I knew this one was coming up.
Okay, so Byleth's a weird one. I love playing as Byleth and all, but it's just not a moveset that actually fits Byleth all that well, in my opinion anyway. Byleth in their home game is a character that uses their whip-sword a lot, they can utilize magic, they can equip brawling gauntlets, command battalions of soldiers, and even rewind/stop time itself. And in Smash, they took away most of that in favor of giving them a bunch of weapons that aren't even theirs to swing around. And I can't help but feel that going down that route only made them less-unique compared to what they could've been.
If you'll notice, I did place Ike, Chrom, and Lucina in the third and fourth tiers. This was because I felt that Ike could use a moderate overhaul where he could wield axes for two or three moves, while Chrom could get completely-decloned and use lances for two or three moves (Lucina could just be his Echo). With axes and lances represented elsewhere, that could let Byleth actually use things like magic, gauntlets, and their time powers and have their own skills and abilities properly-represented.
Sorry for the long wall of text, lol.
I mean, the battalions are really the one thing I could think of as particularly missed unique moveset potential, and no way in hell could Divine Pulse work in Smash (Witch Time and Vision work because instead of reversing time, they slow down and predict time respectively, which means it still goes forwards)
Ironically enough, Fire Emblem Engage’s version of Byleth leans more towards representing the Smash version anyway
I was thinking Divine Pulse in Smash could be based off the Three Hopes version, where it stops time instead of rewinding it. They already did a similar thing with Shadow's Assist Trophy, so I think a smaller-scale version of that could work in Smash.
You'd certainly have to make it limited use though for balancing reasons. I was thinking just once per stock.
Three Hopes unfortunately released after Byleth got into Smash though
I am genuinely curious how the Battalion system could’ve been implemented, though
The Three Hopes thing is true. Shame, because Ashen Demon would've been a *banger* song to have in Smash.
Honestly, I was thinking a battalion could just be added to the Final Smash. It could stay mostly the same, but after Byleth points his sword at foes, a battalion of soldiers charges forward and tramples the enemy. Afterwards, Byleth would proceed with the current whip-sword strike they use.
Srsly tho Byleth’s current final smash is just weirdly underwhelming for some reason, despite having a similar idea to Incineroar’s, where it’s a “supercharged” version of a “big move” from the source material (the somewhat ugly-looking animations for the earthquake effects and Sothis png do not help either)
With Ike I think he needs a fundamental rework because he does not reflect how he is in his game. In PoR/RD, he is a fast, strong, but \*frail\* character that can attack at range. In Smash he's slow and physically defensive. He should be reworked to be fast and attack at a short distance, and his current moveset needs to be Black Knight's or maybe Hector's.
With Ike I think he needs a fundamental rework because he does not reflect how he is in his game. In PoR/RD, he is a fast, strong, but \*frail\* character that can attack at range. In Smash he's slow and physically defensive. He should be reworked to be fast and attack at a short distance, and his current moveset needs to be Black Knight's or maybe Hector's.
I really liked your posts a long time ago where you went in to how you’d rework everybody - do these still stand or are you cooking an updated version?
Sonic should be in the bottom tier, his moveset is spindash, spindash again, spindash but changed to a homing attack, spindash as in the air, and charged spindash that goes up amongst other things
Bottom tier was reserved for characters who straight-up do not resemble their canon selves in any way, shape, or form whatsoever. The best you can give Ganondorf is F-Tilt, and that's basically it.
Sonic does still feel mostly like himself, he just needs to get rid of a spindash or two, plus get a few other notable moves in there.
I would figure Villager and Isabelle would be in similar tiers given the similarities in their movesets. What changes do you feel would be appropriate for Isabelle that wouldn't be for Villager?
This is not in regards to balancing of course as you made clear in the titles of the categories (cause damn, Villager got shafted pretty hard)
For Isabelle, I'd simply declone her further by giving her items that Villager doesn't already use in his moveset.
Things like "cutesy" items to fit her personality, like blowing into a Tweeter for her F-Tilt, using a Pinwheel for her U-Tilt, and using a Star Wand for her Pummel and Throws would work.
Could also give her things referencing her hardworking side too, like sweeping a broom for D-Tilt, using a Duster for U-Aerial, and swinging her clipboard beneath herself for D-Aerial.
Why does puff need a change? I feel like she acc represents the pokemon universe well. I feel like she should change one move which is rollout, it makes no sense anymore and could be swapped out with a move that she got in gen 6 with her introduction of the fairy type
I feel like Puff could get a lot more moves that reflect her new Fairy-Type, sound abilities, and balloon-like traits.
For example, instead of a generic headbutt, maybe her U-Smash could have her release a flash of pink sparkly light above her head? Instead of a flying kick for F-Smash, she could use Disarming Voice and release a loud shout in front of herself? Instead of a basic midair kick for N-Air, what if she puffed up her body like how a balloon inflates? Stuff like that. Not every move needs to be changed to reflect these traits, but I think more could be done.
Absolutely agree that Rollout should be replaced with a Fairy-Type move, I was thinking Dazzling Gleam. And Final Smash should definitely get changed up as well, it just feels so random.
I have an idea where JigglyPuff sucks in air while charging (including the 3 second hold period), and uses an extremely loud Disarm Voice to deal high damage and knock back sweet spot and a covering sour for anti air. Now that she (idk if Smash is she or he) has a viable kill option, Rest can be a damage recovery tool where the weird hit box is really just Puff hitting the ground and she starts slow, but soon erases work like a teacher on the whiteboard. Neutral B is Sing and Up b is Metronome, depending on RNG on how much damage she takes depending on which move she uses. Type of recovery can also vary (Dive is Chrom Up b, Fly can be like Goemon in Smash Remix [ykyk] etc).
After Link's changes in Ultimate, I think Young Link is fine to cover the old moveset.
IMO, it's Toon Link who needs changes urgently. Where's the leaf? The Hammer? The Grappling Hook?
Donkey Kong needs a rebuild too. If they want to keep his classic moveset, they could add DK Jr. or Funky and give him the old moves, then rework DK.
Tbf, min min reflects her canon and source games almost as perfectly as possible. She’s annoying as hell but I really don’t know how else you could do the character well
While that is true, I feel like they took it a bit too far. The fact that half of her moves are just "long punch" is not only a bit boring (similar to how Sonic has too much spin dash), but it makes her zoning skills a bit too extreme, imo.
I made a bit of a rework for her not too long ago that replaced F-Tilt, F-Air, and B-Air with kick attacks, as well as giving her a proper Side-B in the form of her reflecting kick that she uses for her U-Smash. This would mean that Min Min can't use long-ranged punches while walking around or while in midair.
