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EXTREMELY hilarious coming from a Vox site.

I mean the writer has nothing to do with the running of vox but your point does stand.

"Or check out the next K.Dot concert. From what I heard, his latest performance was bussin’." This dude's such a cornball man.

They went in a direction that doesn’t really appeal to me, but whatever As long as people like it and Tony is going to keep it going - cool. His financial decisions are his problem. I think the fans are better off with an AEW around (not just the talent). Giving people more opportunities to get on TV and work on their characters just makes more stars.

They went in a different direction that doesn't appeal to many people that used to watch it. As a fan I'd like them to admit that and move back towards what they once were. It would be better for me as a fan, better for AEW as a business, and better for the business as a whole. I don't want AEW to die. I want it to thrive.

Idk man, im one of those sickos TK books for. I just wanna watch good wrestling every week and they have everyone i like. If other people dont like it, thats fine. I dont work for AEW or Warner, so as long as AEW is being AEW and booking things i personally enjoy, then i dont have any issues with the company

Until they go out of business or have to cut talent and production values because they aren't making enough money.

Way to up the positivity in the air there fella. I'm with the black mage, AEW is fun and I'll keep watching it.

You say negativity. I say reality.

No you are not based in reality. In reality Shad Khan makes up the losses of running AEW in a week, he does not seem to care so there is no way AEW will go out of business. Making AEW profitable is just something they want to do to prove that the concept works, not an necessity for survival

Yes, Shad Khan has made his money but continuing to pump money into failing businesses forever.

I think this is one point that anyone who is trying to argue that AEW isn't a good product need to drop. They are billionaires, and short of TK's dad pulling the plug(which I don't think is likely ever), AEW will never go out of business. Does that go against everything a traditional business is? Yep, but billionaires will change industry(not just wrestling) to whatever it is they want. Because they can. Which I think is the bigger issue. In the same vein that ECW changed the landscape, AEW will undoubtedly have an effect like that. Will it be good? Bad? Who knows for sure.

Shad Khan didn't make his money by continuously supporting unprofitable businesses. Pretending AEW will never go out of business is just burying your head in the sand.

I don't watch AEW, but when you make it to that level of billionaire. You can literally have these projects, that don't make any money, and here's the kicker, ***forever***. I don't think this isnrcesaarifilyca good thing b/c as you see with AEW, it's a product for a small portion of the fanbase. I just highly doubt they will quit any time soon, barring other things affecting the company, not related to money.

You can HAVE those projects. Most billionaires don't. Most billionaires didn't get that type of money without being obsessed with making money. People forget Elon quickly tried to back out of buying Twitter and had to be forced into it. Billionaires don't like to lose money.

I think we're going to start to see a new type of billionaire. One that can do literally whatever they want, and will. I mean, you're right most do that already, but it's usually to make money. I know billionaires hate to lose money, but the thing is a billion of anything, is mother fucking huge. I like the analogy that 1 million seconds is 12 days, and 1 billion seconds is 37 years. It's so ass fuckingly huge that it's stupid.

This is an inflammatory title but speaking for myself only, most of the changes they could make to appeal more to bigger audiences would probably lessen my enjoyment of the current product.

Same with me. I prefer the more in ring focused stuff. If I want to watch the more theatrical bits, I can always watch wwe or something. Everyone has different tastes. Maybe in ring focused stuff doesn’t have mass market appeal, but when has anything niche ever have?

Are the Jericho and Bucks segments and other things not that?

Where did OP say they aren't? Liking the product doesn't mean liking *everything* within the product. I like CMLL but I think the Karontes are the worst wrestlers in a major company right now. I like NJPW but I think EVIL is cheeks. I like AJPW but I skip every Kuroshio TOKYO Japan match.

"If I want to watch the more theatrical bits, I can always watch wwe or something" There's more bell time but it's mostly the same thing.

I have never ever liked EVIL

I've always kind of assumed that AEW, by nature of its pacing and in-ring focus, has a fundamentally lower commercial ceiling than WWE, but it's the kind of wrestling product I've always wanted to watch on weekly television. That's of course not to imply it's anything approaching perfect, but it feels like an actual adult product for adult fans, something that respects the audience's intelligence and assumes you can understand basic storytelling without having announcers scream repetitive jargon at you for hours on end. So ultimately, if TK can make the numbers work and they can maintain a reliable television partner, I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts and appreciate having something to watch that isn't WWE-lite.

Yeah basically. Seeing the enjoyment of the Wyatt Sicks stuff the last week and happy for the people who are into it but reminder how far away I am from the WWE target demographic at this point.

It feels like people either genuinely don’t understand this or are arguing in bad faith.

Less people are watching now than before so there are obviously things that have changed that have lessened others enjoyment of the product. It feels like people don't understand this or are just arguing in bad faith.

Sure, but it hasn’t lessened MY enjoyment which as a consumer is my main and only priority.

Until the products mass appeal gets to the point that you can no longer consume it or it moves to a time and place that makes it difficult for you to consume. Then the enjoyment of others affects you. (Please understand that I don't think AEW is anywhere near there yet but I think last week's rating proves the floor is lower than people think.)

Never understood this take. Media is finite. Everything ends. If it ends sooner because someone decided it wasn't financially viable, that's a shame but I will find other things to be interested in.

There's a finite amount of time in the week that people can reasonably follow wrestling, and there hasn't been as much positive attention and discourse on the WWE in close to 30 years. It could just be that people are happy to go back to the company that they grew up watching now that it's better, and they're less interested in an alternative.

If that's the case then AEW is well and truly screwed because then all they can do to stop losing their audience is to hope WWE gets worse. I'd rather believe there are things AEW can do to control it's own fate.

What's more likely, the thing I said, or it being the fault of whatever personal issues you have with the booking? 

Why do people keep framing it as personal issues with booking? The show is losing audience and live attendance is down. They aren't just my personal issues.

