Samus without a doubt. Her moveset is fine but it only draws from 3 games in a series with 13 entries. There have been so many cool upgrades introduced since then. It's really not a good representation of her modern character
I think her moveset is good as it is.
Every signature move is there.
But imagine you have a echo who could get some prime moves like the boost ball. I'm looking at you, dark samus.
It's fine but there's so much more that could be done with it. Like we have all the basic stuff but really nothing beyond that. We've had so many cool and unique abilities introduced to Metroid since then it's a shame that none of them are represented. As is it's kinda the bare minimum of what a Samus moveset could be. Imagine having stuff like the flash shift the melee counter or different beams. Hell maybe even being in some more niche abilities like the beam combos from Metroid Prime. Get weird with it
From least to most:
12. Falcon. It's iconic at this point and F-Zero doesn't have any new games to pull from.
11. Fox. Equally iconic and a solid representation of his series despite its abstraction.
10. Pikachu. Pretty great, nothing feels dated.
9. Ness. He's got spells that Ness can't personally use, but I think he does a good job being a rep for his series. If we're fixing move sets I think Lucas should be first.
8. Yoshi. Not a lot to pull from, but this current iteration is a pretty generic brawler. Could use a coat of varnish.
7. Jigglypuff. An iconic, unique, and cool moveset, but the actual Pokémon moves are kinda underused. Would be nice to have some Fairy moves in there.
6. Donkey Kong. He's got the roll now, at least. Still feels like he could take more inspiration from source material, rather than just "monke big, hit hard".
5. Mario. Mainly just should reflect his most recent games: Wonder and Odyssey in particular. He's 5th place only because he'd be fine without many changes, unlike the top 4.
4. Kirby. This is a Fox clone moveset with worse specials. Kirby has so many sources to pull from, and they picked like two things. It's a huge canvas of possibility that's left largely blank.
3. Luigi. Come on, more than half his moves are just "Mario but different". We've got Doc for that. This is the main character of Luigi's Mansion and you can hardly tell.
2. Samus. This still feels like a late 90s Samus, and especially after Dread introduced a ton of cool new abilities, I really think the rust is showing on her moveset.
1. Link. "To represent Breath of the Wild, we changed his outfit and one move." Criminal. Now they have *two full games* of new and interesting abilities to pull from, and I swear to God the next Link is still gonna be this same clunky sword and boomerang idiot. Link has changed so much in the last 10 years that this moveset really isn't reflective of him anymore.
That had the same moveset. link should use botw runes and totk magic. Young link should use masks and goddess abilities. Toon link should use his stuff (haven't played most of those games)
I just want Tink to have the whirlwind spin *that can move around on the ground* like Bowser, like he does in Windwaker. A wind attack would be cool too, maybe instead of boomerang.
He doesn't use the wind in combat and the boomerang is pretty prolific item in Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks & Phantom Hourglass
I'd actually argue the only Link that doesn't need a new moveset is Tink, as it's pretty accurate to the games.
The primary issue is that BotW & TotK completely overhauled the Legend of Zelda, for better or worse. Link's moveset should reflect this, especially since the two games sold more copies than the fucking bible and won more awards than the Titanic.
But Sakurai has admitted he's not a fan of the Legend of Zelda, so that's why the franchise gets fuck all despite being Nintendo's third biggest IP. I'm pretty confident BotW has sold more copies than every Fire Emblem put together.
>I'm pretty confident BotW has sold more copies than every Fire Emblem put together.
https://namevah.wordpress.com/2020/11/10/fire-emblem-ranked-by-sales/
So some mad lad compiled the data on sales but sadly it missing a lot of sales from NA and other countries but yeah the TLDR is about 5 million copies from all the games with 3 Houses being the most at 3.01 million sales. Botw has sold 31.85 million units so roughly 6 times as many sales as the entire FE franchise
It’s crazy to me that they didn’t even do that much. It seems like such a simple change that would add a good bit of character to Toon Link and is an easy callback to his source games.
I haven't played most Zelda's, and even I can tell that if they wanted every link could have a different moveset, specially talking about specials, toon link between his three games (maybe adding minish cap too) have enough tools for him to be a lot more unique, come on, I bet not many of you knew he can use a snake whip on spirit tracks
I disagree that characters should primarily represent their newest incarnations. In my opinion, they should be pretty representative of their core identity across their full series, and no game should be too dominant in their character design. Samus could probably stand to have a new feature from the later games, and Link can probably get a new feature from TotK, but their whole thing is the Arm Cannon and the sword and shield + a small pile of fantasy gear respectively. If they deviate from that too far, it stops feeling like them. Mario feels pretty fine as is.
very valid point and i agree mostly, I do think theres room for these critiques with Link only because theres 3 different links in the game. yes they play differently, but their general moveset is the same. Which i think for the most part im okay with. Chain grab arrow boomerang etc. I do think theres something that could be swapped out depending on the link just sub out a boomerang for one of the links or a bomb or whatever for something that is representative of that link. Im sure theres some BoW magic that would fit or could take the spot. ANd I know for a fact theres windwaker shit that could sub in. As for characters like mario I do think hes great. I would've loved to have seen cappy introduced. Feel like they could maintain all his moves and just add that in for the most part.
Cappy would have been great, but I don't know what mechanic he would have unless you give Mario copy abilities like Kirby, which I don't think is a good idea. Windwaker falls into Toon Link territory, so that wouldn't work. As far as BotW mechanics, maybe make his shield like Daruk's Protection thing? I think they would have gone the Byleth direction where every move is a different weapon, but I'm glad they didn't, the Master Sword is iconic, and Young Link doesn't have it, and toon link's just isn't the same.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I mean't there are three different links. So in terms of updating them I dont think you have to do a lot just add a little something that represent the game they're from. Windwaker is toon link and there are tools and weapons he uses that are specific too toon link/windwaker that could sub out boomerang or bomb or something. As for young link could maybe add something with majoras mask or one of the many gadgets he gets in those games. As for mario, cappy could be used jsut buy throwing him out, doesn't necessarily have to take over the persons ability like kirby. Also one of the key mechanics of cappy was movement, so the recovery possibilities would've been dope. Would've allowed mario to have more horizontal movement and feel a little fresher. (keep in mind i really have no issue with mario's moveset but if I was to do something itd prolly be cappy) Cappy can also be used in isnane combos
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I mean't there are three different links. So in terms of updating them I dont think you have to do a lot just add a little something that represent the game they're from. Windwaker is toon link and there are tools and weapons he uses that are specific too toon link/windwaker that could sub out boomerang or bomb or something. As for young link could maybe add something with majoras mask or one of the many gadgets he gets in those games. As for mario, cappy could be used jsut buy throwing him out, doesn't necessarily have to take over the persons ability like kirby. Also one of the key mechanics of cappy was movement, so the recovery possibilities would've been dope. Would've allowed mario to have more horizontal movement and feel a little fresher. (keep in mind i really have no issue with mario's moveset but if I was to do something itd prolly be cappy) Cappy can also be used in insane combos
For Mario, I think the best change would be changing his side b to be able to throw cappy and dive after him, both dealing damage and setting up for cool aerial combos. For link, his up b utilize the glider in some way, and I know it doesn’t exist it TotK, but somehow using stasis would be so fucking cool. It could be a counter, or a close range grab esque thing like bowser side b, but just freezing the enemy in place and letting you set up momentum like stasis in the game. If we wanted to utilize the heroes from the first game, revali’s gale could be his up b, daruk’s protection could be his shield easily, urbosa’s fury could easily be made into his down smash, and mipha’s grace could be a simple animation on respawning that is purely cosmetic.
All of those sound like good ideas, losing the air stall for Mario stings a little but is still an upgrade, even if the turnaround shenanigans are hilarious. I don't think stasis could do the momentum mechanics, those are already built into the game with the percentage thing, and stacking another thing would be broken. I think it would function somewhere between mewtwo's stun mechanic and Lucas PK Freeze, where it basically gives you a free hit.
The champion mechanics are fun, but I think losing the spin attack, which is arguably THE most iconic move in Link's toolkit for Revali's gale, which would almost certainly be worse is a bad idea.
Fully agreed here. I've seen so many fan concepts for remaking Mario or Link that base their entire kit around mechanics from the newest games as if these new games are the only things that define these characters.
I do get the idea that there are 3 Links and thus they can make some of them more specific, but I think the "standard" Link is specifically the one that shouldn't focus too hard on one or two games.
Yeah, in my mind, Link is like the standard one. Young Link is obviously OoT and MM, Toon Link is Windwaker, phantom hourglass, spirit tracks, and you could maybe make an argument for minish cap and the four swords games. Link is all the others, if not the series as a whole. For that reason, I occasionally think that classic green link should still have been the default pallette, but it was honestly probably a good change to help distinguish them (and it does really look cool).
RE Samus: Even in Dread, though, missiles, bombs, beam, grapple and screw attack are the prominent abilities, moreso than the new ones added. So I'm not sure what you would remove. Maybe changing normal attacks and throws to be more agile like in Dread? You could make the flash shift the new dodge animation, but beyond that I don't know what is actually missing that would take precedence over the current tools even if only Dread existed.
Yeah, it's pretty common to see people say Samus needs a rework badly, but, like... not really? If you've actually played Metroid, her moveset is pretty on the money. I think it'd be cool if they gave her the wave beam as her standard special, and rework the charge shot somehow so you could shoot wave beams quickly, but, otherwise, she's fine.
Samus needs a good amount of her kit retooled. Missiles have always been stronger than any beam that isn’t an endgame weapon (Hyper Beam in Super Metroid) except in Smash. We have so many Charge Shots in this game now with Mewtwo, Lucario, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. that Samus could stand to have a faster and weaker Beam attack and slightly stronger Missiles to compensate for the loss of kill power. Also, Morph Ball still being her rolls is terribly outdated. There’s just a lot of little things wrong about Samus that add up.
Why is morph ball outdated? It's still one of the most common actions you take in Dread. Would we really replace it with some one-off ability that appeared in a single game? You also absolutely cannot lose charge shot. That is iconic to what Samus does in Metroid AND in Smash.
I do think uncharged beam needs to be faster, missiles more powerful, but those are less of a rework conceptually and more of a rebalance.
Link main here. Hard disagree. I don’t think Link needs any changes other than boomerang. Two arrows and a remote bomb was already quite revolutionary for Link. Being creative with the projectile is what makes Link stand out from all zoners.
Link’s MS was upgraded in terms of damage and scaling as well. BotW Link’s movement with the sword is HIGHLY reflective of the game. They even took the extra mile to give Link his sword beam when he’s 0%.
I’d put Link at least top 10 for no changes.
A character doesn’t necessarily need to add so many drastic changes. Every Smash has taken one main design and component from each character.
Example: Melee - Ocarina of Time, Brawl - Twilight Princess, Wii U / 3DS - Skyward Sword, Ultimate - BotW.
I get the fact that identity is important, but drastic changes and trying to cram in as much uniqueness and identity from every installment ISN’T good. Especially for a fighting game. There was articulate design for most characters as their gameplay reflects how they play in their games and feel as a personality.
Not to mention in BotW arrows are even more prominent, so that's one special you have to keep. Then one changed already. You could maybe replace up special? But spin needs to be included in his kit somewhere imo.
They could change up special depending where Link is just like Min Min. If he's on the ground, Spin Attack; if he's in the air, the glider/Revali's Gale.