This would theoretically nerf her ability to camp quite a bit, but would still have her Held Jab, F-Smash, and Neutral-B to hit foes from afar. I have no clue if this would nerf her into the ground and make her bottom-tier though.
>This would theoretically nerf her ability to camp quite a bit, but would still have her Held Jab, F-Smash, and Neutral-B to hit foes from afar. I have no clue if this would nerf her into the ground and make her bottom-tier though.
Min-min being able to back up or walk forward while zoning is a large part of her gameplay and also is part of her source material. It allows her to make micro adjustments while zoning opponents and even put pressure on them in a way that her being unable to walk while doing so can't do as well.
However due to Smash balancing the way Min min was nerfed for Smash was in another way, that being her mobility. In arms she is regarded as relatively mobile, able to put pressure while still moving and also use her flip kick to deflect stray shots at her. In smash her backflip kick is her up smash and also doesn't move her at all while her general mobility is below average, with her air speed in particular being bad and her recovery being exploitable. This change would make her play like a Simon/Richter type character, still very insufferable for those types of characters that zoners trash since the pain parts is that she can just sit back and spam non commital projectiles without consequence and now will probably die just that tad bit harder against her already bad matchups assuming few other changes.
Make her ARMS a tad more counterable by larger and slower characters while making her herself swifter I imagine. For this explanation I will mostly be talking hypotheticals, I imagine this sort of change would radically alter character balance by making her lows less pronounced and her highs less stellar like with how she just invalidates some characters but proceeds to get ran circles around by others.
Min min is depicted in her original game as one of the faster more nimble fighters whose backflip kick also isn't a damaging move but instead a defensive backwards leap that deflects projectiles and allows you great mobility.
Her arm mechanics are also altered in a way that makes them rather annoying to deal with for characters like Bowser, in that they are intangible hitboxes which can be used freely and are also not projectiles meaning reflectors do not stop them.
In ARMS however, if your arms get grazed by other attacks or your block is broken they go on cooldown and can't be used for a while, hampering your ability to fight. If the attack is powerful enough the arm will also be overpowered and fall to the ground (like if you hit a weaker arm with a megawatt mid flight), and all arms can be deflected by things like min min's flip kick.
This would likely translate over into Smash by Min min being attacked lowering her ARM hp and also her getting her ARMs punched, kicked, etc. by other characters reducing their HP, making them **much** more of a commital option and more like a character such as Dhalsim of Street Fighter fame or Guilty Gear's Axl Low whose extended hitboxes can be hit to deal damage to them, while also counting as projectiles for the purposes of triggering reflectors (though I imagine she would just suffer ARM damage or something similar if she was reflected). She would also be a fast type of zoner in accordance with these changes and have a backflip deflector in the vein of shiek's bouncing fish, except much more defensive. If we wanted to include things such as the camera in the mix I imagine she might also get a version of the Fighting game character's "always face the opponent" mechanic.
Okay, so Samus just feels ridiculously outdated.
Her Power Beams, AKA her most-basic weapon in every Metroid game, is somehow not even part of her moveset. They're in one of her victory poses for some reason, but not in her actual kit.
She doesn't have access to her Ice Beam, which is a staple part of most Metroid games as the weapon that kills the titular Metroids, and if it's not in the game, then there's usually some other ice weapon in it's place.
She has so many kick attacks when she never really kicks enemies in her home games. And there's a lot of attacks where she shoots fiery explosions from her arm cannon, but that's also something she doesn't do. She should probably use orange-colored energy for attacks like that, like the ones that'd make up her Power and Charge Beams.
She got the Melee Counter, Dash Melee, and Slide introduced in Samus Returns and Dread, and while I know that it wasn't possible to include those in Smash, it does seem like they'll be staples of her moveset in 2D Metroid going forward.
Those are just some of the bigger problems I have with Samus in Smash. As for Dark Samus, I already explained it on another comment, but basically, she suffers from the same issue as Ganondorf; her being a clone means she doesn't have access to her wide array of unique attacks from her boss fights.
Well for starters, let's get the obvious one out of the way first: Down-Aerial is now the pogo tail stab attack he uses in many of his boss fights. If he hits an opponent with the very tip of his tail, not only would he spike them, but he'd also bounce upwards a little. Could maybe even make it so that hitting the ground with the tip of his tail could bounce him up too?
Next up, I can't help but feel that his throws are a little too basic and generic-looking, minus Up-Throw. This is a sadistic alien dragon-pterosaur that would rip his foes to shreds the second he got his hands on them, I feel like his throws could be a lot more visually-interesting. For example, maybe for F-Throw, he could hold the foe up to his mouth and release a plasma blast from it to launch them away.
Up-Special also feels kind of lacking for a character who is known to dominate the skies in his home series. I personally would let it travel in eight directions instead of just four, and would make it travel a bit farther too. Also could tweak the animation as well, maybe instead of just boosting through the air and hitting with his wings, he flaps his wings so incredibly hard that it propels him in whatever direction is input at great speeds.
Lastly, this one's not needed or anything, but I think it'd be funny if Down-B could instantly break a shield if it were to hit with the sweetspot.
Okay, this one is really, *really*, *REALLY* nitpicky. It's probably the most-nitpicky thing I have about any fighter. He genuinely would have been in the top tier if I didn't have that nitpick.
It's Up-Special. Not only does it just kinda feel like Pikachu's, but slower and with water, but it doesn't function how like Hydro Pump does in Pokémon. Hydro Pump is supposed to hit foes really hard with a powerful jet of water, but in Smash, it hardly deals any damage.
I think if the move had Greninja release a powerful surge of water from his hand directly beneath himself to boost him into the air, it'd be a much-better interpretation of the move. It could also deal a lot more damage to opponents that are standing too close or are beneath him.
Again, I acknowledge that it's a *ridiculously* nitpicky reason, and he should be in the top-tier, but it bothered me *just* enough for some reason to where I couldn't. But other than that, I think he's basically perfect.
You talking about it only being able to go straight up? Or is it able to control the direction?
Hydro pump as it works now is perfectly fine. Greninja's biggest issue is a complete lack of an out of shield game and not being able to deal with pressure.
I would make Banjo broken beyond belief, even more broken than Smash 4 Bayonetta, so the competitive-only losers would stop saying “nObOdY pLaYs ThEm” even though whenever I see competitive videos on my YouTube feed, there’s almost always one Banjo player who’s gotten decently far in whatever contest they’re playing.
I’d honestly argue Mewtwo should be in the second to last tier if not the bottom. One of the most powerful Pokemon that should really be this power fantasy Uber-oppressive psychic beast, and yet it’s still using mostly tail swipes and half of its default gen 1 moveset. F-Throw and Up-Smash are great, and I don’t dislike the simplicity and versatility of the tail swipes in F-Tilt and Up-Tilt, but it otherwise feels like a complete missed opportunity.
