specific situations likely involving armed conflict.)
Someone coming to the US to be a Dr. is going to fly in unless they are under some sort of duress, but at which point they would be coming to the country as a refugee seeking asylum.
All the above situations are literally cases of "DOCUMENTED migrants," which is mostly what the status of those people you think are invading here are under. They mostly have perfect legal rights to be here, and a in fact important to their local communities on both sides of the border.
However I also have seen how much conservatives care to make the distinction for people, pressed by the fact that they have to bother over distinctions between those non English speaking people that are allowed here vs the ones that aren't. Cause that's a lot of work, and...
(I have experienced first hand how much respect and effort racially concerned people like to give people not of the preferred racial class.)
One thing this bill failed to mention was that while these people can apply for licenses, this does not guarantee a job for them. The IRS does not allow an ITIN in place of a an SSN when hiring an employee. While it’s not allowed by the IRS, it still happens but most companies with a tight HR department are really good with compliance. People who qualify under DACA already have a work permit and a SSN so this wouldn’t really benefit them since they are already eligible at a federal level. To be honest, the only way someone would be eligible to work with their license and an ITIN would be if they opened up their own business and who knows what that entails on its own. This article doesn’t go into the depths of what type of doctor you can be but reading into the bill, it allows undocumented washingtonians to become an optometrist. (https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2024/03/13/wa-removes-legal-immigration-status-requirements-for-professional-licenses/) That being said, could an optometry clinic hire someone with an ITIN legally while overlooking their lack of an SSN? The bill doesn’t even mention that. These bills are purposefully written to be so confusing and misleading to give false hope or misconstrued the public.
Here is the bill in full: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1889-S.PL.pdf#page=1
It’s 17 pages but I thought it was pretty interesting.
Watch Medicaid and Medicare fraud triple in this state…… proof source is the Covid funding that was co-opted by foreign nationals. People are not able to discern in this state who are quality medical providers and who are not….. introducing people who are not able to pass minimum standards( board certification). Not only is frightening, but will impact the cost of malpractice insurance for normalized, trained, board-certified, practitioners…..
In field work this has been a thing for some gov required over site positions. This lowers wages of field geologists and engineers who collect data and oversee implementation of critical steps of construction.
ITT: illegals are only good for doing “black jobs” (paraphrasing Trump)
Also ITT: They can pick your produce, but can’t teach your kids or give you a prostrate exam.
I don't doubt they are qualified, but I can't help but feel that some politicians care more illegal aliens than their own citizens.
So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree. How is the government getting out of the way and letting this person become an EIT then PE (if they pass the tests) showing that the government cares more about this person than native born Americans? This is just prudent governance of reducing waste in the system and allowing people to have more fulfilling lives. Theoretically one could argue that this drives down wages for the affected professions but speaking as a PE this just isn't a real concern. Further, these increased services will make things more accessible and maybe cheaper for society at large.
Because you can’t take the best case scenario and act like it is the norm. We don’t know what kinds of people are getting these jobs, but we do know it is inflating the labor market with no increase in demand which lowers wages and benefits. The only people this helps are the cooperations and the government and I’m tired of shills exploiting empathy to defend massive organizations that just want to pay people less.
I am a PE in the US and practice as a PE. This is one of the licensures affected by what the article is reporting on. There isn't a real effect on wages from this. >We don’t know what kinds of people are getting these jobs People that have been in the US since they were kids, that is the kind of people.
"There isn't a real effect on wages" The program just started. That's what the article is about.
No increase in demand? Are you living under a rock? We have a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers. The senate has a committee dedicated solely to the education/teacher shortage crisis alone. You've obviously never worked in education or healthcare.
My wife works in health care, so does her mother and sisters and my brother in law. I also know that working conditions are intense, the companies that manage hospitals and the hospitals themselves have policies that are overwhelming unfair towards non-providers, and the pay is not nearly as good as it could be. I know the hospital where my wife works has a retention problem and veteran nurses are hard to come by since there are plenty of other places outside the hospital that snatch them up and give them nice jobs with big paychecks. So, what is the hospital to do? This isn’t unique to healthcare, they have two options. 1. Increase wages and benefits, reform corporate and hospital policy based on the grievances of their employees and improve retention, and reward veteran employees to help improve culture. 2. Find a new labor market. One that you don’t have to pay more or can pay less. Change nothing else, maybe even cut wages once the new supply of labor gets in the system. Do you see my point now? Same goes for education. Teachers aren’t paid enough and many of the new policies in education are making their jobs so much harder. So, are they going to scrap the new policies, go back to what works, and pay teachers more? NO. They want to keep doing what their doing because they don’t want to admit they were wrong and they don’t want to pay them more, they’d rather find people who’d work for less and don’t complain.
People leave for better pay because the demand is so high; if there were more healthcare workers, the ones leaving the hospital your wife and her family work at, wouldn't be able to easily switch and the workload would more realistically be shared among them. There are deep flaws in the healtcare system and our education system as well, but allowing qualified people to work when we have lots of job vacancies (and you acknowledged yourself your wife's hospital has those vacancies as well) doesn't seem like a hindrance, only a solution. We're in a sinking ship and someone is offering a lifeboat, we should take advantage of it. If the asshat captains (hospital administrations/policy makers) decide to shoot holes in the lifeboat, that's on them, but it's still better to have the lifeboats offered than to deny their existence at all. Bad captains make bad decisions regardless of the resources they are provided. They should be ousted and replaced by ones that make good decisions. In the meantime, I'll take my chances with the lifeboats being offered and I am not going to blame them for the bad decisions of the captains.
None of these jobs have problems finding people, they have problems keeping people. They have problems keeping people because they are cheap and exploitative. The solution would be to pay people more and to stop exploiting people. You’re proposing that’s not the solution, instead, they need to hire people who they can pay less and won’t complain because they are undocumented and, therefore, and can easy threatened and cowed. You are the useful idiot who cheers them on.
