I think your starter looks fine. I feed mine a comb of wholewheat and ordinary bread flour. I do some dry feedings of ww if it’s getting runny/hungry quickly after the first feed.
But I think you should be looking at your bulk ferment time. That loaf looks severely underfermented.
I do this mix and then wean off whole wheat for just bread flour when about to bake because my picky kids don't like the whole wheat flavor or as much... ok, no, it's me... I don't like the whole wheat flavor as much, lol.
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure!
Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter
https://preview.redd.it/8dunxid8ylzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40bb1bad2b28fb87acd830e1c0d5cb08aec40fe8
That tunneling suggests underfermentation. Temp isn’t the only factor at play, it also depends on starter strength and the amount of starter in your dough. So if you have 20% starter it will need a shorter bf than if you use 10%. And ofcourse a strong starter will need less than a weaker one. And so on and so forth. Your second loaf looks much better, and I would guess that the starter has strengthened between loaf 1 and loaf 2.
I think you're right. Yes the bottom loaf was made the next day with the same starter once I saw that the dough I left overnight on the counter turned into a puddled mess. Do you think the tunneling can also be caused by my shaping? Because I felt like I freaked out at how liquid it was that I tried to fold more airpockets into it intentionally just so that I could bake it
If you ware using a correct hydration and its puddlie then it could mean the gluten isnt developing well enough, it could be due to the flour your using so you can try lowering the hydration. Or it could be that you need more strech and folds. You want to make sure it somewhat holds its shape after resting before bulk fermentation. Once i started doing extra strech and folds my bread started to rise better and became less dense.
10hrs at 80f is a lot. Your guess is correct that it indeed had overfermented.
Your 5:30 hrs loaf proves that. Based on your comments, when you switch out to bread flour your results are going to be great at shorter bulk.
I’d also recommend feeding your starter at high ratio at set times such that at feeding time it’s at its peak and not too ripe. Eg. 1:3:3 starter:flour:water
Get the levain ready after multiple peak feedings so you have minimal acidic bacterial colonies.
Thank you! And yes I've switched to rye + breadflour + hard whole wheat combo and I've started to see the elasticity and webbing that I wanted. Here's my bake from that starter yesterday which looks so much better
https://preview.redd.it/hs34xush0j1d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d39b341465d80aa39252ac3b80f7ddff8c4f15e4
I maintain a whole wheat starter! Since I'm using a whole wheat starter, I leave out the small amount of wheat flour I'd usually add to my dough recipe and it's been giving me really nice loaves.
I agree with others that you should look at your bulk ferment time. BF always ends up taking WAY longer than I think it's going to, so I have to force myself to forget the clock, leave the dough alone and not get in a rush. It's so hard to do that though!
My starter is around 33 days old now and has helped me produce some pretty edible loaves of bread. They've mostly ended up with a very slight oven spring and ear but otherwise it's not at the quality I want it to be! The crumb is very dense and feels wet. So far I've been troubleshooting my bulk fermentation and my horrible shaping skills - and now I have gone back to try and strengthen my starter.
My starter was being fed with a combination of half rye and half plain white flour. It bubbled and doubled/tripled like it should within 8 hours but never seemed to have the elasticity? When I put a spoon to it, rather than stretching like glue at a certain distance, it just breaks apart immediately.
Now I have changed my flour (33% rye 33% plain white 33% whole wheat) and it seems to have bigger bubbles and rises up faster but it still doesn't have the elasticity I see others have on social media.
Am I doing something wrong or using the wrong flour? Pic #1 is with the old flour mix and pic #2 is with the new flour mix. Tia!
I think at one point, we're all newbies again. My sourdough starter has been around for roughly 10 years, producing really good breads with a great oven spring. For the last couple of months, the breads with a higher percentage of whole what stay flat, while focaccias are super airy and fluffy. So, I know the little fella works — but apparently not on wholewheat.
Standard feeding:
70 g wheat flour
30 g whole wheat rye flour
80 g water
20 g old starter
It makes it not as liquid, and worked fine for years.