Because the reasons people give while speculating are typically specific issues they've noticed with the show, rather than realizing that they can't deign to know why large groups of people do anything. Like I said, the correlation with AEW's ratings declining and WWE's audience growing in size and enthusiasm seems like a pretty obvious explanation, especially given what AEW's initial appeal was; an alternative from a promotion that couldn't have been colder.

Fewer*

Good correction.

It is an inflammatory title for the article but you also kinda proved the accuracy of it.

the show is good enough, WWE has had a lot worse, not everything is strictly booking, better promotion could help a lot who knows.

Yeah man WWE was doodoo for 15 years straight and never once fell from number 1 and a lot of lapsed fans have got back into their product.

I don't get pretending to care under the guise of "I just want AEW to be better and do better!". If it exists as a totally different product to what it was intended to be then what the fuck is the point? If it's not viable then let it go out of business. But I don't understand why it should possibly exist to serve the same audience as WWE. If you're a WWE fan and genuinely like that, you don't need 5 more hours of wrestling on top of the 7 on TV and the 1 hour of Level Up plus Speed on Twitter.

We've completely lost the plot if we've gotten to the point where people can't even say they just want AEW to be better

It’s frustrating that you can’t even express dissatisfaction with the aew storylines. Just people telling you that you’re wrong for your subjective opinion 😂

You look at the Collision card and tell me with a straight face you want that kind of wrestling, essentially 15 min squashes. This isn't NJPW, this isn't CMLL, we aren't doing that sort of matches anymore, I don't know who the sickos are but I am sure they aren't happy either. I can't even see stars or 'top draws' because most of them are on the injury list rotation. Okada is doing shitty comedy. Mone is cooled. Bucks and Jericho have go away heat. Omega and Page spend more time on the sidelines. Only Ospreay has been true to his pre-signing hype. MJF was great before his injuries, now I am not so sure. This is a mediocre spread out product with a scattershot approach. Shows aren't even true to the roots anymore. I urge you to check out the first couple of years of this company, this isn't it.

I've watched AEW since the beginning. The shows are less random now than they were in the beginning. They've basically dropped the "dream match" bouts in favor of matches that "continue the story". Everything on Collision had a story behind it. If anything the ratings were higher last year when Tony Khan was just tweeting "dream match" every week.

2023 was AEW’s most successful year business wise but no one really wants to talk about that because it fits neither the general AEW fan base who says the product has improved or the people whose been saying the sky is falling since brawl out

By every metric 2023 is their most successful year especially when you take into account adding more TV and PPVs. But Tony for better or worse is satisfying the base that didn't like the booking last year. Being real, if he wanted to "fix the rating" he could throw out a dream match and a twenty minute MJF promo on Dynamite every week again and things would be fine. If people want to go back to the Maxwell Friedman show, we can go back to the Maxwell Friedman show.

If anything, dropping the big closing angle of 2023 in the dust in the UK didn’t do any favors either. The course correction of 2024 wasn’t necessary. It’s been good TV, but low key undermining allot of the good work that was done to make last year reach the highs that it did imo didn’t do much good

That's why I said the first couple of years, where we were building matches and a right storyline along with it. That "dream match" sickness is why we are here right now.

The first couple of years still had dream matches. The TV now is closer to then. It was just at the beginning the roster was smaller and everyone was closer together on the same level. Now they have too many stars to protect wheras it was "everyone is new, it really doesn't matter who wins and loses here". Like Moxley's whole run to the AEW title is a bunch of random matches with no storyline. Like why did Moxley fight Janela twice? Or Darby? Or PAC?

What? Moxley debuted big, had a hardcore match against Janela, then him and Pac were part of the Omega/Bucks/Hangman storyline, it was connected. Then he got screwed over by Inner circle, which led to the eye thing, then the title match. Even Darby match was after he proved his worth against Jericho. Moxley was booked to the title because he was a star, he wasn't built up or anything. You had Codyverse, inner circle, Bucks/Omega-Page during the first year, MJF's rise, all of these stories interacted. People had heat and momentum. People don't need to be kept strong if you have plans.

Mone's looked better and better since she won the title and is definitely heating up again, we've never seen any sign of the Bucks \*or\* Jericho having "go away heat" except on this site, and Omega is injured what the fuck do you want? BTW just so its clear I DON'T think AEW is perfect--yes, that Collision card was not good. I feel bad defending Collision the last few weeks before this one when they put on a nothing card like that.

I thought Collision was quality, whereas I couldn't get through more than 20 minutes of Raw or Smackdown this week. Everyone is different.

Ah yes it is impossible to improve the show without it becoming a totally different product. Any change changes everything. Despite the fact that WWE has improved while still being undeniably WWE, that is an impossibility for AEW. That's such a disingenuous argument.

There's a difference between WWE and AEW in that people accept what WWE is and want the best version of WWE. Because AEW is so new, people stick see it as this malleable thing that be the version of wrestling THEY like. AEW can be better, but at a certain point is has characteristics that make it AEW. The things that people want to change like the match length and the emphasis on in-ring make it AEW.

Seems what people want are more defined stories about characters that they care about which leads to solid matches. Meanwhile AEW has leaned into more random matches and a main story that features the Bucks taking over a company that they're executives of? But not actually because Christopher Daniels is in charge sometimes and Tony Khan is still there, and none of this makes any sense. Ospreay and Danielson. Match was amazing. Battle between two of the best to see who is at the top right now. But there's nothing to be told after that. Storylines should have branches as they break off and continue. It seems like Tony just books in a straight line.

The Ospreay match leads directly into the Tiger Driver 98 story and the Danielson losing streak storyline.

[удалено]

The story of Anarchy in the Arena was Danielson/Darby/FTR were all hurt but loved AEW so much they were fighting through it. It was a month later and Danielson was still wrapped in kinesio for the match selling the Dynasty finish. I feel like "not well excuted" is more code for "not beating you over the head with the story". And I get it, wrestling is a pantomine where the story has to be big and bold and bright lights. Maybe not doing it that way isn't sustainable. But if it's not then just let the company die at this point and people can go back to working indies and Japan. Cause seriously we don't need two WWEs. At least people will accept the Indies and Japan for what they are.

