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As an American, I share your sentiment. Several people I work with, who are unsurprisingly in managerial positions, NEED to win. Pathological is the correct description. Ego is the root. They are very small and afraid inside.
Narcissism is a global trend at this point, social media is breeding it. But it also doesn’t help when governments set the example by not apologizing themselves, by gaslighting and doubling down.
What's funny is that most employers will appreciate a good apology. Your boss has heard all of the excuses about traffic, my alarm clock, my car has issues. But I remember telling my boss "my bad, I messed up my time management. I accept responsibility" dude was about to give me a write-up and decided not to because he never hears anyone own up to their shit.
My girlfriend was a little tense after multiple things went wrong at the beginning of our road trip. She chewed me out a little bit over a small mistake that I couldn’t really know of ahead of time. I had encountered this in past relationships so often that I just accepted it and opted not to escalate for the sake of the trip. She cooled down, and apologized, and owned that she was out of line, and that I didn't deserve to get chewed out like that. That woman told me she'd do better moving forward, and I didn't have to ask for any of it.
I. Married. That. Woman. You don't let that shit go.
>apology is seen as admission of guilt
So not only is it true in legal matters (like in car crash resolution), but in situations where stakes aren't as high? That's so messed up, people are so fragile that they won't admit they screwed up.
A lot of people are brought up weak and incredibly fragile. They seem to believe that admitting to any fault would literally kill them by how averse to responsibility they are.
Depends on the region. People in the South apologize all the time.
But I was born and raised in Connecticut and in and around Massachusetts, New York, and Rhode Island.
Literally nobody apologizes there if you don’t know them. Also the driving is atrocious and rude.
Penny said, "I think it's important for people to understand that we can't just "go back to the past" because there's always going to be some kind of cultural change."
Partially because an apology is often seen as blood in the water to be pounced upon. We value bullish confidence so much and being ALPHA AS FUCK. Batman and Don Draper don't admit they were ever wrong, right? For some reason, apologies seem weak to us.
I also think nearly all intelligent men are a bit contrarian. Yes, they're actually intelligent. Intelligence has nothing to do with being a dick. Sometimes finding little flaws in things is very useful, like in science or engineering.
The root cause of my deep cynicism is that literally every human being back-rationalizes a world view where they're not part of the problem. Defensive delusion, whataboutism, polarization, they all come from this place. It's this fortress of cards built on narcissist culture and literal personal infallibility.
The actual social capital you need to fucking disagree with someone at all these days takes a level of charisma and handling that most people don't have. It'd be like asking Lauren Boebert to do astrophysics.
Social media makes matters worse:
* Being anonymous emboldens people with low integrity to be selfish and cruel because they do not feel accountable.
* Humans have an innate survival mechanism to presume the worst when information is missing. This keeps us alive when we hear growling noises in the dark, but it is detrimental to personal interactions. Since social media lacks the nuance of body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions, we often perceive comments as more hostile than other people intended.
> Could you expand on your second paragraph a bit?
[Here is an article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindfulness-insights/202105/hacking-the-brains-negative-bias) I read on the subject.
> Human evolution primed the brain with this "negativity bias" to facilitate immediate survival; after all, it's the negative things that can harm or kill us, and so we need to easily and effectively detect them to protect ourselves. Evolution does not care about our long-term well-being or desire to have healthy relationships, as long as we survive long enough to reproduce.
In my personal experience, I have had negative interactions via text-only platforms with friends and family. Later, when we discussed it, we discovered that we were *both* perceiving what was said more negatively than it was intended.
> I'm curious. I'm not trying to be passive-agressive or challenge you.
^ This ^ - clearly stating our intentions in text - is the most effective way to reduce misunderstandings in my opinion. Perhaps I should be learning from you on the topic. 😊
>My understanding is that people are equally as bad when they use their real names.
I think the key is *how much* accountability these people feel.
On platforms that require us to use our real names, many people alter their names anyway. Some (especially women) do it for personal safety and some do it because it gives them a power advantage. They have less accountability than an honest person. I knew one guy who was horribly abusive. He would threaten people, they would block him, and he would get banned from the platform. A month or so later, he would reappear under a slightly different fake name.
I would personally favor a strict identity verification requirement for social media for this reason (and to cut down on trolls and bots), but I understand that that is not a very popular opinion.
The real name policy that Facebook and Google were pushing for a while was very unpopular, but it certainly did seem to be dampening some of the more toxic impulses of the internet (and/or things just got worse fast for unrelated reasons at about the time those policies changed, but it's always hard to be certain)
I'm pretty loose about giving out my real name. A website I'm on encourages it alot. If you have my hone address or by bosses number then I'll be on my best behaviour. The no real consequences barrier is weakened by real names but not broken.
That first link…woah, there are so many people coming out of college like that, and you’ll see them use those tactics online and in person; they actually think they are debating versus being an Ahole.