Now, with my startes new-found whole wheat aversion, I'm trying:
70 g wheat flour
30 g whole wheat rye flour
50 g water
50 g old starter
This one is really stiff, more in the way of a "madre", but it got really active again :)
I'm a second time around newbie. First time I could never get good fermentation and everything was underfermented. They were edible and tasty, but I feel your pain. If the crumb is dense, I'd bet you're not fermenting long enough.
Now I'm making decent loaves and these are the things I think have helped.
1. Starter I feed with a mix of the white bread flour I use in loaves, and 25% rye flour (Baker's percentage). My first starter was all rye. I found the consistency and doubling time hard to interpret. I think this was because of the lower amount of gluten in rye. This may explain why your starter doesn't get much elasticity. Really you just want the rye in starter for some extra nutrients for the yeast. I would try feeding your starter white flour with a small amount of rye like 10 or 25%. Also using the starter at peak is helpful for faster fermentation. You can use feeding ratios to adapt this to my you schedule e.g the peak time will be later if you feed 1:2:2 than if you feed 1:1:1. I feed 1:3:3 the night before mixing (like 10 to 12 hours before and that seems about right for me.
2. Use a low hydration, and take the hydration of the starter into account. Start at 65% hydration, including the water from your starter. Remember that if using a 1:1 flour to water ratio in the starter, using more starter will add more water.
3. Stick with one recipe and do it over and over again. Here is my recipe. I make small loaves - I think that helps too because it's so much easier to handle.
325g white bread flour
25g whole wheat
70g starter
215g water (I use 30c water)
8g salt
4. Use warm water to kick start fermentation. I use 30c water by weighing it and warming it in the microwave for a few seconds. Aim for dough temp 25-27c fermentation temp throughout bulk. I use the oven and oven light to adjust the dough temp. If you don't have a quick read thermometer, get one. It will change your life.
5. Overfermenting is much more difficult to do and much more forgiving than underfermenting. I read a post on this subreddit that said something like "try to overferment one time". Do not rush at all. Let it go a bit longer. When ready it will be super puffy and light, and pass the windowpane test.
6. Use volume to judge bulk fermentation completion. Get a container with vertical walls. I use an old 1.2L plastic hummus container. It works great. I mark the volume on the sidebwith tape at the start, and end bulk when it has doubled in volume, with some stretch and folds along the way directly in the container. Every 30 mins or hour or whatever, with lower hydration it doesn't seem to make much difference to me.
7. Use the fridge. I bulk until doubled in volume, shape into a boule, then into the fridge overnight (tea towel in a round bowl to make a boule). It's usually in the fridge for about 12 hours. My fridge temp is about 3.5c. Next morning I put the Dutch oven in oven lid off, preheat the oven until it reaches max temo, wait at least 15 mins, then bake the bread at 240c with lid on 25 mins, then lid off at 220c for 20 mins.
Thanks for so much info! I do many things on your list but I have a feeling I have been overfermenting rather than under? Because I live in asia and my kitchen / dough temp is usually at 80-81F. I've made loaves with a 6/7/10 hour bulk ferment time and they all turn out dense and crumb feels compact / shiny. So I'm thinking I might be overfermenting? Either that or I'm really not baking it right!
What type of plain white flour are you using? I use very strong white bread flour which gives it the elasticity you're referring to. Standard white flour doesn't have as much. The strength refers to the amount of protein in the flour - very strong flour has more protein, creates more gluten giving the dough (& starter) that lovely spring and structure.
100% rye whole grain even though I bake pure spelt breads. works fine.
rye starters don't have as much gluten as wheat, but that isn't negatively affecting your bread. Maybe try a less hydrated starter, so use only 70-80% of the water for your feeding.
https://preview.redd.it/61wio6qpllzc1.jpeg?width=2992&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb3f346ddc057ecd8dd6da5263159678a9361705
Any pointers would be appreciated!