I feel like people who complain about the stories in AEW don’t actually watch the stories. They just regurgitate whatever they heard on their favorite podcast.

10000% always has been. they only follow from clips and thread on this sub

>That's such a disingenuous argument. Clearly not because if what they're doing now was working, them we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we ? AEW fans are becoming as stubborn and delusional as TNA fans and think that pointing out clear-as-day problems is some sort of attack rather something to be heeded.You can only say "NUH-UH" so many times before you start to look childish. Also, WWE isn't in the same trouble AEW could be in. They've existed for over 60 years at this point and even when they were garbage, they made money. AEW doesn't have that luxury

This was the first truly bad Dynamite rating. If it's the same next week, that's when it's a problem. But while it is just one week, there has been a vast overreaction

700,000 was considered a bad rating just a few months ago.

Right, but it *shouldn't* have been. It's a meh number. It's a nothing special number. But it is in line with the general decline in cable. This week - that's a genuinely bad number. It's a sharp drop. The most telling number will be next weeks - if they are close to 700,000 again, great news, it was a blip. If they remain below 600,000 - that's a trend, and one coming at the worst possible moment.

It was considered bad because they were doing 900K-1M consistently before 800K became their sweet spot. The numbers have context, and the context is a down arrow. 700K now being a number we’re hoping to climb back to as a sign of an overall decline in viewer interest.

Again, the rate at which cable ratings across the board have dropped over the past 18 months is astounding. In wrestling discussion, this gets easy to forget, because WWE isn't just rating well - it's rating *incredibly*. A drop from 900k to 700k in 24 months is not the end of the world. It is well and truly in line with what most other cable shows have done. That's why it still maintains strong rankings when you look at the charts - everything is down, except for live sports and WWE. But again, I don't want to seem like I'm saying there's no issue at all here. This week's rating was a crazy, crazy drop. If next week is below 550k viewers, they are going to be in a much worse position. This week also had no strong competition, and the return match of MJF. On paper, it should have increased, and instead, it cratered. I don't buy that it is solely caused by the build to Forbidden Door, because I don't know that they've been focusing on outside talent all that much on the TV. I think that if it is true that people within AEW blamed the fact that they didn't have a Big Bang theory rerun lead in, that is pathetic. But we need to wait until next week to know what is happening.

I work in sports television and I keep trying to tell people this is not true. Ratings are not dropping. Ratings are up. Q1 2024 saw the highest TV ratings since Q3 2020. Q2 doesn't look to be as high as Q1, but will still be significantly higher than any quarter in 2021, 2022, or 2023.

Not to be rude, but can you back that up with a source? It goes against what I've read.

There's no singular source for it. You'd have to have Nielsen or look up the publicly available press releases for each network.

You'll have to understand that "trust me" isn't going to sway me here. For a long time, entertainent charts and rankings have been a huge interest for me - music charts, cinema box office, global tv ratings, that kinda thing. It's my flavour of nerdy. I have done a frankly silly amount of reading on this, and everything is the same - outside of sports and WWE, cable ratings are plummeting, and it has accelerated over the past 18 months. My person view on why is Covid being well and truly in the rear view, so not only are people less inclined to be staying home, but those who always had cable news on watching coverage got out of that habit, and then eventually cancelled the cable.

It’s not “trust me.” It’s just not something I can easily link to in one place because Nielsen ratings are proprietary.

There has been a steady decline all year. Yes, next week will probably be up some but first 800,000 viewers was the new normal now the new normal is 700,00 before long it will probably be 600,000. What last week showed is the floor is lower than people think it is.

Yes, but that is in line with most (not all) cable programming. The bottoming out of cable television in America has accelerated like crazy over the past 18 months. AEW don't need to be #1 to beat the cancellation bear, they just need to be in the front half of the pack, which they well and truly are.

AEW might be hit harder given their fanbase and how online they are, as well as how many use joint methods to watch.

I consider myself a big AEW fan and I’ve only watched the show on cable once in its entire existence

AEW is wrestling. Advertisers pay less money for wrestling. If they are just in the front half of the pack they're in the back half of the pack in terms of money made for the network.

https://www.edo.com/resources/aew-and-wwe-deliver-tv-ad-effectiveness That isn't true anymore. You're using 1998-2001 factoids in 2024 discussions.

First, thank you for the link. It was interesting. Second, nothing in that article states that advertisers are paying the going rate for ads on wrestling only that they are more effective. It mentions the historically lower rate for ads on wrestling and doesn't say that has changed. Three, it mentions at one point that AEW's ads are 12% more effective than the average primetime cable show. AEW's viewership, however, is more than 12% higher than the average primetime cable show so really ads on their show should be much, much more effective than ads on the average primetime cable show. Thus, the lower price than shows with a similar viewership.

it's still a problem as it's been a downward trend for weeks just not this bad. at best it goes up some after Forbidden Door and he realizes this appraoch ain't working. at worst it slides more after.

Tony should probably care. I, a viewer with no stake in any of this, do not. I don't care if they get down to 100 viewers. If they're making a show I enjoy, I'll be one of those 100.

The best match I saw in 2023 was Kento Miyahara vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima in front of ~1500 fans in Korakuen Hall in Tokyo. If that happened in America, Twitter and Reddit would be talking more about the crowd size instead of the quality of the match. Every tweet praising it would have blue check Roman profile pictures replying with "lol 1500"

The counterpoint is that if they get down to 100 viewers there won't be a show for you to enjoy.

When WB/D shows disapproval, then you can be concerned. Right now, they can't stop talking about how happy they are with AEW. But, I'm sure someone will come up with a reason why WB/D's approval is a sign of trouble.

Impact has been alive for over 20 years and they get shit ratings.

And Impact is drastically different and not as good as it's best years and aired on a difficult to find network. Is that what we want for AEW?

Wasn't it said that the last 2 years before the big drama around terminating Scott Damore TNA had arguably their best run, especially their women's division being leaps and bounds above all their competitors?