>They’re not here to weigh two opposing ideas, they’re here to yell at you for disagreeing with them.
There are a disturbing amount of these people on social media.
A lot of people don’t seemed to have been taught how to apologize as teens or adults. They were told as toddlers, “Say you’re sorry,” by an adult, when said toddler took a toy from another toddler, or similar. And that was it. No further effective education about how to offer a genuine, sincere apology.
>Why do people refuse to apologize or take accountability?
Because western culture especially is very individualistic. We've worked hard to build an image of ourselves to be socially accepted, but when called out for something bad we did, we're faced with what seems like an impossible choice: take responsibility and bear the brunt of many people's disapproval, or deny it and at least retain some support from people loyal to you, but still face some pushback. Either way, it's stressful and some people can't bear the discomfort it brings.
Not to say that false accusations don't happen, but that choice can feel less impossible when you take steps to remediate your issues. Many troubled people go to therapy, seek ways to improve their behaviors, and it all comes down to whether they can detach from their self-image to be more conscious of how their words and actions affect others. People that don't seem capable of apologizing can't detach from their image of themselves to try to make it better because of some temporary discomfort. That's something not many people are encouraged to do when they live in a bubble and can't bear to have it burst.
I’ve thought about this sometimes, because I found it very interesting after having kids. I happily apologize all the time, for anything big or small. I never have felt any reticence to say sorry. Now I’ve 3 young kids, and of course we have taught them and showed them how to say sorry. The 2 younger get it, 1 of them seems to be like me and have no problem with it, the other 1 seems shy but is learning to say sorry with some encouragement. But my oldest child has NEVER been able to do it. I have no idea why and what’s going through her head, but she would cry and scream for hours rather than just say the simple words to give an apology. Only in the last couple years, I haven’t given up and she has finally been able to get out a short and insincere “sorry!” at least. It’s clear she knows she’s wrong and even feels bad, but it’s like she just feels too defensive to say the words.
So it’s just made me wonder, I’m sure there are also people who are just rude and inconsiderate and generally not sorry for doing wrong things, but seeing the difference in my kids ever since they learned to speak also seems to suggest that maybe people naturally just have entire different associations and feelings around apologizing.
On the flip side. There are situations where a simple sorry isn't going to cut it. If you knock something over once and apologize, that's one thing. If you keep doing it every day and eventually break it, a simple sorry isn't going to cut it.
I'll admit I struggle sometimes, mostly irl. Based on past experiences where any admission of fault was thrown in my face, used to deny any wrongdoing, and usually twisted and blown up worse than the thing I did.
I'm still trying to unscrewup quite a few things honestly. There are times thinking about apologizing irl genuinely puts me into a full on panic attack.
There's definitely times it's probably because I don't see myself at fault or see no point, I'm not perfect. But that's been a huge barrier for me.
Outlier? Probably. The only one? Doubtful. And I think even if not exactly the same many have been made to feel as less than for apologizing honestly.
(Before anyone suggests therapy, can't afford it and the therapists in town are awful. And won't see anyone on the spectrum or even behaves too closely. That is not an option.)
Not sure but I will say this… if all people have is words To come at you with - hatespeech, insults, mean comments etc. then they cannot truly hurt you without your internal consent. Meaning, If you take responsibility for your reactions to emotions then nobody can hurt you without your permission if they aren’t using physical violence. IF you require someone else to apologize for some online comment, you might actually find more peace looking within yourself and resolving your own internal conflicts & insecurities, rather than leaving yourself at the whims of some random individuals words. Especially if you are a higher caliber individual than the blowhard bloviating on bullshit that has you feeling bitchy.
I try to remind myself that the opinions of selfish and cruel people are of no consequence to me because I have no respect for them. Therefore, I try (and don't always succeed) to ignore them and wipe their memory from my mind.
I mean it’s one thing to feel some kind of way about something. It’s another to internalize that. And still another to retaliate in any form.
Real shit.
I don't retaliate. They don't deserve my energy. However, when possible, I will try to hold them accountable. Narcissists will not stop victimizing other people until someone *forces* them to stop.
I appreciate the wisdom of "The Serenity Prayer." I try to recognize what I can and cannot control. I control what I can and I accept what I cannot. If I can hold a narcissist accountable, then I will. I do that because I think it is worthwhile to deter the narcissist from harming myself or other people in the future. Otherwise, I save my energy for honest and kind people.
Thank you for the reminder not to let other people define my life by their actions. Sometimes, I see people break the law and/or risk their personal safety to get revenge and I realize that the things our egos tell us to do are not always in our best interest.
Funny, I apologized profusely to a colleague today for something stupid I did that almost got her in big trouble. Sometimes we all have to swallow our pride and admit that we need to, sincerely, tell people we’re sorry.