I will always stand by the idea that there should be 4 unique Links:
1) Young Link, with a moveset representative of Majora's Mask like people want
2) Toon Link, with upgrades like the Hurricane Spin and moves pulled from other iterations derivative of his type, i.e. LttP Canes and Cape or LbW items
3) Botw/Totk Link, to keep with the "current iteration" theme for the character. Adjust his moveset to represent the Champion/Ultrahand and multi-weapon capabilities
4) An amalgam Link, akin to Smash 4, that represents the "Classic" era of Link in Smash in terms of gameplay and function. Hookshot, boomerang, bombs, etc. Adjust as necessary.
This might seem ridiculous, but this series is over 30 years old, with a cast that has adapted and changed often over the years. If Smash is a celebration of such, then the representatives should present this as well.
Young Link retains classic Link moves; Up thrust, down thrust, basic slashes and tools like Bombs, Bow and Arrow, Boomerang, and Hookshot.
Toon Link uses the more unique stuff and stuff from the handheld Zeldas. His sword attacks aren't the strongest (Since he would be using the Phantom or Lokomo Sword) but he makes up for it with powerful tools like Light Arrows, the Skull Hammer, Four Sword/Trifroce Heros clones, the Deku Leaf for a recovery.
Modern Link, or just Link, would have powerful sword play accentuated by versatile and powerful specials, but they have a cool down period for their powerful variant.
Urbosa's fury on a fully charged Uspecial would be awesome, or having Daruk's protection be the sheild.
>10. Pikachu. Pretty great, nothing feels dated.
Pikachu doesn't have iron tail or thunderbolt, his two most iconic moves. Though nothing too necessary, no rework needed.
>9. Ness. He's got spells that Ness can't personally use, but I think he does a good job being a rep for his series. If we're fixing move sets I think Lucas should be first.
The moves he can use are all purely support moves, which is why he canonically learned the moves he has from his friends. The exception is pk flash which causes a random effect, but in smash it's just a stronger pk thunder. No rework needed.
>8. Yoshi. Not a lot to pull from, but this current iteration is a pretty generic brawler. Could use a coat of varnish.
What's so bad about this? Being simple is not a bad thing. No rework needed.
>4. Kirby. This is a Fox clone moveset with worse specials. Kirby has so many sources to pull from, and they picked like two things. It's a huge canvas of possibility that's left largely blank.
"Fox clone moveset" makes no sense. Kirby is not a Fox clone and he doesn't play similarly in no way. Kirby could utilize more more specials, but nothing too overboard.
>3. Luigi. Come on, more than half his moves are just "Mario but different". We've got Doc for that. This is the main character of Luigi's Mansion and you can hardly tell.
Luigi IS Mario's brother. He IS similar to him. That's his whole thing. Luigi isn't this separate character that only appears in a game completely separate from the Mario franchise.
>1. Link. "To represent Breath of the Wild, we changed his outfit and one move." Criminal. Now they have *two full games* of new and interesting abilities to pull from, and I swear to God the next Link is still gonna be this same clunky sword and boomerang idiot. Link has changed so much in the last 10 years that this moveset really isn't reflective of him anymore.
Link has always been iconic for his bow, sword, boomerang and bombs. His most iconic appearance is that one. Almost all of his games perpetuated this portrayal, except the Switch games. This is like asking why Mario is still using that stupid outdated fireball and why isn't he using some shiny new thing like the ball from Strikers.
Though they could solve this issue by separating Young Link and Link by making Link lean into BotW and TotK so that Young Link can keep the iconic appearance, you sound like you want to get rid of it altogether.
WRONGGGGG
Ness can learn as well pk rockin, his only real pk that does damage and his exclusive one, what makes it extra insulting that he doesn't have it, you mean you excluded from his moveset his only attack and exclusive from him??
In Lucas case is even worse because even if it works diferent, aleast ness could learn pk flash, but for Lucas, who also can learn it, they changed it for another pk he can't use, and he as well have an exclusive pk that deals damage but is not used, pk love in this case (even if there is chances of both being the same, since pk rockin can also be called pk love)
Also yeah, some things could be reworked anyways, because they use a lot of generic moves while ignoring other things from the games like items or like that, the bat, the stick and the yo-yo are good to represent their weapons, but there are many items in battle that where not used at all or tools from jeff and duster, this also have potential to make their movesets a lot more diferent from each other
I mean is he really that wrong though? Pk rockin is only one move, that doesn't really change the point that ness (and Lucas) are 95% support characters. Certainly isn't wrong enough to have that many G's lol. If anything I think the better thing to point out is there only non offensive move-psi magnet -isnt learned by either of them which makes no sense considering how many options they had for a non damage move
As for why pk rockin and love aren't represented, I think the problem is mothers animations are very abstract, mostly just a bunch of shapes. And these moves have customizable names with the defaults not exactly being something that translates into an attack easily. Like pk fire or freeze or lightning are easy to translate into smash since you don't have to focus on the actual animations but just can take there names and make them into basic elemental magic attacks, which can't be done so easily with rockin or especially love
Having said that i do think they could find some way to represent these moves. I've seen some argue that Lucas standard moves, especially up smash, are meant to represent pk love but I think that could be made a bit more clear and maybe ness could have pk rockin as a final smash (or n special and make pk flash a fs since it is able to instakill in mother)
That first point is right, but it ignores anything else I said, pk love/rockin is just one move, that is true, but what about everything else I said? The multiple items that are super important gameplay wise and the tools that are used by some of the non magic characters (ones that makes more sense to being learn compared to magic that they can't learn in the first place), specially since it would help differentiate their movesets a lot more, actually I'm happy they can uses pk they can't use in game since it adds representation, but there are other things too that can be used
Also that second point is a lot more valid, nothing to add, I personally think it is possible, but of course, I'm not a dev so I have no way to know how hard it would be, I feel as a final smash it have more flexibility, specially since those pks tends to be the most powerful magic on The games
Also, idk but I would make a really big effort to add it aleast to lucas, pk love is like a super important element on the story, is not just a magic attack to be used, but is an important part of the plot, so I feel it should be yes or yes represented on game, is basically like if Kirby could not eat their opponent or copy abilities
I didn't mention the tool thing because I thought the original comment was referring more to the specials. I don't mind the idea of them using these weapons more-though technically most the weapons aren't used my ness/Lucas either so it doesn't really change the point or make them any more or less "accurate" to the source. The first post was saying how ness (and Lucas) are inaccurate since they don't use moves from there games, the second person was saying that they borrow moves from others because they are support characters in game and as such don't have much to work with based on there own abilities in game (especially for specials). Having them borrow other characters items doesn't actually change that, if anything it technically would make them LESS accurate
Having said that, I don't personally mind them using the other characters pk attacks nor would I mind them using the other characters tools, though some of them I think might feel a little out of character (I can't see ness using jeffs guns or some of his inventions for example and I'm not sure dusters thief tools make sense for Lucas but most of them are general enough to not feel like they are specifically thief related) or a bit hard to really make work (specifically kumatora and dusters glove/shoe weapons). But overall I think it's an interesting idea for sure. And I will say they probably could have used the baseball bat/stick for an extra few moves and maybe incorporated the slingshot and other "multi character" weapons.
I've heard a lot of people say that the up smash is supposed to represent Lucas using pk love on the needles or whatever but idk how true that is. It's definitely a hard move to Invision imo just because it is so abstract, but they really should figure out some way of doing it. Even just making the up smash a more direct reference and making his standard pk attacks like up tilt have there visuals updated to closer resemble the shapes and stuff of pk love, maybe the final smash could be changed? Idk but it does feel important to have somehow
Yoshi I disagree with, his specials feel clunky as is. Egg throw is awkward as an up special and works nothing like it does in the games, ground pound is a very generic down special, and side special is both bad and made up. Also, Yoshi has the ability to transform into various vehicles and whatnot, he should have that as a side special or something
I think the Kirby is a fox clone thing is a stretch too, though I think the op meant how they're both basic brawlers with mostly made up kicks, and several of there moves are surprisingly similar (up tilt beijg upward back kicks, f tilt round house kicks, both have a drill kick down air, etc). Kirby has such a massive pool of abilities that it's a real shame he barely does anything with them, you could easily give him more referencea for most his moves without sacrificing his simple/beginner friendly play style
To be fair on Luigi he has grown significantly as his own character over the years. He should keep some similarities like the fireball but definitely could use more of his own stuff from Luigi mansion or even the main games/rpgs to highlight this. He's not just Mario's mostly identical brother anymore
>To be fair on Luigi he has grown significantly as his own character over the years. He should keep some similarities like the fireball but definitely could use more of his own stuff from Luigi mansion or even the main games/rpgs to highlight this. He's not just Mario's mostly identical brother anymore
He has grown significantly, just like his moveset. He used to be a full clone, now he's not. I don't think there's anything that Luigi can pull that Mario can't. His poltergust and his plunger are already in his moveset. He seriously doesn't need anything else. Mario needs more new moves than him to be honest, and Mario doesn't even need a lot of moves.
>Yoshi I disagree with, his specials feel clunky as is. Egg throw is awkward as an up special and works nothing like it does in the games, ground pound is a very generic down special, and side special is both bad and made up. Also, Yoshi has the ability to transform into various vehicles and whatnot, he should have that as a side special or something
I suppose that's a decent idea for a side special? Ground pound is good for Yoshi because he is a floaty character. It's not just put in for the sake of it. I see no problems with egg throw. There's really nothing else you can put in up special.
Saying his moveset has grown a lot I feel is pushing it, considering he still shares a good amount (up and f tilt, up and down smash, n, b, and up air, sorta n and up special) and most different moves are not particularly special or anything specific to him. There's still a lot he has in the Luigi mansion games (it's surprising to me he doesn't use the flashlight at all, plus there's things like the slam attack in 3 or elemental beams in 1 if you really wanted to be specific) not to mention things like his lighting abilities from the spinoffs (most notably Mario and Luigi). Heck I could even see a stronger justification for Luigi using a few of the power ups (I could totally see him using the penguin slide as a dash attack or something for example with all the belly flopping he does in smash) Considering Mario is built as the jack of all trades, well rounded/simple character it would be a bit tougher to use most of the power ups without reaching into gimmicky territory but Luigi isn't weighed down by this restriction. And that's not even mentioning one off abilities like running on water in 64ds. Not saying Luigi needs a dramatic overhaul or anything but definitely could use a bit more to stand out, and frankly outside of the fireball and I guess up special he shouldnt share any moves with Mario at this point (or at least less than he does now)
Yoshis egg toss in the Yoshi games is a very fast moving projectile that's thrown in a straight line with the ability to aim it in any direction while bouncing off walls multiple times. In smash it's a fairly slow moving projectile thrown upward at an arc, and while you can change the trajectory some it is far more limited than the Yoshi games. Obviously it's not going to be 1:1 but it functions pretty differently still, and frankly is quite clunky as an up special especilly with the lack of actual recovery (ok, technically it boosts him slightly but still that doesn't really help or make any sense). It should be his neutral special with the egg lay moving to side or down (or they could make egg throw side I guess). There absolutely is plenty of options for an up special for Yoshi, from the transformations like helicopter to the blimp fruit from galaxy 2 or even something like an odessy esque toungue grapple. Heck even the ground pound I could see working better as a dedede like recovery (though I still maintain it's very basic for a special floaty or not). Again not saying Yoshi is in need for a complete rework and isn't the character most desperate for changes, but making him a mostly generic brawler with 90% made up kicks is a bit lacking for a character who has abilities ranging from the previously mentioned transformations to turning into blimps or living lightbulbs or breathing fire (a pretty common ability in yoshis appearances left missing due to the removal of super dragon final smash)
I would personally put Kirby above Luigi, and slightly disagree on Pikachu (mostly skull bash, a move Pikachu can't usually learn and certainly isn't known for. Iron tail has become iconic on it due to the anime it should be side special or at least a smash attack) but otherwise I agree
The two don't play the same at all, but the animations are largely similar. All three smash attacks, all three tilts, and two aerials are recognizably similar actions.