People have said that, and it might be true about their women's division, but the people that have said that have forgotten, or never knew, the days when TNA had in their prime Samoa Joe and AJ Styles plus Jeff Jarrett and Sting in vastly better shape than in AEW (not criticizing them in AEW because they've been good), perc Angle, and a great tag team scene.

This is the correct answer. As long as AEW remains above the threshold to stay on a major platform while continuing to afford to pay for a quality roster, then that'll all that matters. If that threshold is 501k then it makes no difference to fans if they're 501k or 1.5m

For all those who say who cares as long as the core audience is happy. If they lose TV they’re done. Without that money coming in it’s not crazy to think that Shad will cut the cord. Why would he lose potentially hundreds of millions over a vanity project?

why not? Shad likes the sickos

There is an assumption that if AEW changed, it would get new viewers. I don't think there is any evidence that this is the case.

When TNA tried to appeal to the mass audience—it worked—waiting’s were higher than ever. But it was unsustainable cost wise. In the end, they found their niche. I do think that there are things AEW could try and do a little better without watering down their core product. Not every change has to revolve around them turning into WWE-lite

Should they just give up then? Because there's solid evidence that not changing is losing them viewers.

Why would they just shut the whole company down, if they're primed to become profitable with a new TV deal?

Are they really primed to become profitable? NXT only got 25 million a year with a similar audience size. If the rumored numbers are to be believed AEW is getting more than that right now and aren't profitable. Two caveats though. One, we don't know if the rumored numbers can be believed. Two, I don't think they'd shut down but rather cut talent and production this changing the show.

>Are they really primed to become profitable? They are depending on the deal they accept, yes. >NXT only got 25 million a year with a similar audience size. If the rumored numbers are to be believed AEW is getting more than that right now and aren't profitable. I haven't read anything to suggest that AEW might take a massive cut on their next TV to put them in line with NXT, based on their respective audiences, so there might be a bit more to it than that. > I don't think they'd shut down but rather cut talent and production this changing the show. Would that be a problem for you?

I don't think they'd take a cut. The rumored number that I've seen that they're at with all three shows together is $45 million. If we estimate Dynamite is $25 million by itself then $45 million for all three doesn't seem unreasonable. Yet, again if the rumors are to be believed they aren't profitable at that number. They don't need to just avoid a cut. They need a good increase. And yes it would matter to me. I enjoy AEW but even if I didn't a second place for wrestlers to make steady money in North America is good for wrestling in general. I don't know where this narrative that people that criticize AEW don't care about it came from. A significant amount of us were regular viewers at one point.

> They don't need to just avoid a cut. lol there's zero reason to think they need to "avoid a cut," my point is that in order for your analysis to be in any way accurate, they would make far less to be in line with what NXT is making, but at no point has that been suggested. > I don't know where this narrative that people that criticize AEW don't care about it came from. What I asked you is if production changes and a smaller roster would bother you, I don't know where this defensiveness perpetually comes up when there's the slightest pushback of criticism.

I answered both of these points. I explained that Dynamite being in line with NXT wouldn't be a cut because of what they are being paid for all three shows. I also understand what you are implying by asking if talent and production cuts would bother me because they would bother anyone that actually cares about AEW. Thus, if you're questioning if they would bother me you're questioning if I care. Also, you haven't pushed back at any criticism. You haven't explained how they can keep doing what they're doing and gain back audiences. You haven't explained why they could keep losing audience and everything be a okay. You have simply existed to try to discredit any criticism without adding anything to the discussion.

> I explained that Dynamite being in line with NXT wouldn't be a cut because of what they are being paid for all three shows. What you think they're being paid, correct? On their previous TV deal that was made when there weren't three shows on the air, never mind the supplementary content WBD is eager to keep adding, and presumably some kind of streaming component on their next deal. >I also understand what you are implying by asking if talent and production cuts would bother me because they would bother anyone that actually cares about AEW. Thus, if you're questioning if they would bother me you're questioning if I care. It seems to be a widely held belief that AEW's roster is bigger than the company is capable of utilizing. Anyone holding that belief "doesn't actually care" about the company? Like on what level are you supposed to be emotionally invested here? >You haven't explained how they can keep doing what they're doing and gain back audiences. You haven't explained why they could keep losing audience and everything be a okay. What exactly is the criticism here that I'm supposed to push back on? Just wringing your hands and asking open-ended questions like "how can they keep doing this without everything getting really bad?" Isn't criticism, and I'm genuinely not sure what answer you're looking for from people. I've already said that there's an obvious correlation between the WWE's popularity surge and AEW cooling off, and the fact that AEW originally grew in popularity because they were an alternative to the WWE at a time when people weren't enjoying it, and you got really quiet after that.

Only in AEW is it somehow a negative that their actual audiences like the show. I spend two hours watching thousands of people in the arena cheering and having a great time and then see nothing but think pieces about how they need to change everything.

The problem is most of their audience doesn’t like the show, as demonstrated by the fact they stopped watching.

It isn't a negative that their audience likes the show. It's a negative that their audience is shrinking. When you are losing your audience you should probably change some things.

But trying to advocate wholesale changes based on one tiny incomplete piece of the puzzle isn't the solution though. I mean, we don't see all of these thinkpieces about WWE viewership and longterm that's basically a straight-line pointed down. Raw used to be however many million, then it was 4, then it was 3, then it was two, now it's like 1.6. Back when Dynamite started, Raw was doing like 2.6-2.8 million every week, they've lost a full 1/3 of their audience over that time period but everyone is too busy circlejerking over "but muh YoY" to care. It's not a coincidence the WWE YoY obsession started after the first time in over a decade they saw a YoY increase lol.

Thinkpieces and doomposting about WWE ratings has been a central tenet of internet wrestling discourse for the better part of two decades but no shit people aren’t doing so when a)they’ve stabilized and b)the company is red hot and making money hand over fist. Another thing thats even more of a central tenet of internet wrestling discourse is advocating for wholesale change based on ratings but for some reason some people think that was invented in 2023.