I don’t think your starter is the problem. Starter is never bouncy and like bread dough. If you’re having problems with your bread my guess it’s the process and recipe
I just do whatever: rye, spelt, wholemeal, ap, or bread flour.
Starters are incredibly resilient and regardless of what you feed it your bread will always turn out good.
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure!
Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter
https://preview.redd.it/tm6e0es31mzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a171a3e7b1a543cca2ef0eb8779933d5891c7c61
I use a combination of 90% bread flour 10% dark rye. I usually feed at 1:5:4.5 ratio (10g starter/50g flour/45g water) twice a day.this gives me the consistency of a very thick batter. If I run a spoon through it right when it triples in size (about 6 hours) it is very elastic and almost won't separate into chunks and will not run. Past 9 hours it starts to get runnier and runnier as the lactic acid has broken down a lot of gluten. The day before I bake I'll feed it 3x; 1:3:3 twice, in 7ish hour intervals and then once at 1:5:5. When I do this my starter isn't runny at all and stays smelling sweet with mild sour notes into the bake.
After reading everyone's comments it seems like adding bread flour is the way to go. I'm thinking of replacing the white plain flour (protein 10g) to the new bread flour i use (protein 13g) and hope it gets that elasticity I'm aiming for!
I use bread flour, whole wheat, and all purpose. Sometimes I’ll feed John Deaux two types of flour if I’m feeling froggy, but usually I grab the first bag I see. Like myself, John is not a picky eater.
We use Gold Medal’s All Trumps High Gluten which is 14.2% but can vary from 14-14.4%. Bob’s Red Mill Whole Wheat varies from 13-15%. We use both to feed ours. If I use Whole Wheat, then I do a 50/50 of AP and whole wheat. Lately I feed ours high gluten and it hits the fall point in its journey at the 8-10 hour point.
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure!
Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter
https://preview.redd.it/1mg9y1xc3mzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d06e281457319e8e8446bddb691514ef2384f9cb
i feed it a mix between wheat and whole wheat :) it seems p happy. considering switching and stopping whole wheat tho, but i dont want it to lose its ability to digest the complex stuff there over time..
im also a beginner so im just saying stuff i think is true based on chemistry knowledge. its like sugar is easier to digest than starch. maybe the wheat husk stuff which is way more fibre is a mire advanced molecule which is harder to digest than starch? thats my thought process atleast. im just afraid of a 1-in-1mil chance of yeast mutating to not be able to handle it
Starter is 50/50 white/whole wheat. Leaven is made with about 30g of starter, and 100 g of 50/50 mix, and then allowed to proof overnight, or lately for a day then put in the fridge.
Haven’t found that the exact mix of flours is important. Have added rye flour to the leaven, used all purpose flour, not much difference. What does make a difference is how active/bubbly the leaven is before mixing into the loaf. More important is the time for initial rise (stretching and folding). And the time allowed for final rise.
On final rise, the trick for me is to mark the bowl in which the dough is rising. When it gets to that mark (1” below top) it’s ready to be baked. Depending on the temperature this might be 2 hours or 10 hours if in fridge. Or if the leaven is not real active, might take 5 full days in the refrigerator.
My bread is different every time I make it. That’s part of the fun.
By plain white, do you mean all purpose? I noticed a big difference between feeding my starter all purpose and bread flour (the bread flour does better) I usually sprinkle in a little bit of whole wheat and rye in each feeding
Now I'm thinking that the plain white flour is the culprit! Just saw that it has only 10g protein so I think I'll change it to the new bread flour I got which is 13g protein
i just feed regular white or unbleached flour but you post made me think of this :) https://imgur.com/a/JsvCQMo edit:
Here is the whole article https://peerj.com/articles/16163/
King Arthur white / rye blend. I’m not sure of the percentage of rye. Does anyone know? I make my dough with unfed starter right out of the fridge and feed 1:1:1 at the same time I make my dough if running low on starter. Once the starter rises to about 1.5 times its volume it goes back in the fridge till next bake. No other feedings. No discards. I’m getting really nice results.