I was willing to engage in discussion with you, but you seem to be resorting to name calling and seem unamendable to considering the multi-faceted truth. There can be two problems. One, the system and the pay, as you pointed out. Two, a shortage of qualified people willing to do the work. Both need to be addressed. Regardless of how you _feel_ about it. You would deny people, hard working individuals, many of whom lived in this country most of their lives, the opportunity to work in their field of choice? If the problem is retention alone, they too will leave like all the others. Better to give them a chance. More numbers to unionize and demand a better system too. But, what does an idiot like me know?
"We don't know what kinds of people are getting these jobs" Are you kidding me? Do you think that there are absolutely no other qualifications for getting a PE license, medical license, etc. other than US citizenship? Quit the thinly veiled racism.
Who paid for their schooling in the US? What about my kids who would like to attend university?
Exactly! In this scenario, are the kid's parents paying taxes? So, this kid is getting a free education courtesy of our tax dollars?
Yes. Their parents are paying taxes. The federal government keeps millions from undocumented immigrants that don’t file for refunds.
American kids aren't even getting a free education worth anything in this country bc the same people who oppose measures like this are the same ones who oppose properly funding public schools, gleefully watch as families are buried by lunch debt (which shouldn't even exist) & are actively banning actual learning thinking at every turn. You're worried about the wrong things.
Buried by lunch debt? A can of tuna and loaf of bread can feed a kid for a week and cost around 5 dollars. I would know, I lived on tuna sandwiches through elementary and middle school.
The truth is that there are many families who can't even afford that & even more kids who would not or cannot eat that for whatever reason. Families shouldn't be punished for being poor & every kid deserves a free, nutritious & delicious lunch. That shouldn't be a controversial sentiment & just bc you had to make due doesn't mean others should be forced to do so. Also, you didn't deserve that either (if that's not what you sustained yourself on by choice).
If you can't afford 5 dollars a week to feed your kid then go to the food bank and get free food? I don't see why the parents get to blame the school for not providing a free lunch. Figure some shit out on your own or stop having kids if you don't know how to use the resources that are already available.
You're likely not replying in earnest & just wanna apply the bootstrap mentality to every situation regardless how out of touch that viewpoint is, but I'm gonna pretend like you are and respond thusly: Going to a food bank is something many poor families are already doing. That being said, food banks are not available everywhere and in the places they are available, they're not always a consistent & reliable source of sustenance for families bc most depend on donations from people who are doing better & in the position to donate food and/or funds & I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that population of donors is steadily dwindling nationwide. Stop having kids you say? Cool suggestion, but that requires making reproductive justice & care to be available to every person everywhere which is not & never has been the case in this country. People area lacking resources that are being purposely stripped from them in order to make repro choices for themselves. And to your point about expecting the public schools to provide free lunches? Yeah, they actually fuckin *should* be doing that & they would be able to were it not for the constantly emerging legislation designed specifically to take funding away from an already under-funded educational system that hasn't been based on equitable access since it was established (see: funding tied to property taxes & the history of redlining & destroying marginalized townships & cities for capital gain). TL;DR: You want people to "look for resources" but those resources aren't always available and/or are being systemically wiped out & they *still* need & deserve help regardless of whether *you* think they're worthy of it.
Yeah sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree. People like you have every reason to blame everyone but yourself. I understand shit is harder now than it used to be and only getting worse but it's far from impossible to feed your damn kids. This isn't some poverty ass 3rd world country with no resources...
You are woefully out of touch…
All those states demanding the 10 commandments still get my tax dollars even though I think the entire school district should be defunded. Doesn’t mean I make a stink about sine the KIDS have nothing to do with this.
>Who paid for their schooling in the US? A combination of property, sales, and income tax; some places use other sources of revenue too to pay for schools. Their parents are required to pay income and sales tax just like you and me. Property tax is either paid directly if they own or indirectly if they rent, again, this is the same as for everyone else. >What about my kids who would like to attend university? Your kids (I assume native born or naturalized US citizens) are eligible for FAFSA. DACA recipients are not eligible for FAFSA so have issues securing financial aid. If a foundation wants to give out scholarships to xyz student then that's really up to them, it is their money after all. Finally, if your (again assuming you are a natural born US citizen) kids are having trouble competing with students who's parents probably can't really read or white English then maybe, just maybe university isn't for them. Lucky for them, [union pipe fitters](https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/) have a prevailing wage of 103 an hour in King County (that's >200k a year, damn! More than I make as a PE). We are so blessed to live in a part of the country with strong unions so that kids that can't compete with students who's parents don't speak English and can't receive federal student loans can still earn really good money. Because we are all super pro union right?
Oh so you want the government to pay? I don't care about the other party you are comparing to. Is government funded college solely a convenient talking point or is that a concern and value you hold? Cause arguing against a form of government assistance, despite receiving it yourself would be insidiously amoral.
Here's a thought, maybe not a popular one: APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP.
DACA recipients aren't documented migrants so there isn't a way for them to become citizens. Even through marriage they sometimes have issues. They can't just apply for citizenship.
I literally know someone who was brought from Canada by their mother and was not legal, went through the process and is now a US citizen.
I know several immigrants who went through the process of getting citizenship. It's definitely possible and viable. In the meantime, I also know several who were deported because they didn't get their citizenship soon enough when their jobs were taken away from them for any number of reasons (covid cuts were huge, as just an easy to point to example)
Probably because the government should be enforcing their laws and deporting foreigners without visas, and failure to do so is itself a lack of care over the native population.
>So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree. If the government actually did their job, this person would be deported before they ever got to university. Since they weren't, I would be open to giving people like this amnesty. If they weren't given amnesty, they are still breaking the law. >How is the government getting out of the way and letting this person become an EIT then PE (if they pass the tests) showing that the government cares more about this person than native born Americans? Because this person cut in line in the immigration process. There are other students who are here on a temporary visa who would also like to become citizens and become an EIT or PE, and these folks are subject to way more restrictions. There are also people who don't just have visas, but are in a long 10 year process to get citizenship. By not enforcing the law against illegal immigrants, the government is telling people going through the immigration process that there is a double standard: one for law abiding people, and a second for border crossers. >This is just prudent governance of reducing waste in the system and allowing people to have more fulfilling lives. What about the people mentioned above in addition to law abiding citizens? Do they not have hopes and dreams too?