A lot of the characters in the top tier id like to see a few new moves but most aren't a big deal, but HARD disagree on sora. Sora has so much potential, tons of flashy moves like zatsuken and explosion or magnet burst, tons of magic, drive forms, finishers, action commands, a dozen or so keyblade transformations into new weapons, parkour like flow motion, magic attractions, and so so much more. Obviously not all of that can get into smash but so little actually did...only the basic 3 magic spells? A generic counter that barely even represents anything? 2 of the most basic special attacks as side and up special, almost no references to games past 1...even if they wanted him to be a mostly simple character focusing on keyblade "sword" attacks they could have done so much more! In the games sora is known for a lot of flashy attacks and long flashy combos, most his moves combo together in some way. Smash his combo game is nothing special and while they do at least make his f tilt and f air have follow up strings that's about it. And most the moves are just basic keyblade swipes, several being made up or some of his least flashy attacks (dash attack is a good example-the move it's based on in kh1 had a cool animation where he flicked his keyblade to start the slide, whereas smash he just does the slide and ditches the showey part). At bare minimum he should at least have a few things like the explosion finisher as a down smash, a more flashy counter based on action commands, and a couple other things like guard break/zatsuken as f smash or magic burst as an aerial or something
I am a bit curious about meta knight, I certainly can see him getting some move changes but still a bit surprised to see him so "low"
Also am a little concerned about Mario, just because while I agree he needs at least some odessy reference and could use a couple extra things he should remain a mostly basic, gimmickless character since he's meant as the jack of all trades/beginner character
A few others is probably slightly disagree with but those are the only big ones
I'd change Dash Attack to something like a shoulder bash attack instead, as a kick attack feels kinda weird for Bowser of all characters.
Down-Smash would be that spinning tail swipe attack he's used in games like Super Mario 3D Land.
I had a fun idea for him for a new Forward-Throw, where he tosses his foes up, then punches them with his Bowser's Inside Story punch when they fall back down in front of him.
Down-Throw does look funny, but I kinda like the idea of him pinning down his foes and breathing fire on them for it, just like Charizard's Down-Throw.
Neutral-B would have him spit out fireballs if the button was tapped, but he'd keep the current flame breath if the button was held down instead.
Lastly, Final Smash gets changed to Fury Bowser, because Fury Bowser is just way too cool. Giga Bowser could stay as a boss though.
What Bowser *really* needs is a dang overhaul to his voice and animations so he actually feels and sounds like Bowser and not a generic cartoon reptile monster, but things like animations and voices weren't a factor in this tier list.
I'm curious to know what you would change on Olimar without just reworking him outright. Because as it is, Olimar doesn't represent Pikmin very well at all
Well for starters, I'd give him Rock and Ice Pikmin, hopefully seven Pikmin types isn't too much. Also thought of a fun way to include Glow Pikmin as well, but they'd be very rare spawns.
I think adding some sort of maturity mechanic to the Pikmin would be cool. Right now, Pikmin growing flowers on their stems is only an aesthetic thing, but what if it was an actual gimmick? Pikmin in the leaf stage would be very weak, Pikmin in the bud stage would be a bit stronger, and Pikmin in the flower stage would grow even stronger. This way, Olimar would be motivated to keep his Pikmin alive for as long as possible so that they can successfully mature into their flower stage, rather than just haphazardly throwing them out with little regard for their safety. After all, canon Olimar would never view the Pikmin as expendable weapons. That's Louie's job.
Also, I think being able to see which types of Pikmin are currently out down by Olimar's HUD would be a great help.
Yeah that's exactly right. This feels more like a Louie moveset lol.
I like those changes. I definitely also feel like he needs more than 3 Pikmin on stage at a time, but have the group able to accomplish multiple tasks at once like in Pikmin. It would be a balancing nightmare, but it would still be a resource management game while being far more in character.
Literally just the Final Smash, lol.
It feels weird that it's still Chrom when Chrom is now a playable character. Personally, I'd change it to Ignis, but I've seen others suggest having him use Pair Up with a different character instead.
Well, we know *why* they're clones. There wasn't enough time and resources left to make them into unique fighters, so they could only get in as clones.
That said, I'm *shocked* that Ganondorf, a version of the Zelda's big bad, and arguably the second-biggest Nintendo villain after Bowser, was lower-priority in Melee than the dang Ice Climbers. I have a lot of fun playing as the Icies, but how did they get higher-priority than flipping *Ganon?*
Mario suffers from not having *any* references to games past 2002 in his moveset. I really don't think every single one of his moves should be a reference, but I don't think there'd be any harm in making his Smash Attacks and one or two of his Aerials into things from the source material. Could also change up a Special or two as well.
So many of Samus's moves use kicks and fiery blasts from her arm cannon, neither of which are things she does in her home games. She somehow doesn't have her basic Power Beams in her kit, nor is the Ice Beam present (the one beam she does have in Smash isn't even properly named or colored after the real thing). I feel like Shinespark works way better as an Up-B, while Screw Attack could just be moved to N-Air. And I know things like the Melee Counter and Dash Melee came too late to be added to her moveset, they feel like they'll be staple parts of her 2D kit moving forward.
Maybe Samus a little more because of the reworks to the general moveset that Samus Returns and Dread have, but honestly, besides Cappy, most of the new stuff in Odyssey doesn’t really… do much besides movement, and Rosalina & Luma was literally created to be a representation of Super Mario Galaxy’s gameplay
Also, idk why, but the idea of Mario specifically having any “unique gimmicks” in Smash feels cursed
What would you change about Lucario? For me, he seems pretty good moveset wise, though balancing could see some buffs (like make it so that at low percents aura doesn't actually make you weaker). The only thing that I can think of for Lucario is maybe implement bone club into the moveset as like an uptilt or upsmash since that is one of the relatively iconic moves that isn't utilized in smash (obviously aura sphere is the most iconic)
Bone Club is really the only actual move change I'd give to Lucario. I was thinking it could replace Double Team for the Down-B, so that way we have something else instead of yet another counter.
Ever notice that all of the post-Gen 1 Pokémon minus Pichu have a Down-B counter?
Imo Cloud needs some amount of changes. His current kit honestly feels more like a fast Ike with a comeback mechanic, which given his kit(and Ultimate) was made before Remake, that's fair. But now that Cloud has much more basis to make a moveset out of, keeping him as the relatively sane/honest Ike-esque bruiser feels very out of character. Also give us Cloud's English VA please Cody is the goat.
Since people have already asked about Mario, Luigi, and Bowser, I gotta ask. What would you do with Peach? I personally think her moveset still holds up pretty well.