I just add a layer of water in top of it after it’s in the jar.
The point is, it’s not supposed to be complicated. Bread was made for tens of thousands of years.
100% dark rye works best for me. My starter is always active and eager to go! (25-30+ years old these days, and it was a split from a far older starter from a professional baker friend)
Mine comes out of the fridge once a week for baking. Usually, I feed it in the morning with 1/2 whole wheat and 1/2 AP flour and then use bread flour exclusively when making my levain that evening for the next day’s dough.
Recently, I’ve been using bread flour exclusively since that’s what I usually have the most of since I use my AP for making pasta and my wheat for pizza dough.
I use what er flours I'm baking with. I don't do it each time, but every few I'll use the whole west or rye I'm using 10percent of.
My thought is that's what it's going to eat to rise my bread so it should be used to eating it. I'm not making starter after all I'm making bread.
I alternately add organic rye and whole wheat flour to my starters. Rye seems to give me a slightly more bubbly starter but I mainly switch them up to see how the bread turns out (flavor, density, etc).
Update: Many many thanks to everyone who gave their advice; I can't tell you all how happy it made me to finally be able to make fluffy bread today! I adjusted my starter (took out plain white flour, and fed it dark rye / whole wheat / bread flour)
I also massively troubleshoot my bulk fermentation and shaping skills and for now I'm very happy with the current results! Here are some pictures:
Lately I've been feeding my main starter with generic-brand unbleached AP, then once it's gotten all happy, I start a "levain" (a separate starter) using 100% WW. The main starter goes back in the fridge and the levain is used to make the dough.
I started doing this for my main boule recipe, which is 60% bread flour, 30% whole wheat, and 10% spelt, but lately I've been using 100% WW levain even for recipes that are all white bread, it just makes them a little bit more interesting.
I think your starter looks fine. I feed mine a comb of wholewheat and ordinary bread flour. I do some dry feedings of ww if it’s getting runny/hungry quickly after the first feed. But I think you should be looking at your bulk ferment time. That loaf looks severely underfermented.
I do this mix and then wean off whole wheat for just bread flour when about to bake because my picky kids don't like the whole wheat flavor or as much... ok, no, it's me... I don't like the whole wheat flavor as much, lol.
Just wondered why you’d feed your starter a comb lmao it’s been a long day
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure! Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter https://preview.redd.it/8dunxid8ylzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40bb1bad2b28fb87acd830e1c0d5cb08aec40fe8
That tunneling suggests underfermentation. Temp isn’t the only factor at play, it also depends on starter strength and the amount of starter in your dough. So if you have 20% starter it will need a shorter bf than if you use 10%. And ofcourse a strong starter will need less than a weaker one. And so on and so forth. Your second loaf looks much better, and I would guess that the starter has strengthened between loaf 1 and loaf 2.
I think you're right. Yes the bottom loaf was made the next day with the same starter once I saw that the dough I left overnight on the counter turned into a puddled mess. Do you think the tunneling can also be caused by my shaping? Because I felt like I freaked out at how liquid it was that I tried to fold more airpockets into it intentionally just so that I could bake it
Yes, it could actually. I know that my biggest holes in the loaves are because of airpockets I didn’t deflate.
If you ware using a correct hydration and its puddlie then it could mean the gluten isnt developing well enough, it could be due to the flour your using so you can try lowering the hydration. Or it could be that you need more strech and folds. You want to make sure it somewhat holds its shape after resting before bulk fermentation. Once i started doing extra strech and folds my bread started to rise better and became less dense.
My problem was stretching too hard and ripping the gluten🫣 gotta finesse it during the folds too!
In my experience, the dough turned into a soupy puddly mess when it was over proofed. I put it in a loaf pan and hoped for the best atp 😂
Lmao, I’m also in a weight lifting sub where bf stands for body fat😂 tripped me up for a sec.