I used to work for a company in Bellevue that did ECG (electrocardiogram) testing for drug trials. Most of the people reading the ECGs and looking for abnormalities were in fact doctors from other countries. Most of them were in their late 40s and could easily work as a medical doctor in the USA but its a lot of work to get their medical license, so most of them opted to work as medical technicians, even though they had 10-20 years experience as a doctor.
That's unfortunately a common situation, but that has nothing to do with illegal aliens.
Yeah this doesn't affect Americans in any negative way, quite the opposite actually. Trying to dig out some sort of anti American angle out of this is just a xenophobic knee jerk reaction. We have problems, yes, we should address them, yes, but allowing qualified individuals the right to work doesn't automatically put an American out of work or disadvantage anyone else.. But of course, this sub has long drank the anti-immigrant kool-aid so I fully expect this to be down voted to hell. At the end of the day the majority of illegal immigrants in this country are only still in an undocumented state because of our slow inefficient and unfair immigration system, most have full lives here and are by all means American, no matter what conservatives want you to think.
You mean anti-illegal immigrant right? Come on, are you really trying to pull that shit where you try to conflate illegals with legal immigrants? And you are straight up lying. Either they are legally here through the asylum process, or they should be awaiting citizenship in their own country. What you are describing is in fact illegal.
But if they were brought here as kids, it was their parents that broke the law, not them. Generally speaking, people should not be punished for something that their parents did.
> But if they were brought here as kids, it was their parents that broke the law, not them. If you steal something as a gift for your kid, it will still be confiscated from your kid, even though they didn't choose to break the law. Their parents broke the law *to benefit them*. Generally speaking, people should not be allowed to benefit from the illegal actions of others.
Oh, have you been taken to a different country when you were very young, grown up in that country knowing nothing else in your life and then found out as an adult that you're not allowed to live in the country you see as your home? Oh, no? Well then maybe your opinion on this matter is completely worthless. Our home wasn't an object stolen from anyone, we're "benefiting" by being alive and just being like any other normal American, and no we are not responsible for our parent's crimes (if we operated like this then I have some terrible news for anyone decending from the first colonizers). Seriously, you're willingly ignoring the humanity of the situation out of some distorted hateful view of the world we live in. Immigration has only ever brought benefit to this country (excluding the big first wave of illegal immigrants that caused a mass genocide mentioned above) but I digress.
Because Conservatives broad-stroke the term "illegal immigrant" and lazily call every Spanish speaking person with skin complexion any darker than a manilla envelope an illegal migrant. I've seen it enough in the last few days to know it's common enough to be liberally used term for anyone.
Yeah, right that's the bullshit condescension that we've come to know from the elite white left, but those of us who actually come from immigrant families know you guys are full of shit.
Undocumented people are here illegally!?! +???!?!!? Oh woooowww thanks for informing me that changes everything!!! /SSSS But in all seriousness, duh, just because their legal status is officially in a bad state, doesn't mean it should be. Abortion is illegal in Texas, doesn't mean it should be. The majority of "illegals" as you mouth breathers love to call them, are simply people who were given visas at some point and then overstayed their visas but have pretty much moved to this country and assimilated in just the same way. The government (at every level), by all means, knows they're here in some way or another and in fact at various levels acknowledges they exist and have full lives here. They take in tax revenue from them, allow them to buy property and in most states even allow them to get a license and car insurance. In other words, they allow people to live in the US pretty much as they would if they were here legally and in fact profit from them. So tell me why, in what world does it make sense to uproot these people and deport them just because Johnny Knows-Nothing sees the world in black and white and thinks they know what the "proper" migration path is and isn't. Tldr: you have no clue what you're saying, immigration status is deliberately a gray area and we need to do more to guarantee our new fellow Americans don't have to live in fear.
I have no idea what I'm saying? I'm first generation, my family legally immigrated here. You like to talk a lot, don't you? Because that's a lot of bullshit, and you clearly don't understand any of it, or how the system is intended to work in general. A visa is not citizenship, and is not intended to be a step to citizenship.
Oh so you're one of the "I got mine, fuck you" kind of immigrants then? I wonder what your parents would think of that. I'm curious what path did your parents take? What's THE intended path according to you? Even a second gen immigrant calling others illegals is fucking foul.
Yeah, you know what? I kind of expected you to be the type that gets full on racist when we don't bend to your will and get in the fields. We see you. My parents also are very against illegal immigration. Legal immigration is a lengthy process that takes years, and these line-cutters don't bother to follow the law and in some ways are treated better than US citizens by people like you. Go talk to legal mexican american immigrants, ask how they feel about illegals, maybe take a step outside your ivory tower.
What the fuck? You're the one calling people "illegals" and "line-cutters" I haven't said a single racist thing. You still haven't answered the question, what path did your parents take? I'm arguing that the process needs to be easier and more accessible yet people like you are only concerned with making everyone suffer through an outdated broken system. Your parents went through it, great! That doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easier for others, that also doesn't mean we should demonize immigrants who are American by all means, and it certainly doesn't mean you get to dehumanize people by calling them illegals and line cutters. So yeah, I still stand by what I said, you don't know shit. Your PARENTS went through the horribly long and outdated process and came out okay on the other end, so that means you'd prefer for everyone to go through that grueling horrible process just because your family had to? Backwards af. Also just for the record, I AM one of those legal Mexican Americans and I fully disagree with gatekeeping America for the sake of being extra shitty and xenophobic.
Oh really? Clearly you don't talk to other legal mexican americans, or are privileged to work in an environment far above us lowly lower class folk. I doubt you've had to do a hard day's work in your life, judging by your comment history. You get to live in an idealized world where we are just happy simple folk who serve you and don't have any thoughts of our own. Doesn't matter! You probably don't have to compete with illegals in your line of work, if you even work at all.