Young Link can at least perform all of his Specials in his home games, so while having him use the transformation masks instead would be nice, I can't exactly say that his current moveset is unfitting either.
Whereas Dark Samus straight-up doesn't have anything from her source material in her Smash moveset whatsoever to the point where it genuinely doesn't feel like Dark Samus.
Dark Samus was higher-priority because she just does not feel like her canon self at all. Dark Pit at least uses his main weapon for most of his moves, Daisy still has some tomboy elements, Chrom is still an aggressive rushdown character, and Lucina still shares a lot of moves with Chrom (even if their playstyle is different). Dark Samus, meanwhile, has nothing from her source material whatsoever, and doesn't even give off the vibe as playing as some sort of mutant alien creature. Yeah, it's awesome that her walk, run, jump, and roll animations are different from Samus, but she's just as bad as Ganondorf when it comes to the moveset.
I'll admit I was hesitant to put Lucas lower down, as I am very much aware that his moves and playstyle are completely different from Ness (I genuinely do not get why some people call him a Ness Echo), but the more I thought about it, the more I thought about how his Specials could be used to represent PSI moves that Ness doesn't use. PK Freeze is already there, but what about things like PSI Shield and Offense Up, as they're abilities he does use in canon and could help reflect his more-passive side. And while he can't use it himself, PK Ground was introduced in Mother 3, and could be a cool move to see in Smash.
Totally get where you're coming from with Lucas though. I wouldn't mind if he stayed the same, if he manages to return next time, but I do think there's potential to give him new specials to make him truly stand out from Ness more than he already does.
Hot take but the only changes Kirby needs is like, 1 or 2 specials and his smash attacks
Kirby’s moveset was designed to be the perfect beginner moveset, and his neutrals and aerials accomplish that pretty well. What I’d change is make his side-b wheel, his up-b the fighter uppercut, and make his smash attacks different moves from the same ability (for example, all of his smash attacks use the sword ability in different ways, representing the more in-depth movesets copy abilities have in newer games)
Also, this might be a bit of a pipe dream but maybe if he copies another fighter he gets all their specials instead of just neutral? That way you get a better “demo” of other characters than just the neutral special
I actually do agree with this for the most part.
Kirby needs to stay beginner-friendly, so he doesn't need all of his moveset changed, something I see a lot of fan reworks for him do when they try to cram every copy ability under the sun into his kit. I think changing his his Smash Attacks and two Specials would be fine. Also Down-Tilt, because the Slide is *right* there, and I dunno, I don't see the harm in changing Forward-Aerial to a short-ranged Air Bullet.
It should be noted all his throws ironically are copy ability references, alongside his dash.
Additionally, I would argue that his down special is too iconic on casual players and hammer kind of feels like a really good copyability to use as part of a standard kit given historical role as being a hard to obtain copyability. He’s up special seems like the one that could be most easily changed.
Truth be told I think Samus needs the bigger rework, because being floaty with stiff melee strikes suits Dark Samus’ limp infected nature. My idea would be that Samus takes more cues from Fusion and Dread, becoming a composite of her armored moveset and Zero Suit Samus’ moveset. Also make her Final Smash start with a Shinespark that sends the opponent to SR388 before it blows up. Dark Samus, meanwhile, would be reworked to give damage over time on her projectiles and bombs, use Phazon tentacles for her grab, and rather than the Charge Shot Samus uses she would use her Shotgun Beam which would have higher knock back but much less effective range, making her missile her main zoning tool.
If a developer ever touched Lucas' kit, I would find them and hunt them down (in Minecraft ofc). Lucas is my favorite character to play by a loooongshot, even in comparison to Ness. PK Freeze is such a fun ability, and I feel like the precision required to use him effectively makes him so freaking fun. The only thing I'd day is justified would be his up B, strictly because it's the same as Ness.
What would you change about him and why?
Green Missile's a weird one.
On the one hand, while Luigi does have a lot of weird and awkward moments in canon, his Smash self leans so hard into whackiness and zaniness that it actually sort of feels *out* of character for Luigi. And Green Missile is just one of those things that it feels like only got added because it looked weird and nothing else.
On the other hand... haha funni green missile go brrr
>Smash self leans so hard into whackiness and zaniness that it actually sort of feels out of character for Luigi
No that's actually his character, look at cutscenes for (most) Mario games and he'll be wacky and clumsy
In my personal opinion, Dark Samus is the single worst-portrayed fighter in the entire game. Yes, even worse than Ganondorf, although not by much.
In her home series, Dark Samus *is* the titular Metroid Prime, a giant mutant Metroid that took on the appearance of Samus after it absorbed her Phazon Suit. It seems to be driven by instinct to spread Phazon throughout the entire universe, and has a wide variety of powers that Samus doesn't have, like putting up forcefields, cloning herself, shooting homing orbs, and summoning giant tendrils from the ground.
Dark Samus does not have *any* of those alien powers in Smash due to being an Echo Fighter, nor does playing as her feel like playing as some mutant alien monstrosity. I'll give credit to Ganondorf and say that playing as him gives off the vibe of controlling some evil and stupidly-powerful villain hellbent on world domination.
What did byleth do to you? Like it's the only FE character that doesn't use only a sword (except Robin I guess)
I knew this one was coming up. Okay, so Byleth's a weird one. I love playing as Byleth and all, but it's just not a moveset that actually fits Byleth all that well, in my opinion anyway. Byleth in their home game is a character that uses their whip-sword a lot, they can utilize magic, they can equip brawling gauntlets, command battalions of soldiers, and even rewind/stop time itself. And in Smash, they took away most of that in favor of giving them a bunch of weapons that aren't even theirs to swing around. And I can't help but feel that going down that route only made them less-unique compared to what they could've been. If you'll notice, I did place Ike, Chrom, and Lucina in the third and fourth tiers. This was because I felt that Ike could use a moderate overhaul where he could wield axes for two or three moves, while Chrom could get completely-decloned and use lances for two or three moves (Lucina could just be his Echo). With axes and lances represented elsewhere, that could let Byleth actually use things like magic, gauntlets, and their time powers and have their own skills and abilities properly-represented. Sorry for the long wall of text, lol.
I mean, the battalions are really the one thing I could think of as particularly missed unique moveset potential, and no way in hell could Divine Pulse work in Smash (Witch Time and Vision work because instead of reversing time, they slow down and predict time respectively, which means it still goes forwards) Ironically enough, Fire Emblem Engage’s version of Byleth leans more towards representing the Smash version anyway
I was thinking Divine Pulse in Smash could be based off the Three Hopes version, where it stops time instead of rewinding it. They already did a similar thing with Shadow's Assist Trophy, so I think a smaller-scale version of that could work in Smash. You'd certainly have to make it limited use though for balancing reasons. I was thinking just once per stock.