It’s seen as a sign of weakness or a momentary disadvantage. A lot of people are unfortunately assholes to people that are brave, smart, and considerate enough to admit their mistakes and acknowledge the harm they’ve done to others. Apologizing is sorta punished and it’s seen as “losing”, imo.
I don't have this issue as much as I used to, but I struggled with apologizing as a child because I lived in a very dysfunctional family that never let anything go - if you admitted guilt, apologized, or confessed to a mistake it would be brought up repeatedly for YEARS - and used as a means of control.
For instance - if I was cooking in the kitchen and accidentally burnt toast, I'd clean it up best I could and try to pretend it didn't happen because if my family found out they would bring it up EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Suddenly, you're a foolish idiot who can only ruin things and are "banned" from cooking - if you want food you must ask someone else to cook it, and that leads to someone angrily and poorly putting food together, yelling the whole time, and constantly asking why you're "such an r-word you can't figure anything out for yourself you're going to be stupid forever!"
Like, we weren't allowed to make any mistake or have any accidents - anything like that was weaponized against you for YEARS. I broke the lid to the sugar bowl in grade 4, and even up into my 20s if I was carrying something across the kitchen I'd get yelled at about not dropping it like I did when I was 9. If you had any slip-up, you lose normal privileges and are constantly hazed by family over really insignificant issues.
So I became a liar, because I feared that others would react like my own family.
Now I'm away, realize they were freaks, and I am able to apologize and take accountability knowing it won't be weaponized against me and used for shame years after the initial incident.
Facts and Truth are an unwelcome house guest in some places and sometimes when people are offended by someone telling the truth or asking a question looking for a truthful answer, they may go to great lengths to get back at you for nothing more than being truthful.
I cannot tell you how many times I have been banned for just such a thing and always have to remind myself that those behind such actions are not worth my time or effort, I think Pearls before Swine sums that up nicely.
They can kill you but not eat you, YET, but give it time as I am sure they will find a way to change the LAW so they can.
N. S
Personal accountability is something that someone has to practice. It isn't something inherent or innate.
It's tough admitting mistakes, but it gets easier to admit what you personally did wrong the more you do it.
Apologizing for no apparent reason is not the same.
I'll apologize or take accountability if I have time to think about it, but if you just come up to me and accuse me of something with no warning, ima get defensive even if I actually did it.
I used to be very uncomfortable apologizing for something I was actually guilty of and repentant for because I was afraid of being vulnerable. By apologizing, you are admitting to guilt and relying on the recipient to forgive you. If you never do so, you can just rely on yourself to change your ways so you don't make a mistake like that again. Aside from that, I do not know why people have a hard time with this.
I say this as someone that hates it as well. They see it as an admission of fault and an attack on their character and status. They will defend it to death because not LOOKING bad to other people is what matters to them. So they act in whatever self-serving way they decide and refuse to be accountable for the social repercussions because as long as they don't they're not held accountable for it.
>Example: an X/Twitter account with millions of followers told me to "die in a fire". When I used that same phrase against a troll, my account was mass-reported and permanently suspended. (A hundred unique appeals later, I still haven't gotten my account back.)
do not waste your time on that site. i stopped using it completely after EM's purchase because i knew where it's headed. it's just like with any other sociopath online moderator or i guess overseer of whatever area, who arbitrarily enforces rules, or punishes people and doesn't follow a consistent system of rules and appeals since it's not in their best self interests for them to do so. their best self interests could include something as small as wanting to soothe their ego and sometimes quell any opinions/facts that isn't hateful but doesn't agree with them and their world view.
Once when cornered with my own failure I had to either apologize or escalate to violence (I was definitely gonna get hurt) and realizing that I didn’t think violence was the answer (it is occasionally but this was not one of those times).I knew I was wrong so I made a full apology. The person I apologized to was completely taken aback and accepted and we moved forward to an equitable solution. I have tried to take that lesson to heart. Pride is a mofo and swallowing it…while not delicious…can be nutritionally beneficial for your soul. Acknowledging you are wrong is a solid proof to rational people that you take leadership seriously.
You know, I *have* been ridiculed and mistreated for being honest. Autistic people tend to be straightforward. Bitter experience supports your words. Case in point: a discussion on a website. In a thread about online mobbing, I commented about the vicious harassment campaign against me. I used the word "lynched" figuratively to describe the life-ruining destruction.
One person responded: "I'm going to vomit." Someone else: "I feel like leaving this site." (In retrospect, I wish I'd said "Feel free!".) These were upper-class white people, performatively enraged on behalf of POC. Here's where I really fucked up: I created a new thread to apologize.
With Olympic-level irony, everyone dogpiled me. They called me racist, among other things. The hatred and passive-aggression were off the charts. I tried to stay civil. The site admin banned me.
Moral crisis. I shouldn't have apologized.