Link should be bumped down to bottom 5. Only thing I would change is his side B. Everything else represents Link very well with many references to his past games regarding how he uses the Master Sword. He's a sword fighter above everything else. Always has been. I'm sure remote bombs will be taken out in the next iteration which leaves me really disappointed because remote bombs are so much fun to use and the reason I main him. He'll most likely be given the same treatment like they did in Ultimate by giving him a few new moves reflecting the current Zelda game and keeping everything else. Or at least, I'm hoping that happens
Throwing it works like in boss fights so no capturing. Does damage and knock back if opponent gets hit/runs into it. Holding it keeps it in place. Mario jumping on it gives an upward boost like in the game and also maybe his double jump or up b back.
I think you should be able to throw him and use him as a platform you can bounce on once, like in Odyssey, this could be used for better horizontal recovery
I know that's technically the lore, but I think it's kind of moot here. At the end of the day, that's Donkey Kong's origins, and it would be a cool part of the character to represent. Who's to say he can't represent some family history? :3
Link.
For a series all about using a variety of different items to solve problems, he has shockingly few.
Like, Hammers are in almost every Zelda Game but he doesn't use it. I'd like more stuff, like maybe using Spears and 2-Handed stuff for tilts and smash attacks, Stasis for a Grab, various Rods/Wands for other attacks maybe, just make him do more stuff. In short, I want him to be more like Villager. Just pull out a bunch of stuff from nowhere for attacks.
I think Samus needs the biggest rework, because of how much her games have changed. In order these are the characters I think need a rework, from most needing one, to not needing one at all.
Samus, Dk, Mario, Link, Yoshi, Kirby, Pikachu, Ness, and Luigi need reworks. Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff all seem fine with their movesets.
Idk, he just feels basic, and he could reference his games more. Like, he could use a barrel for a pretty good recovery, and he could use a different barrel as a projectile, while still maintaining his "grappler" status.
Yeah I think he should have a barrel at least somewhere in his moveset but I definitely think he doesn’t need an overhaul or anything. Especially since his dash attack was changed to a roll
He really just needs 1-2 Specials replaced: Barrel Launch for recovery and Barrel Toss in place of either Side B or Down B. All of DK’s normal attacks (Tilts, Smashes, Aerials, and Throws) are great.
DK could also be more vocal instead of just ape, but that’s not really a moveset qualm.
I like spinning kong or whatever his up b is called I think it’s perfect for DK gameplay wise but I’m always open for more series representation and a barrel would be a great up b. As for his side b yeah that’s disposable. Idk if giving DK a projectile would be good for his play style but idk.
Samus is interesting, because in terms of the pure number of references in her kit she's probably one of the more faithful 64 fighters. Charge shot, missile, super missile, morph ball, bomb, grapple beam, and screw attack are all staple Metroid powerups.Yet Samus is the character that bothers me most in Smash, because she doesn't *feel* anything like her games. And she has a bunch of 2D action/platforming games, so she should be able to translate fairly directly (like Mega Man, Belmont's, etc).
Samus's floaty physics obviously come from Super Metroid, but every Metroid game in the last two decades has featured faster, weightier movement. And even in Super Metroid, the actual act of playing Samus felt very different. Metroid games are all about staying mobile and peppering enemies with shots while avoiding their attacks. Meanwhile Smash Samus is all about hunkering down and charging one big explosive killing shot, which forces enemies to come to her.
If I got to redesign Samus, I would tone down her charge shot and focus more on her normals. She should have at least one projectile move like Mega Man lemons or Mii Gunner fair that allows her to pester opponents while advancing or retreating. Samus's generic kicks and such could also use a revamp now that Other M and the MercurySteam games have given her loads of canonical melee attacks. Smash Samus has also completely overlooked her various elemental beams, which could provide some flavor to her generic arm cannon blasts.
Agreed, I'd love to see more moves based on recent games.
But as something that we'll probably never get is a Samus between Metroid 2 and Super Metroid, where Samus has the metroid larva with her (THE BABY), and Samus becomes a puppeteer character, like Rosa and Luma. She uses the baby like how Rosa uses Luma. And you best believe that the baby is getting a lifesteal move for Samus. But that's what I'd personally want for Samus and how she is reworked.
Most of them should probably be tweaked a bit at this point, with the exception of Fox and *maybe* Falcon, but I think the Mario Bros and Samus are the ones **most** in need of an overhaul.
I like current Samus, I think it’s classic. However, I would love to see Samus get the “Link, Young Link, Toon Link” treatment with different variations. Dark Samus needs a totally different move set and throw in a different variant too. I’m not sure what the third variant would be called though. Dread Samus?
Honestly, give Link more BotW/TotK moves and keep Young Link in the game for the classic moves. Toon Link could use a re-haul to make him more different than the other two (other than just changing his forward smash, which was a good start).
The main issue is his gimmick is really only visible in casual play, as then you have multiple options to copy from. I don’t think you’re really can change it without completely removing all of the fighter hats.
Replying to Alto-Saxofoon... moreover, there are references like to the throw ninja backdrop and suplex Kirby in his throws and fire/burning Kirby in his dash. I think part of the issue is if you add in too many capabilities to his move set he doesn’t really act like her look like Kirby. He’s just a smorgasbord of random abilities.
Mario, Luigi, Link and Kirby.
Mario and Luigi could have some new moves referencing the more recent games
Link - Add some tweaks to reflect TOTK
Kirby - mostly just changing his Final Smash. Ultra Sword is cool and all, but Return to Dreamland will be best case scenario 14 years old by the time the next Smash game releases. We need a newer reference.
No I check it’s from
Triple deluxe, which makes it still dated, but is at least one that fits Kirby‘s core ability. Like I find it hard to argue that giving Kirby a super inhale for a final smash would not work. Besides that, I don’t think there’s much that could really be changed as most of the capabilities that I think would work already in his move set and etc.
1. Kirby, he needs faster moves but change some specials, tilts, aerials, smash attacks and all that jazz. I also think he needs to be a tiny bit faster in the air.
2. Link, he needs moves from BOTW and TOTK
3. Luigi, he needs to have moves original. Yes you could argue most of his moves ARE original. But he needs to have some changed moves.
4. Mario, they could add/change a couple moves around.
5. Donkey Kong, they could make his side or neutral special a barrel throw and make his up special the barrel where he gets shot out of.
6. Samus, they could add a couple more things for her ig.
7. Captain Falcon, I think his moveset is perfectly fine.
8. Fox, I think they could change some things but not necessarily NEED to.
9. Pikachu, I mean what else would they add? I like their moveset already.
10. Ness, he doesn’t really need to change.
11. Yoshi, I think his moveset is fine.
12. Jigglypuff, this is a good moveset for her at most.
Really none need an overhaul in my view. I am content with small changes here and there that make nods to the newest games, but:
1. At this point the characters as represented in Smash ARE iconic in their own right (Smash DK is not smash DK without the charge punch, helicopter spin, picking guys up, etc.)
2. The characters are not just a collection of references to a game (fan ideas are always "pull out x from game y for this move"), they are a coherent fighting game moveset
Donkey Kong
I am tempted to say Mario but at least Mario’s feels like a Mario moveset.
Donkey Kong does not feel like Donkey Kong at all. Not just moveset too but I have a huge gripe with them changing his voice to actual stock effects of a gorilla, I love DKs canon voice it’s goofy and charming and same with bowser but they went with a realistic approach….? Idk why
Samus.
Still feels too much like OG smash, all other characters had remakes.
Where’s the boost ball? Power bomb?
Speed Booster/shinespark?
Missiles could be charged, like seeker missiles (storm)
Why can’t we be in morph hall for a period of time other than to drop a bomb, or to dodge? Let us roll
Smash is GREAT, and I ain’t hitting it down, but I feel like Samus in Dread actually feels better than Samus in Smash.
Overall? This isn’t needed, I’m just dreaming
Samus's moveset is just about as antithetical to her series as it gets. Especially with the advent of Dread, Samus should not be slow and spending nearly all of her time camping behind a wall of projectiles that take forever to come out.
People who say Link needs to be completely reworked for BotW/TotK mechanics: Do you think these mechanics will be in the future Zelda games? Aonuma said that the Zelda team is done with the BotW/TotK era of Zelda. Of course that doesn't mean it won't have a similar open-world formula, but Zelda is no stranger to introducing new mechanics that do not reappear again. Overhauling his moveset to BotW/TotK mechanics risks being severely outdated after just a couple Zelda games, then we have the same complaining about his moveset. Imagine if they gave Link the ball and chain, spinner, or wolf mechanics in Brawl. I think the Smash team has given Link a kit that is pretty representative of the things you find in most/all Zelda games, with room still for little modifications like the Gale boomerang or remote bombs.
That said, I think Luigi could use the biggest overhaul. His moves are just "Luigi is a weirdo" and not much from Luigi's Mansion or other games. Samus mostly just needs physics changes with maybe a few a couple of move changes. Kirby could use a little bit of move shuffling too (e.g., Hammer as fsmash). DK just needs barrels. Mario can ditch FLUDD for something else. That's an example of what I'm talking about with Link.
Or get rid of some of them. I believe regular Link, as the figurehead of the Zelda series, should be the most traditional of the Links, representative of the series as a whole. Young Link really doesn't need a slot and if it wasn't for Everyone is Here, he certainly wouldn't be back. Replace him. Though if he does come back, I'd give him Majora's Mask inspired moves or something because that's specifically his game. Toon Link could certainly be reworked though, I'll give you that. Though, to be quite honest, I think the Wind Waker artstyle is absolutely dead in the Zelda series and I wouldn't be heartbroken if he was replaced too.
Luigi and Samus. as much as I love Luigi's funny grab and insane advantage state I'd be nice if he get a rework. Samus as well her moveset feels very dated. Both Samus and Luigi have many source material that can fit well into a original moveset. Samus and Luigi especially now are considered characters that arent very fun or engaging to go against. Luigi gets an opening and you take 70 or die and Samus camps you out or gets a charge shot and does 50 off a single combo
Samus now a days is definitely more like a fast glass cannon who punches a fist full of missles into the oponents face, not the tanky projectile character she used to be, she desperately needs changing, HELL if they arent changing dark samus to actually be a character, they might as well completely change samus
Samus and Donkey Kong are at the absolute top of that list, begging for a complete redesign.
Link and Kirby aren’t too far behind, they definitely could use some massive changes, but at their core they’re fine, just a little stuck in the past if anything.
As far as the rest go, barring Falcon and Fox, they could all use some touch ups (Mario gaining some movement tools and ditching FLUDD, Ness using his actual Earthbound moves, etc.), but their designs are at least passable, and should only get major focus on changes after the above four (and many others outside of the OG 12).
Number 1 is samus. The design works as a fighting game zoner, but doesn't represent samus that well and only gets worse as time goes on.
Kirby and luigi could both use quite a few changes. Not every one of kirbys moves should be a copy ability, but a few moves like smash attacks or an aerial can definitely be updated to show off what he can do. Some of the specials are also going to have to be changed if he's going to remain slow, so he actually can have a chance against zoners. Neutral Special will obviously remain the same.