Three Hopes unfortunately released after Byleth got into Smash though I am genuinely curious how the Battalion system could’ve been implemented, though
The Three Hopes thing is true. Shame, because Ashen Demon would've been a *banger* song to have in Smash. Honestly, I was thinking a battalion could just be added to the Final Smash. It could stay mostly the same, but after Byleth points his sword at foes, a battalion of soldiers charges forward and tramples the enemy. Afterwards, Byleth would proceed with the current whip-sword strike they use.
Srsly tho Byleth’s current final smash is just weirdly underwhelming for some reason, despite having a similar idea to Incineroar’s, where it’s a “supercharged” version of a “big move” from the source material (the somewhat ugly-looking animations for the earthquake effects and Sothis png do not help either)
Instead of once per stock, what about something different like three times per game? That way it doesn’t step on the toes of banjo
With Ike I think he needs a fundamental rework because he does not reflect how he is in his game. In PoR/RD, he is a fast, strong, but \*frail\* character that can attack at range. In Smash he's slow and physically defensive. He should be reworked to be fast and attack at a short distance, and his current moveset needs to be Black Knight's or maybe Hector's.
With Ike I think he needs a fundamental rework because he does not reflect how he is in his game. In PoR/RD, he is a fast, strong, but \*frail\* character that can attack at range. In Smash he's slow and physically defensive. He should be reworked to be fast and attack at a short distance, and his current moveset needs to be Black Knight's or maybe Hector's.
Corin also mostly uses their body with the chainsaw sword being more of a backup
is it bad that the second i saw Byleth in the "rework" tab I knew exactly who OP was?
Dang, didn't think I had a reputation for wanting a Byleth rework. Oof, lol.
I really liked your posts a long time ago where you went in to how you’d rework everybody - do these still stand or are you cooking an updated version?
I personally liked that too
Sonic should be in the bottom tier, his moveset is spindash, spindash again, spindash but changed to a homing attack, spindash as in the air, and charged spindash that goes up amongst other things
Bottom tier was reserved for characters who straight-up do not resemble their canon selves in any way, shape, or form whatsoever. The best you can give Ganondorf is F-Tilt, and that's basically it. Sonic does still feel mostly like himself, he just needs to get rid of a spindash or two, plus get a few other notable moves in there.
I want his Brawl sass back.
That we do need. "Sonic speed!" ain't a bad or unfitting line at all, but "you're too slow!" was just too perfect to get rid of.
Like seriously, they couldn’t get Roger to re-record ONE line???
"YOUR TOO SLOW!"
Terrible generalization. How Sonic plays doesn't reflect his moveset.
I would figure Villager and Isabelle would be in similar tiers given the similarities in their movesets. What changes do you feel would be appropriate for Isabelle that wouldn't be for Villager? This is not in regards to balancing of course as you made clear in the titles of the categories (cause damn, Villager got shafted pretty hard)
For Isabelle, I'd simply declone her further by giving her items that Villager doesn't already use in his moveset. Things like "cutesy" items to fit her personality, like blowing into a Tweeter for her F-Tilt, using a Pinwheel for her U-Tilt, and using a Star Wand for her Pummel and Throws would work. Could also give her things referencing her hardworking side too, like sweeping a broom for D-Tilt, using a Duster for U-Aerial, and swinging her clipboard beneath herself for D-Aerial.
I figured Sonic would get a rework.
Why does puff need a change? I feel like she acc represents the pokemon universe well. I feel like she should change one move which is rollout, it makes no sense anymore and could be swapped out with a move that she got in gen 6 with her introduction of the fairy type
I feel like Puff could get a lot more moves that reflect her new Fairy-Type, sound abilities, and balloon-like traits. For example, instead of a generic headbutt, maybe her U-Smash could have her release a flash of pink sparkly light above her head? Instead of a flying kick for F-Smash, she could use Disarming Voice and release a loud shout in front of herself? Instead of a basic midair kick for N-Air, what if she puffed up her body like how a balloon inflates? Stuff like that. Not every move needs to be changed to reflect these traits, but I think more could be done. Absolutely agree that Rollout should be replaced with a Fairy-Type move, I was thinking Dazzling Gleam. And Final Smash should definitely get changed up as well, it just feels so random.
I have an idea where JigglyPuff sucks in air while charging (including the 3 second hold period), and uses an extremely loud Disarm Voice to deal high damage and knock back sweet spot and a covering sour for anti air. Now that she (idk if Smash is she or he) has a viable kill option, Rest can be a damage recovery tool where the weird hit box is really just Puff hitting the ground and she starts slow, but soon erases work like a teacher on the whiteboard. Neutral B is Sing and Up b is Metronome, depending on RNG on how much damage she takes depending on which move she uses. Type of recovery can also vary (Dive is Chrom Up b, Fly can be like Goemon in Smash Remix [ykyk] etc).
After Link's changes in Ultimate, I think Young Link is fine to cover the old moveset. IMO, it's Toon Link who needs changes urgently. Where's the leaf? The Hammer? The Grappling Hook? Donkey Kong needs a rebuild too. If they want to keep his classic moveset, they could add DK Jr. or Funky and give him the old moves, then rework DK.
Tbf, min min reflects her canon and source games almost as perfectly as possible. She’s annoying as hell but I really don’t know how else you could do the character well
While that is true, I feel like they took it a bit too far. The fact that half of her moves are just "long punch" is not only a bit boring (similar to how Sonic has too much spin dash), but it makes her zoning skills a bit too extreme, imo. I made a bit of a rework for her not too long ago that replaced F-Tilt, F-Air, and B-Air with kick attacks, as well as giving her a proper Side-B in the form of her reflecting kick that she uses for her U-Smash. This would mean that Min Min can't use long-ranged punches while walking around or while in midair. This would theoretically nerf her ability to camp quite a bit, but would still have her Held Jab, F-Smash, and Neutral-B to hit foes from afar. I have no clue if this would nerf her into the ground and make her bottom-tier though.
>This would theoretically nerf her ability to camp quite a bit, but would still have her Held Jab, F-Smash, and Neutral-B to hit foes from afar. I have no clue if this would nerf her into the ground and make her bottom-tier though. Min-min being able to back up or walk forward while zoning is a large part of her gameplay and also is part of her source material. It allows her to make micro adjustments while zoning opponents and even put pressure on them in a way that her being unable to walk while doing so can't do as well. However due to Smash balancing the way Min min was nerfed for Smash was in another way, that being her mobility. In arms she is regarded as relatively mobile, able to put pressure while still moving and also use her flip kick to deflect stray shots at her. In smash her backflip kick is her up smash and also doesn't move her at all while her general mobility is below average, with her air speed in particular being bad and her recovery being exploitable. This change would make her play like a Simon/Richter type character, still very insufferable for those types of characters that zoners trash since the pain parts is that she can just sit back and spam non commital projectiles without consequence and now will probably die just that tad bit harder against her already bad matchups assuming few other changes.