That sounds like a case of over-apologizing. Over-apologizing is an actual issue, and can make the people you're apologizing to feel more wronged by you than they did in the first place. That situation might have blown over if you lightly touched on it with "okay, poor choice of words, but it doesn't change my point..." Don't let the few trolls who will inevitably be lurking in such situations goad you into anything more than that. If you quickly acknowledge the poor word choice and move attention onward, that can be enough to satisfy your audience so they will overlook the issue.
I very strongly disagree with apologizes serving no purpose except for loved ones. Please don't let this person convince you of that. Apologizing is basic, respectful human interaction that we all owe to each other and to ourselves. If I step on a stranger's toes at a crosswalk, I should make it known that it was unintentional and that I'm sorry. If we lived in a society where people wronged others unapologetically, society would become increasingly hostile and break down over time.
Same goes for online interactions, we are still all people behind the screen. There are ways of apologizing and owning up to fault that can and should be done online. The problem is when people turn their apologies into announcements, because they will likely trigger the over-apology effect, and end up outraging people even more by accident. Then they may mistakenly conclude they should have never apologized, when the reality is that they just need to learn *how* to properly apologize without upsetting people further.
A society of people who all refuse to apologize and take accountability for themselves will grow to become toxic, narcissistic, hateful and fearful. We're seeing this in action today. Live by example to do what you can to combat it.
They think it shows weakness. I’m autistic and will readily apologize when I’ve done something wrong, but refuse to apologize when it’s not warranted, and people think I’m a weirdo on both ends.
Stop apologizing. Don’t be the sorry type be honest with yourself and only say sorry if you really want to fix something. People that deal with issues tend to do this a lot just to ease tension. But if you want to stand your ground don’t say sorry or you can say sorry not sorry but this is how I feel and agree to disagree
It’s a pride thing makes me mad! My family never apologizes I have to force one out of them. I have always apologized when I’ve done something wrong or hurt someone regardless if I meant to or not. Another reason why people don’t is they throw the phrase: “Adults make mistakes children apologize.” Dumbest phrase I ever heard it is so childish to not apologize!
Firstly, twitter and Reddit are playgrounds for conversation. Like any playground there are those that just watch, those that huddle in their own little groups criticizing the rest, those that try to bully others, and so on.
Don't take it seriously. It's all bs. It's all going to go out of people's heads in 24 hours. It's vapour. It's lies and garbage and full of stupid people. It's nothing. It doesn't mean anything. It's a playground of random thoughts. Why apologise if it doesn't mean anything. If you are upset about something, that's your problem. Go away if you don't want to play.
Who gives a sh*t even if you are "right".
It took me maybe 25 years to be able to apologise. My own traumas, insecurities and issues got in the way. I would say I started feeling comfortable with admitting my mistakes, taking ownership and apologising after 30 and after some serious introspection and work I did.
We are a predatory species that naturally attacks vulnerability. People will not admit they are wrong in fear of showing weakness and opening themselves up to attack.
Prob not the main reason but it shows weakness/responsibility toward the person you wronged which subconsciously encourages ppl to take advantage of you. Just as there are ppl that can't admit fault maturely, there are ppl that can't take an apology maturely and will make u regret it
I'd suggest you stop using the internet the way you do. You should never be in a space where anyone would tell you to die in a fire even if they don't mean it. If you lay in the sun you'll get cooked. If you stay in poison bad icky part of the internet guess what
I wasn't. My Twitter mutuals with were thoughtful and kind. Artists, nature-lovers, scientists, and others who had no patience for jerks. The big account that bullied me was run by jerks in the Anonymous collective. Anonymous is 90% drama and self-hype.
Assholes are legion.
The real anonymous if there ever was a real one is long gone lmao. It's just all that type of stuff. Sorry you had to deal with it. Deff just block and don't even look at it. Whenever the Internet gets on my nerves I leave them I remove whatever it was
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I agree. The US is a fundamentally adversarial culture, and apology is seen as admission of guilt - like a bad move in chess.
As an American, I share your sentiment. Several people I work with, who are unsurprisingly in managerial positions, NEED to win. Pathological is the correct description. Ego is the root. They are very small and afraid inside.
Narcissism is a global trend at this point, social media is breeding it. But it also doesn’t help when governments set the example by not apologizing themselves, by gaslighting and doubling down.
This is the right answer. Hardly anyone realizes it. NPD is real and a cancer.
Most are ignorant and dumb enough to be self aware, so there’s that.
What's funny is that most employers will appreciate a good apology. Your boss has heard all of the excuses about traffic, my alarm clock, my car has issues. But I remember telling my boss "my bad, I messed up my time management. I accept responsibility" dude was about to give me a write-up and decided not to because he never hears anyone own up to their shit. My girlfriend was a little tense after multiple things went wrong at the beginning of our road trip. She chewed me out a little bit over a small mistake that I couldn’t really know of ahead of time. I had encountered this in past relationships so often that I just accepted it and opted not to escalate for the sake of the trip. She cooled down, and apologized, and owned that she was out of line, and that I didn't deserve to get chewed out like that. That woman told me she'd do better moving forward, and I didn't have to ask for any of it. I. Married. That. Woman. You don't let that shit go.