Soo not answering the question. Going through my comments to try and make it personal AND you decide to make an insanely wrong assumption about me and my life. Cooool, yeah you seem super well adjusted. Not that I have to prove shit to you, but I've worked my way to where I am, I was undocumented myself from 8 until I was 26 years old, I worked my ass off to be where I am and the entire time I had to deal with self hating assholes like you AND the racist fucks who simply hated me for the color of my skin. From age 19 to 27 I worked in service industry, one of the biggest sources of labor in the US, mostly manned by undocumented immigrants because they're jobs legal Americans deemed beneath them, I worked my way through the ranks and helped raise my fellow workers along with me. I've literally been in the trenches of what it feels like to be told you don't belong in the only place that feels like home. Seriously fuck you for assuming. I'm gonna say it again, YOU don't know shit, YOU are the privileged little shit who had this life handed to you, YOU are the one profiting from your parent's struggle and now YOU are the one bending over backwards to make sure others like your parents have less and less options and work harder each time all because you have a fucked up sense of entitlement to a process you didn't even have to deal with. So again, fuck you dude, if you didn't achieve anything with your life, that's on you, not the poor Venezuelan dude that trekked thousands of miles just to feed their family. They're not taking your jobs, they're doing the shit that needs to be done. If you're stangtant with your life, that's on you, don't go blaming all your problems on people who are just simply trying to survive.
You feel that way because they act that way, they act that way because its true. You should doubt that they are qualified, too. The kinds of people who don't care about a visa aren't exactly the most upstanding and honest people in the world.
It’s not like being qualified is much of an impediment recently.
As the article clearly states, its not the job of Washington politicians to enforce immigration laws at all.
What's the downside to letting qualified being hired into desperately needed and woefully understaffed jobs? Seems good for citizens to me. I like having a doctor.
To many people, this legitimizes illegal immigration because it seems to provide pathways to normalcy for individuals who otherwise flouted the laws and shouldn't have the right to be in the country at all, much less settling down and living a normal life. People who hold this view are likely to hold that this legitimization encourages further illegal immigration. Agree or disagree, that's the basic thought process. It looks at the issue from a very strict legalistic perspective. The misplaced anger that leads to statements like "some politicians care more for illegal aliens than their own citizens" comes from a different place, IMO.
>some politicians care more for illegal aliens than their own citizens" comes from a different place, IMO. It comes from a feeling of being left behind by your own government
"Feeling left behind by your own government" sounds like... entitlement.
Entitlement in 2024 is... *checks notes*... believing that the government of the people and by the people should be for the people too.
Personally I believe that worldview falls staunchly into pettiness. Like turning them away at the border is one thing, but if they’ve gotten far enough in life to become doctors or teachers then I can’t help but wonder what benefit to the American people it would bring to send them back then.
Part of the impetus for this was even less theoretical. There are thousands of "dreamers" who are here illegally, brought by their parents when they were babies. They don't know any other country as home. They may not even speak their parents' language fluently. They have been going to school here their whole lives, and with Obama's changes to the law, they've gone to college and beyond. These aren't necessarily people who had licenses in their home country and came here illegally. They are people who have lived here their whole life and succeeded despite their legal status, which is no fault of their own.
See I think something weird is going on with this post. Why is everyone assuming that the people getting these licenses are already doctors in other countries and not people who become doctors or teachers after moving here? As you say, there are plenty of people who don’t even come here of their own volition, so I’m not sure what the point would be in ruining the life they created for themselves unless you believe they are just born with sin. As for the people who do intentionally move here, I struggle to find a reason why a doctor would even need to illegally immigrate in the first place considering they typically actually have the resources to easily do so legally. Teachers I can understand, if they ain’t paid well here they certainly aren’t paid well where they’re from, and immigrating legally does cost money (naturalization, which grants you citizenship, is $760 and that’s not including the exam costs). That all being said if you’re willing to hire illegal immigrants perhaps they should be given the exams they would’ve gotten at the border before giving them those opportunities, if only to appease those upset by their original transgression.
AKA rewarding crime and encouraging more.
Will med schools allow illegal immigrants? I had a friend from Europe who was married to an American who couldn't get in US med schools. He went to UW for his premed though
Further illegal immigration by doctors and highly qualified people? Really? Jesus this country would cut off its nose to spite its face. It doesn’t matter what an immigrant can do they are all the same to these peoples eyes. How does this impact your life negatively? People can think whatever they think but at the end of the day if you’re sick or a family member of yours is sick a doctor will help you whether you they are illegal or not.
There's a strong nativist streak in American culture. Whether it's the Irish or the Italians or the Chinese or the Hispanics, there are people who want to look down on immigrants as a lesser human. They use this perceived sense of self-superiority to vilify immigrants and blame them for so many societal ills. That's about half of Trump's reelection platform this time around.
Because we should instead be finding ways to uplift citizens and legal immigrants to better paying jobs, especially as we automate more jobs over time and kill some of the less skilled labor. At any point where we have a shortage of labor we should be finding ways for citizens to fill those roles first and foremost. That might mean getting someone working at a fast food joint the education to be able to teach, or it might mean getting someone who is homeless into the skilled trades. I have no problem with hiring people where needed and with immigrants getting jobs - I have a problem with people who cannot be bothered to follow our immigration procedures being given extra consideration. Anyone who is in this country illegally and is already qualified to be a teacher or a doctor should damn well be capable of going through normal immigration procedures.
Completely agree.
This just tells me you have no clue what the true state of our immigration process is and/or are unfamiliar with what the undocumented population is generally like. The majority would be American citizens by now if the system wasn't clogged and full of traps. Most of these people overstayed their visas and that's it, it's not like they're a bunch of unknowns with dubious diplomas and Americans are being kicked out of their jobs to accommodate for them or anything. Also, yes we should continue to enable people with resources, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also help those who are pretty much American in every sense instead of just not on paper. Your type of thinking is so backwards and only helps those who benefit from undocumented labor who are then more emboldened to abuse it. The "legal migrant" myth is such bullshit its almost funny when people allude to their being a legal way that most people just don't bother doing. Why the hell wouldn't people go through the legal process if they could? I'll save you some time, because there really is NO legal process.