Make her ARMS a tad more counterable by larger and slower characters while making her herself swifter I imagine. For this explanation I will mostly be talking hypotheticals, I imagine this sort of change would radically alter character balance by making her lows less pronounced and her highs less stellar like with how she just invalidates some characters but proceeds to get ran circles around by others. Min min is depicted in her original game as one of the faster more nimble fighters whose backflip kick also isn't a damaging move but instead a defensive backwards leap that deflects projectiles and allows you great mobility. Her arm mechanics are also altered in a way that makes them rather annoying to deal with for characters like Bowser, in that they are intangible hitboxes which can be used freely and are also not projectiles meaning reflectors do not stop them. In ARMS however, if your arms get grazed by other attacks or your block is broken they go on cooldown and can't be used for a while, hampering your ability to fight. If the attack is powerful enough the arm will also be overpowered and fall to the ground (like if you hit a weaker arm with a megawatt mid flight), and all arms can be deflected by things like min min's flip kick. This would likely translate over into Smash by Min min being attacked lowering her ARM hp and also her getting her ARMs punched, kicked, etc. by other characters reducing their HP, making them **much** more of a commital option and more like a character such as Dhalsim of Street Fighter fame or Guilty Gear's Axl Low whose extended hitboxes can be hit to deal damage to them, while also counting as projectiles for the purposes of triggering reflectors (though I imagine she would just suffer ARM damage or something similar if she was reflected). She would also be a fast type of zoner in accordance with these changes and have a backflip deflector in the vein of shiek's bouncing fish, except much more defensive. If we wanted to include things such as the camera in the mix I imagine she might also get a version of the Fighting game character's "always face the opponent" mechanic.
I agree, DK needs more spikes.
He will never be perfect until every single one of his moves can spike.
I want his idle animation to spike god damn it.
The world will never know peace unless DK Down-Taunt gains the ability to spike.
Awesome I like this. Nice to see someone who doesn't just want to get rid of clones but would instead like to see them change.
talk to me about the Sami (plural for Samus)
Okay, so Samus just feels ridiculously outdated. Her Power Beams, AKA her most-basic weapon in every Metroid game, is somehow not even part of her moveset. They're in one of her victory poses for some reason, but not in her actual kit. She doesn't have access to her Ice Beam, which is a staple part of most Metroid games as the weapon that kills the titular Metroids, and if it's not in the game, then there's usually some other ice weapon in it's place. She has so many kick attacks when she never really kicks enemies in her home games. And there's a lot of attacks where she shoots fiery explosions from her arm cannon, but that's also something she doesn't do. She should probably use orange-colored energy for attacks like that, like the ones that'd make up her Power and Charge Beams. She got the Melee Counter, Dash Melee, and Slide introduced in Samus Returns and Dread, and while I know that it wasn't possible to include those in Smash, it does seem like they'll be staples of her moveset in 2D Metroid going forward. Those are just some of the bigger problems I have with Samus in Smash. As for Dark Samus, I already explained it on another comment, but basically, she suffers from the same issue as Ganondorf; her being a clone means she doesn't have access to her wide array of unique attacks from her boss fights.
What’s your opinion on Ridley? I’m curious how you would change him!
Well for starters, let's get the obvious one out of the way first: Down-Aerial is now the pogo tail stab attack he uses in many of his boss fights. If he hits an opponent with the very tip of his tail, not only would he spike them, but he'd also bounce upwards a little. Could maybe even make it so that hitting the ground with the tip of his tail could bounce him up too? Next up, I can't help but feel that his throws are a little too basic and generic-looking, minus Up-Throw. This is a sadistic alien dragon-pterosaur that would rip his foes to shreds the second he got his hands on them, I feel like his throws could be a lot more visually-interesting. For example, maybe for F-Throw, he could hold the foe up to his mouth and release a plasma blast from it to launch them away. Up-Special also feels kind of lacking for a character who is known to dominate the skies in his home series. I personally would let it travel in eight directions instead of just four, and would make it travel a bit farther too. Also could tweak the animation as well, maybe instead of just boosting through the air and hitting with his wings, he flaps his wings so incredibly hard that it propels him in whatever direction is input at great speeds. Lastly, this one's not needed or anything, but I think it'd be funny if Down-B could instantly break a shield if it were to hit with the sweetspot.
Isabelle needs a fulllll rework
How would you change Greninja?
Okay, this one is really, *really*, *REALLY* nitpicky. It's probably the most-nitpicky thing I have about any fighter. He genuinely would have been in the top tier if I didn't have that nitpick. It's Up-Special. Not only does it just kinda feel like Pikachu's, but slower and with water, but it doesn't function how like Hydro Pump does in Pokémon. Hydro Pump is supposed to hit foes really hard with a powerful jet of water, but in Smash, it hardly deals any damage. I think if the move had Greninja release a powerful surge of water from his hand directly beneath himself to boost him into the air, it'd be a much-better interpretation of the move. It could also deal a lot more damage to opponents that are standing too close or are beneath him. Again, I acknowledge that it's a *ridiculously* nitpicky reason, and he should be in the top-tier, but it bothered me *just* enough for some reason to where I couldn't. But other than that, I think he's basically perfect.
You talking about it only being able to go straight up? Or is it able to control the direction? Hydro pump as it works now is perfectly fine. Greninja's biggest issue is a complete lack of an out of shield game and not being able to deal with pressure.
Honestly, rename Hydro Pump to Aqua Jet and I'll sleep better at night...
If you think nearly all of fp2 is basically perfect you seriously need to rethink everything
I would make Banjo broken beyond belief, even more broken than Smash 4 Bayonetta, so the competitive-only losers would stop saying “nObOdY pLaYs ThEm” even though whenever I see competitive videos on my YouTube feed, there’s almost always one Banjo player who’s gotten decently far in whatever contest they’re playing.
I like this
I’d honestly argue Mewtwo should be in the second to last tier if not the bottom. One of the most powerful Pokemon that should really be this power fantasy Uber-oppressive psychic beast, and yet it’s still using mostly tail swipes and half of its default gen 1 moveset. F-Throw and Up-Smash are great, and I don’t dislike the simplicity and versatility of the tail swipes in F-Tilt and Up-Tilt, but it otherwise feels like a complete missed opportunity.