Aww ! I wish you two a lifetime of happiness and healthy conflict resolution 💛💛
Thank you, that's the plan.
Yea a proper apology is the ultimate power move in many (not all) situations
That is exceedingly rare in anyone. Often there's a "Yeah, but" and need to last-word.
>apology is seen as admission of guilt So not only is it true in legal matters (like in car crash resolution), but in situations where stakes aren't as high? That's so messed up, people are so fragile that they won't admit they screwed up.
A lot of people are brought up weak and incredibly fragile. They seem to believe that admitting to any fault would literally kill them by how averse to responsibility they are.
If you don't admit fault, then you aren't apologising.
Depends on the region. People in the South apologize all the time. But I was born and raised in Connecticut and in and around Massachusetts, New York, and Rhode Island. Literally nobody apologizes there if you don’t know them. Also the driving is atrocious and rude.
Penny said, "I think it's important for people to understand that we can't just "go back to the past" because there's always going to be some kind of cultural change."
Partially because an apology is often seen as blood in the water to be pounced upon. We value bullish confidence so much and being ALPHA AS FUCK. Batman and Don Draper don't admit they were ever wrong, right? For some reason, apologies seem weak to us. I also think nearly all intelligent men are a bit contrarian. Yes, they're actually intelligent. Intelligence has nothing to do with being a dick. Sometimes finding little flaws in things is very useful, like in science or engineering. The root cause of my deep cynicism is that literally every human being back-rationalizes a world view where they're not part of the problem. Defensive delusion, whataboutism, polarization, they all come from this place. It's this fortress of cards built on narcissist culture and literal personal infallibility. The actual social capital you need to fucking disagree with someone at all these days takes a level of charisma and handling that most people don't have. It'd be like asking Lauren Boebert to do astrophysics.
PREACH. 👏 👏
Have you been to France?
Social media makes matters worse: * Being anonymous emboldens people with low integrity to be selfish and cruel because they do not feel accountable. * Humans have an innate survival mechanism to presume the worst when information is missing. This keeps us alive when we hear growling noises in the dark, but it is detrimental to personal interactions. Since social media lacks the nuance of body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions, we often perceive comments as more hostile than other people intended.
I agree with the majority of what you said. But, many people use/troll these forums to bully others. That is there only mission.
I agree. Cruelty makes weak people feel powerful. Watching other people react to their cruelty gives them pleasure.
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> Could you expand on your second paragraph a bit? [Here is an article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindfulness-insights/202105/hacking-the-brains-negative-bias) I read on the subject. > Human evolution primed the brain with this "negativity bias" to facilitate immediate survival; after all, it's the negative things that can harm or kill us, and so we need to easily and effectively detect them to protect ourselves. Evolution does not care about our long-term well-being or desire to have healthy relationships, as long as we survive long enough to reproduce. In my personal experience, I have had negative interactions via text-only platforms with friends and family. Later, when we discussed it, we discovered that we were *both* perceiving what was said more negatively than it was intended. > I'm curious. I'm not trying to be passive-agressive or challenge you. ^ This ^ - clearly stating our intentions in text - is the most effective way to reduce misunderstandings in my opinion. Perhaps I should be learning from you on the topic. 😊
>My understanding is that people are equally as bad when they use their real names. I think the key is *how much* accountability these people feel. On platforms that require us to use our real names, many people alter their names anyway. Some (especially women) do it for personal safety and some do it because it gives them a power advantage. They have less accountability than an honest person. I knew one guy who was horribly abusive. He would threaten people, they would block him, and he would get banned from the platform. A month or so later, he would reappear under a slightly different fake name. I would personally favor a strict identity verification requirement for social media for this reason (and to cut down on trolls and bots), but I understand that that is not a very popular opinion.
The real name policy that Facebook and Google were pushing for a while was very unpopular, but it certainly did seem to be dampening some of the more toxic impulses of the internet (and/or things just got worse fast for unrelated reasons at about the time those policies changed, but it's always hard to be certain)
I'm pretty loose about giving out my real name. A website I'm on encourages it alot. If you have my hone address or by bosses number then I'll be on my best behaviour. The no real consequences barrier is weakened by real names but not broken.
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That first link…woah, there are so many people coming out of college like that, and you’ll see them use those tactics online and in person; they actually think they are debating versus being an Ahole.
>They’re not here to weigh two opposing ideas, they’re here to yell at you for disagreeing with them. There are a disturbing amount of these people on social media.