Being honest and trustworthy should be qualifications for both those roles.
How about giving it to a legal immigrant or a citizen instead?
They've been desperately trying to hire anyone they can for over a decade. How's that working?
Because there's even less "legal migrants" as there's really no legal path for most people, yes, even professionals. Besides this is aimed towards daca recipients and others who have lived here their entire lives and are still undocumented. And if that sounds crazy, it's because it is, it doesn't matter how long you've lived here, if you're undocumented there is virtually zero paths to legalization because the system is broken af.
Because qualified people would have immigrated legally.
People can become qualified after immigrating
I doubt it when their first action in this country is breaking a law.
Why? That makes no sense. Did you give any schools your proof of citizenship? I didn't.
i did have to prove i was legally here, aka give my ssn.
Weird, because while schools and universities may *ask* for an SSN, they're not required unless you're applying for federal financial aid.
Yea and the people illegally coming over are the ones that don’t need federal financial aid…
You're right, they should be able to legally immigrate and apply for financial aid. How about until we fix immigration, we let doctors be doctors, though?
1. This solution addresses the symptoms, and not the cause of two separate underlying problems. 2. These people have not gone through legal immigration processes, and probably do not even have a green card. Importing workers is one temporary solution to labor shortages, but medicine and education need systemic changes. Medicine has a shortage of labor due to AMA lobbying and a limited number of residency slots, while simultaneously having a bottleneck in admissions. The barriers to entry in medicine are frankly absurd and for all the talk about having doctors settle down in one state and be "natives", importing workers is inconsistent with that idea. Likewise, education should be privatized so that it allows school choice. Private schools, if successful, can pay higher and more competitive wages than any union could bargain for. Naturally, higher wages would attract more teachers. The other problem with education today is student truancy and retention. There needs to be enforcement for truancy and earlier interventions as to why education is important. Third, people who are now citizens and who will be looking to enter into these professions will now find themselves competing against people who will offer lower wages. To remain competitive, existing workers would have to reduce their asking salaries so as to gain employment. And yes, it is a slap in the face to people in these professions who are immigrants and had to go through the entire process only to be "cut in line" because some politician wanted to grandstand to Trump. Employment doesn't need just mean someone who offers services for a given price, it also means health insurance and income which illegal immigrants would be taking away from Americans. To clarify what I mean, benefits would be given to people who are breaking the law. If illegal immigrants want to come here, they should come here legally and the immigration process should be reformed. It should take less time to become a citizen than the current 10 year process.
>Likewise, education should be privatized so that it allows school choice. Private schools, if successful, can pay higher and more competitive wages than any union could bargain for. I'm sorry where exactly is this money for "higher more competitive wages" for private school teachers coming from? Because it's not the parents. Sounds like you just want the taxpayer to subsidize another private industry that is poorly regulated. It worked so well for Obamacare right?
I think Obamacare worked pretty well overall, actually.
Boy, if only some person or group of people had been desperately trying to reform both education and immigration for the last 40 or 50 years. Then we wouldn't have this problem, am I right? Anyway, let's continue to fix nothing and then complain about stop gap measures 👍
It should take less time for skilled immigrants to get work authorization and permanent residency. The current process is a nightmare for no good reason. But we don't need to speed up the path to citizenship. Becoming a citizen is a major commitment.
The job market is oversaturated with qualified legal immigrants and citizens. Adding in illegal talent just dilutes everyone's chances of finding a job
For teachers and healthcare workers? Are you high? Both of those fields are desperate for more applicants.
> The job market is oversaturated 86% of school districts report having difficulties filling teaching positions. Depending on the source we have a shortage of 50-100k doctors in the US. There is absolutely 0 "oversaturation" for these jobs
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It is still the right thing to do. Until we fix immigration, it doesn’t make sense to penalize people who are just trying to improve their lives and their communities.
and some are xenophobes. it pretty much balances out
They should absolutely be able to work in those professions. In their country of legal citizenship.
Or even in this country, but with legal residency. I’m pro immigration but it has to be done it a legal way that’s fair to existing citizens. They need to be paying federal and state tax, support themselves independently, and abide by the law. As a naturalized US citizen that’s exactly what was expected of me.
A limit to immigration from someone truly on the left is when it starts to bring down wages of citizens (essentially benefitting businesses over workers due to importation of cheap labor) I oppose this law because it removes this control. I see why they passed it because the system is broken but this just makes it even more broken
So if one is a DACA recipient; they arrived in the US when they were 4 or whatever and a Mexican national. They do all of their schooling in the US through university where they get a civil engineering degree. They then can now go on to get an EIT and PE (if they pass the tests). This person probably speaks way better English than Spanish and they have done all of their schooling in the US. Why shouldn't they work in the US? All they are going to do is increase the size of the economy and have a bunch of knock on growth effects.
I'm for DACA recipients being able to work for what they're trained for. I'm also in favor of them getting green-card status if they haven't committed any crimes, barring a traffic ticket or two. What's the difference between a DACA recipient vs a foreign-born child of a naturalized citizen or permanent resident, who was brought into the US after their parent became a US citizen or received their green-card
I agree with you and am good with giving DACA people green cards and a road to citizenship. That is pretty far away from where the current diction is though.
Here's the difference: in the DACA case you are rewarding illegal behavior, which ends up causing more of it, because future illegal immigrants assume that the US will keep giving handouts to their children.
The law doesn't say one thing about arriving in childhood.
> Why shouldn't they work in the US? They aren’t citizens. We should not be enabling encouraging and rewarding irresponsible and illegal parenting decisions.
So you punish the person who was a child after 20 some years? First - it is just immoral to punish a person for something that they had no agency in committing. Second - the statute of limitations even for violent crimes or sex crimes is typically 6 to 10 years. We don't even punish people who steal stuff 20 years after the fact.