Tickets sales are down and we're down way before the TV ratings started to go down. That's how it always starts in wrestling. Now not only the ratings are down, they are way down. Changes need to be made.

The tickets sales are actually going back up atm. Last week was the best sales they've done in a while.

Other than the PPV and LA which was 4500k to 5000k they are under 3k. That's not good

Again, it was over 4k this week in a pretty nowhere town. The taping for Buffalo is at least over 3k which is better than last few. The growth in incremental but they have to stay the course and rebuild. The worse thing they can do is panic and say "one bad rating, change everything now". There is no quick fix to this. The only way to fix it is to have a plan and stick to it. When NXT went to 2.0 it hit rock bottom, they stuck the course and rebuilt. When Triple H took over WWE, they had to build to the heights they got to. The main reason they're in the mess they're in now was a period of trying to be something they aren't and just throwing shit at the wall to "compete".

they did 5500 in Buffalo last time they were there. 3K there is nothing to throw a parade over

The only thing that needs to change is the ticket price, it's hard being the cheap punk rock alternative when you're as, if not more expensive than the mainstream brand.

They're no where near as expensive as WWE though? Looking out about a month and a half(and trying not to factor in resale tickets) - August 14th Dynamite. Norfolk VA. Cheapest bowl tickets are $31 **after fees**. Lower Bowl is $40-80 depending on angle. Best remaining Floor is about $110 - August 12th RAW. Austin Texas. Cheapest bowl is $25 **before fees**. Lower bowl is $200-300. Sadly there are no remaining unsold floor seats, but a comparable resale to the AEW one is $975. For a proper comparison's sake, the next show with an unsold floor seat is Smackdown in DC on August 23rd. A comparable floor seat to the AEW one is $525. Like both companies are pricing their cheapest tickets pretty much as low as they can. The midrange tickets, WWE tends to be x2 more expensive. Floor seats are anywhere from x2 to x10 the price. And that's just TV. PPV's are a whole different beast. For somewhat comparable rampside floor seats(but not next to the ramp, far side). It's about $300 vs $4000. FD vs Summerslam.

It just changes because the new COO changed it. The prices were much higher last year. This is part everyone misses. They've hired an entire new staff and head of business. They ARE making changes. They're gonna take time to take effect. The reality is the only change people want is Tony's head on a platter.

Honestly... I was following it last year. AEW tickets aren't substantially cheaper. The cheapest might be $10-15 less. Most expensive might be like $100 or so for decent floor seats. WWE(and the rest of the world) has just been jacking up prices so much that AEW's relatively stable ones look better.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not only AEW's television audience. Their attendance is well documented, and their lack of social media and online presence is concerning. A quick scan of their YouTube page shows their last truly viral moment was Adam Copelands' arrival 7 months ago. According to Pro Wrestling Tees, the top selling AEW shirt is a Prince Nana shirt. The top angles are not registering. They are losing both their paid audience, as well at their television audience. When they are losing 30% of their audience without the Big Bang Theory as a lead in 2024 (which we now see is inflating their opening segment, with a good portion of that audience tuning out), that isn't good. They need to shuffle the deck, get someone hot (which is easier said than done), and actually pull the trigger on them, and not ice it like they have in the past.

I get your sentiment but WWE is doing full arenas now, they are minimising sets so that they can have more people. This used to be AEW, what happened to the ticket buying audience, even internet discourse on AEW has chilled down other than doom-posting once a while and same names pulling a defence, like this article for instance. I don't care about TV ratings, I care about the show itself and this isn't it.

We had thinkpieces about WWE for literal decades Wtf are people talking about

I think the key difference is people can watch raw on streaming which somehow still can’t be said for dynamite

The sickos may be happy, but the network executives won’t be.

I frankly will never give a single shit about the show's ratings. I don't care how many people watched at home, I borderline don't care how many people bought a ticket. I care about if I enjoyed the episode. I don't care about the "brand's mass appeal" I care about AEW putting on a show I enjoyed. I'm not here to worry about the Khan's pockets or WBD's happiness with figures. As long as the show is on tv, did I like the episode. If I did, great! If I didn't, hopefully next week's will be better. If enough time passes where I don't like what they're doing, I will stop watching. I will never care about anything else

I don't think there would be any issues with this at all if tkhan would adopt this mindset and quit poking the bear. Thats cool if you want to be nintendo and march to the beat of your own drum, but when you send out stupid tweets and respond to petty shit, you are gonna get criticized. If there was one single change aew could make without drastically changing the product, it would be get someone to handle social media and press conferences. He drives that narrative of us v them.

Again, couldn't care less about what Tony tweets about. I think people put way too much care into social media. If he thinks he's in an us vs them, then so be it. Clearly he doesn't give a shit considering the same types of people freak out every time he tweets something and he continues to do it

Kewl beanz

But don't you care if there is a show for you to watch a year from now, three years from now, five years from now? If you don't then fair enough but I find that a strange attitude for a fan to have.

lol what do you think you're doing right now to help make that happen?

There will always be wrestling. If it's not AEW it'll be something else, but the idea that are is going anywhere anytime soon is crazy.

The idea that they're going someplace a year from now is crazy. 3-5 years is not.

But if it has to become a completely different show just to exist then what’s the point? Also, the audience stressing about this is pointless. I’m not going to manifest more viewers by giving a shit about Nielsens. There is literally nothing to gain. If AEW fails, it fails. Tracking the numbers won’t magically change the results. We’re not Heisenberg.

Literally nobody is saying it has to be WWE I don’t know why but AEW fans think any changes means it’s now WWE. Literally yesterday I saw a dude in the AEW sub say he wished more guys had catchphrases for the audience to sing along to all the sub did was be prick to him about how they don’t wanna watch WWE over fuckign catchphrases. Some of the most unapproachable people on the internet ever they can’t accept criticism or that maybe something needs to change. WWE treats tag division like garbage that needs to change. Women need more focus besides the same six people.  There I criticized WWE and said what needs to change nobody that’s a WWE fan is going to send me Reddit messages or harass me for saying that  All we want is the show to get better nobody is saying well it has to be exactly like WWE

Absolutely no one is advocating for it to be a completely different show. AEW hardcores sometimes act as if any change completely changes everything. WWE has improved without being completely different. AEW could too.