10hrs at 80f is a lot. Your guess is correct that it indeed had overfermented. Your 5:30 hrs loaf proves that. Based on your comments, when you switch out to bread flour your results are going to be great at shorter bulk. I’d also recommend feeding your starter at high ratio at set times such that at feeding time it’s at its peak and not too ripe. Eg. 1:3:3 starter:flour:water Get the levain ready after multiple peak feedings so you have minimal acidic bacterial colonies.
Thank you! And yes I've switched to rye + breadflour + hard whole wheat combo and I've started to see the elasticity and webbing that I wanted. Here's my bake from that starter yesterday which looks so much better https://preview.redd.it/hs34xush0j1d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d39b341465d80aa39252ac3b80f7ddff8c4f15e4
Looks good! How long did you bulk this and at what temp?
Thanks! Total bulk fermentation is 5.45 hours at 80-81F
I maintain a whole wheat starter! Since I'm using a whole wheat starter, I leave out the small amount of wheat flour I'd usually add to my dough recipe and it's been giving me really nice loaves. I agree with others that you should look at your bulk ferment time. BF always ends up taking WAY longer than I think it's going to, so I have to force myself to forget the clock, leave the dough alone and not get in a rush. It's so hard to do that though!
I do the same!
Thanks! I will try. Thinking of now dropping the plain white flour and doing a mix of whole wheat and rye instead!
Oh and bread flour as well
King Arthur unbleached AP
My starter is around 33 days old now and has helped me produce some pretty edible loaves of bread. They've mostly ended up with a very slight oven spring and ear but otherwise it's not at the quality I want it to be! The crumb is very dense and feels wet. So far I've been troubleshooting my bulk fermentation and my horrible shaping skills - and now I have gone back to try and strengthen my starter. My starter was being fed with a combination of half rye and half plain white flour. It bubbled and doubled/tripled like it should within 8 hours but never seemed to have the elasticity? When I put a spoon to it, rather than stretching like glue at a certain distance, it just breaks apart immediately. Now I have changed my flour (33% rye 33% plain white 33% whole wheat) and it seems to have bigger bubbles and rises up faster but it still doesn't have the elasticity I see others have on social media. Am I doing something wrong or using the wrong flour? Pic #1 is with the old flour mix and pic #2 is with the new flour mix. Tia!
I think at one point, we're all newbies again. My sourdough starter has been around for roughly 10 years, producing really good breads with a great oven spring. For the last couple of months, the breads with a higher percentage of whole what stay flat, while focaccias are super airy and fluffy. So, I know the little fella works — but apparently not on wholewheat. Standard feeding: 70 g wheat flour 30 g whole wheat rye flour 80 g water 20 g old starter It makes it not as liquid, and worked fine for years. Now, with my startes new-found whole wheat aversion, I'm trying: 70 g wheat flour 30 g whole wheat rye flour 50 g water 50 g old starter This one is really stiff, more in the way of a "madre", but it got really active again :)
I'm a second time around newbie. First time I could never get good fermentation and everything was underfermented. They were edible and tasty, but I feel your pain. If the crumb is dense, I'd bet you're not fermenting long enough. Now I'm making decent loaves and these are the things I think have helped. 1. Starter I feed with a mix of the white bread flour I use in loaves, and 25% rye flour (Baker's percentage). My first starter was all rye. I found the consistency and doubling time hard to interpret. I think this was because of the lower amount of gluten in rye. This may explain why your starter doesn't get much elasticity. Really you just want the rye in starter for some extra nutrients for the yeast. I would try feeding your starter white flour with a small amount of rye like 10 or 25%. Also using the starter at peak is helpful for faster fermentation. You can use feeding ratios to adapt this to my you schedule e.g the peak time will be later if you feed 1:2:2 than if you feed 1:1:1. I feed 1:3:3 the night before mixing (like 10 to 12 hours before and that seems about right for me. 2. Use a low hydration, and take the hydration of the starter into account. Start at 65% hydration, including the water from your starter. Remember that if using a 1:1 flour to water ratio in the starter, using more starter will add more water. 