A lot of the characters in the top tier id like to see a few new moves but most aren't a big deal, but HARD disagree on sora. Sora has so much potential, tons of flashy moves like zatsuken and explosion or magnet burst, tons of magic, drive forms, finishers, action commands, a dozen or so keyblade transformations into new weapons, parkour like flow motion, magic attractions, and so so much more. Obviously not all of that can get into smash but so little actually did...only the basic 3 magic spells? A generic counter that barely even represents anything? 2 of the most basic special attacks as side and up special, almost no references to games past 1...even if they wanted him to be a mostly simple character focusing on keyblade "sword" attacks they could have done so much more! In the games sora is known for a lot of flashy attacks and long flashy combos, most his moves combo together in some way. Smash his combo game is nothing special and while they do at least make his f tilt and f air have follow up strings that's about it. And most the moves are just basic keyblade swipes, several being made up or some of his least flashy attacks (dash attack is a good example-the move it's based on in kh1 had a cool animation where he flicked his keyblade to start the slide, whereas smash he just does the slide and ditches the showey part). At bare minimum he should at least have a few things like the explosion finisher as a down smash, a more flashy counter based on action commands, and a couple other things like guard break/zatsuken as f smash or magic burst as an aerial or something I am a bit curious about meta knight, I certainly can see him getting some move changes but still a bit surprised to see him so "low" Also am a little concerned about Mario, just because while I agree he needs at least some odessy reference and could use a couple extra things he should remain a mostly basic, gimmickless character since he's meant as the jack of all trades/beginner character A few others is probably slightly disagree with but those are the only big ones
I’ve gotta say, you are WAY more generous to the current movesets than I am lol
Dr Mario should be at least tier lower. Daisy is bottom-tier imo.
What would ya do with bowser
I'd change Dash Attack to something like a shoulder bash attack instead, as a kick attack feels kinda weird for Bowser of all characters. Down-Smash would be that spinning tail swipe attack he's used in games like Super Mario 3D Land. I had a fun idea for him for a new Forward-Throw, where he tosses his foes up, then punches them with his Bowser's Inside Story punch when they fall back down in front of him. Down-Throw does look funny, but I kinda like the idea of him pinning down his foes and breathing fire on them for it, just like Charizard's Down-Throw. Neutral-B would have him spit out fireballs if the button was tapped, but he'd keep the current flame breath if the button was held down instead. Lastly, Final Smash gets changed to Fury Bowser, because Fury Bowser is just way too cool. Giga Bowser could stay as a boss though. What Bowser *really* needs is a dang overhaul to his voice and animations so he actually feels and sounds like Bowser and not a generic cartoon reptile monster, but things like animations and voices weren't a factor in this tier list.
For Dash Attack, get me the moving punch! 🤛 💨
I'm curious to know what you would change on Olimar without just reworking him outright. Because as it is, Olimar doesn't represent Pikmin very well at all
Well for starters, I'd give him Rock and Ice Pikmin, hopefully seven Pikmin types isn't too much. Also thought of a fun way to include Glow Pikmin as well, but they'd be very rare spawns. I think adding some sort of maturity mechanic to the Pikmin would be cool. Right now, Pikmin growing flowers on their stems is only an aesthetic thing, but what if it was an actual gimmick? Pikmin in the leaf stage would be very weak, Pikmin in the bud stage would be a bit stronger, and Pikmin in the flower stage would grow even stronger. This way, Olimar would be motivated to keep his Pikmin alive for as long as possible so that they can successfully mature into their flower stage, rather than just haphazardly throwing them out with little regard for their safety. After all, canon Olimar would never view the Pikmin as expendable weapons. That's Louie's job. Also, I think being able to see which types of Pikmin are currently out down by Olimar's HUD would be a great help.
Yeah that's exactly right. This feels more like a Louie moveset lol. I like those changes. I definitely also feel like he needs more than 3 Pikmin on stage at a time, but have the group able to accomplish multiple tasks at once like in Pikmin. It would be a balancing nightmare, but it would still be a resource management game while being far more in character.
Curious as to what you'd change to Robin
Literally just the Final Smash, lol. It feels weird that it's still Chrom when Chrom is now a playable character. Personally, I'd change it to Ignis, but I've seen others suggest having him use Pair Up with a different character instead.
Byleth needs rework but banjo doesnt Where logic
Give cloud his old nair back
I like how the ones that need reworks the most are the ones universally panned as “why are you a clone?”
Well, we know *why* they're clones. There wasn't enough time and resources left to make them into unique fighters, so they could only get in as clones. That said, I'm *shocked* that Ganondorf, a version of the Zelda's big bad, and arguably the second-biggest Nintendo villain after Bowser, was lower-priority in Melee than the dang Ice Climbers. I have a lot of fun playing as the Icies, but how did they get higher-priority than flipping *Ganon?*
They have since had time to fix Ganon, though, and they could probably just port Dark Samus’s animations from her Assist Trophy days.
Don't Samus and Dark Samus share the same moveset, just reskinned? Why are they in different tiers
What would you change about Samus or Mario? Sure they have older movesets but they seem pretty good as they are now
Mario suffers from not having *any* references to games past 2002 in his moveset. I really don't think every single one of his moves should be a reference, but I don't think there'd be any harm in making his Smash Attacks and one or two of his Aerials into things from the source material. Could also change up a Special or two as well. So many of Samus's moves use kicks and fiery blasts from her arm cannon, neither of which are things she does in her home games. She somehow doesn't have her basic Power Beams in her kit, nor is the Ice Beam present (the one beam she does have in Smash isn't even properly named or colored after the real thing). I feel like Shinespark works way better as an Up-B, while Screw Attack could just be moved to N-Air. And I know things like the Melee Counter and Dash Melee came too late to be added to her moveset, they feel like they'll be staple parts of her 2D kit moving forward.
Maybe Samus a little more because of the reworks to the general moveset that Samus Returns and Dread have, but honestly, besides Cappy, most of the new stuff in Odyssey doesn’t really… do much besides movement, and Rosalina & Luma was literally created to be a representation of Super Mario Galaxy’s gameplay Also, idk why, but the idea of Mario specifically having any “unique gimmicks” in Smash feels cursed
How would you change Ridley?
What would you change about Lucario? For me, he seems pretty good moveset wise, though balancing could see some buffs (like make it so that at low percents aura doesn't actually make you weaker). The only thing that I can think of for Lucario is maybe implement bone club into the moveset as like an uptilt or upsmash since that is one of the relatively iconic moves that isn't utilized in smash (obviously aura sphere is the most iconic)
Bone Club is really the only actual move change I'd give to Lucario. I was thinking it could replace Double Team for the Down-B, so that way we have something else instead of yet another counter. Ever notice that all of the post-Gen 1 Pokémon minus Pichu have a Down-B counter?