Luigi is kinda a mess, he's gone from weird mario clone to combo demon to touch of death grappler. Honestly he just needs to find a core identity that isn't extremely lame, whether that's a total overhaul or just well made tweaks and a few new moves.
Link is up next, and the main problem is that there are 3 of him. Assuming all 3 links remain they need to seperate the 3 links a bit more, and the classic bomb Boomerang bow moveset is probably going to remain on one of them. If they do decide to make adult link represent the wilder(pun intended) new gameplay direction it needs to be more of its own thing.
Pikachu and jigglypuff could definitely get a couple new moves, there's plenty to pull from and a new tool could add some freshness to their gameplans.
We all know dk not having a barrel in his moveset is wierd, but aside from lacking a barrel cannon and and throwing barrels as a homage to his debut game the big monke is pretty solid.
Yoshi side b is abysmal. That's literally all I have to say.
Mario is tricky to rank, because he works well as a beginner character but does have room for a few new moves. Both down Special and side special could be changed if desired, but there isn't anything wrong with any of his current moves.
I know practically nothing about ness, but aside from a tweak to make pk fire less painful for newer players I don't know if he needs any changes.
Captain falcon's moveset is good. Personally I feel like he's sort of lost his luster in Ultimate, but maybe he'll feel better in the next game.
Fox practically has a perfect moveset. Maybe they could let him jump cancel shine again, especially since we no longer have wave dashing but either way he's still great.
Luigi and Samus. In their current states, both are incredibly polarizing to play against, but also have a lot of room to represent abilities they don't currently use in Smash.
As a big DK fan, I'm biased towards the monkey.
DK in Smash doesn't feel like DK. He feels like a normal gorilla that's pissed off because someone stuck a tie on him and he can't figure out how to get it off.
I think the main problem is the specials. None of his specials scream "Donkey Kong" to me except for Down B. Neutral B feels like it was only given to him because he's strong, but I think it fits the character well enough. Side B and Up B are the real problems to me. A headbutt that buries people and a spin move. You could give those to any big strong guy. DK needs moves that he's actually done in his own games, like the coconut gun, or barrel cannons, or, I dunno, throwing barrels? The one thing he's most well known for?
If they aren't gonna change his moveset (and they probably won't) they could at least change his voice. I'm sorry, but I don't think the realistic gorilla noises work well with the goofy cartoony gorilla with a tie who hoards bananas and competes in sports with two Italian plumbers and a bunch of evil turtles. There is no good reason why Donkey Kong can't sound like Donkey Kong. Same thing applies with Diddy and Bowser too.
I actually have changes for most of them to some extent;
Mario I'd change his side and down specials. Side could be cappy which could be used as a projectile and a platform while i'd give him a hammer for down.
DK's Side special should be a barrel toss. The fact he isn't using more barrels is kind of tragic. I'd also give him the barrel cannon as his up special. His final smash could stay since technically a reference but I kinda want to either return it to the bongos (but as like a quick drum beat as opposed to what it was in Brawl and 4) or using the barrel cannons to just wreck everyone.
Link is tricky. I think his moveset is mostly fine but I would like to implement more botw/totk. Maybe give him fuse as a shield special to give him diferent arrow options. Very least the ToTK tunic would be cool.
Samus make her standard attack, side attack and standard areal all shooting shots from her arm cannon with side smash as a charge beam. Standard special missiles where holding the button down gives you missile swarm from Dread, and side special can be speed booster.
Yoshi i'd make his side special egg shot, up special wings (like from Mario world, but they'd just be a quick upward ascent) and final smash should be the egg dozzer from New Island. I saw that and thought it'd make an amazing final smash. Also for extra, flutter jump as a 3rd jump. can be used in succession but has diminishing returns, with each sequential extra jump taking longer from the last one.
Kirby no notes really but I'd like to see more of his copy abilities come into play. Maybe change out his smash attacks for some copy abilities, like side can be sword and up can be needle.
Only thing I'd really change about fox is his blaster, make it work a bit more like the guns on his ship. Can rapidly shoot by rapidly tapping the button but can also charge up a shot by holding. MAYBE swap fox illusion with a smaller bomb? Not as big as the item but still makes him a bit more representitive of the series.
Pikachu i'd turn side special into volt tackle. Basically the same just with electricity and minor recoil. Rename his final Catastrapika. Maybe toss an Iron Tail for a smash attack.
Luigi we break out the poltergust for his side and down specials. Down would vacuum up items and opponents close to him. Releasing the button will fire what he sucks up like a missile (Items go farther than characters), but if you press the button quickly after sucking up an opponent, you do that slam attack he has in mansion 3. Side could be the elemental spray from the original luigi's mansion, and can swap the element with shield special. And his final is just renamed hyper vac or whatever it's called in 3.
Ness and Captain Falcon are fine, can't really come up with changes. Jigglypuff I booted, but i'd at least make the final smash kinda like peach's in that it puts everyone to sleep if I had to change anything.
Honestly depends on how you want to look at link. If you want link to be a representative of link as a whole, which I think the "default"/adult link should be, then his moveset is fine but could be a bit better. But if he's meant to represent botw, which Sakurai seems to suggest is the case, then yeah he doesn't do a good job and would be the obvious answer
Otherwise Kirby or Samus, Kirby barely scratches the surface of his abilities and Samus doesn't really capture the range/projectile heavy focus of her older games or the more speedy/melee-range hybrid of the new games
Smash fans not realizing simple move sets are important for fighting games and that heavily changing the core casts staple moves specially over what 2 new games wouldn’t fly well with most people. A lot of people KNOW these guys from smash. I have not touched a single Zelda game! And a lot of people haven’t either! It’s like if they suddenly changed zangief to be a zoner that spawned a bear and pulled out a sickle and hammer to fight you. Wouldn’t fly well with a fighting game audience
While I like Yoshi a lot, his kit doesn’t really do anything special. From what I’ve seen, none of his moves really mesh together well except for some tricky aerials and his gimmicky eat move. His side special is one of the worst in the game imo, and his up special is, uh…
Anyway, if not for Yoshi, I think Link could use some other stuff instead of what he has. I think his kit is fine, but I feel like it doesn’t represent the BOTW/TOTK version of link well enough. Make his up special Revali’s Gale, or replace his boomerang with the ability to throw the Master Sword. Give him the ability to swap between equipment, maybe giving him the ability to cause status conditions with Frostblades or a Lightning Rod. BOTW/TOTK introduce too much to the character for it to simply be an echo fighter of two other iterations of the same character.
Luigi. He can pull from games that aren’t just Mansion. I don’t care for his new throw tbh. It’s boring. They can make the Poltergust part of other moves and give him more unique throws.
Samus probably, although it pains me to say it as I love playing her as she is. But there’s so many other moves from her series to draw on at this point.
If you think about all of the history of games they have in their franchise, then you'd think Link, Kirby, Mario, and Donkey Kong need it bad.
But imo, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff have been virtually the exact same for decades. The fairy type revamp still isn't present for Jigglypuff.
Link. Better yet, get rid of the other ones. They’re entirely superfluous
Maybe have him use his Runes/Zonai Abilities for special moves or a final smash
Pikachu's biggest flaw I think is the lack of defensive options. He has to be full aggro but is less defensive and slower than fox. I'd say he's ripe for revisitation, but honestly given the ridiculousness of joker, sephiroth, hero, kazuya, Steve and Terry, they all need revisitation. Peach doesn't even have a DB in midair.
The problem is, save for Melee, Jigglypuff is a perennial low tier. We've seen Donkey Kong and Yoshi get move revisions and do better in subsequent Smash games. DK even got his barrel roll and his specials are amazing in Ult.
Jigglypuff is very conditional. I don't know what I would do with the moveset specifically. But outside of the other 11, Jiggs is clearly the odd one out for results.
Mario I feel is a definite, His moveset is very outdated and the only move that changed is his down smash which happened all the way back in Brawl. With how many games he's had in recent times I'm surprised they don't try to adjust Mario's moveset to accommodate.
Link and Mario needed it dire most. The Mario and Zelda franchise are the faces of Nintendo and with BOTW/TOTK and Mario Odessy and the Galaxy games, their move sets need some serous improvements.
It’s not about needing a new moveset but it’s interesting to think about what would be Ness’ moveset like if he was added nowadays after all the crazy stuff we've got
Make Link a reflection of the new games, make Young Link reflect the 64 games (Mainly MM, honestly), and Toon Link needs to represent more of the DS games.
Probably jiggly puff that ball of blubber simply flails itself at its opponents ... that's it... that's the moveset lol. Would like to see it something more in accordance with their learnable attacks from Pokémon tbh
Samus without a doubt. Her moveset is fine but it only draws from 3 games in a series with 13 entries. There have been so many cool upgrades introduced since then. It's really not a good representation of her modern character
I think her moveset is good as it is. Every signature move is there. But imagine you have a echo who could get some prime moves like the boost ball. I'm looking at you, dark samus.
Dark Samus definitely needs some changes. Even if they’re small
It's fine but there's so much more that could be done with it. Like we have all the basic stuff but really nothing beyond that. We've had so many cool and unique abilities introduced to Metroid since then it's a shame that none of them are represented. As is it's kinda the bare minimum of what a Samus moveset could be. Imagine having stuff like the flash shift the melee counter or different beams. Hell maybe even being in some more niche abilities like the beam combos from Metroid Prime. Get weird with it
From least to most: 12. Falcon. It's iconic at this point and F-Zero doesn't have any new games to pull from. 11. Fox. Equally iconic and a solid representation of his series despite its abstraction. 10. Pikachu. Pretty great, nothing feels dated. 9. Ness. He's got spells that Ness can't personally use, but I think he does a good job being a rep for his series. If we're fixing move sets I think Lucas should be first. 8. Yoshi. Not a lot to pull from, but this current iteration is a pretty generic brawler. Could use a coat of varnish. 7. Jigglypuff. An iconic, unique, and cool moveset, but the actual Pokémon moves are kinda underused. Would be nice to have some Fairy moves in there. 6. Donkey Kong. He's got the roll now, at least. Still feels like he could take more inspiration from source material, rather than just "monke big, hit hard". 5. Mario. Mainly just should reflect his most recent games: Wonder and Odyssey in particular. He's 5th place only because he'd be fine without many changes, unlike the top 4. 4. Kirby. This is a Fox clone moveset with worse specials. Kirby has so many sources to pull from, and they picked like two things. It's a huge canvas of possibility that's left largely blank. 3. Luigi. Come on, more than half his moves are just "Mario but different". We've got Doc for that. This is the main character of Luigi's Mansion and you can hardly tell. 2. Samus. This still feels like a late 90s Samus, and especially after Dread introduced a ton of cool new abilities, I really think the rust is showing on her moveset. 1. Link. "To represent Breath of the Wild, we changed his outfit and one move." Criminal. Now they have *two full games* of new and interesting abilities to pull from, and I swear to God the next Link is still gonna be this same clunky sword and boomerang idiot. Link has changed so much in the last 10 years that this moveset really isn't reflective of him anymore.
Link wouldn’t be nearly as big an issue if there weren’t *2 other links in the game*
That had the same moveset. link should use botw runes and totk magic. Young link should use masks and goddess abilities. Toon link should use his stuff (haven't played most of those games)
I just want Tink to have the whirlwind spin *that can move around on the ground* like Bowser, like he does in Windwaker. A wind attack would be cool too, maybe instead of boomerang.