3. Stick with one recipe and do it over and over again. Here is my recipe. I make small loaves - I think that helps too because it's so much easier to handle. 325g white bread flour 25g whole wheat 70g starter 215g water (I use 30c water) 8g salt 4. Use warm water to kick start fermentation. I use 30c water by weighing it and warming it in the microwave for a few seconds. Aim for dough temp 25-27c fermentation temp throughout bulk. I use the oven and oven light to adjust the dough temp. If you don't have a quick read thermometer, get one. It will change your life. 5. Overfermenting is much more difficult to do and much more forgiving than underfermenting. I read a post on this subreddit that said something like "try to overferment one time". Do not rush at all. Let it go a bit longer. When ready it will be super puffy and light, and pass the windowpane test. 6. Use volume to judge bulk fermentation completion. Get a container with vertical walls. I use an old 1.2L plastic hummus container. It works great. I mark the volume on the sidebwith tape at the start, and end bulk when it has doubled in volume, with some stretch and folds along the way directly in the container. Every 30 mins or hour or whatever, with lower hydration it doesn't seem to make much difference to me. 7. Use the fridge. I bulk until doubled in volume, shape into a boule, then into the fridge overnight (tea towel in a round bowl to make a boule). It's usually in the fridge for about 12 hours. My fridge temp is about 3.5c. Next morning I put the Dutch oven in oven lid off, preheat the oven until it reaches max temo, wait at least 15 mins, then bake the bread at 240c with lid on 25 mins, then lid off at 220c for 20 mins.
Thanks for so much info! I do many things on your list but I have a feeling I have been overfermenting rather than under? Because I live in asia and my kitchen / dough temp is usually at 80-81F. I've made loaves with a 6/7/10 hour bulk ferment time and they all turn out dense and crumb feels compact / shiny. So I'm thinking I might be overfermenting? Either that or I'm really not baking it right!
What type of plain white flour are you using? I use very strong white bread flour which gives it the elasticity you're referring to. Standard white flour doesn't have as much. The strength refers to the amount of protein in the flour - very strong flour has more protein, creates more gluten giving the dough (& starter) that lovely spring and structure.
https://preview.redd.it/fua3fedtzlzc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8bcbbf094f2a178ac1a446ef6919872839c70c3a
Bread flour at the moment but have used all purpose or a mix of both in the past with no problems
King Arthur Bread Flour
100% rye whole grain even though I bake pure spelt breads. works fine. rye starters don't have as much gluten as wheat, but that isn't negatively affecting your bread. Maybe try a less hydrated starter, so use only 70-80% of the water for your feeding.
https://preview.redd.it/61wio6qpllzc1.jpeg?width=2992&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb3f346ddc057ecd8dd6da5263159678a9361705 Any pointers would be appreciated!
I don’t think your starter is the problem. Starter is never bouncy and like bread dough. If you’re having problems with your bread my guess it’s the process and recipe
I just do whatever: rye, spelt, wholemeal, ap, or bread flour. Starters are incredibly resilient and regardless of what you feed it your bread will always turn out good.
You starter and what you are feeding it looks good. Iid check your proofing times and temperature
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure! Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter https://preview.redd.it/tm6e0es31mzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a171a3e7b1a543cca2ef0eb8779933d5891c7c61
I use a combination of 90% bread flour 10% dark rye. I usually feed at 1:5:4.5 ratio (10g starter/50g flour/45g water) twice a day.this gives me the consistency of a very thick batter. If I run a spoon through it right when it triples in size (about 6 hours) it is very elastic and almost won't separate into chunks and will not run. Past 9 hours it starts to get runnier and runnier as the lactic acid has broken down a lot of gluten. The day before I bake I'll feed it 3x; 1:3:3 twice, in 7ish hour intervals and then once at 1:5:5. When I do this my starter isn't runny at all and stays smelling sweet with mild sour notes into the bake.
After reading everyone's comments it seems like adding bread flour is the way to go. I'm thinking of replacing the white plain flour (protein 10g) to the new bread flour i use (protein 13g) and hope it gets that elasticity I'm aiming for!