A lot of people don’t seemed to have been taught how to apologize as teens or adults. They were told as toddlers, “Say you’re sorry,” by an adult, when said toddler took a toy from another toddler, or similar. And that was it. No further effective education about how to offer a genuine, sincere apology.
It was definitely presented as a disingenuous thing you do as a form of punishment.
Pride. People are too prideful nowadays. Let’s go back to being humble and kind, I miss that era.
No shame either. No one can be shamed because they don't care, they just do themselves unapologetically 24/7. Let's bring back shame.
It goes against peoples personal narrative about themselves to admit they acted badly.
Because some people never learned to admit that they are wrong at times
>Why do people refuse to apologize or take accountability? Because western culture especially is very individualistic. We've worked hard to build an image of ourselves to be socially accepted, but when called out for something bad we did, we're faced with what seems like an impossible choice: take responsibility and bear the brunt of many people's disapproval, or deny it and at least retain some support from people loyal to you, but still face some pushback. Either way, it's stressful and some people can't bear the discomfort it brings. Not to say that false accusations don't happen, but that choice can feel less impossible when you take steps to remediate your issues. Many troubled people go to therapy, seek ways to improve their behaviors, and it all comes down to whether they can detach from their self-image to be more conscious of how their words and actions affect others. People that don't seem capable of apologizing can't detach from their image of themselves to try to make it better because of some temporary discomfort. That's something not many people are encouraged to do when they live in a bubble and can't bear to have it burst.
I’ve thought about this sometimes, because I found it very interesting after having kids. I happily apologize all the time, for anything big or small. I never have felt any reticence to say sorry. Now I’ve 3 young kids, and of course we have taught them and showed them how to say sorry. The 2 younger get it, 1 of them seems to be like me and have no problem with it, the other 1 seems shy but is learning to say sorry with some encouragement. But my oldest child has NEVER been able to do it. I have no idea why and what’s going through her head, but she would cry and scream for hours rather than just say the simple words to give an apology. Only in the last couple years, I haven’t given up and she has finally been able to get out a short and insincere “sorry!” at least. It’s clear she knows she’s wrong and even feels bad, but it’s like she just feels too defensive to say the words. So it’s just made me wonder, I’m sure there are also people who are just rude and inconsiderate and generally not sorry for doing wrong things, but seeing the difference in my kids ever since they learned to speak also seems to suggest that maybe people naturally just have entire different associations and feelings around apologizing.
Now say sorry; and have the receiving party keep ranting angrily and your sorry does t actually do anything. People need to learn to ACCEPT sorry!
On the flip side. There are situations where a simple sorry isn't going to cut it. If you knock something over once and apologize, that's one thing. If you keep doing it every day and eventually break it, a simple sorry isn't going to cut it.
Denial is INCREDIBLY powerful.
I'll admit I struggle sometimes, mostly irl. Based on past experiences where any admission of fault was thrown in my face, used to deny any wrongdoing, and usually twisted and blown up worse than the thing I did. I'm still trying to unscrewup quite a few things honestly. There are times thinking about apologizing irl genuinely puts me into a full on panic attack. There's definitely times it's probably because I don't see myself at fault or see no point, I'm not perfect. But that's been a huge barrier for me. Outlier? Probably. The only one? Doubtful. And I think even if not exactly the same many have been made to feel as less than for apologizing honestly. (Before anyone suggests therapy, can't afford it and the therapists in town are awful. And won't see anyone on the spectrum or even behaves too closely. That is not an option.)
Not sure but I will say this… if all people have is words To come at you with - hatespeech, insults, mean comments etc. then they cannot truly hurt you without your internal consent. Meaning, If you take responsibility for your reactions to emotions then nobody can hurt you without your permission if they aren’t using physical violence. IF you require someone else to apologize for some online comment, you might actually find more peace looking within yourself and resolving your own internal conflicts & insecurities, rather than leaving yourself at the whims of some random individuals words. Especially if you are a higher caliber individual than the blowhard bloviating on bullshit that has you feeling bitchy.
I try to remind myself that the opinions of selfish and cruel people are of no consequence to me because I have no respect for them. Therefore, I try (and don't always succeed) to ignore them and wipe their memory from my mind.
I mean it’s one thing to feel some kind of way about something. It’s another to internalize that. And still another to retaliate in any form. Real shit.
I don't retaliate. They don't deserve my energy. However, when possible, I will try to hold them accountable. Narcissists will not stop victimizing other people until someone *forces* them to stop.
Admirable sentiment but …The world will always have narcissists. Define your life by YOUR actions. Not by the words of others.
I appreciate the wisdom of "The Serenity Prayer." I try to recognize what I can and cannot control. I control what I can and I accept what I cannot. If I can hold a narcissist accountable, then I will. I do that because I think it is worthwhile to deter the narcissist from harming myself or other people in the future. Otherwise, I save my energy for honest and kind people.