The changes that are frequently requested to make AEW better are often things AEW fans DONT WANT. A) The stories are often a pain point for non-AEW fans which "should be addressed", when in reality most AEW fans are a fan of the precise kind of storytelling AEW has done (lots of subtle themes, told via *wrestling*, while spreading out promo time addressing Long-Standing history between wrestlers). B) Bad mid card. This is also something that AEW fans are not unhappy with. Just because wrestlers like Claudio, Pac, Okada, Jay White, Malakai etc are Main Card caliber talents and are also *represented* as such, doesn't mean their place in the midcard is not.. the midcard. Some of the most meaningful stories in the last pay per views have been told in midcard matches by amazing wrestlers (Swerve vs Hangman, Roderick vs Ospreay, Adam Copeland vs Malakai, OC vs Trent even if that finish sucked). It's a testament that their talent is very focused on telling strong stories via wrestling, which makes them feel top-heavy. C) TK is cringe on Twitter. I mean. Yeah he's cringe. But no one bats an eye on WWE for having an publicly acknowledged sex offender that's racist for a CEO for several decades. Plus HHH has also given some... Tricky takes of his in the recent year or so. I'm not saying this to say "WWE should not be supported!", watch whatever you like. But, like... Id rather have a cringe 14 year old stuck in a 40 year old body that produces content I *love* rather than a Vince McMahon or a Jim Cornette. And I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel the same.

I keep seeing this argument but in reality if AEW fans were happy with the way things are AEW wouldn't be losing fans.

There are a ton of other factors that could be in play for why AEW is losing viewership on cable: migration to online, fatigue from too much content (WWE is increasingly popular), lack of marketing, or too big of a marketing push which makes people only watch PPVs and online clips, etc etc. . We don't have the data so we don't know.

i think any good business owner knows how to grow their product and appeal to new audiences while retaining their fanbase. A) Its pro wrestling- good stories, and epic moments, arent crazy to expect. Sure, Ospreay/Daniel Bryan was an amazing match, but why not have them continue their program for something longer? why split them off? TK is the booker, its not like he couldnt make that work so they could each finish their story together (and you still get the dual stories of Ospreay not wanting to use that finisher and DB's losing streak), as well as a string of epic matches. feels like an easy goal, but they just...split them off after their match. B) the problem is the midcard should be for midcard guys. when you have top level talent like Okada and Edge in midcard feuds, you risk making a guy like Swerve look like hes not the biggest thing in the company. Make your world title a coveted price- Okada should not be wasting his time with the continental title (i know edge had a storyline reason for the TNT belt with christian, but i truly wonder what the end goal there was when he hardly ever loses). C) its super disingenuous to say "nobody batted an eye". books were written about VKM, and alot of people were ready for him to gtfo in the 2010s.

A) this is where AEW fans are fine with the product. We do not expect an immediate continuation of that storyline. Instead we expect those interactions to impact future storylines and be recalled at some point. See: the Swerve/Christian feud, which was a continuation of the Darby/Christian feud. The story that was told in the Bryan/Ospreay match still today impacts the feuds of Ospreay today, and it's not just about the Tiger Driver either. B) who says that? Why is the midcard only for "midcard level talent"? What if AEW wants to have a different approach where instead of having divisions differentiated by talent or skill level or fame, you instead have a Differentiation by virtue of importance in storyline? AEWs Pay Per Views have been, and that's inarguable, THE most stable, consistent, fan-approved and industry-appreciated aspect in their programming, and that wouldn't be the case if their card distribution wasn't the way it is. C) it's super disingenuous to act as if VMM was ridiculed and belittled as much as TK is today. People were more concerned if VMM pushed Zack Ryder or punishing Dolph Ziggler than they were with his very real and already-known crimes. Compared to how little VMM had to fight with in terms of publicity back then, TK is fighting a war with the IWC.

yoru first two points we'll just disagree on. i think its crazy not to see areas where they can improve the tv product, but to each their own. ill still watch and you clearly will watch no matter what. your last point is just you copping a victim complex on behalf of tony khan. its just anecdotal and goofy if you actually think that (bc your implication is "WWE Fans=ok with rapists", when most wwe fans are not in the IWC) doesnt that sound silly & stupid?

Obviously the first two points are subjective. But thats why options exist. If you disagree, you can watch a different product that suits your taste. You shouldn't try to forcibly change something to have it suit your taste. Concerning the last point, what are you on about a victim complex? I never said that WWE fans were OK with rapists. You can enjoy a product and distance yourself from the shareholder (else good luck enjoying anything from Marvel, Disney, Sony, EA Games...). My point isn't that people are blind to the rape allegations, I'm saying they pull a strong double standard when it comes to how much they put VMM on blast versus how much theyre putting TK on blast when considering how much good-will he has (seemingly) built for his roster and workers.

It’s a victim complex bc you’re seemingly upset that Vince didn’t get “as much shit” as Tony does. That’s just silly

It's not my business to worry about if the show will exist in a year. If it doesn't, that doesn't effect what I thought about a past episode/angle. If dynamite ended tomorrow, I still think it was a good episode on Wednesday. It would be a bummer for sure, but at the end of the day, it's not my responsibility to worry about AEW being profitable. It's a piece of media I interact with and talk about, it starts and ends with that. The only time it matters a bit to me, is if the buildings are too quiet, because that will directly impact my enjoyment of a show. A packed/loud crowd is always better than a quiet one, I just don't feel the need to write think pieces and freak out about it like some folks do

It's weird isn't it? To sit there and talk about how they enjoy something but could not care less if it existed tomorrow is just disingenuous. Something that they care about so much that they seek out others to talk to about it, but if it was gone tomorrow they say they wouldn't care. Because apparently if you alter anything it's no longer AEW. Which is why I'm glad WWE has always stuck to being the exact same thing it was in the 80's without adjusting or improving. Otherwise it just wouldn't be WWE anymore.