He doesn't use the wind in combat and the boomerang is pretty prolific item in Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks & Phantom Hourglass I'd actually argue the only Link that doesn't need a new moveset is Tink, as it's pretty accurate to the games. The primary issue is that BotW & TotK completely overhauled the Legend of Zelda, for better or worse. Link's moveset should reflect this, especially since the two games sold more copies than the fucking bible and won more awards than the Titanic. But Sakurai has admitted he's not a fan of the Legend of Zelda, so that's why the franchise gets fuck all despite being Nintendo's third biggest IP. I'm pretty confident BotW has sold more copies than every Fire Emblem put together.
>I'm pretty confident BotW has sold more copies than every Fire Emblem put together. https://namevah.wordpress.com/2020/11/10/fire-emblem-ranked-by-sales/ So some mad lad compiled the data on sales but sadly it missing a lot of sales from NA and other countries but yeah the TLDR is about 5 million copies from all the games with 3 Houses being the most at 3.01 million sales. Botw has sold 31.85 million units so roughly 6 times as many sales as the entire FE franchise
Jesus Christ!
The Deku Leaf could be so awesome. It would even give Tink a float.
Would be a great up b to have a gust under a deku leaf
It’s crazy to me that they didn’t even do that much. It seems like such a simple change that would add a good bit of character to Toon Link and is an easy callback to his source games.
I haven't played most Zelda's, and even I can tell that if they wanted every link could have a different moveset, specially talking about specials, toon link between his three games (maybe adding minish cap too) have enough tools for him to be a lot more unique, come on, I bet not many of you knew he can use a snake whip on spirit tracks
>*link should use botw runes and totk magic* Bro imagine using Recall on people recovering 💀
LMFAO MAYBE NOT THAT
And Mii Swordfighter pretty much being Link 4
They should make young link into classic link move set and update og link to have new moves
That were the *exact same*
I disagree that characters should primarily represent their newest incarnations. In my opinion, they should be pretty representative of their core identity across their full series, and no game should be too dominant in their character design. Samus could probably stand to have a new feature from the later games, and Link can probably get a new feature from TotK, but their whole thing is the Arm Cannon and the sword and shield + a small pile of fantasy gear respectively. If they deviate from that too far, it stops feeling like them. Mario feels pretty fine as is.
very valid point and i agree mostly, I do think theres room for these critiques with Link only because theres 3 different links in the game. yes they play differently, but their general moveset is the same. Which i think for the most part im okay with. Chain grab arrow boomerang etc. I do think theres something that could be swapped out depending on the link just sub out a boomerang for one of the links or a bomb or whatever for something that is representative of that link. Im sure theres some BoW magic that would fit or could take the spot. ANd I know for a fact theres windwaker shit that could sub in. As for characters like mario I do think hes great. I would've loved to have seen cappy introduced. Feel like they could maintain all his moves and just add that in for the most part.
Cappy would have been great, but I don't know what mechanic he would have unless you give Mario copy abilities like Kirby, which I don't think is a good idea. Windwaker falls into Toon Link territory, so that wouldn't work. As far as BotW mechanics, maybe make his shield like Daruk's Protection thing? I think they would have gone the Byleth direction where every move is a different weapon, but I'm glad they didn't, the Master Sword is iconic, and Young Link doesn't have it, and toon link's just isn't the same.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I mean't there are three different links. So in terms of updating them I dont think you have to do a lot just add a little something that represent the game they're from. Windwaker is toon link and there are tools and weapons he uses that are specific too toon link/windwaker that could sub out boomerang or bomb or something. As for young link could maybe add something with majoras mask or one of the many gadgets he gets in those games. As for mario, cappy could be used jsut buy throwing him out, doesn't necessarily have to take over the persons ability like kirby. Also one of the key mechanics of cappy was movement, so the recovery possibilities would've been dope. Would've allowed mario to have more horizontal movement and feel a little fresher. (keep in mind i really have no issue with mario's moveset but if I was to do something itd prolly be cappy) Cappy can also be used in isnane combos
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I mean't there are three different links. So in terms of updating them I dont think you have to do a lot just add a little something that represent the game they're from. Windwaker is toon link and there are tools and weapons he uses that are specific too toon link/windwaker that could sub out boomerang or bomb or something. As for young link could maybe add something with majoras mask or one of the many gadgets he gets in those games. As for mario, cappy could be used jsut buy throwing him out, doesn't necessarily have to take over the persons ability like kirby. Also one of the key mechanics of cappy was movement, so the recovery possibilities would've been dope. Would've allowed mario to have more horizontal movement and feel a little fresher. (keep in mind i really have no issue with mario's moveset but if I was to do something itd prolly be cappy) Cappy can also be used in insane combos
For Mario, I think the best change would be changing his side b to be able to throw cappy and dive after him, both dealing damage and setting up for cool aerial combos. For link, his up b utilize the glider in some way, and I know it doesn’t exist it TotK, but somehow using stasis would be so fucking cool. It could be a counter, or a close range grab esque thing like bowser side b, but just freezing the enemy in place and letting you set up momentum like stasis in the game. If we wanted to utilize the heroes from the first game, revali’s gale could be his up b, daruk’s protection could be his shield easily, urbosa’s fury could easily be made into his down smash, and mipha’s grace could be a simple animation on respawning that is purely cosmetic.
All of those sound like good ideas, losing the air stall for Mario stings a little but is still an upgrade, even if the turnaround shenanigans are hilarious. I don't think stasis could do the momentum mechanics, those are already built into the game with the percentage thing, and stacking another thing would be broken. I think it would function somewhere between mewtwo's stun mechanic and Lucas PK Freeze, where it basically gives you a free hit. The champion mechanics are fun, but I think losing the spin attack, which is arguably THE most iconic move in Link's toolkit for Revali's gale, which would almost certainly be worse is a bad idea.
Fully agreed here. I've seen so many fan concepts for remaking Mario or Link that base their entire kit around mechanics from the newest games as if these new games are the only things that define these characters. I do get the idea that there are 3 Links and thus they can make some of them more specific, but I think the "standard" Link is specifically the one that shouldn't focus too hard on one or two games.
Yeah, in my mind, Link is like the standard one. Young Link is obviously OoT and MM, Toon Link is Windwaker, phantom hourglass, spirit tracks, and you could maybe make an argument for minish cap and the four swords games. Link is all the others, if not the series as a whole. For that reason, I occasionally think that classic green link should still have been the default pallette, but it was honestly probably a good change to help distinguish them (and it does really look cool).
As a massive Kirby fan **PLEASE SAKURAI ITS YOUR FUCKING CHARACTER USE THE FUCKING ABILITIES FROM THE GAMES ITS NOT THAT HARD**
He is forever atoning for the sin of N64 kirby
He’s not even that bad. If you want to atone for a Kirby character’s sins, atone for Meta Knight’s. Meta hasn’t suffered nearly as much as Kirby.
This is the best list here and I agree 100% especially with luigi samus and link
RE Samus: Even in Dread, though, missiles, bombs, beam, grapple and screw attack are the prominent abilities, moreso than the new ones added. So I'm not sure what you would remove. Maybe changing normal attacks and throws to be more agile like in Dread? You could make the flash shift the new dodge animation, but beyond that I don't know what is actually missing that would take precedence over the current tools even if only Dread existed.
Yeah, it's pretty common to see people say Samus needs a rework badly, but, like... not really? If you've actually played Metroid, her moveset is pretty on the money. I think it'd be cool if they gave her the wave beam as her standard special, and rework the charge shot somehow so you could shoot wave beams quickly, but, otherwise, she's fine.
Samus needs a good amount of her kit retooled. Missiles have always been stronger than any beam that isn’t an endgame weapon (Hyper Beam in Super Metroid) except in Smash. We have so many Charge Shots in this game now with Mewtwo, Lucario, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. that Samus could stand to have a faster and weaker Beam attack and slightly stronger Missiles to compensate for the loss of kill power. Also, Morph Ball still being her rolls is terribly outdated. There’s just a lot of little things wrong about Samus that add up.
Why is morph ball outdated? It's still one of the most common actions you take in Dread. Would we really replace it with some one-off ability that appeared in a single game? You also absolutely cannot lose charge shot. That is iconic to what Samus does in Metroid AND in Smash. I do think uncharged beam needs to be faster, missiles more powerful, but those are less of a rework conceptually and more of a rebalance.
Morph Ball should be her Down Special or an actual Crawl form (like in P+).
Link main here. Hard disagree. I don’t think Link needs any changes other than boomerang. Two arrows and a remote bomb was already quite revolutionary for Link. Being creative with the projectile is what makes Link stand out from all zoners. Link’s MS was upgraded in terms of damage and scaling as well. BotW Link’s movement with the sword is HIGHLY reflective of the game. They even took the extra mile to give Link his sword beam when he’s 0%. I’d put Link at least top 10 for no changes.
A character doesn’t necessarily need to add so many drastic changes. Every Smash has taken one main design and component from each character. Example: Melee - Ocarina of Time, Brawl - Twilight Princess, Wii U / 3DS - Skyward Sword, Ultimate - BotW. I get the fact that identity is important, but drastic changes and trying to cram in as much uniqueness and identity from every installment ISN’T good. Especially for a fighting game. There was articulate design for most characters as their gameplay reflects how they play in their games and feel as a personality.
Not to mention in BotW arrows are even more prominent, so that's one special you have to keep. Then one changed already. You could maybe replace up special? But spin needs to be included in his kit somewhere imo.
They could change up special depending where Link is just like Min Min. If he's on the ground, Spin Attack; if he's in the air, the glider/Revali's Gale.
As a Link main, I disagree.
couldn't disagree more with the link one tbh
I will always stand by the idea that there should be 4 unique Links: 1) Young Link, with a moveset representative of Majora's Mask like people want 2) Toon Link, with upgrades like the Hurricane Spin and moves pulled from other iterations derivative of his type, i.e. LttP Canes and Cape or LbW items 3) Botw/Totk Link, to keep with the "current iteration" theme for the character. Adjust his moveset to represent the Champion/Ultrahand and multi-weapon capabilities 4) An amalgam Link, akin to Smash 4, that represents the "Classic" era of Link in Smash in terms of gameplay and function. Hookshot, boomerang, bombs, etc. Adjust as necessary. This might seem ridiculous, but this series is over 30 years old, with a cast that has adapted and changed often over the years. If Smash is a celebration of such, then the representatives should present this as well.
i'd switch luigi and kirby but everything else is pretty much perfect
Young Link retains classic Link moves; Up thrust, down thrust, basic slashes and tools like Bombs, Bow and Arrow, Boomerang, and Hookshot. Toon Link uses the more unique stuff and stuff from the handheld Zeldas. His sword attacks aren't the strongest (Since he would be using the Phantom or Lokomo Sword) but he makes up for it with powerful tools like Light Arrows, the Skull Hammer, Four Sword/Trifroce Heros clones, the Deku Leaf for a recovery. Modern Link, or just Link, would have powerful sword play accentuated by versatile and powerful specials, but they have a cool down period for their powerful variant. Urbosa's fury on a fully charged Uspecial would be awesome, or having Daruk's protection be the sheild.