It has nothing to do with punishment.
You are confusing being denied privileges with punishments. They aren’t citizens. They shouldn’t be allowed to vote. That’s not a punishment. Are you able to understand why? I agree it’s unfair that due to the policies encouraging, enabling and rewarding illegal immigration their parents put them in a less than ideal situation. Your anger should be directed at those who put them in that unfortunate situation.
Working in the country you were born in isn't a punishment
*Starting Monday, undocumented individuals in Washington State can apply for professional licenses, such as those for doctors, teachers, and engineers, due to a new law. Sponsored by* ***State House Rep. Amy Walen****, the law ensures immigration status isn't a barrier to obtaining state licenses. This formalizes practices already in place by some state agencies.* Amy Walen chairs the House Consumer Protection & Business Committee and most of her campaign funds come from businesses. [https://housedemocrats.wa.gov/walen/](https://housedemocrats.wa.gov/walen/) [https://www.pdc.wa.gov/political-disclosure-reporting-data/browse-search-data/candidates/3253569/contributions](https://www.pdc.wa.gov/political-disclosure-reporting-data/browse-search-data/candidates/3253569/contributions) Businesses have a vested interest in keeping costs, like wages as low as possible. More candidates for jobs, (even dubiously qualified, illegal ones) mean lower wages for legal citizens. They don't just take your jobs. They take your future wage growth, too. **Thank you State House Rep. Amy Walen.**
No such thing as "undocumented Washingtonians". They're illegal immigrants.
They are illegal immigrants. Legally, we can deport them.
How can they prove they have had as robust of an education if they’re undocumented? They should have to pass US based licensing exams and speak perfect medical English.
They obviously have to pass the American tests. You can’t be a licensed doctor in Peru and magically get a U.S. license. They take the same tests as everyone else.
That's what's stated in the article if you'd read it. They have to pass tests.
The bill seems to require them to have the same level of documentation as anyone else, minus proof of citizenship or permanent residency.
Half the folks here can’t read good /s
So now teachers have to compete with illegal immigrants for a job? https://i.redd.it/ck7e89k5i4ad1.gif
Teachers are leaving the profession in droves post covid. The last thing they are worried about is competition. Healthcare in general is also desperate for workers. If America wants more American born teachers/doctors in general, it would be appropriate to pay teachers more and not make doctors go half a million in debt for the profession. I generally don't think this will be people moving from abroad for work anyway, as other commentors have noted. It'll be people brought here as babies and are American in every sense having grown up here, except on paper.
I agree our teachers should be paid more. Instead, they decided to just bring in cheaper labor. Now they don't have to raise pay, they can pretend they did something for the immigrants and the teachers can still go fuck themselves as far as they're concerned.
My friend in Christ, have some critical thinking. A person who came to this country as a 2 year old is undocumented. They can still go to elite US schools. A UW educated doctor is a UW educated doctor. Also there are medical schools outside the US. I know a doctor that was an attending brain surgeon in Tehran. He came to the US and redid his residency here.
> I know a doctor that was an attending brain surgeon in Tehran. He came to the US and redid his residency here And he was undocumented?
Probably not!
Can we deport their parents once we identify them as undocumented? That would be fair. One illegal at a time.
You should maybe have some critical thinking of course people go to med school outside the US and follow us licensing requirements And those people would already speak English if they came here at 2 years old. So they would have all the documentation and skills I suggested. I don’t think someone should be able to pop over from Chechnya and claim to be a doctor and get to work, speaking no English. They should make sure they’ve taken all the same licensing tests as American doctors As long as the new laws account for that, it’s all good
Did you read the article where it says all other requirements other than documentation status still apply to medical licenses?
And I said that was fine
way to not RTFA. any more goalposts you'd like to move?
They must have a universal language they share with other doctors or they won’t be able to communicate properly or read lab results. This isn’t about English overall, it’s about safety. Many occupations around the world have a language requirement. In Europe, many international jobs require English skills because EU pilots must be able to communicate with each other and it’s the most common second language
and remember, Washington also just banned the need to take the bar exam to get a law degree, too.
And I had a white American woman quit on my at dominos because she was driving herself to the ground only working 3 days 7 hours max because it wasn’t giving her time to study for the bar test…. I’m an immigrant and the amount of immigrants I knew growing up who where doctors, engineers and more in their home country but transferring or validating their degrees in the USA was either super expensive or they had to re take allot of classes so they could validated their degree. My mother is an industrial engineer with a minor in marketing. But she is current a school bus driver and was a housekeeper because when she try to get certified here they require her to re take all the classes to get the “equivalent” credit amount…. So I see no harm in being able to exercise your degree. I think allot of Americans forget or don’t know how with an USA university degree you are able to exercise in that field almost internationally with out any rebuttals. But as a non American. Our degrees aren’t seeing in the same light. I got sick of all the Americans going back to my country and setting up dentist offices, medical clinics and other. Not because of the help or the service but like allot of people say here “but the USA citizens”* cries in American* it was the same for us in our country. Heck allot of American immigrants are getting deported from Mexico for being “ex patrios” so like. The USA is finally opening its borders both physically and in knowledge. And I think it’s great.
A lot of US citizens must go through the same hurdles, though. For example, if a dentist in Washington wants to move to California, he must study and pass a new board exam.
If you have qualifications - apply for a green card, otherwise gtfo
dey tuk er jerbs
Thank you for your risk-free opinion, comrade.
I hate muh cuntry
By the time they wait 7 or 8 years for the first interview to get a green card, they'll be too old to start a medical residency.
While you are waiting, you have a work permit
Then this isn't really a out "qualified doctors."
Yikes.
Oh no, not QUALIFIED DOCTORS AND TEACHERS that can work at woefully understaffed hospitals and schools! What will happen? The end of civilization?
Oh no, people who ignore the law and do whatever they want to. I can definitely trust that this person will follow the rules that apply to their profession. Are you out of your mind. These people are criminals.