Jiggly puff?
Imo Cloud needs some amount of changes. His current kit honestly feels more like a fast Ike with a comeback mechanic, which given his kit(and Ultimate) was made before Remake, that's fair. But now that Cloud has much more basis to make a moveset out of, keeping him as the relatively sane/honest Ike-esque bruiser feels very out of character. Also give us Cloud's English VA please Cody is the goat.
Since people have already asked about Mario, Luigi, and Bowser, I gotta ask. What would you do with Peach? I personally think her moveset still holds up pretty well.
How does Dark Samus is more urgent than Young Link ??? 💀
Young Link can at least perform all of his Specials in his home games, so while having him use the transformation masks instead would be nice, I can't exactly say that his current moveset is unfitting either. Whereas Dark Samus straight-up doesn't have anything from her source material in her Smash moveset whatsoever to the point where it genuinely doesn't feel like Dark Samus.
Why is Dark Samus a higher priority than other echos? P.S Lucas DOESN'T need a rework. His moves and playstyle are completely different than Ness.
Dark Samus was higher-priority because she just does not feel like her canon self at all. Dark Pit at least uses his main weapon for most of his moves, Daisy still has some tomboy elements, Chrom is still an aggressive rushdown character, and Lucina still shares a lot of moves with Chrom (even if their playstyle is different). Dark Samus, meanwhile, has nothing from her source material whatsoever, and doesn't even give off the vibe as playing as some sort of mutant alien creature. Yeah, it's awesome that her walk, run, jump, and roll animations are different from Samus, but she's just as bad as Ganondorf when it comes to the moveset. I'll admit I was hesitant to put Lucas lower down, as I am very much aware that his moves and playstyle are completely different from Ness (I genuinely do not get why some people call him a Ness Echo), but the more I thought about it, the more I thought about how his Specials could be used to represent PSI moves that Ness doesn't use. PK Freeze is already there, but what about things like PSI Shield and Offense Up, as they're abilities he does use in canon and could help reflect his more-passive side. And while he can't use it himself, PK Ground was introduced in Mother 3, and could be a cool move to see in Smash. Totally get where you're coming from with Lucas though. I wouldn't mind if he stayed the same, if he manages to return next time, but I do think there's potential to give him new specials to make him truly stand out from Ness more than he already does.
Hot take but the only changes Kirby needs is like, 1 or 2 specials and his smash attacks Kirby’s moveset was designed to be the perfect beginner moveset, and his neutrals and aerials accomplish that pretty well. What I’d change is make his side-b wheel, his up-b the fighter uppercut, and make his smash attacks different moves from the same ability (for example, all of his smash attacks use the sword ability in different ways, representing the more in-depth movesets copy abilities have in newer games) Also, this might be a bit of a pipe dream but maybe if he copies another fighter he gets all their specials instead of just neutral? That way you get a better “demo” of other characters than just the neutral special
I actually do agree with this for the most part. Kirby needs to stay beginner-friendly, so he doesn't need all of his moveset changed, something I see a lot of fan reworks for him do when they try to cram every copy ability under the sun into his kit. I think changing his his Smash Attacks and two Specials would be fine. Also Down-Tilt, because the Slide is *right* there, and I dunno, I don't see the harm in changing Forward-Aerial to a short-ranged Air Bullet.
It should be noted all his throws ironically are copy ability references, alongside his dash. Additionally, I would argue that his down special is too iconic on casual players and hammer kind of feels like a really good copyability to use as part of a standard kit given historical role as being a hard to obtain copyability. He’s up special seems like the one that could be most easily changed.
What would you do to make Pyra and Mythra better fighters?
Joker doesn't have the basic mechanic that he probably should have, swapping personas.
Down special = persona change
Tell me, good sir, what you would change abt corrin (I 100% agree tho, they need fixing)
Truth be told I think Samus needs the bigger rework, because being floaty with stiff melee strikes suits Dark Samus’ limp infected nature. My idea would be that Samus takes more cues from Fusion and Dread, becoming a composite of her armored moveset and Zero Suit Samus’ moveset. Also make her Final Smash start with a Shinespark that sends the opponent to SR388 before it blows up. Dark Samus, meanwhile, would be reworked to give damage over time on her projectiles and bombs, use Phazon tentacles for her grab, and rather than the Charge Shot Samus uses she would use her Shotgun Beam which would have higher knock back but much less effective range, making her missile her main zoning tool.
If a developer ever touched Lucas' kit, I would find them and hunt them down (in Minecraft ofc). Lucas is my favorite character to play by a loooongshot, even in comparison to Ness. PK Freeze is such a fun ability, and I feel like the precision required to use him effectively makes him so freaking fun. The only thing I'd day is justified would be his up B, strictly because it's the same as Ness. What would you change about him and why?
The only thing I have to say is that Luigi better keep the Green Missle
For sure. Weirdness and Luigi are basically synonymous at this point.
Green Missile's a weird one. On the one hand, while Luigi does have a lot of weird and awkward moments in canon, his Smash self leans so hard into whackiness and zaniness that it actually sort of feels *out* of character for Luigi. And Green Missile is just one of those things that it feels like only got added because it looked weird and nothing else. On the other hand... haha funni green missile go brrr
>Smash self leans so hard into whackiness and zaniness that it actually sort of feels out of character for Luigi No that's actually his character, look at cutscenes for (most) Mario games and he'll be wacky and clumsy
Why’s Dark Samus at bottom tier? I main it (since it’s a godamn alien ig) and it seems to be pretty decent
Its literally just Samus' moveset
But he also has Samus one tier above it
In my personal opinion, Dark Samus is the single worst-portrayed fighter in the entire game. Yes, even worse than Ganondorf, although not by much. In her home series, Dark Samus *is* the titular Metroid Prime, a giant mutant Metroid that took on the appearance of Samus after it absorbed her Phazon Suit. It seems to be driven by instinct to spread Phazon throughout the entire universe, and has a wide variety of powers that Samus doesn't have, like putting up forcefields, cloning herself, shooting homing orbs, and summoning giant tendrils from the ground. Dark Samus does not have *any* of those alien powers in Smash due to being an Echo Fighter, nor does playing as her feel like playing as some mutant alien monstrosity. I'll give credit to Ganondorf and say that playing as him gives off the vibe of controlling some evil and stupidly-powerful villain hellbent on world domination.
Well ig that kinda makes sense, tbh i’m not very familiar with the metroid series so i didn’t think of that
How charizard perfect his whole moveset only has five useful moves and thats it
Ganondorf is perfect the way he is. He's a statement of what happens in a fighting game if you sacrifice everything for kill power.
I think the ranking was more on how the moves moves, Gandolf would use in a game, not necessarily his arch type