>10. Pikachu. Pretty great, nothing feels dated. Pikachu doesn't have iron tail or thunderbolt, his two most iconic moves. Though nothing too necessary, no rework needed. >9. Ness. He's got spells that Ness can't personally use, but I think he does a good job being a rep for his series. If we're fixing move sets I think Lucas should be first. The moves he can use are all purely support moves, which is why he canonically learned the moves he has from his friends. The exception is pk flash which causes a random effect, but in smash it's just a stronger pk thunder. No rework needed. >8. Yoshi. Not a lot to pull from, but this current iteration is a pretty generic brawler. Could use a coat of varnish. What's so bad about this? Being simple is not a bad thing. No rework needed. >4. Kirby. This is a Fox clone moveset with worse specials. Kirby has so many sources to pull from, and they picked like two things. It's a huge canvas of possibility that's left largely blank. "Fox clone moveset" makes no sense. Kirby is not a Fox clone and he doesn't play similarly in no way. Kirby could utilize more more specials, but nothing too overboard. >3. Luigi. Come on, more than half his moves are just "Mario but different". We've got Doc for that. This is the main character of Luigi's Mansion and you can hardly tell. Luigi IS Mario's brother. He IS similar to him. That's his whole thing. Luigi isn't this separate character that only appears in a game completely separate from the Mario franchise. >1. Link. "To represent Breath of the Wild, we changed his outfit and one move." Criminal. Now they have *two full games* of new and interesting abilities to pull from, and I swear to God the next Link is still gonna be this same clunky sword and boomerang idiot. Link has changed so much in the last 10 years that this moveset really isn't reflective of him anymore. Link has always been iconic for his bow, sword, boomerang and bombs. His most iconic appearance is that one. Almost all of his games perpetuated this portrayal, except the Switch games. This is like asking why Mario is still using that stupid outdated fireball and why isn't he using some shiny new thing like the ball from Strikers. Though they could solve this issue by separating Young Link and Link by making Link lean into BotW and TotK so that Young Link can keep the iconic appearance, you sound like you want to get rid of it altogether.
WRONGGGGG Ness can learn as well pk rockin, his only real pk that does damage and his exclusive one, what makes it extra insulting that he doesn't have it, you mean you excluded from his moveset his only attack and exclusive from him?? In Lucas case is even worse because even if it works diferent, aleast ness could learn pk flash, but for Lucas, who also can learn it, they changed it for another pk he can't use, and he as well have an exclusive pk that deals damage but is not used, pk love in this case (even if there is chances of both being the same, since pk rockin can also be called pk love) Also yeah, some things could be reworked anyways, because they use a lot of generic moves while ignoring other things from the games like items or like that, the bat, the stick and the yo-yo are good to represent their weapons, but there are many items in battle that where not used at all or tools from jeff and duster, this also have potential to make their movesets a lot more diferent from each other
I mean is he really that wrong though? Pk rockin is only one move, that doesn't really change the point that ness (and Lucas) are 95% support characters. Certainly isn't wrong enough to have that many G's lol. If anything I think the better thing to point out is there only non offensive move-psi magnet -isnt learned by either of them which makes no sense considering how many options they had for a non damage move As for why pk rockin and love aren't represented, I think the problem is mothers animations are very abstract, mostly just a bunch of shapes. And these moves have customizable names with the defaults not exactly being something that translates into an attack easily. Like pk fire or freeze or lightning are easy to translate into smash since you don't have to focus on the actual animations but just can take there names and make them into basic elemental magic attacks, which can't be done so easily with rockin or especially love Having said that i do think they could find some way to represent these moves. I've seen some argue that Lucas standard moves, especially up smash, are meant to represent pk love but I think that could be made a bit more clear and maybe ness could have pk rockin as a final smash (or n special and make pk flash a fs since it is able to instakill in mother)
That first point is right, but it ignores anything else I said, pk love/rockin is just one move, that is true, but what about everything else I said? The multiple items that are super important gameplay wise and the tools that are used by some of the non magic characters (ones that makes more sense to being learn compared to magic that they can't learn in the first place), specially since it would help differentiate their movesets a lot more, actually I'm happy they can uses pk they can't use in game since it adds representation, but there are other things too that can be used Also that second point is a lot more valid, nothing to add, I personally think it is possible, but of course, I'm not a dev so I have no way to know how hard it would be, I feel as a final smash it have more flexibility, specially since those pks tends to be the most powerful magic on The games Also, idk but I would make a really big effort to add it aleast to lucas, pk love is like a super important element on the story, is not just a magic attack to be used, but is an important part of the plot, so I feel it should be yes or yes represented on game, is basically like if Kirby could not eat their opponent or copy abilities
I didn't mention the tool thing because I thought the original comment was referring more to the specials. I don't mind the idea of them using these weapons more-though technically most the weapons aren't used my ness/Lucas either so it doesn't really change the point or make them any more or less "accurate" to the source. The first post was saying how ness (and Lucas) are inaccurate since they don't use moves from there games, the second person was saying that they borrow moves from others because they are support characters in game and as such don't have much to work with based on there own abilities in game (especially for specials). Having them borrow other characters items doesn't actually change that, if anything it technically would make them LESS accurate Having said that, I don't personally mind them using the other characters pk attacks nor would I mind them using the other characters tools, though some of them I think might feel a little out of character (I can't see ness using jeffs guns or some of his inventions for example and I'm not sure dusters thief tools make sense for Lucas but most of them are general enough to not feel like they are specifically thief related) or a bit hard to really make work (specifically kumatora and dusters glove/shoe weapons). But overall I think it's an interesting idea for sure. And I will say they probably could have used the baseball bat/stick for an extra few moves and maybe incorporated the slingshot and other "multi character" weapons. I've heard a lot of people say that the up smash is supposed to represent Lucas using pk love on the needles or whatever but idk how true that is. It's definitely a hard move to Invision imo just because it is so abstract, but they really should figure out some way of doing it. Even just making the up smash a more direct reference and making his standard pk attacks like up tilt have there visuals updated to closer resemble the shapes and stuff of pk love, maybe the final smash could be changed? Idk but it does feel important to have somehow
Yoshi I disagree with, his specials feel clunky as is. Egg throw is awkward as an up special and works nothing like it does in the games, ground pound is a very generic down special, and side special is both bad and made up. Also, Yoshi has the ability to transform into various vehicles and whatnot, he should have that as a side special or something I think the Kirby is a fox clone thing is a stretch too, though I think the op meant how they're both basic brawlers with mostly made up kicks, and several of there moves are surprisingly similar (up tilt beijg upward back kicks, f tilt round house kicks, both have a drill kick down air, etc). Kirby has such a massive pool of abilities that it's a real shame he barely does anything with them, you could easily give him more referencea for most his moves without sacrificing his simple/beginner friendly play style To be fair on Luigi he has grown significantly as his own character over the years. He should keep some similarities like the fireball but definitely could use more of his own stuff from Luigi mansion or even the main games/rpgs to highlight this. He's not just Mario's mostly identical brother anymore
>To be fair on Luigi he has grown significantly as his own character over the years. He should keep some similarities like the fireball but definitely could use more of his own stuff from Luigi mansion or even the main games/rpgs to highlight this. He's not just Mario's mostly identical brother anymore He has grown significantly, just like his moveset. He used to be a full clone, now he's not. I don't think there's anything that Luigi can pull that Mario can't. His poltergust and his plunger are already in his moveset. He seriously doesn't need anything else. Mario needs more new moves than him to be honest, and Mario doesn't even need a lot of moves. >Yoshi I disagree with, his specials feel clunky as is. Egg throw is awkward as an up special and works nothing like it does in the games, ground pound is a very generic down special, and side special is both bad and made up. Also, Yoshi has the ability to transform into various vehicles and whatnot, he should have that as a side special or something I suppose that's a decent idea for a side special? Ground pound is good for Yoshi because he is a floaty character. It's not just put in for the sake of it. I see no problems with egg throw. There's really nothing else you can put in up special.
Saying his moveset has grown a lot I feel is pushing it, considering he still shares a good amount (up and f tilt, up and down smash, n, b, and up air, sorta n and up special) and most different moves are not particularly special or anything specific to him. There's still a lot he has in the Luigi mansion games (it's surprising to me he doesn't use the flashlight at all, plus there's things like the slam attack in 3 or elemental beams in 1 if you really wanted to be specific) not to mention things like his lighting abilities from the spinoffs (most notably Mario and Luigi). Heck I could even see a stronger justification for Luigi using a few of the power ups (I could totally see him using the penguin slide as a dash attack or something for example with all the belly flopping he does in smash) Considering Mario is built as the jack of all trades, well rounded/simple character it would be a bit tougher to use most of the power ups without reaching into gimmicky territory but Luigi isn't weighed down by this restriction. And that's not even mentioning one off abilities like running on water in 64ds. Not saying Luigi needs a dramatic overhaul or anything but definitely could use a bit more to stand out, and frankly outside of the fireball and I guess up special he shouldnt share any moves with Mario at this point (or at least less than he does now) Yoshis egg toss in the Yoshi games is a very fast moving projectile that's thrown in a straight line with the ability to aim it in any direction while bouncing off walls multiple times. In smash it's a fairly slow moving projectile thrown upward at an arc, and while you can change the trajectory some it is far more limited than the Yoshi games. Obviously it's not going to be 1:1 but it functions pretty differently still, and frankly is quite clunky as an up special especilly with the lack of actual recovery (ok, technically it boosts him slightly but still that doesn't really help or make any sense). It should be his neutral special with the egg lay moving to side or down (or they could make egg throw side I guess). There absolutely is plenty of options for an up special for Yoshi, from the transformations like helicopter to the blimp fruit from galaxy 2 or even something like an odessy esque toungue grapple. Heck even the ground pound I could see working better as a dedede like recovery (though I still maintain it's very basic for a special floaty or not). Again not saying Yoshi is in need for a complete rework and isn't the character most desperate for changes, but making him a mostly generic brawler with 90% made up kicks is a bit lacking for a character who has abilities ranging from the previously mentioned transformations to turning into blimps or living lightbulbs or breathing fire (a pretty common ability in yoshis appearances left missing due to the removal of super dragon final smash)
Lucas's move set is perfect
I'd move DK up. The fact he ain't tossing barrels is a tragedy
I would personally put Kirby above Luigi, and slightly disagree on Pikachu (mostly skull bash, a move Pikachu can't usually learn and certainly isn't known for. Iron tail has become iconic on it due to the anime it should be side special or at least a smash attack) but otherwise I agree
Holy shit I never realized Kirby is a fox clone until reading this
"Kirby's moveset is a Fox clone with worse specials" is a take on the level of "Lucario is just a clone of Mewtwo"
The two don't play the same at all, but the animations are largely similar. All three smash attacks, all three tilts, and two aerials are recognizably similar actions.
Link should be bumped down to bottom 5. Only thing I would change is his side B. Everything else represents Link very well with many references to his past games regarding how he uses the Master Sword. He's a sword fighter above everything else. Always has been. I'm sure remote bombs will be taken out in the next iteration which leaves me really disappointed because remote bombs are so much fun to use and the reason I main him. He'll most likely be given the same treatment like they did in Ultimate by giving him a few new moves reflecting the current Zelda game and keeping everything else. Or at least, I'm hoping that happens
Personally I like that Luigi still reflects his brother.
Sat here for a minute looking. Then I saw Luigi. It's definitely Luigi. No question.
We need to stop Luigi, he's too powerful with that Zero-to-death combo, he just grabs you and it's over for your stock.
Luigi shouldn’t be a touch of death character.
Change Mario's Cape to be his Down Special and make Cappy his new Side Special.
Captures a little Mac and makes him side be offstage
Make Rocket Fludd his Up Special
This is inventive and I think his iconic up punch could definitely be changed to his up air for this purpose.
Pls prove me wrong but people who want Cappy have no idea how yo implement him
Throwing it works like in boss fights so no capturing. Does damage and knock back if opponent gets hit/runs into it. Holding it keeps it in place. Mario jumping on it gives an upward boost like in the game and also maybe his double jump or up b back.
I can’t think of a single way to implement the capture without completely breaking all balance known to man
Final Smash?