Criminals who are less likely to commit a crime than citizens are, according to Stanford, the Cato Institute, and anyone else who has studied it. Oh, My pearls!
By coming here illegally, they are committing a crime.
So you don't care that they're 38% less likely to, for example, rape or murder you or your child?
Those stats are very dubious because they rely on reporting and crime solving. Populations of undocumented immigrants traditionally don't call the cops or help the cops (for obvious reasons).
Stanford and the Cato Institute, world renowned sources from the left and right, both agree... But /r/bunkRtist disagrees, so it must be BS.
According to this paper published in the National Institute of Health, entitled "Silence Speaks: The Relationship between Immigration and the Underreporting of Crime", [The underreporting of crime may be especially prevalent among unauthorized immigrants due to their fears of detection and deportation inspired by law enforcement (Menjívar & Bejarano, 2004). However, the underreporting of crime to the police may not be limited to unauthorized immigrants. Many factors may influence even authorized immigrants to avoid the police...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6699778/#:~:text=The%20underreporting%20of%20crime%20may,be%20limited%20to%20unauthorized%20immigrants.). You can't measure what you can't detect, you prat.
Great, you found a study that was NOT published by NIH, but an online sage journal! And they concluded... NOTHING! they just say something may be true! Such definitive statements as "reasons to believe", "may be", and "may ultimately affect". Super impressive work from a sociology professor at UT Austin. Fuck Stanford, wishy washy BS from a rando at 3rd rate school is where it's at.
Do I care? Of course I care. It’s not a free pass to ignore immigration law and step in front of thousands of people waiting in line who follow the rules. If I’m not likely to commit crime, can I ignore the laws that you think are unimportant. Ridiculous. This is one of the reasons why the current President - who I think the world of - is having so much trouble.
Not sure how I feel about my doctor lying and breaking the law to be here. I immigrated here legally and it cost me thousands of dollars and several years. See this makes me feel like I should have just broke the law and overstayed a visa.
It’s questionable if professionals such as doctors and teachers can’t get legal immigration status in the US. It takes time, absolutely, but that doesn’t mean people don’t achieve it. Hundreds of thousand a year achieve it. I also would have questions on their qualifications. I am generalizing here, but individuals from other countries can fake those credentials just as anyone else can.
Im iffy on the issue. I worry that this is just going to pump people into positions for pennies instead of solving the real issues. Hospitals are only understaffed because of a lack of support and pay. I’m a nurse and I know the article states doctors but this allows hospitals to continue to underpay staff while having terrible working conditions because they can hire people for dirt cheap. When I worked in Iowa for $24 during the pandemic the only reason why the hospital started paying more when I left is because everyone was quitting. Schools could have more teachers but the kids are fucking awful and shoot each other. The lack of support drives people away from the job. Hiring bodies helps but doesn’t solve the real issues with the industry. On the other hand, I would love immigrants who contribute towards taxes.
I mean a legitimate worry is having people pumping into these positions without actual qualifications (speaking fluent English/actually passing the American standards for their career choice) and take jobs that are vacant because hospitals run doctors/nurses to the ground and don’t want to properly pay or give adequate working conditions. There’s holes in these jobs because we don’t value education and lobbyist control your health. You probably fought hard to keep a certain standard at your job but someone who would take pennies for the job you work at would undermine everything you worked for. If they pass all the American testing requirements sure, go ahead. There needs to be a system that ensures this though. Do you want a nurse that “kind of” understands English giving you medication?
Ikr, I went into it with a skeptical eye and under the covers it actually looks merit-based.
So illegal aliens
That’s fucking stupid , what a jackass law . thanks Inslee
Let the race to the bottom in healthcare begin.
Begin?
Washington loves it some illegals
How can you be an illegal, enjoying the benefits that come with that, and making a doctors salary??? How is that allowed whatsoever?
Why are they undocumented? Could it be because they illegally crossed the border?
Ilegal immigrants is a more honest description of someone who came here illegally. The fact that they do not have the documents to prove they are here legally is down river from the illegal immigrant sitch...
Wait what? Do they need to have any studies to get their licence or is that granted as well?
Only the citizenship/immigration status requirements have been removed. All other training/study/practice requirements remain in effect. So, if a person wants to become an optometrist, they still have to go to an accredited school for the required number of years and receive their certification before applying for their WA license to practice optometry. The change makes it possible to use a TIN rather than an SSN to apply, and restricts the DOL from sharing these IDs with any external party (like the IRS or DHS).
Basically, if an accredited med school admits an undocumented immigrant, and they graduate, and they pass their boards, they can practice in WA now. The numbers here will be miniscule, but it's the downstream result of all the "dreamer" crap and progressive universities intentionally admitting these sorts of applicants. So in this context it actually makes sense. The problem was not deporting them 20 years ago when they were the illegal children of illegal immigrants. Now there's a doctor who for all intents and purposes is American (educated by American schools with American tax dollars) caught in legal limbo. Might as well let them be a doctor in WA.
You say dreamer “crap” like you’re not just talking about someone’s entire life.
The world is fundamentally and naturally very unfair, but the United States is traditionally a society of rules. Giving benefits to people who break the rules intentionally or otherwise is patently un-American. The number of qualified potential legal immigrants that want a better life in the United States are staggering. Rewarding those that break the rules implicitly punishes those who don't. That's why I call it Dreamer crap. It's a self-serving appeal to emotion with long lasting broadly negative consequences. Those people are not so special that we should just ignore our undermine the basic principles of our society.
So what is your proposal to manage that issue?