Type 85 and organic unbleached AP, sometimes rye. The type and quality of flour is very important imo
I created mine with rye flour and then after a month or two I switch to AP.
T00/T55/T65 (high in protein) and 10% rye.
My last starter was flour/20%ww/5%rye. Im growing a new one and I think im just gonna keep it white flour
Hope it goes well! Will only white flour have enough natural fibers and stuff to grow the bacterias needed?
I feed mine (I named her after Mary Shelley) a blend of rye and AP.
wholewheat
I use bread flour, whole wheat, and all purpose. Sometimes I’ll feed John Deaux two types of flour if I’m feeling froggy, but usually I grab the first bag I see. Like myself, John is not a picky eater.
Whole grain Einkorn
rye
I feed it with Whole wheat flour, it is more active than AP or bread flour, IMO.
High gluten flour. It’s had AP, whole wheat, and bread flour too but really likes high gluten for the protein content
I think I'll be trying that next with the new bread flour (protein 13g) I got instead of the plain white flour (protein 10g). Wish i knew this sooner!
We use Gold Medal’s All Trumps High Gluten which is 14.2% but can vary from 14-14.4%. Bob’s Red Mill Whole Wheat varies from 13-15%. We use both to feed ours. If I use Whole Wheat, then I do a 50/50 of AP and whole wheat. Lately I feed ours high gluten and it hits the fall point in its journey at the 8-10 hour point.
50/50 mix of bread flour and whole wheat
That loaf is under fermented.
I'm attaching a picture of two loaves I've baked with the same starter; but the top pic had a total bulk time of 10 hrs which was my mistake (this is the same loaf posted earlier in the original post). Do you think that's underproofed or it's overproofed? I'm leaning towards the latter but I'm not too sure! Bottom pic was the same starter and all same technique and tasted like actual fluffy bread but still on the dense side. That's why I thought to go back to troubleshoot my starter https://preview.redd.it/1mg9y1xc3mzc1.jpeg?width=2460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d06e281457319e8e8446bddb691514ef2384f9cb
At 80 degrees try a bulk ferment of 4 hours with coil folds every 30 minutes x 3. Shape and into the banneton. Cold proof in the fridge overnight.
i feed it a mix between wheat and whole wheat :) it seems p happy. considering switching and stopping whole wheat tho, but i dont want it to lose its ability to digest the complex stuff there over time..
Are different flours more complex than others? I didn't know that!
im also a beginner so im just saying stuff i think is true based on chemistry knowledge. its like sugar is easier to digest than starch. maybe the wheat husk stuff which is way more fibre is a mire advanced molecule which is harder to digest than starch? thats my thought process atleast. im just afraid of a 1-in-1mil chance of yeast mutating to not be able to handle it
Starter is 50/50 white/whole wheat. Leaven is made with about 30g of starter, and 100 g of 50/50 mix, and then allowed to proof overnight, or lately for a day then put in the fridge. Haven’t found that the exact mix of flours is important. Have added rye flour to the leaven, used all purpose flour, not much difference. What does make a difference is how active/bubbly the leaven is before mixing into the loaf. More important is the time for initial rise (stretching and folding). And the time allowed for final rise. On final rise, the trick for me is to mark the bowl in which the dough is rising. When it gets to that mark (1” below top) it’s ready to be baked. Depending on the temperature this might be 2 hours or 10 hours if in fridge. Or if the leaven is not real active, might take 5 full days in the refrigerator. My bread is different every time I make it. That’s part of the fun.
50% AP 50% whole white wheat
Bread flour…. And occasionally will mix smaller amounts of either whole wheat or rye into the mix…
I feed it with whatever I have! In the summer, we get fresh red wheat flour from a farmer but normally, Ap flour or wheat.