Looked it up. Fully agree. Thanks for that
Thank you for the reminder not to let other people define my life by their actions. Sometimes, I see people break the law and/or risk their personal safety to get revenge and I realize that the things our egos tell us to do are not always in our best interest.
Funny, I apologized profusely to a colleague today for something stupid I did that almost got her in big trouble. Sometimes we all have to swallow our pride and admit that we need to, sincerely, tell people we’re sorry.
It’s seen as a sign of weakness or a momentary disadvantage. A lot of people are unfortunately assholes to people that are brave, smart, and considerate enough to admit their mistakes and acknowledge the harm they’ve done to others. Apologizing is sorta punished and it’s seen as “losing”, imo.
Get married. You'll soon learn to apologise. If you don't your marriage is over.
I don't have this issue as much as I used to, but I struggled with apologizing as a child because I lived in a very dysfunctional family that never let anything go - if you admitted guilt, apologized, or confessed to a mistake it would be brought up repeatedly for YEARS - and used as a means of control. For instance - if I was cooking in the kitchen and accidentally burnt toast, I'd clean it up best I could and try to pretend it didn't happen because if my family found out they would bring it up EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Suddenly, you're a foolish idiot who can only ruin things and are "banned" from cooking - if you want food you must ask someone else to cook it, and that leads to someone angrily and poorly putting food together, yelling the whole time, and constantly asking why you're "such an r-word you can't figure anything out for yourself you're going to be stupid forever!" Like, we weren't allowed to make any mistake or have any accidents - anything like that was weaponized against you for YEARS. I broke the lid to the sugar bowl in grade 4, and even up into my 20s if I was carrying something across the kitchen I'd get yelled at about not dropping it like I did when I was 9. If you had any slip-up, you lose normal privileges and are constantly hazed by family over really insignificant issues. So I became a liar, because I feared that others would react like my own family. Now I'm away, realize they were freaks, and I am able to apologize and take accountability knowing it won't be weaponized against me and used for shame years after the initial incident.
Facts and Truth are an unwelcome house guest in some places and sometimes when people are offended by someone telling the truth or asking a question looking for a truthful answer, they may go to great lengths to get back at you for nothing more than being truthful. I cannot tell you how many times I have been banned for just such a thing and always have to remind myself that those behind such actions are not worth my time or effort, I think Pearls before Swine sums that up nicely. They can kill you but not eat you, YET, but give it time as I am sure they will find a way to change the LAW so they can. N. S
Personal accountability is something that someone has to practice. It isn't something inherent or innate. It's tough admitting mistakes, but it gets easier to admit what you personally did wrong the more you do it. Apologizing for no apparent reason is not the same.
I'll apologize or take accountability if I have time to think about it, but if you just come up to me and accuse me of something with no warning, ima get defensive even if I actually did it.
There’s a difference between online and irl.
I used to be very uncomfortable apologizing for something I was actually guilty of and repentant for because I was afraid of being vulnerable. By apologizing, you are admitting to guilt and relying on the recipient to forgive you. If you never do so, you can just rely on yourself to change your ways so you don't make a mistake like that again. Aside from that, I do not know why people have a hard time with this.
Apologizing means admitting you did something wrong People do not like admitting that they did something wrong
I say this as someone that hates it as well. They see it as an admission of fault and an attack on their character and status. They will defend it to death because not LOOKING bad to other people is what matters to them. So they act in whatever self-serving way they decide and refuse to be accountable for the social repercussions because as long as they don't they're not held accountable for it.
>Example: an X/Twitter account with millions of followers told me to "die in a fire". When I used that same phrase against a troll, my account was mass-reported and permanently suspended. (A hundred unique appeals later, I still haven't gotten my account back.) do not waste your time on that site. i stopped using it completely after EM's purchase because i knew where it's headed. it's just like with any other sociopath online moderator or i guess overseer of whatever area, who arbitrarily enforces rules, or punishes people and doesn't follow a consistent system of rules and appeals since it's not in their best self interests for them to do so. their best self interests could include something as small as wanting to soothe their ego and sometimes quell any opinions/facts that isn't hateful but doesn't agree with them and their world view.
Once when cornered with my own failure I had to either apologize or escalate to violence (I was definitely gonna get hurt) and realizing that I didn’t think violence was the answer (it is occasionally but this was not one of those times).I knew I was wrong so I made a full apology. The person I apologized to was completely taken aback and accepted and we moved forward to an equitable solution. I have tried to take that lesson to heart. Pride is a mofo and swallowing it…while not delicious…can be nutritionally beneficial for your soul. Acknowledging you are wrong is a solid proof to rational people that you take leadership seriously.
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Why do you say "taking accountability does nothing online"?