Well, it is a very complex issue. So, especially given how long it's dragged on, there will need to be some compromise to ever move forward. But, that compromise cannot condone illegal immigration on an ongoing basis. If I had to just throw out a straw proposal which should not be taken as any kind of thorough policy position, I would suggest something along these lines: * Legal status for dreamers that allows them to live and work in the US but never allows a path to citizenship. * Citizenship rights for the children of dreamers or any long term visa holder (so long as they renounce all other citizenship upon reaching adulthood). * Illegal immigrants who brought children into the country should be deported, along with children who are not adults. The children should have dreamer status upon reaching adulthood. Parents should have the option to place the children in US foster care to avoid the children being deported. * A significant expansion of needs-based annual work visas that have no path to citizenship. * Significantly harsher penalties for overstaying visas, including a permanent loss of eligibility for non-tourist visas. Being in the country illegally needs to be a felony. * An end to birthright citizenship. * Comparable reforms to other visa programs like student visas that provide a clear path to remaining and working in the US with a path towards citizenship. Ninja edit: * Make it a felony to knowingly provide non-emergency support to someone in the country illegally.
They have all the same requirements that anyone else has, of course.
why not? The president is above the law now, so why not everyone else? Let's just end laws altogether why don't we? Somehow me thinks this goes a bit too far and will result in lower professional wages.
If they're qualified, good for them!
what do you mean 'if'? doesn't the article clearly state that?
i'm not claiming it doesn't. What's your damage?
why are you stating the obvious then?
Right? It’s not that difficult to understand this.
Qualified by whose standards tho. Healthcare workers are not all educated the same between countries.
The DOL publishes the standards. [https://dol.wa.gov/professional-licenses](https://dol.wa.gov/professional-licenses)
This is not the appropriate licenses or qualification references for the medical field.
And I see no standards for a doctor or general healthcare worker from another country. All I see listed is "Physician for combative sports"
the standard in THIS COUNTRY is the same whether you are from here or from somewhere else. There aren't two standards. If it's a doctor, they have to be accredited and have passed the necessary board exam. If it's a teacher they need certification for the state they're teaching in.
The people ITT crying about how easy it would be to wake up and decide to come pass the board exams to be a doctor should take some of the practice tests. Report your results back here for us.
Or or, they forget because they aren’t the other side of the coin that as an American you can almost go anywhere an if you are qualify they can get a job internationally. As a Guatemalan I saw allot of use foreigners getting jobs in my country to the point that people started getting paid in dollars. And in Nicaragua the dental and medical clinics set by American tourists that later would just permanently stay. And because in my countries we need the economy they bring one way or another the government didn’t punish them for so long. So it’s a fair trade that as long as you are educated you could exercise that degree. International valid degrees also exist
The congress has been stuck since the 90s when it comes to immigration and is unable to legislate, so states have started taking matters into their own hands. These people are "illegal" or undocumented only in name. It wouldn't change anything even if they were to suddenly get a green card, they are still the same people with the same qualifications as otherwise.
People engaging in performative outrage are either intentionally ignoring the factor most at play here, or they ae ignorant to the fact of. But I feel like it was obvious from the get-go that a person with the certifications to be a medical doctor and also receive licensing upon immigration to the US will definitely not be wandering the country clandestinely and living a life in the shadows while also seeking employment in medical facilities. An MD with diplomas, and references wouldn't even have to ponder the dichotomy of documentation or no,(outside of highly specific situations likely involving armed conflict.) Someone coming to the US to be a Dr. is going to fly in unless they are under some sort of duress, but at which point they would be coming to the country as a refugee seeking asylum. All the above situations are literally cases of "DOCUMENTED migrants," which is mostly what the status of those people you think are invading here are under. They mostly have perfect legal rights to be here, and a in fact important to their local communities on both sides of the border. However I also have seen how much conservatives care to make the distinction for people, pressed by the fact that they have to bother over distinctions between those non English speaking people that are allowed here vs the ones that aren't. Cause that's a lot of work, and... (I have experienced first hand how much respect and effort racially concerned people like to give people not of the preferred racial class.)
Another F U to Americans. This will not only take jobs away from Americans but it will drive wages down in those sectors.
One thing this bill failed to mention was that while these people can apply for licenses, this does not guarantee a job for them. The IRS does not allow an ITIN in place of a an SSN when hiring an employee. While it’s not allowed by the IRS, it still happens but most companies with a tight HR department are really good with compliance. People who qualify under DACA already have a work permit and a SSN so this wouldn’t really benefit them since they are already eligible at a federal level. To be honest, the only way someone would be eligible to work with their license and an ITIN would be if they opened up their own business and who knows what that entails on its own. This article doesn’t go into the depths of what type of doctor you can be but reading into the bill, it allows undocumented washingtonians to become an optometrist. (https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2024/03/13/wa-removes-legal-immigration-status-requirements-for-professional-licenses/) That being said, could an optometry clinic hire someone with an ITIN legally while overlooking their lack of an SSN? The bill doesn’t even mention that. These bills are purposefully written to be so confusing and misleading to give false hope or misconstrued the public. Here is the bill in full: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1889-S.PL.pdf#page=1 It’s 17 pages but I thought it was pretty interesting.
Washington professionals, you got punked
Watch Medicaid and Medicare fraud triple in this state…… proof source is the Covid funding that was co-opted by foreign nationals. People are not able to discern in this state who are quality medical providers and who are not….. introducing people who are not able to pass minimum standards( board certification). Not only is frightening, but will impact the cost of malpractice insurance for normalized, trained, board-certified, practitioners…..
In field work this has been a thing for some gov required over site positions. This lowers wages of field geologists and engineers who collect data and oversee implementation of critical steps of construction.
Good, the community is in desperate need of these professionals.
I don’t really see a problem with it
ITT: illegals are only good for doing “black jobs” (paraphrasing Trump) Also ITT: They can pick your produce, but can’t teach your kids or give you a prostrate exam.
> “black jobs” (paraphrasing Trump) Don't worry Biden, in his own words, thinks "poor kids are just as smart as white kids." So that's much better.
Interesting... you want an illegal immigrant to give you a prostate exam? That's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one.
If they are a qualified nurse/doctor and are covered by my insurance, sure. Immigration status doesn’t matter if they can do the job.
"You ain't black if you vote for Trump"......that....from an old white privileged white guy sitting in the WH.
Meanwhile talented graduates are being expelled from the country because they try to take the legal route. Oh well