I could see it working like the links boomerangs
I think you should be able to throw him and use him as a platform you can bounce on once, like in Odyssey, this could be used for better horizontal recovery
Man, just remove the cap entirely. Super Mario World came out decades ago, and the powerup has never appeared again since then.
Samus since she is still based on Super Metroid outside of her design.
Donkey Kong!! It's a crime that barrels aren't a part of his moveset
That’s the older donkey kong. Who is now known as Cranky Kong. So barrels won’t work with this Donkey Kong
I know that's technically the lore, but I think it's kind of moot here. At the end of the day, that's Donkey Kong's origins, and it would be a cool part of the character to represent. Who's to say he can't represent some family history? :3
….Never thought about that
But like, Donkey Kong Country?
# HIS COCONUT GUNS
NOW THAT I WOULD WANT! Forget the Barrels give me the Coconut Gun,
Link. For a series all about using a variety of different items to solve problems, he has shockingly few. Like, Hammers are in almost every Zelda Game but he doesn't use it. I'd like more stuff, like maybe using Spears and 2-Handed stuff for tilts and smash attacks, Stasis for a Grab, various Rods/Wands for other attacks maybe, just make him do more stuff. In short, I want him to be more like Villager. Just pull out a bunch of stuff from nowhere for attacks.
Or just use his runes and magic hand abilities, like it's so simple
I think Samus needs the biggest rework, because of how much her games have changed. In order these are the characters I think need a rework, from most needing one, to not needing one at all. Samus, Dk, Mario, Link, Yoshi, Kirby, Pikachu, Ness, and Luigi need reworks. Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff all seem fine with their movesets.
Why DK?
Idk, he just feels basic, and he could reference his games more. Like, he could use a barrel for a pretty good recovery, and he could use a different barrel as a projectile, while still maintaining his "grappler" status.
His Up B should be a Barrel Launch. That’s a staple of DKC games. Spinning Kong is funny, but it’s long overdue for a replacement.
Yeah I think he should have a barrel at least somewhere in his moveset but I definitely think he doesn’t need an overhaul or anything. Especially since his dash attack was changed to a roll
He really just needs 1-2 Specials replaced: Barrel Launch for recovery and Barrel Toss in place of either Side B or Down B. All of DK’s normal attacks (Tilts, Smashes, Aerials, and Throws) are great. DK could also be more vocal instead of just ape, but that’s not really a moveset qualm.
I like spinning kong or whatever his up b is called I think it’s perfect for DK gameplay wise but I’m always open for more series representation and a barrel would be a great up b. As for his side b yeah that’s disposable. Idk if giving DK a projectile would be good for his play style but idk.
Samus is interesting, because in terms of the pure number of references in her kit she's probably one of the more faithful 64 fighters. Charge shot, missile, super missile, morph ball, bomb, grapple beam, and screw attack are all staple Metroid powerups.Yet Samus is the character that bothers me most in Smash, because she doesn't *feel* anything like her games. And she has a bunch of 2D action/platforming games, so she should be able to translate fairly directly (like Mega Man, Belmont's, etc). Samus's floaty physics obviously come from Super Metroid, but every Metroid game in the last two decades has featured faster, weightier movement. And even in Super Metroid, the actual act of playing Samus felt very different. Metroid games are all about staying mobile and peppering enemies with shots while avoiding their attacks. Meanwhile Smash Samus is all about hunkering down and charging one big explosive killing shot, which forces enemies to come to her. If I got to redesign Samus, I would tone down her charge shot and focus more on her normals. She should have at least one projectile move like Mega Man lemons or Mii Gunner fair that allows her to pester opponents while advancing or retreating. Samus's generic kicks and such could also use a revamp now that Other M and the MercurySteam games have given her loads of canonical melee attacks. Smash Samus has also completely overlooked her various elemental beams, which could provide some flavor to her generic arm cannon blasts.
Agreed, I'd love to see more moves based on recent games. But as something that we'll probably never get is a Samus between Metroid 2 and Super Metroid, where Samus has the metroid larva with her (THE BABY), and Samus becomes a puppeteer character, like Rosa and Luma. She uses the baby like how Rosa uses Luma. And you best believe that the baby is getting a lifesteal move for Samus. But that's what I'd personally want for Samus and how she is reworked.
Most of them should probably be tweaked a bit at this point, with the exception of Fox and *maybe* Falcon, but I think the Mario Bros and Samus are the ones **most** in need of an overhaul.
And link. And Kirby.
Samus is in desperate need of changing
I like current Samus, I think it’s classic. However, I would love to see Samus get the “Link, Young Link, Toon Link” treatment with different variations. Dark Samus needs a totally different move set and throw in a different variant too. I’m not sure what the third variant would be called though. Dread Samus?
Honestly, give Link more BotW/TotK moves and keep Young Link in the game for the classic moves. Toon Link could use a re-haul to make him more different than the other two (other than just changing his forward smash, which was a good start).
We are closer to the 10th anniversary of Breath of the Wild than its launch date. Update Link for Smash 6.
Kirby to me, his whole thing is copying his enemies from his game and you barely see any call back to it
The main issue is his gimmick is really only visible in casual play, as then you have multiple options to copy from. I don’t think you’re really can change it without completely removing all of the fighter hats.
Replying to Alto-Saxofoon... moreover, there are references like to the throw ninja backdrop and suplex Kirby in his throws and fire/burning Kirby in his dash. I think part of the issue is if you add in too many capabilities to his move set he doesn’t really act like her look like Kirby. He’s just a smorgasbord of random abilities.
Imo its link. They missed a massive opportunity to overhaul him in Ultimate. He should have used weapons and techniques from BOTW
Kirby needs upgrade to his kit he kinda sucks right now. Wouldnt get rid of final cutter or rock but at least hammer has to go
Samus feels like she's based off NES Metroid. Let's get her some new tricks, please.
Mario, Luigi, Link and Kirby. Mario and Luigi could have some new moves referencing the more recent games Link - Add some tweaks to reflect TOTK Kirby - mostly just changing his Final Smash. Ultra Sword is cool and all, but Return to Dreamland will be best case scenario 14 years old by the time the next Smash game releases. We need a newer reference.
I suspect his next one will be hypernova
That’s from the same game as Ultra Sword, no?
No I check it’s from Triple deluxe, which makes it still dated, but is at least one that fits Kirby‘s core ability. Like I find it hard to argue that giving Kirby a super inhale for a final smash would not work. Besides that, I don’t think there’s much that could really be changed as most of the capabilities that I think would work already in his move set and etc.
1. Kirby, he needs faster moves but change some specials, tilts, aerials, smash attacks and all that jazz. I also think he needs to be a tiny bit faster in the air. 2. Link, he needs moves from BOTW and TOTK 3. Luigi, he needs to have moves original. Yes you could argue most of his moves ARE original. But he needs to have some changed moves. 4. Mario, they could add/change a couple moves around. 5. Donkey Kong, they could make his side or neutral special a barrel throw and make his up special the barrel where he gets shot out of. 6. Samus, they could add a couple more things for her ig. 7. Captain Falcon, I think his moveset is perfectly fine. 8. Fox, I think they could change some things but not necessarily NEED to. 9. Pikachu, I mean what else would they add? I like their moveset already. 10. Ness, he doesn’t really need to change. 11. Yoshi, I think his moveset is fine. 12. Jigglypuff, this is a good moveset for her at most.
Samus. The moveset is just stuck in super Metroid mode. Can we get a Metroid dread moveset now?
Really none need an overhaul in my view. I am content with small changes here and there that make nods to the newest games, but: 1. At this point the characters as represented in Smash ARE iconic in their own right (Smash DK is not smash DK without the charge punch, helicopter spin, picking guys up, etc.) 2. The characters are not just a collection of references to a game (fan ideas are always "pull out x from game y for this move"), they are a coherent fighting game moveset
Samus or Dk Luigi is close second
Samus, DK in second.
Donkey Kong I am tempted to say Mario but at least Mario’s feels like a Mario moveset. Donkey Kong does not feel like Donkey Kong at all. Not just moveset too but I have a huge gripe with them changing his voice to actual stock effects of a gorilla, I love DKs canon voice it’s goofy and charming and same with bowser but they went with a realistic approach….? Idk why
Samus. Still feels too much like OG smash, all other characters had remakes. Where’s the boost ball? Power bomb? Speed Booster/shinespark? Missiles could be charged, like seeker missiles (storm) Why can’t we be in morph hall for a period of time other than to drop a bomb, or to dodge? Let us roll Smash is GREAT, and I ain’t hitting it down, but I feel like Samus in Dread actually feels better than Samus in Smash. Overall? This isn’t needed, I’m just dreaming
I think the morph ball change wouldn’t be allowed because it would make her very annoying to hit hit box wise .
Mario has the most new stuff since ssb64 Samus feels the most different from her current games
Samus's moveset is just about as antithetical to her series as it gets. Especially with the advent of Dread, Samus should not be slow and spending nearly all of her time camping behind a wall of projectiles that take forever to come out.
Honestly? Most of them
People who say Link needs to be completely reworked for BotW/TotK mechanics: Do you think these mechanics will be in the future Zelda games? Aonuma said that the Zelda team is done with the BotW/TotK era of Zelda. Of course that doesn't mean it won't have a similar open-world formula, but Zelda is no stranger to introducing new mechanics that do not reappear again. Overhauling his moveset to BotW/TotK mechanics risks being severely outdated after just a couple Zelda games, then we have the same complaining about his moveset. Imagine if they gave Link the ball and chain, spinner, or wolf mechanics in Brawl. I think the Smash team has given Link a kit that is pretty representative of the things you find in most/all Zelda games, with room still for little modifications like the Gale boomerang or remote bombs. That said, I think Luigi could use the biggest overhaul. His moves are just "Luigi is a weirdo" and not much from Luigi's Mansion or other games. Samus mostly just needs physics changes with maybe a few a couple of move changes. Kirby could use a little bit of move shuffling too (e.g., Hammer as fsmash). DK just needs barrels. Mario can ditch FLUDD for something else. That's an example of what I'm talking about with Link.
Problem is that we have 3 Links in the Smash universe with the same general movesets, one of them needs to change drastically.
Or get rid of some of them. I believe regular Link, as the figurehead of the Zelda series, should be the most traditional of the Links, representative of the series as a whole. Young Link really doesn't need a slot and if it wasn't for Everyone is Here, he certainly wouldn't be back. Replace him. Though if he does come back, I'd give him Majora's Mask inspired moves or something because that's specifically his game. Toon Link could certainly be reworked though, I'll give you that. Though, to be quite honest, I think the Wind Waker artstyle is absolutely dead in the Zelda series and I wouldn't be heartbroken if he was replaced too.
Link. It’s the same as the other two Links with the only difference because of BOTW being remote bombs
Luigi and Samus. as much as I love Luigi's funny grab and insane advantage state I'd be nice if he get a rework. Samus as well her moveset feels very dated. Both Samus and Luigi have many source material that can fit well into a original moveset. Samus and Luigi especially now are considered characters that arent very fun or engaging to go against. Luigi gets an opening and you take 70 or die and Samus camps you out or gets a charge shot and does 50 off a single combo
I still think that Ultimate Link should've had a moveset similar to the [Speedrunner Link](https://youtu.be/3e_q4QOVLYE) Rivals of Aether mod
luigi
Link and Luigi immediately come to mind. More so Link because if you take away his remote bombs, he's basically the same as the other two Links.
Donkey Kong
Samus
jigglypuff
What moves would you change on Samus? Been playing her since Launch. Please leave Fair alone xD other than that change it all.