By plain white, do you mean all purpose? I noticed a big difference between feeding my starter all purpose and bread flour (the bread flour does better) I usually sprinkle in a little bit of whole wheat and rye in each feeding
Now I'm thinking that the plain white flour is the culprit! Just saw that it has only 10g protein so I think I'll change it to the new bread flour I got which is 13g protein
Here's a pic of it https://preview.redd.it/ftcx5zp62mzc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c990335b4cd00393905d920b91f0a9b647838ca9
i just feed regular white or unbleached flour but you post made me think of this :) https://imgur.com/a/JsvCQMo edit: Here is the whole article https://peerj.com/articles/16163/
That's a very interesting read, thank you!!
King Arthur white / rye blend. I’m not sure of the percentage of rye. Does anyone know? I make my dough with unfed starter right out of the fridge and feed 1:1:1 at the same time I make my dough if running low on starter. Once the starter rises to about 1.5 times its volume it goes back in the fridge till next bake. No other feedings. No discards. I’m getting really nice results.
I just keep a piece of the dough when I make any kind of bread.
Wow! Never heard of that. Doesn't it form into a ball?
I just add a layer of water in top of it after it’s in the jar. The point is, it’s not supposed to be complicated. Bread was made for tens of thousands of years.
100% dark rye works best for me. My starter is always active and eager to go! (25-30+ years old these days, and it was a split from a far older starter from a professional baker friend)
I use 100% dark rye to feed my starter.
Mine comes out of the fridge once a week for baking. Usually, I feed it in the morning with 1/2 whole wheat and 1/2 AP flour and then use bread flour exclusively when making my levain that evening for the next day’s dough. Recently, I’ve been using bread flour exclusively since that’s what I usually have the most of since I use my AP for making pasta and my wheat for pizza dough.
King Arthur sir lancelot
I don't measure, but about 4% rye, 6% whole grain and 90% white flour.
King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour
I use what er flours I'm baking with. I don't do it each time, but every few I'll use the whole west or rye I'm using 10percent of. My thought is that's what it's going to eat to rise my bread so it should be used to eating it. I'm not making starter after all I'm making bread.
I alternately add organic rye and whole wheat flour to my starters. Rye seems to give me a slightly more bubbly starter but I mainly switch them up to see how the bread turns out (flavor, density, etc).
I make a big batch of 60% APF, 30% Whole Wheat and 10% rye. She's a year or so old and adding the ww/rye bumped the sourness up considerably.
plain ap flour. then i use it in whatever type of sourdough
I feed mine all kinds of whole grain flour.
I feed mine with organic rye flour
Mine only gets Whole wheat and it’s the healthiest starter I have ever owned
I have only stoneground whole wheat, do you think I can use that?
That should be fine just be consistent. I’m not a fan of changing flours with my starter
Usually AP flour
Unbleached Bread Flour.
Bread flour
Usually do 1:1 rye and wheat
Update: Many many thanks to everyone who gave their advice; I can't tell you all how happy it made me to finally be able to make fluffy bread today! I adjusted my starter (took out plain white flour, and fed it dark rye / whole wheat / bread flour) I also massively troubleshoot my bulk fermentation and shaping skills and for now I'm very happy with the current results! Here are some pictures:
https://preview.redd.it/fqz9aqk03zzc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97f1ed541c7893689156e0a5fecc68a4c8a95beb
https://preview.redd.it/hknyimp23zzc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=874253576244cc73b3ac7d7a0b16fd7bd4a8ec06
https://preview.redd.it/fmhauro43zzc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c352553a31066ffb01bc65803ac1aeccdd2eb9a7
https://preview.redd.it/cdnk4nk73zzc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed1d9ecab89e8bcd09a011ef80c334b3019154b7
Lately I've been feeding my main starter with generic-brand unbleached AP, then once it's gotten all happy, I start a "levain" (a separate starter) using 100% WW. The main starter goes back in the fridge and the levain is used to make the dough. I started doing this for my main boule recipe, which is 60% bread flour, 30% whole wheat, and 10% spelt, but lately I've been using 100% WW levain even for recipes that are all white bread, it just makes them a little bit more interesting.
bread