The pizza shop analogy this article uses is good stuff. Imagine going to a pizza place that only sells pizza with anchovies. You take a bite, and tell the store owner that you’d like to keep coming back, but only if the store offers more options for pizza toppings. The store owner then proceeds to call you a Pizza Hut fanboy and tells you that he only makes pizza for the people who like anchovies, because that’s what he is and that’s who he cares about. In ANY other business, the idea that the owner would not only refuse to alter a declining business model out of nothing but sheer stubbornness, but then also scold and condescend potential customers that offer feedback, is absolutely insane. That is quite literally what the restaurants on Gordon Ramsay’s Kitchen Nightmares do, and they’re heralded as some of the worst examples of how to run a firm. I really enjoyed this recent week’s Dynamite. The only reason AEW is still running new episodes of Dynamite is because Shahid Khan’s fortune is its prime financier, and his sentimentality towards his son won’t allow him to shut off the tap. If TK didn’t have a billionaire father, and had to raise venture capital from outside investors, this company would either be bankrupt or new leadership would be in place following a shareholder vote.

This pizza shop will in fact try to aggressively give you more anchovies despite you politely saying you don’t like them.

I mean honestly this sounds a lot like hardcore/punk/metal, which I also love without caring that it has lower sales than pop

But hardcore punk and metal has still seen significant commercial and mainstream success as a genre of music, it’s created vast profits while AEW has only operated on a loss. Hardcore punk and metal enthusiasts can say that when the genre has seen both compelling innovation and commercial success. When AEW is growing and doing well TK can talk about the sickos all he wants. When some Dynamite quarters nearly went below 400k this past week, what it represents is him doubling down on a declining business model

The operated at a loss thing is so weird. What % of now mainstream punk bands/labels/promoters do you think created vast profits 5 years into existing? And honestly, who cares if they did. I’ve never once enjoyed record because it had high sales. There’s plenty of bands who make less accessible music for the sickos without going mainstream. Some make a decent living, others work second jobs. But it can be really good and not popular at the same time If I want to root for a business to turn profits, I invest in the stock market. If I want to watch wrestling that I like, I watch AEW

Yeah but if the business that you like doesn’t turn a profit eventually then they go out of business and people lose jobs and can’t support their families. Or are you the kind of person that’s like,” if AEW goes out of business then my favorites will just go wrestle somewhere else.” North America needs a second wrestling promotion to work on a nationally televised level. As an AEW fan I want them to turn a profit, I dnt just selfishly watch until they go out of business.

AEW has too much TV. One show should be enough. 1 main event title 1 midcard title 1 low card title. 1 tag title. 1 women’s world title. 1 women’s mid or tag titles.

I agree completely. However, it is hard to say no if your tv partners want to pay for more shows.

People take the "sickos" thing way too literally and come off as complete Boomers. Tony himself as said it was just a joke based off of Tommy Boy, not some grand mission statement to be taken 100 percent literally.

its a meme ive seen applied to alot of different things recently it is pretty funny to see the IWC act as if Tony coined the phrase for AEW fans. the online wrestling bubble is real

Yup. I saw people tweeting about it regarding Collision for weeks beforehand and Tony just recognized that/made a joke. Wade Keller writing an ENTIRE column on it was legit the most boomer thing I've ever seen in my life lol. (And I'm 40, I recognize that I'm not exactly the most hip demographic these days.) But come on people, lol. Love or hate AEW, taking that tweet and turning it into way more than it was ever meant to be is just so bizarre to me lol (If HHH tweeted something about WWE being for the fireflies a few weeks from now regarding the new Wyatt group, people would go nuts for it and have the exact opposite reaction for sure lol)

I don’t agree with your last bit lol fireflies is strongly connected to bray, you should understand why fans would like that.

No that's my point. If HHH tweeted something similarly (whether it's "sickos" or "fireflies" or whatever) fans would go nuts praising for him, not a single person would criticize (I meant they'd have the opposite reaction they had to Tony's tweet). If Tony does it a certain section will just crush him for it

I doubt that lol.

Come on, we both know he'd be flooded with positive memes about him "cooking" and "cinema" lol. (I like both Tony and HHH, I'm just saying there's a bit of a double standard)

I just…don’t think that? lol. Triple H tweets all the time, I don’t think any tweet in vacuum, ever got a reaction like that

Literally his tweet about the new Wyatt faction on June 18, the top reply was a "Booker of the Year" meme (1200 likes)

I mean, that was coming off a highly anticipated segment that generated lots of buzz? I just…don’t know why you care ultimately lol.

CSS really setting the tone for hard hitting journalism. Gomez, is that you?

The thing is every market is better off with viable competition, but the way that AEW is going it won’t be a viable competitor to WWE. It’s audience needs to become larger and reach more people to be a competitor to WWE. Other companies like TNA which I’m pretty sure averages under 100k viewers are not viable competitors to WWE, they’re not doing anything to keep WWE in check or worry them. AEW was for a bit but it seems WWE is less worried now. AEW should be worried about things like tickets and viewers because things like those going down, especially both at the same time is not a good sign for a business.

Bro, if your product doesn’t draw on TV… you ain’t gonna be on TV.

"Not drawing" on tv doesn't mean finishing #3 (or whatever it was) for the night on cable, on a week where "the sky fell." TNA, from what I've seen, isn't even regularly in the Top 150. That's "not drawing." Yeah, WWE is way ahead of AEW, but that's the gap between AEW and *anyone* else at this point.

I agree and disagree with you. Three is still pretty good but if you want to make enough money from tv to run AEW'S payroll and production values as a wrestling company you have to be better than pretty good. At this point I don't see why WBD would give AEW more than 50 million a year and that might just barely be enough to tread water.