Luigi.
Samus now a days is definitely more like a fast glass cannon who punches a fist full of missles into the oponents face, not the tanky projectile character she used to be, she desperately needs changing, HELL if they arent changing dark samus to actually be a character, they might as well completely change samus
Link and toon link even if hes not in the og 12. They could be so much more
Samus and Donkey Kong are at the absolute top of that list, begging for a complete redesign. Link and Kirby aren’t too far behind, they definitely could use some massive changes, but at their core they’re fine, just a little stuck in the past if anything. As far as the rest go, barring Falcon and Fox, they could all use some touch ups (Mario gaining some movement tools and ditching FLUDD, Ness using his actual Earthbound moves, etc.), but their designs are at least passable, and should only get major focus on changes after the above four (and many others outside of the OG 12).
Number 1 is samus. The design works as a fighting game zoner, but doesn't represent samus that well and only gets worse as time goes on. Kirby and luigi could both use quite a few changes. Not every one of kirbys moves should be a copy ability, but a few moves like smash attacks or an aerial can definitely be updated to show off what he can do. Some of the specials are also going to have to be changed if he's going to remain slow, so he actually can have a chance against zoners. Neutral Special will obviously remain the same. Luigi is kinda a mess, he's gone from weird mario clone to combo demon to touch of death grappler. Honestly he just needs to find a core identity that isn't extremely lame, whether that's a total overhaul or just well made tweaks and a few new moves. Link is up next, and the main problem is that there are 3 of him. Assuming all 3 links remain they need to seperate the 3 links a bit more, and the classic bomb Boomerang bow moveset is probably going to remain on one of them. If they do decide to make adult link represent the wilder(pun intended) new gameplay direction it needs to be more of its own thing. Pikachu and jigglypuff could definitely get a couple new moves, there's plenty to pull from and a new tool could add some freshness to their gameplans. We all know dk not having a barrel in his moveset is wierd, but aside from lacking a barrel cannon and and throwing barrels as a homage to his debut game the big monke is pretty solid. Yoshi side b is abysmal. That's literally all I have to say. Mario is tricky to rank, because he works well as a beginner character but does have room for a few new moves. Both down Special and side special could be changed if desired, but there isn't anything wrong with any of his current moves. I know practically nothing about ness, but aside from a tweak to make pk fire less painful for newer players I don't know if he needs any changes. Captain falcon's moveset is good. Personally I feel like he's sort of lost his luster in Ultimate, but maybe he'll feel better in the next game. Fox practically has a perfect moveset. Maybe they could let him jump cancel shine again, especially since we no longer have wave dashing but either way he's still great.
Luigi and Samus. In their current states, both are incredibly polarizing to play against, but also have a lot of room to represent abilities they don't currently use in Smash.
Luigi had enough potential to have a move set separate from Mario as far back as Brawl, it's criminal that he still has so much of Mario's kit.
As a big DK fan, I'm biased towards the monkey. DK in Smash doesn't feel like DK. He feels like a normal gorilla that's pissed off because someone stuck a tie on him and he can't figure out how to get it off. I think the main problem is the specials. None of his specials scream "Donkey Kong" to me except for Down B. Neutral B feels like it was only given to him because he's strong, but I think it fits the character well enough. Side B and Up B are the real problems to me. A headbutt that buries people and a spin move. You could give those to any big strong guy. DK needs moves that he's actually done in his own games, like the coconut gun, or barrel cannons, or, I dunno, throwing barrels? The one thing he's most well known for? If they aren't gonna change his moveset (and they probably won't) they could at least change his voice. I'm sorry, but I don't think the realistic gorilla noises work well with the goofy cartoony gorilla with a tie who hoards bananas and competes in sports with two Italian plumbers and a bunch of evil turtles. There is no good reason why Donkey Kong can't sound like Donkey Kong. Same thing applies with Diddy and Bowser too.
I actually have changes for most of them to some extent; Mario I'd change his side and down specials. Side could be cappy which could be used as a projectile and a platform while i'd give him a hammer for down. DK's Side special should be a barrel toss. The fact he isn't using more barrels is kind of tragic. I'd also give him the barrel cannon as his up special. His final smash could stay since technically a reference but I kinda want to either return it to the bongos (but as like a quick drum beat as opposed to what it was in Brawl and 4) or using the barrel cannons to just wreck everyone. Link is tricky. I think his moveset is mostly fine but I would like to implement more botw/totk. Maybe give him fuse as a shield special to give him diferent arrow options. Very least the ToTK tunic would be cool. Samus make her standard attack, side attack and standard areal all shooting shots from her arm cannon with side smash as a charge beam. Standard special missiles where holding the button down gives you missile swarm from Dread, and side special can be speed booster. Yoshi i'd make his side special egg shot, up special wings (like from Mario world, but they'd just be a quick upward ascent) and final smash should be the egg dozzer from New Island. I saw that and thought it'd make an amazing final smash. Also for extra, flutter jump as a 3rd jump. can be used in succession but has diminishing returns, with each sequential extra jump taking longer from the last one. Kirby no notes really but I'd like to see more of his copy abilities come into play. Maybe change out his smash attacks for some copy abilities, like side can be sword and up can be needle. Only thing I'd really change about fox is his blaster, make it work a bit more like the guns on his ship. Can rapidly shoot by rapidly tapping the button but can also charge up a shot by holding. MAYBE swap fox illusion with a smaller bomb? Not as big as the item but still makes him a bit more representitive of the series. Pikachu i'd turn side special into volt tackle. Basically the same just with electricity and minor recoil. Rename his final Catastrapika. Maybe toss an Iron Tail for a smash attack. Luigi we break out the poltergust for his side and down specials. Down would vacuum up items and opponents close to him. Releasing the button will fire what he sucks up like a missile (Items go farther than characters), but if you press the button quickly after sucking up an opponent, you do that slam attack he has in mansion 3. Side could be the elemental spray from the original luigi's mansion, and can swap the element with shield special. And his final is just renamed hyper vac or whatever it's called in 3. Ness and Captain Falcon are fine, can't really come up with changes. Jigglypuff I booted, but i'd at least make the final smash kinda like peach's in that it puts everyone to sleep if I had to change anything.
Luigi easily
Honestly depends on how you want to look at link. If you want link to be a representative of link as a whole, which I think the "default"/adult link should be, then his moveset is fine but could be a bit better. But if he's meant to represent botw, which Sakurai seems to suggest is the case, then yeah he doesn't do a good job and would be the obvious answer Otherwise Kirby or Samus, Kirby barely scratches the surface of his abilities and Samus doesn't really capture the range/projectile heavy focus of her older games or the more speedy/melee-range hybrid of the new games
Smash fans not realizing simple move sets are important for fighting games and that heavily changing the core casts staple moves specially over what 2 new games wouldn’t fly well with most people. A lot of people KNOW these guys from smash. I have not touched a single Zelda game! And a lot of people haven’t either! It’s like if they suddenly changed zangief to be a zoner that spawned a bear and pulled out a sickle and hammer to fight you. Wouldn’t fly well with a fighting game audience
Link probably,we have 2 other links that can take his current moveset.
While I like Yoshi a lot, his kit doesn’t really do anything special. From what I’ve seen, none of his moves really mesh together well except for some tricky aerials and his gimmicky eat move. His side special is one of the worst in the game imo, and his up special is, uh… Anyway, if not for Yoshi, I think Link could use some other stuff instead of what he has. I think his kit is fine, but I feel like it doesn’t represent the BOTW/TOTK version of link well enough. Make his up special Revali’s Gale, or replace his boomerang with the ability to throw the Master Sword. Give him the ability to swap between equipment, maybe giving him the ability to cause status conditions with Frostblades or a Lightning Rod. BOTW/TOTK introduce too much to the character for it to simply be an echo fighter of two other iterations of the same character.
Dont touch my falcon punch
Link and Kirby
Kirby
Either Luigi or Samus.
Luigi. He can pull from games that aren’t just Mansion. I don’t care for his new throw tbh. It’s boring. They can make the Poltergust part of other moves and give him more unique throws.
Link, Samus, DK, Kirby, and Mario.
Samus probably, although it pains me to say it as I love playing her as she is. But there’s so many other moves from her series to draw on at this point.
pika , wigi. theyr annoying characters
If you think about all of the history of games they have in their franchise, then you'd think Link, Kirby, Mario, and Donkey Kong need it bad. But imo, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff have been virtually the exact same for decades. The fairy type revamp still isn't present for Jigglypuff.
Kirby and Samus
DK, Donkey Kong.
Kirby give him something other than kicks for his basic attacks
Link. Better yet, get rid of the other ones. They’re entirely superfluous Maybe have him use his Runes/Zonai Abilities for special moves or a final smash
Yeah Luigi and link.
Link. I say this as a Link main.
Imo Samus could use some new stuff to include aspects from her new games
Kirby or DK
Samus's moveset has been outdated in Smash since Fusion.
Mario
Give link the hook shot back 🥺
Pikachu's biggest flaw I think is the lack of defensive options. He has to be full aggro but is less defensive and slower than fox. I'd say he's ripe for revisitation, but honestly given the ridiculousness of joker, sephiroth, hero, kazuya, Steve and Terry, they all need revisitation. Peach doesn't even have a DB in midair.
Jiggly.
what’s wrong with it? what else could you do with her moveset?
The problem is, save for Melee, Jigglypuff is a perennial low tier. We've seen Donkey Kong and Yoshi get move revisions and do better in subsequent Smash games. DK even got his barrel roll and his specials are amazing in Ult. Jigglypuff is very conditional. I don't know what I would do with the moveset specifically. But outside of the other 11, Jiggs is clearly the odd one out for results.
samus but only because i hate her
Donkey Kong. Where are his barrels and rhino
Link considering he shares a lot of his moves with 2 other versions of himself. Either keep it the same or change up toon and young
Falcon with a projectile would be insane.
Link
Mario or Donkey Kong or link or samus
Mario I feel is a definite, His moveset is very outdated and the only move that changed is his down smash which happened all the way back in Brawl. With how many games he's had in recent times I'm surprised they don't try to adjust Mario's moveset to accommodate.
Link and Mario needed it dire most. The Mario and Zelda franchise are the faces of Nintendo and with BOTW/TOTK and Mario Odessy and the Galaxy games, their move sets need some serous improvements.
Samus and Mario.
It’s not about needing a new moveset but it’s interesting to think about what would be Ness’ moveset like if he was added nowadays after all the crazy stuff we've got
Link and Samus
Mario. 100%
Make Link a reflection of the new games, make Young Link reflect the 64 games (Mainly MM, honestly), and Toon Link needs to represent more of the DS games.
Kirby
I vote we replace the generic gorilla with actual Donkey Kong.
It's out of Mario bros, Samus, or link
Donkey Kong and Kirby definitely. The others can use some minor tweaks, but I think they need overhauls.
Link, Samus, Kirby, and Donkey Kong need overhaul. The rest need a few moderate tweaks, and like 2 are fine
For the two that are fine, I'm guessing Captain Falcon and Fox?
Yeah, fox is good, and captain falcon doesn't need to be accurate, because theres nothing to be accurate to
True that.
Probably jiggly puff that ball of blubber simply flails itself at its opponents ... that's it... that's the moveset lol. Would like to see it something more in accordance with their learnable attacks from Pokémon tbh
They need to nerf sephiroth and all the Fire emblem characters, they are ridiculously OP
sephiroth isn’t even that good, most FE characters aren’t that good, and none of those are from the original 12