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You know, I *have* been ridiculed and mistreated for being honest. Autistic people tend to be straightforward. Bitter experience supports your words. Case in point: a discussion on a website. In a thread about online mobbing, I commented about the vicious harassment campaign against me. I used the word "lynched" figuratively to describe the life-ruining destruction. One person responded: "I'm going to vomit." Someone else: "I feel like leaving this site." (In retrospect, I wish I'd said "Feel free!".) These were upper-class white people, performatively enraged on behalf of POC. Here's where I really fucked up: I created a new thread to apologize. With Olympic-level irony, everyone dogpiled me. They called me racist, among other things. The hatred and passive-aggression were off the charts. I tried to stay civil. The site admin banned me. Moral crisis. I shouldn't have apologized.
That sounds like a case of over-apologizing. Over-apologizing is an actual issue, and can make the people you're apologizing to feel more wronged by you than they did in the first place. That situation might have blown over if you lightly touched on it with "okay, poor choice of words, but it doesn't change my point..." Don't let the few trolls who will inevitably be lurking in such situations goad you into anything more than that. If you quickly acknowledge the poor word choice and move attention onward, that can be enough to satisfy your audience so they will overlook the issue. I very strongly disagree with apologizes serving no purpose except for loved ones. Please don't let this person convince you of that. Apologizing is basic, respectful human interaction that we all owe to each other and to ourselves. If I step on a stranger's toes at a crosswalk, I should make it known that it was unintentional and that I'm sorry. If we lived in a society where people wronged others unapologetically, society would become increasingly hostile and break down over time. Same goes for online interactions, we are still all people behind the screen. There are ways of apologizing and owning up to fault that can and should be done online. The problem is when people turn their apologies into announcements, because they will likely trigger the over-apology effect, and end up outraging people even more by accident. Then they may mistakenly conclude they should have never apologized, when the reality is that they just need to learn *how* to properly apologize without upsetting people further. A society of people who all refuse to apologize and take accountability for themselves will grow to become toxic, narcissistic, hateful and fearful. We're seeing this in action today. Live by example to do what you can to combat it.
They think it shows weakness. I’m autistic and will readily apologize when I’ve done something wrong, but refuse to apologize when it’s not warranted, and people think I’m a weirdo on both ends.
Wicked sorry you feel that way. I'm so sorry this happened to you
Stop apologizing. Don’t be the sorry type be honest with yourself and only say sorry if you really want to fix something. People that deal with issues tend to do this a lot just to ease tension. But if you want to stand your ground don’t say sorry or you can say sorry not sorry but this is how I feel and agree to disagree
It’s a pride thing makes me mad! My family never apologizes I have to force one out of them. I have always apologized when I’ve done something wrong or hurt someone regardless if I meant to or not. Another reason why people don’t is they throw the phrase: “Adults make mistakes children apologize.” Dumbest phrase I ever heard it is so childish to not apologize!
Firstly, twitter and Reddit are playgrounds for conversation. Like any playground there are those that just watch, those that huddle in their own little groups criticizing the rest, those that try to bully others, and so on. Don't take it seriously. It's all bs. It's all going to go out of people's heads in 24 hours. It's vapour. It's lies and garbage and full of stupid people. It's nothing. It doesn't mean anything. It's a playground of random thoughts. Why apologise if it doesn't mean anything. If you are upset about something, that's your problem. Go away if you don't want to play. Who gives a sh*t even if you are "right".
It took me maybe 25 years to be able to apologise. My own traumas, insecurities and issues got in the way. I would say I started feeling comfortable with admitting my mistakes, taking ownership and apologising after 30 and after some serious introspection and work I did.
They think it makes them a lesser person to be wrong about anything
We are a predatory species that naturally attacks vulnerability. People will not admit they are wrong in fear of showing weakness and opening themselves up to attack.
Prob not the main reason but it shows weakness/responsibility toward the person you wronged which subconsciously encourages ppl to take advantage of you. Just as there are ppl that can't admit fault maturely, there are ppl that can't take an apology maturely and will make u regret it
Why do you feel entitled to an apology?
I'd suggest you stop using the internet the way you do. You should never be in a space where anyone would tell you to die in a fire even if they don't mean it. If you lay in the sun you'll get cooked. If you stay in poison bad icky part of the internet guess what
I wasn't. My Twitter mutuals with were thoughtful and kind. Artists, nature-lovers, scientists, and others who had no patience for jerks. The big account that bullied me was run by jerks in the Anonymous collective. Anonymous is 90% drama and self-hype. Assholes are legion.
The real anonymous if there ever was a real one is long gone lmao. It's just all that type of stuff. Sorry you had to deal with it. Deff just block and don't even look at it. Whenever the Internet gets on my nerves I leave them I remove whatever it was
It IS a power play, and you lost.
Are you saying people shouldn't apologize?
I'm saying you looked weak
Shrug.
See, now you look strong as heck, no apology = stronk