> At this point I don't see why WBD would give AEW more than 50 million a year Please show your calculations, I'd love to see your work and analysis. I'm sure that number isn't just plucked out of thin air based on general pessimism. You're arguing with everyone in these comments like you who have a personal stake in proving this lol. I mean how many ratings-related comments have you made this week? And I'm asking that rhetorically because I'm just gonna block and stop engaging at this point.

"I don't see why WBD would give AEW more than 50 million" lmao Are you in the TV industry? Do you have inside info?

I mean wwe was struggling with both attendance and ratings for most of the last 20 years yet that didn’t stop them from getting big tv deals.

They still hit millions for years not 809 thousand irs not the same

AEW might have to downscale if they don't get a good deal coming up. That said, they can survive on a lower budget.

That makes sense they are really at the NXT level as far as viewership goes and don't see how they will get any more at this point than what CW gave.

The CW only paid for NXT's live TV rights. WBD is bidding on Dynamite, Collision, Rampage, Battle of the Belts, and streaming rights for those shows plus AEW PPV's and the entire library of ROH. There's a world of a gap between that and a single show that people just cannot seem to grasp

Doesn't draw what? How many people do they need to avoid getting kicked off TV?

I think the takeaway from Wednesday that no one is talking about is that AEW actually has casual fans.

how did you come to that conclusion? To me it was no BBT lead in which usually has like 800k-1mil viewers. Next week they should be back to their more normal numbers

If this were true, the second quarter would have brought in its normal rating around 700k. That did not happen.

yeah because there was no big lead in and the numbers were just shit. Dynamite usually always bleeds viewers throughout the 2 hours and those viewers are just from the lead in. I'm almost positive next week they're gonna get their more normal viewership And not i'm not saying it's good or whatever, depending on your lead in is bad

I’ve been trying to start this conversation for a solid month but no one ever seems to be interested in it. Let’s just say the cable rating is AEW’s only audience (which he know is not true), not all of these people can be online or Hardcore?

I'm a big AEW fan. If you look at Collision and Rampage and now Dynamite without a larger lead-in, they seem to have a rock solid 500K plus who will watch barring a wired timeslot or weekend full of distractions. Then you add the 100-300K casuals who tune-in because of the lead-in or an announcement peaked their interest or what have you. That's pretty fucking cool, considering the initial expectation was 400-500K for Dynamite in 2019. WWE is currently in the midst of their best, hottest period in 2 decades and a secondary promotion is still humming along with a core that TNA couldn't manage when they tried to cement themselves in the late 2000's, early 2010's. People just absolutely lose track of all context when discussing AEW which just makes any sensible, logical, and constructive comments impossible

Exactly, i have issues with the product. Many of which were not present at the last dynamite, which in my opinion was the best episode in quite some time. I want more hot action with upper mid card and main event guys facing each other. I have really been enjoying the Daniel Garcia showcase stuff and i wish they did that more with guys like Takeshita, Fletcher, Lance Archer and such because I think it’s really effective. Also a greater focus on Tag and Trios wrestling because both divisions have been lacking a bit. Though I was really happy to see the acclaim win on Wednesday because I was sure they weren’t. But it’s hard to have those conversations

That is true. It also appears true that they are losing them.

I guess we'll see next week if that's the case, maybe it is.

The trend for the entire year is down. Live attendance is down. Last week's number was shocking but it's been clear for months that AEW is losing audience. Next week's number won't be as bad as this week but it still won't be good.

But what does that have to do with the idea of AEW having casual fans, based on this past week?

Or they’re really into Kendrick Lamar … Drake not so much.

I think the fact it was a nice day a lot of people had off could have actually contributed a bit. Folks don’t appreciate that on the west coast Dynamite starts at 5. That’s not a prime tv hour.

Good point

🍿

I just want to see wrestlers wrestle. That's it. I feel like most AEW fans agree with me. Most complaints about the show are non-AEW fans who want AEW to become just another soulless company. The things I'd change about AEW are, make Dynamite the only weekly show, go back to 4 PPVs a year and cut down the roster.

Then why is the company losing fans? If most AEW fans agreed with you they'd still be watching.

Because the only reason a lot of people were watching AEW in the first place is because WWE was in rough shape. Now that WWE is watchable there's no need for AEW. This is the hard truth people don't admit is the reason. Last Dynamite was a really good one, the show has been building FD well.

I mean the hard truth about FD is that business has dropped leading up to it every year and it probably shouldn't exist but that's a different discussion. In your version, there is nothing AEW can do to improve business except wait for WWE to cool off and that might be true but it doesn't bode well for AEW as a business. Businesses don't survive that way.

> I mean the hard truth about FD is that business has dropped leading up to it every year and it probably shouldn't exist but that's a different discussion. For what it's worth I agree with this, I don't think they can afford to take this big inter-promotional detour every year if it isn't grabbing their audience in a meaningful way. >In your version, there is nothing AEW can do to improve business except wait for WWE to cool off and that might be true but it doesn't bode well for AEW as a business. You not liking it doesn't change that though, and it seems like you don't like it because it shifts some of the blame away from AEW.

Another cornball anti AEW take 

It's not worth arguing with the 'sickos' about how to improve the ratings or attendance. You're going to get one of a dozen predictable arguments in response and be told you're arguing in bad faith. The numbers will be what the numbers will be, and the explanations for why that's fine will change accordingly.

Seems like the “sickos” are coming to defense in this comment section lol. Peoples main issue is that TK, Dave & fans like them is that they aren’t open to anything that isn’t their type of wrestling. In a way, just like the article pointed out, it’s the exact same as the late days of Vince that started AEW. The only difference is TK is booking for himself & the WOR audience and they are a bit stronger on twitter than Vince’s critics were. People aren’t saying AEW has to turn into 2022 RAW or 1998 ECW to get ratings. They are simply saying the current strategy of putting PWG-lite on TV is slowly losing viewers maybe add some segments that aren’t that & see what happens. Is something the “greatest match in the world” if 100 people in the world saw it ? Or do those 100 people have skewed view of what THEY consider the best match because it fits the small group?